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Humanist
2013-01-22, 18:33
As stated in the quoted bit, it is ordinarily directed at someone who is misbehaving. That is my understanding.


There is a word in my dialect that I think I may have come across. I could not find it in the Aramaic sources so I am a bit uncertain of its origin. I will probably butcher the transliteration, but it is something along the lines of "meš-meš-ookh." Basically, when you tell it to someone, you are saying that you will soon be "putting them in order."


Again, from the list I am attempting to generate.

SURETH
ašuputa
[Religion]
English : snake charming , use of magic , enchantment

ašupa
[Professions]
English : a charmer , an enchanter , one who uses sorcery or witchcraft , a wizard , a snake-charmer

'špa
[Human → Hygiene]
English : (intransitive verb) : 1) to clear / become clear , to become clarified , to become free from foul matter , to become clean ; 2) to become simple / plain / more comprehensible / easier

išupiia
[Religion]
English : a charm , words spoken in the practice of magic , an enchantment


AKKADIAN
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/asipu__.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/asiputu_.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/isippu_.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/isipputu_.jpg


http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/handschar1/masmassu1_.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/handschar1/masmassu2_.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/handschar1/masmassu3_.jpg


SUMERIAN
šub to (let) fall, be felled, fell; to throw down, away; to forsake, abandon, dismiss; to give up, leave off; to remove from (-ta-)
šuba(ZA.MÚŠ), šúba(ZA.MÙŠ), šùba(MÙŠ.ZA or MÙŠxZA) bright, shining, pure; multicolored
su(b), su-ub, sub, sub6(TAG) to rub, wipe, scrub, polish; to reap; to smear on (ASJ 11, 213; 8, 12); to suck, suckle
išib incantation priest (< Akk. āšipu)
muš snake, serpent
mùš, múš countenance, appearance, aspect; halo, aura; (a kind of crown); temple base or emplacement (George, AV Black 113)
mas-su, mas-sù leader, chief; councillor (massû)


I must respectfully disagree with the "disappear virtually without trace" bit below. We became Jews/Christians. The words, however, I believe, may remain, in some form, in our vernacular (see above).

Ancient Babylonian Medicine: Theory and Practice
Markham J. Geller
2010
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h464/handschar1/disappear.jpg

Humanist
2013-01-23, 10:08
A favorite YouTube clip I have posted before. :) Skip to about the 1 minute mark. It is interesting to note the mix of Mesopotamian, Greek, and Persian cultures.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPc6Gn9-zs

SURETH
mšḥ
[Humanities → Language]
English : 1) to anoint ; 2) to measure


AKKADIAN (BABYLONIAN)
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/masahu.jpg

Humanist
2013-01-23, 19:32
I do not know what to make of this Sureth word. I am unsure of the meaning in the referenced Standard Babylonian term, "naharmumu."

Please note that "TN.-Epic" = Tukulti-Ninurta Epic

Wikipedia


Tukulti-Ninurta Epic is an Assyrian epic written in Akkadian describing and glorifying the wars and conquests of the Assyrian king Tukulti-Ninurta I against the Babylonian king Kashtiliash IV during the Kassite dynasty. Though in principle successful (the Assyrians kidnapped the statue of Babylon's city’s god, Marduk), due to Babylonian rebellions and the interference of Elam, Assur had to return the city to the Kassites. It can therefore be considered as a form of propaganda."


Tukulti-Ninurta I (meaning: "my trust is in [the warrior god] Ninurta"; reigned 1243–1207 BC) was a king of Assyria.

He succeeded Shalmaneser I, his father, as king and won a major victory against the Hittites at the Battle of Nihriya in the first half of his reign. Tukulti-Ninurta I later defeated Kashtiliash IV, the Kassite king and captured the rival city of Babylon to ensure full Assyrian supremacy over Mesopotamia. Kashtiliash IV was captured and deported to Assyria. After a rebellion in Babylon, he plundered Babylon's temples, and later began to build a new city, Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. However, his sons rebelled against him and besieged him in his new city. During the siege, he was murdered. One of them, Ashur-nadin-apli, would succeed him on the throne.

After his death, the Assyrian Empire fell into decline. The Tukulti-Ninurta Epic describes the war between Tukulti-Ninurta I and Kashtiliash IV.[1]

SURETH
šumara
[Government]
English : 1) an inhibition , a restraint , an embargo , a prohibition , a limitation / control ; 2) mental : a reservation , a suppression , a scruple (?) / qualms (?) ; 3) unfaithfulness , disloyalty ; 4) pouring out , spilling / slopping , blood : shedding (?)
Dialect : Urmiah


AKKADIAN
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/sumaru.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/naharmumu.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/samaru_B.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/samaru_-1.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/subaru.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/subaru2.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/subarru.jpg


SUMERIAN
šúm (SUM) to give; to pay (in commodities or a combination of a metal and commodity) The standard older reading sum may also be correct in some contexts; see Zgoll, AOAT 246, 311.

šub to (let) fall, be felled, fell; to throw down, away; to forsake, abandon, dismiss; to give up, leave off; to remove from (-ta-)

šu - ba(r), šu - bar to release, set free; to forget (the original root is /badr/; cf. šu - bad and see Krecher, AV Kutscher 111-117)

subur, šubur servant, slave (< gentilic 'Subarian'; form with /š/ is late) (Civil, AV Biggs 30; Gelb, AV Diakonoff 89f.)

sám, šám price (cf. sa10 and see discussion in Steinkeller, Sale Documents 153-155)

šum to slaughter


On the subject of the Persepolis Tablets:


Ŝumaru of PF 439 and PF 440 is a place-name of great importance. The name also occurs in Fort 5902 and, in a slightly different form, Ŝumair, in Fort 2512. It often stood for a hill and it is possible that originally it was the hill of Babil (Kuh-e Khwaja) in Drangiana in Seistan. The hill may also mean a ziggurat and Babylon or Babil which was famous for its ziggurat may also have been Meru of the Indian texts.

Source: http://www.ranajitpal.com/ranajitpal-tablets.htm


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/pf439_440.jpg

Source: Persepolis Fortification Tablets (R. T. Hallock) University of Chicago, Oriental Institute

Wikipedia


Persepolis Administrative Archives

Persepolis Fortification Archive (PFA), also known as Persepolis Fortification Tablets (PFT, PF), is a fragment of Achaemenid administrative records of receipt, taxation, transfer, storage of food crops (cereals, fruit), livestock (sheep and goats, cattle, poultry), food products (flour, breads and other cereal products, beer, wine, processed fruit, oil, meat), and byproducts (animal hides) in the region around Persepolis (larger part of modern Fars), and their redistribution to gods, royal family, courtiers, priests, religious officiants, administrators, travelers, workers, artisans, and livestock.[2]

But before Persepolis archives could have offered any clues to the better understanding of the Achaemenid history, the clay tablets, mostly written in a late dialect of Elamite, an extremely difficult language still imperfectly understood, had to be deciphered.[6] So, in 1935, Iranian authorities loaned the Persepolis Fortification Archive to the Oriental Institute for research and publication. The archive arrived in Chicago in 1936 and has been under studies since 1937.[2] It was not until 1969 when Richard Hallock published his magisterial edition of 2087 Elamite tablets Persepolis Fortification Tablets leading to the renaissance of Achaemenid studies in 1970s. The long term project spanning over seven (7) decades is far from completion.[7]

....

Persepolis Fortification Archive covers sixteen (16) years, from 509 to 493 BCE, from regnal year 13th to regnal year 28th of Darius I the Great. The chronological distribution of the archive is uneven with largest concentration from regnal years 22nd and 23rd.[17]

Humanist
2013-09-08, 23:01
The lexical comparison is being continued here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?274-Lexical-Comparison-of-vernacular-Syriac-%28-quot-Sureth-quot-%29-Akkadian-and-other-languages/page19).

Aksu Tigris
2014-11-03, 16:31
Even if the Assyrians were Babylonians who settled in the north, the Babylonians were originally from the north anyway, so we're talking about back migrations.

Source? proof? please

Aksu Tigris
2014-11-03, 16:37
Hi Wojciech,

I will reply to your post in greater depth later, but in the meantime, this is the opinion of Dr. Roy King, regarding the relationship between Assyrian and Armenian Y-DNA:
Armenian DNA Project Page -

Dr. Roy King sampled ~100 Assyrian men. To date, only the Assyrian J1 haplogroup results have been published. I sincerely hope he publishes the entire set soon!

bro what this guy said is hard to believe for me, i saw allot of assyrians and armenians the last 10 years of my life since where i reside we have allot of armenians and assyrians, and i can ASSURE you that we assyrians can see the diferenceb etween assyrians and armenians just by looking at one, even armenians themselves never confused an assyrian for an armenian, the diference between those 2 is flagrant physically, the guy tested 100 assyrian man you said? he need more, why is it that me and other people directly spot an armenian and never confuse him with an assyrian and vice versa if what this gux say is true? we assyrians are akkadian semites

Aksu Tigris
2014-11-03, 17:01
"turkish acholars" claims sumerian ancestry? HAHAHAHAH and what are their proofs then can you show us? its not enough to make claims you must show evidence

The Apple
2014-11-03, 22:24
bro what this guy said is hard to believe for me, i saw allot of assyrians and armenians the last 10 years of my life since where i reside we have allot of armenians and assyrians, and i can ASSURE you that we assyrians can see the diferenceb etween assyrians and armenians just by looking at one, even armenians themselves never confused an assyrian for an armenian, the diference between those 2 is flagrant physically, the guy tested 100 assyrian man you said? he need more, why is it that me and other people directly spot an armenian and never confuse him with an assyrian and vice versa if what this gux say is true? we assyrians are akkadian semites

I hate to regurgitate what has been said here numerous times, but genotype does not equal phenotype, meaning that appearance does not equal genetics.



Semitic isn't a race and we're an amalgamation of many peoples who inhabited the region before.

Awale
2014-11-03, 22:31
I hate to regurgitate what has been said here numerous times, but genotype does not equal phenotype, meaning that appearance does not equal genetics.



Semitic isn't a race and we're an amalgamation of many peoples who inhabited the region before.

Indeed and systematically in nearly every study I've seen both groups in; Assyrians are quite similar to Armenians but even Levantines and Iraqi "Arabs" if you discount their minor African admixture are also very similar to Armenians, Azeris, Georgians and so on. This is ultimately because despite their Caucasus location (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Caucasus_regions_map2.png): Caucasians are ultimately about as Middle Eastern as your average Assyrian and from what I've noticed they form a sort of "Northern ME" group with Levantines, Persians, Kurds, Mesopotamians, Turks and the like.

Differences lie i.e in the Caucasian groups being more ANE influenced than the rest, Iranians being more Gedrosian (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/full/nature08365.html) influenced and Muslim Levantines and Mesopotamians being slightly African (East African & Niger-Congo) influenced among other examples.

ZephyrousMandaru
2014-11-04, 00:44
bro what this guy said is hard to believe for me, i saw allot of assyrians and armenians the last 10 years of my life since where i reside we have allot of armenians and assyrians, and i can ASSURE you that we assyrians can see the diferenceb etween assyrians and armenians just by looking at one, even armenians themselves never confused an assyrian for an armenian, the diference between those 2 is flagrant physically, the guy tested 100 assyrian man you said? he need more, why is it that me and other people directly spot an armenian and never confuse him with an assyrian and vice versa if what this gux say is true? we assyrians are akkadian semites

I know you're a new member Aksu, but the posts you're quoting is almost three years old and much of the information being cited may be out of date.

Most, if not all the sampled Assyrian men are East Assyrians of the Nestorian branch, who I suspect have become more "Armenian-like" in recent times. But really, most of the shared ancestry between Armenians and Assyrians can be traced back to ancient groups such as the Hurrians. So the apparent extreme similarity between Assyrians and Armenians is partially due to sampling bias. If more Chaldean Catholic and Syriac Orthodox Assyrians there would undoubtedly be more differences between Assyrian and Armenian Y-DNA diversity.

Members of the Syriac Orthodox church in particular have a rather high incidence of J1c3 (with little to no J1*) and E1b1b.

The distinctions between Assyrian and Armenian genetic substructure are better gauged at the Autosomal level. Assyrian biogeographical origins firmly pinpoint them to Southern Iraq (Babylonia) along with the Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews. Armenians trace their ancestry, back to the Armenian Highlands in Eastern Anatolia. So while Armenians are quite genetically similar to Assyrians, they're not identical. In fact, Armenians are at about the same degree of similarity to Assyrians as the Druze are.

Eurogenes SPA Plot

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8278/eurogenesreplottedmdsme.jpg

As for Assyrians originating in the Caucasus region based upon them scoring high frequencies of the Caucasus and/or West Asian component, that assertion is patently false. Here's why, Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, much in the same way European Jews are, the modality of the West Asian/Caucasus is reflective of high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. Caucasians are a Middle Eastern daughter population that arose in the Fertile Crescent, and there's genetic and archaeological evidence to support this. Furthermore, the West Asian/Caucasus component is very similar to Mediterranean and Southwest Asian, with the exception that this compoennt contains ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) admixture, that's also the reason why it clusters closely to the "North European" component.

If you removed the ANE admixture from the Caucasus component, it would be plot more closely to Mediterranean and Southwest Asian. This is because the Caucasus component was at some point similar to those components prior its formation. Without ANE, the Caucasus component probably wouldn't even exist. In fact, Lezgins can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin, uniparental data notwithstanding.

Awale
2014-11-04, 00:51
Without ANE, the Caucasus component probably wouldn't even exist.

It would probably look completely indistinguishable from Med and SW Asian or even appear to be/ look entirely like one of the two components (I suspect Mediterranean).

The Apple
2014-11-04, 02:21
I know you're a new member Aksu, but the posts you're quoting is almost three years old and much of the information being cited may be out of date.

Most, if not all the sampled Assyrian men are East Assyrians of the Nestorian branch, who I suspect have become more "Armenian-like" in recent times. But really, most of the shared ancestry between Armenians and Assyrians can be traced back to ancient groups such as the Hurrians. So the apparent extreme similarity between Assyrians and Armenians is partially due to sampling bias. If more Chaldean Catholic and Syriac Orthodox Assyrians there would undoubtedly be more differences between Assyrian and Armenian Y-DNA diversity.

Members of the Syriac Orthodox church in particular have a rather high incidence of J1c3 (with little to no J1*) and E1b1b.

The distinctions between Assyrian and Armenian genetic substructure are better gauged at the Autosomal level. Assyrian biogeographical origins firmly pinpoint them to Southern Iraq (Babylonia) along with the Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews. Armenians trace their ancestry, back to the Armenian Highlands in Eastern Anatolia. So while Armenians are quite genetically similar to Assyrians, they're not identical. In fact, Armenians are at about the same degree of similarity to Assyrians as the Druze are.

Eurogenes SPA Plot

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8278/eurogenesreplottedmdsme.jpg

As for Assyrians originating in the Caucasus region based upon them scoring high frequencies of the Caucasus and/or West Asian component, that assertion is patently false. Here's why, Caucasians are a highly genetically drifted population, much in the same way European Jews are, the modality of the West Asian/Caucasus is reflective of high degrees of endogamy induced inbreeding. Caucasians are a Middle Eastern daughter population that arose in the Fertile Crescent, and there's genetic and archaeological evidence to support this. Furthermore, the West Asian/Caucasus component is very similar to Mediterranean and Southwest Asian, with the exception that this compoennt contains ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) admixture, that's also the reason why it clusters closely to the "North European" component.

If you removed the ANE admixture from the Caucasus component, it would be plot more closely to Mediterranean and Southwest Asian. This is because the Caucasus component was at some point similar to those components prior its formation. Without ANE, the Caucasus component probably wouldn't even exist. In fact, Lezgins can be modeled as being 80% Near Eastern + 20% ANE, which to me serves as independent confirmation of their Near Eastern origin, uniparental data notwithstanding.

I see that you are conveniently leaving out the other map that is associated with this one that pushes Armenians down into Upper Mesopotamia just as Assyrians have been pushed into Lower Mesopotamia. So, you are being disingenuous about them plotting in the Armenian Highlands according to the data used in this map.

ZephyrousMandaru
2014-11-04, 03:55
I see that you are conveniently leaving out the other map that is associated with this one that pushes Armenians down into Upper Mesopotamia just as Assyrians have been pushed into Lower Mesopotamia. So, you are being disingenuous about them plotting in the Armenian Highlands according to the data used in this map.

I'm not "conveniently" leaving out anything, the only reason why I'm using this map is because it's a higher resolution map, so you could better visualize where exactly the populations are on the map plot, and because it actually has the Semitic-speaking populations (Iraqi Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans) which we're actually closest to. The other map only features Indo-European populations, most of which aren't even close to us genetically aside from one. What would you rather show, a low quality map with one relevant population or a high quality map with two or more relevant populations?

Just FYI, I wasn't the one who created these plots genius. But, if you want more data, all you need to do is view the collective population averages of Assyrians compared to all other populations and it will consistently show that Assyrians are closer to the Semitic-populations I listed above in parentheses. Furthermore, if more Armenians from the Caucasus were included, who have have been shown to have considerable shift northward compared to the ones from the West than they would plot in the Armenian Highlands.

It's called sampling bias, look it up.

The Apple
2014-11-04, 04:55
The topic was about Armenians and you conveniently didn't supply the other map that includes them. You also said that Armenians claim to descend from the Armenian Highlands when that is of no relavence. Assyrians claim to come from from Upper Mesopotamia, yet that map paints a different picture. So if you're going to post something that appears distorted include that the other population at hand is as well. And BS on wanting to show a clear image. This isn't the only one you could have posted.

I know you didn't. Doesn't change the fact that you are implicating a disassociation with Armenians(not the first time you've done it by the way) in favor of being closer to Levantines(Druze) which I'd like to see proof of. According to the other map that goes with this one, we are still closer to Armenians than Levantines.

There are more Western Armenians than Eastern ones, and the Eastern ones have mixed with the Western ones since the genocide, so I highly doubt that it will create such a large shift to pull Armenians away from Assyrians. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't even know their own history to know about the situation of a neighboring population.

I know what sampling bias is... and in both cases(Assyrians and Armenians), the outcome wouldn't be that different.

[Nestorian and Protestant] Assyrians, [Catholic] Assyrians, and [Orthodox] Assyrians are about equal in population according to church adherence, so the "northern" shift apparently caused by "Nestorian and Protestant" Assyrians would only be shifted westward because of "Orthodox" Assyrians and a little south because of "Catholic" Assyrians. Do you have the actual amount of people from each church, or are you just assuming there are more "Nestorian and Protestant" Assyrians in the study?

In regards to Armenians, there are Western Armenians, Eastern Armenians, Hemshin, Crypto-Armenians, and one more type that I cannot think of at the moment. You would have a population pushed toward Western Armenians of you included all, so you're wrong in that they would be pushed further away.

ZephyrousMandaru
2014-11-04, 07:49
The topic was about Armenians and you conveniently didn't supply the other map that includes them. You also said that Armenians claim to descend from the Armenian Highlands when that is of no relavence. Assyrians claim to come from from Upper Mesopotamia, yet that map paints a different picture. So if you're going to post something that appears distorted include that the other population at hand is as well. And BS on wanting to show a clear image. This isn't the only one you could have posted.

It is of relevance, when the Armenians themselves have a historical, linguistic and genetic connection to the geographical area they're from. Namely, the Armenian Highlands. Which can be and has been demonstrated, the Eurogenes SPA reveals where the an ethnic group(s) ethnogenesis occurred before their ancestors migrated elsewhere. In other words, the SPA pinpoints your ancient, prehistorical ancestry not your recent ancestry.


I know you didn't. Doesn't change the fact that you are implicating a disassociation with Armenians(not the first time you've done it by the way) in favor of being closer to Levantines(Druze) which I'd like to see proof of. According to the other map that goes with this one, we are still closer to Armenians than Levantines.

I'm not disassociating Armenians and Assyrians, just recognizing the simple fact that they're not as genetically identical as they were once portrayed to be 3 to 4 years ago. Also, I never once claimed Assyrians are closer to the Druze than they are to Armenians dumb ass. But since your reading comprehension skills are lacking, let me add some clarification. What I meant was, in terms of Armenians and their genetic similarity to Assyrians as a whole, compared to Eastern Mizrahim Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans, they are almost as similar to us as we are to the Druze. Although Armenians are slightly closer in terms of genetic distance to us than the Druze, though not by much.

Obviously, we're closer to Armenians than most of the populations displayed on this plot. However, the other map doesn't include Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews, who we're closer to than we are to Armenians much to your chagrin.

Here's are my MDLP K23b results


Population
Amerindian -
Ancestral_Altaic 2.11%
South_Central_Asian 18.08%
Arctic -
South_Indian 0.36%
Australoid 1.04%
Austronesian 0.06%
Caucasian 44.03%
Archaic_Human -
East_African -
East_Siberian -
European_Early_Farmers 11.42%
Khoisan 0.69%
Melano_Polynesian 0.18%
Archaic_African 0.30%
Near_East 17.19%
North_African 3.84%
Paleo_Siberian 0.65%
African_Pygmy -
South_East_Asian -
Subsaharian -
Tungus-Altaic -
European_Hunters_Gatherers -

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Assyrian_Iraqi @ 1.262910
2 Iraqi_Chaldean @ 3.829951
3 Jew_Tat @ 5.978452
4 Iraqi_Jew @ 6.468532
5 Iranian_Jew @ 6.589534
6 Kurd_Jew @ 6.990664
7 Uzbekistani_Jew @ 7.049000
8 Iraqi_Mandean @ 7.470135
9 Georgian_Jew @ 7.731777
10 Turk_Adana @ 8.038953
11 Turk_Kayseri @ 8.938130
12 Assyrian_Arzni @ 9.292991
13 Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.495876
14 Lebanese_Druze @ 9.736648
15 Armenian_Yerevan @ 10.691178
16 Armenian @ 10.876385
17 Lebanese @ 10.905150
18 Kurd_North @ 11.374497
19 Syrian_Jew @ 11.500642
20 Turk @ 12.097325

MDLP K23b is a very robust calculator and one of the few ADMIXTURE calculators that doesn't suffer from the calculator effect. As you can see, I (as an individual) am slightly closer to the Lebanese_Druze sample compared to the Armenian reference samples, but not significantly.


There are more Western Armenians than Eastern ones, and the Eastern ones have mixed with the Western ones since the genocide, so I highly doubt that it will create such a large shift to pull Armenians away from Assyrians. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't even know their own history to know about the situation of a neighboring population.

I know what sampling bias is... and in both cases(Assyrians and Armenians), the outcome wouldn't be that different.

Oh really now? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1968-Assyrian-Autosomal-DNA-Thread&p=29037&viewfull=1#post29037) I made highlighting and contrasting the pattern of genetic similarity and dissimilarity various Assyrian subgroups had with the three Armenian reference populations that are widely used in these calculators. I'm sure you'll find it rather enlightening.

The "Armenians" reference group from the Behar et al. study contained four heavily "North European" admixed individuals who were later removed before they were added to the datasets of these calculators. Even still, the differences between these Armenians and Assyrians (including Chaldeans and Syriacs) is noteworthy.


[Nestorian and Protestant] Assyrians, [Catholic] Assyrians, and [Orthodox] Assyrians are about equal in population according to church adherence, so the "northern" shift apparently caused by "Nestorian and Protestant" Assyrians would only be shifted westward because of "Orthodox" Assyrians and a little south because of "Catholic" Assyrians. Do you have the actual amount of people from each church, or are you just assuming there are more "Nestorian and Protestant" Assyrians in the study?

In regards to Armenians, there are Western Armenians, Eastern Armenians, Hemshin, Crypto-Armenians, and one more type that I cannot think of at the moment. You would have a population pushed toward Western Armenians of you included all, so you're wrong in that they would be pushed further away.

I'm not making assumptions about anything, these are inferences that I've made based upon the data I've seen on Chaldean, Syriac and Nestorian Assyrians. These Assyrian subgroup differ more than just in terms of church denomination. For one, uniparental data in terms of Y-DNA is different as I mentioned earlier in this post. With regard to genetic structure, Chaldeans and Syriacs tend to be less West Asian and more Mediterranean and Southwest Asian. They're actually much closer to Iraqi Jews, Iraqi Mandaeans and Levantines than we are. And in some cases, even more so than Armenians.

The Assyrian_D reference contains mostly Nestorian Assyrians, don't believe me? Here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?86-Dienekes-Anthropology-%28Genetics%29-and-Dodecad-Project-Thread&p=2500&viewfull=1#post2500) are the samples.

Awale
2014-11-04, 09:55
Furthermore, if more Armenians from the Caucasus were included, who have have been shown to have considerable shift northward compared to the ones from the West than they would plot in the Armenian Highlands.

Where are the Armenian samples in Gamba et al and Lizaridis et al from? They seem to plot more southward and away from other Caucasians where they overlap with Turks & Iranians whilst remaining pretty close by to groups like the Druze and Levantines as a whole. You're saying if another subset of Armenians were introduced they'd begin to shift toward where Georgians & North Ossetians and the like are?



Lizaridis:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fc2W-6tR-HA/Urigqts3hwI/AAAAAAAAJbg/hqZiV1TOGgc/s1600/europe.png


.


.


Gamba:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xPGV13M4lSM/VEaknJoP-jI/AAAAAAAAJ0I/XmX-S48tr2A/s1600/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

The Apple
2014-11-05, 05:51
It is of relevance, when the Armenians themselves have a historical, linguistic and genetic connection to the geographical area they're from. Namely, the Armenian Highlands. Which can be and has been demonstrated, the Eurogenes SPA reveals where the an ethnic group(s) ethnogenesis occurred before their ancestors migrated elsewhere. In other words, the SPA pinpoints your ancient, prehistorical ancestry not your recent ancestry.

Lying Zeph? tsk-tsk. You know as well as I do that they don't plot in the Armenian Highlands/Plateau according to the other map.

I found the map:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img829/6908/wl67.jpg

Here's the Armenian Highlands/Plateau for someone who is geographically challenged, such as yourself.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Armenian_plateau_%27natural_borders%27_by_H.F.B._L ynch%2C_1901.jpg

Clearly they plot in Upper Mesopotamia/Assyria.
http://www.worldology.com/Iraq/images/roman_rule1.jpg


I'm not disassociating Armenians and Assyrians, just recognizing the simple fact that they're not as genetically identical as they were once portrayed to be 3 to 4 years ago. Also, I never once claimed Assyrians are closer to the Druze than they are to Armenians dumb ass. But since your reading comprehension skills are lacking, let me add some clarification. What I meant was, in terms of Armenians and their genetic similarity to Assyrians as a whole, compared to Eastern Mizrahim Jews and Iraqi Mandaeans, they are almost as similar to us as we are to the Druze. Although Armenians are slightly closer in terms of genetic distance to us than the Druze, though not by much.
Apparently you have a problem with being unbiased. If you're going to "average out" Assyrians, you would have to do the same with Armenians since they have populations that are not fairly represented and I can assure you that they would shift more south due to the crypto's. Once again, I don't expect someone who doesn't know there own history to understand a neighboring populations.


Obviously, we're closer to Armenians than most of the populations displayed on this plot. However, the other map doesn't include Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews, who we're closer to than we are to Armenians much to your chagrin.
I don't mind being close to them at all. They are fellow Mesopotamians so I kind of feel like you stating something obvious for no reason. You have made constant implications that we are not as close to Armenians as we are to Levantines, as if we are magically going to shift so much more gradually toward them if the testing was evenly distributed.




Oh really now? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1968-Assyrian-Autosomal-DNA-Thread&p=29037&viewfull=1#post29037) I made highlighting and contrasting the pattern of genetic similarity and dissimilarity various Assyrian subgroups had with the three Armenian reference populations that are widely used in these calculators. I'm sure you'll find it rather enlightening.

You mean the test you did? How exactly can I trust it? The comments by Humanist below don't seem exactly enthusiastic about the results.


The Assyrian_D reference contains mostly Nestorian Assyrians, don't believe me? Here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?86-Dienekes-Anthropology-%28Genetics%29-and-Dodecad-Project-Thread&p=2500&viewfull=1#post2500) are the samples.

It's unfortunate that that map does not have the Assyrian average pinpointed as well. You would easily be able to give a rough estimate by adding a few more people to the Orthodox and Catholic groups.(even though we don't know the population size of each group, so an equal distribution isn't necessarily correct.)

ZephyrousMandaru
2014-11-06, 06:03
Lying Zeph? tsk-tsk. You know as well as I do that they don't plot in the Armenian Highlands/Plateau according to the other map.

I found the map:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img829/6908/wl67.jpg

Here's the Armenian Highlands/Plateau for someone who is geographically challenged, such as yourself.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Armenian_plateau_%27natural_borders%27_by_H.F.B._L ynch%2C_1901.jpg

Clearly they plot in Upper Mesopotamia/Assyria.
http://www.worldology.com/Iraq/images/roman_rule1.jpg

Holy shit, you're retarded, do I have to spell it out for you? Read the post carefully this time.


It is of relevance, when the Armenians themselves have a historical, linguistic and genetic connection to the geographical area they're from. Namely, the Armenian Highlands. Which can be and has been demonstrated, the Eurogenes SPA reveals where the an ethnic group(s) ethnogenesis occurred before their ancestors migrated elsewhere. In other words, the SPA pinpoints your ancient, prehistorical ancestry not your recent ancestry.

The Armenian samples being used here are mostly Armenians who are originally from Eastern Anatolia, and because of that, it's anchoring their alleged homeland closer to Northern Mesopotamia. When it should probably be plot further northward had more Armenian samples from the Caucasus were included, again when a population's origins span multiple geographical regions, this is going to be reflected in their genetic structures.

Genetic variation is clinally distributed, that means that it is genetically continuous, and connects one population to the next according to geography. This is why Northern, Central and Southern Italians all differ at the intra-variational level. It's the same reason why Armenians from the Caucasus gravitate more towards Caucasians populations, while Armenians from Eastern Anatolia shift more towards Middle Eastern populations.

There is an Armenian reference set from some study that I can't remember the name of, which included Armenians from Georgia and these Armenians were somewhat distinct from the Armenians from the Yunusbayev study and the Armenian volunteers from the Dodecad Ancestry Project. Furthermore, SPA only shows where your ethnogenesis occurred.

The recent ancestry of Assyrians plots them much further north, there's several reasons for this which I will not expound upon here.



Apparently you have a problem with being unbiased. If you're going to "average out" Assyrians, you would have to do the same with Armenians since they have populations that are not fairly represented and I can assure you that they would shift more south due to the crypto's. Once again, I don't expect someone who doesn't know there own history to understand a neighboring populations.

Apparently, you have a problem with reading comprehension, because I don't how many times I've had to reiterate the same basic information to you that anyone with a fraction of brain cell would have already understood by now. Don't you think that if I actually had all the Armenian reference populations, that I would have already done so? In case you didn't realize this, I actually need more Armenian samples from the Caucasus region in order calculate it.

Also, it isn't my responsibility to placate the psychological insecurities relating to your identity. It's not my fault that the compiled data thus far has changed the narrative.


I don't mind being close to them at all. They are fellow Mesopotamians so I kind of feel like you stating something obvious for no reason. You have made constant implications that we are not as close to Armenians as we are to Levantines, as if we are magically going to shift so much more gradually toward them if the testing was evenly distributed.

It wouldn't matter if you did mind or not, Science doesn't care about how you feel in terms of who your closest genetic kin are. It ascertains your genotype data, and compares to a wide array of global populations, and deduces results based on the most comprehensive tools utilizing complex mathematical formulas in clear, unambiguous detail.

Again, you continue to invoke this straw man against me, I never once claimed that Levantines are closer to us. However, with individual results, it's different. Some Assyrians will be closer to Armenians than Levantines, others will be closer to Levantines than Armenians. I have seen this for myself, time and again using various ADMIXTURE calculators on GED Match. It's usually Chaldeans and Syriac Assyrians that are closer to Levantine.

Why? Because these Assyrians have slightly less West Asian/Caucasus and slightly more Mediterranean and Southwest Asian. This might not seem like a significant difference, but when it is illustrated on an MDS or PCA plot, it's much more evident. This can be more easily visualize in the Globe13 spreadsheet, just use the Dodecad Project IDs as your reference.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=0


You mean the test you did? How exactly can I trust it? The comments by Humanist below don't seem exactly enthusiastic about the results.

You don't have to trust, and that's the beauty of repeatability.

CHALDEANS
M660139
M140307
M154510

The rest you can find on GED Match, all of the other matches will of Nestorian Assyrians including myself. You can try any calculator you want for comparison if you don't believe me, I guarantee they'll exhibit the same pattern as the others. I not tamper with the data at all, I simply input the ADMIXTURE values for Dodecad K12b into the R version of Dodecad Oracle and these are the results that were computed. If don't believe me, feel free to do this yourself.


It's unfortunate that that map does not have the Assyrian average pinpointed as well. You would easily be able to give a rough estimate by adding a few more people to the Orthodox and Catholic groups.(even though we don't know the population size of each group, so an equal distribution isn't necessarily correct.)

The average would be in North-Central Iraq (If more Syriacs and Chaldeans were included), those their recent origins. Their ancient origins lie further Southeast of that (in Historical Babylonia). A more equitable sampling strategy would minimize ascertainment bias, there is regional genetic variability that isn't being accounted for her. And when you include a population from the same group, but one that resides in a different region that's going to have an accumulative effect on the entire reference sample.

The Apple
2014-11-09, 21:55
Listen dumbass, this is what you originally states:

The distinctions between Assyrian and Armenian genetic substructure are better gauged at the Autosomal level. Assyrian biogeographical origins firmly pinpoint them to Southern Iraq (Babylonia) along with the Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews. Armenians trace their ancestry, back to the Armenian Highlands in Eastern Anatolia. So while Armenians are quite genetically similar to Assyrians, they're not identical. In fact, Armenians are at about the same degree of similarity to Assyrians as the Druze are.

You made a bad comparison. You should have either said,

"Assyrian biogeographical origins firmly pinpoint them to Southern Iraq (Babylonia) along with the Iraqi Mandaeans and Iraqi Jews, while Armenians biogeographical origins firmly pinpoint them to Upper Mesopotamia" or "Assyrian trace their ancestry back to Upper Mesopotamia and Assyria, while Armenians trace their ancestry, back to the Armenian Highlands.

You made an unequivocal comparison and fail to see it.

IstenmeyenTuy
2017-02-06, 06:00
Perhaps another Mesopotamian-Indian/Pakistani-European nobility mtDNA link. This time, it is a possible aDNA connection. From a previous post:
Wikipedia:
Dienekes' blog:


Assyrian mtDNA U breakdown:

U
U1a1
U1a3
U1a3
U2e1
U3
U3
U3b
U4
U5
U7
U7
U7
U7
U7
U7
K
K1b1

In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq

Al-Zahery et al.

Neither M nor R2 have been observed in Assyrians. U7, of course, has. Unfortunately, we have only one U7 sample tested at FTDNA. The one Assyrian sample that is tested has a transition at HVR1 locus 16093.

There is one U7 sample listed on Ian Logan's U7 GenBank page with this transition:

AY714004(India) Palanichamy

The FTDNA U7 project has three samples with the transition at 16093:

N96539 Punjabi (Lahore) U7 16093C, 16218T, 16309G, 16318T, 16519C
N12921 India U7 16093C, 16309G, 16318T, 16352C, 16519C
N12396 Nicolosi, Dagata, Italy U7 16093C, 16309G, 16318T, 16519C

The HVR1 mutations for the Assyrian U7 sample match the Nicolosi, Sicilian sample, without either of the additional mutations (see underlined) found in N96539 and N12921.

62118 Assyrian Jacob U7 16093C, 16309G, 16318T, 16519C

Here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA%20U7/default.aspx?section=mtresults

Mine is: 'Cevriye Akagündüz b.1941, Turkey'

What does it mean "ancestral with no extra mutations". Means the centra asia was the origin of the U7? My grandma is yörük, they say they came from Khorasan thousand year ago to west Anatolia.