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EliasAlucard
2009-12-21, 15:51
One of the roots of Roman civilisation has been traced by scientists to western Turkey, confirming an account given more than 2,000 years ago.

Genetics has settled a long- running debate on the origins of the Etruscans, a civilisation that emerged three millennia ago in Italy and profoundly influenced the foundation of the Roman empire.

The study of DNA confirms an account in the 5th century BC by the Greek historian Herodotus that the Etruscan civilisation was founded by seafarers from Turkey.

The Etruscan culture prospered after the 9th century BC in central Italy, and triggered debate for thousands of years among historians and archaeologists.

Now scientists have tracked the DNA passed down from mothers to children in cellular power packs called mitochondria. They confirm a recent and direct genetic input from the near East.Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542903/Genes-prove-Herodotus-right-about-Etruscans.html
In Tuscany as a whole, part of the ancient Etruscan region of Etruria, the Torroni team found 11 minor mitochondrial DNA lineages that occur nowhere else in Europe and are shared only with Near Eastern people. These findings, the teams says, “support a direct and rather recent genetic input from the Near East, a scenario in agreement with the Lydian origin of the Etruscans.”Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/03etruscan.html

Other links:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/DNA-Clears-Up-The-Origin-of-the-Etruscans-57551.shtml

And here's a study, abstract:

The origins of the Etruscans, a non-Indo-European population of preclassical Italy, are unclear. There is broad agreement that their culture developed locally, but the Etruscans’ evolutionary and migrational relationships are largely unknown. In this study, we determined mitochondrial DNA sequences in multiple clones derived from bone samples of 80 Etruscans who lived between the 7th and the 3rd centuries b.c. In the first phase of the study, we eliminated all specimens for which any of nine tests for validation of ancient DNA data raised the suspicion that either degradation or contamination by modern DNA might have occurred. On the basis of data from the remaining 30 individuals, the Etruscans appeared as genetically variable as modern populations. No significant heterogeneity emerged among archaeological sites or time periods, suggesting that different Etruscan communities shared not only a culture but also a mitochondrial gene pool. Genetic distances and sequence comparisons show closer evolutionary relationships with the eastern Mediterranean shores for the Etruscans than for modern Italian populations. All mitochondrial lineages observed among the Etruscans appear typically European or West Asian, but only a few haplotypes were found to have an exact match in a modern mitochondrial database, raising new questions about the Etruscans’ fate after their assimilation into the Roman state.The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/

It should be pointed out, though I'm Assyrian with roots in Anatolia, my highest genetic similarity is with Tuscans, Adygei and Italians (exactly in that order). So who knows, either I descend from ancient Etruscans or they descend from Lydia, like Herodotus said.

Also, in Tuscany, there's slightly more Middle East ancestry than in the rest of Italy:

298

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

This could possibly indicate that I'm a culturally Assyrianised Lydian? Who knows, but it's very interesting nonetheless. Either way, you think Herodotus was right about the Lydian ancestry of the Etruscans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins

voyager
2009-12-22, 13:51
A very recent 2009 survey does not agree with this continuity theory between ancient Etruscans and modern Tuscans.

Link: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msp126

giuggiola
2009-12-22, 20:25
my person belive, is that before etruscans there were local autoctonous inhabitants, i think that today tuscany population might be a mix of the autoctonous ones with some etruscans.

denying that there isn't at least a minimal influence from Asia Minor, is wrong, their culture was very different from the autoctonous italian ones.. it was very progredite.. their religion was an asian one, their rituals were similar to the pompous (idea of the romans) Asiatic ones.
Asia minor was considered a region of pomposity and luxurety

---------- Post added 2009-12-22 at 21:30 ----------

i think the U3 might be the principal spy of an asiatic origin.. since it's found at high frequencies in south western anatolia and the historical etruscan region (low tuscany, Lazio)


there are even today influence on the tuscan culture that could be considered an etruscan heritage: etruscans used to paint scenes of dinner with spicy fowl, spicy fowl are the basis of tuscan cuisine.
there is a very old feast in florence that is thought to be very ancient(florence has ancient etruscan origins too, it was first founded by the etruscans from Fiesole, not by romans), where children use to catch crickets from fields, i read somewhere that in anatolia there was a similar feast where children used to catch squirrels, both sqirrels and cricket are dangerous for the fields

Wojewoda
2009-12-22, 22:15
i think the U3 might be the principal spy of an asiatic origin.. since it's found at high frequencies in south western anatolia and the historical etruscan region (low tuscany, Lazio)

So am I Etruscan now? Great! Which remainds me an old joke about the origins of the name of Etruscans: "eto Russkie". :lol:

voyager
2009-12-23, 18:44
my person belive, is that before etruscans there were local autoctonous inhabitants, i think that today tuscany population might be a mix of the autoctonous ones with some etruscans.

denying that there isn't at least a minimal influence from Asia Minor, is wrong, their culture was very different from the autoctonous italian ones.. it was very progredite.. their religion was an asian one, their rituals were similar to the pompous (idea of the romans) Asiatic ones.
Asia minor was considered a region of pomposity and luxurety

---------- Post added 2009-12-22 at 21:30 ----------

i think the U3 might be the principal spy of an asiatic origin.. since it's found at high frequencies in south western anatolia and the historical etruscan region (low tuscany, Lazio)


there are even today influence on the tuscan culture that could be considered an etruscan heritage: etruscans used to paint scenes of dinner with spicy fowl, spicy fowl are the basis of tuscan cuisine.
there is a very old feast in florence that is thought to be very ancient(florence has ancient etruscan origins too, it was first founded by the etruscans from Fiesole, not by romans), where children use to catch crickets from fields, i read somewhere that in anatolia there was a similar feast where children used to catch squirrels, both sqirrels and cricket are dangerous for the fields

The modern Tuscans certainly have a Middle Eastern strain whether it comes from Anatolia or not.

They even show a slight South Asian influence.

LINK: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2861/liabshervu0.png

EliasAlucard
2009-12-23, 19:09
The modern Tuscans certainly have a Middle Eastern strain whether it comes from Anatolia or not.

They even show a slight South Asian influence.

LINK: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2861/liabshervu0.pngKeep also in mind, the minor Middle East strain in Tuscans, might be even more than that, if you sample the entire region of Tuscany. This is just the 20 or so random individuals Li et al. sampled in the study.

voyager
2009-12-23, 20:28
The original Etruscan heartland was in North Lazio (cities of Tarquinia, Caere, Vulci, Veii, etc) so it would be interesting if that region were also studied for possible Middle Eastern links.

SGT.O
2009-12-24, 12:43
...
Very interesting Elias! :)
Remember that Herodotus wrote he's stories based on oral tradition, so it's not sure if it's a myth or a legend. But don't forget that Herodotus may have right sometimes, recently he was right about the lost army of Cambyses. ;)

Merry Assyrian Christmas to you. :D

Carnby
2009-12-25, 21:53
there is a very old feast in florence that is thought to be very ancient(florence has ancient etruscan origins too, it was first founded by the etruscans from Fiesole, not by romans), where children use to catch crickets from fields, i read somewhere that in anatolia there was a similar feast where children used to catch squirrels, both sqirrels and cricket are dangerous for the fields
Well, squirrels are mammals and crickets are insects...

Teshub
2009-12-26, 01:15
I found this piece of research on the subject:


The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples”, says Professor Piazza. “In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos.”

http://www.physorg.com/news101272605.html

The above results would suggest there was some settlement in Tuscany from Asia Minor and that these settlers could have been the ancestors of the Etruscans.

Graeme
2009-12-27, 12:39
Have you ever thought it was the Romans who were foreign, like the Hellenic Greeks, with their I.E languages. I.E languages are not of European birth, they are from Asia, brought in to Europe in the Bronze Age by immigrants who originated outside of Europe. I know Polako wants to posit I.E languages in Poland because Baltic and Slavic languages are primitive, unsophisticated, backward. Those people probably were the last to enter Europe with their primitive versions of I.E. When the Hellenes got to what they called Greece there were aborigines there called Pelasgians who spoke pre I.E languages. Same with the Romans who took over Rome and Latium from the Etruscans. They came from the north and entered Peninsula Italy and became civilised due to contact with the Etruscans.

For you believers in European originality, everything in Europe can from Asia, mostly from the Middle East: domestic animals, languages, haplogroups, civilisation, farming and your religions. What you refer as Asia Minor is in the Mediterranean, so is the Levantine. Look where the I.E speaking peoples came from: Siberia. So European? Europeans before 10,000 years ago were all black haired, brown skins. So what exactly are you lot going on about.

Herodotus wrote some weird things, and was quite inventive. Did the Silurians really exist or those inventive North African tribes?

By the way, on deCODEme, I am closest to Italians, then Tuscans, then French, then Basques, then Sardinians. I am least closest to Icelanders and Russians. According to the scuttlebutt the Basques and the Sardinians have more Paleolithic Europeans in them than other Europeans. I don't believe that at all, but it is interesting that I am close to them.

Azvarohi
2009-12-27, 14:39
I.E languages are not of European birth, they are from Asia

What do you base that on?


brought in to Europe in the Bronze Age by immigrants who originated outside of Europe.

What do you base that on?


Look where the I.E speaking peoples came from: Siberia.

What do you base that on?


So European? Europeans before 10,000 years ago were all black haired, brown skins.

What do you base that on?

EliasAlucard
2009-12-27, 15:17
Have you ever thought it was the Romans who were foreign, like the Hellenic Greeks, with their I.E languages.The idea did cross my mind, but I have a stronger genetic similarity with Tuscans than I do with Italians, as you can see here:

EliasAlucard's deCODEme results from 23andMe raw data (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=1409)

This is indicative of something. Who knows? Perhaps it means the Tuscans do have recent ancestry within the past 3,000 years from Anatolia? I'm just saying, my results do not contradict Herodotus.

Stygian Cellarius
2009-12-27, 15:41
Have you ever thought it was the Romans who were foreign, like the Hellenic Greeks, with their I.E languages. I.E languages are not of European birth, they are from Asia, brought in to Europe in the Bronze Age by immigrants who originated outside of Europe. I know Polako wants to posit I.E languages in Poland because Baltic and Slavic languages are primitive, unsophisticated, backward. Those people probably were the last to enter Europe with their primitive versions of I.E. When the Hellenes got to what they called Greece there were aborigines there called Pelasgians who spoke pre I.E languages. Same with the Romans who took over Rome and Latium from the Etruscans. They came from the north and entered Peninsula Italy and became civilised due to contact with the Etruscans.

Do you think that there are IE'ists here trying to make Etruscans immigrants in order to claim Italy as a native IE land? I didn't pick up on that at all. Or maybe that's not where you are coming from, but there is definitely some baggage you have brought here to this thread that is not a part of this thread.

Latins and many other Italic peoples were immigrants, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Everyone was depending on how far back we go. I don't think anyone sprouted from Italian soil. But I suppose whether or not we use the words "immigrant" or "autochthones" depends on who was there first. I think the dominant view is that the Etruscans were indigenous, but that's irrelevant. Even if we pretend Latins, Oscans, Umbrians, etc. didn't exist and only the Etruscans occupied Italy. Dialog about their origins would still be valid. No one here is inventing a foreign origin for Etruscans. The ancients did and we are talking about it now because genetic evidence may corroborate Herodotus's Lydian origin. We're not talking about a Japanese origin here, we are talking about a minor relocation from SW Anatolia to Italy. That's not very far. People did move around back then, they didn't stay put forever.

I too believe the Etruscans were Pelasgians. Well, I believe they were part Pelasgian, but I also believe they were a mixed Caucasoid people. Europe had pre-IE blonds and Etruscan art shows both Black haired and Blond haired people. So either they absorbed IE people after they arrived or they absorbed pre-IE blonds before IE arrival.


For you believers in European originality, everything in Europe came from Asia, mostly from the Middle East: domestic animals, languages, haplogroups, civilisation, farming and your religions. What you refer as Asia Minor is in the Mediterranean, so is the Levantine. Look where the I.E speaking peoples came from: Siberia. So European? Europeans before 10,000 years ago were all black haired, brown skins. So what exactly are you lot going on about.

What are you going on about? What conclusion do you draw from all that which should halt thread'ites in their tracks? And what path do you see taken that should be halted? I'm not seeing it.
Are you speaking from an I'm a black haired man against Northern Euro people position? I don't get it.

You seem to have that I've been peeping in Skadi forum and have brought my discomfort with me to ABF attitude. That's a shame, I kinda liked some of your previous posts.

Graeme
2010-03-28, 06:36
Sorry for the late reply. I was just offering a different viewpoint. A lateral point of view different from the heterodoxy based on the writings of Herodotus or some of the Latin Romans.

I am saying the Mediterranean Basin connected all the ancient peoples of Europe, Anatolia, North Africa and the Levantine region of Asia which blurred the genetic differences between them.

Polako
2010-03-28, 07:00
I.E languages are not of European birth, they are from Asia, brought in to Europe in the Bronze Age by immigrants who originated outside of Europe. I know Polako wants to posit I.E languages in Poland because Baltic and Slavic languages are primitive, unsophisticated, backward. Those people probably were the last to enter Europe with their primitive versions of I.E.

The Kurgan theory assumes that the Indo-Europeans were the Yamnaya bands of Ukraine. The other main theory is that the proto-Indo-Europeans were the Corded folk of Central Europe.

Whatever the truth, the suggestion that the proto-Indo-Europeans came from Asia during the Bronze Age makes no sense. I think it must be some sort of internet joke started by someone who doesn't know geography.

The earliest carries of R1a1 we known of from Central Europe (Corded Ware and Urnfield cultures) and far Eastern Europe (Andronovo), were definitely Europid, and most likely light haired and light eyed, so probably North Europid. Even the early R1a1 skeletons from present day China show North European traits.

So the bulk of the Indo-European/R1a1 migration went from west to east, and the furthest east we can put the origins of the Indo-Europeans is present day Ukraine, which is definitely in Europe.

Graeme
2010-03-28, 07:29
You are mixing archaeology with linguistics with Y chromosome haplogroups of contentious age with the presence of Caucasoid people in western and eastern Eurasian with the color of hair and eyes. Europe is itself a concept originating from the I.E speaking Greeks which they, not unusually only applied to themselves. What they considered the Ukraine area, I don't know. They did not like foreigners and called them Barbarians. Asia to me just means the from Anatolia, the eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea and the Urals. The rest, India, China, Japan can go to hell in a hand basket. I don't think the Greeks would have extended their concept of Asia to them.

I am just concerned with linguistics at the moment. When you start chucking in other variables you cannot draw conclusions on the linguistics issues.

Polako
2010-03-28, 08:17
You are mixing archaeology with linguistics with Y chromosome haplogroups of contentious age with the presence of Caucasoid people in western and eastern Eurasian with the color of hair and eyes.

There weren't any fair haired Europids in Asia until they got there from west of the Urals during the Copper and Bronze Ages. Before then, the forest-steppe zone was sparsely populated by Uralic types. This also fits with modern population genetics, which in no way suggest any large non-European influence in Poland.

"On the steppes, c. 2300 BC, systematic agro-pastoralism was spreading far to the east beyond the Ural River, probably in response to the need for metal ores from the Ural mountains in order to manufacture hard bronze weapons. Migrations penetrated deep into the eastern steppes and forests, to areas previously uninhabited or only sparsely populated by hunter-gatherers. Hundreds of new sources of copper ores were located in Kazakhstan, the Altai, and the desert regions of Central Asia. From the Don-Volga to the upper Ural basin, the important bronze production culture of Abashevo was established predominantly in forest-steppe zones. Seams were reached by open quarry or drift mine. Eventually tin deposits, rare in the west, were located as far afield as the upper Irtysh, gold was mined in the Dzungarian Alatau mountains, and, with transition to the Iron Age, bimetallic (bronze and iron) tools began to appear. Widespread demand for valuable metals thus had led to far-flung exploratory prospecting in distant zones. At this time, population movement was no longer in a single direction; initial migration was followed by counter-stream, returning to the place of origin with reports of outlying opportunities and inciting new efforts at exploration and further colonization; lessons learned from novel situations were widely shared across society."

Pita Kelekna, The Politico-Economic Impact of the Horse on Old World Cultures: An Overview, SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS, Number 190, June 2009.

Zupan
2010-03-28, 15:27
I found this piece of research on the subject:


The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples”, says Professor Piazza. “In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos.”

http://www.physorg.com/news101272605.html

The above results would suggest there was some settlement in Tuscany from Asia Minor and that these settlers could have been the ancestors of the Etruscans.

Really interesting.

pinguin
2010-03-28, 15:30
So Romans are Turks.... who would have though that.

Zupan
2010-03-28, 15:31
I know Polako wants to posit I.E languages in Poland because Baltic and Slavic languages are primitive, unsophisticated, backward

Graeme this is your opinion. I find maltese fascinating but if any language is foreign to Europe then it's yours.

Also you should take your time and learn one or two slavic languages + lithuanian (a mix between baltic and slavic) you will then understand how beautiful and harmonic the slavic languages are. I personally like russian, slovak and serbian :)

Graeme
2010-03-30, 08:16
No need to get your nationalistic hackles up and slag some other person's language. It won't change their minds.

You misunderstand. Primitive is good. Why, because it means it is unaffected by other influences which might distort or corrupt or change it for the worse. It means original. How do you think the Basques managed to keep their language when all the peoples surrounding them fell under the influence of I.E languages? I will tell you. They isolated themselves in their mountain valleys and closed themselves off from outside influences. Even I.E languages were themselves affected by the non I.E languages spoken by the mass of the people in Europe before the I.E languages became the norm. Greek in particular was affected by the language of the Pelasgians even though Greek replaced their language. Greek is not primitive and it is further from the original proto I.E languages due to the absorption and assimilation of Pelasgian words. Same with what became Latin. It absorbed and assimilated Etruscan words. Slavic languages in a sense escaped this absorption and assimilation process as the speakers of those languages did not meet a large population of locals speaking their non I.E languages. So Slavic languages are truer to proto I.E roots, which means primitive.

As far as aesthetics, that is up to each person to decide. I like dogs as pets, not cats, you may be opposite or dislike both. It is the same with languages and how they affect the senses. I personally don't like any language other than English. I speak four languages English, Italian, Indonesian and Maltese. I prefer English. I find sibilant sounds common in Slavic tongues dissonant. You obviously love that sound. It grates my ears, but make you think of home, family and mother.

As to what is foreign and what is not, it depends on when you are speaking. Before I.E languages entered Europe, a Greek concept by the way, I.E languages were foreign. People in Europe spoke many languages that were not I.E languages. Now all but Basque is extinct. Also Maltese is not foreign in Malta. Polish is foreign in Malta. Italian is foreign is Greece, and Greek foreign in Sweden. All languages have territorial limitations. Maltese has been spoken in Malta since the 9th century. I wonder how many languages can even trace back that far. English of the 9th century would be totally incomprehensible to English speakers today, and sound and perceived as foreign. I wonder what Polish, Russian, Serbo-Croat of the 9th century would sound like today. From a historical point of view, most of those Slavic languages of the Balkans only made their presence felt in the 6th century. So what languages did those Balkan people speak before the Slavic tongues came into the Balkans?

Do you know why Maltese people still speak Maltese, a language derived from Siculo-Arabic of Italy. It is because no one else understands it. Neither Italian or Arab, Greek or Russian, English or French understand it. When your country is invaded and occupied as often by foreigners as mine was, having a language no one else can understand is very useful.

voyager
2010-03-30, 08:47
So Romans are Turks.... who would have though that.

:lol::lol:

I hope you are being funny.

Etruscans were a mix of indigenous people in central Italy with incomers from Asia Minor.
Turkey did not exist in antiquity and the linguistic ancestors of the medieval and modern Turks were still living in Central Asia.

pinguin
2010-03-30, 12:25
It is curious but both pre-Socratic philosophy (roots of science) and the origins of the Roman Empire, come from Turkey. If we add to that the civilizing influence of Sumerians (astronomy, math) Phoenicians (alphabet, ship building, commerce) and Hebrews (Christian religion), we start to realize how much the West is indebt with West Asia.