Study: Swedish genetic substructure

[Karhunkynsi]

Finally a study about genetic structure of Sweden!

Full open view study:
Swedish Population Substructure Revealed by Genome-Wide Single Nucleotide Polymorphism Data (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016747)

Substructure in Sweden is clinal and it runs from South<->North axis.

[Karhunkynsi]

Incredibly cool 3d plot of Swedish provinces (Svea, Göta, Norr), Finns (West and East), Germans (Schlesvig-Holstein), Russians (Vologda). This is from the supplementary. Supplementary also contains FST differencies between ALL Finnish and Swedish provinces. Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are not particulary close to Swedes of any province.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016747.s001

[voron]

Who are Svea and Gota?

[Karhunkynsi]

Who are Svea and Gota?

Svealand is the part of Sweden just west of SW Finland (around Stockholm). That is "proto-Sweden" as in Kingdom of Sweden. Götaland is Central-South Sweden , excluding Skåne, the southern tip of Sweden.

Sveas and Geats (Götas) were two ancient Germanic tribes who merged together and formed the core of Swedes (around year ~1000 AD). After and before that there has obviously been plenty of different genetic waves to Sweden, from Germany and from Finland mainly.

[Azvarohi]

A study on Swedes, done by Finns. It seems that Finns are more interested in Swedes than Swedes are of them self. :)

Notice fig. S7, three barriers within Norrland. Västmanland forms one barrier, Småland forms one and Skåne-Blekinge one.

I'm not surprised. Småland has always been somewhat isolated (and hard to control for Swedish rulers through the entire Medieval time) and independent. Norrland was basically uninhabited or sparsely uninhabited with small founder colonies during Medieval times and forward (also evident with the stronger inbreeding results for the north).

[Karhunkynsi]

A study on Swedes, done by Finns. It seems that Finns are more interested in Swedes than Swedes are of them self. :)


I think the reason is more in the internal situation of Sweden where everyone is Swede. It is pretty much impossible to do science (which has ethnic connotations) in Sweden atm. Then again, they propably even couldnt do genetic research because they can not. Sweden is 3rd world country what comes to biotechnology.



Notice fig. S7, three barriers within Norrland. Västmanland forms one barrier, Småland forms one and Skåne-Blekinge one.

I'm not surprised. Småland has always been somewhat isolated (and hard to control for Swedish rulers through the entire Medieval time) and independent. Norrland was basically uninhabited or sparsely uninhabited with small founder colonies during Medieval times and forward (also evident with the stronger inbreeding results for the north).

Greatest FST difference seem to be between VBO and JON, see table S4 from supplementary. VBO (Westrobothnia) seems to be the odd one, Finnish influence I guess.

[Resurrection]

Svealand is the part of Sweden just west of SW Finland (around Stockholm). That is "proto-Sweden" as in Kingdom of Sweden. Götaland is Central-South Sweden , excluding Skåne, the southern tip of Sweden.


Laughs! Skåne is counted as part of Götaland as far as I know, dolfinn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland#Official_status



Götaland (latin: Gothia) är den sydligaste av Sveriges tre landsdelar, och består av landskapen Blekinge, Bohuslän, Dalsland, Halland, Skåne, Småland, Västergötland, Östergötland, Gotland och Öland. Landsdelen omfattar totalt 140 kommuner (2010-12-16).

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland

[Karhunkynsi]

Laughs! Skåne is counted as part of Götaland as far as I know, dolfinn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland#Official_status


Danes and Geats were/are 2 different people. Skåne = Danes.

[Resurrection]

Danes and Geats were/are 2 different people. Skåne = Danes.

Get real the region has been incorporated to Sweden, it has already centuries.


In the Treaty of Roskilde (1658), the Danish kingdom ceded Blekinge, Halland, Scania, and Bohuslän to Sweden. These provinces are since then counted as parts of Götaland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland#History

[Karhunkynsi]

Get real the region has been incorporated to Sweden, it has already centuries.


Sure. Lets not exaggarate please. When Skåne was _invaded_ by Sweden it was very Danish region. Skåne has been Swedenified.

Skåne is pretty much the proto-Danish region from ethnicity pov. Danish urheimat is at Skåne.

Skåne certainly was not Svea nor Geat, back in the "Beowulf"-period but strictly Danish. Most of Finland has been part of Sweden longer than Skåne has.

[Resurrection]

Sure. Lets not exaggarate please. When Skåne was _invaded_ by Sweden it was very Danish region. Skåne has been Swedenified.

Skåne is pretty much the proto-Danish region from ethnicity pov. Danish urheimat is at Skåne.

Skåne certainly was not Svea nor Geat, back in the "Beowulf"-period but strictly Danish. Most of Finland has been part of Sweden longer than Skåne has.


And what's its relevance other than historic? Today we know those people are ethnically Swedish I do not even know a Skåning person who seriously to see himself as a Dane.

[Janos]

Scania did not became danish until Harald Blutooths reign, late 900's.

[Resurrection]

Scania did not became danish until Harald Blutooths reign, late 900's.

And Sweden liberated them from the terrible Danish serfdom system that lasted until middle of the 1800s. What is left out is that danish farmers had it much worse than the swedish, so when Scania became swedish the Scanian farmers got it much better due to the fact that farmers in Sweden had a much stronger position in society than in Denmark.

Swedish peasants were never reduced to serfdom.

[Polako]

Most of the results are as expected. But they did hint at one thing that I didn't expect...the Vologda Russians are mostly a mix of early North-Central European Slavs, and Eastern Baltic Balts. Hence, they basically come out like a mix of Western Finns and Kiel Germans in this study. So now the mystery is where did they get their 6-10% North and East Eurasian admix, which is pretty much lacking in all Europeans except the Eastern Finns and various ethnic minorities in Russia? They obviously didn't get it from the Kiel German-like founding Slavs, and not from the Balts either.


However, a very different pattern was observed when comparing with the Russians (Fig. S4a): Norrland and Eastern Finland showed the least similarity, Svealand and Götaland an intermediate amount, and Germany and especially Western Finland the most.

[Janos]

Vologda Russians - do you mean Volga-finnic people?

[Polako]

Vologda Russians - do you mean Volga-finnic people?

I mean the ethnic Russian samples from Vologda.

[Lemminkäinen]

Most of the results are as expected. But they did hint at one thing that I didn't expect...the Vologda Russians are mostly a mix of early North-Central European Slavs, and Eastern Baltic Balts. Hence, they basically come out like a mix of Western Finns and Kiel Germans in this study. So now the mystery is where did they get their 6-10% North and East Eurasian admix, which is pretty much lacking in all Europeans except the Eastern Finns and various ethnic minorities in Russia? They obviously didn't get it from the Kiel German-like founding Slavs, and not from the Balts either.

You dont know it yet, I wonder why. They got it just like Finns, by mixing with arctic people to the north of them. All people who expanded northward assimilated local people. You can see it everywhere through Eurasia.

[Polako]

You dont know it yet, I wonder why. They got it just like Finns, by mixing with arctic people to the north of them. All people who expanded northward assimilated local people. You can see it everywhere through Eurasia.

I don't think they were locals, otherwise their haploblocks would be found all over Europe, even at small levels. But they're missing in the Orcadians, who are partly Norwegian, but present in the Vologda Russians. Hmmm...


The Russians have 375 donors, more than for any other population, including from the Yi, Tu, and Mongolians, indicative of admixture with Far-Eastern populations.

Hellenthal G, Auton A, Falush D (2008) Inferring Human Colonization History Using a Copying Model. (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1000078) PLoS Genet 4(5): e1000078. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1000078

[Lemminkäinen]

I don't think they were locals, otherwise their haploblocks would be found all over Europe, even at small levels. But they're missing in the Orcadians, who are partly Norwegian, but present in the Vologda Russians. Hmmm...





I didn't mean that they were locals, but they assimilated local people. My estimate is that as average Finns assimilated Saamis in ratio 10:1, ten Finns and one Saami. It was just what we need to get 5 % North Asian admix. This estimate matches very well what we know about the Finnish history. Answers are here, we only need to see them without biases.

[voron]

Most of the results are as expected. But they did hint at one thing that I didn't expect...the Vologda Russians are mostly a mix of early North-Central European Slavs, and Eastern Baltic Balts. Hence, they basically come out like a mix of Western Finns and Kiel Germans in this study. So now the mystery is where did they get their 6-10% North and East Eurasian admix, which is pretty much lacking in all Europeans except the Eastern Finns and various ethnic minorities in Russia? They obviously didn't get it from the Kiel German-like founding Slavs, and not from the Balts either.

So of all populations sampled, Vologda Russians are the least like Eastern Finns? That is definitely a surprise. Something tells me that it is going to be the same for the rest of North Russians.

---------- Post added 2011-02-12 at 15:53 ----------


Vologda Russians - do you mean Volga-finnic people?

Vologda is a town, Volga is a river, there is no relation. Vologda Russians are ethnic Russians, Volga-Finnic people are ethnic Maris, Mordvins, Chuvash. Again no relation.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vologda&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Vologda,+Province+of+Vologda,+Russia&ll=57.562995,38.847656&spn=7.50344,26.696777&z=6

[Lemminkäinen]

So of all populations sampled, Vologda Russians are the least like Eastern Finns? That is definitely a surprise. Something tells me that it is going to be the same for the rest of North Russians.




Right. This is probably a universal phenomenon there, not only among Eastern Finns and Vologda people.

[Grynda]

Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are not particulary close to Swedes of any province.


At least closer than the Finns are.


Among our Finnish sample, genetically closest to Swedes were the Swedish-speaking Finns of coastal Ostrobothnia. This agrees well with the history of the Swedish-speakers, who arrived into the western and southern coastal areas of Finland in the beginning of the second millennium [21]. However, they have obviously experienced a lot of subsequent admixture with the Finnish-speakers, resulting in a subtle difference between them and their closest neighbors; conversely, their genetic distance from the Swedes is of the same magnitude as the largest distances between provinces within Sweden. A similar, intermediate position of the Swedish-speakers has been detected earlier [22], although with differing admixture proportions, probably depending on the choice of reference samples.

It's a pity there weren't any samples from Swedish speakers in Nyland in this paper. It would have been interesting to see whether they are closer to, similar or further from Swedes in Sweden than the Swedish speakers from Ostrobothnia.


So of all populations sampled, Vologda Russians are the least like Eastern Finns? That is definitely a surprise. Something tells me that it is going to be the same for the rest of North Russians.


This doesn't really go along with the theory that Northern Russians are slavicized Finnic people.

[voron]

This doesn't really go along with the theory that Northern Russians are slavicized Finnic people.

Indeed. More like central Europeans Slavs with some non-Euro admix of unknown source. Vologda was indeed raided by Mongols in 13th century, so maybe they are the source.

[Lemminkäinen]

Indeed. More like central Europeans Slavs with some non-Euro admix of unknown source. Vologda was indeed raided by Mongols in 13th century, so maybe they are the source.


I dont understand why it is so hard puzzle for somebody. I dont even care, never mind.

[Ashina]

So of all populations sampled, Vologda Russians are the least like Eastern Finns? That is definitely a surprise. Something tells me that it is going to be the same for the rest of North Russians.

---------- Post added 2011-02-12 at 15:53 ----------



Vologda is a town, Volga is a river, there is no relation. Vologda Russians are ethnic Russians, Volga-Finnic people are ethnic Maris, Mordvins, Chuvash. Again no relation.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vologda&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Vologda,+Province+of+Vologda,+Russia&ll=57.562995,38.847656&spn=7.50344,26.696777&z=6

Chuvash people are Turkic actually.

[Karhunkynsi]

So of all populations sampled, Vologda Russians are the least like Eastern Finns? That is definitely a surprise. Something tells me that it is going to be the same for the rest of North Russians.

Eastern Finns in this and in someother studies are really really young population(s). They are all formed post-1500's and in some cases (like Kuusamo) post-1700.

All of these Eastern Finns are living in the territory of the Old Novgorod land but are not genetically (atleast mostly) decendants of the "Novgorod Finnics". Finns and "Novgorod Karelians" fought about those lands for centuries. It was brutal total war, enemies were locked in to their cabins and burned down, one family or one village at the time. This war raged from east Tawastia at west to White Sea at the east.

East Finns are young population that has expanded very quickly from small number of founders (who mainly came from West Finland), this fast expansion and small number of founders has caused huge genetic drift on East Finns.

Thats why they are so very distinct, even if compared to West Finns, who are old population.

East Finns are not source population for North Russians, mostly they propably share some ancestral layers of Saamic-speakers and "Novgorod Finnics". Finnic source populations for North Russians are rather East Karelians (or Karelians-proper), Vepsians and other "Novgorod Finnics", not Finnish-Finns of anykind.

Old border of Sweden and Novgorod is the dividing line between West and East Finns but the East Finns are not mainly decended from the "Novgorod Finnics".

---------- Post added 2011-02-13 at 13:13 ----------


At least closer than the Finns are.


Hehe, British and Germans are closer to Swedes than Finlandswedes are. Closest genetic relatives of Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are.. tadaa.. Finnish speaking Ostrobothnians. SSOBs are simply genetic Finns who speak Swedish, with very moderare amount of actual Swedihs ancestry.

[voron]

I don't know what you are on about - Novgorod was thoroughly Slavic from the moment it was founded to present. Whenever those Eastern Finnics came from was not Novgorod. All birch bark letters from Novgorod are written in old Russian with typically Slavic names and so on. I suppose your alternative version is another Finnish attempt to reinvent history, kind of like Afrocentrists with their Egyptian fairy-tales.


Finnic source populations for North Russians are rather East Karelians (or Karelians-proper), Vepsians and other "Novgorod Finnics", not Finnish-Finns of anykind.

It is quite obvious that they are not. It is getting more and more obvious that North Russians are the result of Slavic expansion into North-East with minor admixture from aboriginal Finnic tribes. Otherwise they would not cluster so close to Central European Germans.

[Lemminkäinen]

I agree what Voron wrote. Expanding Slavs assimilated local people who were some semi-arctic group, like Saamis, but in that case something else. Apparently they were not Finnic people.

Here is a quote from the same study. You see that Vologda Russians aren't close even Eastern Finns, despite their common North-Asian affinity. Strange that Polako's maps locates Western Finns close Northern Russians. It simply cannot be true. Even if added Eastern and Central Europeans affect to Finns on his plot, the result cannot move Finns close Northern Russians because they are even more distant for Finns than Balts.


In strong contrast, however, neither Norrland nor Eastern Finns showed any increase in similarity to the Vologda Russians, and a similar lack of
affinity between Finns and Russians can also be seen in separate
datasets [6,13]. Thus, if the current references are representative
of Russians in this respect, the observed affinity to Eastern Asia
would not be mediated by contacts with Russians but could reflect
an ancient eastern influence predating the arrival of Slavic
populations to Northeastern Europe in the end of the first
millennium [23]. It remains unclear whether the eastern affinity
observed in Sweden would date back to the same era, or rather
reflect the amount of later Finnish contacts to the area.

[Polako]

Strange that Polako's maps locates Western Finns close Northern Russians. It simply cannot be true.

It's definitely true, because this study found the same thing. The Vologda Russians are closest in this study to Western Finns and then to North Germans, both on the PCAs and in terms of Fst (see below). On the other hand, they're most distant from Eastern Finns.

That's exactly right, and the large distance between Vologda Russians and Eastern Finns also shows up very well on my plots in dimensions 1&3 and 1&6.

[Polako]

Here's an interesting PCA from the study. This is the one that I thought resembled many of my plots very closely, but the above 3D plots are also close, if you take into account the different sample sets and numbers.

Unfortunately, this study was missing Balts and Slavs other than the Vologda Russians, while I don't have enough Swedes and Finland Swedes.

[Karhunkynsi]

It's definitely true, because this study found the same thing. The Vologda Russians are closest in this study to Western Finns and then to North Germans, both on the PCAs and in terms of Fst (see below). On the other hand, they're most distant from Eastern Finns.


I agree with you and disagree with Lemmy&Voron. Obviously North Russians are very mixed people, like all Russians. Their one main component is very similar to that of West Finns. East Finns are distant for everyone for the reasons I allready explained (drift,drift,drift, founder effect). They are very young population and are not genetic source for any other population (except for West Finns but there the picture gets complicated).

West Finns (Tavastians likely) moved to North Russia during the Viking Age and even before that. There are excavated burials at West Finland where warrior-graves contain materials that point to connections all the way to Kama-river (Volga Bolgars) at east (belt buckles), same burials also point to west, to "Germanic" world, luxury swords etc. These guys were acting as sort of middle men between two larger trading networks.

Then around 8-10th century there appears warrior-graves at northeast of Ladoga that are typically West Finnish. Region was far from empty at that point, it was infact Vepsian domain. Vepsian ethnogenesis remains uncertain but they are Baltic Finns anyhow. Central European Slavs also have contributed to North Russians genetic pool (Slovene-tribe), Baltic tribes too.

Lemmy, I was not pointing that the East Asian component at North Russia is "Finnic", thats insane.

There are several different _historical_ waves of people who may have brought more East Asian component to North Russia.

Turko-Mongols (read: Turko-Iranian admixed footsoldier, not that much Mongols per se) ~1270 AD until modern day (Tatars are 2nd largest ethnic group of Russia), Samoyedic expansion from Northwest Siberia to Northeast Europe around ~1200 AD until modern day. Both of these genetic waves hardly affected Finns nor North Swedes but are present at North Russia.

What comes to Voron's strange conclusions about ethnic formation of North Russians I suggest you to read this article:
http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Makarov.pdf

N.A. Makarov
(Moscow)
Cultural Identity of the Russian North Settlers in the 10th – 13th
Centuries: Archaeological Evidence and Written Sources

[Lemminkäinen]

It's definitely true, because this study found the same thing. The Vologda Russians are closest in this study to Western Finns and then to North Germans, both on the PCAs and in terms of Fst (see below). On the other hand, they're most distant from Eastern Finns.

.

No its is not like that, because Western Finns have also their own distances. The study gives us following distances for the Western Finns.

SWE 24.2
SWE-MIX 29.7
FIE 30.3
RUS 34.4
GER 34.5

[Lemminkäinen]

Here's an interesting PCA from the study. This is the one that I thought resembled many of my plots very closely, but the above 3D plots are also close, if you take into account the different sample sets and numbers.

Unfortunately, this study was missing Balts and Slavs other than the Vologda Russians, while I don't have enough Swedes and Finland Swedes.

Again two-dimensional plot. It is only one possibility to show things.

---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 12:33 ----------


I agree with you and disagree with Lemmy&Voron. Obviously North Russians are very mixed people, like all Russians. Their one main component is very similar to that of West Finns. East Finns are distant for everyone for the reasons I allready explained (drift,drift,drift, founder effect). They are very young population and are not genetic source for any other population (except for West Finns but there the picture gets complicated).

West Finns (Tavastians likely) moved to North Russia during the Viking Age and even before that. There are excavated burials at West Finland where warrior-graves contain materials that point to connections all the way to Kama-river (Volga Bolgars) at east (belt buckles), same burials also point to west, to "Germanic" world, luxury swords etc. These guys were acting as sort of middle men between two larger trading networks.



I wasnt arguing against historic connections between western Finns and Vologda Russians, but against Polakos latest plot. Please look at the distance data sheet in the previous message. The Vologda Russians may be mixed Slavs, Swedes nd Western Finns. But NOT only Western Finns. Polako himself wondered how they have that eastern affinity, my answer was a answer to this question.

[Karhunkynsi]

I wasnt arguing against historic connections between western Finns and Vologda Russians, but against Polakos latest plot. Please look at the distance data sheet in the previous message. The Vologda Russians may be mixed Slavs, Swedes nd Western Finns. But NOT only Western Finns.

You agreed with Voron's post that Vologda Russians are Central European Slavs. They are not.

What I found amazing is that majority of Swedes are actually nuttin' but North Germans.

[Lemminkäinen]

You agreed with Voron's post that Vologda Russians are Central European Slavs. They are not.



They are Slavs, but mixed. They are not Finnic people. They could be a Slavic-Finnic-x-x mix. You will never find pure ethnic groups.




What I found amazing is that majority of Swedes are actually nuttin' but North Germans.

No surprise to me. Their names are so German. When we have German immigrants in some extent, Swedes had them at least ten times more.

[Karhunkynsi]

They are Slavs, but mixed. They are not Finnic people.


Ofcource they are not Finnic, they dont speak Finnic language. They are Slavs linguistically but they are not only Slavs (Central Europeans) genetically. I'm not over emphasizing their Finnic ancestry, which is substantial tho', which can be seen from paternal lineages (N1c1, I1 etc).



They could be a Slavic-Finnic-x-x mix.


This I agree.



No surprise to me. Their names are so German. When we have German immigrants in some extent, Swedes had them at least ten times more.

Where do you think we can find most genuine (non-German) Swedes ? North ?

[Polako]

No its is not like that, because Western Finns have also their own distances. The study gives us following distances for the Western Finns.

SWE 24.2
SWE-MIX 29.7
FIE 30.3
RUS 34.4
GER 34.5

I still don't understand why you're wondering why Western Finns overlap with Western Russians on my latest plot?

There's a certain degree of dichotomy in the Western Finnish results, with some of them coming out Swedish-like. You can see those guys on my plots too, and they're part of the reason why Swedes are at the top of that list in this study, which has many more people like that.

The other major reason why that Fst between Western Finland and Sweden is the lowest is because there's some Finnish admixture in Sweden.

But none of that negates the fact that some Western Finns are similar to Vologda Russians, and they overlap with the Russians in this study, especially in dimensions 1&2.

That's why some Finns also overlap with the Russians on my 1&2 plot (while others don't because, as per above, they're more Swedish-like or Eastern Finns).

So there's nothing to wonder about. There would be something to wonder about if all the Finns on my 1&2 plot missed the Russian cluster completely. That would indeed be a questionable result, because it wouldn't match this study.

[Lemminkäinen]

Ofcource they are not Finnic, they dont speak Finnic language. They are Slavs linguistically but they are not only Slavs (Central Europeans) genetically. I'm not over emphasizing their Finnic ancestry, which is substantial tho', which can be seen from paternal lineages (N1c1, I1 etc).



But all N1c1 and I1 are not Finnish. We have not recently any detailed and comparative study about the northern Russian Ydna. I hope to see it, but so far we have not such study even from the Baltic region.





Where do you think we can find most genuine (non-German) Swedes ? North ?

Perhaps to the north of Upland.

---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 14:03 ----------


I still don't understand why you're wondering why Western Finns overlap with Western Russians on my latest plot?

There's a certain degree of dichotomy in the Western Finnish results, with some of them coming out Swedish-like. You can see those guys on my plots too, and they're part of the reason why Swedes are at the top of that list in this study, which has many more people like that.

The other major reason why that Fst between Western Finland and Sweden is the lowest is because there's some Finnish admixture in Sweden.

But none of that negates the fact that some Western Finns are similar to Vologda Russians, and they overlap with the Russians in this study, especially in dimensions 1&2.

That's why some Finns also overlap with the Russians on my 1&2 plot (while others don't because, as per above, they're more Swedish-like or Eastern Finns).

So there's nothing to wonder about. There would be something to wonder about if all the Finns on my 1&2 plot missed the Russian cluster completely. That would indeed be a questionable result, because it wouldn't match this study.

There is too much contradictions between studies. I cannot believe before I see some consistency here.

I am not going to list all these contradictions, but for example that latest study shows that Northern Russians are quite exactly in the midpoint of Western Finns, Germans and Sveas. This makes sense if we think about their ydna distribution (of course the picture could change with other references), because if they had Poles or other Slavic references, they would probably be the closest group for the Northern RUssians.

[Polako]

I am not going to list all these contradictions, but for example that latest study shows that Northern Russians are quite exactly in the midpoint of Western Finns, Germans and Sveas. This makes sense if we think about their ydna distribution (of course the picture could change with other references), because if they had Poles or other Slavic references, they would probably be the closest group for the Northern RUssians.

I can't see the contradictions, just different pictures of basically the same thing that arise either due to different samples or angles of view used.

Clearly, all these northern populations are closely related, but they look less so compared to Western and Central Europeans, because lower population density has resulted in them being descendant of smaller founding groups.

This phenomenon already starts around northern Poland and central Sweden, and reaches its peak in Eastern Finland. That's why all the genetic distances in the north and northeast look blown out compared to Central Europe, which actually has a lot more diversity. So on an MDS, a large cluster in the northeast isn't all that large by local standards. It might actually be very small, despite the fact that it seems to cover a lot of ground. Same thing with Fst and ASD scores.

I suppose there might be some way of correcting that, but I haven't seen any scientists attempting it, and it's too complex for me too. But it's not really a huge issue IMO. Problems arise obviously when people start taking their rulers to MDS plots, and assuming they can actually interpret the results in a meaningful way by just measuring the distances, without actually understanding what they're even looking at.

I think what everyone should understand about my latest plot, specifically the northern end, is that there are two closely related streams running parallel to each other, and occasionally overlapping.

The groups that are part of those two streams are very close to each other, and they're also close to the nearby groups from the other stream, but less so to those who aren't part of their stream, and a bit further away.

One of these streams runs from Eastern Finland to Norway, and the other from Northern Russia to Germany.

[Karhunkynsi]

But all N1c1 and I1 are not Finnish.

I didnt say it is Finnish. I said that it is not very likely that Central European Slavs brought in N1c1 and I1 to North Russia. Those two haplos are roughly 1/2 of North Russian paternal pool.

[Lemminkäinen]

I can't see the contradictions, just different pictures of basically the same thing that arise either due to different samples or angles of view used.




Right, and that is why I dont trust to PCA/MDS plots. Everyone has always tens explanations why things look strange and different. Not only you.




Clearly, all these northern populations are closely related, but they look less so compared to Western and Central Europeans, because lower population density has resulted in them being descendant of smaller founding groups.

This phenomenon already starts around northern Poland and central Sweden, and reaches its peak in Eastern Finland. That's why all the genetic distances in the north and northeast look blown out compared to Central Europe, which actually has a lot more diversity. So on an MDS, a large cluster in the northeast isn't all that large by local standards. It might actually be very small, despite the fact that it seems to cover a lot of ground. Same thing with Fst and ASD scores.



Again right as to the homogeneity (not same as homozygote), I have seen it , but this doesn't mean close kinship within these groups. It only mean that the variety between close populations is small and they have some highly common genome area, not that they are always close in a genome-wide comparison. It doesnt mean for example that Eastern Finns and Northern Russians are close each other. Apparently two different things.




I suppose there might be some way of correcting that, but I haven't seen any scientists attempting it, and it's too complex for me too. But it's not really a huge issue IMO. Problems arise obviously when people start taking their rulers to MDS plots, and assuming they can actually interpret the results in a meaningful way by just measuring the distances, without actually understanding what they're even looking at.



Of course, there is not available any good fix, because you cannot display multidimensional plots. But there is also other disadvantages in the used pricipal component methodwith mixed individuals.




I think what everyone should understand about my latest plot, specifically the northern end, is that there are two closely related streams running parallel to each other, and occasionally overlapping.

The groups that are part of those two streams are very close to each other, and they're also close to the nearby groups from the other stream, but less so to those who aren't part of their stream, and a bit further away.

One of these streams runs from Eastern Finland to Norway, and the other from Northern Russia to Germany.

No there is no such streams, the question is only that the PCA as a method search the most different areas in all data and emphasizes differences and ignores similarities. It builds the view using found differences (principal components) and if, like in this case, two different populations have similar differences (in the whole data set) inherited from very homogenous arctic groups, it makes these populations equal despite their apparent disparity. Genome-wide comparisons have not this disadvantage.

---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 16:27 ----------


I didnt say it is Finnish. I said that it is not very likely that Central European Slavs brought in N1c1 and I1 to North Russia. Those two haplos are roughly 1/2 of North Russian paternal pool.

It may be also Baltic. We dont know, or do we?

[Grynda]

No its is not like that, because Western Finns have also their own distances. The study gives us following distances for the Western Finns.

SWE 24.2
SWE-MIX 29.7
FIE 30.3
RUS 34.4
GER 34.5

What does SWE-MIX stand for? How does it differ from SWE?

[Lemminkäinen]

The study says only "Swedes w/o further information".

Grynda, you could be interested in following data. Some interesting obsevations

- closest with Swedes in Finland are Finland-Swedes
- next are SW-Finns
- Satakunta is not so close Sweden

This sounds to be a bit weird in general, because the SW-Finnish yDna is mainly N1c1 and in Satakunta it is I1. Again a good proof how lost non-Finnish population geneticists are.

- VNBO (Västerbotten + Norrbotten) is very distant for all Swedes and Finns. They are perhaps Saamis, at least partial.

- combined Kalmar + Gotland samples are closest with Finland-Swedes. Very surprising; are Finland-Swedes old people described in Kalevala (Vuojola folk = Gotland folk) :p This is really interesting, what do you think? Have you any idea knowing your history? Next closest for Finland-Swedes are Västernorrland, Upland and Västemanland.

[Grynda]

- combined Kalmar + Gotland samples are closest with Finland-Swedes. Very surprising; are Finland-Swedes old people described in Kalevala (Vuojola folk = Gotland folk) :p This is really interesting, what do you think? Have you any idea knowing your history? Next closest for Finland-Swedes are Västernorrland, Upland and Västemanland.

Gotland has always been mentioned as one place of origin to the Finland-Swedes. There's the old story (fairy tale?) about famine in Gotland, and that the people in Gotland drew lots about which of them who had to leave the island. Those chosen by the lot left for Finland. This same story is however also told about other places in the world.

[Karhunkynsi]

This same story is however also told about other places in the world.

Is that why we have so many Finland-Iraqis and Finland-Somalis today ?

[Lemminkäinen]

Gotland has always been mentioned as one place of origin to the Finland-Swedes. There's the old story (fairy tale?) about famine in Gotland, and that the people in Gotland drew lots about which of them who had to leave the island. Those chosen by the lot left for Finland. This same story is however also told about other places in the world.

I have also read that fairy tale. There was also in Gotland a huge cultural change in the begining of the Viking Age pointing possible population shift. But all this speculation is of course only pseudoscience, because even Finland-Swedish authorities dont agree the settlemement contiuity over the VIking Age in Southern Ostrobothnia.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 19:26 ----------


Is that why we have so many Finland-Iraqis and Finland-Somalis today ?

No, they were invited here to get our streets looking better. Swedes dont help us in that problem.

[Grynda]

No, they were invited here to get our streets looking better. Swedes dont help us in that problem.

We aren't as good in enriching the culture as the Somalis.;)

[Jaska]

I didn't mean that they were locals, but they assimilated local people. My estimate is that as average Finns assimilated Saamis in ratio 10:1, ten Finns and one Saami. It was just what we need to get 5 % North Asian admix. This estimate matches very well what we know about the Finnish history. Answers are here, we only need to see them without biases.
You are claiming that the North Asian portion in Saamis were 50 % (of this, 10 % makes 5 % in Finns). Do you have any evidence for this? It is not so much in present-day Saami, nor in any other European people, as far as I know.


This doesn't really go along with the theory that Northern Russians are slavicized Finnic people.
We know from the linguistic evidence that they are. So we just must assume that they were genetically different from eastern Finns. Eastern Finns probably have some Palaeo-Finlandish admixture (in addition to the genetic drift), because they are far from everybody else. Western Finns are almost as close to Russians as they are to Swedes.

Karhunkynsi is right when saying:
“Finnic source populations for North Russians are rather East Karelians (or Karelians-proper), Vepsians and other "Novgorod Finnics", not Finnish-Finns of anykind.”


Hehe, British and Germans are closer to Swedes than Finlandswedes are. Closest genetic relatives of Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are.. tadaa.. Finnish speaking Ostrobothnians. SSOBs are simply genetic Finns who speak Swedish, with very moderare amount of actual Swedihs ancestry.
It’s more complicated, as Southern Ostrobothnians are at the same time more closer to Swedish-speakers (distance 6.7) than to any other Finnish-speaking group: the next is Häme (distance 25). There may be some "ancient Bothnian" component involved:

http://p1.foorumi.info/muinainensuomi/viewtopic.php?t=5


I don't know what you are on about - Novgorod was thoroughly Slavic from the moment it was founded to present. Whenever those Eastern Finnics came from was not Novgorod. All birch bark letters from Novgorod are written in old Russian with typically Slavic names and so on.
No, you are wrong: there are Finnic birch bark texts too (see 292), and also many person names used in Novgorod are Finnic:

http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/sbornik2008/saarikivi.pdf

So it is false to claim that it was thoroughly Slavic from the beginning.


Right, and that is why I dont trust to PCA/MDS plots. Everyone has always tens explanations why things look strange and different. Not only you.
I give a hint: don’t look at the plots, look at the tables where the pairwise distances are. So you won’t miss any dimension.

[Lemminkäinen]

You are claiming that the North Asian portion in Saamis were 50 % (of this, 10 % makes 5 % in Finns). Do you have any evidence for this? It is not so much in present-day Saami, nor in any other European people, as far as I know.




No,it was only my estimate, based on what I have seen at 23andme. We have no evidences of their genetics.




I give a hint: don’t look at the plots, look at the tables where the pairwise distances are. So you won’t miss any dimension.

I didnt mean this study. It is quite professional and reliable. I was only saying that in general these plots are very unreliable, because they are based on selected princpal components, not on genome-wide comparison. But professional researches can avoid mistakes. It needs to calibrate all refrences and samples carefully and pay attention to several dimensions, not only 1 and 2 in case of quite heterogenous and mixed samples.

---------- Post added 2011-02-17 at 13:31 ----------

Jaska


It’s more complicated, as Southern Ostrobothnians are at the same time more closer to Swedish-speakers (distance 6.7) than to any other Finnish-speaking group: the next is Häme (distance 25). There may be some "ancient Bothnian" component involved:

Of course. SSOB and SOB have mixed 700 years, they should be genetically close each other. But on the other hand SOBs have significant East-Finnish admix and their origin is in Tavastia and Satakunta.

One thing what I see worth noticing is that Satakunta, the main yDna clade I1, are much more distant to Swedes than SW-Finns with their main yDna N1c1. This makes sense if we look only the history, but shows markedly how easy it is to make wrong concllusions without real knowledge.


Karhunkynsi is right when saying:
“Finnic source populations for North Russians are rather East Karelians (or Karelians-proper), Vepsians and other "Novgorod Finnics", not Finnish-Finns of anykind.”

They are mainly Slavs, descendants of expanded Slavs and there could be also other younger populations.

[Karhunkynsi]

It’s more complicated, as Southern Ostrobothnians are at the same time more closer to Swedish-speakers (distance 6.7) than to any other Finnish-speaking group


Point is : South Ostrobothnians are Finns and only Finns what comes to ethnicity.

SSOBs (Sad Son Of a Bitches ?) are closest to ethnic Finnish group, not to any Swedish group from Sweden. Thus idea that SSOBs are Swedes, like Grynda thinks, is not based on reality but on wishfull thinking. SSOBs are mixed group with Finnish predominance.

There are some serious self-esteem issues at Swedish speaking Finn-group I note. They take great pride of being a little bit of Swedish and play down their majority ancestry component, which is Finnish.

[voron]

No, you are wrong: there are Finnic birch bark texts too (see 292), and also many person names used in Novgorod are Finnic:


TexT. Singular. That is out of hundreds of those that are in Slavic. And yes, they almost exclusively have Slavic names. I can actually still read them and understand most of it, without any linguistic education.

[aeon]

There is also 1 birchbark text written in Old Low German, so Finns have as much to do with Novgorod as Germans have.

:evilgrin:

[Grynda]

SSOBs (Sad Son Of a Bitches ?)

I think Super Sons Of Bulls is more likely.


TexT. Singular. That is out of hundreds of those that are in Slavic. And yes, they almost exclusively have Slavic names. I can actually still read them and understand most of it, without any linguistic education.

Some here just can't accept that it was the Swede Mikael Agricola who gave the Finns the first standard written form of the Finnish language in the 16th century.

[Kaiku]

There are some serious self-esteem issues at Swedish speaking Finn-group I note. They take great pride of being a little bit of Swedish and play down their majority ancestry component, which is Finnish.

If anything this must be that famous "Finnish inferiority complex" people seem to keep going on about. ;)

[Jaska]

Of course. SSOB and SOB have mixed 700 years, they should be genetically close each other. But on the other hand SOBs have significant East-Finnish admix and their origin is in Tavastia and Satakunta.
According to this study the distance to eastern Finns is as great as the distance to Swedes. No sign of significant eastern admixture here. On the contrary, the Southern Ostrobothnians and Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians are the most distant western Finns from the eastern Finns. South-west Finns, Satakunta and Tavastians are closer to eastern Finns.


One thing what I see worth noticing is that Satakunta, the main yDna clade I1, are much more distant to Swedes than SW-Finns with their main yDna N1c1. This makes sense if we look only the history, but shows markedly how easy it is to make wrong concllusions without real knowledge.
Yes, if you mean the supposed connection of I1 to Swedes.


Point is : South Ostrobothnians are Finns and only Finns what comes to ethnicity.
SSOBs (Sad Son Of a Bitches ?) are closest to ethnic Finnish group, not to any Swedish group from Sweden. Thus idea that SSOBs are Swedes, like Grynda thinks, is not based on reality but on wishfull thinking. SSOBs are mixed group with Finnish predominance.
But what I meant is the fact that Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians are not closest to other Finns, they are closest only to southern Ostrobothnians (6,7); next comes Kalmar + Gotland (13,4), VNO (13,6), Uppland (15,0) and many more Swedish areas before southwest Finns (21,0) and other Finns.

So we cannot say that Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians are closer to Finns than Swedes, but we must say that they are closest to southern Ostrobothnians, then Swedes, then western Finns, then eastern Finns. There truly seems to be some ancient Bothnian component behind this, because southern Ostrobothnians are very far from Swedes (40-50) while they are very close to Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians.


There are some serious self-esteem issues at Swedish speaking Finn-group I note. They take great pride of being a little bit of Swedish and play down their majority ancestry component, which is Finnish.
No. If their majority ancestry component were Finnish, then no other Finns would have this Finnish component as a majority, except southern Ostrobothnians. So it's better to caal this majority component Bothnian, not Finnish.

Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians truly seem to be closer to Swedes than Finns (excluding the southern Ostrobothnians).

Guys, it's objective science - don't take it so politically...


TexT. Singular. That is out of hundreds of those that are in Slavic. And yes, they almost exclusively have Slavic names. I can actually still read them and understand most of it, without any linguistic education.
It’s good that you now say “almost”. Earlier you said that “Novgorod was thoroughly Slavic from the moment it was founded to present”, which was false.

[Aila]

A study on Swedes, done by Finns. It seems that Finns are more interested in Swedes than Swedes are of them self. :)

So it seems.
I have put it down as Western Finns being fascinated by their own reflection (i.e. similarity to Swedes), and there still being a continuity of cultural influences stemming from Finland-Sweden era.

At least I identify myself more as an Eastern Finn, so I really don't give a flying fig about the Swedes nor their "cultural" influences.
No offence intended.

Also I think that it is a good idea to leave it to the SSOBs and the East Finns themselves to define their own identity and influences, rather than those being defined for them into the "sameness-basket" with Western Finns.

[Nicola_Canadian]

The most important part -


In our earlier study [4], we saw that North European populations exhibited differing amounts of IBS similarity to East Asians so that Finns, especially Eastern Finns, were the most similar. Now we have observed the same phenomenon - though in a smaller degree - within Sweden, where Norrland showed the most of East Asian similarity and Götaland the least. This is consistent with earlier Y-chromosomal studies [13]. In strong contrast, however, neither Norrland nor Eastern Finns showed any increase in similarity to the Vologda Russians, and a similar lack of affinity between Finns and Russians can also be seen in separate datasets [6], [13]. Thus, if the current references are representative of Russians in this respect, the observed affinity to Eastern Asia would not be mediated by contacts with Russians but could reflect an ancient eastern influence predating the arrival of Slavic populations to Northeastern Europe in the end of the first millennium [23]. It remains unclear whether the eastern affinity observed in Sweden would date back to the same era, or rather reflect the amount of later Finnish contacts to the area.

[Lemminkäinen]

According to this study the distance to eastern Finns is as great as the distance to Swedes. No sign of significant eastern admixture here. On the contrary, the Southern Ostrobothnians and Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians are the most distant western Finns from the eastern Finns. South-west Finns, Satakunta and Tavastians are closer to eastern Finns.




This is a paradox; Southern Ostrobothnians are probably one of the most mixed people in Finland with coastal northern Ostrobothnians. When they have mixed with Finland-Swedes they are also mixed with Savo-Karelians. Some people are homogenous and some heterogenous. Heterogenous people can have two genetic poles, and they still are near averages or more to another pole as average . This is a very common circumstance. That is why we need IBS-type analyses to see what people really are.

---------- Post added 2011-02-18 at 09:55 ----------


So it seems.
I have put it down as Western Finns being fascinated by their own reflection (i.e. similarity to Swedes), and there still being a continuity of cultural influences stemming from Finland-Sweden era.

.

I dont think so and have not seen it for example on this forum, may be it is just vice versa. Western Finns are interested in their history and it is in many ways related to Swedes, but basically my own interest is in history because it is poorly known as to western Finns.

---------- Post added 2011-02-18 at 10:05 ----------


The most important part -

The "Asian affinity" in both Finnsh and Russians samples are result of mixing with northern semiarctic people after the expansion to the north. But in cases of Finns and Vologdas those semiarctic groups were not same. Although northern semiarctic and arctic groups are small and genetically drifted differently, they have same North Asian origin. In this view the genetic history of Finns and Russians dont differ much; if Finns are explained to be arrived from Northern Asia, so are also those Russians, even more likely because they are closer Northern Asia in geographic and genetic perspectives. Just take facts as they are.

[Grynda]

So we cannot say that Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians are closer to Finns than Swedes, but we must say that they are closest to southern Ostrobothnians, then Swedes, then western Finns, then eastern Finns. There truly seems to be some ancient Bothnian component behind this, because southern Ostrobothnians are very far from Swedes (40-50) while they are very close to Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians.


It's no surprise that Swedish-speaking and Finnish-speaking Ostrobothnians are close to each other. According to folklore the Swedish immigrants in the Middle Ages mixed heavily with the Finnish speakers when they first came to Finland. They settled into two language groups, the group along the coast spoke Swedish and the ones in the inland Finnish. From about 16th century when we have churchbooks to study the two groups have however remained more or less separated from each other as far as intermarriages are concerned till the recent decades.

As I have said earlier, it would be interesting to see where Swedish-speakers from Nyland would appear.

---------- Post added 2011-02-18 at 13:02 ----------



Also I think that it is a good idea to leave it to the SSOBs and the East Finns themselves to define their own identity and influences, rather than those being defined for them into the "sameness-basket" with Western Finns.

True. People from different parts of Finland are quite different from each other.

[Lemminkäinen]

One reason why Finnish and Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians so close are each other is in samples. Geographic definitions are quite inaccurate. A map showing wherefrom samples are gathered

[Jaska]

The "Asian affinity" in both Finnsh and Russians samples are result of mixing with northern semiarctic people after the expansion to the north. But in cases of Finns and Vologdas those semiarctic groups were not same. Although northern semiarctic and arctic groups are small and genetically drifted differently, they have same North Asian origin. In this view the genetic history of Finns and Russians dont differ much; if Finns are explained to be arrived from Northern Asia, so are also those Russians, even more likely because they are closer Northern Asia in geographic and genetic perspectives. Just take facts as they are.
Yes, this seems to be the best interpretation of the data.


This is a paradox; Southern Ostrobothnians are probably one of the most mixed people in Finland with coastal northern Ostrobothnians. When they have mixed with Finland-Swedes they are also mixed with Savo-Karelians.
According to this study, Southern and Northern Ostrobothnians are not mixed with each other: their distance is great (53,3). What do you mean by saying: “When they have mixed with Finland-Swedes they are also mixed with Savo-Karelians”? This sounds like you would think that Finland-Swedes had some Savo-Karelian component.

[Lemminkäinen]

Yes, this seems to be the best interpretation of the data.


According to this study, Southern and Northern Ostrobothnians are not mixed with each other: their distance is great (53,3). What do you mean by saying: “When they have mixed with Finland-Swedes they are also mixed with Savo-Karelians”? This sounds like you would think that Finland-Swedes had some Savo-Karelian component.

Sorry, I meant that Finnish speaking Ostrobothnians have Savo-Karelian admix, but now I have opportunity to clarify that also Swedish speaking Osrobothnians have it around Kokkola. Kokkola is not included to this study.