Persians as culturally & genetically offspring of Semites+Huro-Guto-Kassi-Elamites? [Archive] - ForumBiodiversity.com

arabturaniran

2010-01-12, 14:03

Persians steppes hordes moved very late to Iran(8th BC)bringing their very rude old Persian language(much more rude than dutsch or swedish)but of course they were numerically very inferior to thousand of years established semites,sumerians,elamites...
The original folks of iran(elamites who are very distantly linked to semites,gutians,kassites,hurrians,babylonians...)r efined this language and included a huge number of semitic(and other languages)loanwords and grammatical features so middle and modern persian are in fact the very mixed refined version of old persian spoken by semites and other folks of iran-mesopotamia that gave it a much more pleasant middle-eastern semite pronunciation.(even todays,the pronunciation of modern Persan is similar to the one of Iraqi,gulf and levantine dialects of Arabic)

The arriving Persians(or let's say the semite of Iran very naturally)adopted semitic Akkadian as their official language and Akkadian aphabet as their official alphabet(later moving to Semitic Aramean as official language and alphabet then to Semitic Arabic and Arabic alphabet).

In the modern Persian the word of bread is the Sumerian "nan".
Very interestingly,in the modern Persian coexist different semitic words derived of same semitic roots(for example akkadian GUNAH=sin,and same rooted arabic DJONHE=law enforcement)

Let's look at some "persian" cultural and religious items

A1/semite babylonians
http://www.livius.org/a/iran/persepolis/apadana-eaststairs/babylonians.JPG
http://www.livius.org/a/iran/persepolis/apadana-eaststairs/05_babylonians_1.JPG

B1/persians
http://www.persianmirror.com/Images/Articles/646/medes.JPG
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1539/susarchers.jpg

A2/semite bull
http://www.garrisonpublishing.com/images/AssyriaBull.jpg
http://www.rogerswebsite.com/England/62%20-%20Assyrian%20Winged%20Bull%20at%20British%20Museu m.jpg
semite lion(gave birth to the iranian lion)
http://www.atlastours.net/iraq/lion_of_babylon.jpg
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/Babylonian-lion.gif
akkadian tanbur which is the ancestor of all corded instruments(the semitic root nbr,arabic nabra)
akkadian pasaltiru(which gave birth to persian santoor and greec santuri)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4586/akkadiansanturharp.jpg
akkadian harp(first harp found in the history)
http://www.lyre-of-ur.co.uk/images/A_6.gif
semitic rubaba(which gave birth to all corded instruments with baston)
semitic god atra-hasis(arabic athra-samain,which gave birth to persian atra-hasis)
http://www.indraz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sumerian_symbology-ashurs-winged-disc.jpg
semitic god dhushara(which gave birth to persian zoroastra,a word hat has not any serious persian etmology except the ridiculous camel-buyer but in semitic it means the very meaningful master of the ground and probably was taken by the Greeks as Zeus)
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1593/dhushara.jpg
semitic god shamsh(give birth to the iranian sun)
http://volker-doormann.org/shamash.jpg
semitic kuribu(gave birth to the persian and greek griffin)
http://www.ancientreplicas.com/eagle-diety-o.jpg
semite bab-ishtar(star-gate)
http://www.livius.org/a/1/mesopotamia/ishtargate.JPG
semite town babylon
http://www.ad2in1.com/Images/Various%20pics/babylon%20gardenA.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2493/babil.jpg
http://www.galacticrevelations.co.uk/galacticrev_images/BABYLONIAN%20LANDSCAPE%202.gif
ashurnasirapli
http://www.atlastours.net/iraq/ashurnasirpal_relief.jpg
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_32.143.4.jpg

B2/
iranian griffin
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3696/colonnepersepolismuzeir.jpg
iranian santoor and tanbur
http://santur.blogsport.de/images/HashtBehesht_Palace_santur_01.jpg
iranian bull
http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps335839_l.jpg
iranian god ahura-mazda
http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/ahura_mazda.jpg
iranian god zoroaster
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/Zartosht.jpg
ancien avestan alphabet(taken from aramean alphabet)
http://www.danstopicals.com/iran1755.JPG

So it seems that when H,L,Q,C,O haplotypes carriers steppe hordes moved to iran they took nearly all the cultural and religious items from the 40% J hg semites and 25% R hg sumero-gutio-hurrio-kassites.(cause R haplotype in Iran was proved to be well pre-iranian since iran could well be the place of origin of both R1b and R1a haploypes)

Also dont forget that the iranian fest newruz came from the semite akitu

Zupan

2010-01-12, 17:12

Hm I've noticed all of your posts are about glorifying semitic culture, why?

The persians were not semites or anything else. They rather made you civilized.

bleck

2010-01-12, 17:22

Yes Iranians are sand niggers.

EliasAlucard

2010-01-12, 17:35

Most of the pictures you posted of "Semitic" this and "Semitic" that, were sculptures and statues made by Assyrians. Thanks for totally ignoring mentioning Assyrians, even though, the first Iranian empire was more or less a prot�g� of the Neo-Assyrian Empire:

The lavish expenditures of Assurbanipal on warfare and building drained the resources of the empire and contributed to its weakness. The king of the Medes, Cyaxares, and the Babylonian ruler Nabopolassar, joined forces and took Nineveh in 612 B.C. Under the son of Nabopolassar, Nebuchadnezzar, Babylonia was renewed in power, and the great-grandson of Cyaxares, Cyrus the Great, was to establish the Persian Empire, which owed much to the earlier Assyrian state.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080627211132/http://www.bartleby.com/65/as/Assyria.html

The official language of the Neo-Assyrian Empire was Akkadian, but later, also Aramaic. When the Persians conquered Mesopotamia, Aramaic also became an official language of the Achaemenid Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Imperial_Aramaic

Anyway, yeah, modern Persians are very likely the offspring of ancient Mesopotamians (Assyrians, Babylonians, Elamites and whatnot) to a great extent. See this thread:

Indo-Iranian R1a (Wells et al. 2001) (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=309)
Hm I've noticed all of your posts are about glorifying semitic culture, why?

The persians were not semites or anything else. They rather made you civilized.It's the other way around ;) Times were different then.

Thread moved to Iranology section.

//mod

Zupan

2010-01-12, 17:36

Indo-Iranian R1a (Wells et al. 2001) (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=309)It's the other way around ;) Times were different then.

Thread moved to Iranology section.

//mod

I don't think that the semito-centrist meant the assyrian or the neo assyrian empire.. Or did he?? :o

EliasAlucard

2010-01-12, 17:45

I don't think that the semito-centrist meant the assyrian or the neo assyrian empire.. Or did he?? :oMost of the pictures he posted of "Semites" were from ancient Assyro-Babylonian culture, for example, the Lamassu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamassu

But of course, he didn't want to give the ancient Assyrians credit (he just mentioned Ashurnasirpal briefly). Instead, he wants to take credit from the superior Assyrian civilisation and give it to useless Semites like Arabs and Aramaeans; certainly, Arabs and Aramaeans are the equivalent of White Trash as far as Semitic peoples are concerned. Semite Trash is what they were and still are.

Anyway, point is, Assyria was an important power base of the Persian empires. Even Herodotus mentioned it in his Histories. Babylonia was also sought after by Alexander the Great.

Zupan

2010-01-12, 17:50

But of course, he didn't want to give the ancient Assyrians credit (he just mentioned Ashurnasirpal briefly). Instead, he wants to take credit for the superior Assyrian civilisation and give it to useless Semites like Arabs and Aramaeans; certainly, Arabs and Aramaeans are the equivalent of White Trash as far as Semitic peoples are concerned. Semite Trash is what they were and still are.

haha :lol:

Most of the pictures he posted of "Semites" were from ancient Assyro-Babylonian culture, for example, the Lamassu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamassu

Anyway, point is, Assyria was an important power base of the Persian empires. Even Herodotus mentioned it in his Histories. Babylonia was also sought after by Alexander the Great.

Hmm yes I know about Babylonia being important for the trade routes, incomes, and for winning over the semites living there to ensure they wouldn't start a uprising ;)

But the Persians built some great cities like: Persepolis

EliasAlucard

2010-01-12, 17:58

But the Persians built some great cities like: PersepolisWhich Alexander ruined. But Assyrian influence was immense even in Persepolis:

A pair of Lamassu's, bulls with the head of a bearded man, stands by the western threshold. Another pair, with wings and a Persian head (Gop�t-Sh�h), stands by the eastern entrance, to reflect the Empire�s power.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis#The_Gate_of_All_Nations

Look at the distance between northern "Iraq" (Assyria) and Persepolis:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/PersepolisMap.png

Despite the geographic distance, they had Lamassu sculptures in Persepolis. This tells us a great deal how influenced the Persians were by Assyrian culture.

Zupan

2010-01-12, 18:00

Which Alexander ruined. But Assyrian influence was immense even in Persepolis:

A pair of Lamassu's, bulls with the head of a bearded man, stands by the western threshold. Another pair, with wings and a Persian head (Gop�t-Sh�h), stands by the eastern entrance, to reflect the Empire�s power.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis#The_Gate_of_All_Nations

Look at the distance between northern "Iraq" (Assyria) and Persepolis:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/PersepolisMap.png

Despite the geographic distance, they had Lamassu sculptures in Persepolis. This tells us a great deal how influenced the Persians were by Assyrian culture.

How can we be sure it wasn't the other way around? ;)

Ehm another thing didn't the persian mythology have some kind of lamassu "look-alike" or did they borrow it from the semitic cultures??

arabturaniran

2010-01-12, 20:55

I think we can not claim someones as semito-centric when being assyrio-centric.
There is nomore Assyrians nowadays all absorbed by "the trash" arameans and arabs.
Also many of the given cultural items here(that are essentially akkadian and babylonian not assyrian)have semitic(arabic,aramean,canaanite)conterparts(such as bull,dhu shara,athra samain rubab...).
If you compare the assyrian laws to the babylonian laws of Hammurabi you will easly see how atroce those assyrians were.

If the Assyrians were so developed why they adopted the alphabet and language and monotheist religions of the west semites?

MadWorld

2010-01-12, 21:09

And there is no source, and not only that your posting the relationship between two empires/cultures that are right beside, so honestly do you not think they is a relationship? Who copied who, is not going to work as there is no proof who had it first, plus what the heck is a "Semite"...

Anyways a troll thread as there is no source, and why doesnt bleck get an infraction for use a slang such as "sand nigger".

arabturaniran

2010-01-12, 21:22

I think that Semitic is not the appropriate designation(being a mythological one),anyway no real (culturally)semite remains nowadays(same as no real Greek nor real Persian).

Arabian will fit well(being as old as 8 th BC and Herodotus and other historians speak always of Arabia and Arabs and not Samia and Semites)if it wasn't that Arab came from the same semitic root as europe(both meaning west from semitic aribi,Asia caming from Akkadian asu=east)and Arabic is more archaic out of all existing Semitic languages.

Real semite would be a Semitic speaking person with a semite monotheist abrahamic religion using a Semitic alphabet and having a semite culture(clothes,achitecture,music,equestry,poetry. ..)

Perhaps Yemenis are the most Semite nation nowadays.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/26/20061213080137!Bab_Al_Yemen_Sanaa_Yemen.jpg

umit

2010-01-14, 05:57

Every culture affects each other,establishes their culture,language,or even race as a mixture;that's the way of improvement of human civilization.It has been the same in the history and will be in the future.

.(even todays,the pronunciation of modern Persan is similar to the one of Iraqi,gulf and levantine dialects of Arabic)

That's the affect of Persian language,every Arabic speaker know this.

The arriving Persians(or let's say the semite of Iran very naturally)adopted semitic Akkadian as their official language and Akkadian aphabet as their official alphabet(later moving to Semitic Aramean as official language and alphabet then to Semitic Arabic and Arabic alphabet).

Akkadian and all the Mesopotamian civilizations,dynesty etc. was mostly established on Sumerians,so do we have right to claim Semits are nothing but a fake Sumerians?

In the modern Persian the word of bread is the Sumerian "nan".
Very interestingly,in the modern Persian coexist different semitic words derived of same semitic roots(for example akkadian GUNAH=sin,and same rooted arabic DJONHE=law enforcement)

If there were very few Sumerian words in Persian,it would be abnormal.All about geography and history.Modern day Turkish has the highlight of Sumerian vocabulary,I'm talking abut 350 Sumerian words.Does it prove anything?

And all those your fotos ''semite bull'',''semite lion'',''Akkadian harp and tanbur'' are decendants of Sumerians,you can find the same in the Sumerian history.
You talk about Shamsh and İshtar,İshtar is Sumerian İnanna,Akkadians only changed the name,all the stories are the same.Semitic god Shamsh is Utu in Sumerian with the same stories.
How do you manage to correlate Dushara with Zoroastra?İt's a local Nebatian god means ''god of Shara mountains''.Actually I'm concerned about Semitic mytology,these claims are useless.

arabturaniran

2010-01-14, 13:58

Shara comes from semitic thara meaning the ground,thara=ground,(latin)terra;thuraya=sky,stars .
Dhu means owner of,master of in semite.
Tanbur has a semitic etymology attested even in north afro-asiatic old Egyptian NBR=to make a sound and is present in semitic langauges(including Arabic nabra,nabara=voice scale,to make sound)its sumerian name is pantur which means little bow in sumerian.
Both these instruments are from the Akkadian semite era.

That's the affect of Persian language,every Arabic speaker know this.
It's rather the opposite way when you listen to "real persian"=dari and Tadjiki as you know modern Persian rose in Khorassan not in Persia.
But if you read old Persian,you will see that it was a very rude language with "impossibly" prunuciable words as khshathra which with the locals(semite and hurro-elamite)pronunciation evolved to modern shahr=city.

If there were very few Sumerian words in Persian,it would be abnormal.All about geography and history.Modern day Turkish has the highlight of Sumerian vocabulary,I'm talking abut 350 Sumerian words.Does it prove anything?

There are no direct Sumerian words in Turkic because at this time "turkic"(I dont mean Turkish speaking Anatolian)were far by yhousand of km in northern Mongolia

And all those your fotos ''semite bull'',''semite lion'',''Akkadian harp and tanbur'' are decendants of Sumerians,you can find the same in the Sumerian history.
You talk about Shamsh and İshtar,İshtar is Sumerian İnanna,Akkadians only changed the name,all the stories are the same.Semitic god Shamsh is Utu in Sumerian with the same stories.
How do you manage to correlate Dushara with Zoroastra?İt's a local Nebatian god means ''god of Shara mountains''.Actually I'm concerned about Semitic
mytology,these claims are useless.

Those cultural items are Semite innovations(similar to other semite innovations as the semite canaanite alphabet and monotheism) dating to the akkadian era(or even the later assyrian era)and not to the sumerian one(also they are distinct from the classical sumerian art)and they have western semite counterparts(ishtar,shamsh,bull worship)but of course we can not deny the fact that symbiosis between sumerians and east semites gave birth to a great culture.
Sumerians appears as shaved and fat persons whereas semites as beardy and lon persons.

1/sumerians(some types in iraq-kuweit have some of those "sumerian" features of beardless and being fat)
http://www.museudantu.org.br/Antiguidade/sumer.jpg

2/semites
http://mysterylinks.info/links/akkadianhead.jpg

Here some "sumerian looking" mesopotamians

http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/dog.jpg

And a sumerian period statue depicting a sumerian man

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16653/16653-h/img/3.jpg

umit

2010-01-14, 21:49

Shara comes from semitic thara meaning the ground,thara=ground,(latin)terra;thuraya=sky,stars .
Dhu means owner of,master of in semite.
First of all your theory about relation between Dhushara and Zoroastra has some date problem.20 years ago this problem wouldn't occur,but now we know that Zoroastra is older than we thought.
''The date of Zoroaster, i.e., the date of composition of the Old Avestan gathas, is unknown. Dates proposed by reputable scholars diverge widely, between the 18th and 10th centuries BCE.''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

You may have a look at to this book belong to John F.Healey,one of the major scholars abuout Nebatian dynesty,you can find everything about Dushara,including the theories about his name.http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=coso-V3gCEAC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=The+religion+of+the+Nabataeans&source=bl&ots=NKQdvApfAC&sig=DoYeSzX8W_rjAZrVHrsVBaVDpo8&hl=tr&ei=QKNrSqvQBdmgjAeKzeymCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Tanbur has a semitic etymology attested even in north afro-asiatic old Egyptian NBR=to make a sound and is present in semitic langauges(including Arabic nabra,nabara=voice scale,to make sound)its sumerian name is pantur which means little bow in sumerian.
Both these instruments are from the Akkadian semite era.

You allready wrote that it's Sumerian,as you know Sumer is older than Akkad:)So how do you insist that it's pure Semitic and Persian just stole it or something?

There are no direct Sumerian words in Turkic because at this time "turkic"(I dont mean Turkish speaking Anatolian)were far by yhousand of km in northern Mongolia

I wrote ''turkish'' not ''turkic''.Read again.

Those cultural items are Semite innovations(similar to other semite innovations as the semite canaanite alphabet and monotheism) dating to the akkadian era(or even the later assyrian era)and not to the sumerian one(also they are distinct from the classical sumerian art)and they have western semite counterparts(ishtar,shamsh,bull worship)but of course we can not deny the fact that symbiosis between sumerians and east semites gave birth to a great culture.

Nice to see you don't deny it.Unless you would be the only one in the world who try to explain Akkadian dynesty and culture without it's Sumerian origines.

arabturaniran

2010-01-14, 22:47

As you know Akakdian society was a dual society including Sumerians and Semites,we of course perhaps will never know if the "anonymous" inventer of the tanbur was a Sumerian that gave it an Akkadian name or the contrary.

The Semite noun of this instrument is Semitic tanbur and its sumerian name is pantur(it's a compound noun pan=small+tur=bow)whereas tanbur is a word built upon the semitic akakdian model of derivation tapul(similar to word like talpush=clothing from the semitic root LBS)form the semitic(or Semito-Egyptian as atetsted in the Egyptian word NBR)root NBR.

Many cultural items,words and even gods in the sumero-akkadian society have both semitic name and sumerian name.

It's a very good example that bilingual societies and cultures could be very succesful and respectful of each others,especially when we know that major party of sumerian texts came to us indirectly through akkadian and assyrian bilingual texts well after the extinction of Sumerian language.

So till now we dont know the ethny(ie mother tongue)of the anonymous person inventor of the tanbur ut the fact that it was in the akkadian era and that there is egyptian counterpart and the root NBR is attested also in Egyptian could be suggestive.

---------- Post added 2010-01-14 at 22:52 ----------

The Oldest Music Notation In the World!
It is Semitic from Ugarit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeP_AS0DqaU

Surena

2010-01-14, 23:08

arabturaniran

2010-01-15, 14:56

What a joke. An idiot hypocrite ressentiment Arab calls Persians "inferior" with their "rude language" while having this in his signature: "Whatever our religion, language or race we are brothers and sisters".

I absolutely sure every non Arab thinks arabic sounds more "rude" than Persian.

The Persians aren't Semites nor were the true Mesopotamians (the Sumerians). On the contrary, it is many of the Iraqis that are pseudosemites.

The Elamites weren't semites either and they inhabited a small part of modern southwestern Iran that is arabic-speaking.

The semites probably came from the northern parts of the middle east, actually. I'd bet they where different in comparison with modern day Arabs in Yemen.

I did not(nor could)say that Persians are "inferior" but older Persian(and to a lesser extent and also Tadjiki Persian)being more rude sounding than modern Persian is a fact.(compare for example old Persian khshathra to modern Persian shahr).

Iraqis are up to 70% hg J and they are surely(both culturally and genetically)more Semite than Persians are Aryans.

Elamites(as well as Kassites and other ancient peoples of Iran)could well have inhabited larger areas but due to the lack of literate societies there,we dont know much of that.

Semite "homeland" is most likely the region of Oman-Yemen,its there were used to coexist so distinct semitic languages(east semitic mehri,west semitic shihi and south semitic soqtori and harsusi)and also it's the land of the greatest diversity of J hg.

I have the impression that Tahrani dialect of modern Persian looks similar in toning and accent to Iraqi and Levantine dialects of Arabic.
But for the case of the standard Arabic and standard Persian languages they both sound somehow rude than say Italian or French but I think standard Arabic as more archaic and ancient language that maintained Arabic sounds as "q","th","dh"...looks more rude than standard Persian(Persian could be more well sounding if not "penalised" by the huge amount of "kh","gh" sounds).

Surena

2010-01-15, 21:31

Arabic is rude sounding. Persian is not especially rude sounding. Persian is a soft language actually, with its unusually long vowels, even if we compare with for example German.

This is how Persian sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9oIZpFFyIY

Tehrani dialect sounds nothing like arabic.

No wonder they talk about Arab donkeys in Iran ...

If we compare with many Europeans in general Persians do have quite high R1a frequencies. And Persians have retained much of their Aryan culture. Google Norouz for example. And by the way Aryan is originally an exclusively Indo-Iranian word which has nothing to do with Europeans.

arabturaniran

2010-01-15, 22:14

I can understand that you love your country so much but these are simple facts without any derogatory involvements.

Yes Persian sounds pleasant but to European ears,it sounds rude like Greek due to the great presence of "kh" and "gh" phonems.

Here a video of Afghanistan and central Asia Persian,it sounds very rude
Sentences like "tshi khob ghashanqi dokhtar"sounds very rude even for an Arab dont even think of Europeans,due to the great extent of "kh","gh","q","sh"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnn80IB36s

If you listen to Iraqi or Levantine Arabic,it mays sound better than Persian for Europeans ears:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj8iDllTJ18

Norouz is middle-eastern related very probably to Akkadian akitu and was not brought or innovated by Indo-Europeans.

As for R1a it's not an indo-european marker,highest rate of R1a in the world is amongst mongoloid Kyrghiz and R1a dont make much more than 25% in Iran in the best figures.
http://thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm
Iran
J=32%(Iraqis 60%,Assyrians 50%)
R1=23%(lower than Semite Assyrians who have 35%R1 and closer to Iraqis who have 18%R1)
C,N,Q(Hg's brought by the Mongols)=12%(Iraqis and Assyrians=0%)
E1b1b1(my Hg)=11%(Iraqis 11%,Assyrian 0%)

Surena

2010-01-15, 22:40

Norouz is middle-eastern related very probably to Akkadian akitu and was not brought or innovated by Indo-Europeans.

No the origins of Norouz is from Central Asia. And similar spring festivals are common within Indo-european cultures. The Akkadian Empire did not have any influence in the Iranian plateau.

As for R1a it's not an indo-european marker,highest rate of R1a in the world is amongst mongoloid Kyrghiz and R1a dont make much more than 25% in Iran in the best figures.
http://thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm
Iran
J=32%(Iraqis 60%,Assyrians 50%)
R1=23%(lower than Semite Assyrians who have 35%R1 and closer to Iraqis who have 18%R1)
C,N,Q(Hg's brought by the Mongols)=12%(Iraqis and Assyrians=0%)
E1b1b1(my Hg)=11%(Iraqis 11%,Assyrian 0%)

51 % of Iranians are Persians. In Iranian Khorasan for example the frequency of R1a1 is as high as 35 %. In the Greater Khorasan the frequencies are much higher and that is because it was the Aryan/Indo-Iranian homeland.

turboratur

2010-03-27, 18:19

There are not studies of Iranian YDNA yet , or if there are I don't see it's map yet !!!!

Ainu

2010-03-27, 19:18

There are not studies of Iranian YDNA yet , or if there are I don't see it's map yet !!!!

Their has been several DNA studies on the Y-DNA of Iran. The Iranian Y-DNA are interesting because they are diverse, and might have come from several sources.

Here is map of the Near East and Caucasus Y-DNA.

http://i44.tinypic.com/4vjlhx.png

J1 lineages are very rare in Iran. J2 being more common though and R1a.

turboratur

2010-03-28, 16:43

Thank you
I saw it , but there are a problem in that map !
It is not obvious ( not clear ) that who are NI ( north Iranian ??!!!) . They are Gilaks or Mazandaranian or Turkamans or people of khorasan province or Azaris or Kurds or Persian in Tehran or Qazvinis ( Caspians ) ????!!!!! All of these peoples have different root and culture and language but live in North of Iran .
Also it is not clear in map who are SI ( south Iranian ?!!! )
They are Persian in Fars province ( persia ) or lurs or bakhtiaris or Arabs or people of Khuzistan ( Elamites ) or Isfahan and yazd's people or Baluch ????!!!! All of these live in south of IRAN but are different people .
Also there are in that map AZ ( people of Republic of Azerbaijan !!! but faked Azarbaijan ) ?!
Azeris in R.Azerbaijan are different to Azaris in NW IRAN ( actual Azarbaijan is only in NW IRAN and Actual AZARIS are people of East Azarbaijan and West Azarbaijan , Ardabil , Zangan provinces in NW IRAN .
I think that map is faked map or is ambiguous map !

Decimator

2010-03-28, 18:29

Humata

2010-03-30, 15:03

A general point about the widely-stated "51% Persian, 24% Azeri" composition of modern Iran.

Effectively, almost all the citizens of Iran are partially Persian in culture, and most certainly speak the Persian language. Under the CIA's classification of a "Persian", it is someone who spoke Persian as their sole mother-tongue. This does not necessarily mean those who also speak Balochi or Azeri are automatically ethnic Balochis or Azeris themselves; there has been plenty of population upheavals in Iran over the past few hundred years. Whether a child speaks Balochi or Azeri is determined by geography as much as it is by ethnic inheritance.

From memory, I recall the above figure stated by the CIA was taken from demographic data that pre-dated the Islamic Revolution (i.e. 1979). Iran's population has sky-rocketed since then, as the population moved steadily towards urbanization by migrating to the larger and more affluent cities, resulting in a need for improved infrastructure and medical care.
Because of the above, most of Iran's demographic growth has taken place in the cities, all of which are bastions of Persian culture. Therefore, the current percentage of "Persians" in Iran is bound to be higher than 51%; a stingy personal estimate from me would be 65%.

As far as "Turkic Y-DNA" is concerned, it is merely a common presumption online that they carried hefty amounts of Q, C, O and N. Considering the fact that Indo-European nomads resided in the steppe region long before the first wave of Turks expanded, it would be reasonable to presume that Y-DNA R was also found in those Turks who made their way to Iran, the Caucasus and Anatolia. Therefore, some of this R1a1 found in East Iran could well be Turkish in origin. Y-DNA knows no ethnic affinity when regions as volatile as Central Asia are concerned.

Lots of these people don't have different origin, just different identifications, you have to learn to distinguish between both

turboratur's posts clearly show he is well-versed to Iran's ethnic composition, and his profile states he is Iranian.
Forgive my bluntness, but I don't think a non-Iranian is in a position to simplify these ethnic divisions in the country as just "different identifications", when Iran has not been sampled wholly on either geographical or ethnic lines. Iran is not Central Asia.

Addressing the map Ainu/Nephilim posted, that was taken from Reguiero et al.'s paper on Iranian Y-DNA. The authors acknowledged the country's immensity and diversity, and simply decided to identify the results through a geographical North-South division. Bear in mind the financial and time constraints that come with traveling across such a rugged country.

They cited the division of "North" Iran and "South" Iran as the land immediately above and below the Dasht-e-Kavir and Dasht-e-Lut deserts. As such, "North Iran" is represented by states like Azerbaijan, Zanjan, Gilan, Mazandaran and Khorasan, while the south is Hormozgan, Khuzestan, Fars and portions of Esfahan and Yazd.

A couple of studies have been published on specific ethnic groups, such as Bakhtiaris, Iranian Arabs and recently the Talysh.
As most of these genetic studies have either tested specific regions or large cities, the results are not an accurate representation of the differences within Iran's ethnic groups. Persian-speakers, Iranian Azeris, Iranian Turkmens, Gilakis, Mazandaranis, Qashqai's and Iranian Kurds are not defined in the same way.

There ends my contribution to an otherwise nonsensical thread written by a Turkish troll.

turboratur

2010-03-30, 17:53

Lots of these people don't have different origin, just different identifications, you have to learn to distinguish between both

IRANIAN ( People of IRAN ) Y DNAs are :
J2 , I , R1a1 , R1b , G , P , K , F , E , J1 , R2 , Q , N
I think it is clear people of IRAN have different origins !
of course they were mixed to each others in ancient times to now .

---------- Post added 2010-03-30 at 17:28 ----------

[QUOTE=Humata;66479]A general point about the widely-stated "51% Persian, 24% Azeri" composition of modern Iran.

Effectively, almost all the citizens of Iran are partially Persian in culture, and most certainly speak the Persian language. Under the CIA's classification of a "Persian", it is someone who spoke Persian as their sole mother-tongue. This does not necessarily mean those who also speak Balochi or Azeri are automatically ethnic Balochis or Azeris themselves; there has been plenty of population upheavals in Iran over the past few hundred years. Whether a child speaks Balochi or Azeri is determined by geography as much as it is by ethnic inheritance.

From memory, I recall the above figure stated by the CIA was taken from demographic data that pre-dated the Islamic Revolution (i.e. 1979). Iran's population has sky-rocketed since then, as the population moved steadily towards urbanization by migrating to the larger and more affluent cities, resulting in a need for improved infrastructure and medical care.
Because of the above, most of Iran's demographic growth has taken place in the cities, all of which are bastions of Persian culture. Therefore, the current percentage of "Persians" in Iran is bound to be higher than 51%; a stingy personal estimate from me would be 65%.

Persians ?!!
The language that speak by 51% ( or 65% ) of people of Iran is not Persian language . Persian language was overthrown after than Abab muslims attacked and migrated to Iran and DARI language was replaced by poets and Turkic rulers ( such Ghaznavian and Seljugian and Kharazmshahian ) from East Iran ( now north Afghanistan and Tadjikistan ) and regularly spreaded to west Iran . now most people such you and even in IRAN think that their language is Persian but it is not .
Dari language is not persian language , Dari language is from of a group of Scythian nomads in central Asia and north Afghanistan . but both languages ( persian and dari had same root from very old time ) even some Iranian poets presented ( introdused )themselves and their language in their poets ( complete works ) as PERSIANs and they don't understand DARI language !

As far as "Turkic Y-DNA" is concerned, it is merely a common presumption online that they carried hefty amounts of Q, C, O and N. Considering the fact that Indo-European nomads resided in the steppe region long before the first wave of Turks expanded, it would be reasonable to presume that Y-DNA R was also found in those Turks who made their way to Iran, the Caucasus and Anatolia. Therefore, some of this R1a1 found in East Iran could well be Turkish in origin. Y-DNA knows no ethnic affinity when regions as volatile as Central Asia are concerned.

Q,C,N is very very low between most Turks . Even most UnTurk people have more these YDNAs . Most Turkic people such : Tartar , Qyrqiz , Uighur , Turkaman are :
R1a1 , R1b , I , J2 Ydnas .

Surena

2010-03-30, 23:10

Humata

2010-03-30, 23:24

Persians ?!!
The language that speak by 51% ( or 65% ) of people of Iran is not Persian language . Persian language was overthrown after than Abab muslims attacked and migrated to Iran and DARI language was replaced by poets and Turkic rulers ( such Ghaznavian and Seljugian and Kharazmshahian ) from East Iran ( now north Afghanistan and Tadjikistan ) and regularly spreaded to west Iran . now most people such you and even in IRAN think that their language is Persian but it is not .
Dari language is not persian language , Dari language is from of a group of Scythian nomads in central Asia and north Afghanistan . but both languages ( persian and dari had same root from very old time ) even some Iranian poets presented ( introdused )themselves and their language in their poets ( complete works ) as PERSIANs and they don't understand DARI language !

Wrong, illogical and silly. Really, who's been convincing you that Persian isn't actually Persian?

To paraphrase the history of the Persian language...
1) Persian's use was revived by the poet Ferdowsi after the Arab/Islamic invasion
2) Dari, the variant of Persian spoken by Afghans and other East Iranians, existed in the region long before native Persians fled Iran, as that region had long been within the cultural sphere of the Achaemenids, Parthians and Sassanians.
3) Any differences between standard Persian and Dari Persian are because of three factors;
- Archaic pre-Persian influence from older Iranian languages
- Different levels of influence from other languages (i.e. Russian in Tajiki)
- Independent developments in vocabulary and syntax
4) Modern Persian is very close to the variant spoken in Sassanian times
5) Modern Persian is split into two principle forms; informal and traditional, with the former having a considerable amount of Arab loanwords. The type you'll hear in Tehran's bazaars is obviously informal.

All of the above can be sourced at my leisure. Can you say the same for whatever you wrote?

Q,C,N is very very low between most Turks . Even most UnTurk people have more these YDNAs . Most Turkic people such : Tartar , Qyrqiz , Uighur , Turkaman are :
R1a1 , R1b , I , J2 Ydnas .

Wrong.

Though not being definitive markers, frequencies of Q, C and N are all higher in Turkic-speaking ethnic groups than non-Turkish ones.

Haplogroup I appears to be a predominantly European lineage, potentially of Anatolian or Caucasian origin. It's frequency in Asia is minimal at best.

I'll leave you to contend with the fact that North Altaians are over 36.7% Q.

---------- Post added 2010-03-30 at 23:26 ----------

This is correct. The CIA numbers are very outdated.

63,3 % of the Iranians were Persians in 2004:
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Iran_Languages_lg.jpg
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/maps.shtml

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Demography

Thank you; it is welcoming to see my estimate was spot-on.

Furthermore, given the rate at which Iran's population continues to grow, I predict the country will be over 70% Persian within the next five years, if it hasn't reached that figure already.

turboratur

2010-04-02, 18:08

Wrong, illogical and silly. Really, who's been convincing you that Persian isn't actually Persian?

To paraphrase the history of the Persian language...
1) Persian's use was revived by the poet Ferdowsi after the Arab/Islamic invasion
2) Dari, the variant of Persian spoken by Afghans and other East Iranians, existed in the region long before native Persians fled Iran, as that region had long been within the cultural sphere of the Achaemenids, Parthians and Sassanians.
3) Any differences between standard Persian and Dari Persian are because of three factors;
- Archaic pre-Persian influence from older Iranian languages
- Different levels of influence from other languages (i.e. Russian in Tajiki)
- Independent developments in vocabulary and syntax
4) Modern Persian is very close to the variant spoken in Sassanian times
5) Modern Persian is split into two principle forms; informal and traditional, with the former having a considerable amount of Arab loanwords. The type you'll hear in Tehran's bazaars is obviously informal.

All of the above can be sourced at my leisure. Can you say the same for whatever you wrote?

Wrong.

Though not being definitive markers, frequencies of Q, C and N are all higher in Turkic-speaking ethnic groups than non-Turkish ones.

Haplogroup I appears to be a predominantly European lineage, potentially of Anatolian or Caucasian origin. It's frequency in Asia is minimal at best.

I'll leave you to contend with the fact that North Altaians are over 36.7% Q.

---------- Post added 2010-03-30 at 23:26 ----------

Thank you; it is welcoming to see my estimate was spot-on.

Furthermore, given the rate at which Iran's population continues to grow, I predict the country will be over 70% Persian within the next five years, if it hasn't reached that figure already.

NO
1- Language of Ferdosi ( shahname ) is not Persian but is DARI .
Persian language was different from Dari . Persian language was from west Iran ( Persian nomads ) and Dari language was from East Iran ( now Tadjikestan and north Afghanistan from a group of Scythian that have lived in VALLEYs ).
2- Parthians were not Persians ( even they were enemy ) . Some scholars ( even in shahname ) stated that Sasanian were not Persian , They were from SAS ( SIS : Sacae : scythian ) from India ( Indi-scythian ) that migrated to Iran . Only Hakhamaneshian ( Achaemenids ) were actual Persians . Persian never live ( or lived ) in East Iran and Afghanistan . Bacterian and soghdian and some scythian were in Afghanistan , not Persian . Persian were nomads in north of Black sea ( modern ukrain ) and migrated to NW Iran and then migrated or attackted to south Iran ( Elamites Land such now Fars and Khuzestan provinces ) .
3 - There are not modern persian language . Dari is not Persian . Dari language was replaced to Arabed Persian ( Arabiced pahlavi ) by Turkic rulers such ghaznavian and saljugian and kharazmshahian and their poets such Ferdosi , Roodaki , Sanaii , ...
4 - Old Persian language were very similar to now Russian language ( Russian are not Slavs but are Nordics and old persians were Nordics but now most persians are not Nordics . )
The history that you studied was faked history or story !

N Ydna is very more between people of FINLAND and BALTIC countries . They are not Turks !
I is the second Ydna between TARTARs ( first is R1a1 )
Q is more in your persian in East Iran .
C is Mongol YDNA and is 0% between most Turks .
Or your Turks are different similar your persians !
The greater part of YDNA between Turks :
Turcomans : R1b , J2 , R1a1
Tatars : R1a1 , I
Kyrgiz : R1a1
Anatulian Turks ( they are not Turk in race but in language ) : J2 , R1b , E
Uighur : R1b , J2 , R1a1
Uzbaks : R1a1 , R1b , J2

MadWorld

2010-04-09, 04:03

NO
1- Language of Ferdosi ( shahname ) is not Persian but is DARI .
Persian language was different from Dari . Persian language was from west Iran ( Persian nomads ) and Dari language was from East Iran ( now Tadjikestan and north Afghanistan from a group of Scythian that have lived in VALLEYs ).
2- Parthians were not Persians ( even they were enemy ) . Some scholars ( even in shahname ) stated that Sasanian were not Persian , They were from SAS ( SIS : Sacae : scythian ) from India ( Indi-scythian ) that migrated to Iran . Only Hakhamaneshian ( Achaemenids ) were actual Persians . Persian never live ( or lived ) in East Iran and Afghanistan . Bacterian and soghdian and some scythian were in Afghanistan , not Persian . Persian were nomads in north of Black sea ( modern ukrain ) and migrated to NW Iran and then migrated or attackted to south Iran ( Elamites Land such now Fars and Khuzestan provinces ) .
3 - There are not modern persian language . Dari is not Persian . Dari language was replaced to Arabed Persian ( Arabiced pahlavi ) by Turkic rulers such ghaznavian and saljugian and kharazmshahian and their poets such Ferdosi , Roodaki , Sanaii , ...
4 - Old Persian language were very similar to now Russian language ( Russian are not Slavs but are Nordics and old persians were Nordics but now most persians are not Nordics . )
The history that you studied was faked history or story !

N Ydna is very more between people of FINLAND and BALTIC countries . They are not Turks !
I is the second Ydna between TARTARs ( first is R1a1 )
Q is more in your persian in East Iran .
C is Mongol YDNA and is 0% between most Turks .
Or your Turks are different similar your persians !
The greater part of YDNA between Turks :
Turcomans : R1b , J2 , R1a1
Tatars : R1a1 , I
Kyrgiz : R1a1
Anatulian Turks ( they are not Turk in race but in language ) : J2 , R1b , E
Uighur : R1b , J2 , R1a1
Uzbaks : R1a1 , R1b , J2

Dari is not an eastern iranian language, it is a western iranian language spoken by eastern iranians due to the colinization of western iranians...

If Dari was an eastern language it would sound a lot more like pashtun, or not understandable by iranians (yes i know some iranians cant understand dari, but the language is very similar).

Correct, Parthavs were not Parsis, however Sassanids were, and Parthavs have more of a connection to scythians than Sassanids did...

How many iranians live in eastern iran anyways? Almost everyone lives in the north and west regions.

Russian was never closely related to old persian, and Russians. It was closely related to sanskirt. On average russians are not even Nordics, and this nordic theory of Iranians-Persians being nordic is definite garbage since there are no depictions of people in Iran that even exhibit nordic traits. Look at a coin, or some statue you see some bearded, long nosed man....

turboratur

2010-04-18, 10:31

Dari is not an eastern iranian language, it is a western iranian language spoken by eastern iranians due to the colinization of western iranians...

If Dari was an eastern language it would sound a lot more like pashtun, or not understandable by iranians (yes i know some iranians cant understand dari, but the language is very similar).

Correct, Parthavs were not Parsis, however Sassanids were, and Parthavs have more of a connection to scythians than Sassanids did...

How many iranians live in eastern iran anyways? Almost everyone lives in the north and west regions.

Russian was never closely related to old persian, and Russians. It was closely related to sanskirt. On average russians are not even Nordics, and this nordic theory of Iranians-Persians being nordic is definite garbage since there are no depictions of people in Iran that even exhibit nordic traits. Look at a coin, or some statue you see some bearded, long nosed man....

Dari was from East Iran ( now north Afghanisatan and Tajikestan ) and Balkh. Language of people of West Iran were PAHLAVI ( NORTH and SOUTH accents ) . Or even poets in old Azarbaijan ( only Iranian Azarbaijan ) such mahan kashfi , ohadi maragheii , maghrebi tabrizi , homam tabrizi , ... stated and presented themselves in his poets as PERSIAN and their languages ( Old AZARI ) as Persian language and they don't understand DARI language and stated that Dari is not Persian language . most historians stated that old Azari and Khorasani and other north accents of PAHLAVI language were very similar to each others but were very different with DARI . Actual Persian language was PAHLAVI that mixed with Arabic language . then Dari language replaced to Pahlavi ( Persian ) language by Turkic rulers such Gaznavian and Seljugian , Kharezmshahian , ... and their poets such ROODAKI , FERDOSI , SANAII GAZNAVI , KAIIAM , ATTAR , MOLAVI , ANVARI , SAADI , HAFEZ and ... . and Pahlavi ovethorned and replaced to DARI and TURKIC .
even an Anatulian Turk researcher OLIAYE CHELEBI stated in his book " siahat nameh " that people of TABRIZ and AZARBAIJAN don't understand TURKIC ! and don't understand DARI ! and speak " not understandable language " . It was PAHLAVI or actual PERSIAN .

Language of Perspolis inscriptions ( not Dari ) have very similarities to Russian language . I think you don't know anything from this .