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Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-15, 12:05
A fact confirmed by DNA tests is that there is only minor genetic variation between the peoples of Europe, the Baltic Finns included. Meanwhile, tests on the cell nucleus indicate that Baltic Finnish genes differ to some extent from those of other Europeans.
The Finnish people is probably the worlds best studied population. DNA, medical and forensic research in Finland is of highest international standard and there are very few mysteries left to unravel.
Therefore it’s surprising to see all sorts of myths and stereotypes still being upheld on the Internet.

DNA scientists class the Finns as Indo-Europeans, or descendants of western genetic stock. But because "Indo-European" is a term borrowed from linguistics, it is misleading in the broader context of bioanthropology. DNA scientists work within a time frame of tens of thousands of years, whereas the evolution of Indo-European languages, as indeed of all European language groups (Finno-Ugrian included) is confined to a much briefer time span.
Autosomal DNA studies naturally puts Finns in the European (call it Caucasoid if you wish) cluster but with a close up we can see that Finns tend to deviate away from their closest neighbours Swedes, Estonians and northwestern Russians in a direction of their own.
This deviation is because of genetical drift in a small and relatively isolated population.

A common fixed idea is that Finns are genetically different to Scandinavians, Balts and Russians based on their positioning in genetical charts. One reason is thought to be that 58% of Finnish men carry N1c, so the “founding population” of the Finns must have mostly carried N1c and have arrived from the East?
Using scientific data, I have to spoil the theory.
The rather high frequency of N1c is most likely inflated due to genetic drift and bottlenecks, which can affect Y-chromosomes. In other words, Baltic-Finnish peoples did not arrive from the east as a ready people.

Finns are DNA-wise identical to all other populations around the Baltic sea and do not carry any Y-dna or Mtdna haplotypes unseen in other populations. If you want to find them, look into the genepool of the Swedes where you can find haplogroups like Y-dna Q and K, Mtdna X that have been there for ages and does not come from recent immigration.

As stated, the peopling of Finland has not happened in one big wave of migration from the east. Just like in all other northern countries, trickles of people found their way to the geographical area of Fennoscandia during a very long period of time. And they came from different directions.

“… the population history of the Baltic Sea region, known to be affected by a variety of migrations and genetic barriers, was analyzed using both mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal data. Over 1200 samples from Finland, Sweden, Karelia, Estonia, Setoland, Latvia and Lithuania were genotyped for 18 Y-chromosomal biallelic polymorphisms and 9 STRs, in addition to analyzing 17 coding region polymorphisms and the HVS1 region from the mtDNA. It was shown that the populations surrounding the Baltic Sea are genetically similar, which suggests that it has been an important route not only for cultural transmission but also for population migration.”T. Lappalainen et al. “Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region” 2008

In a simplified chronological order the earliest arrivals came from continental Europe. After that people from the Northeast maybe as far away as from west Siberia arrived. Later also migration from central Europe, Volga/Ural and then finally from northwestern Europe. The time span is 10 000 years.


“The settlement of the Baltic Sea region advanced rapidly after the Ice Age, beginning about 14,000 BC in Northern Germany and 10,000 BC in Finland. All the populations have their roots mainly in Central Europe, although some eastern influence has been observed among the Finns.” E. Salmela et.al. “Genome-Wide Analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms Uncovers Population Structure in Northern Europe” 2008

Finns have lived relatively isolated and we know from other isolated populations (Icelanders, Sardinians) how genetical drift affects the population making the now living ancestors looking genetically very different from the original inhabitants because of a faster rate of evolution. That is why MtDNA taken from medieval Icelandic bones were closer to modern day Norwegians and Swedes than the Icelanders living today.
(A. Helgason et al. Sequences From First Settlers Reveal Rapid Evolution in Icelandic mtDNA Pool 2009)

Living isolated, not being affected by the usual migration and mixing of peoples, increases a small populations distances to surrounding, more densely populated areas. Regional migration causes genes to mix and making people speaking totally different languages (French/Italian/German/Romany in Switzerland) or practicing totally different religions (catholic Croats, muslim Bosnians and orthodox Serbs) look genetically similar.

The effect of genetic drift is larger in small populations, and smaller in large populations.
For an excellent illustration on how genetical drift works, take a look at Wikipedias
marble ball analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Random_sampling_genetic_drift.gif

As you can see a founding population can consist of 50/50 or 30/30/30 of each given gene but can after only five generations have totally different allele frequencies because of random drift. It is therefore highly likely that a Finnish founding population have been fairly mixed and very similar in structure to their Scandinavian and Baltic neighbors and have not consisted of more people from Volga/Ural than from Central or Northwestern Europe as the high frequency of N1c leads us to believe.

Bottlenecks too have their part in reducing Finnish DNA diversity. Razib Khan, Scienceblogs:
“Once a population goes through a bottleneck a great deal of its genetic information is gone due to imperfect sampling of the pre-collapse variation in the post-collapse survivors; it takes time, either through migration or mutation, for genetic variation to be replenished”

Another comment from Razib Khan at Scienceblogs:
“Fenno-Scandinavia was settled from the south within the last 10,000 years, so founder effects would be more operative among these populations (this trend exists on a pan-European scale from south to north). Additionally, the ecological context of northern Europe tends to result low populations, which increase the power of genetic drift to fix rare variants. Finland in particular is marginally arable, while even Sweden exhibited a relatively late adoption of agriculture. Migration is a population genetic parameter which works against drift to reduce between population barriers.”


“Another factor behind the outlier status of Finland could be admixture with other populations outside the studied region. Indeed, the comparison to the Asian HapMap samples revealed interesting differences between the studied populations, with the Nordic populations and especially Eastern Finns appearing to harbour a significantly stronger Asian affinity than Central Europeans. A similar eastern influence has been observed in Y-chromosomal, mitochondrial DNA and autosomal studies of the Finns, consistently with archaeological and linguistic data. A small degree of Saami admixture has been observed among the Finns and could also contribute to the differentiation observed in this study, but it could not be detected in the absence of reference data. Thus, the possible eastern contribution observed among the Finns supports the earlier studies done with a more limited number of markers, although a full synthesis of past migration waves is beyond the scope of this study and would require additional data.”E. Salmela et.al. “Genome-Wide Analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms Uncovers Population Structure in Northern Europe” 2008

The genetical distance between Finns and Saamis is almost as big as between Saamis and everyone else. Infact, the genetical distance between Finns and Italians, the largest genetical gap within Europe (Saami’s excluded), is smaller.
There are regions in northern and north eastern Finland where there traditionally have been intermarriage between Finns and Saamis.
The town of Kuusamo is one such place and the genetical gap between Finns from Kuusamo and Helsinki is almost as large as the gap between Finns and Estonians because of this admixture.


“The eastern elements in the mtDNA variation of the Baltic Sea region are intertwined with the Saami influence. Recent studies of the mtDNA variation among the Saami show a link to the Volga-Ural region (Tambets et al. 2004, Ingman & Gyllensten 2006), which is now shown to exist also among the Karelians and, to a lesser degree, among the other populations from the Baltic Sea region as well. Additionally, the presence of U4 in the Eastern Baltic Sea populations may represent eastern influence, since it is typical for the Volga-Ural region (Bermisheva et al. 2002). The high diversity of this haplogroup in the Baltic region, observable in the haplotype network, suggests a complex history, and rules genetic drift out as a cause of the high frequency. All in all, these mtDNA haplogroups may be maternal reflections of the eastern influence that can be most clearly observed in the Y-chromosomal haplogroup N3.”T. Lappalainen et al. “Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region” 2008

But there is Eastern influence. Of course, but Eastern is a wide term and in the case of the Baltic-Finnish peoples it does not stretch any further east than to the Volga/Urals and to other Finno-Ugrian peoples.
The Volga/Ural region is the eastern most geographical region of Europe and a minor genetical contribution, often called Uralic, from this area is a fact.
As with all European populations there is a Eurasian, Asian, Middle Eastern and African contribution of varying degree.
We know that Bulgarians, Scandinavians, Hungarians, Greeks, Spaniards and Czechs all have an Asian component. So the Finns are not really standing out in this perspective either.
Well, in a sense they do. Most of the Eastern component in Finns is likely to be ancient, possibly more than 4000 years old or more, whereas the Asian component in the other peoples listed is from more recent and often well documented migrations from central Asia to Europe. Using the logic applied on anthroboards about these migrations, everyone are foreigners in Europe.


“It seems probable that early migrations from Finno-Ugric sources affected the whole country, whereas subsequent migrations from Scandinavia had an impact mainly on the western parts of the country. The contacts between Finland and neighboring Finno-Ugric, Scandinavian and Baltic regions are evident. However, there is no support for recent migrations from Siberia and Central Europe. Our results emphasize the importance of incorporating Y-chromosomal data to reveal the population substructure which is often left undetected in mitochondrial DNA variation. Early assumptions of the homogeneity of the isolated Finnish population have now proven to be false, which may also have implications for future association studies.”T. Lappalainen et al. “Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective” 2006

What do you think about the genetical drift and bottlenecks as the main explanation to the outlier stattus of the Finns?

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-15, 12:47
What do you think about the genetical drift and bottlenecks as the main explanation to the outlier stattus of the Finns?

Massive population growth since 1000AD plays large part for creating the drift. Bottleneck literally means expansion from few. People usually think it as some kind of destruction of genepool (ie. climatic catastrophy etc) while it really is population expansion. Now, around the last days of Viking age population of all Finland was roughly 50.000 (estimated from many different sources). People lived not further that 200 - 300 km's from the coast (along the river routes).

Only major population movement into Finland after that has been migration from Central Sweden which mainly had local effect at Bothian coast. This happened 1200's - 1300's. There was also migration to south coast from Central Sweden but much much less. After that no major migration to area of Finland. Finland has been contributing country, not receiver.

All living Finns are decended from those 50.000 + few thousend medieval Swedes. Today we number over 5 million. The Bottleneck of Finns is actually major population growth.

What comes to N1c1-nonsense:
http://i49.tinypic.com/ilvt4k.jpg

So if N1c1 should be connected to some phenotype in case of Finland that phenotype should be Nordic. Anyway, it should be clear to all that phenotypes and haplogroups have no connection what so ever.

Evi
2010-01-16, 11:54
MRM and Karhunkynsi you both have forgotten or don't (want to) see something.

Finns are "outliers" only in comparision to Central or Western Europeans. If you would add Eastern Europeans to charts, especially such as Northern Russians, you would see that Finns clearly cluster with them. Genetic drift certainly isn't main explanation about the situation of Finns in comparision to Central or Western Europeans.

Finns aren't "outliers", they cluster very well with Northern Russians, even as far away as in Vologda region (look at some map, and count how many km's is Vologda far away from Finland). I really don't understand all this "genetic drift" argument, at least that it is put as main argument. Probably MRM wants to ignore fact that Finns are so close to Northern Russians, instead, he tries to fool everybody with these "genetic drift" issues. If I am not mistaken, it is an attempt to "western-wash" the Finnish people, eh? Don't misunderstand me, I don't say that Finns are "eastern", in the end terms "western" and "eastern" are very relative. I've personally been in Vologda town, and have seen the people there. They don't look much different from Finns.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-16, 12:34
North Russia is product of recent language change. Certainly Finns and North Russians (such as the Vologda Russians, Pomors etc) share lot of ancestry. No doubt about that. Then again there are genetic components at North Russia which are alien to Finns. Such as Slavs and also more exotic Siberian and Asian groups (Samoyeds, Mongols, Tartars etc). Anyhow North Russians have lot of N1c1 and also I1 which are typical Finnish/Balto-Finnic signature. Culture wise Finns and North Russians belong to two different zones and after collapse (destruction) of Novgorod there havent been that much contacts with the two groups, except constant warfare. You completely seem to ignore that Finns actually share lot of genetic ancestry also with Northwest Europeans and also firmly belong to that Scandinavian/Lutheran-Protestant culture sphere.

Evi
2010-01-16, 13:30
North Russia is product of recent language change. Certainly Finns and North Russians (such as the Vologda Russians, Pomors etc) share lot of ancestry. No doubt about that. Then again there are genetic components at North Russia which are alien to Finns. Such as Slavs and also more exotic Siberian and Asian groups (Samoyeds, Mongols, Tartars etc).
I don't know what to think about this post, because it reveals lack of knowledge in many fields.

I don't know which genetic components you talk about, but you should be more precise about describing which ones. Don't mix Samoyeds, Mongols and Tatars into one bag, they are different populations. :whoco: And I don't think the Samoyeds or Mongols have really been in Vologda region, at least I didn't see Mongoloid looking people with straight black hair or squinty dark eyes in Vologda train station. I am sure they would look out of place there. There were some Pontid looking guys though, so surely Southern Slavics have came there at some point of time, but I don't know how long time ago it happened - in Soviet Union times, when migration was common thing, or earlier.



Culture wise Finns and North Russians belong to two different zones and after collapse (destruction) of Novgorod there havent been that much contacts with the two groups, except constant warfare.
It's very hard to discuss on this issue, we both definately don't know much in this field. I don't want to go with some pomposous arguments without solid background.


You completely seem to ignore that Finns actually share lot of genetic ancestry also with Northwest Europeans and also firmly belong to that Scandinavian/Lutheran-Protestant culture sphere.
No, I don't ignore that Finns share lot of genetic ancestry with Northwest Europeans, and I never have denied it.

In regards to Scandinavian/Lutheran-Protestant culture sphere - what it has to do with genetics? I don't deny the role of religions in shaping of populations, f.e. the Orthodox tended not to marry with Protestants etc. But how long time existed this religious influence in Northern Europe and especially among common countryside population? Few hundred years? Maybe many coustryside people actually were fake "christians" and continued to practise paganism? How much this christian influence and division into Protestants and Orthodox could influence the population in Northern Europe? Don't you suspect that the Finnic-Baltic people, who accepted Orthodox faith later were also the ones, who became Russianised?

aeon
2010-01-16, 13:57
Culture wise Finns and North Russians belong to two different zones and after collapse (destruction) of Novgorod there havent been that much contacts with the two groups, except constant warfare.

Was it not the same before the collapse of Novgorod? Or maybe you count the destruction of Abo as an act of friendship? :D

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-16, 16:36
Was it not the same before the collapse of Novgorod? Or maybe you count the destruction of Abo as an act of friendship? :D

Or Tavastian attack to Old Ladoga, Karelian attack to Sigtuna etc. Anyway, that was typical late Viking Age stuff. All groups back then were opportunistic and attacked their neighbours if given a chance. I dont count those as full scale war as the states were not really consolidated yet, not Sweden nor Novgorod. They were more like ledung-trips, loot and rob.

What I ment was commercial connections which existed even pre-Novgorod times and during Novgorod's existance, were cutted of after Novgorodland was occupied and annexed by Moscovia (Slavo-Tatars). Constant war between Sweden and Moscovia started around 1495 and lasted until 1809. 300 years of fighting began allmost right after Moscovia had destroyed Novgorod. There was little possibility for peacefull contacts between us "East Swedes" and those "North Moscovites".

I dont think destruction of Novgorod was was only reason why the links were cutted off. Ivan the Terrible's Oprichina was primarily executed on the old Novgorodland which obviously included North Russians and was largely Finnic. Imo, subject of Oprichina and Slavification of Russian North is not studied enough.

http://www.kulichki.com/~gumilev/maps/r2r18.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oprichina

Anyhow, if there was slight possibility for North Russians to maintain their old connections to west they were ended by Oprichina. New connections were only brought up with English Moscovia Company, and they indeed recorded that language spoken at Cargapoli was different than the Tartar-language (Kipchack Turk) used in Moscovia as lingua franca. Also the names of the merchant cities of Russian North are quite revealing; Kargopol (Karhu->Bear) or another old trading city Ustyug, which perfectly correlates with typical Balto-Finnic naming scheme, compare fex. Joensuu in Finland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F_% D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%81.%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB.%D0%BA% D0%BD%D1%8F%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE_15 93_%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%B 5%D0%BD_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8B_%D0%9 0%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%94%D0%B6 %D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BD_% D0%B8_%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4_%D0%B4% D0%B5_%D0%99%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5.jpg

Jerome Gorsay from English Moscovia Company wrote:
"The tsar and his cronies, unmerciful Tatars…"

---------- Post added 2010-01-16 at 16:44 ----------



I don't know which genetic components you talk about, but you should be more precise about describing which ones. Don't mix Samoyeds, Mongols and Tatars into one bag, they are different populations. :whoco:


Learn how to read first and blame people onlu after that. I didnt put them into one bag at all.



And I don't think the Samoyeds or Mongols have really been in Vologda region, at least I didn't see Mongoloid looking people with straight black hair or squinty dark eyes in Vologda train station.


Mongols burned down Vologda 1273 AD.



I am sure they would look out of place there. There were some Pontid looking guys though, so surely Southern Slavics have came there at some point of time, but I don't know how long time ago it happened - in Soviet Union times, when migration was common thing, or earlier.


So one more genetic component that is alien to Finns but attested at North Russia.



In regards to Scandinavian/Lutheran-Protestant culture sphere - what it has to do with genetics? I don't deny the role of religions in shaping of populations, f.e. the Orthodox tended not to marry with Protestants etc.


It has lot to do with genetics. Like you state in your next sentance.



But how long time existed this religious influence in Northern Europe and especially among common countryside population? Few hundred years? Maybe many coustryside people actually were fake "christians" and continued to practise paganism? How much this christian influence and division into Protestants and Orthodox could influence the population in Northern Europe? Don't you suspect that the Finnic-Baltic people, who accepted Orthodox faith later were also the ones, who became Russianised?

See my response to aeon. Orthodox faith certainly was one major component in Slavification of North Russia but not only one.

Evi
2010-01-16, 19:02
I would otherwise argee to your arguments, Karhunkynsi, but explain please why Finns cluster so tightly with Northern Russians? How comes that these two populations, who were runned by two enemy states, and followed different branches of Christianity in the end reveal genetic closiness?

According to your opinions, it should have happened that assimilated Finnics under Moscowite rule should have started to "drift away" from Finns, and nowdays should be really different genetic-wise, but it seemingly didn't happen so? What the hell, eh?

Surely, these two populations aren't identical, but they surprisingly cluster together in all charts I've seen.

aeon
2010-01-16, 20:17
Or Tavastian attack to Old Ladoga, Karelian attack to Sigtuna etc. Anyway, that was typical late Viking Age stuff. All groups back then were opportunistic and attacked their neighbours if given a chance. I dont count those as full scale war as the states were not really consolidated yet, not Sweden nor Novgorod. They were more like ledung-trips, loot and rob.

You are lying as usual. Both Sweden and Novgorod were fully consolidated in the 14th century.


Constant war between Sweden and Moscovia started around 1495 and lasted until 1809. 300 years of fighting began allmost right after Moscovia had destroyed Novgorod. There was little possibility for peacefull contacts between us "East Swedes" and those "North Moscovites".

There was constant war also before 1495. Nothing changed.


Tartar-language (Kipchack Turk) used in Moscovia as lingua franca.

Too much Koskenkorva did you no good.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-16, 21:36
You are lying as usual. Both Sweden and Novgorod were fully consolidated in the 14th century.


Wake up aeon dear. Turku was burned down by Novgorodians (likely Karelians) 1318. Treaty of Nöteborg was made 1323. Very good solid consolidated states which didnt even have an border.

1187 when Karelians (the real Rus' ) burned down Sigtuna they werent even part of Novgorod.

Eriks Chronic:
"They went on a and calm one that in the storm to Mälaren and they stayed quite secretly in the archipelago of Svea usually with the secret army. Once they got such a notion that they burned Sigtuna, burned it along the bottoms and the town did not get help anywhere. The archbishop Jon was killed there and many heathens were happy from it that the Christians were so unlucky. And the whole of Karelia and Russia were happy about it."



There was constant war also before 1495. Nothing changed.


Except the warring parties.. You think Slavo-Tatars are natives of Baltic sea ?

---------- Post added 2010-01-16 at 21:45 ----------


I would otherwise argee to your arguments, Karhunkynsi, but explain please why Finns cluster so tightly with Northern Russians? How comes that these two populations, who were runned by two enemy states, and followed different branches of Christianity in the end reveal genetic closiness?


Because we share ancestry. Besides "tightly" is bit too relative. Finnish, Estonian, Karelian and North Russian share ancestry. That should be descriptive enough. All have their own history and that means also population history. Tightly is illusion. Even inside Finland there are differencies. Genetic boundary in Finland is pretty much the same as border of Nöteborg Treaty.

Thats also traditional border between Finns/Tavastians and Karelians (and I guess, North Russians).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Treaty-of-N%C3%B6teborg.png



According to your opinions, it should have happened that assimilated Finnics under Moscowite rule should have started to "drift away" from Finns, and nowdays should be really different genetic-wise, but it seemingly didn't happen so? What the hell, eh?


It did happend. Also North Russia has genes that Finland completely misses. Slavs, Tatars, Mongols etc.



Surely, these two populations aren't identical, but they surprisingly cluster together in all charts I've seen.

It is hard to kill Balto-Fennic genes.

Polako
2010-01-17, 03:59
Sharing with Finns and Russians at deCODEme is the best way to learn about their genetics IMO.

What I found is that Finns show a lot of genealogical kinship with each other (ie. they all seem to share ancestors within the past 500 years), but at the same time they also exhibit plenty of diversity in terms of ancestral components.

In regards to intra-European diversity, some Finns are positioned deep within the cluster made up of my Russian contacts, others are closer to Scandinavians, but most are somewhere in between. Here are a couple of gifs I made of the deCODEme Europe 1-2-3 plot.

Gif 1 (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/group_PCA_flags.gif)

Gif 2 (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/group_PCA_north.gif)

The picture changes at inter-continental level. All the North/Central Euros cluster together, with the Icelandic and Orcadian reference groups. On the other hand, the Finns are always next door to the east, with the North Russians from Vologda. My Russian contacts are all over the place, from the North/Central Euro zone to the Vologda cluster, and sometimes beyond. This is a plot drawn up by Evon (he doesn't seem to have very many Russians on his sharing list, but it illustrates my point anyway).

Global (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/group_PCA_north.gif)

So there seems to be a lot of similarity between Finns and many Russians, both at intra-European and inter-continental levels. But I suspect that there'd be much less similarity shown by Finns and Southern Russians/Ukrainians. I'll look into that when I add some of the latter.

In any case, there's really nothing much to argue about here. If anyone's still confused, then save a little money and get your ass over toe deCODEme. Using their tools is like having your own population genetics lab on your laptop, with more updates on the way soon I hear.

Loxias
2010-01-17, 06:30
Could we say that Russians are Finns with a Southern Russian input instead of a Scandinavian input?

aeon
2010-01-17, 11:00
Except the warring parties.. You think Slavo-Tatars are natives of Baltic sea ?[COLOR="Silver"]

Could you be more specific about Tatar and Mongol genes in Russians?

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-18, 08:35
[QUOTE]Finns are "outliers" only in comparision to Central or Western Europeans. If you would add Eastern Europeans to charts, especially such as Northern Russians, you would see that Finns clearly cluster with them. Genetic drift certainly isn't main explanation about the situation of Finns in comparision to Central or Western Europeans.
Well, it's a fact that Northern Russians are (unfortunately) Russified Finno Ugrians...


I've personally been in Vologda town, and have seen the people there. They don't look much different from Finns

What's your problem? You are alarmingly angry about something which I have not written?

---------- Post added 2010-01-18 at 08:52 ----------


Was it not the same before the collapse of Novgorod? Or maybe you count the destruction of Abo as an act of friendship? :D

aeon, Karelians and other eastern Baltic Finnish tribes were allied with Novgorod while western Finnish tribes were allied with Swedes.
Why? Religion.
Eastern Baltic Finns were orthodox while western Finns were catholic. In those days religious affinity played a big role. Add to that the struggle to gain control over furtrade which brought money to all parties.

---------- Post added 2010-01-18 at 08:57 ----------


I would otherwise argee to your arguments, Karhunkynsi, but explain please why Finns cluster so tightly with Northern Russians? How comes that these two populations, who were runned by two enemy states, and followed different branches of Christianity in the end reveal genetic closiness?

Surely, these two populations aren't identical, but they surprisingly cluster together in all charts I've seen.

Eastern Baltic Finnish peoples who became Russified. That's why the people you saw in Vologda were mostly tall, fair and looked "Finnish". What is it that you don't understand??

---------- Post added 2010-01-18 at 08:58 ----------


Could we say that Russians are Finns with a Southern Russian input instead of a Scandinavian input?

Yes, but that's only valid for northwestern Russians. The rest are slavotatarics:)

---------- Post added 2010-01-18 at 09:01 ----------




Too much Koskenkorva did you no good.

Tastes only a tad better than windshieldwiper fluid...

Evi
2010-01-18, 09:18
Well, it's a fact that Northern Russians are (unfortunately) Russified Finno Ugrians...
That's correct answer.




What's your problem? You are alarmingly angry about something which I have not written?
I am not angry, don't worry. I'm just annoyed that complex things like Finnish origins are looked from narrow perspective.



Eastern Baltic Finnish peoples who became Russified. That's why the people you saw in Vologda were mostly tall, fair and looked "Finnish". What is it that you don't understand??
I don't understand why you had to create thread under the name "Why are Finns outliers" if Finns are not outliers?

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-18, 10:14
I am not angry, don't worry. I'm just annoyed that complex things like Finnish origins are looked from narrow perspective.

Narrow? How do you mean? Read my post carefully and you'll see it's not that narrow perspective.


I don't understand why you had to create thread under the name "Why are Finns outliers" if Finns are not outliers?
Finns are ouliers like Sardinians and Icelanders, largely thanks to drift in an isolated population. Did you not read the post careful or what's your point?

Evi
2010-01-18, 10:45
Narrow? How do you mean? Read my post carefully and you'll see it's not that narrow perspective.
Hey, Motorhead, I understand that you tried your best, but unfortunately you reveal lack of understanding about the problems of genetic samplings and studies. For example, you claimed that Finns are outliers, because you brought in mind only some of Western genetic studies, where were shown only several populations, among the "eastern outliers" were only Finns included. It does reveal narrow perspective, believe me. If you would understand that in most studies most of "Eastern European" populations are left out of sight, you would talk differently.



Finns are ouliers like Sardinians and Icelanders, largely thanks to drift in an isolated population. Did you not read the post careful or what's your point?
No, Finns are not outliers like Sardinians or Icelanders! This is your main mistake! Finns clearly cluster with Northern Russians, what does it tell you? Maybe all Baltic-Finns in the end are "outliers"? And we still don't know how picture would change, if somebody would add Komi or Udmurt reference samples in genetic charts.

The real outliers are Saami people, I believe.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-18, 11:27
Hey, Motorhead, I understand that you tried your best, but unfortunately you reveal lack of understanding about the problems of genetic samplings and studies. For example, you claimed that Finns are outliers, because you brought in mind only some of Western genetic studies, where were shown only several populations, among the "eastern outliers" were only Finns included. It does reveal narrow perspective, believe me. If you would understand that in most studies most of "Eastern European" populations are left out of sight, you would talk differently.
I love it how you tell me how I thought... I brought up the studies made so far. Do you have other data?
How do you mean eastern? Bulgarians? Kazakhs? Karhukyunsi and Polako both mentioned that there is this northeastern perspective, which pulls Finns and related peoples away because of this drift. Right?


No, Finns are not outliers like Sardinians or Icelanders! This is your main mistake! Finns clearly cluster with Northern Russians, what does it tell you? Maybe all Baltic-Finns in the end are "outliers"? And we still don't know how picture would change, if somebody would add Komi or Udmurt reference samples in genetic charts.

Can you show how "tightly" Finns cluster with northwestern Russian compared to the distance to Swedes and Estonians?

Komis may not be that damned far but what do we know? Udmurts have at least 20% Asian Mtdna and would cluster far from Finns.


The real outliers are Saami people, I believe.

Yes, they are the extreme.

aeon
2010-01-18, 11:51
aeon, Karelians and other eastern Baltic Finnish tribes were allied with Novgorod while western Finnish tribes were allied with Swedes.

Your "allied with" should be read "conquered by".


Why? Religion.
Eastern Baltic Finns were orthodox while western Finns were catholic. In those days religious affinity played a big role. Add to that the struggle to gain control over furtrade which brought money to all parties.

So what? First Novgorodians slaughtered Finns, then Muscovites slaughtered Finns. What's the difference? Did Novgorodians slaughtered you less painfully?

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-18, 12:50
Your "allied with" should be read "conquered by".



So what? First Novgorodians slaughtered Finns, then Muscovites slaughtered Finns. What's the difference? Did Novgorodians slaughtered you less painfully?


aeon, Karelians and other eastern Baltic Finnish tribes were allied with Novgorod while western Finnish tribes were allied with Swedes.

LOL. Motorhead, when have you turned into stand-up comedy. "Western Finnish tribes". :thumbsup: being an ally? I am sure you are soon referring this as a documented and written "pact". LOL (unless ofcourse your "Western Finns" equals Germanic groups settling the Western Finnish coast and Åland islands, who possible dwelled the region already prior to the historically documented middle-age Swedish population expansion).

Swedes have never been allied with Uralic-groups dwelling the boreal forest zones. Claiming something like this would be an intellectual lie. Instead the forest zones dwelled by the un-organized forest Uralics (including Samis) were being consolidated with Swedish kingdom, and no.... no one was resisting nor asking for permission.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-18, 13:28
[QUOTE]LOL. Motorhead, when have you turned into stand-up comedy. "Western Finnish tribes". :thumbsup: being an ally? I am sure you are soon referring this as a documented and written "pact". LOL
Do you think Swedish tribes had written pacts among themselves prior to 12th century??
If you do, you are a bigger idiot than the very big idiot you have already proven to be.

Unlike you, I refer to what is known by historians. You have been outdebated by me on this subject atleast three times previously.
Are you a masochist or something coming back for yet another verbal beating?
http://www.kaapeli.fi/~fbf/ikaros/arkiv/2008-2/IKA208_p8-11.pdf
Read the myths you believe in being torn apart...


Swedes have never been allied with Uralic-groups dwel
sling the boreal forest zones. Claiming something like this would be an intellectual lie. Instead the forest zones dwelled by the un-organized forest Uralics (including Samis) were being consolidated with Swedish kingdom, and no.... no one was resisting nor asking for permission

Peter, still only a member who's in it for projecting Finns as primitive and unorganized and Swedes as Gods superior people. Sigh... Same old prejudicst ranting that's ´based on personal hatred which is leading nowhere.

If you still wish to "argue" with ridiculous Svekomaniac nationalromantic lies, do so somewhere else. Here we use facts.

---------- Post added 2010-01-18 at 13:38 ----------


Your "allied with" should be read "conquered by".
aeon, you are the Russian version of PTG, right? Novgorod was allied with Karelians against western Finnish tribes Tavastians and Finns, who in turn were allied now and them with each other and other times with with Swedes and Estonians. But this is a dsicussion about history, not genes...



So what? First Novgorodians slaughtered Finns, then Muscovites slaughtered Finns. What's the difference? Did Novgorodians slaughtered you less painfully?

Russian chauvinism.

Finns slaughtered Novgorodians and Muscovites too. Then Finns slaughtered Soviets. Same shit, new name. Makes no difference, a Russian is an enemy.

Evi
2010-01-18, 13:42
I love it how you tell me how I thought... I brought up the studies made so far. Do you have other data?
How do you mean eastern? Bulgarians? Kazakhs? Karhukyunsi and Polako both mentioned that there is this northeastern perspective, which pulls Finns and related peoples away because of this drift. Right?
OK, I understand how it is important to be super-precise in terms, otherwise you don't understand that here by "eastern" I meant "north-eastern Europeans".


Can you show how "tightly" Finns cluster with northwestern Russian compared to the distance to Swedes and Estonians?
Hell yeah, I want to see this stuff too in some scientific study!! Come on, it's not my fault that we don't see such studies until now. So far the only places you more or less can see some kind of clusters are 23andMe company, DeCodeMe company and BGA plots, which have been posted in this forum. Judging by them, Finns indeed cluster more tightly with NW Russians (although it depends) than with many Swedish people or most Norwegians.


Komis may not be that damned far but what do we know? Udmurts have at least 20% Asian Mtdna and would cluster far from Finns.
Well, understand what kind of problem you have left out of sight - Komi or Udmurts don't figure almost anywhere, they are not included in most studies for some kind of reason. Komi or Udmurts also have not examined themselves in any of commercial companies for various reasons.

So you should not hurry up with conclusions about Finns, if there are still unexamined things, and unproved issues.

I don't say now that Finns are clustering not only with NW Russians, but also f.e. Komi, because it would be too much hurried conclusion without real cover. So let's wait until some more results come from Russia's populations, and then make conclusions, OK?

Take a look at things not only from West, but also from East. After all, Finns are mix of both, if you understand what I mean.

Viking
2010-01-18, 13:58
It would be good if Polako stated, only if he has information of course, which Finns cluster with or close which genetic group (Scandinavians/Russians). Is it coastal/Southern Ostrobothnians and Satakuntans clustering with Scandinavians/Icelandics? Is it Karelians and Savolaxians clustering with Northwestern Russians? And so on.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-19, 07:54
It would be good if Polako stated, only if he has information of course, which Finns cluster with or close which genetic group (Scandinavians/Russians). Is it coastal/Southern Ostrobothnians and Satakuntans clustering with Scandinavians/Icelandics? Is it Karelians and Savolaxians clustering with Northwestern Russians? And so on.

Eastern Finns could be the ones that would cluster closer to northwestern Russians, as the "Finno Ugrian" component (as Jukka U Palo puts it) is higher in eastern Finland than in western Finland. But it may not be that simple.

J. Palo "Genetic markers and population history: Finland
revisited" 2009


On the basis of the obtained results, we question the previous population historical scenarios, which emphasize late founder effects as a main factor behind FDH occurrence and genetic differences within Finland. Instead, we propose an alternative model that accentuates long-term drift in eastern Finland and dissimilar patterns of gene flow into western and eastern parts of Finland.

Here it is also assumed that eastern Finland is affected by long term drift. Likewise researcher, T. Lappalainen have speculated in Helsingin Sanomat that eastern Finns would likely be far from their "Baltic Finnish" relatives in northwestern Russia because of long term drift.

J.Palo:

There is in fact little support in the archaeological data for immigration waves into Finland around 4000 BP and 2000 BP. Instead, archaeological evidence suggests that Finland was colonized rather rapidly after the deglaciation c. 10 500 BP.52 – 54 The initial colonization has been followed by major immigration waves c. 7500 BP (comb-ceramic culture) and 4500 BP (corded-ware culture). Second, there are no indications that the eastern parts of the country have been uninhabited until the late medieval times as proposed earlier. Model-based approaches predicting the number of inhabitants from the archaeological remains indeed propose a slow overall population growth from c. 10 500 BP onwards (P. Pesonen and M. Tallavaara, unpublished results), although significant reductions of population sizes between c. 6000 BP and 3000 BP in the western and eastern parts of the country are also suggested.
The scenario proposed earlier is also at odds with the current results. First and foremost, it would entail that the LSA diversity is a subset of the ESA diversity. However, as shown above, the differences especially in the Y-chromosome are not attributable solely to loss of diversity, but show distinctive haplotype and haplogroup distributions, which are more plausibly explained by gene flow into western Finland. The recent bottleneck associated with the settlement of the eastern/northern Finland should have affected both Y-chromosomal and mtDNA diversity relatively similarly. Unlike the Y-chromosomal variation, the mtDNA does not show any sign of reduction and displays fairly homogeneous haplogroup distribution over Finland. 16 The relative uniformity of the mtDNA diversity in Finland has been explained to be because of higher mutation rate in the mtDNA.11 This appears unlikely. As the mtDNA haplogroups are defined by old mutations and should be rather stable, it is difficult to understand how mutation could produce a haplogroup distribution that is more similar than, for example, that in the Central European populations55 in only 20 generations. Reversed, the same argument could be used for Y-chromosomal haplogroup distribution: the dichotomous patterns of I and N3 occurrence are not likely to arise because of neutral chance processes such as drift. Therefore, an alternative explanation – male-biased gene flow from Scandinavia to western parts of Finland – appears as more likely in the light of the current results.


The Late settlement area (eastern/northeastern) in turn, would seem to retain more of the Fenno-Ugric genetic composition originating from the regions east of Finland. This is reflected in the haplogroup distribution: the Scandinavian haplogroup I occurs with frequencies 30% only in western Finland. Haplogroup N3 (N1c), typical for Fenno-Ugric populations of north-eastern Europe, is observed in all parts of Finland but reaches high frequencies (79%) only in eastern Finland. The interregional dichotomy results in large FST estimates between eastern and western Finland and, consequently, in the clustering of populations

I only find it unfortunate that Palo refers to haplogroup I as the Scandinavian haplogroup. There is no evidences that this is anymore Scandinavian than f.e. it is Saami. Haplogroup I(1a) is an ancient paleolithic European haplogroup common in all Northern Europeans.


As within Finland, the distances among the Finnish and the European reference populations were an order of magnitude higher in the Y-STR (average FST¼0.129) than in the mtDNA data (average FST¼0.011). The MDS plots based on the linearized distances are shown in Figure 4. Although the patterns differ depending on the marker type, the Early settlement area (west Finland) sub-populations are generally placed closer to the European references, especially Sweden and Estonia. The KYMI population, however, is an exception clustering with the eastern sub-populations in the Y-STR (Figure 4a). In case of the LARSMO sub-population, the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial data reveal contradictory affinities. The mtDNA data suggest loose clustering among Finnish sub-populations, but the Y-STR data place this sample in the vicinity of the Baltic populations, Latvia and Lithuania, in the MDS. Nevertheless, based on the pairwise Y-chromosomal FST estimates, the LARSMO sample is clearly closer to Sweden (FST¼0.020) than the two Baltic states (FST¼0.158). The male genetic contribution of two parental populations, the LSA sub-population cluster and Sweden, was evaluated in the remaining sub-populations VAASA, LARSMO, TURKU, UUSIMAA, HAME, KYMI and LAPLAND. The LAPLAND was included here because of its proximity with the ESA (Early settlement area) sub-populations (Figure 3), which altogether show closer Scandinavian affinity (Figure 4). The analysis based on 11-locus Y-STR haplotypes suggests a substantial 20–30% Swedish contribution in most ESA sub-populations and LAPLAND (Figure 5a). In the LARSMO, the Swedish contribution exceeds the Finnish. The TURKU subpopulation does show only negligible Swedish contribution, but the analysis with 7-locus haplotype data and three parental populations suggests c. 30% contribution from the Latvia-Lithuania metasample into this region. In all other sub-populations, the Baltic contribution was low (c. 4% in UUSIMAA) or came up as negative (rest of the sub-populations).

Note: Palo speaks of N3 instread of N1c and he speaks of "Swedish" when it may as well be south Scandinavian. Most of the Scandinavian genetic influx to Finland (and Sweden)have come from south Scandinavia the Danish realm, and some from Gotland/north Germany. Remember that until the 17th century there was a big forrested border between Götaland and Halland/Skåne/Blekinge which was Danish territory since times immemorial. The Baltic contribution into western Finland is substantial too, affirming previous theories of migration to Finland proper from the Baltics.

---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 08:03 ----------


OK, I understand how it is important to be super-precise in terms, otherwise you don't understand that here by "eastern" I meant "north-eastern Europeans".
Good.


Hell yeah, I want to see this stuff too in some scientific study!! Come on, it's not my fault that we don't see such studies until now. So far the only places you more or less can see some kind of clusters are 23andMe company, DeCodeMe company and BGA plots, which have been posted in this forum. Judging by them, Finns indeed cluster more tightly with NW Russians (although it depends) than with many Swedish people or most Norwegians.
Good you admit you were just speculating on DNA companies results since you had no studys to show. I pointed at the studies made so far!


Well, understand what kind of problem you have left out of sight - Komi or Udmurts don't figure almost anywhere, they are not included in most studies for some kind of reason. Komi or Udmurts also have not examined themselves in any of commercial companies for various reasons.
May I speculate too? The 23and me result have also put Finns just as far from their Uralic Finno Ugrian linguistic relatives as from South Asians!! How about that?

So you should not hurry up with conclusions about Finns, if there are still unexamined things, and unproved issues. Dea Evi, you are the one hurrying conclusions. I think it is evident now...

---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 08:23 ----------

And a murderous blow to PTG's insane ranting about "superior Swedes". The "colonisation of Finland" were infact population movement by poor "Danes" and other south Scandinavian refugees who settled in harsh coastal areas, not cared for by the wealthy Finnish inland population. Prior to that western Finland incl. Estonians and Svea was pretty much the same cultural area. In other words, a sea alliance (for more on this read Matti Klinge or even Swedish historian Dick Harrisson):


Ännu på 700-talet utgjordes Sverige, Svea, av fem områden; det till Mälardalen hörande Uppland, vilket omgavs av Södermanland, Västmanland, Norrland och Östland (nuvarande Egentliga Finland). Den här urgamla politiska enheten söndrades genom Syd-Danmarks erövring på 800-
talet, vilket Mats Dreijer har skrivit om i verket Det Åländska folkets historia. Det nuvarande Ålands befolkning härstammar från Slesvig- och Holsteinområdena, vilket doktor Nevanlinnas lodgruppsundersökningar tydligt har visat. Erövringen, som i själva verket var en av folkvandringarnas sista händelser, bröt kontakterna mellan rikets östra och västra del och möjliggjorde ett språkbyte i den västra delen till följd av den kraftiga sydliga flyttrörelsen. Betydelsen av danskhet för Ålands del förlorade sin betydelse i och med den danska flottans slutliga sammanbrott i och med Kalmarunionsförlusten. Följande grupp av skandinaver efter ålänningarna var den flyttvåg under 800-talet, till ursprunget en flyktingström, som var en följd av den danska centralmaktens uppkomst och de religiösa spänningar som kristendomen gav upphov till. Befolkningen som huvudsakligen kom från Öresundsområdet flyttade till en början till det nuvarande Hälsingland och därifrån vidare till Österbotten och Nylands kustområden – vilket syns klart förutom i dialekter också i ortsnamnen. Bosättningen samlades på kustområdets obebodda skär, som gav de utfattiga skandinaviska fiskarna ett blygsamt levebröd. De här områdena brydde sig den rika ursprungsbefolkningen, jordbrukare och vandrare, helt enkelt inte om. Den tredje gruppen ”erövrare och härskare” hittar man i Åbolands skärgård, vars befolkning nästan uteslutande består av Egentliga Finlands utskärsfolk som nästan
helt så småningom bytte språk p.g.a. ekonomiska skäl. Den ofta omtalade skillnaden mellan ”finsk” och ”svensk” skatt uppstod just som en följd av Egentliga Finlands ekonomiska särprägel, inte p.g.a.
etnisk bakgrund – det är svårt att kräva smör som skatteenhet om det är omöjligt att föda upp kor. Språkbytet är lätt att följa t.ex. med hjälp av SKS:s utgivna forskningsarbete ”Turunmaan saariston
suomenkielinen paikannimistö”. Den fjärde viktiga gruppen av ”svenska erövrare och härskare” är den grupp som egentligen var viktigast för den nämnda mytens och det negativa rykte som den skapade – Finlands svenskspråkiga politiska, ekonomiska och kulturella elit. Denna elit består endast delvis av den sociala uppgradering som skedde i de redan nämnda folkgrupperna, såsom Johan Wilhelm Snellman. Huvudsakligen består den av den ursprungligen finskspråkiga överklassen, som speciellt under den ryska tiden strävade till att urskilja sig från ”vanligt folk”. Men denna utveckling hade i och för sig börjat redan under 1700-talet. Det här märker man tydligt då man studerar hur namnen förändras i ”den svenska eliten”. Ett par exempel torde ge en bra bild; Wegelius < Seinäjokis kaplan, Gummerus < Pihkala, åboländsk storhandlare, vars svärson tog detta släktnamn och ”förbättrade det” genom sin prästtjänst, Alopeus (från grekiskans Alopex + latinets –us) < Kettunen, en prästsläkt från Kainuu. Den andra stora gruppen i den här skaran består av efterkommande till tjänstemän och handelsmän som flyttat från utlandet till Finland, som ”socialiserades” tillsammans med den högsta eliten som blivit svenskspråkig. Då man talar om Sveriges äldre språkförhållanden och Finlands betydelse för dessa, får man inte glömma att finska blev ett andra klassens språk först när landets förvaltning i en allt högre grad kom att bestå av utlänningar, främst ”lågtyskar”. Å andra sidan ska man också hålla i minnet att inrikespolitiken har blivit onödigt inflammerad p.g.a. de olika parternas bristande språkkunskaper, begreppen ”svensk”, ”svenske” och ”svenska” tolkas som att betyda nbart ”rikssvensk” eller ”från Sverige härstammande” och detta har delvis varit avsiktligt. En tvist får man dock nog alltid till stånd, om man bara vill. (JH)

http://www.kaapeli.fi/~fbf/ikaros/ar...A208_p8-11.pdf

Polako
2010-01-19, 08:26
It would be good if Polako stated, only if he has information of course, which Finns cluster with or close which genetic group (Scandinavians/Russians). Is it coastal/Southern Ostrobothnians and Satakuntans clustering with Scandinavians/Icelandics? Is it Karelians and Savolaxians clustering with Northwestern Russians? And so on.

The closest Finns I have to Scandinavians on the Euro 1-2-3 plot are Aino and her dad. They're both very close to me too, which is interesting, considering I share a fairly large segment on chromosome 9 with the latter.

As far as I know, he's from Tavastia, but you should ask Aino about that. I've heard there is one Finn just slightly more "northwest" of Aino, but I don't have her.

I'm in the process of adding more Finns now, so I'll make an updated map next week, possibly with some confirmed west and east Finns.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-19, 10:33
[/COLOR]And a murderous blow to PTG's insane ranting about "superior Swedes". The "colonisation of Finland" were infact population movement by poor "Danes" and other south Scandinavian refugees who settled in harsh coastal areas, not cared for by the wealthy Finnish inland population. Prior to that western Finland incl. Estonians and Svea was pretty much the same cultural area. In other words, a sea alliance (for more on this read Matti Klinge or even Swedish historian Dick Harrisson):





Motor:thumbsup:, you are good with words and I really look up to your verbal acrobatism, however you should leave atleast some slack to your rather controversial claims, otherwise you soon end up looking like an idiot.

1) The Swedish dialects spoken in Finland have throroughly studies since the 19th century, and the research has been rather consistent, there's not a hint that substantial population movements from extra-proto-Swedish area's have been taken a place.

Even the most archaich and isolated Scandinavian dialects found in Finland's coast trace their root to Central Sweden and possibly Gotland. This is very consistent the very first pieces of written Finnish language, already Mikael Agricola described the coast of Finland as been dwelled by "Swedes and Gotlanders". Obviously if you dig the roots further you will these people as Southern Scandinavians, as the whole Central Sweden was colonized from the south.

And, yes, most of the inhabitants were poor, however not entirely. I am afraid you nice "mythbusting work" has been busted long time ago.

2) The idea that upper-class was originally Uralics and changed language and the original Swedes at coast just poor fishers is very absurd and obviously has very little truth in it. It's rather crazy what people with inferiority complexes and political motives come up with.

http://www.ennenjanyt.net/4-04/haggren.pdf

"Nyland has always been characterised as an area of medieval colonisation
conducted by the Swedes. Previously this colonisation has been seen as an immigration of independents peasants. As a new result a significant noble
impact has been verified"

"Frälseståndets ursprung var till två tredjedel svenskt, till en tredjedel tyskt. Någon social rörelse som skulle ha fört kristnade finnar uppåt till dessa poster fanns inte, då jordegendomen inte var ett vilkor för en ledande ställning inom förvaltning, rättskipning och skatteadministration". (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008)

Utöver dessa tre ätter finns det en del finska släktnamn bland frälsemannen, såsom Karppalainen och Kirves, men det är inte möjligt att dra några slutsatser om dessa släkters ursprung. Möjligen kan det helt enkelt röra sig om finskspråkiga tilllnamn som bars av svenska eller utifrån kommande släkter. Det bevisligen finska inslaget i Finlands frälsestånd är alltså utoomordentligt knappt"

http://www.carlonordling.se/finlandssvenskar/7.html

"Until the beginning of the 20th century, however, the general opinion was that a good many Finland-Swedes were descended from Finns. An indication that this was the case was seen in the fact that a number of Finland-Swedish family names are derived from Finnish place names, e.g. Ascholin from the parish of Askola or Frosterus from a homestead called Pakkala (pakkanen is the Finnish word for frost). It was, however, a prevailing custom among Swedish clergymen, burghers and freeholders to create family names out of place names, and most place names in Finland were Finnish.........."

I could add to the fact that prior the 20th century Swedes were to be found in all parts of the country, also in area's which today are 100% Finnish.

3) Think about all great men what tha poor and fisher-esque Swedish Österbotten, where you imaginary father hails from has given to ethnic Finns. These men have been in forefront in creating a common ethnic identity to ethnic Finns.

Arwiddson, descended of from family from Dalarna, Sweden.
Snellman, family from Mainland-Sweden to Vasa in the 17-century
Yrjö-Koskinen (Forsman from Vasa) family from, Ångermanland, Sweden.
Tengström, Karleby, family from West-Götaland, Sweden.


Det Åländska folkets historia. Det
nuvarande Ålands befolkning härstammar
från Slesvig- och Holsteinområdena, vilket
doktor Nevanlinnas blodgruppsundersökningar
tydligt har visat. Erövringen, som i
själva verket var en av folkvandringarnas
sista händelser, bröt kontakterna mellan
rikets östra och västra del och möjliggjorde

Your great "myth-busting source" uses a blood-group study from the 1970's to "prove facts" about population movements.....lol, what next?:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Evi
2010-01-19, 10:48
May I speculate too? The 23and me result have also put Finns just as far from their Uralic Finno Ugrian linguistic relatives as from South Asians!! How about that?
OK, I guess I have to explain you something. I have several half Europeans half Mongoloids in my contact list in 23andMe. F.e. a person, who is half Swede and half Chinese is pulled far away from ethnic Swedes, he ends up somewhere in the "Uyghur" area. Does it mean that this person stops to do something with ethnic Swedes, in your opinion? The Swedish people are not related to him, because he is so far away from them in map?

I am half Latvian, yet I am quite far away in map from Latvians, I am somewhere around "Hazara" population in 23andMe map (and I cluster, although not precisely, with Central Asians in DeCodeMe dimensional maps), so do I stop something to do with Latvians?


IMO the best and most real way how to find out the connections between populations so far is "relative finder" option, which is available in commercial companies.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-19, 10:55
The idea [/B]that upper-class was originally Uralics
AFAIK, no one have put forth an idea that the Finnish upper class were Udmurts or Mordvinians?


"Nyland has always been characterised as an area of medieval colonisation
conducted by the Swedes. Previously this colonisation has been seen as an immigration of independents peasants. As a new result a significant noble
impact has been verified"
"Frälseståndets ursprung var till två tredjedel svenskt, till en tredjedel tyskt. Någon social rörelse som skulle ha fört kristnade finnar uppåt till dessa poster fanns inte, då jordegendomen inte var ett vilkor för en ledande ställning inom förvaltning, rättskipning och skatteadministration". (Kari Tarkiainen, 2008)
You are as usual not capable of sieving what is being discussed and what is your pervert obsession. What on earth does this have to do with the topic?? Post somewhere else.



Think about all great men what tha poor and fisher-esque Swedish Österbotten, where you imaginary father hails from has given to ethnic Finns. These men have been in forefront in creating a common ethnic identity to ethnic Finns.
What on earth is this nonsense?


Arwiddson, descended of from family from Dalarna, Sweden.
Snellman, family from Mainland-Sweden to Vasa in the 17-century
Yrjö-Koskinen (Forsman from Vasa) family from, Ångermanland, Sweden.
Tengström, Karleby, family from West-Götaland, Sweden.

Off topic. Or do you think this adds to the discussion of genetic drift???

---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 11:00 ----------


OK, I guess I have to explain you something. I have several half Europeans half Mongoloids in my contact list in 23andMe. F.e. a person, who is half Swede and half Chinese is pulled far away from ethnic Swedes, he ends up somewhere in the "Uyghur" area. Does it mean that this person stops to do something with ethnic Swedes, in your opinion? The Swedish people are not related to him, because he is so far away from them in map?

I am half Latvian, yet I am quite far away in map from Latvians, I am somewhere around "Hazara" population in 23andMe map (and I cluster, although not precisely, with Central Asians in DeCodeMe dimensional maps), so do I stop something to do with Latvians?


IMO the best and most real way how to find out the connections between populations so far is "relative finder" option, which is available in commercial companies.

This is why 23and me speculation you engage is something else than the studies I referred to.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-19, 11:23
AFAIK, no one have put forth an idea that the Finnish upper class were Udmurts or Mordvinians?




What on earth is this nonsense?



Motor, don't be mean. You know very well that the sources were used to show the flaws of your source which you made big quotes out off.

There's has never been any historical ethnic Finnish upper-class, because Uralic societies have somewhat lacked social structures which have characterized European folk groups. Laws are foundation of social structures and hierarchies, Finns did not have word for "law" before the arrival of Swedes.

Evi
2010-01-19, 11:44
This is why 23and me speculation you engage is something else than the studies I referred to.
OK, in reality you haven't seen any of Finno-Ugric speaking people from Russia results in this company, so right now all of this is just speculation.

If f.e. some ethnic Komi would make test in 23andMe, who would be his "relatives" in "relative finder"? Would be there Russians? Maybe I would be among his relatives, maybe he has connections to Khanty side? Maybe he would be related to some Finnish persons, although for some reasons it seems not to be very likely? It would be interesting as hell to find out such things.

---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 13:46 ----------


There's has never been any historical ethnic Finnish upper-class, because Uralic societies have somewhat lacked social structures which have characterized European folk groups. Laws are foundation of social structures and hierarchies, Finns did not have word for "law" before the arrival of Swedes.
That's not true, Finno-Ugric societies had social structures and they had a thing called "law". F.e. several centuries ago Khanty elders could make decision to cut off hand to somebody who would be accused in cutting down f.e. a holy tree ceder. A thief would be punished, and his family would be in shame. The Khanty had a lot of rules and laws, and they were usually quite strict ones. The laws and rules existed also in all societies in Northern Europe.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-19, 14:40
Motor, don't be mean. You know very well that the sources were used to show the flaws of your source which you made big quotes out off. Now Derek Fewster, whom you quoted a million times, is no good?? Nonsense. You have not provided anything of caliber.


There's has never been any historical ethnic Finnish upper-class, because Uralic societies have somewhat lacked social structures which have characterized European folk groups. Laws are foundation of social structures and hierarchies, Finns did not have word for "law" before the arrival of Swedes.
(Uralics are Chuvash or who do you talk about?)
Peter, only in it for the misconceptions and outright lies...

Finnish peoples have indeed have "social structures" and "laws" among themselves, it is selfevident.
The ancient finnish word Käräjä (from kerätä assemble). What does the word Käräjä mean? I can enlighten you, it is the ancient Finnish equivalent of old Norse Ting which is an assembly were tribal law was cast!
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4r%C3%A4j%C3%A4t
How could the Finnish peoples have had kings and plundered neighbouring countries according to the sagas and chronicles if they had no social structure?

About oral law: This source specifically says that historians know almost nothing about the Scandinavian "laws" prior to medieval times, but you seem to know? Historians have a difficult task in putting together a real picture of how Svea might have looked like and how life was like because there are no written Swedish documents prior to the 13th century.
The truth is that the Swedes (Svear) did not even have a law prior to the 13th century because the first primitive Swedish law texts are from around 1280.
There are no proofs that the Swedes even had a law, apart from tribal, until then.

“Att muntligt traderad lag har funnits i Norden redan före medeltidens början är troligt, men kan knappast ledas i bevis. Hur dessa lagar eller bestämmelser har sett ut vet vi heller knappast någonting om.'”
http://art-bin.com/art/awiktor.html
To say there was no law because there are no law texts is moronic. That there was an oral law or law in peoples memories in the Nordic countries, Finland included, is highly likely, but we know nothing about it’s content.



So, using your imbecillic logic, the Swedes were definetly not part of European folk groups prior to the 13th century because they lacked written law!

Runic stones with inscriptions like “Tor was slain in Finland” or “Balle built a bridge” is not really the stuff you build a society on. The first sign of Sweden being united under a tribal chief strong enough to be called a king over Svear was only in the 11th century. Before that it was a, by European standards, bunch of hopelessly primitive and pagan people loosely held together by a common target, the need to survive in the cold north.
“In the case of Sweden we have a couple of papal letters from around 1080 as our first official evidence. Apart from this there are really only three historical sources to the viking period of Sweden. Firstly there is a saint's life, the vita of Ansgar, the earliest known missionary to Sweden. Ansgar visited the trade town of Birka in Lake Malaren in 829. He was successful in establishing a local church which survived a few decades, but left no known traces and had no influence on early Viking Age Sweden in general. Secondly, the Arch-bishop of Northern Germany, Adam of Bremen, wrote a history in the 1070's of the missionary efforts of the Hamburg diocese in Scandinavia. He tells us that there was a pagan temple, covered with gold, at the central cult site of the Swedes, which was located at Uppsala, ten kilometres upriver from today's city Uppsala. According to Adam the Swedes conducted a major sacrifice, including humans, in a nine-year cycle.
The third major documentary source consists of information in the Old Norse literature, but this is sparse and often more of a fantastical than historical nature. The Norwegians and Icelanders obviously considered the Swedes to be uncultured ruffians, still wallowing in Heathen passions. From the historical point of view it seems reasonably clear that missionary efforts from Germany and England, probably also Norway and Denmark, gradually Christianized the Swedes from the
South towards the North”.
http://escholarship.usyd.edu.au/journals/index.php/SSR/article/viewFile/656/637

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-19, 15:18
Now Derek Fewster, whom you quoted a million times, is no good?? Nonsense. You have not provided anything of caliber.





Yawn.....Derek Fewster is brilliant, however he was only the third author of the paper, which actually lot of good stuff in, apart from some parts which were completely, utter BS, nonsense.

I find extremely ridiculous that a paper named after "myth-busting" falls to avoid simple flaws that every sophisticated geneologic practioner knows to avoid, I also find ridulous that a paper present "facts" about population movements based one blood-group study from 1970's.

Speaking about caliber, you should really first read the BS you are about to post before you are flamboyantly referring to poster who allegedly about to experience:
murderous blow Some of the chapters of the paper are obvious jokes and nothing but poor attempts to invigorate the non-existent national self-confidence of ethnic-Finns. And deep down you know this as well as I do.

The fact they did not even reserve a right for a flawed methodology seriously question the scientific merits of the whole papers. Not a single academic mentor would have allowed this paper to pass without taking up these few little issues.

Good that you pointed out this, I must take this issue up personally with mr. Fewster.

------------------

The middle-age Swedish expansion was highly organized mass-arrival and the Swedes quickly established themselves as the ruling elite over the motley bunch of Uralic tribes in the forests, exactly the way the politically incorrect stereotype in Finland goes (Haggren 2005, Tarkiainen, 2008.....etc). Sad but true. Your paper is nothing but a political pamflect, that fact that the authors confused Snellman to a descend of the early coastal settlers was funny but utter BS, and really shows the standards of the paper. Mikael Agricola would have suited much better for their purpose. But obviously the authors had no clue, right now the biggest issue for me to comtemplate is that fact that Derek Fewster signed his name under such a piece of garbage.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-20, 10:06
This thread is about genetics!!

(Go here for more verbal abuse, PTG http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=2116)

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-20, 12:44
Could you be more specific about Tatar and Mongol genes in Russians?

Here you go:

Mongoloid components in Eastern Europe

The only study which studied the genomic study of a Slavic sample of Russians (Science 20 December 2002: Vol. 298. no. 5602, pp. 2381 - 2385) determined a 93% membership coefficient in the main Caucasoid cluster, with a 3% membership in the main (East Asian) Mongoloid cluster.
In the recent Y chromosome study of the Czech Republic for example, the main Mongoloid Y-haplogroups (C, Q, O) likely to have accompanied the women bearing the 3% Mongoloid mtDNA were not examined and could be part of the Y*, P*, and K* paragroups. Similarly, none of these haplogroups were studied in a recent study on Poland and Germany.

mtDNA evidence suggests a low-level introgression of Mongoloid components into Eastern Europe. The extent of this admixture is likely to be underestimated by the genetic profile of the source population and the excess of male migrants.

Frequency variations of eastern-Eurasian (Mongoloid) mtDNA lineages in different Slavic groups was observed, with the range from 1.2 and 1.6% in Southern and Western Slavs, respectively, to 1.3 to 5.2% in Eastern Slavs, the Russian population of Eastern Europe.

Russian alcoholism and the "Mongoloid gene" by Jeremy Page:
(To be honest, I do not know the level of accuracy of this..)


SCIENTISTS researching cures for alcoholism and hangovers say that they have found a genetic link between Russians’ traditional weakness for drink and the marauding Mongol armies of Genghis Khan.

As many as 50 per cent of Muscovites are estimated to have inherited Mongol genes that make them absorb more alcohol into the bloodstream and break it down at a slower rate than most Europeans, they say.

That means that they get more drunk and have worse hangovers, and are more likely to become addicted to alcohol, given Russia’s taste for vodka, its harsh climate and the social and economic chaos after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

“The difference is huge — in reaction speed, memory, hand tremor — and in how they recover,” Vladimir Nuzhny, of the Health Ministry’s National Narcology Research Centre, said. “On average, 50 per cent of people in Moscow have this Mongoloid gene. So this, we think, is part of the problem.”

As part of the study, the scientists paid 12 volunteer students to drink 350 grams, about a third of a bottle, of vodka in an hour, and then monitored their behaviour.

“That’s a lot by Western standards, but it’s normal for Russia,” Dr Nuzhny told The Times. “At first they thought it was great, because they were being paid to drink, but after a while they realised it was more like work.”

The intoxicated students had to perform a series of tests, including answering questionnaires and playing rally-driving computer games, and they were breathalysed at regular intervals. The scientists even measured their ability to stand up straight.

After sleeping off the effects in a dormitory at the laboratory — which had a karaoke machine — the students were given a slap-up breakfast before doing more tests to measure their hangovers. The study showed that those with the Mongol genes absorbed 50 per cent more alcohol into the bloodstream at peak levels and metabolised it much more slowly than the other students.

“The way they get drunk is completely different. They are also more likely to feel aggressive or depressed,” Dr Nuzhny said. “They do not necessarily look Mongolian, but the gene that governs how they metabolise alcohol is Mongoloid.”

The Mongols swept across Asia and Russia and into Europe in the 13th century and ruled Russia for two centuries. Inter-marriage with the Slavs and other ethnic groups was common.
Scientists have long known that people of Mongol extraction, including Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, have an enzyme for metabolising alcohol that is different from that of Caucasian Europeans.

Dr Nuzhny claims that his study is the first to look at the effect of alcohol on Russians who have inherited Mongol genes. He says that the phenomenon can be explained partly by evolution. The nomadic Mongols, whose only indigenous form of alcohol was fermented mare’s milk, evolved with a different enzyme from the settled Europeans, with their long tradition of producing stronger grape and grain-based alcohol.

Dr Nuzhny’s research is partly funded by pharmaceutical companies trying to develop drugs to cure hangovers and alcoholism.

Russans drink about 15 litres of pure alcohol a head each year, one of the highest rates in the world, and by some estimates one in seven Russians are alcoholics. Alcohol is largely to blame for a fall in life expectancy to less than 59 since the fall of the Soviet Union.

aeon
2010-01-20, 13:28
Here you go:

Mongoloid components in Eastern Europe

It would be much more convincing if you gave links to specific studies. Anyway, it is well known that Russian have under 2% of Mongoloid genes, which is pretty much the European average. It is also noteworthy that their highest concentration is in Northern Russia, i.e. they come from Finns and have nothing to do with Tatars or Mongols.



Russian alcoholism and the "Mongoloid gene" by Jeremy Page:
(To be honest, I do not know the level of accuracy of this..)

Very useful reservation, since this article is total bullshit, starting from the fact that the "Mongoloid gene" to which it refers without even naming it (Alcohol Dehydrogenase ADH1B*47His Allele) actually inhibits alcoholism.

It is based on this study

Geographically Separate Increases in the Frequency of the Derived ADH1B*47His Allele in Eastern and Western Asia
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17847010

which itself admits that its sample is fucked up:


The Moscow Russian sample appears anomalous with a fairly high frequency of ADH1B*47His; however, the sample is said in the original publication to be admixed with eastern Asians.

And this is what a recent study says:


As indicated by Li et al., ‘‘the Moscow Russian sample appears anomalous with a fairly high frequency (41%) of ADH1B*47His’’ resulting in a local maximum in the central part of the Russian Plain on the allele-frequency map. In addition, in another study, the frequency of the allele for Russians in Siberia was also found to be relatively high (~20%), which is significantly different from other European populations. To estimate the frequency among Russians more extensively, we have carried out further genotyping in Muscovites and in other Russian populations from different geographic regions. The frequency of the ADH1B*47His allele in Russians across the country (including both European and Asian parts of Russia) varies between 1.9% and 7.6%, with a mean frequency of 4.9% in the total group of 1019 Russian individuals. These data agree with other data on ADH1B*47His allele frequency for Northern Russian populations of Archangelsk (5%) and Vologda (6%), and are similar to the frequencies that we estimated for the closest relative Slavic groups (Ukrainians and Byelorussians). The higher frequencies of the allele reported previously for Russians are, therefore, most likely the result of genotyping error.

Distribution of the Alcohol Dehydrogenase ADH1B*47His Allele in Eurasia
http://www.medgenetics.ru/UserFile/File/Doc/Evolution%20Doc/Borinskaya%202009%20AJHG%20Distr%20ADH1B%2047His.p df

So, you fail, as usual.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-20, 14:52
It would be much more convincing if you gave links to specific studies. Anyway, it is well known that Russian have under 2% of Mongoloid genes, which is pretty much the European average. It is also noteworthy that their highest concentration is in Northern Russia, i.e. they come from Finns and have nothing to do with Tatars or Mongols.

Nonsense. It could not have come from "Finns", since Finns only live in Finland. I assume you mean other Finno Ugrian (compare; Indo Europeans) peoples in Russia?
Care to explain why the "Finns" have a lower average of "Mongol genes" than Russians and how it then could be possible that "Mongoloid genes" would have been transmitted from "Finns" to Russians? If the Mongoloid component would come from "Finns", could you point to what that component is?

Could you also explain why the Asian mtDNA's generally listed in Russians are absent from Baltic Finnish peoples?

The only east Eurasian mtDNA in Baltic Finnish peoples is Z. It's found in less than 4% and it's one of the youngest haplotypes in Fennoscandia =not "native" to "Finns". But how did it end up here?


“Udmurts,[ …], belonging to Permic branch of Finno-Ugric languages, carry in their mtDNA pool up to20 per cent of eastern Asian-specific lineages – a highest share among the European Finno-Ugric people studied so far, although still a minority. Meanwhile, more than a half of mongoloid-specific mtDNA lineages among Udmurts belong to hg D, which is spread widely in Mongols (24 %) (Kolman et al. 1996) and native Siberian populations (ca 13 %) (Torroni et al. 1993), but is quite rare in southeastern Asians (Ballinger et al. 1992). Hg Z is also present among Udmurts. This subhaplogroup of M is characteristic to Siberian populations and frequent among Tungusic-speaking populations spread in the northern part of Siberia (Torroni et al. 1993), and present also among Mongols (Kolman et al. 1996) and Turkic-speaking Central Asians (Comas et al. 1998). The same mtDNA control region motif is present also in Saami population (Sajantila et al. 1995). Here, it is worthwhile to remember that more than a half a century ago, an Estonian archaeologist Richard Indreko (1948) suggested that at the end of the Upper Paleolithic, a branch of the original Europeans moved from the area of present southern Russia to the Yenisey River and mixed there with original Asian people. He further assumed that one part of this mixed breed moved to the north and back to Europe along the Arctic Zone, eventually contributing significantly to the gene pool of that time northeastern Scandinavians to give rise to the present-day Saami population.”

Z is found in Saami populations but also in Karelians who have some Saami admixture.

So, you fail, as usual.

Where else did I fail? Please show me, I promise to improve.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-21, 08:56
Could you be more specific about Tatar and Mongol genes in Russians?

Genes brought in by Tatars (Volga Bolgars and other Kipchacks) and genes brought in by Mongols. AFAIK these genes were (are?) more prominent on the higher social classes than your average peasent.

Like Tsar Simeon Bekbulatovic, Grand Prince and Tsar of whole Russia. Born Sain-Bulat, son of the Khan of Khanate of Qasim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Bekbulatovich
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Simeon_Bekbulatovich.jpg

Or the Regent Boris Godunov, Tatar:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Borisgudonov.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Godunov

Or the countless others. Like Khan (Tsar) Ivan The Terrible, direct decendant of greatest ruler of Russia ever, Batu Khan. Mongol Khan of Golden Horde.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Kremlinpic4.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_IV

aeon
2010-01-21, 18:35
Genes brought in by Tatars (Volga Bolgars and other Kipchacks) and genes brought in by Mongols. AFAIK these genes were (are?) more prominent on the higher social classes than your average peasent.

Like Tsar Simeon Bekbulatovic, Grand Prince and Tsar of whole Russia. Born Sain-Bulat, son of the Khan of Khanate of Qasim.

Was Ivan the Terrible's toy. Left no descendants.


Or the Regent Boris Godunov, Tatar:

Russian origin. Tatar descent is a late legend.


Or the countless others. Like Khan (Tsar) Ivan The Terrible, direct decendant of greatest ruler of Russia ever, Batu Khan. Mongol Khan of Golden Horde.


Where can I learn about the descent of Ivan the Terrible from Batu Khan? Is it said in top secret Finnish files? Because nobody but you knows it. :)

And none of the above looks Mongoloid.

Cail
2010-01-21, 18:58
Where can I learn about the descent of Ivan the Terrible from Batu Khan? Is it said in top secret Finnish files? Because nobody but you knows it. :)

There is a myth, that Ivan IV's mother, Helena Glinskaja, was Mamaj's (not Batu's) descendant, based on the historical text implying that Glinsk (domain of Glinskis princely family) was founded by Mamaj's son Mansur. There is no proof to it whatsoever, Glinskis were Lithuanian nobles and no records of them being of Tatar descent exist. Helena Glinskaja's face (reconstruction from skull):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Glinskaya_reconstruction.jpg/396px-Glinskaya_reconstruction.jpg

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-21, 21:33
Russian origin. Tatar descent is a late legend.


Tatar origin was so sought after that even the highest social classes lied their origins ? No wonder even the merhcants used Tatar as lingua france at Moscovia.



Where can I learn about the descent of Ivan the Terrible from Batu Khan? Is it said in top secret Finnish files? Because nobody but you knows it. :)


He is not only related to Batu Khan but also through Batu to Chengis himself! Batu's son Sartag Khan (blood brother of Alexander Nevsky, voted as greatest Russian) gave his daughter to Gleb Vasilkovich as wife. Gleb is Ivan's paternal ancestor in direct lineage. Now you know why Ivan IV was so interested to gather all the old Horde lands under his patrionage. It was his duty as an Moscovite and as heir of the Mongol Khans.

So there, it's not even from secret Finnish files.

---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 21:34 ----------


There is a myth, that Ivan IV's mother, Helena Glinskaja, was Mamaj's (not Batu's) descendant, based on the historical text implying that Glinsk (domain of Glinskis princely family) was founded by Mamaj's son Mansur.

Wow, so he is double heir of the Mongols then.

aeon
2010-01-21, 21:51
Tatar origin was so sought after that even the highest social classes lied their origins ? No wonder even the merhcants used Tatar as lingua france at Moscovia.

Lie.


He is not only related to Batu Khan but also through Batu to Chengis himself! Batu's son Sartag Khan (blood brother of Alexander Nevsky, voted as greatest Russian) gave his daughter to Gleb Vasilkovich as wife.

Lie.


Gleb is Ivan's paternal ancestor in direct lineage.

Lie.


It was his duty as an Moscovite and as heir of the Mongol Khans.


Lie.


Wow, so he is double heir of the Mongols then.

Lie.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-21, 22:06
Oh boy, what an insightfull post. You know there are letters other than L,I,E and . ? How could I make that stuff up ? And what for ?

Cail
2010-01-22, 01:16
He is not only related to Batu Khan but also through Batu to Chengis himself! Batu's son Sartag Khan (blood brother of Alexander Nevsky, voted as greatest Russian) gave his daughter to Gleb Vasilkovich as wife. Gleb is Ivan's paternal ancestor in direct lineage.
That's not true. Gleb is not Ivan's direct patrilineal ancestor. Ivan is patrilinealy descended from Alexander Nevsky:

Alexander Nevsky -> Daniil Alexandrovich -> Ivan I Kalita -> Ivan II Krasny -> Dmitry I Donskoj -> Vasily I -> Vasily II Temny -> Ivan III -> Vasily III -> Ivan IV.

I haven't found any evidence that Ivan IV is descended from Gleb Vasilkovich at all (care to post source and a bloodline?), but even if he was, it would mean one Tatar great-...-grandmother 300 years before his birth. That's like 1/512 Tatar or so.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-22, 08:46
I haven't found any evidence that Ivan IV is descended from Gleb Vasilkovich at all (care to post source and a bloodline?), but even if he was, it would mean one Tatar great-...-grandmother 300 years before his birth. That's like 1/512 Tatar or so.

Not some Tatar lackey! Mongol Khan! :mad: , that same Khan was also blood brother of Alexander Nevsky. Alexander ofcource spend lot of his time with the Horde. He was basically white Mongol.

I made an slight error at the pedigree. Ivan IV is decendent from Gleb through Glebs daughter, Theothiure (Theodora). Theothiure was married to Daniel of Kiev. They had an son, Ivan Kalita.

Ofcource these Moscovitians had Mongol and even more so Kipchak blood and they were also very proud about it! They were vassals of the Khans remember! They were crowned by the Khans. Their military came from the Khans. They were nothing without the Khans!

Moscovite trade was heavily towards the Khanates. No wonder, really:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD1237%20KipchakKhanate.gif

Tens on millions of so-called-east-slavs are infact Turks. This includes pretty much everyone at Ukraine and half of Russians. TuR1an Powa!

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-22, 09:10
LOL. Karhunkynsi is hillarious:D, you are not "Veikko" aren't you? Incase you are, hit me with a PM.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-22, 10:49
Lie.



Lie.



Lie.



Lie.



Lie.

Man... Those are some heavy arguments.

Cail
2010-01-22, 11:47
I made an slight error at the pedigree. Ivan IV is decendent from Gleb through Glebs daughter, Theothiure (Theodora). Theothiure was married to Daniel of Kiev. They had an son, Ivan Kalita.

That's some total bullshit.

a)Wrong Daniel. Ivan Kalita was a son of the Daniel Alexandrovich (prince of Moscow), not Daniel of Kiev.
b)Gleb Vasilkovich never had any daughters, only sons - Demian, Roman, Michael and Vasily.
c)Daniel's wife was called Maria not Theodora. She was of minor gentry, because Daniel himself was youngest of Alexander's sons, and noone expected that his line (princes of Moscow, which was a minor town then) would become so great.

Either you invent facts out of the blue, or you use some retarded bullshit source.

---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 11:53 ----------


That's some total bullshit.

a)Wrong Daniel. Ivan Kalita was a son of the Daniel Alexandrovich (prince of Moscow), not Daniel of Kiev.
b)Gleb Vasilkovich never had any daughters, only sons - Demian, Roman, Michael and Vasily.
c)Daniel's wife was called Maria not Theodora. She was of minor gentry, because Daniel himself was youngest of Alexander's sons, and noone expected that his line (princes of Moscow, which was a minor town then) would become so great.

Either you invent facts out of the blue, or you use some retarded bullshit source.


Tens on millions of so-called-east-slavs are infact Turks.

Tens of millions of so-called-white-americans are in fact American Indians.
Tens of millions of so-called-aussies are in fact Australian Aborigines.
...

If you had a clue about history, you'd know that those lands (Volga/Urals/Siberia/Caucasus) were colonized much later. They are colonies, that just happened to be on the same continent and not overseas, and should be treated as such.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-22, 11:56
I'm solid as touchstone

http://i46.tinypic.com/2crlk0g.jpg

---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 12:04 ----------



If you had a clue about history, you'd know that those lands (Volga/Urals/Siberia/Caucasus) were colonized much later. They are colonies, that just happened to be on the same continent and not overseas, and should be treated as such.

Those Kipchak lands harboured such major, long lasting cultures as Khazars (Turko-Jews) and Volga Bolgar (Tatars), not to speak of Polovtsy/Cumans etc. Most of their decendants call themselves Russian/Ukrainian today. Millions and millions of east Slavs are infact Turks. They are actually more Turks than the Turks of Turkey.

aeon
2010-01-22, 12:05
Not some Tatar lackey! Mongol Khan! :mad: , that same Khan was also blood brother of Alexander Nevsky. Alexander ofcource spend lot of his time with the Horde. He was basically white Mongol.

I made an slight error at the pedigree. Ivan IV is decendent from Gleb through Glebs daughter, Theothiure (Theodora). Theothiure was married to Daniel of Kiev. They had an son, Ivan Kalita.

Ofcource these Moscovitians had Mongol and even more so Kipchak blood and they were also very proud about it! They were vassals of the Khans remember! They were crowned by the Khans. Their military came from the Khans. They were nothing without the Khans!

Ridiculous bullshit not worth of commenting.


Moscovite trade was heavily towards the Khanates. No wonder, really:

Tens on millions of so-called-east-slavs are infact Turks. This includes pretty much everyone at Ukraine and half of Russians.

That would be reflected in genetics, wouldn't it?


TuR1an Powa!

You meant TuraN1an Powa, didn't you? It's everybody's knowledge that Finns are part of the Uralo-Altaic Brotherhood.

Cail
2010-01-22, 12:11
http://i46.tinypic.com/2crlk0g.jpg

This is bullshit. All other sources (including Russian) give different information. Kalita's mother was Maria, and Gleb never had any daughters. Surely an alleged mother of Prince of Moscow would have been mentioned among his children, but she never is.

aeon
2010-01-22, 12:16
I'm solid as touchstone

Sure, sure. I have found your source:


In 1251, Alexander Nevsky came to Sarai, befriended and bebrothered Sartaq, become his sworn brother (anda), and an adopted son of Khan Batu. In return, Alexander returned with a contingent of Tatars that took part in the Battle of the Ice.
http://tvwiki.tv/wiki/Sartaq


The Battle of the Ice also known as the Battle on Lake Peipus or the Battle of Lake Peipus (Russian: Ледовое побоище, German: Schlacht auf dem Peipussee, Estonian: Jäälahing), took place in 1242.
http://tvwiki.tv/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ice

Sartaq was an ancestor of Ivan the Terrible and a time machine inventor. :lol:

You are a sick man.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-22, 12:19
http://i45.tinypic.com/ixfvcw.jpg

All sources of Khan pedigrees tell the same :D :D

And it doesnt change the fact that millions of so-called-east Slavs are Turks. Khan powa!

Cail
2010-01-22, 12:22
And it doesnt change the fact that millions of so-called-east Slavs are Turks. Khan powa!
Yeah, and Finns are deer-herding Siberians, related to Nganasan and Selkup. Yaranga powa :confused:.

---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 12:24 ----------

http://www.spsl.nsc.ru/history/descr/spis35b.htm

Its Gleb Vasilkovich. Use Google-translate, and try to find any mention of daughters.

No decent historical source mentions him having any daughters, let alone mother of Ivan I.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-22, 12:28
Sure, sure. I have found your source:


My sources are multiple.




You are a sick man.

I'm glad you also approve that Battle of Neva was actually battle between the white man and Mongol Horde, led by honorary Mongol miniKhan, Alexander Nevsky (voted as greatest Russian).

Finns, keeping the Horde at Bay, since 1240 AD.
http://anderssonostblom.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/suomi-leijona2.jpg

Guess why there is Tatar sword under the feet of Finnish lion ?

aeon
2010-01-22, 12:35
All sources of Khan pedigrees tell the same

No sources tell anything of this kind. And the name "Theothiure" does not exist. The wacko who invented this stuff did not even care to make it verisimilar.


And it doesnt change the fact that millions of so-called-east Slavs are Turks. Khan powa!

You are a true TuraN1an.

Cail
2010-01-22, 12:38
My sources are multiple.
Give 1 (one) academic one please.


I'm glad you also approve that Battle of Neva was actually battle between the white man and Mongol Horde, led by honorary Mongol miniKhan, Alexander Nevsky (voted as greatest Russian).
This battle was a result of conflicting interests. Sweden was crusading Circumbaltica around that time, trying to catholicize it, and Novgorod was also expanding around the Baltic sea. Battle of Neva was a battle between Swedes and Russians. Neither of them were Finns, Mongols, or some other weird people. The only Finns in the battle were "Sum' and Jem' tribes" on both sides (actually they were being conquered by both Swedes and Novgorod and thus were forced to participate as militia on both sides).


Finns, keeping the Horde at Bay, since 1240 AD.
Lol. More like "Finns, living in swamps and tundra since forever, before Swedes and/or Russians come and bring civilization to them".

aeon
2010-01-22, 12:41
Guess why there is Tatar sword under the feet of Finnish lion ?

I guess it symbolizes Swedes trampling on Fenno-Mongolics.

Cail
2010-01-22, 12:43
Taking these facts into consideration, it has been suggested in a recent book aimed at wide readership, that the Swedish expedition may have been an indirect result from the papal letter in 1237 that was sent to the Swedish Archbishop of Uppsala. The letter eloquently called for a crusade, not against Novgorod, but against Tavastians in Finland, who had allegedly started hostilities against the church. In his defunct position, the king may not have been willing or able to react, but the letter may have provided the frustrated folkungs an opportunity to regain part of their Viking Age glory. Mostly free to react without interference from the king, folkungs would have been able to raise an army of their own, get voluntaries from Norway and even assistance from Thomas, the independent Bishop of Finland, who needed to constantly worry about the attacks from the east. Instead of Tavastia, this mixed set of interests and nationalities would have headed for the more lucrative Neva and there met its fate in the hands of Alexander. In the possible aftermath of the said battle, the King of Norway approached his Swedish counterpart for peace talks in 1241, but was turned down at the time.


Yep.

Pallantides
2010-01-22, 12:48
Snow Mongolians, swamp Mongolians, forest Mongolians, coastal mongolains, tundra Mongolians and mountain Mongolians.
There seem to be a lot of infighting within the Golden horde in this thread.

Cail
2010-01-22, 13:05
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9991/123dmt.jpg

I'm gonna be the Il-Khan.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-22, 17:46
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9991/123dmt.jpg



Well, things could be worse. We could be French.

Anyhow, since all comments besides mine are borderline retarded, I win. :thumbsup:

aeon
2010-01-23, 14:58
Well, things could be worse. We could be French.

Anyhow, since all comments besides mine are borderline retarded, I win. :thumbsup:

Since you are the only one to cross the line. :lol:

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-23, 22:43
Since you are the only one to cross the line. :lol:

Few sources to aeon and cail to digest:

The Mongol empire: its rise and legacy , Michael Prawdin, Gerard Chaliand

Russia and the Golden Horde: the Mongol impact on medieval Russian history , Charles J. Halperin

I also suggest Halperins; Tsarev ulus : Russia in the Golden Horde , none of the citations are from this study. I'll save it for later, it is dynamite.


Few nice notes:

http://i50.tinypic.com/fe2ck8.jpg

Ooh-la-la

http://i48.tinypic.com/2i0b254.jpg

and

http://i45.tinypic.com/2gv4o5d.jpg

I'm so right that it allmost causes me pain to deliver info to you guys, sorry.

Polako
2010-01-24, 01:00
This thread's going way off topic. Get back on topic or I won't post any of those PCAs with all the Finns and Scandinavians I've "collected".

aeon
2010-01-24, 09:14
Few sources to aeon and cail to digest:


Halperin blindly follows Eurasianist bullshit. Take this, for example:


The title of Tsar had before this in Russia given only to Mongolian Khans.
The title of Tsar (Emperor) was given also to Greek and German Emperors.

Mongolian Khans were called Emperors everywhere in Europe.


Moscow was the direct and lawful heir of the Golden Horde.

The direct and lawful heirs of the Golden Horde were the Tatar Khanates into which it split in the 15th century, namely, the Big Horde, the Crimean Khanate, the Kazan Khanate, the Astrakhan Khanate, the Siberian Khanate, the Kazakh Khanate and the Nogai Horde. After the Crimean Khanate defeated the Big Horde in 1502, the Crimean Khan Mengli Girey assumed the title of Kagan, i.e. the supreme Mongol/Tatar ruler and successor to Genghis Khan, whose direct descendant he was. From the 16th to the 18th centuries Moscow was in constant war with Tatar Khanates, especially the Crimean Khanate. It is noteworthy that at the same time Sweden had an anti-Russian military alliance with the Crimean Khanate, i.e. was in brotherhood with the true direct and lawful heir of the Golden Horde. :lol:

Evi
2010-01-24, 10:26
This thread's going way off topic. Get back on topic or I won't post any of those PCAs with all the Finns and Scandinavians I've "collected".
Ignore them, please. Here are other posters around, who would be interested into the original topic.

I agree that discussion has gone off topic, maybe some moderator could move off-topic to other place?

I must add that Karhunkynsi has proved himself as not very intelligent person in discussions. He not only tries to claim strange things, but also provides not very respectful sources. But also Russian posters aren't exactly without fault. Even though they have better access to sources in regards to Russian history, and have better knowledge, their views on several issues are twisted. That's my opinion.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-24, 12:31
I agree that discussion has gone off topic, maybe some moderator could move off-topic to other place?



Now you think Russia's Mongol and Tartar heritage is off-topic while just few posts back you were championing the view that Finns tightly cluster with North Russians.. :lol:

Admit that Finns cluster with North Russians due to "Finnish"-part at North Russians. You add Mongols, Ukrainians, Tartars etc. to the analysis and you see different results because North Russians have other influences (Mongol, Tartar, Slav) what Finns dont have. Check mate.



I must add that Karhunkynsi has proved himself as not very intelligent person in discussions. He not only tries to claim strange things, but also provides not very respectful sources.


Strange things ? Nope. Not respectfull sources ?? orly ?

http://i46.tinypic.com/bfmlgx.jpg

Go back to your teepee chunty.

Evi
2010-01-24, 13:31
Now you think Russia's Mongol and Tartar heritage is off-topic while just few posts back you were championing the view that Finns tightly cluster with North Russians.. :lol:
I want to see what Polako could say here.


Admit that Finns cluster with North Russians due to "Finnish"-part at North Russians. You add Mongols, Ukrainians, Tartars etc. to the analysis and you see different results because North Russians have other influences (Mongol, Tartar, Slav) what Finns dont have. Check mate.
OK, but you have to be little bit more objective. No reasons to claim that Russians are "half-tatars" or that they have "strong-mongol influence", I am sure it is not truth. The majority of Russians look like Central Europeans, quite many have also southern influences (so they look like pontids etc.). After it comes northern influences - Finnic and Baltic, so that's why you can see Russians, who would not stick out f.e. in rural Finnish countryside. And only then come really eastern influences, I mean Mongoloid, which you definately can see apart, because it means black hair or certain shape of eyes.


The distribution of influences in various regions of Russia differ, and you can see it when travelling there. Most strongly Mongoloid-influenced people you can see f.e. in Ekaterinburg or Tyumen, where you can see lots of chicks or guys with ambiguous looks. But you should know that Ekaterinburg is town, which is very close to European-Asian border (in past this division didn't exist at all), while Tyumen IS Asian town, because it is in Siberia. But in Udmurtia you won't see such types anymore so often, at least not so openly and clearly ambiguous. Instead, there are lots of people of "Lappoid" phenotype, and it is something different. You can check this thread: https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=2223

More to the west, the less you see mongoloid types. In Vologda, town which is even more west, people are already similar to Finnish types. But St.Petersburg's region came to me as surprise, as it contained many people with clearly Baltic appearance, and it was really light-pigmented region in comparision to other places in Russia. Honestly saying, there was some difference between St.Petersburg's people and Vologda people, the latter missed some "Baltic" element IMO. St.Petersburg came as surprise with some people, who had very pinky cheeks and naturally very light hair, they had definately different skin type than usually, which is very thin and seemingly burns quickly in the sun, also body types seemed to be heavier built than usually. In the first moments I thought they were Finns or Estonians, but the people spoke between themselves in Russian language, so IMO they were Russians.

You just have to see with your own eyes all of this, because it would make to understand how diverse Russia is. Central Russians are not same as Northern Russians, and neither are same as Russians from Volga or Ural region (BTW it is said that almost all Russians from Komi republic have at least some Komi roots). On other hand, many people in Russia have migrated from one region to another, they were mixing between themselves, so there are not strongly divided regions anymore. But still, visible regional division still exists. Some people from St.Petersburg would look almost foreign in Ekaterinburg, while I am sure that some people from Ekaterinburg would stick out in Vologda. On other hand though, my Finnish friend did not stick out anywhere, except maybe for his dressing style. As some Russian guys said in Western Siberia: "if he would wear local style of clothes, and keep his mouth shut, he would easily pass for a local here, nobody would know that he isn't from Russia".


Go back to your teepee chunty.
Hirsitalo is typical house of my family and ancestors, where for generations have lived my mother, grandmother and grandfather and great-grand...Hirsitalo has been typical type of housing for Latvians, Khanty, also Finns. Also Russians and Norwegians. It is good Finno-Ugric invention.


P.S. Hirsitalo in Finnish language means "wooden log house".

Teepees in different variants have been spread through Northern Europe, even in Northern Latvia have been teepee-like summer kitchens. Also in Estonian open-air museums I've seen such kind of thing.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-25, 10:51
Testing......

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-26, 21:09
I want to see Polako's graphs!

Example of North Russian type, which is widely distributed from Archangel to Vologda
http://www.kp.ru/upimg/photo/100856.jpg

Example of South-Central Russian type, frequently encountered, for example, in the Kuban.:
http://www.kp.ru/upimg/photo/100855.jpg

Viking
2010-01-26, 21:15
I want to see the graphs too. :)

Evi
2010-01-27, 12:06
I want to see Polako's graphs!

Example of North Russian type, which is widely distributed from Archangel to Vologda
http://www.kp.ru/upimg/photo/100856.jpg

Example of South-Central Russian type, frequently encountered, for example, in the Kuban.:
http://www.kp.ru/upimg/photo/100855.jpg
What about Udmurts, Karhunkynsi, they have been split from Finns since Neolithic? :)

Veeery cherrypicked photo of an Udmurt woman :p

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Udmurti/IMG_2001.jpg

Nah, Udmurts were seperated from Finns since Paleolithic, and these Udmurtic people are good proof for this theory :lol:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Udmurti/drtjue.jpg

aeon
2010-01-27, 12:27
Example of the general Finnish type, which is widely distributed from north to south and from east to west of Finland:

http://www.evapersson.com/Portrait/Big/02.jpg

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 12:37
Two politicians from Finland, a representants of two different ethnicities from the same Region (each from their respective, adjacent, linguistic region).

Both have great smiles!

Finland-Swede, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Närpes), a representant of Indo-European (Scandinavian, Eastern branch) culture. (Swedish People's party)

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/uutiset/kotimaa/poliitikot/74612.jpg

a Finn, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Seinäjoki), a representant of Uralic (Western branch), Arctic culture. (Agrarian party)

http://www.marikiviniemi.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/mari-sivulta.jpg

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 12:53
Example of the general Finnish type, which is widely distributed from north to south and from east to west of Finland:

http://www.evapersson.com/Portrait/Big/02.jpg

She has stated that her apperance comes from her Russian and Swedish ancestry.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 12:56
She has stated that her apperance comes from her Russian and Swedish ancestry.

............................

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 13:08
Two yound studs from Finland, a representants of two different ethnicities from the same Region (each from their respective, adjacent, linguistic region).

Finland-Swede, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Oravais), a representant of Indo-European (Scandinavian, Eastern branch) culture :
http://pt.uefa.com/ml/images/players/under21/324x324/69658.jpg

a Finn, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Seinäjoki), a representant of Uralic (Western branch), Arctic culture.

http://img.sub.fi/mn_kuvat/sub/ohjelmat/duudsonit/851642.jpg

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 13:15
Two yound studs from Finland, a representants of two different ethnicities from the same Region (each from their respective, adjacent, linguistic region).

Finland-Swede, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Oravais), a representant of Indo-European (Scandinavian, Eastern branch) culture :
http://pt.uefa.com/ml/images/players/under21/324x324/69658.jpg

a Finn, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Seinäjoki), a representant of Uralic (Western branch), Arctic culture.

http://img.sub.fi/mn_kuvat/sub/ohjelmat/duudsonit/851642.jpg


the last guy is an ugly horseface, the Finland-Swede only got funny looking eyes...I don't get it now you're trying to prove that Finland-Sweder are more physically attractive than Finns?

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 13:22
What about Udmurts, Karhunkynsi, they have been split from Finns since Neolithic? :)


Those people dont look like Finns. I'm sure you can cherrypick Finnish looking Udmurts, I'm not going to argue about that.

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 13:26
http://www.chillnite.com/wp-content/gallery/pekka-eric_auvinen___jokela_high_school_massacre/Natural%20Selector%208.png
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/08/0911_finland_wideweb__470x455,0.jpg

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 13:27
the last guy is an ugly horseface, the Finland-Swede only got funny looking eyes...I don't get it now you're trying to prove that Finland-Sweder are more physically attractive than Finns?

My point was to answer equally stupid post to Petteri's retarded post. There is nothing wrong about Tim Sparv. He is future star of Finlands national soccer team.

Viking
2010-01-27, 13:29
How about my Uralic Finnish grandfather from Southern Ostrobothnia? :evilgrin:

http://i33.tinypic.com/2l9h5yu.jpg

Edit: Compare him to my purely Finland-Swedish father. Who is the most "Norse"-looking?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2b4n46.jpg

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 13:34
Two yound studs from Finland, a representants of two different ethnicities from the same Region (each from their respective, adjacent, linguistic region).


:thumbsup:Dog......no chances with this game,

The most famous, ever, Finland-Swedish A-Squad player

http://www.noga.pl/pilka_nozna/zd/pilkarze/birmingham/forssell_mikael.jpg

The most famous, ever, Finn-A-squad-player dadaa....

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/28385.gif

6-0 for me:lol:

Evi
2010-01-27, 13:38
a Finn, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Seinäjoki), a representant of Uralic (Western branch), Arctic culture. (Agrarian party)

http://www.marikiviniemi.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/mari-sivulta.jpg
Oh my gosh, she looks like one teacher from my university in Latvia! That's what I talk about:

http://foto.lu.lv/HI-RES/arhiivs/2007/c_mar/06/IMG_1125.JPG


She is originally from Eastern Latvia, Latgale. I noticed that there are quite some people with "Finnic" features.

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 13:43
How about my Uralic Finnish grandfather from Southern Ostrobothnia? :evilgrin:

http://i33.tinypic.com/2l9h5yu.jpg

Edit: Compare him to my purely Finland-Swedish father. Who is the most "Norse"-looking?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2b4n46.jpg

My great great great grandfather is the most Norse!:)
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/skann_0045.jpg

He was 100% Norwegian

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 13:44
Oh my gosh, she looks like one teacher from my university in Latvia! That's what I talk about:


Actually I should have posted this Finland-Swedish lady instead, they are both current ministers in the Finnish goverment.

Finland-Swedish, minister of immigration issues, A. Thors (Swedish People's party), I actually voted for her
http://kuvat2.iltasanomat.fi/iltasanomat/iDoc/1353185-thors400.jpg

Kiviniemi

http://valtioneuvosto.fi/ajankohtaista/kuvapankki/kuvakansio/ministerit/09-kiviniemi/kiviniemi.jpg

Great Smiles, again

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 13:48
Kiviniemi

http://valtioneuvosto.fi/ajankohtaista/kuvapankki/kuvakansio/ministerit/09-kiviniemi/kiviniemi.jpg

Great Smiles, again

http://www.ksml.fi/multimedia/dynamic/00049/5962002_jpg_49124a1.jpg

Hmm she wouldn't stand out in Norway.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 13:50
:thumbsup:Dog......no chances with this game,


Ofcource I have :lol:

The only famous, ever, Finland-Swedish A-Squad player

http://www.noga.pl/pilka_nozna/zd/pilkarze/birmingham/forssell_mikael.jpg

The most famous, ever, Finn-A-squad-player dadaa....

http://static.iltalehti.fi/jalkapallo/juttuhyypialeverMP_jp.jpg

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 13:55
Ofcource I have :lol:

The only famous, ever, Finland-Swedish A-Squad player


The most famous, ever, Finn-A-squad-player dadaa....


Breach of rules....I am afraid.

You are comparing defense player to a striker....that's unfair.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 14:04
Okay Petteri.. how about this Norwegian-Swedish addition to Finnish genepool :

http://www.seiska.fi/c/87840/9179_60020892.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/neitib/R0aqWAGhNRI/AAAAAAAAAY8/bNoVwd4KDxM/s400/marie.jpg

Arctic Uralic or Indo-European Scandinavian (west branch) ?

Pallantides
2010-01-27, 14:14
bottle blonde?

Viking
2010-01-27, 14:16
Here are randomly picked Swedish Ostrobothnians (don't blame me, I just took them from the Österbotten group on Facebook) :

http://www.facebook.com/katrin.vikman
http://www.facebook.com/johan.r.sjoberg
http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Vistbacka/557668045
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jenny-Nyman/1494855799
http://www.facebook.com/people/Ida-Heim/521963691
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jessica-Astrand/535907471
http://www.facebook.com/people/Nina-Lundqvist/611083431
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jenny-Maria-Ahlstedt/590232233
http://www.facebook.com/camilla.mannil
http://www.facebook.com/people/Camilla-Kanckos/649473402
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joel-Sjoblom/649990937
http://www.facebook.com/people/Kenneth-Dahlin/600643900
http://www.facebook.com/people/Sabina-Nylund/823514780
http://www.facebook.com/people/Klaus-Soderback/616269397
http://www.facebook.com/jan.frosten
http://www.facebook.com/jenni.k.soderman
http://www.facebook.com/runa.ismark
http://www.facebook.com/people/Emma-Eklund/1276084699
http://www.facebook.com/annika.forss
http://www.facebook.com/people/Britt-Ostergard/100000208141965
http://www.facebook.com/ida.clark1
http://www.facebook.com/people/Malena-Lindell/724796298

Now I don't have the energy to go on anymore. When it comes to whether one is "Uralic"-looking or not, it's up to you to decide. ;)

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 14:23
Here are randomly picked Swedish Ostrobothnians (don't blame me, I just took them from the Österbotten group on Facebook) :



Surprisingly they look like everyday Finnish average Joes. Oh boy, Pete is mentally collapsing atm.

---------- Post added 2010-01-27 at 14:24 ----------


bottle blonde?

She is some ex- Miss Sweden or smthng like that. Lets wait Pete's insightfull analysis about her :lol:

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 14:55
Surprisingly they look like everyday Finnish average Joes. Oh boy, Pete is mentally collapsing atm.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added 2010-01-27 at 14:24 ----------




LOL. :D NOT!

Apart from the first few ones on the list which Viking cherry-picked and placed in the beginning, after he got tired we see the how things really are.

Average Finnish "joes" do not look like this.

http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?oid=AAAAAQAQM91dIkYdpZbTmg0hSSd0ggAAAAlp0W BOwwZo8n2wuA_Nspjn&size=normal

Why did you left this beauty last on your list, Viking?

http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?oid=AAAAAQAQhmP5O4Xt2tAStMi0QUs6CwAAAAkZiQ ZBkBLka_kmMlNQoSMN&size=normal


She is some ex- Miss Sweden or smthng like that. Lets wait Pete's insightfull analysis about her

Not really my cup of tea, atleast lookwise. I don't think there's anything exotic in her look, though, unlike with the case of mr. Sparv.

My cup of tea is epitomized in this Ostrobotnian municipality leader of Swedish People's party, Vasa (Ostrobotnia) district.

Mrs. Wivan

http://www.kvinnoforbundet.fi/images/rdval%202007/kandidiatpresentation%20/WivanNygardFagerudd.jpg


Here's a true random sample of Ostrobotnian-Swedes, the municipality board of Vasa city (Swedish People's party)

http://www.vaasa.fi/Pa_svenska/Offentliga_tjanster/Stadens_organisation/Fortroendevalda/Stadsfullmaktige/Fullmaktigegrupper

http://su.fi/images/personer/oscar_ohlis_webb.jpg
http://vasa.sfp.fi/data/images/106/25%20frantz%20hans%2070.jpg
http://vasa.sfp.fi/data/images/106/45%20nygard-fagerudd%20wivan%2070.jpg
http://vasa.sfp.fi/data/images/106/55%20skatar%20kaj%2070.jpg

Viking can post the Finnic members of this Ostrobotnian city counsil.

Evi
2010-01-27, 14:58
Those people dont look like Finns. I'm sure you can cherrypick Finnish looking Udmurts, I'm not going to argue about that.
This is most non-Finnish looking Udmurt crowd I could find, check out the guy in left side, for example.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Udmurti/jyftcyitfyii.jpg

Maybe this is even better, here are two women who would be probably regarded as East Asians in Finland.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Udmurti/hfurtu.jpg

Another thrustingly Udmurt people, but hell, they are not more non-Finnish than in previous pictures:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Udmurti/1208710987.jpg

Let's be serious. Some of them are exotic for Finnish standarts, some aren't.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 15:24
Not really my cup of tea.


Oh, so this is how it is now ? :lol:

Didnt like the craniofacial morphology ?

:lol::whoco:



My cup of tea is epitomized in this Ostrobotnian municipality leader of Swedish People's party, Vasa (Ostrobotnia) district.



Why this sudden interest to hillbilly Ostrobothniates ? You are self-proclaimed sole defender of Helsingfors Urbanite Swedophones. According to you, only place outside Ringroad III you have ever visited is your summercottage at Tammisaari.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 15:26
Let's be serious. Some of them are exotic for Finnish standarts, some aren't.

Nah.....it's only the folk costumes.

BTW this youth-leader of Finnish agrarian party look very Finnish, in an extreme stereotypic way, he has the blondness, as well, which make Finns so proud.


He has paid some heavy critisism towards Mrs Thors.
http://www.vihrealanka.fi/files/lanka/images/imagefield/kurvinen_antti.jpg

http://www.verkkoapila.fi/opencms/export/sites/default/apila/images/AnttiKurvinen-5164.jpg_817773799.jpg

---------- Post added 2010-01-27 at 15:28 ----------




Why this sudden interest to hillbilly Ostrobothniates ? You are self-proclaimed sole defender of Helsingfors Urbanite Swedophones. According to you, only place outside Ringroad III you have ever visited is your summercottage at Tammisaari.

:ashamed::ashamed: Let just say that I've matured.


Didnt like the craniofacial morphology ?

It's the only feature I love in her looks. Anyway, anything that alleviates the Finnish tendency for national deseases caused by inbredness should be awarded with a metal. Hopefully we get more immigrants to Finland in the future, it's literally life-and-death issue to Finns and should be number one in the agenda for the nationalistic Finnish preservement movement. (And I ain't talking about domestic immigrants from Järvi-Suomi to Helsingfors).

Aino
2010-01-27, 15:40
PTG, when are you going to get the 23andme test? It should be interesting. :)

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 15:48
PTG, when are you going to get the 23andme test? It should be interesting. :)

As soon I have the dough for it, I am currently putting all my money in project that does not pay in a while, and literally I almost live hand to mouth at the moment; eating at the student cafeteria's, drinking the regular coffee instead of the fair trade version...etc.

Viking
2010-01-27, 15:56
I also wonder a little why Petteri protects Swedish Ostrobothnians. As far as I know, some or perhaps even many Swedish Ostrobothnians are common folk like the rest of most people in Finland. Take my family from Swedish Ostrobothnia as an example. My ancestry lineage consists mostly of farmers and a little burgess lineage too. I doubt very strongly that I have relatives or ancestors that ever voted for Svenska Folkpartiet (SFP).

So Petteri, is the bilingual Swedish Ostrobothnian average worker who doesn't vote SFP and dislikes immigrants really as worthy as you better folk from the South and Southwest? :)

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 16:43
So Petteri, is the bilingual Swedish Ostrobothnian average worker who doesn't vote SFP and dislikes immigrants really as worthy as you better folk from the South and Southwest? :)

1) What the f*** is a "bi-lingual Swedish Ostrobotnian", such a thing has not existed, atleast not for long.

"Ålänningarna har varit guld värda för oss i riket - liksom envist svenska österbottningar. Utan dem skulle svenskan vara ännu mera undanskymd. Tyvärr är det så att dåliga kunskaper i finska stöder svenskan. Detta är ett problem. Det borde vara tvärtom: Ju bättre man kan finska desto mer kontakt borde man få på svenska". -Höckerstedt, 2009.

"Dåliga kunskaper i finska vid Optima"
http://yle.fi/svenska/nyheter/regionartikel.php?id=4203

2) SFP is dominated by Ostrobotnias and controlled by mostly Ostrobotnians, so I really do not catch with your halluzinations. Most of the votes for SFP comes from Ostrobotnia (also in non-regionally bound EU elections). An increasing amount of Finland-Swedes in the South, and even bigger share of bi-linguals (although, it might have changed very recently followed by the hostile reaction Swedish language meet in todays Finland) votes Finnish-speaking parties. It's the monolingually Swedish Ostrobotnia that keeps the party alive.

3) Ostrobotnians Swedes do not dislike immigrants in fact out of all regional groups they are most positive to immigration, and no wonder, the immigration in Finland started from Swedish Ostrobotnia in the 70's. In general Finland-Swedes are (significantly?) more positive towards immigration than Finns, and most positive group of Finlands Swedes are Ostrobotnians and Ålanders.

"Finlandssvenskarna mer positiva till invandring än folkmajoriteten".
http://www.magma.fi/magma-media/fragor-om-invandring

"De mest kritiska till ökad invandring är unga män, nylänningar och åbolänningar. Kvinnor, österbottningar, ålänningar och de äldre är mer toleranta.

Yle frågade migrationsminister Astrid Thors (SFP) vad hon tror att förklarar de regionala skillnaderna. Thors säger att orsaken är att samhällena i Österbotten och på Åland är mindre och att österbottningar ofta har personliga relationer till folk med invandrarbakgrund. Det ändrar enligt henne på förutfattade meningar".

http://www.hbl.fi/text/inrikes/2009/12/30/w41490.php

4) I wonder, is it possible to pack more BS in such a short post you made. It's rather obvious that you don't have a clue about Finland, let alone Finland-Swedes.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 17:57
Let's be serious. Some of them are exotic for Finnish standarts, some aren't.

Nonsense.

http://www.newsru.com/russia/28sep2005/russians.html

"the genetic distance between a Russian and the so-called Finno-Ugric peoples (Mari Vepsians, etc.) residing in the territory of Russia, is 2.3 units. Simply put, they are genetically almost identical."

You are saying that Finns are like Russians genetically. I'm officially insulted.

PeterThaGreat
2010-01-27, 18:01
Nonsense.

http://www.newsru.com/russia/28sep2005/russians.html

"the genetic distance between a Russian and the so-called Finno-Ugric peoples (Mari Vepsians, etc.) residing in the territory of Russia, is 2.3 units. Simply put, they are genetically almost identical."



That's consistent with DNAtribes data which shows that, atleast Mari's are genetically more "European" than Finns are on average.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 18:07
That's consistent with DNAtribes data which shows that, atleast Mari's are genetically more "European" than Finns are on average.

I had a look at that too. Absolutely hilarious. Well, they lost all their credibility long time ago.

Evi
2010-01-27, 18:25
Nonsense.

http://www.newsru.com/russia/28sep2005/russians.html

"the genetic distance between a Russian and the so-called Finno-Ugric peoples (Mari Vepsians, etc.) residing in the territory of Russia, is 2.3 units. Simply put, they are genetically almost identical."
Hilarious. And you believe that?


You are saying that Finns are like Russians genetically. I'm officially insulted.
Get over it, please. And I was talking about Northern Russians only. Everybody know, at least in Russia, that they have Finnic admixture.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 18:33
And I was talking about Northern Russians only. Everybody know, at least in Russia, that they have Finnic admixture.

Wrong. They have Slavo-Tartarian-Mongolian admixture and there has been case example of language change, rather recently even (see Saarikivi 2008). Calling the autochtonous core component as admixture is simply wrong.

Evi
2010-01-27, 18:40
Wrong. They have Slavo-Tartarian-Mongolian admixture and there has been case example of language change, rather recently even (see Saarikivi 2008). Calling the autochtonous core component as admixture is simply wrong.
OMG what a bullshit. :whoco:

Could you care at least take some book from library and read something about actual history in Volga region? And interactions between people there? Do you know that Tatars are/were mostly Muslims, Russians are/were Christians, but Udmurts or Maris remained largely paganic until recently? Do you know what are relationships between various religious groups, do you seriously think that Muslims would really mix with Christians or Pagans? Of course they mixed anyway, but I am afraid that not to such a level as you think.

You have left out of sight the religion question. Which has been important issue in Volga region, just like in other places. And BTW the relationships between Lutherans and Orthodox Christians must have been different than relationships between Christians and Muslims, what you think?

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-27, 19:25
What has that rant to do with North Russians ? Besides there are christian Tatars, like Snowelf. Anyhow, like I pointed out in other thread Golden Horde only switched to islam 1313. When Golden Horde collapsed myriads of both Mongols and Tartars were employed by the Moscovite state, as soldiers and as bureucrats. They often switched to christianity and became Russians.

tigereatmen
2010-01-28, 12:02
Finland football team

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy312/imuza33/finnishfootballteam3.jpg

There are two Finlandswedes in the team

Linda Sällström
http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy312/imuza33/96555.jpg

Annica Sjölund
http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy312/imuza33/59611.jpg

Polako
2010-01-29, 04:29
Here's my neighbourhood on the deCODEme 1-2-3 European plot. This shows the intra-European genomic variation across the three main ancestral components being tested.

Right click and save as (please don't quote the link or repost anywhere else)...

intra-European 1-2-3 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5229/north1.gif)

East Finn FI13
West Finn FI3
South Finn F1

Others are mixed or I don't know their ancestry.

Polako PL1
Aino FI2
Wojewoda PL3
Mejensen DK3
Pallantides NO5
Evon NO7

As far as I can tell, deCODEme breaks up the PCAs into grids, and the people shown above are all in grids 2 for both their X and Y values, just like me. I couldn't plot someone like drgs, for example, because he's in grid 2 for X and grid 3 for Y. I have no idea how to combine the different grids for X and Y at the moment.

The thing to note is that some of these people might not be the average representatives of their respective nations. For example, PL1 (me) has ancestry from around the Baltic, possibly from as far north as Estonia. DE2 is from eastern Germany. PL2 shows unusually high pairwise scores with Scandinavians at 23andMe. PL3 (Wojewoda) might also be an I1* crypto-Goth. NL1 is an outlier compared to other Dutchmen, who cluster just off the grid next to NO7 (Evon).

Also please note the main global plot looks very different. All the North/Central Euros cluster together, while the Finns and Russians stretch out from the North/Central European grouping towards, and well into, the one made up of North Russians. I'll make a graph of that one soon.

Wojewoda
2010-01-29, 05:47
PL2 shows unusually high pairwise scores with Scandinavians at 23andMe.

Who is PL2?


PL3 (Wojewoda) might also be an I1* crypto-Goth.

I seem to be very close to PL2, so are most of the Poles crypto-Scandinavians/Goths then? What about the others deCODEme Poles?

Polako
2010-01-29, 05:54
Who is PL2?

You should have him already, but I'll PM you his nick in a sec...


I seem to be very close to PL2, so are most of the Poles crypto-Scandinavians/Goths then? What about the others deCODEme Poles?

The three of us are the most "northern" Poles at deCODEme. I have 9 all up on my contact list, and they largely cluster close to the eastern German.

Karhunkynsi
2010-01-29, 08:19
Good job Polako! That looks pretty credible.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-01-29, 08:50
Example of the general Finnish type, which is widely distributed from north to south and from east to west of Finland:

http://www.evapersson.com/Portrait/Big/02.jpg

You idiot! In an interview in a Finnish magazine she was specifically asked where her, by Finnish standards, exotic looks came from and she disclosed she had a Russian grandparent and thought herself it was from there...
The interview was posted at HBF a year ago.
:lol::lol:

---------- Post added 2010-01-29 at 08:52 ----------


Two politicians from Finland, a representants of two different ethnicities from the same Region (each from their respective, adjacent, linguistic region).

Both have great smiles!

Finland-Swede, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Närpes), a representant of Indo-European (Scandinavian, Eastern branch) culture. (Swedish People's party)

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/uutiset/kotimaa/poliitikot/74612.jpg

a Finn, from Southern Ostrobotnia (Seinäjoki), a representant of Uralic (Western branch), Arctic culture. (Agrarian party)

http://www.marikiviniemi.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/mari-sivulta.jpg

Total idiotism as usual displayed by the without contest most ignorant member on this board.

---------- Post added 2010-01-29 at 08:57 ----------



:ashamed::ashamed: Let just say that I've matured.


Let's just say your imagination is that you have "matured"...

---------- Post added 2010-01-29 at 08:58 ----------


PTG, when are you going to get the 23andme test? It should be interesting. :)

Considering Peters Finnish input (which he denies) he might cluster with you Aino...

---------- Post added 2010-01-29 at 09:00 ----------


I also wonder a little why Petteri protects Swedish Ostrobothnians. As far as I know, some or perhaps even many Swedish Ostrobothnians are common folk like the rest of most people in Finland. Take my family from Swedish Ostrobothnia as an example. My ancestry lineage consists mostly of farmers and a little burgess lineage too. I doubt very strongly that I have relatives or ancestors that ever voted for Svenska Folkpartiet (SFP).

So Petteri, is the bilingual Swedish Ostrobothnian average worker who doesn't vote SFP and dislikes immigrants really as worthy as you better folk from the South and Southwest? :)

It's because PTG has very double standards. If he sees a Finn skiing in -15'C he would despise him as a Forrest uralic gettting his pathetic dose of primal nature but if its a Swede doing the exact same things he's a sporty Germanic conquering nature...

---------- Post added 2010-01-29 at 09:07 ----------


I had a look at that too. Absolutely hilarious. Well, they lost all their credibility long time ago.

DNA tribes is openly regarded as a mock company...

Polako
2010-01-30, 08:08
Ok, I added a few more samples and got a snapshot of a different angle of the same graph.

(right click and save as)

intra-European 1-2-3: North 1 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5229/north1.gif)

intra-European 1-2-3: North 2 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1610/north2.gif)

aeon
2010-01-30, 09:17
You idiot! In an interview in a Finnish magazine she was specifically asked where her, by Finnish standards, exotic looks came from and she disclosed she had a Russian grandparent ...

That is why she is not fully Mongoloid... :p

Evi
2010-01-30, 09:24
Ok, I added a few more samples and got a snapshot of a different angle of the same graph.

(right click and save as)

intra-European 1-2-3: North 1 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5229/north1.gif)

intra-European 1-2-3: North 2 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1610/north2.gif)
Polako, can you tell your verdict about Finns? Are they really outliers, do differences exist between Western Finns and Eastern Finns, are Finns really closer to Russians than to Swedes etc.?

Many things are already clear from the graphs, but I want to hear your opinions.

Polako
2010-01-30, 10:21
Polako, can you tell your verdict about Finns? Are they really outliers, do differences exist between Western Finns and Eastern Finns, are Finns really closer to Russians than to Swedes etc.?

Many things are already clear from the graphs, but I want to hear your opinions.

I don't think Finns are really outliers. They're just Northeast Europeans, and groups from that region show comparatively unusual behaviour largely because of demographic factors, and also some Uralic admix. Latvians come out as relative outliers compared to Central and Northwest Europeans for similar reasons. That's why people interested in population genetics should realize that unusual positions on PCAs and blown out Fst scores don't always mean radically different ancestry, but are easily influenced by stuff like drift and founder effect.

Basically, if we correct for such things, Finns fit in nicely between Sweden and Northern Russia. Lots of southern and western Finns have Swedish and other Germanic influence, which pulls them towards Scandinavia and Central Europe from a starting point way up north. On the other hand, eastern and northern Finns often have some Saami admix which takes them the opposite way. Russians with recent Fenno-Scandinavian ancestry gravitate towards southern and western Finns, and also towards Scandinavia, while those with eastern Finnish influence pull east. That's why some Russians and some Finns end up overlapping on various PCAs, but for somewhat different reasons. Other Russians are closer to Central Europe, while others still travel more southeast.

If you add a lot of the right people at deCODEme, you'll see these patterns very clearly on the PCAs over there. At the moment, there's no reference group from Finland, but that might be a good thing, because right now the plots illustrate quite well the different west and northeast influences in modern Finns, almost showing two seperate clusters of west and east Finns.

Polako
2010-02-01, 01:47
Here's the inter-continental 1-2-3 plot, including most of the same people.

(right click and save as)

North 3 (http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7681/north3.gif)
North 4 (http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3036/north4.gif)

Karhunkynsi
2010-02-02, 21:00
Very interesting. Who is RU2 ?

Polako
2010-02-03, 00:08
Very interesting. Who is RU2 ?

Just an ethnic Russian guy I'm sharing data with. He's not a member here.

FYI, Turks with inflated East Eurasian affinity, people from the Caucasus, and the Adygei references, cluster in the empty side facing away from the walls, or they're just off the grid in that area. Same with people who have recent East Asian admix, except they're placed much further that way off the grid.

So as far as this analysis is concerned, I can't see any Turkic influence in the Russians I'm sharing with, nor any genuine East Asian (Mongol) admix. But most of them are certainly showing some Uralic ancestry by clustering towards that corner with the Finns. Only RU4, from western Russia, is firmly with the North/Central Euros.

Karhunkynsi
2010-02-03, 08:47
What is your methdology behind these graphs ? Is there some "european average" to which everyone is compared and then placed on to the chart or does relative positions change when new guy is added to chart ?

Which non-Asiatic Turks do you mean ? Volga Tartars ? Chuvash ?

Polako
2010-02-03, 08:55
What is your methdology behind these graphs ? Is there some "european average" to which everyone is compared and then placed on to the chart or does relative positions change when new guy is added to chart ?

It's a PCA plot. Samples are placed according to their affinity to various reference samples.

On that plot the North/Cenral Euro cluster is basically positioned on top of deCODEme's Icelanders. The Finnish/Russian cluster is on top of the Vologda Russians from the HGDP (and thus closer to North and East Eurasians than the North/Central Euro cluster is).

But some people are positioned in between the two clusters, like the west Finn and the Belarussian.


Which non-Asiatic Turks do you mean ? Volga Tartars ? Chuvash ?

Anatolian Turks with inflated East Asian affinity and East Asian admix at 23andMe. They cluster with the Adygei, not the Vologda Russians.

Karhunkynsi
2010-02-03, 09:19
It's a PCA plot. Samples are placed according to their affinity to various reference samples.


Reference samples have fixed positions on the chart ? That means Russians and Finns only cluster together due the autochtonous Northeast European (Finnic) component. This doesnt actually show the full diversity of Russians and creates illusion of clustering while there necessarily is similarity only due one component. It looks like the Pontic component is not represented at the PCA.



But some people are positioned in between the two clusters, like the west Finn and the Belarussian.


This is because the reference "dots" have fixed positions, people having genetic ancestry from two "dots" are aligned between the "dots" ? I understand that this is N Europe chart and it should be understand as that , only.



Anatolian Turks with inflated East Asian affinity and East Asian admix at 23andMe. They cluster with the Adygei, not the Vologda Russians.

How about making chart with Anatolian Turks and Ukrainians included ? Throw in few Volga Turks too .. Those samples might be tough to acquire.

Polako
2010-02-03, 09:44
Reference samples have fixed positions on the chart ? That means Russians and Finns only cluster together due the autochtonous Northeast European (Finnic) component. This doesnt actually show the full diversity of Russians and creates illusion of clustering while there necessarily is similarity only due one component. It looks like the Pontic component is not represented at the PCA.

It's a global chart, so these samples cluster together because they have very similar genetic structure in a global context. For example, many Russians and many Finns have basically the same scores against North and East Eurasians, while North/Central Euros always score about 5% less against the same samples.

In terms of intra-European variation there's a lesser overlap between Finns and Russians at deCODEme, with Finns usually being closer to Scandinavians once the global effects are dropped. That's what my earlier graphs were based on.


This is because the reference "dots" have fixed positions, people having genetic ancestry from two "dots" are aligned between the "dots" ? I understand that this is N Europe chart and it should be understand as that , only.

All the other reference samples from around the world have been cut off here, and only the North Euros left.

Also, it's not my plot. All I did was copy/paste the coordinates from the deCODEme website into a graph program.


How about making chart with Anatolian Turks and Ukrainians included ? Throw in few Volga Turks too .. Those samples might be tough to acquire.

I can't, but this global chart includes Turkic populations from western China and Siberia, as well as the usual East Asian references. As far as I can see at the moment, people with Turkic and Turko-Mongol influence cluster as far from the North/Central Euros as most Finns and Russians, but in a somewhat different area, and closer to the Adygei.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-03, 13:54
Basically, if we correct for such things, Finns fit in nicely between Sweden and Northern Russia. Lots of southern and western Finns have Swedish and other Germanic influence, which pulls them towards Scandinavia and Central Europe from a starting point way up north. On the other hand, eastern and northern Finns often have some Saami admix which takes them the opposite way.


So, if Evi would care to read my initial post again she'll realise that Polako summarizes my post...

---------- Post added 2010-02-03 at 13:56 ----------


That is why she is not fully Mongoloid... :p

Finally aeon agrees that Russians are half mongoloid...:confused:

Pallantides
2010-02-03, 14:14
Well there are someone who still think Finns are Mongoloids...
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=37534&postcount=44

Tuohikirje
2010-02-06, 10:47
I guess I would sit "tightly" in the middle as a Sami/Karelian/Ostrobothnia/Satakunda mixture.

I am about to take a test, would you have any company to recommend and how to proceed.

Aino
2010-02-06, 13:04
I guess I would sit "tightly" in the middle as a Sami/Karelian/Ostrobothnia/Satakunda mixture.

I am about to take a test, would you have any company to recommend and how to proceed.

How much Sami admixture do you have? Is one of your grandparents fully Sami? And what do mean by Ostrobothnia? Swedish, Central, Southern or Northern Ostrobothnia?

I think your Sami ancestry might pull you away from other Finns more than just being half Western, half Eastern Finnish. Also, Southern and Central Ostrobothnians cluster with Western Finns, while Northern Ostrobothnians usually cluster with Eastern Finns. Some Northern Ostrobothnians cluster with Western Finns, though. But I assume you did not mean Northern Ostrobothnia.

As for the test, take either the 23andme or the deCODEme test. They are quite similar, but both companies also have some tools that the other company does not have. DeCODEme has awesome PCA plots and a nifty genome browser. 23andme has Relative Finder, which searches the client database for shared chromosome segments between the customers and shows you a list of your distant cousins.

I probably would not be willing to pay the $985 that deCODEme charges for the test, though. Luckily, they had a promotional offer for 23andme customers, and we got to upload our DNA data to deCODEme for free and so get to use their tools. The plots that Polako has been posting are from our deCODEme data.

Anyway, both companies are good.

https://www.23andme.com/store/ (ancestry edition or complete edition)
https://www.decodeme.com/store (complete scan)

If you decide to go for the 23andme test, choose the complete edition if you want access to your raw data. This means you can download all of your SNP values and analyse them independently with other noncommercial or commercial tools.

Viking
2010-02-06, 16:17
Do Finland-Swedes share segments only with other Finns?

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-06, 16:21
Do Finland-Swedes share segments only with other Finns?

Finland-Swedes are genetically indistinguishable from the Mainland-Swedes, so the answer to the question is, hardly. The genetic similarity with Finns are mosttly restricted to the most Western outliers of Finnish sub-groups, Southern-Ostrobotnians (Finnish-speakers) that is.

Besides, the historical "foreign" admixture (German, Russian, Swiss, Polish, Danish and even Italian..etc) in the urban area's of Finland's Swedish-speaking coast was almost exclusively soaked to the Finland-Swedish genepool, especially in relative terms, a fact that contributes even further to my initial answer.

In terms of strict genetics, the Finland-Swedes can perceived as radically dilluted Finns (making sense in terms of geography, an outdated national-state concept), or outpost's of Mainland-Swedes (making sense in terms of ethno-linguistics, a concept matching better to the presence and future). One could conjure even more definitions.

Viking
2010-02-06, 17:17
Finland-Swedes are genetically indistinguishable from the Mainland-Swedes, so the answer to the question is, hardly. The genetic similarity with Finns are mosttly restricted to the most Western outliers of Finnish sub-groups, Southern-Ostrobotnians (Finnish-speakers) that is.

I don't know if some Southern/Central Ostrobothnians are tested at deCODEme, but if so, do they share segments with ethnic Scandinavians, cluster with/close to Icelandics etc? I wouldn't think so, but then again, I might be wrong.


Besides, the historical "foreign" admixture (German, Russian, Swiss, Polish, Danish and even Italian..etc) in the urban area's of Finland's Swedish-speaking coast was almost exclusively soaked to the Finland-Swedish genepool, especially in relative terms, a fact that contributes even further to my initial answer.

Please don't tell me that. :( I'm quite happy with my already known three lineages, and don't need any more ones (unless the fourth would be Danish, then it would be ok).


In terms of strict genetics, the Finland-Swedes can perceived as radically dilluted Finns (making sense in terms of geography, an outdated national-state concept), or outpost's of Mainland-Swedes (making sense in terms of ethno-linguistics, a concept matching better to the presence and future). One could conjure even more definitions.

Look, PTG finally wrote something that I agree with... :evilgrin::thumbsup:

Tuohikirje
2010-02-06, 17:45
How much Sami admixture do you have? Is one of your grandparents fully Sami? And what do mean by Ostrobothnia? Swedish, Central, Southern or Northern Ostrobothnia?

Grandmother is Sami. Southern Ostrobothnia/Satakunda border and Satakunda, to be precise.

Thank you for the information! Very useful.

I will get started. :yes:

Polako
2010-02-07, 00:23
Do Finland-Swedes share segments only with other Finns?

I'm only sharing with one Finland-Swede at 23andMe, and he doesn't talk much, but I'm sure that like the rest of us, he shares segments with everyone from the Bianka Pygmies to Finns. What really matters is who his top sharers are at different settings, and I don't know that.

But despite his Swedish name, he doesn't come out much different from many of the Finns I have on my list, using the comparison tools available at 23andMe. If he said he was a western or southern Finn, I'd believe it.


I don't know if some Southern/Central Ostrobothnians are tested at deCODEme, but if so, do they share segments with ethnic Scandinavians, cluster with/close to Icelandics etc? I wouldn't think so, but then again, I might be wrong.

On the European 1-2-3 plot they're pretty close to Icelanders, usually just to the left of many Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, and very close to me too. But on the global 1-2-3 plot they pull away from the Indo-European speaking North/Central Euros, and usually cluster in between them and the other Finns.

Why don't you get tested already and have a look?

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-07, 11:11
I'm only sharing with one Finland-Swede at 23andMe, and he doesn't talk much, but I'm sure that like the rest of us, he shares segments with everyone from the Bianka Pygmies to Finns. What really matters is who his top sharers are at different settings, and I don't know that.

But despite his Swedish name, he doesn't come out much different from many of the Finns I have on my list, using the comparison tools available at 23andMe. If he said he was a western or southern Finn, I'd believe it.



The Swedish last-name is poor indicator of ethnicity, since about 20-30% of Finns carry a Swedish name without any connection to Swedish ethnicity. Not many Finns had a last name well into the 18th century and were thus given Swedish names (Finland's was a colony of Sweden, in a very anacronistic terms).

First name is much better indicator of ethnicity, finns do not give names such as Gunnar, Olof, Maj-britt, Frida..etc to their children. So, I wouldnt't make any in-dept speculations about "Finland-Swedes who do not speak much".

Polako
2010-02-07, 11:14
The Swedish last-name is poor indicator of ethnicity, since about 20% of Finns carry a Swedish name without any connection to Swedish ethnicity. Not many Finns had a last name well into the 18th century and were thus given Swedish names (Finland's was a colony of Sweden, in a very anacronistic terms).

First name is much better indicator of ethnicity, finns do not give names such as Gunnar, Olof, Maj-britt, Frida..etc to their children. So, I wouldnt't make any in-dept speculations about "Finland-Swedes who do not speak much".

Well, this guy identifies as a Finland-Swede. So it's likely he does have at least some of that ancestry, but it's impossible to say whether he's typical or not.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-07, 11:33
Well, this guy identifies as a Finland-Swede. So it's likely he does have at least some of that ancestry, but it's impossible to say whether he's typical or not.

Ok,

I see. The problem is just that traditionally Finland-Swedes have been and still are to Finland what sociologist would refer as "Whites". That is their position reflects that of Anglos in Zimbabve, Russians in Khanty-Mansi Ogruk or Danish minority in Greenland.

This means that their are loads of Finns, who keep making a big fuss of their non-Finnish (usually Finland-Swedish) ancestry. However, as soon I economics on right track, we will know lot more.

Viking
2010-02-07, 12:27
On the European 1-2-3 plot they're pretty close to Icelanders, usually just to the left of many Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, and very close to me too. But on the global 1-2-3 plot they pull away from the Indo-European speaking North/Central Euros, and usually cluster in between them and the other Finns.

I see. What is the difference between the maps? I guesss the global map is more "specific" and "zoomed" than the European one?


Why don't you get tested already and have a look?

When economics is stable, I guess I will.

Polako
2010-02-07, 12:59
I see. What is the difference between the maps? I guesss the global map is more "specific" and "zoomed" than the European one?

No, the European map runs on European reference samples only, so it basically assumes that the rest of the world doesn't exist. On the other hand, the global map considers references from all over the world, so the intra-European variation is drowned out.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-07, 13:06
No, the European map runs on European reference samples only, so it basically assumes that the rest of the world doesn't exist. On the other hand, the global map considers references from all over the world, so the intra-European variation is drowned out.

It would be extremely convient to get extensive data from the Siberians, this would add much to our understandings of people at the edge of North-East Europe.

Tuohikirje
2010-02-07, 16:16
The Swedish last-name is poor indicator of ethnicity, since about 20-30% of Finns carry a Swedish name without any connection to Swedish ethnicity. Not many Finns had a last name well into the 18th century and were thus given Swedish names (Finland's was a colony of Sweden, in a very anacronistic terms).

First name is much better indicator of ethnicity, finns do not give names such as Gunnar, Olof, Maj-britt, Frida..etc to their children. So, I wouldnt't make any in-dept speculations about "Finland-Swedes who do not speak much".

You are a pathetic liar PTG. How dare you give false information to people.

Every 4th or 5th Finn does not carry a Swedish surname. Could you please prove such a claim.
(If you ment that every 4th or 5th of the Swedish surname carrier Finns do not have what? ancestry, could you prove that too). It is clear that your surname or language does not give away your ancestry.

Finland has never been a colony, intellegent people understand that without a correction.

Finns were ahead of all Europe in last name system (surname). Central-European, Russian or Swedish peasants did not have last names even in the 19th century yet. Ofc nobility had surnames early in Europe (from 8th century on). In Finland (eastern Finland) had last names in use allready in the 13th century. As an example of western Finnish last names I could give my own ancestry. From 1562 on the name Söder- or Norr-Rogel (Christian name meaning 'a spring') were changed to Finnish surnames by the end of the 18th century. My eastern and northern surnames in my family are the same than 500-600 years ago.

The fact that Finnish last names were written "in Swedish" or were not written down at all, is hardly not Finns' fault but the ignorant administrative clerks or priests, who could not write the name or deliberately tried to change it in books. (Adding or changing name to a Swedish one was obligatory in the army or to get a position in administration). Finnish language was discriminated harshly. Despite of all efforts Finnish language (and surnames) are alive and strong today.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-07, 16:27
You are a pathetic liar PTG. How dare you give false information to people.

Finland has never been a colony, intellegent people understand that without a correction.

Finns were ahead of all Europe in last name system (surname). Central-European, Russian or Swedish peasants did not have last names even in the 19th century yet.
In Finland (eastern Finland) had last names in use allready in the 13th century.

The fact that Finnish last names were written "in Swedish" or were not written down at all, is hardly not Finns' fault but the ignorant administrative clerks or priests, who could not write the name or deliberately tried to change it in books. Finnish language was discriminated harshly.

The keyword here was the "(in anacronistic terms)" which ofcourse refers to the fact that ("Finland"/Österland") was not a colony, since a political unit by the name of "Finland" did not even exist, untill the Swedes made it up.

Prior the established Swedish rule, the area's of modern day Finland comprised motley bunch of Uralic tribes in the inland, and Germanics/Scandinavians at the coast and archipelago.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-08, 08:39
PTG, as usual working hard on staying simple and nurturing misconceptions...
Finland-Swedes are genetically indistinguishable from the Mainland-Swedes, so the answer to the question is, hardly. The genetic similarity with Finns are mosttly restricted to the most Western outliers of Finnish sub-groups, Southern-Ostrobotnians (Finnish-speakers) that is.
We've been through this a million times. Repeating a lie does not make it true...Get over it Peter.

Finlandswedes ARE in most cases distinguishable from Swedes but indistinguishable from Finns. Some (a small minority), Finlandswedes cluster with Swedes, some cluster closer to Swedes but the vast majority cluster with Finns (a fact confirmed by several studies Palo, Lappalainen, Hannelius).


Interestingly, the county-level PCA and Geneland placed the Finnish subpopulation of Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnia closest to Sweden. This minority population originates from the 13th century, when Swedish settlers inhabited areas of coastal Finland [34]. Our result is in congruence with earlier studies where intermediate allele frequencies between Finns and Swedes have been observed in the Swedish speaking Finns [35].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2527025/

Besides, the historical "foreign" admixture (German, Russian, Swiss, Polish, Danish and even Italian..etc) in the urban area's of Finland's Swedish-speaking coast was almost exclusively soaked to the Finland-Swedish genepool, especially in relative terms, a fact that contributes even further to my initial answer.
Hold on... Before you eagerly refuted any foreign admix into Finlandswedish genepool and called all Finlandswedes ethnically pure Swedish??
Let's get the facts straight shall we; Any foreign elements in Finland have been soaked into the general Finnish urban population, Finns and Finlandswedes alike. Todays urban Finlandswedes are a mix of Finns, Swedes and foreigners.
The social elite is of overwhelmingly Finnish stock who because of social reasons picked Swedish as their language inthe 19th century. The foreigners that moved to Finland socialized and intermarried with this class.


"Huvudsakligen består den av den ursprungligen finskspråkiga överklassen, som speciellt under den ryska tiden strävade till att urskilja sig från ”vanligt folk”. Men denna utveckling hade i och för sig börjat redan under 1700-talet. Det här märker man tydligt då man studerar hur namnen förändras i ”den svenska eliten”. Ett par exempel torde ge en bra bild; Wegelius < Seinäjokis kaplan, Gummerus < Pihkala, åboländsk storhandlare, vars svärson tog detta släktnamn och ”förbättrade det” genom sin prästtjänst, Alopeus (från grekiskans Alopex + latinets –us) < Kettunen, en prästsläkt från Kainuu. Den andra stora gruppen i den här skaran består av efterkommande till tjänstemän och handelsmän som flyttat från utlandet till Finland, som ”socialiserades” tillsammans med den högsta eliten som blivit svenskspråkig."
http://www.kaapeli.fi/~fbf/ikaros/arkiv/2008-2/IKA208_p8-11.pdf

Or as in the Viipuri/Viborg example below: The natural evolution goes like this, German merchants i.e. who controlled the town trade for centuries spoke German until the Swedification of Finland urban elite took place in the 19th century. They then turned Swedishspeaking. Today Finlands urban elite speaks Finnish so naturally Swedish is loosing ground and people become Finnicized. The use of Swedish language for urban people was not a sign of ethnicity but a sign of social status.

Hallitsevat kielet vaihtuvat Saksa – Ruotsi – Suomi

Saksankieli ja saksankieliset olivat kauan hallinneet Viipurin elinkeinoelämää ja hallintoa. Autonomian ajan alussa pelättiin, että saksankieli kokonaan häviäisi kaupungista. Tästä syystä suhtauduttiin vihamielisesti kaikkiin uudistuksiin. Saksankieli oli vielä 1830-luvulla hallitseva kieli. Uusia saksankielisiä perheitä muutti koko ajan Viipuriin. Kun kymnaasin kieli muuttui v. 1841 saksasta ruotsiksi saksalaiset joutuivat avaamaan oman koulunsa, Behmin koulun. 1812 oli saksalaisten lukumäärä 362 ja 1870 peräti 595. Nämä olivat suurimmalta osaltaan kauppiaita. Saksalaiset ruotsalaistuivat käytännössä kuitenkin ajan myötä, vaikka pysyivät tilastoissa saksankielisinä ja saksalaisen seurakunnan jäseninä. Vielä 1832 oli kaupungin ainoa lehti saksankielinen.

Kaupungin hallinnon ja kulttuurielämän ruotsalaistuminen alkoi toden teolla kymnaasin kielen muuttamisella v. 1841 ja hovioikeuden perustamisella v. 1839. Hallintoelimet olivat jo heti 1812 jälkeen ruotsalaistettu, usein käyttäen muualta Suomesta (ja Ruotsista) muuttaneita henkilöitä, koska alunperin ruotsinkieliset viipurilaiset olivat lähes unohtaneet tämän kielen. 1812 oli ruotsinkielisten lukumäärä 412, mutta 1870 jo 2 243. Ruotsinkieli pysyi hallinnollisena kielenä autonomian ajan loppuun saakka. Suomenkieli nousi kyllä sen rinnalle loppua kohti.
http://www.viipurikeskus.fi/autonomiasali.html


In terms of strict genetics, the Finland-Swedes can perceived as radically dilluted Finns (making sense in terms of geography, an outdated national-state concept), or outpost's of Mainland-Swedes (making sense in terms of ethno-linguistics, a concept matching better to the presence and future). One could conjure even more definitions.
How can they be radically dilluted Finns when they generally cluster with Finns?
Calling them outpost Swedes is an attempt trying to explain why they do not cluster with Swedes depite being "swedes". Nonsense.

---------- Post added 2010-02-08 at 08:57 ----------



First name is much better indicator of ethnicity, finns do not give names such as Gunnar, Olof, Maj-britt, Frida..etc to their children. So, I wouldnt't make any in-dept speculations about "Finland-Swedes who do not speak much".

Total nonsense. My distant Saami ancestors in the 18th century carried the names Britta, Olof and Per. ;)

Walbur, Påwel, Carin and Johan were common names in Savo and Carelia. First name in Finland is a poor indicator of ethnicity. Well, 90% of all born in Finlnad were ethnically "Finns from Finland".

Trivia; guess ethnicity of Johan Jöransson and Caisa Hendriksdotter.

My Swedish ancestors carried names like Anna, Mikkel, Erik, Matthias. I have Finnish ancestors that carried names like Johan, Walter and Irma.
I even have toattly Swedish ancestors who named their children Rauha, Tyyni, Helmi at the turn of the century. How about that?:p

Polako
2010-02-08, 09:28
Grandmother is Sami. Southern Ostrobothnia/Satakunda border and Satakunda, to be precise.

Thank you for the information! Very useful.

I will get started. :yes:

deCODEme is way better IMO, especially if you're interested in personal population genetics. It's also likely they will get a system up like 23andMe's Relative Finder soon, which will flag near and distant genealogical connections between everyone in their database.

Basically, if I was choosing a service like this at the moment, I'd go with deCODEme, even though it's twice the price.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-08, 11:23
PTG, as usual working hard on staying simple and nurturing misconceptions...
We've been through this a million times. Repeating a lie does not make it true...Get over it Peter.

Finlandswedes ARE in most cases distinguishable from Swedes but indistinguishable from Finns. Some (a small minority), Finlandswedes cluster with Swedes, some cluster closer to Swedes but the vast majority cluster with Finns (a fact confirmed by several studies Palo, Lappalainen, Hannelius).





Indeed, this has been explained to you millions of times, and I see it's still all mess to you.

1) Being "closest" equals clustering to that what represent the "closest".
That's why the study you posted also have visual maps, to help idiots to conceive the issue better.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Petergreat/finland-sweden-structure-1.jpg?t=1265627812

2) Finland-Swedes are ofcourse never indistinguishable from Finns, they make highly similar to their adjacent neighbours in Osterbotten, however, the neighbour is a poor reference sample of Finns, since it's an outlier of Finns, in the Western direction. And even then close-similarity is verified when sampling the two ethnicities only together without prorper reference samples from Western Europe nor Siberia.

In fact there's already hige difference between Y-DNA's between Finland-Swedes, and even with those Finns who closest to them (the Western outliers of Finns). (Palo et al. 2008).

What else, if not genetic difference could explain the 10 years difference (staggering difference) in life-expectancy between two ethnicities living next to each other and eating the same food? Any suggestions?

The scholars Hyyppä and Mäki (2000) paid attention to the fact that the life-expectancy rates between Ostrobotnian Finland-Swedes and Ostrobotnian Finns differs with 10 years, among females slightly less. The author's explained the difference with "social capital".

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-08, 12:06
Prior the established Swedish rule, the area's of modern day Finland comprised motley bunch of Uralic tribes in the inland, and Germanics/Scandinavians at the coast and archipelago.

Nonsense. Udmurts or Mordvinins never lived in Finland.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-08, 12:53
Nonsense. Udmurts or Mordvinins never lived in Finland.

Anglo-Saxons never lived in Sweden.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-08, 12:53
Indeed, this has been explained to you millions of times, and I see it's still all mess to you. The study by Hannelius does not givet hte result you wish to see.
Show me one single study which fully assesses that Finlandswedes as a group cluster with Swedish people.
This is your claim and this you must back up with a genetical study. Until then, shut up.


Being "closest" equals clustering to that what represent the "closest".
:lol::lol:Meaning?


Finland-Swedes are ofcourse never indistinguishable from Finns, they make highly similar to their adjacent neighbours in Osterbotten, however, the neighbour is a poor reference sample of Finns, since it's an outlier of Finns, in the Western direction. Western Finns who speak Finnish are just as Finnish as eastern Finns who speak Finnish.

And even then close-similarity is verified when sampling the two ethnicities only together without prorper reference samples from Western Europe nor Siberia. Your' so full of it...
Please enlighten us all: How different is a person whose ancestors turned Finnishspeaking from being Swedish and vice versa? How "Uralic" is a Finnishspeaking Finn who carries "Swedish genes" and how "Germanic" is a Swedishspeaking Finn who carries Finnish genes?
Furthermore, please explain :
Reference examples of what? Y-dna, Mtdna, Autosomal?? WHAT??? :confused:
We have plenty of data from northern and notheastern Europe already which shows us with whom Finns cluster with... Using Siberians as reference population will put Finns closer to Swedes, donkey!


In fact there's already hige difference between Y-DNA's between Finland-Swedes, and even with those Finns who closest to them (the Western outliers of Finns). (Palo et al. 2008).
You don't understand what Palo's study "revealed" so you try a verbal maneuver by making a claim Palo never did. I'll explain:
Palo looked at Y-dna I1a vs. N1c. He did not put "Finlandswedish I1a" vs. a "Finnish I1a" nor did it put "Finlandswedish N1c" vs. "Finnish N1c". Nor did Palo study autosomal data either:
Here is what Palo said when I asked him about the difference:

"Nyt täytyy muistaa, että tämä erilaistuminen riippuu siitä mitä genomin osaa tutkitaan. Valtaosassa perimää (autosomaaliset kromosomit, jotka sisältävät lähes kaikki merkitykselliset geenit) ei eroja näy Suomessa kovinkaan paljoa. Tässä on tutkittu Y-kromosomia, joka kertoo omaa tarinaansa miesten historiasta."
Y-chromosones can only tell us its own story about the men's history. Nothing else.

What else, if not genetic difference could explain the 10 years difference (staggering difference) in life-expectancy between two ethnicities living next to each other and eating the same food? Any suggestion?
"Social capital", dumb ass..

The scholars Hyyppä and Mäki (2000) paid attention to the fact that the life-expectancy rates between Ostrobotnian Finland-Swedes and Ostrobotnian Finns differs with 10 years, among females slightly less. The author's explained the difference with "social capital".
:whoco:

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-08, 12:56
Meaning?

Finland-Swedes cluster with Swedes, and in the study you referred to, the reference group for Finland-Swedes were Swedish Ostrobotnians.

A picture explains more than thousand words
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Petergreat/finland-sweden-structure-1.jpg?t=1265627812

Do you see the green dot? That's the Swedish cluster, the red is Westerb Finnish and black is Eastern Finnish.


Please enlighten us all: How different is a person whose ancestors turned Finnishspeaking from being Swedish and vice versa? How "Uralic" is a Finnishspeaking Finn who carries "Swedish genes" and how "Germanic" is a Swedishspeaking Finn who carries Finnish genes?
Furthermore, please explain :

I will enlighten you......

you are making now a fuss about individual's genetic input, in Finland that individual may even have Somali ancestry, however, in these online-sites we are usually referring to population genetics. When Finns as whole are sampled in terms of deep-ancestry studies, we rarely spot any markers which indicates to Somali ancestry.


We have plenty of data from northern and notheastern Europe already which shows us with whom Finns cluster with... Using Siberians as reference population will put Finns closer to Swedes, donkey!

Donkey will enlighten you again.... as Polako already pointed out, Finns are highly similar to Northern European Indo's in the European-wide plots, however in global-plots they are pushed away, that's the power of introducing multiple reference populations.

Finns and to some extent Inuits obviously cluster with Europeans because they have European ancestry, however when we introduce non-European populations to the studies these border population at the edge of Europe also show affinity with them, that's when their autochnous non-European biological founding genes makes the trick.


The social elite is of overwhelmingly Finnish stock who because of social reasons picked Swedish as their language inthe 19th century. The foreigners that moved to Finland socialized and intermarried with this class.

Priceless:thumbsup::lol::lol:

What next, the Greenlandic elite who speaks Danish are just Inuits who decided to start speak Danish from the scratch.

On the sidenote, I may add that the during the 19th century there's was no need to change language anymore since Finnish gained bigger influence, and the Swedish elite started to play the "let's all be forest Finns" -game in the soirit of the most extreme form of Hegelism.

Iyengar
2010-02-08, 13:02
http://jk666.webng.com/underground/jokela/naturalselector8cc5.png

Viking
2010-02-08, 13:11
http://jk666.webng.com/underground/jokela/naturalselector8cc5.png

What's your point about posting a lunatic with Lappoid influence right in the middle of a debate? :whoco:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=37554&postcount=47

---------- Post added 2010-02-08 at 14:14 ----------


Finns and to some extent Inuits obviously cluster with Europeans because they have European ancestry, however when we introduce non-European populations to the studies these border population at the edge of Europe also show affinity with them, that's when their autochnous non-European biological founding genes makes the trick.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519
http://i33.tinypic.com/2807abo.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/1zgyjp1.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/nvuse8.jpg

Yes, I can truly see how that's the case.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-08, 14:19
Finland-Swedes cluster with Swedes, and in the study you referred to, the reference group for Finland-Swedes were Swedish Ostrobotnians.
In the report, which I quoted it still says cluster "closest to" and not "with"… And it verifies all previous studies showing Finlandswedes being a mix population somewhere between Finns and Swedes, not a pure ethnic group. This is what you have to prove since this is your main case.


you are making now a fuss about individual's genetic input, in Finland that individual may even have Somali ancestry, however, in these online-sites we are usually referring to population genetics. When Finns as whole are sampled in terms of deep-ancestry studies, we rarely spot any markers which indicates to Somali ancestry. Excuse me?


Donkey will enlighten you again.... as Polako already pointed out, Finns are highly similar to Northern European Indo's in the European-wide plots, however in global-plots they are pushed away, that's the power of introducing multiple reference populations.
It's quite the opposite. I have no idea how you made that up?
When using global plots Finns cluster even closer to other North Europeans. When using European plots, Finns are outliers.


Finns and to some extent Inuits obviously cluster with Europeans because they have European ancestry, however when we introduce non-European populations to the studies these border population at the edge of Europe also show affinity with them, that's when their autochnous non-European biological founding genes makes the trick.Inuits have european ancestry? Intresting...
Bulgarians, Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, Hungarians etc all show affinity to non European, or rather border European populations, but yet cluster with neighbouring populations on global plots. You are explaining things irrelevant.


What next, the Greenlandic elite who speaks Danish are just Inuits who decided to start speak Danish from the scratch.Your sentence above is another receipt on how little you understand.

But no, I will not make up weird or twisted illusions as you do. I promise to stick to facts about Finnish history which I'm familiar with.

On the sidenote, I may add that the during the 19th century there's was no need to change language anymore since Finnish gained bigger influence, and the Swedish elite started to play the "let's all be forest Finns" -game in the soirit of the most extreme form of Hegelism.
The Swedishspeaking elite was something much grander than what you'll ever be. They truly saw themselves as real Finns, part of the nation Finland and proud of it, it's heritage and it's people. They wanted no longer to be Swedes as they were indifferent and strangers to Sweden.
And no, they did not want to be forest Finns as forest Finns was a term for a small distinct group of colonialists that settled Swedish and Norwegian lands.

P.S. You have no idea what Hegelianism is. You found Hegelianism in Osmo Jussila's book, which you by the way obviously did not understand. For example:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=923&page=3

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-08, 14:41
It's quite the opposite. I have no idea how you made that up?
When using global plots Finns cluster even closer to other North Europeans. When using European plots, Finns are outliers.





It's not a surprise that you have no idea, you usually don't.

Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog, the only difference is that my dog can't write. That's your only merit.


On the European 1-2-3 plot they're pretty close to Icelanders, usually just to the left of many Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, and very close to me too. But on the global 1-2-3 plot they pull away from the Indo-European speaking North/Central Euros, and usually cluster in between them and the other Finns.


In the report, which I quoted it still says cluster "closest to" and not "with"…

And for the millionth of times "closes" means belonging to that cluster, that's why the study included a picture, allthough since you haven't understood for the millionth of times, you barely understand it now either...so much of your "all"-studies.

Comprehendo, Motor?
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Petergreat/finland-sweden-structure-1.jpg?t=1265627812


Finlandswedes being a mix population somewhere between Finns and Swedes, not a pure ethnic group. This is what you have to prove since this is your main case.

:thumbsup: The only thing here unpure is your head.

The Finland-Swedish nationality is as much of unpure or pure as any other European nationality. Your stuff is imple pure nuts......are you suggesting that Finland-Swedes are "unpure" because they happen share genetic input with the Finns, in the western outlier? Hardly a surprise.

Almost every population is unpure incase you measure it againt to someone else, there's always overlaps to different directions. In overall terms, Finland-Swedes, happen to cluster with Scandinavians, not with Finns, however this fact does not exclude the fact thet still may turn very similar to certain, extreme outliers of Finns (in the west).

Viking
2010-02-08, 19:42
The Finland-Swedish nationality is as much of unpure or pure as any other European nationality. Your stuff is imple pure nuts......are you suggesting that Finland-Swedes are "unpure" because they happen share genetic input with the Finns, in the western outlier? Hardly a surprise.

Almost every population is unpure incase you measure it againt to someone else, there's always overlaps to different directions. In overall terms, Finland-Swedes, happen to cluster with Scandinavians, not with Finns, however this fact does not exclude the fact thet still may turn very similar to certain, extreme outliers of Finns (in the west).

Nobody has said that the Finland-Swedish ethnicity (you are an ethnicity and not a nationality) is "mixed". If it was, then the Swedish Ostrobothnians wouldn't speak their original Eastern Swedish dialects, would they? However, one could argue for the Nyland/Southwestern Finland-Swedish ethnicity to be mixed, as they have Finnish input in their mother tongue, or am I wrong here?

In any case, genetics and ethnicity is not neccessarily the same thing. This obviously seems to be something that you cannot understand. There are probably Finland-Swedes with one Finnish parent who are considered to be Finland-Swedes, as well as there are individuals with the same background who are considered to be Finns. Here in Sweden, there are people with Norwegian and (believe it or not!) Finnish backgrounds who are considered to be ethnic Swedes. Even though these people have mixed or foreign genetic backgrounds, they still most often belong to a certain ethnicity.

It doesn't matter whether the Finland-Swedes have Finnish background or not (it matters to you though, but apparently only when it's Finnish background...). They are still Finland-Swedes. The same could be said for mainland Swedes. There are actually quite a number of them who have Finnish/Baltic/German etc backgrounds, and they don't get any less Swedish from an ethnic view.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-11, 10:37
It's not a surprise that you have no idea, you usually don't.
Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog, the only difference is that my dog can't write. That's your only merit.
As I have pointed out several times; we are not having an argument or a debate. You make false claims and lie. I correct you. Period.


And for the millionth of times "closes" means belonging to that cluster, that's why the study included a picture, allthough since you haven't understood for the millionth of times, you barely understand it now either...so much of your "all"-studies.
If I sit in the middle of two groups, I am closest to both as viewed from each group. Correct or not?


The Finland-Swedish nationality is as much of unpure or pure as any other European nationality. Your stuff is imple pure nuts......are you suggesting that Finland-Swedes are "unpure" because they happen share genetic input with the Finns, in the western outlier? Hardly a surprise.
Whoaaa... Making U-turn from your previous stand? AGAIN???
Who said; Finlandswedes are ethnic Swedes absent of all Finnish genetic imput? You have always said that Finlandswedes practically lack Finno Ugrian genetic input which pulls them away from Swedes PROVE THIS.
Please explain why even the most extreme Finlandswedish population like Larsmo cluster with their Finnishspeaking neighbours and not Swedes proper regarding autosomal str values and why the difference is insignificant?


In overall terms, Finland-Swedes, happen to cluster with Scandinavians, not with Finns,
There is not one single study yet done which have shown that Finlandswedes overall would cluster with Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. This is a plain lie. The study which I quoted and from which your picture is does not say this. If it does quote the exact sentence!


however this fact does not exclude the fact thet still may turn very similar to certain, extreme outliers of Finns (in the west).
You neglect the simple fact that the vast majority of Finns are western Finns
Please explain why the majority of the Finnish population can be an extreme outlier if they constitute the majority?
This should be really intresting stuff...:|

---------- Post added 2010-02-11 at 10:44 ----------


[QUOTE]Nobody has said that the Finland-Swedish ethnicity (you are an ethnicity and not a nationality) is "mixed". If it was, then the Swedish Ostrobothnians wouldn't speak their original Eastern Swedish dialects, would they? However, one could argue for the Nyland/Southwestern Finland-Swedish ethnicity to be mixed, as they have Finnish input in their mother tongue, or am I wrong here? Finlandswedes can primarily be viewed as an ethnogenesis, not ethnical group per se. Gypsies are an ethnical group.

In any case, genetics and ethnicity is not neccessarily the same thing. This obviously seems to be something that you cannot understand. True

There are probably Finland-Swedes with one Finnish parent who are considered to be Finland-Swedes, as well as there are individuals with the same background who are considered to be Finns.
Yes. PTG have repeadetly stated that you are automatically a better person if you speak Swedish but you are a degenerated person if you speak Finnish. I have asked PTG to explain how this can be the case.


It doesn't matter whether the Finland-Swedes have Finnish background or not (it matters to you though, but apparently only when it's Finnish background...). They are still Finland-Swedes. The same could be said for mainland Swedes. There are actually quite a number of them who have Finnish/Baltic/German etc backgrounds, and they don't get any less Swedish from an ethnic view.

Eaxctly. This is what makes PTG a ranting moron...

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-11, 10:47
You make false claims and lie. I correct you. Period.

Sorry buddy, it has always been the other way around.



There is not one single study yet done which have shown that Finlandswedes overall would cluster with Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. This is a plain lie. The study which I quoted and from which your picture is does not say this. If it does quote the exact sentence!


Yawn......

Finland-Swedes as a collective has never been sampled, however Ostrobotnians are.

"Clear East-West duality was observed when when the Finnish individuals were clustering using Geneland. Individuals from the Swedish-speaking part of Ostrobotnia clustered with Sweden when a joint analysis was performed on Swedish and Finnish autosomal genotypes". Population genetic association and Zygosity testing on preamplified Dna. 2008

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Petergreat/finland-sweden-structure-1.jpg?t=1265627812

Do you see the green cross which indicates the cluster 3, apparently not, but everyone else can see it. The study was conducted by geneland software, the software put each regional-subpopulation in a respective cluster based on their autosomal dna, everything else is semantics.


Please explain why even the most extreme Finlandswedish population like Larsmo cluster with their Finnishspeaking neighbours and not Swedes proper regarding autosomal str values and why the difference is insignificant?

:thumbsup::thumbsup: Nice job whackhead, there's not a single reason for us to assume that Larsmo is an "extreme Finland-Swedish population", their population history does not differ from Svenskfinland at all. I also have no idea of studies you referring to since, such studies do not exist other than in your head. Swedish-speakers from Larsmo obviously cluster with Mainland-Swedes, to suggest otherwise would be highly controversial. Their mtdna obviously show more Finnic-lady admixture than say in Småland but overall we no reason to assume that they would not cluster with Mainland-Swedes.

Wojewoda
2010-02-11, 10:53
Swedes (...) Finns

I don't know what this fuss is all about. From this map made by Evon (Norwegian guy) based on deCODEme data and posted on DNA-forums:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5795/big3.png


... it is obvious that both Finns and Swedes are some kind of weird Poles: the first ones more akin to Polako, the later ones more similar to me. Nothing especially interesting here.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-11, 10:59
I don't know what this fuss is all about. From this map made by Evon (Norwegian guy) based on deCODEme data and posted on DNA-forums:




... it is obvious that both Finns and Swedes are some kind of weird Poles: the first ones more akin to Polako, the later ones more similar to me. Nothing especially interesting here.

Even the Irish are genetically more similer to Swedes than Finns are to Swedes. LOL. So much of geography, well.....I guess it's fully natural that Indo-European Celtic speakers are closer to Germanic ethnicties than Uralics are to Germanic ethnicities.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-11, 16:35
... it is obvious that both Finns and Swedes are some kind of weird Poles: the first ones more akin to Polako, the later ones more similar to me. Nothing especially interesting here.

How was Polako placed in terms of Norse/Swedes, Finns and other Poles. Polako can you post a visual chart?

Polako
2010-02-11, 16:49
^ I already did. I'm Pol1 on the Euro and global charts I posted, which are based on all the three dimensions, and not just the two like the one above.

Wojewoda
2010-02-11, 16:56
How was Polako placed in terms of Norse/Swedes, Finns and other Poles. Polako can you post a visual chart?


https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=35161&postcount=115

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=36097&postcount=119

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-11, 17:12
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=35161&postcount=115

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=36097&postcount=119

None of the pictures worked.

Wojewoda
2010-02-11, 17:58
None of the pictures worked.

Saving them at the disk first worked for me.

Snowelf
2010-02-11, 23:43
What has that rant to do with North Russians ? Besides there are christian Tatars, like Snowelf. Anyhow, like I pointed out in other thread Golden Horde only switched to islam 1313. When Golden Horde collapsed myriads of both Mongols and Tartars were employed by the Moscovite state, as soldiers and as bureucrats. They often switched to christianity and became Russians.
So what? :lol: Have you ever seen Volga-Tatar genepool? It's mostly an average European genepool ;)

Kazan Tatars (Tambets 2004) - main Y-haplogroups
R1a - 34%
R1b - 8,7%
N2 -4,8%
N3 - 18,3%
I1a - 0,8%
I1b - 2,4%
J2 - 10,5%
E3b -2,4%
.......
O, C, Q - about 4-5%

What Tatars are you trying to find in Russians? Tatars are so-oooooo different! They are as much close to each other as Tiger Woods is close to Brad Pitt and both of them to Ricky Martin !:whoco:

Look! All of them are Tatars :lol:

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=167
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=163
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=164
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=165
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=166
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=169
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/picture.php?albumid=22&pictureid=168

Karhunkynsi
2010-02-12, 22:24
So what? :lol: Have you ever seen Volga-Tatar genepool? It's mostly an average European genepool ;)


Yes, and Italian genepool is likely about european too.



What Tatars are you trying to find in Russians? Tatars are so-oooooo different! They are as much close to each other as Tiger Woods is close to Brad Pitt and both of them to Ricky Martin !:whoco:


Russians (and Ukrainians) are largely language change Tartars (Turkics). Case proven and fact.

Snowelf
2010-02-14, 12:56
Russians (and Ukrainians) are largely language change Tartars (Turkics). Case proven and fact.
Bullshit! :lol:
Russians and Ukrainian are mostly Slavs plus Finnish and Turkic admixture. Tatars are a very complicated mix , I can compare it only with Americans as I said. Afro-Americans, White Americans , Latin Americans differ but they all are Americans. So Tatars are a complicated mix of Volga-Bulgars, Sarmatians, Fenno-Ugrians, Slavs and Hunnu. Besides not every Tatar consists of ALL these admixtures :D One Tatar consists only of Bulgarian and Slavic components, another Tatar consists of Bulgarian, Fenno-Ugric and Hunnu components.
So if some Russians have any Tatar admixture you have to realize that it could be Tatar of Fenno-Slavic origin or on the opposite of Bulgarian-Hunnu origin.
If one person says you his dad is an American what do you think? His dad is black or white? Or maybe mulatto or latin? :lol: You try to make things much simplier than they are mate :whoco:
Look at this model of Tatar origin - Artur Hamidullin! Would you distinguish him from Finns in the crowd?

http://s56.radikal.ru/i154/1002/66/5da250d5bc10.jpg

But he's also Tatar. Can this guy spoil any Slavic or Fennic anthrotype?:lol: He is a good example to illustrate my thought of great diversity of Tatar people.

drgs
2010-02-14, 13:59
http://i.imgur.com/Akq2G.jpg

Polako
2010-02-14, 14:56
Man that Swedish chick has some great knockers. Cartoon or not.

Pallantides
2010-02-14, 14:59
That cartoon don't make any sense, the Finns are blonder and more light eyed than Icelandics...
the "Norwegian" looks Danish.

Breedingvariety
2010-02-14, 15:04
That cartoon don't make any sense, the Finns are blonder and more light eyed than Icelandics...
the "Norwegian" looks Danish.
It doesn't make any sense, period.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-15, 12:08
Even the Irish are genetically more similer to Swedes than Finns are to Swedes. LOL.

Source please?
Until then, try understanding this chart:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H6XW_a4TYus/Sd1rFupZgyI/AAAAAAAAAk4/aZFpbeQTNys/s400/genetic+map+of+northern+Europe.bmp


So much of geography, well.....I guess it's fully natural that Indo-European Celtic speakers are closer to Germanic ethnicties than Uralics are to Germanic ethnicities
You have to stop confusing Mari and Mordvinians into the topic...

---------- Post added 2010-02-15 at 12:51 ----------


Sorry buddy, it has always been the other way around.
If you accuse me of lying, you have to provide evidence of this. Please start producing evidence. Remember how many times I asked you to show me where I'm wrong? It is exactly as many times as you have not answeredmthis simple question.


Finland-Swedes as a collective has never been sampled,
Exactly, dickhead. And this is my position; you have no proof for your idiotic statement that Finlandswedes in general would cluster with Swedes.


however Ostrobotnians are. And a few Ostrobothnians cluster with Swedes, some in between Swedes and Finns but most of them overlap with Finnishspeaking Ostrobothnians and southwestern Finns, where the Swedish contribution according to Palo 2009 in neglible.
And this is what Hannelius says in his study:

"Interestingly, the county-level PCA and Geneland placed the Finnish subpopulation of Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnia closest to Sweden. This minority population originates from the 13th century, when Swedish settlers inhabited areas of coastal Finland . Our result is in congruence with earlier studies where intermediate allele frequencies between Finns and Swedes have been observed in the Swedish speaking Finns"


Do you see the green cross which indicates the cluster 3, apparently not, but everyone else can see it.
Yes, I can see it. It really is green... It shows that some individuals would cluster closer to Sweden. Which is fairly reasonable considering that they must have partly Swedish roots. I have no problemo with that. I have a problemo with your inaccurate off reality conclusions.


The study was conducted by geneland software, the software put each regional-subpopulation in a respective cluster based on their autosomal dna, everything else is semantics.

Ok. Do you have any idea what this means?:

Clusters of individuals were inferred with the software Geneland http://folk.uio.no/gillesg/Geneland.html[27-29]. This software implements an algorithm attempting to cluster samples on the basis of both genetic and geographic information. The geographic information is accounted for at the Bayesian prior level in such a way that clusters corresponding to spatially organized groups are considered more likely than those corresponding to completely random spatial patterns. The benefit of using a spatial prior (presumably more informative than a non-spatial prior) is to get more accurate inferences and to explicitly infer the spatial borders between inferred clusters.


Nice job whackhead, there's not a single reason for us to assume that Larsmo is an "extreme Finland-Swedish population", their population history does not differ from Svenskfinland at all. We have many reasons to assume just that:

"Satunnaisajautumisen perusteella vastaisin että Larsmo on ollut aika eristynyt. Se ei varmaankaan ole mikään optimaalinen suomenruotsalaisen väestön mittari, mutta uskoisin, että se kuvastaa joskus maahan tullutta siirtolaisväestöä, joka sitten levittäytyy rannikolle ja osin sekoittuu ”alkuperäisiin”. Tosin tuossakin totuus voi olla aika monimutkainen."
That is a personal answer from Jukka Palo who conducted the study, he believed the Larsmo population was fairly isolated and also affected by drift, huh! He also said, what I believed to be the case, that Larsmo reflect what have happened in the history of coastal populations; a male dominated medieval exodus from Sweden to Finlands coast and great intermarriage with local population.


I also have no idea of studies you referring to since, such studies do not exist other than in your head.
The study is posted here on the forum... A hint, try searching i threads where genetic drift and bottlenecks is the issue...


Swedish-speakers from Larsmo obviously cluster with Mainland-Swedes, to suggest otherwise would be highly controversial. Their mtdna obviously show more Finnic-lady admixture than say in Småland but overall we no reason to assume that they would not cluster with Mainland-Swedes.
Thank you. A wonderful example of how you twist reality to fit you political mindframe. "We" is as usual you and the message is "I refuse to believe it":)

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-15, 15:49
Motorhead, :D

hit me back when you are acquainted with sample statistics. Here's my sample statistics to dummies:

1) With a sample we are trying to conjure or rather infer data of a population. A whole population cannot be measured that's why we stick to the samples. In population genetics, we are interested to obtain genetic information of a population. The individual's themselves are that much of an interest, they obviously show certain deviation from the mean, that's what we call disturbance, but in the end expected value of these disturbances makes up the mean. Not really a rocket science. However as as such we are not interested of the deviations or the "individuals". We are interested in the mean.

When Hannelius writes about "individuals" he obviously means the population of Swedish Ostrobotnians, since no other individuals of part of that population is mentioned.

Now, here's come pure facts. Your little childish twisting won't help much.

Dadaa.....

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Petergreat/finland-sweden-structure-1.jpg?t=1265627812

Since Finland-Swedes as whole have not been sampled, the Swedish Ostrobotnians shall make up the reference population for all Finland-Swedes.

Polako
2010-02-15, 22:35
Ok, I've got a confirmed Finland Swede (FI/SE).

(right click and save as)

intra-European 1-2-3 (http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7721/euro123.jpg)

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-16, 13:46
Ok, I've got a confirmed Finland Swede (FI/SE).

(right click and save as)

intra-European 1-2-3 (http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7721/euro123.jpg)

There are atleast two "FI/SE", one at the very, very opposite end from where the bulk of the Finns are, at the company of Danes, Norse and Icelanders (South-East), and then there's the one with close to the very Finnish western outliers at North-East. Or are the North and South two different charts showing the same individuals? Explain Polako, please.

Viking
2010-02-16, 13:58
He/she is positioned at exactly where he/she should be, where there closest Ethnic-Finns are miles away from. :lol:

Can't you see that he or she is rather in the Northeastern cluster, and that the closest individuals to him or her are F13, F12, F11 and US16?

Polako
2010-02-16, 14:52
There are atleast two "FI/SE", one at the very, very opposite end from where the bulk of the Finns are, at the company of Danes, Norse and Icelanders (South-East), and then there's the one with close to the very Finnish western outliers at North-East. Or are the North and South two different charts showing the same individuals? Explain Polako, please.

The bottom chart is the same as the top one, it's just turned 180 degrees to the right. It's also the same as the other Euro charts I posted; the marker lines there correspond to the left to right distance of the second chart here.

I should say though that I did change the codes. FI/SE is just above Aino, who is FI3 on this chart (the confirmed West Finn is now FI6), but FI/SE is further forward than her. In any case, he's pretty close to many southern and western Finns, as well as to many Scandinavians, when all three dimensions are taken into account.

This area of the plot is the mixed Baltic zone. Since we're concentrating on only intra-European variation, there's no point looking for Uralic influence, because that's what the global plots are for. The people on these charts in this zone are usually Northern and/or Western Euro and Baltic mixes (the Balto-Finns have a significant Baltic component, which is what basically shows in most of them on these intra-European charts). So you have individuals like IE/FI, NO/SE/FI, and FI/SE hanging around here. Eastern Swedes like SE1 aren't too far away either. I'd also expect Gotland Swedes to cluster in this area, probably just to the right of myself and FI/SE.

Indeed, I just read an interesting article about medieval contacts between the west and east coasts of the Baltic. It's an oldie but a goodie.

Transferrin Variants as Markers of Migrations and Admixture between Populations in the Baltic Sea Region (http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=hhe48185)

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-16, 18:52
I cannot make much of the FI/SE,


:confused:

EDIT

I, ok Think I start to understand, the Finland-Swede was the one Aino was talking previously, the one with one Finland-Swede parent and the other Finnish. The half Ostrobotnian Swede, half Ostrobotnian Finn?

Looks like Aino makes pretty much the Western outlier of Finns. Way more "Western" than most of them.

Aino
2010-02-16, 19:13
I, ok Think I start to understand, the Finland-Swede was the one Aino was talking previously, the one with one Finland-Swede parent and the other Finnish. The half Ostrobotnian Swede, half Ostrobotnian Finn?

No, the one I mentioned earlier is labelled FI/SE/RU on the plot. His Finnish ancestors are from Ostrobothnia and Finland-Swedish ancestors from the south coast, if I recall correctly. He also has some minor Russian ancestry.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-17, 09:35
^

Ok, where is the "FI/SE" guy/lady from, any deeper info of his/her biological ancestry?

anyway, I have a hard time believing you'd be postioned that west if we have a global chart, you'd fly back to Khantyland in a seconds, or?

I remember one genetic study from 60's which discovered that Finns share same genetic markers with the Chinese, and these markers were not shared by Europeans.

@Polak,

If I give you genetic data could you position it in the map as well? Do I have to use 23andme or Decome?

Polako
2010-02-17, 09:50
^Ok, where is the "FI/SE" guy/lady from, any deeper info of his/her biological ancestry?

Generally speaking, he clusters between Scandinavians and Finns on the global plots, but sometimes closer to the former. He seems like a Swede with some Finnish ancestry as far as I can see.


@Polak,

If I give you genetic data could you position it in the map as well? Do I have to use 23andme or Decome?

For the time being I need the person in question to be at deCODEme, and for them to add me as a friend. Basically, what you're seeing there are just screen caps of their PCA plots.

But I've today started working on my own PCA and admixture analysis, so once that's done, you can send me your raw data (must be the high density stuff with at least 500,000 markers), and I'll process it for you.

Also, eventually I hope to create composite genomes from the data files that I get sent it, to make average people from most areas of Europe, so I can then run raw data sets against these to locate ethno-specific IBD and IBS segments.

Aino
2010-02-17, 12:21
^
anyway, I have a hard time believing you'd be postioned that west if we have a global chart, you'd fly back to Khantyland in a seconds, or?

Globally, I am in the European cluster close to other Finns, Russians, and the Adygei. The Khanty would be positioned somewhere between East Asia and Europe. Polako posted a global plot somewhere in this thread earlier.

Out of the 50 reference populations in the deCODEme database, I am genetically most similar to Russians, Icelanders, Orcadians, and the French. Here is the complete list:

1 Russian 84,37
2 Icelander 84,27
3 Orcadian 84,03
4 French 84
5 Italian 83,68
6 Basque 83,6
7 Tuscan 83,55
8 Adygei 83,12
9 Sardinian 82,89
10 Pathan 82,11
11 Druze 82,03
12 Burusho 81,95
13 Palestinian 81,75
14 Uygur 81,7
15 Brahui 81,47
16 Sindhi 81,33
17 Balochi 81,28
18 Hazara 81,21
19 Kalash 81,17
20 Makrani 80,78
21 Bedouin 80,3
22 Mozabite 79,79
23 Yakut 78,55
24 Tu 78,18
25 Xibo 78
26 Mongola 77,98
27 Oroqen 77,92
28 Daur 77,67
29 Hezhen 77,62
30 Han-Nchina 77,52
31 Cambodian 77,41
32 Maya 77,17
33 Naxi 77,16
34 Tujia 77,08
35 Han 77,04
36 Miao 77,01
37 Japanese 76,99
38 Yi 76,96
39 She 76,64
40 Dai 76,62
41 Lahu 76,33
42 Pima 74,87
43 Colombian 74,61
44 Karitiana 73,93
45 Melanesian 73,12
46 Surui 72,44
47 Papuan 70,79
48 Bantu Kenya 64,24
49 Mandenka 63,51
50 Yoruba 63,01
51 Bantu South Africa 62,4
52 Biaka Pygmy 59,21
53 Mbuti Pygmy 56,72
54 San 54,92


I remember one genetic study from 60's which discovered that Finns share same genetic markers with the Chinese, and these markers were not shared by Europeans.



Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-17, 14:51
Motorhead, :D

hit me back when you are acquainted with sample statistics. Here's my sample statistics to dummies:

1) With a sample we are trying to conjure or rather infer data of a population. A whole population cannot be measured that's why we stick to the samples. In population genetics, we are interested to obtain genetic information of a population. The individual's themselves are that much of an interest, they obviously show certain deviation from the mean, that's what we call disturbance, but in the end expected value of these disturbances makes up the mean. Not really a rocket science. However as as such we are not interested of the deviations or the "individuals". We are interested in the mean.

When Hannelius writes about "individuals" he obviously means the population of Swedish Ostrobotnians, since no other individuals of part of that population is mentioned.

Now, here's come pure facts. Your little childish twisting won't help much.

Ok, here's some more "childish twisting" from me.

Since you attempted to answer my question with a smoke screen of no meaning to cover your ignorance regarding your understanding of the sentence:

Clusters of individuals were inferred with the software Geneland. This software implements an algorithm attempting to cluster samples on the basis of both genetic and geographic information. The geographic information is accounted for at the Bayesian prior level in such a way that clusters corresponding to spatially organized groups are considered more likely than those corresponding to completely random spatial patterns. The benefit of using a spatial prior (presumably more informative than a non-spatial prior) is to get more accurate inferences and to explicitly infer the spatial borders between inferred clusters.) I will answer it by quoting Ulf Hannelius, the author of the study:
"The reason why Finlandswedes cluster with Swedes in this study is only because how reference populations are chosen. If Sweden would not have been chosen into this study, the Ostrobothnians would have clustered with western Finland. In reality, each individual belongs to every population but with different probability. To visualize the the results in an easy way we've chosen the positioning which is most important, in this case Sweden. If another Swedish referencepopulation would have been chosen, Ostrobothnians would possibly have clustered with western Finland."

"The Swedish referencepopulation represents Sweden as a whole, where in contrast to Finland there is no substructure. The analysis where Ostrobothnians cluster with Swedes is based on both genetical and geographical distance and since Ostrobothnia is close to Sweden, the result is driven by this. The question is, would Ostrobothnians cluster with Sweden if we'd place them in eastern Finland? We are making the preassumption that geographically close individuals/populations are genetical closer than geographically distant populations"

Furthermore:
"What one must realise with these population genestudies is that the differencies, althought statistically significant, are extremely small"
and
"These analyses are made at a population level and it must be understood that the genetical difference between two individual is far greater, despite background, than between two populations."
(He said this a warning against discussions he'd seen on Naziboards to prove genetical difference between races and not serious debates about Finlandswedishness based on his study!!)
"It must be pointed out that we used very few genetical markers in this test"
Then Ulf directed me to the often quoted study "Genome-wide analysis..." (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003519) by E. Salmela where they used a lot more markers.
"Again, depending on how the analysis is done, Finlandswedes position either with Sweden or Finland."

From the study about Finlandswedes:

"The information about the grandparental birthplaces of the Finnish samples enabled a more detailed analysis of population structure within Finland. In the multidimensional scaling plot of IBS within Finland (Fig. 2c,d, Fig. S1b), the first dimension showed the division to Eastern and Western Finland; the Häme samples settled between the clusters. The second dimension showed a north-south gradient within Eastern and the third dimension within Western Finland. Here the Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians showed no separation from their Finnish-speaking neighbours, whereas in the MDS plot of the European populations, the Finnish samples closest to the Swedes were almost exclusively Swedish-speakers (data not shown), and in the Structure analysis the Swedish-speaking Finns showed twice as large an admixture with the Sweden-dominated cluster as the other Western Finnish samples did (48.9% versus 24.6%, data not shown). In the analysis of isolation by distance (Fig. S5), the correlation of genetic and geographic distances between pairs of Finnish individuals was 0.31 (p<10−6)."


"The increased Swedish contribution among the Swedish-speaking Finns agrees with earlier findings [27], [40], as well as with their medieval Swedish origin [14]. Interestingly, in the MDS plots the Finnish-Swedes stood out from the rest of Western Finland only when Sweden was included in the analysis, which highlights the importance of relevant reference populations also when detecting patterns of variation within a country."

As anyone can see, there is a measurable Swedish contribution in Finlandswedes but it does not make them anything else than Finnish people with considerable Swedish contribution.

To really top it off, Ulf verified what have been my position from day one when arguing with you, Peter:
"Regarding the analyses we've made it seems that Finlandswedes (at least the ones from Ostrobothnia) are as you said, a mixed people."


Since Finland-Swedes as whole have not been sampled, the Swedish Ostrobotnians shall make up the reference population for all Finland-Swedes;) Totally fine by me. Remember which one of you and me actually is of Finlandswedish Ostrobothnian descent?

---------- Post added 2010-02-17 at 14:57 ----------




I remember one genetic study from 60's which discovered that Finns share same genetic markers with the Chinese, and these markers were not shared by Europeans.


If I remember correctly, you were priding yourself for using the most recent data available?

Evi
2010-02-17, 15:06
1 Russian 84,37
Interesting result. My result seems to be higher, which is 84,56. I wonder why?

Polako
2010-02-18, 01:40
Interesting result. My result seems to be higher, which is 84,56. I wonder why?

I think Aino would have massive scores with Finns, Estonians and maybe northern Swedes and Gotlanders. The Vologda Russians are her closest match here due to a lack of the above. The only reason she clusters with them on the global map is because of a similar mix of global components, but she's fairly removed from them on most European PCAs. I think the Vologda Russians are a mix of Balts, Balto-Finns, Slavs and Uralics, so it's not surprising a Latvian/Khanty mix does well with them in a pairwise comparison. You're almost as high as me (84.60%).

Aino
2010-02-18, 10:25
My dad has a higher Russian score than me and my mom, 84.62%. Maybe he has more Baltic (and perhaps also Slavic?) ancestry than my mom. He also has higher scores with all of the northern and western European groups.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-19, 08:51
"The reason why Finlandswedes cluster with Swedes in this study is only because how reference populations are chosen. If Sweden would not have been chosen into this study, the Ostrobothnians would have clustered with western Finland. In reality, each individual belongs to every population but with different probability. To visualize the the results in an easy way we've chosen the positioning which is most important, in this case Sweden. If another Swedish referencepopulation would have been chosen, Ostrobothnians would possibly have clustered with western Finland."

Exactly, the importance of a proper reference population cannot be over-emphasized. If we sample, say Italians and Finns, or (Swedes and Finns) and contrast them to Africans, we obviously find Italians and Finns highly alike. In fact this similarity would be probably quite on the same levels with Khanties and Italians if the two were contrasted to Sub-Saharan Africans.

If Western-Finns and Finland-Swedes are sampled alone with no one to compare (Eastern Finns or Mainland-Swedes), what else can we expect than high similarity, the slight differences that still might occur would be only due to to differences in ancient biological founding population. (Comparative population genetics) is all about references and comparisons.


As anyone can see, there is a measurable Swedish contribution in Finlandswedes but it does not make them anything else than Finnish people with considerable Swedish contribution.

:thumbsup:

Utter BS. As everyone knows, the biological founding population of Finland-Swedes are Indo-European Germanics, that's the language the group is still speaking, hence our analysis will by default start from the assumption that Finland-Swedes are Swedish/Scandinavian people.

Viking
2010-02-19, 12:21
Can't you just say that Swedish Ostrobothnians are ethnic Swedes with some Baltic/Estonian ancestry? If I remember correctly, Western Finns are a result of South Scandinavian and Estonian migration to Finland. So wouldn't that technically make the Swedish Ostrobothnians mostly North Germanic with some Estonian touch?

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-20, 08:59
Can't you just say that Swedish Ostrobothnians are ethnic Swedes with some Baltic/Estonian ancestry? If I remember correctly, Western Finns are a result of South Scandinavian and Estonian migration to Finland. So wouldn't that technically make the Swedish Ostrobothnians mostly North Germanic with some Estonian touch?

Well,

as you can see from the commercial dna-data the genetic concept of "western Finn" is very narrow. In the chart Polako posted, we have 3 individuals out of 15 who could be characterized as "Western Finns", the dualism east vs. west, obviously holds in theory but you have to remember that most Finns reside in the big Southern Finnish towns in the coast and these towns such as greater Helsingfors-region with it's 1 million inhabitants is just coctail of all Ugrics, with the Eastern Finnishness most likely dominating.

Finland-Swedes have have a genetic overlap with the most extreme edge of Finns in the "West", however they differ even from them, mostly due to fundamentally different biological founding population.

@Polako,

I wouldn't make too big of a fuss of Gotlanders genetic postion until we have verified data, I am also very skeptical over the idea that Northern Swedes would be particularly close to Finns in terms of genetics.

Sometimes 2-dimensionsed pictures from google can be very powerfull to illustrate a point.

Northern Swede, from the Sami area's of Sweden, Björn Ferry
2010 Vancouver Olympic Gold Metallist.

http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multimedia/archive/00278/ferry_278024w.jpg

http://www.biathlonfreunde.de/assets/images/Ferry.jpg

Southern Finn Peetu Piironen (Vancouver 2010 Silver metallist)
http://kuvat2.iltasanomat.fi/iltasanomat/iDoc/1512562-G4OUN2QU.jpg

Karhunkynsi
2010-02-20, 09:19
Pete, as an extraordinary professional of all things Finnish I want to ask you this question.

Is Anja genetically more related to Peetu or Björn ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Anja_P%C3%A4rson_Semmering_2008.jpg

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-22, 12:28
Exactly, the importance of a proper reference population cannot be over-emphasized. If we sample, say Italians and Finns, or (Swedes and Finns) and contrast them to Africans, we obviously find Italians and Finns highly alike. In fact this similarity would be probably quite on the same levels with Khanties and Italians if the two were contrasted to Sub-Saharan Africans.
The Khanty/Italian and Sub Saharan comparison is nonsense. Italians have so much Sub Saharan contribution that they'd cluster with the Sub Saharans, LOL….


If Western-Finns and Finland-Swedes are sampled alone with no one to compare (Eastern Finns or Mainland-Swedes), what else can we expect than high similarity, the slight differences that still might occur would be only due to to differences in ancient biological founding population. (Comparative population genetics) is all about references and comparisons.
Wonderful. You understood merely half this time… Tell me, what exactly is the biological founding population for Finns you always speak of?

As everyone knows, the biological founding population of Finland-Swedes are Indo-European Germanics, that's the language the group is still speaking, hence our analysis will by default start from the assumption that Finland-Swedes are Swedish/Scandinavian people.
Bravo, PTG. You mix linguistic terms with genes. Care to explain why Finns genetically also are "Indo Europeans"?? The measurable Swedish contribution in Ostrobothnians is less than 50%! That seems to me that Swedes were one part of the founding population. Would you like to take a shot at what constitues the other half? Forest Uralic Sibirids, of course. The North Asian Eskimo contribution is more than 50% of the super duper Ostrobothnian Finlandswedish.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-22, 13:32
Can't you just say that Swedish Ostrobothnians are ethnic Swedes with some Baltic/Estonian ancestry? If I remember correctly, Western Finns are a result of South Scandinavian and Estonian migration to Finland. So wouldn't that technically make the Swedish Ostrobothnians mostly North Germanic with some Estonian touch?
Cause they are not...There is virtually no Baltic contribution in the Ostrobothnian samples so the reasoning is not right. Finns are basically north Germanics genetically because they are carrying the same genes as their neighbours do.
According to Palos 2009 study, there is substansial geneflow from Scandinavia into, mainly western and northern Finland.

In contrast to the findings of Lappalainen et al, which in the Y-chromosomal data suggest a clear separation between the Finnish and Swedish gene pools, the admixture analyses suggest substantial Scandinavian contribution that is gene flow into the western and northern parts of the country from the west. In the Y-chromosomal data, the Scandinavian influence was the highest in the coastal sample of Larsmo (LMO) and substantial in most Early settlement area
sub-populations as well as in the Lapland (LA; Figure 5). Notably, the Scandinavian gene flow explains the proximity of the northern LA sub-population to the southern and western Finnish sub-populations TU, UU, VA and HA. Unlike the southern parts of Finland, Lapland is not separated from Scandinavia by the Baltic Sea. The regional differences in the Y-chromosomal diversity in Sweden are also small, and gene flow from Sweden could thus homogenize the Y-chromosomal diversity between southwestern and northern Finland. The large Y-STR differences between the western and eastern parts of Finland are thus plausibly explained by regionally restricted gene flow, extending to the south-western and northern Finland. The Late settlement area in turn, would seem to retain more of the Fenno-Ugric genetic composition originating from the regions east of Finland. This is reflected in the haplogroup distribution: the Scandinavian haplogroup I occurs with frequencies 40% only in western Finland. Haplogroup N3, typical for Fenno-Ugric populations of north-eastern Europe is observed in all parts of Finland but reaches high frequencies (79%) only in eastern Finland.

But intrestingly the Swedish contribution in southwestern Finns (Finns proper, where the bulk of the Finnish population is sprung from) was neglible while the Baltic contribution was 30%.


The TU subpopulation does show only negligible Swedish contribution, but the analysis with 7-locus haplotype data and three parental populations suggests c. 30% contribution from the Latvia-Lithuania metasample into this region. In all other sub-populations, the Baltic contribution was low (c. 4% in UU) or came up as negative

Autosomally however, the difference between western and eastern Finland is low:


No significant structure was detected in the small 9-locus autosomal STR data within Finland, which at first appeared to be in contrast with the recent results from genome-wide SNP data.7 However, even with 250 000 SNP markers, the differentiation between eastern and western Finland remains low in absolute terms (FST¼0.0032)7 and not drastically different than the estimates obtained here with a small set of autosomal markers.

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-23, 10:02
Wonderful. You understood merely half this time… Tell me, what exactly is the biological founding population for Finns you always speak of?



The founding population is the population of without the given nationality would not exist. Finnishness is the Finnish language, without the Finnish language, there's nothing which would construct the Finnish nation. The core population that introduced the Uralic language to North-East Europe is the founding population for Finns, without this initial population there would be no Finns.

Inuit would not exist if there would be only Danish influence, there must be the core-Inuit-speaking population which absords the "influence". Influence alone does not bear a nation. The difference between Inuits and Finns are the fact that Finns have more of the "influence" from Europe. Finns have this influence quite much actually, but their founding population was another story.

Finnish-speaking South-Ostrobotnians are an interesting sub-population judged by their y-chromosomes and overall genetic position they seem to be largely "asianized" Scandinavians, lacking many of the genetic marker's which characterize other Finns, and which arguably are the gifts of Finnish founding population from the Urals.


Finns are basically north Germanics genetically because they are carrying the same genes as their neighbours do.

According to this reasoning the Inuits and Japanese are also Northern Germanic because they carry the exact same genes, howeever an astute pupil of population genetics would now revolt and maintain that the it's not the difference in genes as such which adds to the genetic diversity, it's the the way that these similar genes have been mutated.

Northern Germanic and Finnish males both carry Y-chromosome but Northern Europeans do not a mutated version of it which refer as N1c at the rate of 60-70%.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-23, 12:29
Helsingfors-region with it's 1 million inhabitants is just coctail of all Ugrics, Are you talking about Hungarians??


Finland-Swedes have have a genetic overlap with the most extreme edge of Finns in the "West", however they differ even from them, mostly due to fundamentally different biological founding population.
Please explain how the majority of Finns can be an extreme edge of Finns?


I wouldn't make too big of a fuss of Gotlanders genetic postion until we have verified data, I am also very skeptical over the idea that Northern Swedes would be particularly close to Finns in terms of genetics.
Your scpeticism is never based on knowledge. Of all Swedes, northern Swedes are closest to Finns. According to genetic charts...

Sometimes 2-dimensionsed pictures from google can be very powerfull to illustrate a point. Handpicked pictures are inded a great way to prove any point:
Random Finnish athlete.
http://www.onfrozenblog.com/files/2007/05/lepistocropped.jpg
Random Swede
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VlODHGXMMBCBkM:http://ai.isi.edu/images/div3/photos/ulf.jpg

IDIOT

---------- Post added 2010-02-23 at 13:08 ----------


The founding population is the population of without the given nationality would not exist. Finnishness is the Finnish language, without the Finnish language, there's nothing which would construct the Finnish nation. The core population that introduced the Uralic language to North-East Europe is the founding population for Finns, without this initial population there would be no Finns.
Ahaa..? The primitive nomads from the Eurasian steppe who first introduced Indo European languages to Sweden thousands of years ago was of course the core founding population of all Swedes! All according to your logic. Fine. It's only a shame that they do not exist anymore…


Inuit would not exist if there would be only Danish influence, there must be the core-Inuit-speaking population which absords the "influence". Influence alone does not bear a nation. The difference between Inuits and Finns are the fact that Finns have more of the "influence" from Europe. Finns have this influence quite much actually, but their founding population was another story.
Your obsession about Inuits should be dealt with on pages dedicated to Inuits, not here... You seem to know an awful lot about this founding population. Can you please enlighten me when and from where this band of founding forefathers and foremothers came from? Call all researchers then and tell them you unraveled something no one else seems to be certain of.

Finnish-speaking South-Ostrobotnians are an interesting sub-population judged by their y-chromosomes and overall genetic position they seem to be largely "asianized" Scandinavians, lacking many of the genetic marker's which characterize other Finns, and which arguably are the gifts of Finnish founding population from the Urals.
You have to stop writing riddles...Please explain to me, how do their "Y chromosones and genetic position" differ from the rest? What are the genetic markers all other Finns carry? Please, explain what is the gift from the Urals which makes the Ostrobothnian Finns more "asianized" than let's say Finlandswedes who according to geneticists evidently do not differ from Finnishspeaking Ostrobothnians? :evilgrin:


According to this reasoning the Inuits and Japanese are also Northern Germanic because they carry the exact same genes, howeever an astute pupil of population genetics would now revolt and maintain that the it's not the difference in genes as such which adds to the genetic diversity, it's the the way that these similar genes have been mutated.
Wow! This is sensational! Please tell me more about the Y-DNA and MtDNA chromosones shared by Inuits/ Japanese and north Germanics? Call then all geneticists and tell them about your miraculous findings!:whoco: Anyway, anyone understands that Y-DNA and MtDNA chromosones are being discussed not genes. After all you, Mao Tse Dong and Nelson Mandela share 99,99% exactly identical genes...


Northern Germanic and Finnish males both carry Y-chromosome but Northern Europeans do not a mutated version of it which refer as N1c at the rate of 60-70%.
Thank you!!!!
Now you brought this thread back to it's actual topic: Why are Finns outliers? If you would be smart enough to go back to the very first post of this thread, you'll actually learn more about the effects that genetic drift, bottlenecks and rapid population growth have on inflated rates of certain haplotypes.

(why are we going in circles, Peter? How is you studies going? Having difficulties?)

PeterThaGreat
2010-02-24, 07:57
Please explain how the majority of Finns can be an extreme edge of Finns?



Handpicked pictures are inded a great way to prove any point:
Random Finnish athlete.




(why are we going in circles, Peter? How is you studies going? Having difficulties?)


The majority of Finns are nowhere near at the close of the edge, any data from commercial dna-bank will confirm you this, as does the chart supplied by Polako, with a sample of 15 Finns.

Do you call the a Swedish cold metallist and the only Finnish metallist from Vancouver as handpicked?

Your thread is nice, although you give too much weight for the bottlenecks and drifts, the most important reason for the messed Finnish genetics compared to that of Europeans is the fundementally different founding populations. We do not have single European Indo-European population whose genetic data would act similar way than does the Finnish, hence I am skeptical of the drift and bottlenecks, alone explaining the genetic offshootness of Finns in comparison to Europe.

The genetic bottlenecks and drifts most likely explain staggering schitzophenia rates of Finns, though.

Again Swedish-speaking Ostrobotnians differ from Finnish-speaking Ostrobotnians, this difference is likely to exarcebate when Finns are finally sampled next to Khanties and other Siberians, so far we don't have any study on this, but since we know how Finns tend to re-position themselves in the global charts of commercial dna vendors, we are likely to expect Finns differing from rest of the Europe even more.

The culture/language and genetics of Finns make both only sense while contrasted to Arctic peoples, that's the way it goes, buddy.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-02-25, 11:01
The majority of Finns are nowhere near at the close of the edge, any data from commercial dna-bank will confirm you this, as does the chart supplied by Polako, with a sample of 15 Finns. Please do not dodge the question I've asked twice already. Give an answer which explains why the majority of Finns are living in the southwest of the country and why this majority would be an extreme edge!


Your thread is nice, although you give too much weight for the bottlenecks and drifts, the most important reason for the messed Finnish genetics compared to that of Europeans is the fundementally different founding populations.
Such as??????


We do not have single European Indo-European population whose genetic data would act similar way than does the Finnish,
As in the relative isolation as seen in Sardinians? As the east/west differencies visible in Icelanders? As the high amount of N1c in Latvians and Lithuanians? Please specify what the hell you refer to.


I am skeptical of the drift and bottlenecks, alone explaining the genetic offshootness of Finns in comparison to Europe.
Of course you are. For you, facts based on scientific data is shit. You are determined to portray Finns as a weird and awful bunch of scumbags from somewhere else, something science is not able to verify.


The genetic bottlenecks and drifts most likely explain staggering schitzophenia rates of Finns, though.
Bottlenecks and drift does not explain this. Again you display a ridiculosly low level of understanding of human genetics (DNA chromosones) vs. mental disorders. Two different factors are at work! And there are no "staggering rates" of schizophrenia in Finland. There are areas where this discease is surprisingly common, though (In fact you display some traits that resemble this discease...).


Again Swedish-speaking Ostrobotnians differ from Finnish-speaking Ostrobotnians, this difference is likely to exarcebate when Finns are finally sampled next to Khanties and other Siberians
You are a complete idiot. Khanties would push Finnishspeaking closer to swedishspeaking. Khanties and Siberians simply do not have the same origin as Finns and Finlandswedes evidently have....


so far we don't have any study on this, but since we know how Finns tend to re-position themselves in the global charts of commercial dna vendors, Ha,ha,ha! Like I wrote, a complete idiot. Look at the chart posted by Viking on this thread. Finns cluster closer to othje north Europeans. And in all global charts. Reason? Finns are north Europeans.


we are likely to expect Finns differing from rest of the Europe even more.
Laughable..!

The culture/language and genetics of Finns make both only sense while contrasted to Arctic peoples, that's the way it goes, buddy.:whoco::whoco::whoco::whoco::whoco:Yes, in your head, only.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-25, 18:29
Here is some obvisous reasons why Finns look as outliers in Europe.

- the obvious lack of northern reference data
- wrong reference data in global principal component pictures. Using Chinese samples instead of Northern Asian / Siberian samples for the East Asian references causes a pronounced distortion in PC-plots.
- the used definition of what means European. Even 30% of Middle Eastern affinity in Italian results is included in term European, but 1-5% Siberian affinity in Finnish samples is excluded.

The fact is that IF we at first determine genetic attributes by selecting typical genetic attribites (typical SNPs) for all main ethnic groups, like for Europeans and Middle Easteners, East Asians etc., we'll find that Finns are one of the most European people.

Altay
2010-05-25, 18:38
- wrong reference data in global principal component pictures. Using Chinese samples instead of Northern Asian / Siberian samples for the East Asian references causes a pronounced distortion in PC-plots.Can you expand that? Why should North Asians be used for East Asian reference instead of East Asians?

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-25, 19:21
Can you expand that? Why should North Asians be used for East Asian reference instead of East Asians?


Because North Asians have just the same Eastern Asians affinity with Chineses and Finns and North Russians have expressly the North Asian affinity. Finnish ties with Chineses are extremely old and weak compared with North Asians / Siberians. When North Asians have also obvious European affinity, not only with Finns but also with other European groups, they would exist on the PC-plots much close Europeans and this again impacts on the Finnish genetic-geographical placement. In PC-plots everything has effect with everything, there is no absolute locations.

Karhunkynsi
2010-05-25, 19:36
Which North Asian group you would choose as reference group ? I mean they have pretty diverse origins. South Siberians from Altay (Tofalars, Tuvinians etc) are not exactly identical with Nenets or Nganasan. We know next to nothing about internal genetic structure of these people.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-25, 20:06
Which North Asian group you would choose as reference group ? I mean they have pretty diverse origins. South Siberians from Altay (Tofalars, Tuvinians etc) are not exactly identical with Nenets or Nganasan. We know next to nothing about internal genetic structure of these people.

I don't exactly know, but I have done some comparisons with well known and often used Yakutian reference and it revealed this weakness in current studies. I cannot say that it would be better than some other North Asian group, but it is definitely better than Chinese rerefence.

I recommend also to look at this study, which shows differences between some North Asian populations. Please note the similarity between North Russians and certain North Asians, becuase the East Asian similarity of Russians have been supposed to be East Asian. Figure 3.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7282/full/nature08835.html

Karhunkynsi
2010-05-25, 20:46
Nganasans seem to be mainly made out of that yellow stuff (pic 3.). Nganasans are Samoyeds, linguistically Uralic speakers. Samoyedic expansion begun from Altay-Sayan mountains about 2000 years ago and reached Northeast Europe about thousend+ years ago. Nenets obviously are the Europe's Samoyed speakers. If North Russians have that 5-8%, then we will propably have about half of that. It would be interesting to see how much Saami have it.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-25, 21:32
If North Russians have that 5-8%, then we will propably have about half of that.

Correct



It would be interesting to see how much Saami have it.

I don't know, but suppose that it is much more than Northern Russians have.

Polako
2010-05-26, 04:10
Here is some obvisous reasons why Finns look as outliers in Europe.

- the obvious lack of northern reference data
- wrong reference data in global principal component pictures. Using Chinese samples instead of Northern Asian / Siberian samples for the East Asian references causes a pronounced distortion in PC-plots.
- the used definition of what means European. Even 30% of Middle Eastern affinity in Italian results is included in term European, but 1-5% Siberian affinity in Finnish samples is excluded.

There's plenty of distortion on intra-European PCAs as far as Finns are concerned, especially at 23andMe and deCODEme, simply because Finns aren't used as reference groups there. Once they're added, the dynamics will change drastically.

But there isn't much distortion on the global plots, because no matter what, if someone has influence from any part of North/East Eurasia around the Urals and beyond, they'll be forced towards East Asia to some degree, even if they've never had any East Asian proper ancestors. It's just a matter of increasing levels of haplotype sharing for whatever reason.

BTW, I think the Yakut, Hezhen and Oroqen are pretty good reference samples for North/East Eurasian influence in Northern Europe, because they have majority membership in that cluster that appears in the Vologda Russians at around 8% (see the plot from the Paleo-Eskimo paper). I suspect that most Finns would score around 4-5% of that, although many West Finns might get as low as 1-2%.

Motörhead Remember Me
2010-05-26, 07:53
- the used definition of what means European. Even 30% of Middle Eastern affinity in Italian results is included in term European, but 1-5% Siberian affinity in Finnish samples is excluded.

The fact is that IF we at first determine genetic attributes by selecting typical genetic attribites (typical SNPs) for all main ethnic groups, like for Europeans and Middle Easteners, East Asians etc., we'll find that Finns are one of the most European people.

You're right here. This IS the weirdest thing. Middle eastern scores should by honest logic not be included as European. Finns score negative ME scores making them more uber European than the peoples scoring + on ME.

---------- Post added 2010-05-26 at 06:56 ----------


I suspect that most Finns would score around 4-5% of that, although many West Finns might get as low as 1-2%.

It's hard for me to believe that before I actually see those results. Why would most Finns would score that high since most Finns are western Finns?

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-26, 08:05
But there isn't much distortion on the global plots, because no matter what, if someone has influence from any part of North/East Eurasia around the Urals and beyond, they'll be forced towards East Asia to some degree, even if they've never had any East Asian proper ancestors. It's just a matter of increasing levels of haplotype sharing for whatever reason.


I see it a bit differently, but we have to wait new studies to see.

---------- Post added 2010-05-26 at 10:15 ----------




It's hard for me to believe that before I actually see those results. Why would most Finns would score that high since most Finns are western Finns?

Here are western Finns and other kind of western Finns. Basically all studies classifies Finns very categorically and Tavastians as western Finns, though they are intermediate tribe between the coastal and Karelian people. Southern Ostrobothnians are partly like Tavastians. Considering only coastal Finns Polako's estimate seems to be right.

Graeme
2010-05-26, 08:51
Please explain how you see it a bit differently. Just curious.

I would have thought it very easy to work out the peopling of Finland. It has not had the putative, continuous human occupation since the Paleolithic like the southern parts of Europe, and archeological sites, human remains and a thorough examination and breakdown of the Finnish language should give more relevant information than trying to untangle the tapestry that is the history of peoples further south. You should think yourselves very lucky that you just have a 10,000 year window to work on.

So the Finns are slightly different from other Europeans. So are the Basques, and certain island populations of the Mediterranean. It is a bad habit of genetic studies to compare various people with some sort of Standard European which seems most often some group of Euro Americans or some ethnic group thought to represent a snap shot of Proto Europeans. What if the Finns are the best representative of Proto Europeans? That would make Finns the Standard and not outliers. I often consider what is considered European in McDonald's and others studies is really some group that entered Europe from the east no more than 10,000 years ago. There is nothing of the Paleolithic peoples left in genetics of Europe, despite the recent resurgence of the idea that Neanderthals mixed with Paleolithic Europeans, and other Eurasians, but are just various descendants of easterners like the Neolithic farmers and the I.E speaking peoples who followed them but took different routes into Europe. The main division in Europe is north and south. The Finns are in the north group.

Polako
2010-05-26, 09:11
You're right here. This IS the weirdest thing. Middle eastern scores should by honest logic not be included as European. Finns score negative ME scores making them more uber European than the peoples scoring + on ME.

The BGA doesn't test how European someone is. It just shows affinity scores based on haplotype sharing between the individual and the HGDP reference samples, against the average of the HGDP samples.

So there are four main reasons why Finns score negative Middle Eastern on the BGA...

1) Isolation and genetic drift in the north.

2) Lower Middle Eastern admix than in other Europeans.

3) Lower African admix than in other Europeans.

4) Higher Siberian admix than in other Europeans and Middle Easterners.

What this does is it reduces the haplotype sharing between them and Middle Easterners, to levels well below the average for the HGDP European reference samples (ie. negative).

So to work out someone's "uber-European" score, you'd need to do a genome-wide admixture analysis.


It's hard for me to believe that before I actually see those results. Why would most Finns would score that high since most Finns are western Finns?

Well in any case, there seems to be a clear southwest to north/northeast cline in North/East Eurasian influence in Finland, and most of the Finns I've studied in various ways show influence from North/East Eurasia at levels about half of those of the Vologda Russians. These Russians score about 5-10% more North/East Eurasian affinity/admixture than Central Europeans, depending on the test.

And it's true that North Eurasians aren't East Asians, but in the end, it just comes down to haplotype sharing, because the cline of diversity from Europe to Japan is pretty much a straight line, with only some deviation to the Americas. So everyone from North Eurasia (Europe to Japan) gets placed in that stream; Europeans with the least Asian influence get bunched up in one corner, and the Japanese in another, while Siberians and all the rest are between them.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-26, 09:24
Please explain how you see it a bit differently. Just curious.



I meant that the results of Principal Component tools depends on sample material and we, Polako and me, have a slightly different understanding about it. IMO, it is question about genetic network where everything impacts everything and the placement of Finns depends on selected samples. I cannot describe this more closer without material.




I would have thought it very easy to work out the peopling of Finland. It has not had the putative, continuous human occupation since the Paleolithic like the southern parts of Europe, and archeological sites, human remains and a thorough examination and breakdown of the Finnish language should give more relevant information than trying to untangle the tapestry that is the history of peoples further south. You should think yourselves very lucky that you just have a 10,000 year window to work on.

So the Finns are slightly different from other Europeans. So are the Basques, and certain island populations of the Mediterranean. It is a bad habit of genetic studies to compare various people with some sort of Standard European which seems most often some group of Euro Americans or some ethnic group thought to represent a snap shot of Proto Europeans. What if the Finns are the best representative of Proto Europeans? That would make Finns the Standard and not outliers. I often consider what is considered European in McDonald's and others studies is really some group that entered Europe from the east no more than 10,000 years ago. There is nothing of the Paleolithic peoples left in genetics of Europe, despite the recent resurgence of the idea that Neanderthals mixed with Paleolithic Europeans, and other Eurasians, but are just various descendants of easterners like the Neolithic farmers and the I.E speaking peoples who followed them but took different routes into Europe. The main division in Europe is north and south. The Finns are in the north group.

IMHO Finns are not so unique group as you describe... and not so old. Your opinion is quite exaggerated, but also widespread.

Polako
2010-05-26, 09:34
I meant that the results of Principal Component tools depends on sample material and we, Polako and me, have a slightly different understanding about it.

You do realize though that the Yakut, Hezhen, Oroqen and other HGDP samples with heavy Siberian admix are usually part of these global PCAs?

They don't cluster in a space of their own away from the Europe to East Asia cline, but place about 3/4 between Europe and East Asia. So there's nowhere to go for Finns; they'll basically end up close to the Vologda Russians, as happens on Dr. McD's global plots and at deCODEme.

Karhunkynsi
2010-05-26, 10:03
You do realize though that the Yakut, Hezhen, Oroqen and other HGDP samples with heavy Siberian admix are usually part of these global PCAs?


Leaving PCAs a side there is clearly three separate clusters in eastern North Eurasia. Take a loot at the structure plot at "Frozen Eskimo" study. One of these clusters is "East Asian", other one is clearly "North Asian" or more likely "Paleosiberian"/Arctic and is Northeast Asian. Hezhen and Orogen clearly have majority membership in "East Asian" cluster not in "Paleosiberian/Arctic" or NE Asian clusters (which is minority membership cluster for them).

North Russians have unsignificant (propably less that 1%) membership in East Asian cluster, none at all in NE Asian and allmost all of that East Eurasian membership is due the Paleosiberian/Arctic cluster.

Only mystery involved here is that how and when did this genetic flow appear in Europe. My bet would be the Samoyedic expansion, which is rather recent.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-26, 10:07
You do realize though that the Yakut, Hezhen, Oroqen and other HGDP samples with heavy Siberian admix are usually part of these global PCAs?

They don't cluster in a space of their own away from the Europe to East Asia cline, but place about 3/4 between Europe and East Asia. So there's nowhere to go for Finns; they'll basically end up close to the Vologda Russians, as happens on Dr. McD's global plots and at deCODEme.

Dr. McD's plots look surely fine, but not all studies. Yeah, Finns are probably close Vologda Russians, to westwards of them or to the direction where Saami people would be, if we only could get their samples. Finns are probably more heterogeneous by Asian admix than expected, I think that Asian affinity would be 1-10%, being highest in Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish Lapland.

btw, have you Dr. McD's global plots with Finnish samples? It would be nice to see them.

Polako
2010-05-26, 10:23
Leaving PCAs a side there is clearly three separate clusters in eastern North Eurasia. Take a loot at the structure plot at "Frozen Eskimo" study. One of these clusters is "East Asian", other one is clearly "North Asian" or more likely "Paleosiberian"/Arctic and is Northeast Asian.

There are as many clusters as the marker resolution and choice of Ks allow, but they're all part of the same cline. Even Europeans are part of this Eurasian cline. It's just that programs like Structure and Admixture are forced to chop up that cline into however many Ks are chosen.


North Russians have unsignificant (propably less that 1%) membership in East Asian cluster, none at all in NE Asian and allmost all of that East Eurasian membership is due the Paleosiberian/Arctic cluster.

That's true, but the thing is that increased membership in the Paleosiberian cluster also means increased haplotype sharing with East Asians proper.


Only mystery involved here is that how and when did this genetic flow appear in Europe. My bet would be the Samoyedic expansion, which is rather recent.

It's impossible to tell from this analysis, because this is all just inferred ancestry/admixture. So what we're actually seeing are estimates of probability of the studied samples being mistaken for each other.

It could well be that the people living all the way from Europe to Nganassan country, and beyond, have shared genetic links since they they moved to North Eurasia from the south during the Mesolithic, and that relationship is pretty much clinal all the way from Spain to Siberia.

But of course we know from other, more detailed analysis, that the Vologda Russians carry segments that can be sourced to HGDP groups like the Tu and Xibo, in lieu of other more appropriate samples. So this is all a lot more complex than the Samoyed migrations, and looks more like a compounded effect involving everything from the Ice Age to the Turko Mongols, with the older factors being more important IMO.

---------- Post added 2010-05-26 at 09:31 ----------


btw, have you Dr. McD's global plots with Finnish samples? It would be nice to see them.

Aino's parents are on the communal forum plots (dad is a south Finn, mum an east Finn), and they both cluster around the Vologda bunch. I don't think that's particularly accurate when it comes to intra-European variation, but I can't see it changing on the global plot even if lots of Finns were to be added.

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=303

Graeme
2010-05-26, 10:32
I meant that the results of Principal Component tools depends on sample material and we, Polako and me, have a slightly different understanding about it. IMO, it is question about genetic network where everything impacts everything and the placement of Finns depends on selected samples. I cannot describe this more closer without material.



IMHO Finns are not so unique group as you describe... and not so old. Your opinion is quite exaggerated, but also widespread.

Sorry if it seemed I absolutely believed what I wrote. I just reflect what has been said previously by others as I have not made any people in Europe my focus. I have actually never believed Finns to be an old people.

I am a European, and I don't get a fig, I am being polite, for the differences between Europeans. Orkney Scots, Finns from whichever part of Finland, Germans, Poles, Italians, Greeks...even my people the Maltese. All Europeans. The genetic differences between us are nothing, our cultures and history unite us as a geographic people.

So far, all those PCA maps have shown me is that I come from the geographic locale I said I came from, and my people come from. A sort of GPS coordinates in my SNPs. At least it wasn't Timbuktu or Beijing or Sana'a.

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-26, 11:28
Sorry if it seemed I absolutely believed what I wrote. I just reflect what has been said previously by others as I have not made any people in Europe my focus. I have actually never believed Finns to be an old people.

I am a European, and I don't get a fig, I am being polite, for the differences between Europeans. Orkney Scots, Finns from whichever part of Finland, Germans, Poles, Italians, Greeks...even my people the Maltese. All Europeans. The genetic differences between us are nothing, our cultures and history unite us as a geographic people.

So far, all those PCA maps have shown me is that I come from the geographic locale I said I came from, and my people come from. A sort of GPS coordinates in my SNPs. At least it wasn't Timbuktu or Beijing or Sana'a.


My opinion is that we have until now quite a rough picture about the origin of Europeans, or we have hundreds differing opinions. We even squabble wherefrom Poles have come, and it should certainly be better known than wherefrom Finns came :)

Well, what I want to say about the headline: Finland have over 2000 km land border with Sweden, Norway and Russia, and old Finns were seafarers according to the Finnish national epos Kalevala, so I am not surprised if some lost sometimes their way here also later :p

Polako
2010-05-26, 13:02
My opinion is that we have until now quite a rough picture about the origin of Europeans, or we have hundreds differing opinions. We even squabble wherefrom Poles have come, and it should certainly be better known than wherefrom Finns came.

Well it's not really all that complicated, even though the finer details are a mystery to us at this stage.

Basically, Europeans are a relatively homogeneous continental population, but with increasing haplotype sharing with Sub-Saharan Africans towards the southwest, southeast and even west, and increasing haplotype sharing with North and East Eurasians towards the northeast and east.

Some of those increases are very gradual, suggesting they're caused by ancient population movements, and others are more choppy, and a bit out of whack with geography, and thus probably the result of more recent influence.

The Frappe plots in this PDF (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2010/05/05/0914618107.DCSupplemental/pnas.200914618SI.pdf) illustrate well what I mean.

KRANG
2010-05-26, 13:17
Just courious Polako, do europeans have more genetic diversity than east asians and ocenaians?

Lemminkäinen
2010-05-26, 13:54
Well, I forgot to mention: in some studies strongly underlined unique and "paleolithic" Finnish genetic inheritance is in fact a genetic fingerprint of only 500-600 years old Finnish subpopulation.

Polako
2010-05-26, 14:02
Just courious Polako, do europeans have more genetic diversity than east asians and ocenaians?

Definitely more than East Asians, but I'm not sure about Oceanians.