View Full Version : Are Puerto Ricans the most proud of their Black heritage out of all Latinos?
I took this topic from another board. And I am think about a Afro caribbeans Latinos thread .
Celebrating Puerto Rico's Black Heritage
The average tourist visiting Puerto Rico never learns about the African history that is vivid and alive throughout the island. Too often, the Spanish and indigenous roots of Puerto Rico are highlighted to tourists while the African heritage is left unspoken. For many years, the Black history of Puerto Rico was even missing from Puerto Rico's history books. Thankfully as a new generation of conscious Puerto Ricans, both Black and mixed explore their African heritage, this erasure is ending.
"El Museo de Nuestra Raiz Africana" (the Museum of our African Roots) located in Old San Juan, Puerto Rico, is where you can learn about the African cultural influence of Puerto Rico. This heritage is celebrated through paintings, artifacts, documents and photographs. According to the museum brochure, "one of the aims of the museum is to preserve, collect, document and spread the history and culture of Puerto Rico that grew out of the Black population's experience on the island."
http://seeingblack.com/2004/x021304/puertorico.shtml
Black Puerto Rican Identity and Religious Experience.
Through Dr. Hernández Hiraldo's investigation we are able to enter a world that is known mainly for its religious African folklore. A serious anthropological research on the multidimensional religious experience of the Loízans has never been accomplished until this field study was made. What we find here is kind of top secret and very revealing of this community's ups and downs. Through almost an entire year of field word, the author not only shows us that Loizans are spiritists (or witches) and Catholics, but also she takes us into a Protestant world we usually are not conscious of. And I think this is her main contribution. But my main concern is the position in which she places the Catholic Church. As a historian I think the way she handles the Catholic history of the region and of Puerto Rico as a whole is very weak. Even the sources she uses for her historical data on Catholism in the Island are not the best ones. Also I wonder why she gives more pre-eminence to the Protestant material and analysis when she herself acknowledges that the Loizans' mainstream religious inclination is toward Catholism, regardless of whether they are regular practitioners or Catholics by name (católicos de nombre).
She places a heavy emphasis on describing the different Protestant churches rituals and pastoral care, putting aside a religious dimension of the Loizans which is still important in their lives even though the author is not willing to admit it: the African religious heritage and its actual mingling with Spiritism and the newcomer Santería. I don't want to think that because of the author's own Protestant background she is unconsciously inclined toward favoring the subject of the different Protestant churches in Loíza which she shows that she understands better than when she is dealing with the Catholic subject. As an example at hand, she leaves the reader with the impression that what has saved the Catholic Church in Loiza and in the whole Island is the Charismatic movement…
Through Dr. Hernández Hiraldo's investigation we are able to enter a world that is known mainly for its religious African folklore. A serious anthropological research on the multidimensional religious experience of the Loízans has never been accomplished until this field study was made. What we find here is kind of top secret and very revealing of this community's ups and downs. Through almost an entire year of field word, the author not only shows us that Loizans are spiritists (or witches) and Catholics, but also she takes us into a Protestant world we usually are not conscious of. And I think this is her main contribution. But my main concern is the position in which she places the Catholic Church. As a historian I think the way she handles the Catholic history of the region and of Puerto Rico as a whole is very weak. Even the sources she uses for her historical data on Catholism in the Island are not the best ones. Also I wonder why she gives more pre-eminence to the Protestant material and analysis when she herself acknowledges that the Loizans' mainstream religious inclination is toward Catholism, regardless of whether they are regular practitioners or Catholics by name (católicos de nombre).
She places a heavy emphasis on describing the different Protestant churches rituals and pastoral care, putting aside a religious dimension of the Loizans which is still important in their lives even though the author is not willing to admit it: the African religious heritage and its actual mingling with Spiritism and the newcomer Santería. I don't want to think that because of the author's own Protestant background she is unconsciously inclined toward favoring the subject of the different Protestant churches in Loíza which she shows that she understands better than when she is dealing with the Catholic subject. As an example at hand, she leaves the reader with the impression that what has saved the Catholic Church in Loiza and in the whole Island is the Charismatic movement…
http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/27874334/Black-Puerto-Rican-Identity-and-Religious-Experience
I'd say that outwardly, yes. While Dominicans are culturally and physically the most African, PR on the other hand (especially recently) is very proud of their African roots while the DR has a complex that systematically attempts to belittle or even deny African ancestry. Its really pretty damn sad, but it is what is is. 2 out of 3 young Ricans in NY wears corn rows, etc, and no other Latino group in America does that (xcept Dominicans who become Americanized, go figure)
I'd say that outwardly, yes. While Dominicans are culturally and physically the most African, PR on the other hand (especially recently) is very proud of their African roots while the DR has a complex that systematically attempts to belittle or even deny African ancestry. Its really pretty damn sad, but it is what is is. 2 out of 3 young Ricans in NY wears corn rows, etc, and no other Latino group in America does that (xcept Dominicans who become Americanized, go figure)
I agree, although I don't have any problem with Dominicans acknowledging their African,European and Amerindian ancestry. I think it becomes sad when dark skinned people like Sammy Sosa whiten their skin. Or when black Dominicans call themselves burnt Indian to avoid their blackness. I notice how Puerto Ricans took on to music like Reggaeton which was created right in the Caribbean and Costal Caribbean area.
Well puertoricos case is more complex, there is a simple rule in the diaspora, When being black or african-descended is in the minority then people are more self inclusive and self identify as black more often, there is more pride, because unity comes out of being a minority. When Blacks are the majority, in the case of D.R, Jamaica, Haiti, there is alot more self hate, and blackness is reserved for the darkest skinned people, the rest are called, red, brown, coolie, chiney, indio, marabou, mulatto, etc. I agree with Windie that self identifying as tri-racial is not a bad thing or negative.
I do not think Reggaeton is a good sense of puertoricos blackness, but it is connected to it, as the rythm in reggaeton ALREADY existed in puertorico specially in Plena music, if you hear how the frame drums communicate in plena, its pretty much the same dembow reggaeton rythm, so when panamanian and jamaican artist where being heard in puertorico, it had rythms that for the most part already existed.
As far as D.R having the most African visibliy and culturally, i say defiently visibly. But i have to give to the 3, Cuba, Haiti, Brazil for having the most African culture thats still alive, this is mostly due to these 3 countries importing africans till the late 1800s or more isolation. But After those 3, D.R definetly follows, because Palo, Congo, Bambula, Salve, Sarandunga, and other Drum genres in D.R are highly african and some even contain many Kikongo words, its just things arent on the level of Cuba/Haiti/Brazil because there was alot more criollismo and less reinforcement. Nevertheless the D.R collectively though has alot more African culture then European culture, in comparison to lets say Cuba which has a strong tradition of Spanish Decimas and Coplas, the D.R has very few of these spanish derived musics and dances, most have died out. Brazil also has many of these european dances along with african ones, the d.r overall definetly has more African culture then european atleast in its music and dance.
Decimator
2010-01-16, 06:50
I'd say that outwardly, yes. While Dominicans are culturally and physically the most African, PR on the other hand (especially recently) is very proud of their African roots while the DR has a complex that systematically attempts to belittle or even deny African ancestry. Its really pretty damn sad, but it is what is is. 2 out of 3 young Ricans in NY wears corn rows, etc, and no other Latino group in America does that (xcept Dominicans who become Americanized, go figure)
http://www.indhorap.com/images/noticias/INDHObatanga.jpg
http://galeon.hispavista.com/hip-hop-rock-funkrap/img/cambio2.jpg
Although this guy is obviously a wigger
Well puertoricos case is more complex, there is a simple rule in the diaspora, When being black or african-descended is in the minority then people are more self inclusive and self identify as black more often, there is more pride, because unity comes out of being a minority. When Blacks are the majority, in the case of D.R, Jamaica, Haiti, there is alot more self hate, and blackness is reserved for the darkest skinned people, the rest are called, red, brown, coolie, chiney, indio, marabou, mulatto, etc. I agree with Windie that self identifying as tri-racial is not a bad thing or negative.
I mostly agree but I wouldn't say that the rule applies every where in the African diasora. I see it in the Hispanic areas a bit more since blacks tend to be the minority in most of the countries. In the French Caribbean, Martinique and Guadeloupe for example, their are self identify black mulattos from the days of slavery. I even heard Haitians say poor mulattos are counted as black and some rich blacks counted as mulatto. The English Caribbean is in between the extremes of the one drop rule( United States)and the one drop rule in reverse (some Latin countries). I think in some Latin Countries the (Dominican Republic) the slave master and slave relationship was a lot closer than other areas. You still will find more self identified blacks since the days of slavery in the English speaking Caribbean. What a person is called is not necessarly how the identify in the English Caribbean. Good read:Slave colonies of Great Britain:
http://books.google.bs/books?id=AiYGAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=free+people+of+colour+blacks+bahaas&source=bl&ots=3T8OUFrQhL&sig=-1butLKPn9gMHtp4nwnmt9yBcxU&hl=en&ei=G69RS9i-LY20tge_9K2tDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
I do not think Reggaeton is a good sense of puertoricos blackness, but it is connected to it, as the rythm in reggaeton ALREADY existed in puertorico specially in Plena music, if you hear how the frame drums communicate in plena, its pretty much the same dembow reggaeton rythm, so when panamanian and jamaican artist where being heard in puertorico, it had rythms that for the most part already existed.
I know African influence music was already in Puerto Rico. My point is Reggaeton was created in the costal caribbean Central America area but they caught on to it.
As far as D.R having the most African visibliy and culturally, i say defiently visibly. But i have to give to the 3, Cuba, Haiti, Brazil for having the most African culture thats still alive, this is mostly due to these 3 countries importing africans till the late 1800s or more isolation. But After those 3, D.R definetly follows, because Palo, Congo, Bambula, Salve, Sarandunga, and other Drum genres in D.R are highly african and some even contain many Kikongo words, its just things arent on the level of Cuba/Haiti/Brazil because there was alot more criollismo and less reinforcement. Nevertheless the D.R collectively though has alot more African culture then European culture, in comparison to lets say Cuba which has a strong tradition of Spanish Decimas and Coplas, the D.R has very few of these spanish derived musics and dances, most have died out. Brazil also has many of these european dances along with african ones, the d.r overall definetly has more African culture then european atleast in its music and dance.
I agree.
What I wonder is why the Black people of the Caribbean should be proud of Africa. After all, it were Africans who sold theirs ancestors into slavery. That people is proud to be "Black" makes sense, but from being "African" doesn't.
With respect to the Caribbean, Cubans celebrate everything Africans, but I guess is more for political reason than anything else, but the elites are Hispanic. Puerto Rico is more an average Hispanic country located in the Caribbean, so the "Black pride" is more a thing of emigrants rather than locals.
With respect to Dominican Republic, they have Africa just at theirs side. It is called Haiti. And they don't want to be identified or be proud of a country such as Haiti that invaded them and has produced so much problems. In any case, in a very revealing song Juan Luis Guerra says they are a hot race "Black, White and Taina". Dominicans want to be tri-racials, not Africans.
Lemba this is where I place Black New Worlders with Human variation.
First are :Afro Peruvians, Afro Brazilians,Afro Argentineans. Because genetically they show highest non African admixture of Black New Worlders.
Abstract A total of 218 individuals living in the Brazilian cities of Porto Alegre (in the South) and Salvador (in the Northeast) were variously studied in relation to nine erythrocyte and four plasma protein systems. The results were compared with previous studies in some of these systems, and estimates of interethnic admixture obtained in subsamples according to morphological appearance. As a whole, Afro-Brazilians from Salvador show 42% of non-African genes, the corresponding figure for Porto Alegre being 59%. The Amerindian contribution to these individuals was estimated as null or negligible. Average heterozygosities are similar to those obtained for African groups, but the gene differentiation coefficient (GST') is small. The phylogenetic tree indicates a closer relationship of Salvador with the African subcluster, as would be expected by the admixture and istorical data. Analyses such as this one are important for the unraveling of the complex networks responsible for the present variability of human populations, and for the dispelling of racist concepts.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/e531417021w91032/
Phenotype Range of Afro Brazilians:
http://www.thesouthendnews.com/polopoly_fs/1.910994!image/1318309609.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_260/1318309609.jpg
http://artsguaracyana.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tina20de20souza20photo.bmp
http://fernandafreitas.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/benedita_da_silva1.jpg
------------------------------------------------------
Second:African Americans and some French and English Afro Caribbeans
African Americans
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_s_FQyBVTqR4/SrawKUNMWCI/AAAAAAAAGvE/bPBQnrlnQpE/s320/Afro+American_BlackMan.jpg
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/stone/rock.jpg
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/imager/book_review_ace_of_spades/b/big/1139859/cd4e/unknown.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_30PRmkOl4ro/SfGXTAVrBwI/AAAAAAAAOds/ZzHKUV54aHE/s400/african-american-hairstyles2.jpg
French Caribbean
http://www.celebritywonder.com/picture/Chrystele_Saint_Louis_Augustin/ChrysteleSai_Barson_7686671.jpg
http://www.all-about-tennis.com/images/gael_monfils.gif
English Caribbean
http://www.dlpbarbados.org/cms/images/stories/candidates/april2007/candidates%20big%20pics/dthompson.jpg
http://www.reggae-vibes.com/concert/redrat/pics/redrat2.jpg
http://www.post2share.com/music/images/rihanna775.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fIZ2fYedjaAq/610x.jpg
http://images.buddytv.com/articles/Image/what-are-they-up-to-tatyana-ali.jpg
Implications of correlations between skin color and genetic ancestry for biomedical research
Skin pigmentation is a central element of most discussions on 'race' and genetics. Research on the genetic basis of population variation in this phenotype, which is important in mediating both social experiences and environmental exposures, is sparse. We studied the relationship between pigmentation and ancestry in five populations of mixed ancestry with a wide range of pigmentation and ancestral proportions (African Americans from Washington, DC; African Caribbeans living in England; Puerto Ricans from New York; Mexicans from Guerrero; and Hispanics from San Luis Valley). The strength of the relationship between skin color and ancestry was quite variable, with the correlations ranging in intensity from moderately strong (Puerto Rico, = 0.633) to weak (Mexico, = 0.212). These results demonstrate the utility of ancestry-informative genetic markers and admixture methods and emphasize the need to be cautious when using pigmentation as a proxy of ancestry or when extrapolating the results from one admixed population to another.
Materials and methods
We measured constitutive skin pigmentation in the African American, African Caribbean, Puerto Rican and Mexican individuals on the upper inner side of both arms of each person using a DermaSpectrometer (Cortex Technology), and we report the melanin content as the melanin index. We measured constitutive skin pigmentation in the Hispanic individuals on the upper inner arm using a Photovolt model 575 spectrophotometer (Photovolt Instruments), and we report the melanin content as the lightness index (see ref. 18 for more information about melanin and lightness indices).
Skin color and genetic ancestry in five admixed samples
Quote:
The five populations sampled in this study show a wide range of both skin pigmentation and admixture levels. The African Caribbean individuals had the highest average melanin index (57.8 0.74), followed by the African American individuals (53.4 0.63) and the Mexican individuals (46.1 0.37), whereas the Puerto Rican individuals had the lowest average constitutive pigmentation (36.80.75; Fig. 2).
The African Caribbean and African American individuals had a much wider range of skin pigmentation than did the Mexican and Puerto Rican individuals. The average lightness index in the Hispanic individuals was 30.4 0.18. Because we used different technology to measure skin reflectance in the Hispanic individuals, it is not possible to compare directly the distribution of constitutive skin pigmentation in these individuals with that of the other four populations.
Quote:
Figure 3 shows a triangular representation of the average West African, European and Indigenous American ancestry levels estimated using the WLS method23. The African Caribbean and African American individuals were of primarily West African ancestry (87.9 1.1% and 78.7 1.2%, respectively). The second main component of ancestry in these populations was European, which was relatively smaller in African Caribbean than in African American individuals (10.2 1.4% versus 18.6 1.5%). The average Indigenous American contribution was substantially smaller in these two populations (1.9 1.3% and 2.7 1.4%, respectively).
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36...ll/ng1440.html
Legal History of the Color Line: The Rise and Triumph of the
Haitians produce scatter diagrams resembling those of Black Americans.
http://backintyme.com/essays/?p=5
3.Would be some English and French Caribbeans.
4.Spanish Caribbean
Afro Puerto Ricans at the top, since Cuba is pred White with a black minority then.
PR
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/1815226376_d890a01e7e.jpg?v=0
http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/exhibitionist/clemente.jpg
Cuba
http://www.hotsalsa.no/images/Alain%20Moralez.jpg
http://www.salsasf.com/features/interviews/tcaturla.jpg
Dominican Republic
http://www.holamun2.com/files/images/attachments/2008/01/zoe-saldana.jpg
http://trueslant.com/donovan/files/2009/07/davidortiz.jpg
http://swamigp.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/ramirez1.jpg
Decimator
2010-01-17, 00:49
Sorry but I don't agree with those Black dudes having more variation in Pigmentation than Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans for that matter.
black mexican
http://spa.fotolog.com/photo/58/54/120/petus_cachaguau/1263237626140_f.jpg
white aryan mexican
http://www.notifight.com/artman2/uploads/2/Canelo-EuriNF1.jpg
mittel mexican
http://fa.univision.com/attachments/univision/59559027541/23306/FernandoColunga2.jpg
Sanjub_Saraswati
2010-01-17, 01:04
What I wonder is why the Black people of the Caribbean should be proud of Africa. After all, it were Africans who sold theirs ancestors into slavery. That people is proud to be "Black" makes sense, but from being "African" doesn't.
Africa is a continent not a tribe or nation.:whoco:
You would make more sense if you said why are they proud of being igbo or yorubo who sold them.
I notice Puerto Ricans seem very in touched with AA Ghetto culture.
Quite frankly I don't think they should care for it. Not all PR people have African ancestry, so it would exclude them in a way. I think they should celebrate being uniquely what they are and leave Africa to black people.
...You would make more sense if you said why are they proud of being igbo or yorubo who sold them.
Absolutely, that's what I mean. Why should they be proud of the Igbo or Yoruba, who acted like Judas?
---------- Post added 2010-01-17 at 01:50 ----------
I notice Puerto Ricans seem very in touched with AA Ghetto culture.
Even the rascals in my own country follow the "Guetto" culture". I bet it has more to do with poverty, criminality and exclusion than with some strange "pride".
I'd say that outwardly, yes. While Dominicans are culturally and physically the most African, PR on the other hand (especially recently) is very proud of their African roots while the DR has a complex that systematically attempts to belittle or even deny African ancestry. Its really pretty damn sad, but it is what is is. 2 out of 3 young Ricans in NY wears corn rows, etc, and no other Latino group in America does that (xcept Dominicans who become Americanized, go figure)
Many Puerto Ricans wear corn rows in New York, Jersey, and Philadelphia. It may not be common in Puerto Rico to see this. I doubt, though, that wearing cornrows says anything definitive about how someone feels about their African heritage.
I’d argue, based on personal experience, Puerto Rican Americans (Puerto Ricans born and/or raised on the mainland) can be proud of their African heritage, but not in the conventional ways many in the U.S. expect. In other words, many Puerto Ricans can be proud of their African heritage (along with their other lineages) without embracing a black identity. There are many I’ve come across who even elevate their African cultural heritage above the Spanish and Taino because they see the African as more influential culturally, particularly in the area of music. Yet this is acknowledged within the context of being Puerto Rican or mixed. Often, this is independent of how the Puerto Rican actually looks.
Perfect examples would be musicians Jerry and Andy Gonzalez who look to be of predominant Spanish ancestry but their music reflects the African heritage of Puerto Rico.
Jerry Gonzalez
http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/1/7/5/0/650571_356x237.jpg
Andy Gonzalez
http://www.herencialatina.com/Eric/Libre%20-%20Andy%20Gonzalez.jpg
(I’m assuming of course the question that is being asked is are Puerto Ricans proud of their African heritage (compared to other Latinos) and not how many Puerto Ricans take pride in their African ancestry by self-identifying as black.)
Compared to other Latinos are they the proudest with respect to their African heritage? Again assuming we are talking about acknowledging and taking pride in African cultural influences and not necessarily black self-identity, I’d say no. That distinction, IMO, goes to Haitians (who are also Latin Americans), followed by Cubans as nationalities. Both have more African influences in their cultures and the populations appear to be more aware of them. In the case of Cuba, even the white population is culturally Africanized to some degree.
Cuba loves Africa, indeed. It gets nuts for it. A strange case in Iberian America.
Haiti is in Latin America as much as Quebec or Louisianna; just as a matter of definition. But Haiti has very little in common with the rest of Latin America (also known as Iberian America)
Cuba loves Africa, indeed. It gets nuts for it. A strange case in Iberian America.
There are political, historical and cultural reasons for this.
Cuba was both a settler colony, like your homeland, and a plantation colony, like Haiti or Jamaica. Hence, it has both strong African and Iberian influences. Strengthening ties with Africa and nurturing Afro-Cuban culture have been priorities of the communist government there.
African languages are still spoken in Cuba BTW.
Cuba loves Africa, indeed. It gets nuts for it. A strange case in Iberian America.
Haiti is in Latin America as much as Quebec or Louisianna; just as a matter of definition. But Haiti has very little in common with the rest of Latin America (also known as Iberian America)
Cuban's where the last to abolish slavery, and thus the African culture stayed fresher for longer, also not all iberians where equal, Guajiros and Gallegos where two different classes of people.
As far as Haitians being different, not really. Specially in contrast to D.R. Haiti and D.R are more similar to each other then D.R is to Cuba/Puertorico. The Material culture that survives in D.R is very much tied to the one in Haiti, as well as many manerisms, etc.
For example, Vodoun in D.R is both native to the D.R and Haitian influenced, we have a countryside community help system called "Konvite" deried from Haitian Konvit. We play Haitian derived musics as well, like Gaga, Mangulina and Carabine. They even made a Merengue song with a Gaga rythm recently. In a sense we are really the same people, to show the other side of the coin. Konmpa is Haitis most popular music and it arose out of Merengue from the Cibao region, Bands from the D.R would go to perform in Port. au prince and this influence led to Konmpa. Food wise our foods are pretty much the same, only exception is haitians have a spicy condiment they use in some of their foods, and sometimes use long grain instead of short grain rice.
The Carribean as a whole has Haitian influence, in Cuba Haitians are the primary influenec of the culture of "Oriente" Cuba, Santiago, Guantanamo, etc. Cubans play changui and Tumba Francesa as well as other Haitian derived genres in that region. Puertorican Bomba has its Haitian/martiniquean/Guadeloupean influences as well, very heavily to the point that the first puertorican bombas recorded are sung in Kreyol. Haiti is very intertwined with what is called "Latin" America, specially with the spanish and french speaking carribean.
Absolutely, that's what I mean. Why should they be proud of the Igbo or Yoruba, who acted like Judas?[COLOR="Silver"]
It has more to do with having pride in the culture derived from the slaves brought to the region and the slaves themselves, not in Africa or modern Africans. Without them our culture wouldn't be what it is now, this goes for non-afro descendants in the region (Caribbean) as well.
It's kind of humorous that you expect whites, with minor Amerindian admixture, to take pride in their Indian ancestry and to call themselves mestizos but then criticize afro-descendants for doing the same thing..
---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 18:00 ----------
Cuban's where the last to abolish slavery, and thus the
The Carribean as a whole has Haitian influence, in Cuba Haitians are the primary influenec of the culture of "Oriente" Cuba, Santiago, Guantanamo, etc. Cubans play changui and Tumba Francesa as well as other Haitian derived genres in that region. Puertorican Bomba has its Haitian/martiniquean/Guadeloupean influences as well, very heavily to the point that the first puertorican bombas recorded are sung in Kreyol. Haiti is very intertwined with what is called "Latin" America, specially with the spanish and french speaking carribean.
Gaga is also played/danced to in Cuba. Danzon, which was once Cuba's national dance was derived from Haitian-Cuban Danza. Also, Cuba has influenced Haiti vice-versa notably in the northern part of Haiti.
Kid From Timbuktu
2010-01-19, 23:00
D.R and Haiti got that Congo pimp juice.
Cuban's where the last to abolish slavery, and thus the African culture stayed fresher for longer, also not all iberians where equal, Guajiros and Gallegos where two different classes of people.
.
Well, that makes sense. There was slavery in Cuba up to 1898, if I am not wrong, because he island it was under the Spanish control.
As far as Haitians being different, not really. Specially in contrast to D.R. Haiti and D.R are more similar to each other then D.R is to Cuba/Puertorico. The Material culture that survives in D.R is very much tied to the one in Haiti, as well as many manerisms, etc.
.
D.R. speak Spanish and has quite a lot more Hispanic genetics than Haiti. That's a difference.
...Haiti is very intertwined with what is called "Latin" America, specially with the spanish and french speaking carribean.
With the rest of the Caribbean, and particularly the Hispanic Caribbean certain similarities may exist, particularly in the African subculture of those countries. However, there is not much similarity with the rest of Latin America at all, because what our Latin American countries have in common is the Iberian culture, the Iberian blood, and the Iberian roots and Haiti doesn't have them.
Haiti, Quebec, French Guyana and other places may be "technically" part of Latin America, because they speak in a Romance (Latin) language, but the culture is different.
The Carribean as a whole has Haitian influence, in Cuba Haitians are the primary influenec of the culture of "Oriente" Cuba, Santiago, Guantanamo, etc. Cubans play changui and Tumba Francesa as well as other Haitian derived genres in that region. Puertorican Bomba has its Haitian/martiniquean/Guadeloupean influences as well, very heavily to the point that the first puertorican bombas recorded are sung in Kreyol. Haiti is very intertwined with what is called "Latin" America, specially with the spanish and french speaking carribean.
IMO, Haiti has more influence on Carib Latin America than it does on British West Indies. Haitis cultural influences over Carib Latin America (Puerto Rico, Dom rep, Cuba) are only matched by Cubas and eve they're influenced by Haiti.
It has more to do with having pride in the culture derived from the slaves brought to the region and the slaves themselves, not in Africa or modern Africans. Without them our culture wouldn't be what it is now, this goes for non-afro descendants in the region (Caribbean) as well.
That's respectable.
It's kind of humorous that you expect whites, with minor Amerindian admixture, to take pride in their Indian ancestry and to call themselves mestizos but then criticize afro-descendants for doing the same thing..
Well, Caribbeans have a, for us, strage love for Africa, and mainland Latin Americans have a strange love for Native America. Each crazy with its own topic. And why shouldn't mestizos identify or at least respect Native Americans? After all, the Natives were invaded, by all the rest, and they were the FIRST peoples, and that counts.
In any case, for me it is strange that Blacks of the Americas many times dream on the Ancient Ghana, Mali or Nigeria, and forget that slavery started in that continent. They forget that theirs ancestors were sold into slavery by Africans!
In short, if I were Black I would be proud of the cultural achievements of the Blacks IN THE AMERICAS, not of Africa.
---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 21:12 ----------
IMO, Haiti has more influence on Carib Latin America than it does on British West Indies. Haitis cultural influences over Carib Latin America (Puerto Rico, Dom rep, Cuba) are only matched by Cubas and eve they're influenced by Haiti.
I wonder if there are Puero Ricans around. :whoco:
..just for the record, in the case of the Latin Americans I think Windie is refering to (Ricans,Cuban, Dominicans) they don't have to necessarily identify as racially black to be proud of their African roots. IMO it's more of matter of acknowledging it vs downplaying it culturally speaking.
IMO, Haiti has more influence on Carib Latin America than it does on British West Indies. Haitis cultural influences over Carib Latin America (Puerto Rico, Dom rep, Cuba) are only matched by Cubas and eve they're influenced by Haiti.
That's because there are more Haitians in Cuba and Dominican republic ,than the English Caribbean. Also, they are not recent arrivals in Cuba and DR like in the British West Indies. Over all Cubans and Dominicans identify more with Latin America while French and Dutch West Indian do not.
..just for the record, in the case of the Latin Americans I think Windie is refering to (Ricans,Cuban, Dominicans) they don't have to necessarily identify as racially black to be proud of their African roots. IMO it's more of matter of acknowledging it vs downplaying it culturally speaking.
The countries are the ones that identify with the African roots; not the people. I bet every Cuban, Puerto Rican and Dominican is proud of that PART of theirs heritage, without excluding the Spanish and Indigenous heritage from the equation.
..just for the record, in the case of the Latin Americans I think Windie is refering to (Ricans,Cuban, Dominicans) they don't have to necessarily identify as racially black to be proud of their African roots. IMO it's more of matter of acknowledging it vs downplaying it culturally speaking.
I didn't say they have to. I said I don't have a problem with them identifying as Tri-racial. Having African influence in a country doesn't mean the people know its black or African influenced. This applies to all new worlders.
... Over all Cubans and Dominicans identify more with Latin America while French and Dutch West Indian do not.
True. And the rest of Latin America see it the same way. "Our" countries in the Caribbean are Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, and the rest have different cultures.
Decimator
2010-01-20, 00:28
I think they're OK being proud with their African roots. After all that's what they are (partly). I prefer that to them saying they're Indios Aztecas and crap like some Chicano-wannabe boricua rapper whose name I can't remember.
I don't have a problem with that. Although I admit SamPR trolling in the old forum and obsessing with every little black diaspora in America was really shitty. Like when he said Yanga (some minor Black character in Mexico history) should be worshipped more than Pancho Villa.
True. And the rest of Latin America see it the same way. "Our" countries in the Caribbean are Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, and the rest have different cultures.
Many Cubans,Dominicans and Puerto Ricans also know they are from the Caribbean/West Indies.
I think that sometimes the definitions of blackness in the spanish speaking carribean may be misunderstood. Many people think that Negro defines blackness in D.R for example, or in Puerto Rico. But we use the word Moreno, to signify African ancestry. I dont think the spanish carribean identifies necesarily less then the english speaking carribean with their African ancestry. Its just thats its a different way of expressing it, To Dominicans, Puertoricans, Non-Anglophone Afro-Panamanians, and Coastal Carribean Colombians the word Moreno is what is normally used and not so much Negro. Maybe because in these societies being called "negro" is associated wtih slave status, and "moreno" with being Free. In the most African cultural manifestations of these countries too the music always mentions Moreno and Morena. The Congos of Villa Mella, Dominican Republic do so, the Congos of Panama do so, as do the Palenkeros of Colombia.
I dont think its all that different in Jamaica either and the english speaking carribean, because even though people self identify as black, there is still the same system of shades, and actually afromixed peoples are not self identified as black. Friends of mines who are Afroindegenous and AfroEuro tend to get classifeid as Red, Brownin, Chiney, and Coolie and never as black in Jamaica.
I think they're OK being proud with their African roots. After all that's what they are (partly). I prefer that to them saying they're Indios Aztecas and crap like some Chicano-wannabe boricua rapper whose name I can't remember.
.
Sure. So you are jelows somebody else identify with "yours" Indians? :whoco:
Anyways, the Puerto Ricans have the Tainos, don' they?
I don't have a problem with that. Although I admit SamPR trolling in the old forum and obsessing with every little black diaspora in America was really shitty. Like when he said Yanga (some minor Black character in Mexico history) should be worshipped more than Pancho Villa.
Well, that bothers me to. That pushing of an African identity, that it is enforced on top of the local identity, is simply cultural imperialism.
Many Cubans,Dominicans and Puerto Ricans also know they are from the Caribbean/West Indies.
Yes we definetly do, growing up in the Dominican Republic in the late 80s, early 90s, i rarely heard other "latin" american countries being mentioned anywhere. The only countries i knew growing up where, Haiti, Cuba, Puertorico and Jamaica. When i got to the U.S i had a HUGE culture shock seeing so many phenotypes of people speaking spanish, specially the overwhelmingly indegenous peoples of central america and mexico, and then even rarer was to see white Argentinians, Chileans speak spanish it was pretty interesting. I also had trouble understanding people from other spanish speaking countries at first.
I have to fully agree with you windie that we self identify as Carribean. I remember hearing Caribe, and Antillano (Antillean) all the time. Dominicans do NOT identify with any cultures, or people in Central-South America. Things might be changing now with the back migration of Pan-Latino minded Dominicans from the U.S. Some of my cousins screenames have the word carribean in it as well, there is a strong identification with the carribean sea and the islands around it. Although i would also say most dominicans are completly unaware of many of the smaller islands, with the exception of St. Martin, Str. Croix and Tortola because some Dominicans come from there.
Many Cubans,Dominicans and Puerto Ricans also know they are from the Caribbean/West Indies.
So? In our case we are South Americans, but don't expect we consider people of the Falklands, Suriname or French Guyana to be our same kind.
Decimator
2010-01-20, 00:50
Sure. So you are jelows somebody else identify with "yours" Indians? :whoco:
Anyways, the Puerto Ricans have the Tainos, don' they?
Well, that bothers me to. That pushing of an African identity, that it is enforced on top of the local identity, is simply cultural imperialism.
Ok, how would a Swede feel if I suddenly start identifying with Vikings?
How would a Lebanese feel if I suddenly start identifying with Phoenicians?
How would you feel if I suddenly start identifying with Indio Lautaro? :whoco:
Lautaro? Well, I would feel great. After all, every South American Liberator identified with Lautaro, and from Bolivar to San Martin, including Lord Cochrane, all of them were member of the irregular masonic war lodge named in his honour: the Lodge Lautaro
http://www.laguia2000.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/lautaro1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BMgj45eeyOE/SypMQ0m3mXI/AAAAAAAAAy0/d8K3S_Vr4mc/s400/Handheld.jpg
Yes, It would be a honour that you identify with Lautaro. The only Native American figure recorded in an epic poem.
Sanjub_Saraswati
2010-01-20, 01:07
Ok, how would a Swede feel if I suddenly start identifying with Vikings?
How would a Lebanese feel if I suddenly start identifying with Phoenicians?
How would you feel if I suddenly start identifying with Indio Lautaro? :whoco:
I'm sure they would get flattered.
Why does it bother you if carribean mestizos identify with central american ancients, if i may ask?
I think that sometimes the definitions of blackness in the spanish speaking carribean may be misunderstood. Many people think that Negro defines blackness in D.R for example, or in Puerto Rico. But we use the word Moreno, to signify African ancestry. I dont think the spanish carribean identifies necesarily less then the english speaking carribean with their African ancestry. Its just thats its a different way of expressing it, To Dominicans, Puertoricans, Non-Anglophone Afro-Panamanians, and Coastal Carribean Colombians the word Moreno is what is normally used and not so much Negro. Maybe because in these societies being called "negro" is associated wtih slave status, and "moreno" with being Free. In the most African cultural manifestations of these countries too the music always mentions Moreno and Morena. The Congos of Villa Mella, Dominican Republic do so, the Congos of Panama do so, as do the Palenkeros of Colombia.
I dont think its all that different in Jamaica either and the english speaking carribean, because even though people self identify as black, there is still the same system of shades, and actually afromixed peoples are not self identified as black. Friends of mines who are Afroindegenous and AfroEuro tend to get classifeid as Red, Brownin, Chiney, and Coolie and never as black in Jamaica.
I agree that people all over the Caribbean use all sorts of things to refer to their racial makeup and skin. I would say blacks all over the world.
Like you said I don't know if we should call it 'self hate' since many blacks in the new world and Africa would be self hating for using terms other than black-etc.
Self-identification
According to a study by the City University of New York Dominican Studies Institute, about 90 percent of the contemporary Dominican population has African ancestry or African roots. However, many Dominicans self-identify as being of mixed-race rather than "black" in contrast to African identity movements in other nations. Rather, a variety of terms are used to represent a range of skin tones. These include "morena" (brown), "india" (Indian), "blanca oscura" (dark white), and "trigueño" (wheat colored). Many have claimed that this represents a reluctance to self-identify with African descent and the culture of the freed slaves.
I seems that Dominicans identify more with skin tone than race. And It is a very mixed country.
According to Dr. Miguel Anibal Perdomo, professor of Dominican Identity and Literature at Hunter College in New York City, "There was a sense of 'deculturación' among the African slaves of Hispaniola. There was an attempt to erase any vestiges of African culture from the Dominican Republic. We were, in some way, brainwashed and we've become westernized." However, this view is not universal, as many also claim that Dominican culture is simply different and rejects the racial categorizations of other regions. Ramona Hernández, director of the Dominican Studies Institute at City College of New York, asserts that the terms were originally an act of defiance in a time when being mulatto was stigmatized. "During the Trujillo regime, people who were dark skinned were rejected, so they created their own mechanism to fight it." She went on to explain, "When you ask, 'What are you?' they don't give you the answer you want … saying we don't want to deal with our blackness is simply what you want to hear." The Dominican Republic is not unique in this respect either. In a 1976 census survey conducted in Brazil, respondents described their skin color in 136 distinct terms.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dominican_Republic
. But we use the word Moreno, to signify African ancestry.
Moreno in Spanish means brown, and not African. A brown is a person that have black hair and dark eyes, usually with light brown skin. A non-blond European is a moreno, as much as an Amerindian, an Arab, a Polynesian or a light Mulatto.
Well, at least that's the meaning in Spanish, outside the Caribbean. And the world Moreno comes from Moroccian
Decimator
2010-01-20, 01:20
I'm sure they would get flattered.
Why does it bother you if carribean mestizos identify with central american ancients, if i may ask?
First most of them aren't really Mestizos, not under my view.
It bothers you too when Shudras identify with Brahmins and things like that.
Second, it doesn't really bother me, but they have other things to identify with, like Africans. I don't see why that bothers Pinguin
Moreno in Spanish means brown, and not African. A brown is a person that have black hair and dark eyes, usually with light brown skin. A non-blond European is a moreno, as much as an Amerindian, an Arab, a Polynesian or a light Mulatto.
Well, at least that's the meaning in Spanish, outside the Caribbean. And the world Moreno comes from Moroccian
I won't answer this since its not what I typed.
I'm sure they would get flattered.
Why does it bother you if carribean mestizos identify with central american ancients, if i may ask?
I bet the reason is the following. Latin American countries are very nationalistic, and the Indians are part of the national identity. So if somebody identify with Aztecs, also identify with Mexico. If identifies with Tainos, they do with the Hispanic Caribbean. If they identify with Tupi they are saying Brazilian, etc.
This get so ridiculous that many times, particularly in sport, the reporters use the native tribes to identify the modern countries. Paraguayans are Guaranies, Uruguayan charruas, Mexicans are Aztecs and Puerto Rican Boricuas, etc.
Yes we definetly do, growing up in the Dominican Republic in the late 80s, early 90s, i rarely heard other "latin" american countries being mentioned anywhere. The only countries i knew growing up where, Haiti, Cuba, Puertorico and Jamaica. When i got to the U.S i had a HUGE culture shock seeing so many phenotypes of people speaking spanish, specially the overwhelmingly indegenous peoples of central america and mexico, and then even rarer was to see white Argentinians, Chileans speak spanish it was pretty interesting. I also had trouble understanding people from other spanish speaking countries at first.
I have to fully agree with you windie that we self identify as Carribean. I remember hearing Caribe, and Antillano (Antillean) all the time. Dominicans do NOT identify with any cultures, or people in Central-South America. Things might be changing now with the back migration of Pan-Latino minded Dominicans from the U.S. Some of my cousins screenames have the word carribean in it as well, there is a strong identification with the carribean sea and the islands around it. Although i would also say most dominicans are completly unaware of many of the smaller islands, with the exception of St. Martin, Str. Croix and Tortola because some Dominicans come from there.
COSIGN. Growing up in Virginia the only other spanish speakers I came acrosst were just a handful of Dominicans and Ricans. When i came to the west coast and saw Mexicans for the first time I was like, "these are hispanics?" That typical Mexican accent was very difficult for me to swallow, they sounded like they were talking real funny on purpose and nobody understood a damn thing I spoke, they was like "estas hablando en espanol, verdad?" and looked at me funny, many had never seen a Black dude speak spanish before. It definitely goes both ways.
....
Second, it doesn't really bother me, but they have other things to identify with, like Africans. I don't see why that bothers Pinguin
It doesn't bothers me that Hispanic Caribbean identify with Africa, that's fine. Except if they identify exclusively with Africa and only with Africa, forgetting the Hispanic and Indigenous heritage, that they have it too.
Dominicans are fine, they remember all theirs origins, and Puerto Ricans are of the same attitude. What I detest, though is the attitude of Cubans, that knowing they also have a Taino ancestry, they downplay it and make fun of it, and the only thing they care is about Africa.
This is from Dominican Republic. A song in Taino by Juan Luis Guerra. By the way, that musician is a very famous representative of Dominican "Afro" music.
wrketNvBwCQ
---------- Post added 2010-01-19 at 22:37 ----------
COSIGN. Growing up in Virginia the only other spanish speakers I came acrosst were just a handful of Dominicans and Ricans. When i came to the west coast and saw Mexicans for the first time I was like, "these are hispanics?" That typical Mexican accent was very difficult for me to swallow, they sounded like they were talking real funny on purpose and nobody understood a damn thing I spoke, they was like "estas hablando en espanol, verdad?" and looked at me funny, many had never seen a Black dude speak spanish before. It definitely goes both ways.
The first time a saw a full Black with a Spanish last name was really a shock for me. I was in Canada, and I was seen some baseball superstars with last names like "Rodriguez" and "Gomez", and they weren't mulatoes or "afro-descendents". They were Blacks. Later I found out they were Dominicans :ashamed:
Yes, there is a cultural shock between the Hispanic peoples of the mainland Americas and the Caribbean. I bet if some Caribbean visits a place like the Andes or Southern Mexico would suffer a shock, too. :(
What I detest, though is the attitude of Cubans, that knowing they also have a Taino ancestry, they downplay it and make fun of it, and the only thing they care is about Africa.
How do Cubans make fun of taino ancestry?
Cubans ignore theirs Taino heritage. Well, at least they are very educated people, most have no idea. I have talked with several Cuban in my life, and the pattern is the same.
Yes, they smoke cigars and ignore that the Tainos left that heritage. They may use guiros and maracas in theirs "afro-cuban" music and forget that is an heritage of the Tainos. They even ignore that there are still Indians in Cuba, and that such a character like Batista, the dictator that controlled cuba before Castro, looked more Amerindian than Sitting Bull.
Cubans ignore theirs Taino heritage. Well, at least they are very educated people, most have no idea. I have talked with several Cuban in my life, and the pattern is the same.
Yes, they smoke cigars and ignore that the Tainos left that heritage. They may use guiros and maracas in theirs "afro-cuban" music and forget that is an heritage of the Tainos. They even ignore that there are still Indians in Cuba, and that such a character like Batista, the dictator that controlled cuba before Castro, looked more Amerindian than Sitting Bull.
You said they make fun if it but you didn't explain how.
Cubans ignore theirs Taino heritage. Well, at least they are very educated people, most have no idea. I have talked with several Cuban in my life, and the pattern is the same.
Yes, they smoke cigars and ignore that the Tainos left that heritage. They may use guiros and maracas in theirs "afro-cuban" music and forget that is an heritage of the Tainos. They even ignore that there are still Indians in Cuba, and that such a character like Batista, the dictator that controlled cuba before Castro, looked more Amerindian than Sitting Bull.
They don't ignore it, they simply don't see any need to emphasize it. And why would they? What exactly have the Tainos done, at all? And what are their real contributions to Cuban society today, apart from a few instruments and words that are at best, questionably Taino? And I've never heard of them mocking it; that would be giving them too much attention and acknowledgement for being so insignificant. They aren't even of sizable influence in Cuba, or any of the Caribbean for that matter except maybe Aruba. Them celebrating Taino ancestry is the same as Mexico celebrating their Black ancestry; it's minimal at best and unrepresentative of their society as a whole, regardless of if it's there in miniscule amounts. Hell, Mexico's 1st president was Afro-Mexican, but tell a Mexican that he's triracial and he'll probably get confrontational.
Dominicans over-emphasize their Taino ancestry because of the havoc Trujillo wreaked in the DR politically and culturally, apart from the country's long and bitter history with it's neighbor Haiti. He literally burned history books en masse and re-wrote his own fairy tale about how Tainos survived in great numbers and account for Dominicans' dark skin. And that's not the worst part; my grandfather told me many stories before he died about how he was on the run on account of Trujillo sending men door to door to execute any person he deemed "too Black" or "too Haitian," giving Dominicans a very good reason to deny any Black ancestry. That's why you see carbon-Black Dominicans swearing they're "indio quemao" still today; they were basically fooled and terrorized into celebrating their Taino roots as if it was significant for the Dominican citizen today, which it truly isn't. I mean, acknowledging that Tainos lived on the island before them is alright, and recognizing that Taino blood is spread very thin among some regions of the country (i.e. Cibao) today is cool too. But giving it equal, or worse yet, even greater emphasis than their overwhelming African ancestry and culture is where it gets ridiculous, especially when less than 1 out of 5 of contemporary Dominicans even has Taino ancestry at all. Only recently was an African statue added alongside the Spaniard and the Taino ones in the country's major historical center.
Nephilim
2010-01-20, 06:12
Very intersting and informative thread, are the Tainos related to the Caribs and Arawaks? Do they exist in their pure form or have they intermixed with Europeans and Africans? I heard the Tainos, Caribs, and Arawaks were exterminated and assimlated into the new Black population, and some went into the European population.
Cubans ignore theirs Taino heritage. Well, at least they are very educated people, most have no idea. I have talked with several Cuban in my life, and the pattern is the same.
Yes, they smoke cigars and ignore that the Tainos left that heritage. They may use guiros and maracas in theirs "afro-cuban" music and forget that is an heritage of the Tainos. They even ignore that there are still Indians in Cuba, and that such a character like Batista, the dictator that controlled Cuba before Castro, looked more Amerindian than Sitting Bull.Out of all Latin America Cuba has the least Amerindian influence in it's culture, and overall genetics/phenotype of the people (even compared to the DR). Most of the Arawaks that weren't massacred assimilated and their genes became overwhelmingly diluted through miscegenation with Africans and Europeans. Those who were able to retain parts of their culture, are few, and generally live in the mountainous regions of the Oriente. These people aren't Indians though, they're Mestizos, Zambos, or triracials: like Batista.. earlier you said that one should acknowledge all aspects of their culture/ethnicity, so you can't just brand them as Indians when the majority of them are greatly mixed (you can tell just by looking at their phenotypes) and Hispanized/Cubanized.
With all that being said, the average Cuban DOES know the history of Cuba and the Tainos/Arawaks.. we learn about them in junior school. We have reenactments of their encounters with the Spaniards, learn about their way of living, and sing choir songs about them even. It's common to refer to ourselves as children of Ciboney and one of the most famous Cuban songs references that title. We incorporate them into the "pantheon" of some Afro-Cuban folk religions. The government even funded the reconstruction of more than one Taino village in the Oriente. So for a people who have very little relativity to the culture and ancestry of Cuba; I'd say we pay them enough respect.
It's true though, the average Cuban probably doesn't give a damn about them and their contribution. Which is understandable, when they have very little to do with post-Columbian Cuba.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 01:49 ----------
Very intersting and informative thread, are the Tainos related to the Caribs and Arawaks? Do they exist in their pure form or have they intermixed with Europeans and Africans? I heard the Tainos, Caribs, and Arawaks were exterminated and assimlated into the new Black population, and some went into the European population.The Tainos were a branch of the Arawaks. They were predominate in the G. Antilles.. and no, there are no full-blooded Tainos left. However, their genetic contribution can be seen in the populations of the G. Antilles -- it varies from country to country though. Out of the Spanish Caribbean their contribution is only significant in Puerto Rico.
Decimator
2010-01-20, 08:32
They don't ignore it, they simply don't see any need to emphasize it. And why would they? What exactly have the Tainos done, at all? And what are their real contributions to Cuban society today, apart from a few instruments and words that are at best, questionably Taino? And I've never heard of them mocking it; that would be giving them too much attention and acknowledgement for being so insignificant. They aren't even of sizable influence in Cuba, or any of the Caribbean for that matter except maybe Aruba. Them celebrating Taino ancestry is the same as Mexico celebrating their Black ancestry; it's minimal at best and unrepresentative of their society as a whole, regardless of if it's there in miniscule amounts. Hell, Mexico's 1st president was Afro-Mexican, but tell a Mexican that he's triracial and he'll probably get confrontational.
Dominicans over-emphasize their Taino ancestry because of the havoc Trujillo wreaked in the DR politically and culturally, apart from the country's long and bitter history with it's neighbor Haiti. He literally burned history books en masse and re-wrote his own fairy tale about how Tainos survived in great numbers and account for Dominicans' dark skin. And that's not the worst part; my grandfather told me many stories before he died about how he was on the run on account of Trujillo sending men door to door to execute any person he deemed "too Black" or "too Haitian," giving Dominicans a very good reason to deny any Black ancestry. That's why you see carbon-Black Dominicans swearing they're "indio quemao" still today; they were basically fooled and terrorized into celebrating their Taino roots as if it was significant for the Dominican citizen today, which it truly isn't. I mean, acknowledging that Tainos lived on the island before them is alright, and recognizing that Taino blood is spread very thin among some regions of the country (i.e. Cibao) today is cool too. But giving it equal, or worse yet, even greater emphasis than their overwhelming African ancestry and culture is where it gets ridiculous, especially when less than 1 out of 5 of contemporary Dominicans even has Taino ancestry at all. Only recently was an African statue added alongside the Spaniard and the Taino ones in the country's major historical center.
People in Mexico recognize there's a few black Mexicans. Some famous football players are Black. Felipe Baloy, Giovanni dos Santos, Melvin Brown, Kalimba, etc... But they're really just a few in comparision with the overall population. If you take a Bus in Mexico, you'll never see a Black featured person, maybe only one in 100 times.
However Mexicans in the United States for some reasons seem to de-emphatize it a lot claiming all are of Indigenous or Mestizo ancestry.
And officially, the first head of state of Mexico wasn't Vicente Guerrero (whom hailed from Guerrero, named after him; which has Afro-Mexicans in the coast) but the second one (Third, if you count Iturbide, which was a militar that defeated the Spaniards and then proclaimed himself as Monarch of Mexico). The first one when Iturbide was overthrown and the Mexican republic was consolidated, was Guadalupe Victoria.
This is him:
http://masalto.com/masalto_db/imagenes_db/Oque/guadalupe_victoria_realista.JPG
However, there's not much account in the background of Mexico early presidents, only paintings of that Epoch depicting them. This is Guerrero, according to Ramón Sagredo (a Mexican painter from 1800 who portraited several presidents):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Vicente_Guerrero_by_Ramon_Sagredo.jpg
Very intersting and informative thread, are the Tainos related to the Caribs and Arawaks? Do they exist in their pure form or have they intermixed with Europeans and Africans? I heard the Tainos, Caribs, and Arawaks were exterminated and assimlated into the new Black population, and some went into the European population.
The Taino population as such doesn't exist anymore. What exist are Taino descendents. Genetic studies has shown that a large fraction of the Puerto Rican and Dominican Republic mtDNA genetics is Amerindian, and very likely Taino.
There are Caribs in the Caribbean, with admixture, though. There are also small groups of people in Puerto Rico, Cuba and D.R. that descend directly from Tainos.
Curiously, most of the Amerindians of the Americas assimilated more into the WHITE population rather than in the Black. The reason were obvious. The guys that have the lack of females were the Whites.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 08:55 ----------
Out of all Latin America Cuba has the least Amerindian influence in it's culture, and overall genetics/phenotype of the people (even compared to the DR). Most of the Arawaks that weren't massacred assimilated and their genes became overwhelmingly diluted through miscegenation with Africans and Europeans. Those who were able to retain parts of their culture, are few, and generally live in the mountainous regions of the Oriente. These people aren't Indians though, they're Mestizos, Zambos, or triracials: like Batista.. earlier you said that one should acknowledge all aspects of their culture/ethnicity, so you can't just brand them as Indians when the majority of them are greatly mixed (you can tell just by looking at their phenotypes) and Hispanized/Cubanized.
.
Yes. They are mixed, as most people of the Americas.
With all that being said, the average Cuban DOES know the history of Cuba and the Tainos/Arawaks.. we learn about them in junior school. We have reenactments of their encounters with the Spaniards, learn about their way of living, and sing choir songs about them even. It's common to refer to ourselves as children of Ciboney and one of the most famous Cuban songs references that title. We incorporate them into the "pantheon" of some Afro-Cuban folk religions. The government even funded the reconstruction of more than one Taino village in the Oriente. So for a people who have very little relativity to the culture and ancestry of Cuba; I'd say we pay them enough respect.
.
Fair enough, but what about the identity? Nothing.
It's true though, the average Cuban probably doesn't give a damn about them and their contribution. Which is understandable, when they have very little to do with post-Columbian Cuba.
.
Yes, Cuba looks to Africa. The rest of Hispanic America look to the Americas and its American Indians as its origin. In a real sense, Cuba is more similar to Haiti in mentality and foundation myth than Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico, or the rest of Hispanic America.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 08:59 ----------
They don't ignore it, they simply don't see any need to emphasize it. And why would they? What exactly have the Tainos done, at all? And what are their real contributions to Cuban society today, apart from a few instruments and words that are at best, questionably Taino? And I've never heard of them mocking it; that would be giving them too much attention and acknowledgement for being so insignificant. They aren't even of sizable influence in Cuba, or any of the Caribbean for that matter except maybe Aruba. Them celebrating Taino ancestry is the same as Mexico celebrating their Black ancestry; it's minimal at best and unrepresentative of their society as a whole, regardless of if it's there in miniscule amounts. Hell, Mexico's 1st president was Afro-Mexican, but tell a Mexican that he's triracial and he'll probably get confrontational.
No. It is not the same. Europeans and Africans are alliens to the Americas. Accepted, yes. But alliens, anyways. The roots of any American COUNTRY lays in its indigenous past; not in the Christian European traditions or in the Folk Nigerian religion.
Dominicans over-emphasize their Taino ancestry because of the havoc Trujillo wreaked in the DR politically and culturally, apart from the country's long and bitter history with it's neighbor Haiti. He literally burned history books en masse and re-wrote his own fairy tale about how Tainos survived in great numbers and account for Dominicans' dark skin. And that's not the worst part; my grandfather told me many stories before he died about how he was on the run on account of Trujillo sending men door to door to execute any person he deemed "too Black" or "too Haitian," giving Dominicans a very good reason to deny any Black ancestry. That's why you see carbon-Black Dominicans swearing they're "indio quemao" still today; they were basically fooled and terrorized into celebrating their Taino roots as if it was significant for the Dominican citizen today, which it truly isn't. I mean, acknowledging that Tainos lived on the island before them is alright, and recognizing that Taino blood is spread very thin among some regions of the country (i.e. Cibao) today is cool too. But giving it equal, or worse yet, even greater emphasis than their overwhelming African ancestry and culture is where it gets ridiculous, especially when less than 1 out of 5 of contemporary Dominicans even has Taino ancestry at all. Only recently was an African statue added alongside the Spaniard and the Taino ones in the country's major historical center.
Black, black, black. That's all that you care.
What's wrong with the fact that the mulato country of Dominican Republic recognize theirs Amerindian ancestors, too?
What's wrong with the fact that the mulato country of Dominican Republic recognize theirs Amerindian ancestors, too?
Then that would make them a Tri-racial country.
Also some Haitian mixed race people hate being called ''mulatto'' and will let you know. They prefer mestiz ,grimelle etc.
Since Puerto Ricans are the most americanized latinos, yeah, probably.
I'd say that outwardly, yes. PR on the other hand (especially recently) is very proud of their African roots2 out of 3 young Ricans in NY wears corn rows, etc, and no other Latino group in America does that (xcept Dominicans who become Americanized, go figure)
I don't know where you get your statistic regarding corn row hair styles by PR's in NY, I can only make the assumption that you mean it's common. I don't see how that has anything to do with being proud of ones 'African roots', this is more directly tied to urban American Hip-Hop influence. It's a fashion trend that came out of inner city America. The wearing of braided hairstyles is seen as 'cafre' by many PR's on the island and 'chopo' by DR's on the island because its percieved as ghetto. This has nothing to do with race/color but socioeconomic class.
This doesn't mean it's not used on the islands either, anyone here can tune into Dominican TV and see it's quite popular among the people and different artists so I can only assume that you don't have access to Dominican television.
To further illustrate my point, the wearing of braided type hair styles was also seen the same way by Haitians even up to the days of Baby Doc and early Aristide years as 'ghetto American' influence. It was only after being exposed to more American urban culture that it's also become more common in Haiti. Feel free to verify this with any older Haitians. '
while the DR has a complex that systematically attempts to belittle or even deny African ancestry.
While I'm not one to try to belittle my fellow Caribbean islanders or make it a pissing contest, I find it strange that you make this statement considering the following:
-Puerto Rico's census indicates that the population got 'whiter' with no evidence of any influx of European/white immigration. Is PR almost identical to Uruguay?
-The article above makes it seem as if this is a relatively recent phenomenon. Yet DR's museum of the Dominican man already has had an area dedicated to each of our roots, which includes the African component. Right outside of the museum are 3 statues, one of which is the African warrior Lemba.
-And then you have UNESCO proclaiming Los Congos de Villa Mella & Guloyas a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. Both are clear examples of African heritage.
This being said, I still wouldn't put one over the other. But niether will I dismiss or distort DR.
I have to fully agree with you windie that we self identify as Carribean. I remember hearing Caribe, and Antillano (Antillean) all the time. Dominicans do NOT identify with any cultures, or people in Central-South America. Things might be changing now with the back migration of Pan-Latino minded Dominicans from the U.S. Some of my cousins screenames have the word carribean in it as well, there is a strong identification with the carribean sea and the islands around it. Although i would also say most dominicans are completly unaware of many of the smaller islands, with the exception of St. Martin, Str. Croix and Tortola because some Dominicans come from there.
Interesting...Many people in the U.S. who are not Dominican assume that Dominicans (and other Spanish-speaking Caribbeans) do not identify as Caribbean.
I agree, although I don't have any problem with Dominicans acknowledging their African,European and Amerindian ancestry. I think it becomes sad when dark skinned people like Sammy Sosa whiten their skin. Or when black Dominicans call themselves burnt Indian to avoid their blackness. I notice how Puerto Ricans took on to music like Reggaeton which was created right in the Caribbean and Costal Caribbean area.
This is truly sad. 'windie' has been on many previous Anthro. forums, and yet despite everything that she has been presented with, she still repeats the same distorted and/or false lines over and over despite clear evidence that debunk her perceptions.
I don't personally know anything about you, but strictly from your post I get the impression your exposure in the real world to PR's & DR's are either non-existant, limited or extremely superficial. I'll leave you with 2 things to ponder on:
-Reggaeton was born on PR, but do you know Dominicans in PR were heavily involved in this muscial genre? If you understood Spanish you would hear how often DR gets acknowledged or shout outs from the very beginning. Not to mention influences from Bachata & Merengue (among other LatinAmerican genres). As well as collaborations between PR & DR artist.
-Sammy aka 'Corky' Sosa went right on Spanish television and was asked point blank about his blackness. He is proud of being black and doesn't deny it, this came straight from his mouth. Can you provide a source where he says he's 'burnt indian'?
And if 'black' Dominicans call themselves burnt indians, why is the word negro used in DR? Why do Dominican cedulas have an N for negro on them? I doubt you will be able to answer any of this, and no doubt 10 years from now I'll keep reading the same thing in your posts. I come to Anthro. boards to learn what I can, not to falsify/denigrate/distort or parrot misinformation.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 16:59 ----------
Interesting...Many people in the U.S. who are not Dominican assume that Dominicans (and other Spanish-speaking Caribbeans) do not identify as Caribbean.
g-man is in the house! Good to see someone with the scholarly/clinical approach on these forum which always attract extremist of all sorts.
Let me expand on Lemba's post (with whom I don't see eye to eye on many things):
-There is a Caribeno/Antillano identity among Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and Cubans.
-I would add that this Caribeno/Antillano identiy culutral sphere also extends to Panama, Colombia & Venezuela (from their songs to the people that border the Caribbean)
-It is a regional identity, much like Central & South America.
-Central & South Americans will often group us as 'Caribenos'. Same way we often say 'they're Central or South Americans'.
-This Caribbean identity is within the broader LatinAmerican context, it doesn't include non-Spanish speaking islands or countries.
For example, if in the US they hold a 'Caribbean festival', it will mean people from Jamaica, T &T, etc.
If LatinAmericans hold 'una fiesta Caribena', it means PR, DR, Cuba, etc.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 17:11 ----------
There are political, historical and cultural reasons for this.
Cuba was both a settler colony, like your homeland, and a plantation colony, like Haiti or Jamaica. Hence, it has both strong African and Iberian influences. Strengthening ties with Africa and nurturing Afro-Cuban culture have been priorities of the communist government there.
African languages are still spoken in Cuba BTW.
In my opinion, these are the reasons for this perception:
-African influenced elements in Cuba are arguably the strongest out of all LatinAmerica. It would be a close one to call between Haiti, Brazil & Cuba.
This is due to many ethnohistorical factors and the way race relations evolved in Cuba.
-In addition to this, Castro has actively promoted this image. Cuban armies have been involved in African conflicts. I just had a Nigerian client tell me that Cuba has a good image in Nigeria, I was very surprised on how much they seem to know of Cuba. Castro also has courted the African American community. Please note that this doesn't mean that they don't know all the negatives of Castro's regime, some are aware of this fact.
-But in reality, and I think g-man knows this, this perception is independent of the realities of Cuban race relations.
-Puerto Rico's census indicates that the population got 'whiter' with no evidence of any influx of European/white immigration. Is PR almost identical to Uruguay?
? But there was an influx of European/Near Eastern immigrants to Puerto Rico and Cuba in the last two centuries, more so the latter, and it was pretty significant since they were Spain's last two colonies in Latin America..
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
I don't know where you get your statistic regarding corn row hair styles by PR's in NY, I can only make the assumption that you mean it's common. I don't see how that has anything to do with being proud of ones 'African roots', this is more directly tied to urban American Hip-Hop influence. It's a fashion trend that came out of inner city America. The wearing of braided hairstyles is seen as 'cafre' by many PR's on the island and 'chopo' by DR's on the island because its percieved as ghetto. This has nothing to do with race/color but socioeconomic class.
This doesn't mean it's not used on the islands either, anyone here can tune into Dominican TV and see it's quite popular among the people and different artists so I can only assume that you don't have access to Dominican television.
Yeah it was just an estimate from what I saw in NY. I've been to la Republica many, many times, and of course hella Dominicans wear corn rows, I'm one myself. Nobody asserted otherwise bruh, come on now :rolleyes: What I was saying is that it's much more widespread among Rican Americans than Dominican Americans. But its not very relevant to compare Americanized Caribbeans with islanders, because as you should know, there's a massive culture clash between the two. Of course on the island corn rows is gonna be seen as chopo and low class; Blackness in general is seen as an indicator such, and when a Black Dominican becomes rich and successful he earns the honorary White status (unless hes a rapero).
To further illustrate my point, the wearing of braided type hair styles was also seen the same way by Haitians even up to the days of Baby Doc and early Aristide years as 'ghetto American' influence. It was only after being exposed to more American urban culture that it's also become more common in Haiti. Feel free to verify this with any older Haitians.
Pero bamono Antillano, don't try to tell an African-Americanized Dominican about corn rows. To quote my dude T.I., "What chu know about dat? See, I know all about dat." Corn rows really has nothing to do with "ghetto culture," in America or otherwise, and anybody who asserts otherwise really doesn't know what they're talking about. In case you didn't realize, the wearing of corn is not tied to the early 90's with the dawn of Hip Hop culture (itself a spawn of Black American culture, and originally Black Pride-esque regardless of its currently bastardized form), but instead in the 60's to the "Black is Beautiful" / Black Nationalist movements. Those Haitians you mentioned were infleunced by American Black culture, not American ghetto culture, of which there is a HUGE difference. Now, don't get me wrong, I've seen my fair share of tryhards, those wannabe-gangsta non-Blacks (mainly Whites, Mexicans and even some damn Filipinos) who dress in the whole ghetto attire and get the corn rows as well just because rappers get them, thinking they're making themselves "more ghetto" when in reality they're just making fools out of themselves for proclaiming pride in something that has nothing to do with them.
A Dominican-American who embraces a Black identity will get corn rows, and the Dominican who suffers under the delusion that he's White or not Afro-Hispanic will slosh on glopfuls of gel to get it curly in the least Black-looking way he can possibly get it. Don't even get me started on the delusion of "good hair" (straight) vs "bad hair" (typical Black-descendant hair).
While I'm not one to try to belittle my fellow Caribbean islanders or make it a pissing contest, I find it strange that you make this statement considering the following:
-Puerto Rico's census indicates that the population got 'whiter' with no evidence of any influx of European/white immigration. Is PR almost identical to Uruguay?
I find it strange that you would bring this up out of nowehere. Did I mention PR race denial in that post at all, much less assert that the DR was the only country with this complex? Of course PR would suffer from a similar syndrome, any country with a history of white colonialism will to some extent. But DR's diagnosis is a particularly severe case, where DNA tests suggest over 90% of Dominicans having SSA ancestry to varying degrees (the rest being immigrants), yet by self identification not much more 10% of the country is Black. See what I'm sayin?
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 11:49 ----------
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
So then Jamaica or Trinidad isn't a Black culture? I assume neither is African-American culture. The only real difference between them as related to race is that their slavemasters spoke English instead of Spanish. They have Amerind and European ancestors and cultural influences too, yet they are considered a New World Black culture. Cuban culture is considered an Afro-hispanic one, as is Dominican, whether they like it or not. Afro in this case = Black, it's not all that complicated. See, I think you're confused again. I don't have a problem with them identifying with their white ancestors as well as their Black ones. I'll let them be mulattoes, quadroons whatever the fuck, they don't have to be "just Black." The problem is when they turn to phantom Taino ancestors for their identity instead of the more obvious component.
Then that would make them a Tri-racial country.
....
Still don't get it? The problem is not race, but culture.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-20, 19:53
A Dominican-American who embraces a Black identity will get corn rows, and the Dominican who suffers under the delusion that he's White or not Afro-Hispanic will slosh on glopfuls of gel to get it curly in the least Black-looking way he can possibly get it. Don't even get me started on the delusion of "good hair" (straight) vs "bad hair" (typical Black-descendant hair).
But DR's diagnosis is a particularly severe case, where DNA tests suggest over 90% of Dominicans having SSA ancestry to varying degrees (the rest being immigrants), yet by self identification only 10% of the country is Black. See what I'm sayin?
Why would that be a "delusion"? There are many White or at least White appearing Dominicans. While a minority, compared to the multi-racial majority, they exist.
Should the 1/3 of White Americans who posses varying degrees of SSA admixture claim themselves as "black"?
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 14:57 ----------
I assume neither is African-American culture. The only real difference between them as related to race is that their slavemasters spoke English instead of Spanish. They have Amerind and European ancestors and cultural influences too, yet they are considered a New World Black culture.
Cuban culture is considered an Afro-hispanic one, as is Dominican, whether they like it or not. Afro in this case = Black, it's not all that complicated.
African-American retained the least amount of African influence out of all African diaspora cultures but African-American scholars are the most obsessed with it and like to project it onto foreign cultures (i.e. Hispanics).
I think cherry picking one out of the 3 is a little absurd.
? But there was an influx of European/Near Eastern immigrants to Puerto Rico and Cuba in the last two centuries, more so the latter, and it was pretty significant since they were Spain's last two colonies in Latin America..
Indeed there was Lalo, I am very aware of this. But this is not what I'm referring to. Let me also clarify that I specifically mention PR, not Cuba and I invite you to take a look at this document:
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/demsem/loveman-muniz.pdf
Anyone who has travelled to PR or lives among them here in the USA will note the discrepancey between the reality and what the census records state.
I'm making no judgement on Puerto Ricans about this. Genetic studies indicate that Puerto Ricans are mostly tri-racial with the European component dominating.
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
I will answer this, since I created the thread.
I don't want Latin Americans to fully subscribe to 'ghetto culture''. And its not why I made this topic. (for those wondering). Latin America has its own African culture without the ''black influence'' in case you don't know.
Don Omar is Puerto Rican and has black ancestry I don't see this as ghetto:
http://www.johnjosephadams.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/donomar1.jpg
Puerto Rican European ancestry:I wouldn't expect him to have braids.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PaEsRWE5L.jpg
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
That's the same thing I wonder
Why would that be a "delusion"? There are many White or at least White appearing Dominicans. While a minority, compared to the multi-racial majority, they exist.
Should the 1/3 of White Americans who posses varying degrees of SSA admixture claim themselves as "black"?
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 14:57 ----------
African-American retained the least amount of African influence out of all African diaspora cultures but African-American scholars are the most obsessed with it and like to project it onto foreign cultures (i.e. Hispanics).
I think cherry picking one out of the 3 is a little absurd.
What windie said.
I'm referring to the average Dominican, which we both know is either mulatto or mostly Black. The white ones are obviously white, but this delusion is held by the clearly mulatto ones. There are many more clear-as-day mulatto Dominicans that claim white, than actual white Dominicans.
The 1/3 can claim it if they want to, its none of my business. Some of them do, like Wentworth Miller, Walter White, etc. But these cases are not the rule but the exception among Dominicans, and I won't force an obviously white Dominican to claim a black identity regardless of the fact that his culture is very African.
Cherry picking isn't necessary, but in all reality, if you look like this: http://garbaez.com/larotondamusical/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/vakero1.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9449/dsc3673copyos6.jpg
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z128/leydi05/1407714839_l.jpg
You should identify as Black, like they do, not as an "indio quemado." And if you're white, identify as white. Thing is the vast majority of Dominicans are clearly Black, so they should identify as such. It aint for nothing that Americans think Dominicans are all weird as fuck and very confused, looking Negroid and claiming White or Indian.
I will answer this, since I created the thread.
I don't want Latin Americans to fully subscribe to 'ghetto culture''. And its not why I made this topic. (for those wondering). Latin America has its own African culture without the ''black influence'' in case you don't know.
Don Omar is Puerto Rican and has black ancestry I don't see this as ghetto:
Puerto Rican European ancestry:I wouldn't expect him to have braids.
I wouldn't say that Latin America has an "African" culture. That's not precisely what is there. What exist is a culture of the Hispanic Caribbean countries that incorporates some elements comming from Africa, such as drums, rythms and certain beliefs. But that's not make them more African than reading mangas or practising judo could convert an American kid in Japanese.
The predominant culture in the Hispanic Caribbean is, of course, Hispanic, with elements of Africa, Amerindian, Asian and other cultures, too.
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
Trog, these types of forums always attract a segment of posters that are 'race warriors'. During the last couple of years, Afrocentric types have become almost obsessed with blackness in LatinAmerica (online). You will often see the following formulas repeated over and over again:
-They will dissect and inspect with utmost details who's black, how black, who's not representing blackness properly, who's denying it, etc.
-Despite the fact that LatinAmerican societies are characterized by how mixed they are, and this includes their unique cultures, these race warrior have a tendency to denigrate, insult and dismiss any other non-African influence. In particular anything that reeks of Europe.
-Anyone who disagrees with this is either diagnosed with 'self-hate' or wanting to be white or Eurocentric, etc.
This despite the fact that the European influence is the dominate one, doesn't mean it's the only one.
So what we have is an online discussion fueled more by racialist idealogy/agendas, projections of the posters own insecurities, not scholarly interest.
....
African-American retained the least amount of African influence out of all African diaspora cultures but African-American scholars are the most obsessed with it and like to project it onto foreign cultures (i.e. Hispanics).
I think cherry picking one out of the 3 is a little absurd.
It seems Dominicas are the main target, unfortunately.
I wouldn't say that Latin America has an "African" culture. That's not precisely what is there. What exist is a culture of the Hispanic Caribbean countries that incorporates some elements comming from Africa, such as drums, rythms and certain beliefs. But that's not make them more African than reading mangas or practising judo could convert an American kid in Japanese.
The predominant culture in the Hispanic Caribbean is, of course, Hispanic, with elements of Africa, Amerindian, Asian and other cultures, too.
I meant to say African influence.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-20, 20:20
It seems Dominicas are the main target, unfortunately.
Oh most definitely. Despite our society being the most MIXED hands down and the fact that chattel slavery never developed in Santo Domingo and disintegrated into a cattle ranching society we are seen as the self-loathers. Meanwhile Cuban society has had race based social centers and a clear distinction between black and White. Like mentioned about PR, Cuba somehow also got Whiter despite immigration stopping (or slowing) after independence and the defection of many Whites to Florida after Castro (and black coming from Haiti for example).
As far as culture, we also have a highly Hispanic culture (forced by past regimes). While tiny fragments of the population may practice Voodoo, we have no Africanized religion like PR or Cuba (Santeria). Areas like El Cibao (the interior of the North) also exhibit more Euro/Amerind culture than the rest of the country.
A Dominican-American who embraces a Black identity will get corn rows, and the Dominican who suffers under the delusion that he's White or not Afro-Hispanic will slosh on glopfuls of gel to get it curly in the least Black-looking way he can possibly get it. Don't even get me started on the delusion of "good hair" (straight) vs "bad hair" (typical Black-descendant hair).
So you're essiantially saying only Dominicans who wear corn rolls embrace a black identity, all those who don't are not embracing it. And Dominicans who wear hair gel are attempting to look white. I have nothing to add to this, this is beyond ridiculous.
Trog, these types of forums always attract a segment of posters that are 'race warriors'. During the last couple of years, Afrocentric types have become almost obsessed with blackness in LatinAmerica (online). You will often see the following formulas repeated over and over again:
-They will dissect and inspect with utmost details who's black, how black, who's not representing blackness properly, who's denying it, etc.
-Despite the fact that LatinAmerican societies are characterized by how mixed they are, and this includes their unique cultures, these race warrior have a tendency to denigrate, insult and dismiss any other non-African influence. In particular anything that reeks of Europe.
-Anyone who disagrees with this is either diagnosed with 'self-hate' or wanting to be white or Eurocentric, etc.
This despite the fact that the European influence is the dominate one, doesn't mean it's the only one.
So what we have is an online discussion fueled more by racialist idealogy/agendas, projections of the posters own insecurities, not scholarly interest.
So what do you think of what I say then, coming from a Dominican myself. There are many more progressive-minded Dominicans such as myself these days, trust me. We're about factuality and reasonability, not dismissing anything non-Black. I for one embrace European heritage, why not? It's clearly there, and especially in my case, and it's something to be proud of. What makes me sick is when Dominicans obsess over fairy tale Tainos.
So then Jamaica or Trinidad isn't a Black culture? I assume neither is African-American culture. The only real difference between them as related to race is that their slavemasters spoke English instead of Spanish. They have Amerind and European ancestors and cultural influences too, yet they are considered a New World Black culture. Cuban culture is considered an Afro-hispanic one, as is Dominican, whether they like it or not. Afro in this case = Black, it's not all that complicated. See, I think you're confused again. I don't have a problem with them identifying with their white ancestors as well as their Black ones. I'll let them be mulattoes, quadroons whatever the fuck, they don't have to be "just Black." The problem is when they turn to phantom Taino ancestors for their identity instead of the more obvious component.
Look you, it's very simple. A Puerto Rican has a right to identify with every other Latin American, not every other black. Some speculative "black" history does not unite them as a culture or people, indeed, if anything it serves to divide Latin Americans, as noted by your reliance on those bizarre terms that supposedly measures the degree of blackness.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 20:28 ----------
So what do you think of what I say then, coming from a Dominican myself. There are many more progressive-minded Dominicans such as myself these days, trust me. We're about factuality and reasonability, not dismissing anything non-Black. I for one embrace European heritage, why not? It's clearly there, and especially in my case, and it's something to be proud of. What makes me sick is when Dominicans obsess over fairy tale Tainos.
You can't speak Spanish, right?
So you're essiantially saying only Dominicans who wear corn rolls embrace a black identity, all those who don't are not embracing it. And Dominicans who wear hair gel are attempting to look white. I have nothing to add to this, this is beyond ridiculous.
No, you're trying to extremize my posts. Trust me, Dominicans are the extremists, I deal with reality. What I'm saying is that Dominicans with braids embrace blackness. And dominicans who don't embrace blackness don't, they gel it. You're twisting my words the other way around.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-20, 20:32
So what do you think of what I say then, coming from a Dominican myself. There are many more progressive-minded Dominicans such as myself these days, trust me. We're about factuality and reasonability, not dismissing anything non-Black. I for one embrace European heritage, why not? It's clearly there, and especially in my case, and it's something to be proud of. What makes me sick is when Dominicans obsess over fairy tale Tainos.
I think being raised outside of our culture alters your perception of us greatly, especially if one potentially doesn't identify first and foremost as Dominican.
While not ALL Dominicans posses Taino genetics, the regions where my family come from you can find people who look 30% or more Taino.
... What makes me sick is when Dominicans obsess over fairy tale Tainos.
Why do you get so sick? Because Haitians don't have a single drop of Indian? :whoco:
Isn't that just envy?
Well, the problems is that Dominicans do have Amerindian heritage, both culturally and genetically. And also, they identify with theirs Amerindian past, and that something great for people who live in the Americas.
You should identify as Black, like they do, not as an "indio quemado." And if you're white, identify as white. Thing is the vast majority of Dominicans are clearly Black, so they should identify as such. It aint for nothing that Americans think Dominicans are all weird as fuck and very confused, looking Negroid and claiming White or Indian.
1) The vast majority of Dominicans are mixed.
2) I live and was raised around Americans, none see me as 'black' and I'm not black or white in DR. On my cedula it says indio (mixed) and I am typical.
3) If they're looking 'negroid', which according to you are the majority, than who are those that are claiming black in DR? Like for example Johnny ventura.
4) I have plenty of African American friends, this perception is limited to the online world inhabitated by race obsessed Afrocentrics.
Give me a very real example of someone who looks like David Ortiz and claims being 'indio' or 'white'.
Look you, it's very simple. A Puerto Rican has a right to identify with every other Latin American, not every other black. Some speculative "black" history does not unite them as a culture or people, indeed, if anything it serves to divide Latin Americans, as noted by your reliance on those bizarre terms that supposedly measures the degree of blackness.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 20:28 ----------
You can't speak Spanish, right?
No no no, I speak spanish fluently. And of course they have that right, but its not really justifiable to solely identify with a group that has nothing to do with you based on language, which is where the real connection is. Latin America isn't called such because of some kind of commonly shared culture. Instead it's called such because they all speak spanish. DR and Cuba's culture is much more similar to Haiti, a self-identifying Black country with the same exact cultural influences (albeit in slightly different proportions), than with say, Mexico or Peru. No need then to identify with some kind of pan-Latin American identity, when there's no such thing. There's just no congruence with them.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 12:36 ----------
Why do you get so sick? Because Haitians don't have a single drop of Indian? :whoco:
Isn't that just envy?
Well, the problems is that Dominicans do have Amerindian heritage, both culturally and genetically. And also, they identify with theirs Amerindian past, and that something great for people who live in the Americas.
Retard, I'm not Haitian. I'm Dominican. And I might have Taino ancestors, so envy definitely isn't there. Shame, if anything.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 12:38 ----------
1) The vast majority of Dominicans are mixed.
2) I live and was raised around Americans, none see me as 'black' and I'm not black or white in DR. On my cedula it says indio (mixed) and I am typical.
3) If they're looking 'negroid', which according to you are the majority, than who are those that are claiming black in DR? Like for example Johnny ventura.
4) I have plenty of African American friends, this perception is limited to the online world inhabitated by race obsessed Afrocentrics.
Give me a very real example of someone who looks like David Ortiz and claims being 'indio' or 'white'.
1. The vast majority of African Americans are mixed, with the same racial ingredients, in very similar proportions. What's your point?
2. You're probably a very light-skinned Mulatto. Ignorant Americans think that "Hispanic" is a racial group with light brown skin and straight to curly hair, and can't tell the difference between a Mexican (i.e. Mestizo) and a Puerto Rican (i.e. Quadroon). You're fooling them with your hispanic accent and likely your fierce attempts to identify as solely Hispanic.
3. What? Anyway most do look very clearly Negroid. Have you been to our country lately?
4. I wasn't talking about African-Americans holding this perception. I was talking about every American. The whites, the Blacks, the Chicanos, and the Asians. I'm assuming these are all race-obsessed Afrocentrics? :rolleyes:
5. My grandmother.
Just wanna say one thing here. Just because I was born and raised in America, and thus obviously consider myself Black by America's racial standards (as 80-90% of Dominicans would be identified by the average American) doesn't make me any less Dominican, or proud of it. I'm not proud of being "hispanic" because being able to speak a language is nothing to be proud of, a freaking parakeet can do it. But I'm proud of being Dominican for what Dominican means and what Dominican is, the son of a Black woman from a Black country. I speak spanish fluently with an authentic Dominican accent, speak it in the house with my mother every single day, and I'm the first to tell any and all of my friends that I'm Dominican & Dutch, and point out that it's a Hispanic country. I leave the rest to them, and America identifies me, as well as nearly every one of us, as Black. I don't mind, it's a good thing. The only place in the world where they aren't universally considered Blacks is in the Caribbean, even the rest of Latin America will never call us Indios, Mestizos, or White, simply Mulato or Negro. In Spain your a freaking African even if you're lightskinned like me.
Nephilim
2010-01-20, 20:41
I belive people should always remeber their past. The Taino past must not be forgotten. One should always keeps the flame burning for his ancestors. Dominicans, Purto-Ricans, and other people must be proud of their African and Indian ancestors.
What happened to the Tainos was indeed sad, and hence why their memory should continue. They were a wise bunch of people whom were called primtive but were more cultured than those who called them that.
The Indian ancestery is important all over the Americas, especially Central and South America, and the West Indies. People should take pride in it.
So what do you think of what I say then, coming from a Dominican myself. There are many more progressive-minded Dominicans such as myself these days, trust me. We're about factuality and reasonability, not dismissing anything non-Black. I for one embrace European heritage, why not? It's clearly there, and especially in my case, and it's something to be proud of. What makes me sick is when Dominicans obsess over fairy tale Tainos.
Based on your post I think of you as being somewhat disconnected from Dominican reality. You also seem at least influenced by USA racialism.
Dominican Republic, like the majority of countries in LatinAmerica, did not develop a nationalistic self-identity along mono-racial lines. From the very beginning, Duarte knew Dominicans had a mixed heritage. There is no seperate "Afro" subculture or minority, just like there isn't one for 'white or taino'.
All standard school texts clearly state that the Tainos were wiped out, the average Dominican doesn't think of himself as Taino. Dominicans, both in the US and the island, reject the black/white USA racentric identities. And you're talking to someone raised among African Americans as are plenty of Dominicans here in the NJ/NY area. I'm not talking from some Ivory Tower racial idealogy, I'm speaking from the reality.
...
Retard, I'm not Haitian. I'm Dominican. And I might have Taino ancestors, so envy definitely isn't there. Shame, if anything.[COLOR="Silver"]
.
How long you or your parents migrated from Haiti? :ashamed:
Kid From Timbuktu
2010-01-20, 20:55
CAONABO the eurocentric, have made his way over here.
CAONABO the eurocentric, have made his way over here.
Chico, ¿Tu tambien eres dominicano? (Boy, are you also Dominican?) :whoco:
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 18:01 ----------
I belive people should always remeber their past. The Taino past must not be forgotten. One should always keeps the flame burning for his ancestors. Dominicans, Purto-Ricans, and other people must be proud of their African and Indian ancestors.
Cosign
What happened to the Tainos was indeed sad, and hence why their memory should continue. They were a wise bunch of people whom were called primtive but were more cultured than those who called them that.
I believe that, too.
The Indian ancestery is important all over the Americas, especially Central and South America, and the West Indies. People should take pride in it.
Absolutely. Cosign again.
Kid From Timbuktu
2010-01-20, 21:02
Chico, ¿Tu tambien eres dominicano? (Boy, are you also Dominican?) :whoco:[COLOR="Silver"]
I would rather be a Haitian.
Based on your post I think of you as being somewhat disconnected from Dominican reality. You also seem at least influenced by USA racialism.
Dominican Republic, like the majority of countries in LatinAmerica, did not develop a nationalistic self-identity along mono-racial lines. From the very beginning, Duarte knew Dominicans had a mixed heritage. There is no seperate "Afro" subculture or minority, just like there isn't one for 'white or taino'.
All standard school texts clearly state that the Tainos were wiped out, the average Dominican doesn't think of himself as Taino. Dominicans, both in the US and the island, reject the black/white USA racentric identities. And you're talking to someone raised among African Americans as are plenty of Dominicans here in the NJ/NY area. I'm not talking from some Ivory Tower racial idealogy, I'm speaking from the reality.
My mom sure does, she doesn't beleive she is predominately African with Euro influence. She tells me that in school she learned that the DR was a South American country and showed pictures of S. Americans in comparison, and talks a lot about Taino ancestors. In 2nd grade I showed her my textbook which had a chapter talking about the DR and how they're mostly African and White, and she told me they must have confused it with Dominica (they didn't.)
Of course I'm influenced by American racial standards, since I live in America. And I'm aware that Dominicans don't have a single race identity, just as for example Mexico doesn't. They're realistic and reasonable at least, so they officially identify as a Mestizo nation, even though there is a small African part to it. Likewise the DR should be reasonable and wake up, then identify as a Mulatto nation, which they don't. They choose the catch-all "Hispanic" nation that even Mexico doesn't, because they can't bear to be compared to their sworn enemies, the Haitians. You should have seen how pissed my whole family was in the DR when I told them we were all mulattoes. They were like, "Nooo, tu ta confundio, mulato significa parte Negro, eso no e lo k somo"
I would rather be a Haitian.
I see. Well, you aren't a Latin American, then. :ashamed:
Kid From Timbuktu
2010-01-20, 21:10
I see. Well, you aren't a Latin American, then. :ashamed:
http://i48.tinypic.com/kb6jc8.jpg
My grandmother.
Anyone who looks like David Ortiz and calls themselves mixed or white will be laughed at by most people to their face or behind their backs. My step grandfather is a self-identified black Dominican and viewed as such. If this is true about your grandmother, than it is an anomaly which is not to be projected to the entire nation. Instead of relying on personal anecdotes than can't be proven or disproven, a very real live example is Johnny Ventura.Why doesn't Johnny Ventura call himseld indio then?
1. The vast majority of African Americans are mixed, with the same racial ingredients, in very similar proportions. What's your point
No they're not. You're losing more and more credibility. I'll let non-Dominican themselves tell you if they want.
2. You're probably a very light-skinned Mulatto. Ignorant Americans think that "Hispanic" is a racial group with light brown skin and straight to curly hair, and can't tell the difference between a Mexican (i.e. Mestizo) and a Puerto Rican (i.e. Quadroon). You're fooling them with your hispanic accent and likely your fierce attempts to identify as solely Hispanic.
lol, I am a very typical Dominican indio (mixed). Contrary to online speculations, Americans in areas where there's a significant amount of Latinos do not automatically onedrop us. And people can tell a Mexican from a Puerto Rican or Domincian here. Oh, and by the way, it's recent Central/South American immigrants who can't often tell between a DR & PR. lol @ 'fierce' attempts, I am Hispanic, no need to try.
3
. What? Anyway most do look very clearly Negroid. Have you been to our country recently?
You do know I live 15 min. away from whats considered ground zero of DR immigrants (Washington heights)? I see Dominicans of all socioeconomic classes every day.
4. I wasn't talking about African-Americans holding this perception. I was talking about every American. The whites, the Blacks, the Chicanos, and the Asians. I'm assuming these are all Afrocentrics?
Do you truly believe this or are you just joking? While I haven't been to California, I have been to various states including Texas. Also have family that moved to North Carolina and an uncle in Texas. I can give you the breakdown of what they're moslty confused for and not it's not just black. This goes for many Dominicans in the military in California. It's a wide ranging amount of nationalities which may surprise you.
The only place in the world where they aren't is in the Caribbean, even the rest of Latin America will never call us Indios, Mestizos, or White, simply Mulato or Negro.
Making gigantic overgeneralizations on an entire population is clearly wrong, but here's my personal experience as well as others I know of:
-When I've gone to Mexico they call me Puerto Rican.
-When I go to Texas the Mexican-Americans call me Puerto Rican, the whites and blacks think I'm some foreigner.
-I'm not black or white in Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Puerto Rico or DR. Pretty consistent no? Believe me I'm pretty perceptive on these things. I've purposely called myself negro in front of them. All looked at me in puzzlement, and this goes for the whites LatinAmericans the Argentines. I think you've absorbed American onedroppism.
That's the same thing I wonder
Because they think that if they create a big black coalition all over the Americas they will receive more compensations/privileges but that's not the way we do things down here.
How long you or your parents migrated from Haiti? :ashamed:
Lolwut? I was born and raised in America, dumbfuck. My moms was born and raised in the DR (tho we do have relatives in Haiti). And my pops was born and raised in the Netherlands. Hardly migrating from Haiti my friend.
My mom sure does, she doesn't beleive she is predominately African with Euro influence. She tells me that in school she learned that the DR was a South American country and showed pictures of S. Americans in comparison, and talks a lot about Taino ancestors. In 2nd grade I showed her my textbook which had a chapter talking about the DR and how they're mostly African and White, and she told me they must have confused it with Dominica (they didn't.)
Of course I'm influenced by American racial standards, since I live in America. And I'm aware that Dominicans don't have a single race identity, just as for example Mexico doesn't. They're realistic and reasonable at least, so they officially identify as a Mestizo nation, even though there is a small African part to it. Likewise the DR should be reasonable and wake up, then identify as a Mulatto nation, which they don't. They choose the catch-all "Hispanic" nation that even Mexico doesn't, because they can't bear to be compared to their sworn enemies, the Haitians. You should have seen how pissed my whole family was in the DR when I told them we were all mulattoes. They were like, "Nooo, tu ta confundio, mulato significa parte Negro, eso no e lo k somo"
Wow, Caine you have alot of exploring and investigating to do. Now I see where you're somewhat strange comments come from. There's so much misinformation in that posts that I don't even know where to begin. Let me just say you're wrong, but it's best for you to discover this for youself. You're talking to someone who did one year of study in DR and has relative in teaching positions. All standard text books clearly state African/European. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just trolling.
Just wanna say one thing here. Just because I was born and raised in America, and thus obviously consider myself Black by America's racial standards (as 80-90% of Dominicans would be identified by the average American) doesn't make me any less Dominican, or proud of it. I'm not proud of being "hispanic" because being able to speak a language is nothing to be proud of, a freaking parakeet can do it. But I'm proud of being Dominican for what Dominican means and what Dominican is, the son of a Black woman from a Black country. I speak spanish fluently with an authentic Dominican accent, speak it in the house with my mother every single day, and I'm the first to tell any and all of my friends that I'm Dominican & Dutch, and point out that it's a Hispanic country. I leave the rest to them, and America identifies me, as well as nearly every one of us, as Black. I don't mind, it's a good thing. The only place in the world where they aren't universally considered Blacks is in the Caribbean, even the rest of Latin America will never call us Indios, Mestizos, or White, simply Mulato or Negro. In Spain your a freaking African even if you're lightskinned like me.
And that's because most people in the Caribbean(most of French,Dutch, and English) are polite when it comes to race, and don't force people identify with any side since it was not the history of most.
Lolwut? I was born and raised in America, dumbfuck. My moms was born and raised in the DR (tho we do have relatives in Haiti). And my pops was born and raised in the Netherlands. Hardly migrating from Haiti my friend.
Are you of Haitian ancestry? Is your mom Dominican or Haitian (I don't mean where she was born). Not that this matters in the convo., but out of curiousity.
Are you of Haitian ancestry? Is your mom Dominican or Haitian (I don't mean where she was born). Not that this matters in the convo., but out of curiousity.
I doubt he is Haitian. No Haitian I have ever meet is as African Americanized as him.
Anyone who looks like David Ortiz and calls themselves mixed or white will be laughed at by most people to their face or behind their backs. My step grandfather is a self-identified black Dominican and viewed as such. If this is true about your grandmother, than it is an anomaly which is not to be projected to the entire nation. Instead of relying on personal anecdotes than can't be proven or disproven, a very real live example is Johnny Ventura.Why doesn't Johnny Ventura call himseld indio then?
No they're not. You're losing more and more credibility. I'll let non-Dominican themselves tell you if they want.
lol, I am a very typical Dominican indio (mixed). Contrary to online speculations, Americans in areas where there's a significant amount of Latinos do not automatically onedrop us. And people can tell a Mexican from a Puerto Rican or Domincian here. Oh, and by the way, it's recent Central/South American immigrants who can't often tell between a DR & PR. lol @ 'fierce' attempts, I am Hispanic, no need to try.
3
You do know I live 15 min. away from whats considered ground zero of DR immigrants (Washington heights)? I see Dominicans of all socioeconomic classes every day.
Do you truly believe this or are you just joking? While I haven't been to California, I have been to various states including Texas. Also have family that moved to North Carolina and an uncle in Texas. I can give you the breakdown of what they're moslty confused for and not it's not just black. This goes for many Dominicans in the military in California. It's a wide ranging amount of nationalities which may surprise you.
Making gigantic overgeneralizations on an entire population is clearly wrong, but here's my personal experience as well as others I know of:
-When I've gone to Mexico they call me Puerto Rican.
-When I go to Texas the Mexican-Americans call me Puerto Rican, the whites and blacks think I'm some foreigner.
-I'm not black or white in Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Puerto Rico or DR. Pretty consistent no? Believe me I'm pretty perceptive on these things. I've purposely called myself negro in front of them. All looked at me in puzzlement, and this goes for the whites LatinAmericans the Argentines. I think you've absorbed American onedroppism.
1. My evidence is hardly anecdotal. It is in fact more representative than your outlier case.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WKZhl3N6uiMC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=black+denial+dominican+indio&source=bl&ots=WAGYI8eZsf&sig=yOYeshwfLB2MCDX7ppcHx1YEZGQ&hl=en&ei=l3NXS9f0EZXKsAPOy4jGBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=black%20denial%20dominican%20indio&f=false
http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part2/index.html
Educate yourself. I'm not about to waste my time spelling it out for you because they don't pay me to be a teacher here.
2. Losing credibility? Hahah... do you know anything about African Americans? You do know they're all mixed, often to the 50% level or more with white and/or Native American blood, even if they have "full black" parents, right? This is already well established, and you can find 100's of genetic studies of AA's on the internet that prove this. African Americans actually have more Amerind blood as a population than Dominicans.
3. Let's see a pic of your famed "typical Dominican" look. And btw Washington heights is hardly representative of the DR as a whole. Only the Dominican families who can afford a flight to Miami or NY live there, and the vast majority of Dominicans cannot. Considering the strong correlation between wealth and whiteness in the DR, your case is even weaker.
4. The fuck you know bout the South? Son, I was born in the South and lived there for much of my childhood. They confuse Philipinos for Black, and one-dropism is alive and well over there. You're trynna tell me that you, a "typical Dominican", wasn't considered Black? You must be selectively sharing one or two experiences you may have had with foreigners in the region, like my mom always does (she always is so proud when a single person says she looks Brazilian or some other race, conveniently choosing not to share that every day people assume she's AA until she speaks). The fact is that if you really do look like the vast majority of Dominicans, southern Americans would not consider you Hispanic.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 13:40 ----------
Wow, Caine you have alot of exploring and investigating to do. Now I see where you're somewhat strange comments come from. There's so much misinformation in that posts that I don't even know where to begin. Let me just say you're wrong, but it's best for you to discover this for youself. You're talking to someone who did one year of study in DR and has relative in teaching positions. All standard text books clearly state African/European. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just trolling.
Not according to what I've read about Trujillo and his catastrophic legacy on the country. Everything I posted is actually in exact accordance to what he did to the textbooks, and to society as a whole. I'm hardly a troll, you're fresh-joined member who starts posting imbecilic and slightly Eurocentric BS about my country.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 13:46 ----------
And that's because most people in the Caribbean(most of French,Dutch, and English) are polite when it comes to race, and don't force people identify with any side since it was not the history of most.
I don't force Blackness on people unless they're, you got it, Black. African Americans don't either. I personally wouldn't even ask Don Omar to consider himself Black, he does it on purpose. Must I remind you of your own thread with pictures of Dominicans, almost all of whom were darker and more negroid than Don? Please don't tell me you don't think most of those people are clearly Black.
@CABONAO, my mother and all her family is Dominican and AFAIK there was no migration from Haiti, but her half-aunt or something was half-Haitian, so thats how I have Haitian relatives.
I don't force Blackness on people unless they're, you got it, Black. African Americans don't either, and neither do Afrocentrics. Must I remind you of your own thread with pictures of Dominicans? Please don't tell me you don't think most of those people are clearly Black.
Yes, they are black if they identify as such. But if they don't then are you going to force them? American born Tiger Woods, said he didn't feel comfortable being called Black or African American. And he is darker than many of the Dominicans I posted.
Well Tiger is only 1/4 African American, probably less than 1/4 SSA genes. Dominicans are on average much blacker. Tiger's specific case is illusory to where he looks "Blacker" than his racial composition should because he has a lot of Asian ancestry, which accounts for his wide nose, full lips and dark skin as compared to other quadroons. Americans want to label him Black because they're ignorant on race mixing. I can feel him on not wanting to be just African American.
I mean if those people don't identify as Black, I can't force them to. But I can shake my head and tell them that they are embarrassed of being physically Black and genetically predominately West African, because there's no other explanation. They might not be Africans, they may not be 100% coal black in color, but they are Black folks nonetheless. Ethiopians many would argue are not even Black, and many are highly mixed with Arabid/non-native African blood to the point where the average person would not consider some "Black people", and they consider themselves Black for the most part.
If you say Dominicans look black and should call themselves black, then it also applies to Tiger Woods. Regardless of his racial makeup. But who is going to force him to identify as black?
Well I think most Dominicans should identify as Mulatto, because that's what most are. "Black" in itself is their choice, whether they want to solely identify with it and exclude the rest is up to them. But they fail to acknowledge their Africanness to the level that it represents them, while Tiger knows damn well what he is. He just doesn't want to have to fit into the African American category, itself different from being a Black man phenotypically. Personally he looks very Asian to me tho, kinda like a dark philipino or a skinny samoan
christianpierre
2010-01-20, 22:13
from what i know most puerto ricans consider themselves homogenous and admit to a mixture of spanish, african and taino ancestors which is a simplified history taught to the children at school...most puerto ricans are actually unaware of the complexities of the racial mixing in there island or there personal ancestry unless theres obvious hints such as a puerto rican who looks predominately black or has blonde hair and blue eyes or a non iberian surname i deffinately like to see some more detailed genetic testing done in puerto rico but for the most part being puerto rican comes first and being black or white is a "color" not there "race"
puerto ricans in the u.s sporting braids is more of a urban trend brought on by hip hop...ive even had them when i was in junior high and my hairs dead straight lol
(they hurt) i think alot of puerto ricans celebrate the african influence on there culture, and willa dmit to having black family members
but commonly not ever referring to themselves as black
my grandfather used to tell me all the blacks in puerto rico were refugees from dominican republic
im not speaking of my own opinions just personal experience
im puerto rican i know of spanish(canarian,asturian) french(corse,bretagne) and black heritage in my family im only 1/4 black
im curious what my phenotype would be on this site?
Lol your hair looks a bit dry and course to me, like quadroon hair. But anyways thats besides the point lol. I see Taino influence in you tho apart from the obvious mediterranian and less prominent Black.
Well I think most Dominicans should identify as Mulatto, because that's what most are. "Black" in itself is their choice, whether they want to solely identify with it and exclude the rest is up to them. But they fail to acknowledge their Africanness to the level that it represents them, while Tiger knows damn well what he is. He just doesn't want to have to fit into the African American category, itself different from being a Black man phenotypically. Personally he looks very Asian to me tho, kinda like a dark philipino or a skinny samoan
Will Demps 1/2 African American 1/2 Korean looks more caublinasian than Tiger does. Yet he is more in touch with his Africaness than Tiger.
http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/willdemps3.jpg
http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tiger-woods-r.jpg
I think we should reconize those who don't acknowledge their blackness in the US, DR and elsewhere.
christianpierre
2010-01-20, 22:38
Lol your hair looks a bit dry and course to me, like quadroon hair. But anyways thats besides the point lol. I see Taino influence in you tho apart from the obvious mediterranian and less prominent Black.
interesting i have very oily hair and have to wash it everyday:p which my black roomate tells me is a white featur, and my hairs thick but actually isnt curled or rough like kinky hair
i dont know of anyone in my family who is native or looks it what features are you talking about?
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 17:39 ----------
i was told by the ghanaians who braided my hair that my hair wasnt for braids lol and that theyd fall out fast
Will Demps 1/2 African American 1/2 Korean looks more caublinasian than Tiger does. Yet he is more in touch with his Africaness than Tiger.
http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/willdemps3.jpg
http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tiger-woods-r.jpg
I think we should reconize those who don't acknowledge their blackness in the US, DR and elsewhere.
Good point. It is their choice, Demps is proud of what he is and considers himself African American while he appears less obviously Black than Tiger. But at least both acknowledge themselves as partly Black African, something Dominicans I feel fail to do. Tiger has a good reason to acknowledge his Asian and white ancestry, considering it's 75% of him, while Dominicans, genetically and phenotypically speaking, really don't have an excuse for their Taino obsession.
What I'm trynna say pretty much is that if you're as Black as Dominicans are, you should acknowledge it like Cuba does. What does historical segregation have to do with what race you physically are, today, is what I want to ask those who use it as DR's excuse for their underrepresented Africanness compared to Cuba. You don't have to identify as only African, but you should consider yourself Black because it's simply obvious and its simply a fact. I think that my own racial identity is exemplary of how the Dominican should think of himself. Obviously a Black person, but obviously not a pure African.
Good point. It is their choice, Demps is proud of what he is and considers himself African American while he appears less obviously Black than Tiger. But at least both acknowledge themselves as partly Black African, something Dominicans I feel fail to do. Tiger has a good reason to acknowledge his Asian and white ancestry, considering it's 75% of him, while Dominicans, genetically and phenotypically speaking, really don't have an excuse for their Taino obsession.
What I'm trynna say pretty much is that if you're as Black as Dominicans are, you should acknowledge it like Cuba does. What does historical segregation have to do with what race you physically are, today, is what I want to ask those who use it as DR's excuse for their underrepresented Africanness compared to Cuba. You don't have to identify as only African, but you should consider yourself Black because it's simply obvious and its simply a fact. I think that my own racial identity is exemplary of how the Dominican should think of himself. Obviously a Black person, but obviously not a pure African.
I was going to say ''Africaness'' not blackness.
jonboyclem
2010-01-20, 23:07
im puerto rican i know of spanish(canarian,asturian) french(corse,bretagne) and black heritage in my family im only 1/4 black
im curious what my phenotype would be on this site?
You look very similar to Jose, who's the resident Mexican on this forum.
Decimator
2010-01-20, 23:21
You look very similar to Jose, who's the resident Mexican on this forum.
Nah, I don't think so... his eyes are completely distinct, even in the first picture he looks Pakistanian
jonboyclem
2010-01-20, 23:32
Nah, I don't think so... his eyes are completely distinct, even in the first picture he looks Pakistanian
I'm tripping:) From first glance, I thought he looked similar to you.
Because they think that if they create a big black coalition all over the Americas they will receive more compensations/privileges but that's not the way we do things down here.
Big black coalition? Not in Latin America. Here, the coalition is among Latinos of any race. And the rest are out of he club.
christianpierre
2010-01-20, 23:48
yeah i figured some type similar to people from middle east/north africa/north india i get mistaken for those the most sometimes jewish like young serge gainsbourg but never mexican lol
Well I think most Dominicans should identify as Mulatto, because that's what most are. "Black" in itself is their choice, whether they want to solely identify with it and exclude the rest is up to them. But they fail to acknowledge their Africanness to the level that it represents them, while Tiger knows damn well what he is. He just doesn't want to have to fit into the African American category, itself different from being a Black man phenotypically. Personally he looks very Asian to me tho, kinda like a dark philipino or a skinny samoan
But you are American, aren't you? Or at least you move to great paradyse U.S.A.
So, as American you have no right to dictate anything to Latin Americans. You passed to the band of the enemy, so to speak. Either in Black or White, the Yankee is a Yankee, no matter it could be an Afro-Yankee, it is Yankee anyways.
And Yankees invaded D.R., control P.R. and have prisoner to Cuba. :ashamed:
My perception of all this seems to be that if you're Latin American, acknowledging any African ancestry is not enough for blacks. You have to fully subscribe to the ghetto culture or else you're somehow dissing your ancestry and culture and want to be white.
For one, almost every race participates in "HipHOp" culture since it's the most popular subculture globally. It's the most colorblind form. With that being said, participating in HipHop culture doesn't make one any blacker or prouder of their african roots.
That's not the gist of Windie's question though which Is why I posted (the quote is below to your next post..
Why don't blacks just leave other ethnic groups alone and quit expecting them to all embrace something that is a component of their history, and is not an individual identification. These people have a unique culture, it is not a "black" culture any more than it is a European or native one. So leave them the fuck alone and let them be. These people have no need to be black.
Windie isn't asking if their proud of their African roots from a racial identification POV. I think she's talking more culturally. She's not asking them to be black which Is why I made this point earlier..
..just for the record, in the case of the Latin Americans I think Windie is refering to (Ricans,Cuban, Dominicans) they don't have to necessarily identify as racially black to be proud of their African roots. IMO it's more of matter of acknowledging it vs downplaying it culturally speaking.
She's talking culturally more than racially. She's not asking or telling them to be black. As far as the african roots go, she's talking downplaying it vs acknowledging it IMO.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-21, 00:37
Do you truly believe this or are you just joking? While I haven't been to California, I have been to various states including Texas. Also have family that moved to North Carolina and an uncle in Texas. I can give you the breakdown of what they're moslty confused for and not it's not just black. This goes for many Dominicans in the military in California. It's a wide ranging amount of nationalities which may surprise you.
Making gigantic overgeneralizations on an entire population is clearly wrong, but here's my personal experience as well as others I know of:
-When I've gone to Mexico they call me Puerto Rican.
-When I go to Texas the Mexican-Americans call me Puerto Rican, the whites and blacks think I'm some foreigner.
-I'm not black or white in Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Puerto Rico or DR. Pretty consistent no? Believe me I'm pretty perceptive on these things. I've purposely called myself negro in front of them. All looked at me in puzzlement, and this goes for the whites LatinAmericans the Argentines. I think you've absorbed American onedroppism.
Mexicans in SoCal thought I was Mexican or Mexican-Puerto Rican. One thought I was Cuban.:lol:
I in no way reflect the "mestizo" typical Mexican look. They were simply taking into account the variation within their own country and assuming from my toned down Dominican accent (for ease of communication) that I was one of their own or close to it.
CAONABO, this is a good example of Windie's point is
..just for the record, in the case of the Latin Americans I think Windie is refering to (Ricans,Cuban, Dominicans) they don't have to necessarily identify as racially black to be proud of their African roots. IMO it's more of matter of acknowledging it vs downplaying it culturally speaking.
Merengue and Dominican Identity with Paul Austerlitz
The African Connection and Dominican Identity
In Luis Alberti’s autobiography, the bandleader wrote that “Merengue has nothing to do with African rhythms.” While merengue may not be as African-influenced as Dominican ritual drumming practices such as palos or salve, it’s unmistakable – the rhythmic base of merengue is African. Paul Austerlitz shows us that Alberti’s remark is part of a national identity complex.
Paul Austerlitz: - “There are people in the DR who will say that merengue is European. But that’s the great paradox of Dominican culture, and Trujillo kind of personified that paradox. The is an Afro-Caribbean country with a very Eurocentric identity. Trujillo personified that, he chose merengue as the national music because he claimed, and his ideologues claimed that it was a European music. But we know that it has African influence. We also know that Trujillo was a very skilled merengue dancer, he loved merengue, and he responded to the African influences in merengue.”
“Merengue does have some European influences, it is a syncretic genre it’s not totally an African genre. The way that merengue is danced for example, it’s danced in the ballroom dance position, that’s a European form of choreography. Also, traditional merengue has three sections. That sectional form comes from the contradanse which is a European dance.
But we’ve seen the Dominican drums are actually based on African prototypes. Dominican rhythms, like all Afro-Caribbean rhythms and African rhythms are based a responsorial aesthetic, which means that the aesthetic is based on two instruments or voiced responding to each other, such as call and response in voices with a soloist and chorus responding, or drums talking back and forth with each other. And that responsorial aesthetic extends to the dance, so that you also respond to the music by moving your body. So that why Dominicans often say that the music is very contagious, it has this contagious quality when you listen to it, it just gets into you."
Indeed, Dominicans have long identified as European, as opposed to “African” Haitians next door. In fact, Trujillo banned vodu practices as well as the associated drumming traditions. More recent musicians have begun to acknowledge the importance of Africa in their music. Juan Luis Guerra, who is fascinated by his African musical roots, recorded a song with Congolese guitarist Diblo Dibala on his album Fogarté to illustrate this.
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/613/Merengue+and+Dominican+Identity+with+Paul+Austerli tz
^^this is a good example of what I believe is the main point of Windie's question is. This isn't a racial one but a cultural one
Well, Latin Americans are aware and proud of all its people, no matter race. If somebody wants to ask for the heritage of Blacks and only Blacks, then things start to get complicated. Just listen.
There are three important, so called "Black" figures of Colonial Latin America who I bet many people following Afrocentric cultures would be glad to know. The question is, where they really "Blacks" or do they acted in some sort of "African" culture? Absolutely not, they were just people of the colonies that happens to have some Black ancestry but that were culturally Iberians!
(1) First case, the Jose Gil de Castro, known as the "Mulato" Gil. A very important painter of colonial and independency times. He was a mulato, (or perhaps sambo?) of low condition in rural Peru of the 18th century. He was also the best classical (European style) painter of the New World, and he is considered the founder of (among others) the Chilean school of painting. He painted the portraits of Bolivar, San Martin and many others liberators of South America.
(2) Second case, Saint Martin of Porres. Extraordinary man that because his good heart become a Saint of the Catholic church. He was the son of a Spanish noble and a free Panamenian Black woman. He was educated into the Spanish culture.
(3) Aleijadinho was the son of a Portuguese esculptor and his Black slave. For his father, Aleijadinho learned this art and become the most outstanding barroque artist of Colonial Brazil, and perhaps the whole Americas.
The point is, all of them has partial African genetics, but theirs CULTURE was European! So, please don't confuse CULTURE with GENETICS.
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 21:45 ----------
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/613/Merengue+and+Dominican+Identity+with+Paul+Austerli tz
^^this is a good example of what I believe is the main point of Windie's question is. This isn't a racial one but a cultural one
Well, the same Juan Luis Guerra has it very clear that Dominican identity is tri-racial rather than bi or mono-racial. He has recorded Areitos (Taino music) and also has song in Taino!
Well, the same Juan Luis Guerra has it very clear that Dominican identity is tri-racial rather than bi or mono-racial. He has recorded Areitos (Taino music) and also has song in Taino!
The point of that part of the article was show at some point, in Dom Rep, the idea came along that Merengue had ZERO African roots which is downplaying to wiping out African roots culturally speaking. Noone is telling them to deny any part but in this case, that's exactly what was done.
Well, that's wrong on Dominicans, and I agree. Not even majority the Uruguayans, who lack almost all Black ancestry, forget theirs Candombe, and the cult to Yemaya comes from Africa!
What about a thread were to put the African cultural elements that has influenced Latin American culture? For instance, do you know that the Mayan Indians are fanatics of the Marimba (xylophone)? And African instrument that was introduced in the region by the Catholic priests?
I’d argue, based on personal experience, Puerto Rican Americans (Puerto Ricans born and/or raised on the mainland) can be proud of their African heritage, but not in the conventional ways many in the U.S. expect. In other words, many Puerto Ricans can be proud of their African heritage (along with their other lineages) without embracing a black identity. There are many I’ve come across who even elevate their African cultural heritage above the Spanish and Taino because they see the African as more influential culturally, particularly in the area of music. Yet this is acknowledged within the context of being Puerto Rican or mixed. Often, this is independent of how the Puerto Rican actually looks.
Perfect examples would be musicians Jerry and Andy Gonzalez who look to be of predominant Spanish ancestry but their music reflects the African heritage of Puerto Rico.
Jerry Gonzalez
http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/1/7/5/0/650571_356x237.jpg
Andy Gonzalez
http://www.herencialatina.com/Eric/Libre%20-%20Andy%20Gonzalez.jpg
Just to support G-man's post, take Bobby Sanbria for example,
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1323/bobbysanabria0635660113.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/bobbysanabria0635660113.jpg/)
He's a Puerto Rican latin Jazz/Salsa musician, if you read 90-95% of his interviews, he talking about his WEst African derived cultural roots. He doesn't look black and I doubt he sees himself that way but culurally speaking? He looks at Puerto Rican culture as heavily derived from West African culture.
"Everything I do from my own cultural standpoint has its roots in West Africa" - Bobby Sanbria
http://www.tamadrum.co.jp/artist/tama_interview.php?interview_id=13
"The principal thing that we inherited from West Africa," Sanabria says, "is this concept of many rhythms happening simultaneously [by] many musicians — polyrhythms. That initiates also what we call polymeters: many meters at the same time. We inherited that from West Africa, and it's been transferred to all of the music that we listen to today, from rock 'n' roll, funk, hip-hop, jazz."
One of the first artists to bring these influences into the American mainstream was Desi Arnaz.
"Desi Arnaz kind of gets short shrift sometimes, especially in the Hispanic community, because he's looked at only as an entertainer," Sanabria says. "But he was very much in touch with his Afro-Cuban roots, in terms of the culture. When you hear the song 'Babalu Aye,' mainstream America was probably laughing it up, going 'Babalu!' Little did they know that they were being exposed to this incredibly deep West African culture we inherited in the Caribbean." - Bobby Sanbria
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100307740
90-95% of his interview are like those above
In music, yes. Nobody denies that polyrithms come from Africa. But polyrithms in music is not the whole Puerto Rican culture at all. The form of playing guitar and the way of singing, for instance, come from Spain!
Atributing everything to Africa is not only wrong. It is biassed. Even more when we know that some influences don't came from Africa but from Spain, Europe in general, and also from the U.S. Jazz culture, created in America.
In music, yes. Nobody denies that polyrithms come from Africa. But polyrithms in music is not the whole Puerto Rican culture at all. The form of playing guitar and the way of singing, for instance, come from Spain!
Atributing everything to Africa is not only wrong. It is biassed. Even more when we know that some influences don't came from Africa but from Spain, Europe in general, and also from the U.S. Jazz culture, created in America.
Again, he's not saying their 100% African, he's just acknowledging the African rooted part of it.:confused:
---------- Post added 2010-01-20 at 20:22 ----------
...or you can take the Cuban who help father Mambo Big Band/ Salsa/Latin Jazz, Mario Bauza @ 2:00 mins in.....
Latin Music USA
JXXm3V3hIpY
...Latinos being of proud their African roots has nothing to do with participating in so called "ghetto culture". What you see in the video above 100% Carribean Latino to the core (well, with a healthy dose of black american jazz but you get the point lol)
What African roots? For Cubans and other Caribbeans, of course they have African roots. Spaniards kept importing slaves up to the end of the 19h century. Even Celia Cruz was the daughter of African slaves, if I don't remember wrong! So, no wonder she recorded this song.
E4pyJ9Df27E
But that's not the common for the large majority of Latin Americans at all, which live in the mainland. So, the music of Cuba is theirs music, not "the" Latin American music, as if only Cubans had music.
But that's not the common for the large majority of Latin Americans at all, which live in the mainland. So, the music of Cuba is theirs music, not "the" Latin American music, as if only Cubans had music.
Well, obviously this thread could only apply to Latinos with African influences:D
Big black coalition? Not in Latin America. Here, the coalition is among Latinos of any race. And the rest are out of he club.
Well, good luck trying to explain that to the aframs in this thread.
Well, good luck trying to explain that to the aframs in this thread.
hey, I think you also missed the point of the thread. Windies question had nothing do with being black racially/identication wise. Her question was more cultural acknowledgment and I think I explained it clearly a few posts above with the Dominican music article and the Bobby Sanbria quotes.
Dominican music link https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=29852&postcount=114
Bobby Sanbria quotes link https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=29864&postcount=118
^^that's all culture based not racial identification based and I believe is the gist of what Windie meant
or the Cuban musician, Mario Bauza here https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=29867&postcount=120
Then let's formulate the question in better terms.
(1) Does everything Black people produce is an African product? Nope. Black people of the Americas, including mixed Black people, has interacted and lived in a Western or Westernized environment; not in Africa. So what they have produce in the New World is a product of the Americans and not of Africa. And what they have produced? Arts, culture, inventions and science, all the result of the melting pot of the Americas in a mainly Western environment.
(2) Does Latin America has an African heritage?
Well, here we should divide the question in two parts. If for "African" we consider the whole continent, obviously Latin America has a Berber of Maghrebian heritage through Spain! The Phoenicians, Jews, Arabs, Cartagians and Berbers, all Afroasiatic people, left theirs culture in Spain... and viceversa. There is no doubt about it.
(3) Does Latin America has an Subsaharan African heritage?
Not as a whole, but certain countries do have important cultural elements comming from Africa. Some of them are.
Musical instruments:
(1) Hand percusion drums and sandclock drums. (Caribbean Brazil)
(2) Marimba or Xilophone (Mexico, Guatemala)
(3) Thumbs piano (Brazil)
(4) Berimbau, capoheira single string "guitar" (Brazil)
(5) Wica (Brazil)
Music: polyrithms.
Religion: Orishas, Nigerian derivated religions such as Santeria and Candomble. Cult to Yemaya.
Literature: poetry of Nicolas Guillen, the national poet of Cuba.
Language: few things remains at all. However, some formulae of Santeria and Candomble still are said in Yoruba.
^^We all know that the basic mixture for Latin American culture are various combs of African, Euro and Amerindian. I gather Windie's question was in regard to African roots culturally a matter of acknowledging vs downplaying. It's as simple as that IMO. This has nothing to do with racial identification but culture.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-21, 03:15
(3) Does Latin America has an Subsaharan African heritage?
Not as a whole, but certain countries do have important cultural elements comming from Africa. Some of them are.
Musical instruments:
(1) Hand percusion drums and sandclock drums. (Caribbean Brazil)
(2) Marimba or Xilophone (Mexico, Guatemala)
(3) Thumbs piano (Brazil)
(4) Berimbau, capoheira single string "guitar" (Brazil)
(5) Wica (Brazil)
Music: polyrithms.
Religion: Orishas, Nigerian derivated religions such as Santeria and Candomble. Cult to Yemaya.
Literature: poetry of Nicolas Guillen, the national poet of Cuba.
Language: few things remains at all. However, some formulae of Santeria and Candomble still are said in Yoruba.
Food is one as well, which is a big part of culture.
Like this video asking What is Salsa Music?. These are Puerto Ricans
..the MC acknowledges everybody, from African to Tainos...
:15-->:52 Africans (rhythym, bongos/congas and clave)
:53-->1:16 Tainos (Timbales and morrocas)
1:25 --> 1:40 Europe ( Piano)
1:43--> 2:09 North America (Jazz music)
jiPN7wcdeII
..that's all cultural
I am a born and raised Cibaenyo, and i do think that Dominicans have alot of miseducation of their African heritage, i prefer the word moreno over negro, as what i grew up hearing to refer to me was Moreno/Indio. Both Indio and Moreno reflect blackness, but i do think the value of blackness in d.r is very much unapriciated in some cases. As far as merengue it is a mostly African Genre, its rythms are related to the Igbo rythms of Africans brought to D.R and Haiti, the oldest merengue is almost exclusively in Call and Response. Guiras are not necesarily Taino, they are both Taino and African instruments, the people of hte Congo basin have always used Guiras (Scrapers) as part of their instrumentations, i have videos to show this, same goes for Maracas, so just cause an instrument is indegneous or euroepan DOESNT mean that it is played in a european style. Perico ripiao is the most Africanized form of merengue on par with Merengue Palo Echao. The accordion although it is European is doing the SAME call and response the crowd is doing, listen to perico ripiao closely u will hear it responding to the singer, very much the call and response African style.
The Taino musical legacy in the D.R is not very alive at all, but food wise it is HIGHLY important as the Taino dishes where very compatible with central african foods based on Tubers and Wild game, a great compatibility, unlike the Corn based central-american natives. Central-African and Taino foods are so compatible that Casava has turned in the staple crop of central africa and even west africa! I have some indegenous heritage, but i say in importance of genetical contribution the D.R is. African then European and then Taino. In recent Mtdna test done by the university of puertorico in D.R, this is quoted from Jorge Estevez (baracutei), they surveyed close to 600 people in all of the D.R. "60% of the Mtdna was Sub-Saharan African, 20% was Taino and 20% was Eurasian" and out of the Eurasian the majority was Berber and Middle eastern. Of course Ydna would be different, this is just Mtdna and not a conclusive or whole picture of the D.R, but atleast as far as female ancestors it paints an interesting picture. The Taino Mtdna is alot lower then it is in Puerto Rico as a whole. Again i have a very high respect for the indegenous cultures as well as i am indeed a cultural Zambo, specially coming from the Cibao where the original peoples of the countrysides where black and indegenous in many areas with pockets of european descendants.
Pinguin i dont know why you inist in a pan-latin america mentality, it doesnt exist, atleast not for us in D.R, we dont care about any countries in south america, as human beings we have mutual respect but we dont feel a brother or sisterhood with these countries, we are attached to the carribean, specially Cuba/Haiti/Puerto Rico. But yes some of the things you pointed out are legacy of the heritage of our African ancestors, but theres so much more then that, linguistically the D.R has a big impact from Africa, Cuba even more so and Haiti and Brazil. As a matter of fact, Cuba and Brazil have more intact African culture then Haiti, because Africans in Haiti united to fight the french, while Africans in Brazil in Cuba where more divided and had more ethnic divisions, which where reinforced by each religion and music to go with it. In cuba if you where Yoruba and tried walking into a Congolese Cabildo you where risking your life if you came with Bata's trying to play Yoruba music, LOL. These things made it possible for MANY african languages to survive atleast in religious ceremonies intact. Kikongo, Kimbundu, Mande, Yoruba, Efik, and Fon/Ewe are some of the languages that have survived in these countries.
African Roots
01 May 2002
Cuba Si
The magazine of CSC By Gwdihw, a Welsh specialist in religions who writes about the African religions in Cuba
The purpose of our journey to Cuba was to search for African roots grown by slaves when they reached their new land. Starting at Guanabacoa we touched the soil kissed by the slave ancestors thanking Yemanja The Goddess of the Sea for bringing them to land.
The Museum of Guanabacoa is now the place of Afro-Cuban culture with cases of African deities originally secretly twinned or syncretised with Spanish Catholic saints. Our Guide introduced us to Elegua the Door Keeper and Guardian of the Thresholds and Crossroads. We felt reassured to meet the Messenger and felt he blessed us as he led us to Babalao Aye syncretised with St. Lazarus the Heater, with offerings in the shape of metal symbols; a heart or a penis that needed guidance.
Other Orishas or Deities welcomed us and my friend Debbie lingered at Chango's shrine. The African scene or Santeria scene included homely altars laden with casseroles and pots with stones standing in rum or brandy; food for the gods. From the sublime to the ridiculous we could not find 'the guide book restaurant' but Elegua led us to a window, hidden at first but open for dripping cheese pizzas, a bargain at 30 pesos, about 20p.
No taxis were available at midday but we were rescued by a dark and handsome muscular man in a vest. We returned to Havana in his Buick chariot and he informed us that he was a Chango man and a powerful driver. We sought refuge from the burning sun in the shadowy and mysterious Havana Vieja, full of secret courtyards, pot-holed labyrinths and well-restored buildings.
We were welcomed by a Rasta woman who took us down a narrow maze to Felicia's Rumba This is a Celebration of the Orishas, when the believers become possessed and dance. It goes way back to Nigeria the original home of Ogun and Ochun. Felicia welcomed us and we watched and listened spellbound. The drumming was wild, Ricardo Lasaro is the best Master Drummer in town, with poise and speed, amazing for one so young, memorable in his Shango red. The singers shone and Miki Cortico voice called to the Orishas.
An added bonus was seeing the African murals of the Orishas painted by Gladys Soto Villa. Havana is divided into zones and Havana Central where we stayed nearby consists of high density living quarters for many people with African roots. The Rastas frequent both areas and are extremely friendly and colourful with their Santeria colours of black, red, green and yellow. We stayed in a B& B in a narrow street and found the sence vibrant and energetic. Sleep was a luxury as often there was all night partying.
Between the Vieja and Central zones could be called Limbo. Here the sophisticated hotels are overshadowed by the Art Decadent Bacardi Tower crowned by a topsy turvy bat, symbolising the fall of Capitalism. Parque Central is surrounded by luxuryhotels with foyers full of tourists laden with gold chains, camera and cam corders, capturing the images of the people, but never noticing their smiling faces and greetings; "From where do you come?' Hotel Telegrafico did not escape the African influence as we entered and heard the resonating voice of Maria Cristina of the Group Havan Ritmo, not only did she have a good voice but she was good at improvaisation, up to Calypso style, as she made some witty comments about the guests.
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=1
Decimator
2010-01-21, 05:54
I'm tripping:) From first glance, I thought he looked similar to you.
Yeah... maybe a bit but I think he looks different enough, and I don't mean just pigmentation, I think I'm more robust
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af332/arbin_420/foster2.jpg
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=501&d=1264025570
I think he could be brachycephalic but I'm not sure
Nephilim
2010-01-21, 05:56
Yeah... maybe a bit but I think he looks different enough, and I don't mean just pigmentation, I think I'm more robust
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af332/arbin_420/foster2.jpg
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=501&d=1264025570
I think he could be brachycephalic but I'm not sure
He looks more Middle Eastern than you. You look more Central Asian IMAO
^^We all know that the basic mixture for Latin American culture are various combs of African, Euro and Amerindian. I gather Windie's question was in regard to African roots culturally a matter of acknowledging vs downplaying. It's as simple as that IMO. This has nothing to do with racial identification but culture.
What you don't know is the order. This should be Euro, Amerindian, African; according to the demographic and cultural impact of each group.
With respect to Africans, no matter they are very important demographically in the Caribbean and NorthEast Brazil, they aren't not widespread at all outside the Caribbean and coastal areas. That's a point you have to consider.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 08:37 ----------
Food is one as well, which is a big part of culture.
Food? 99% of the food of the Americas is either European or American Indian. The Americas, actually, have provided more than 50% of the vegetables and basic procedures of the food the people worldwide consumes today. There is almost nothing comming from Africa, with the exception of coffee and cola nuts.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 08:42 ----------
The Taino musical legacy in the D.R is not very alive at all, but food wise it is HIGHLY important as the Taino dishes where very compatible with central african foods based on Tubers and Wild game, a great compatibility, unlike the Corn based central-american natives. Central-African and Taino foods are so compatible that Casava has turned in the staple crop of central africa and even west africa! I have some indegenous heritage, but i say in importance of genetical contribution the D.R is. African then European and then Taino. In recent Mtdna test done by the university of puertorico in D.R, this is quoted from Jorge Estevez (baracutei), they surveyed close to 600 people in all of the D.R. "60% of the Mtdna was Sub-Saharan African, 20% was Taino and 20% was Eurasian" and out of the Eurasian the majority was Berber and Middle eastern. Of course Ydna would be different, this is just Mtdna and not a conclusive or whole picture of the D.R, but atleast as far as female ancestors it paints an interesting picture. The Taino Mtdna is alot lower then it is in Puerto Rico as a whole. Again i have a very high respect for the indegenous cultures as well as i am indeed a cultural Zambo, specially coming from the Cibao where the original peoples of the countrysides where black and indegenous in many areas with pockets of european descendants.
Good for you. That is what I expect from the Dominicans.
Pinguin i dont know why you inist in a pan-latin america mentality, it doesnt exist, atleast not for us in D.R, we dont care about any countries in south america, as human beings we have mutual respect but we dont feel a brother or sisterhood with these countries, we are attached to the carribean, specially Cuba/Haiti/Puerto Rico. But yes some of the things you pointed out are legacy of the heritage of our African ancestors, but theres so much more then that, linguistically the D.R has a big impact from Africa, Cuba even more so and Haiti and Brazil. As a matter of fact, Cuba and Brazil have more intact African culture then Haiti, because Africans in Haiti united to fight the french, while Africans in Brazil in Cuba where more divided and had more ethnic divisions, which where reinforced by each religion and music to go with it. In cuba if you where Yoruba and tried walking into a Congolese Cabildo you where risking your life if you came with Bata's trying to play Yoruba music, LOL. These things made it possible for MANY african languages to survive atleast in religious ceremonies intact. Kikongo, Kimbundu, Mande, Yoruba, Efik, and Fon/Ewe are some of the languages that have survived in these countries.
Well, perhaps it is time to extirpate the Hispanic caribbean from Hispanic America.
Ours culture and mentality is different. I bet it was communism emanating from Cuba who gave us the illusion we have something in common with places like Cuba, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic.
Actually, for a South American, Mexico is a lot more a familiar place than the Caribbean.
Sanjub_Saraswati
2010-01-21, 12:34
Well, perhaps it is time to extirpate the Hispanic caribbean from Hispanic America.
Ours culture and mentality is different. I bet it was communism emanating from Cuba who gave us the illusion we have something in common with places like Cuba, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic.
Actually, for a South American, Mexico is a lot more a familiar place than the Caribbean.
Why do you always need to be defensive when someone spells out the truth?
Why do you always need to be defensive when someone spells out the truth?
Defensive? It is fine that Dominicans and Cubans preserve theirs African heritage, but they have to define themselves. Either they are Latinos or "Africans", they can't be both.
Food? 99% of the food of the Americas is either European or American Indian. The Americas, actually, have provided more than 50% of the vegetables and basic procedures of the food the people worldwide consumes today. There is almost nothing comming from Africa, with the exception of coffee and cola nuts.
LOL. In Chile maybe.
LOL. In Chile maybe.
What do you have in Peru? cooked beans? pineapples? I doubt you have a single product comming from Africa.
I think by food, EiCibaeño (as well as myself) meant dishes, cuisine, recipes... Of those we have a lot here (the slaves were pretty ingenious to create new dishes) as well as Brazilians too (and Colombians I guess). Unlike other countries in the region, we have Chinese influence in our cuisine too.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-21, 17:00
I think by food, EiCibaeño (as well as myself) meant dishes, cuisine, recipes... Of those we have a lot here (the slaves were pretty ingenious to create new dishes) as well as Brazilians too (and Colombians I guess). Unlike other countries in the region, we have Chinese influence in our cuisine too.
Correct. Mangu, boiled mashed plantains, could be traced back to Africa. While there is a funny little story of how the name came to be via a English to Spanish translation it supposedly could be of Bantu origin.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 12:01 ----------
I am a born and raised Cibaenyo
Where in El Cibao are you from?
Correct. Mangu, boiled mashed plantains, could be traced back to Africa. While there is a funny little story of how the name came to be via a English to Spanish translation it supposedly could be of Bantu origin....
So, do you mean neither Spaniards nor Indians knew how to boil food? :( Who could believe that.
And yes, Blacks developed several recipees in the Caribbean, wich is obvious. Spaniards did it too. But the basic materials came from Spain and local production; not from Africa.
By the way, Black slaves in the Caribbean invented Rum... not Africans.
Defensive? It is fine that Dominicans and Cubans preserve theirs African heritage, but they have to define themselves. Either they are Latinos or "Africans", they can't be both.
Okra, plantanos, malanga were all crops brought from Africa during the slave trade. Many of the crops cultivated by the Ciboney/Tainos in Cuba were replaced by those brought with the Spaniards; really only yuca, black beans, ñame, fish, and certain fruits which are native to the region are essential to Cuban cuisine. African influences in Cuban cuisine are also seen in the methods of cooking and the mixture of ingredients, also many popular dishes using native and European ingredients were created by the Africans. So when in comes to Cuba, the African influence on our cuisine is second in importance only to the Spanish/European influence.
You also have the understand that the greatest influence on the Hispanic Caribbean by the Spanish, came from latter waves of Spanish immigrants, rather than those of the colonial era like in other parts of Latin America. Canarians were a great influence on the culture of the region, so much that our accents greatly reflect theirs. So even the Spanish roots of our culture are different than say Chile's.
IMO, there is no such thing as a pan-Latin American culture, so no I don't think Cuba and the Hispanic Caribbean are just African in culture, but the Africans were one of the greatest influences on our culture. That's why I don't consider myself (as a Cuban): Latino, or Spanish, or African, but rather an Antillano. I feel a brotherhood with Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, I don't feel that with other Latinos to be quite honest (there are some exceptions to that though) and even if I wasn't partially Brazilian, I'd probably feel the same brotherhood with them too (as a Cuban) even though they don't even speak Spanish.
I'm wondering, do people like Palenqueros, Amerindians, Garifuna, ect. fit your pan-Latin American equation?
Okra, plantanos, malanga were all crops brought from Africa during the slave trade.
The malanga or Xanthosoma is native to the Americas. The Okra is east African, and the platanos come from India; perhaps through Africa.
Many of the crops cultivated by the Ciboney/Tainos in Cuba were replaced by those brought with the Spaniards; really only yuca, black beans, ñame, fish, and certain fruits which are native to the region are essential to Cuban cuisine.
Well, most of the plants and fruits that the Americas contributed to the world didn't come from the Caribbean. Potatoes, corn, tomatoes, chocolates, avocados, etc., none is from there.
1. My evidence is hardly anecdotal. It is in fact more representative than your outlier case.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WKZhl3N6uiMC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=black+denial+dominican+indio&source=bl&ots=WAGYI8eZsf&sig=yOYeshwfLB2MCDX7ppcHx1YEZGQ&hl=en&ei=l3NXS9f0EZXKsAPOy4jGBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=black%20denial%20dominican%20indio&f=false
The title of this book, 'Black Behind the Ears' is a direct reference to a very common and popular saying among Dominicans. It essentially means that the majority of people are likely to have some degree of African ancestry, mere physical features don't always tell the whole story. Cubans have a similar saying 'El que no tiene de Dinga tiene Mandiga".This 'evidence' you just cited is evidence of acknowledgment of African ancestry among the average Dominican lay person.
The main focus of the book is to examine how Dominican self-identity evolved.
http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedi...rt2/index.html
This infamous miami herald article, irresponsible journalism that caricaturizes and patholigizes Dominicans has been critiqued for so many flaws and misninformation that it's not even taken seriously in academic circles. The fact that you cannot even tell this blatant fact speaks volumes, you essentially accepted what it said and parrot it.
There are many studies that prove what I already know and have already told you. Dominicans do not have a USA style racecentric self-identiy, this in no way means that they don't know of their African ancestry. Instead of derailing this thread further and making it about Dominican self-identity, I'll just refer you to the works of Jose Itzigsohn & Carlos Dobre-Cabral.
The malanga or Xanthosoma is native to the Americas. The Okra is east African, and the platanos come from India; perhaps through Africa.
Well, most of the plants and fruits that the Americas contributed to the world didn't come from the Caribbean. Potatoes, corn, tomatoes, chocolates, avocados, etc., none is from there.Malanga isn't native to Cuba though and was brought to Cuba from West Africa. In English it's called Taro root.
I'm talking about who contributed to the vegetation of Cuba, not where the crop originated from, Plantanos and Okra were brought to Cuba via Africa.
Do you think Indians brought Plantanos to Latin America, lol?
I don't get your second point, but yes I agree with that..
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 12:59 ----------
This infamous miami herald article, irresponsible journalism that caricaturizes and patholigizes Dominicans has been critiqued for so many flaws and misninformation that it's not even taken seriously in academic circles.Cosign. There's a lot of misinformation in that article and it's obviously based on an African-American POV.
.
2. Losing credibility? Hahah... do you know anything about African Americans? You do know they're all mixed, often to the 50% level or more with white and/or Native American blood, even if they have "full black" parents, right? This is already well established, and you can find 100's of genetic studies of AA's on the internet that prove this. African Americans actually have more Amerind blood as a population than Dominicans.
1. The vast majority of African Americans are mixed, with the same racial ingredients, in very similar proportions. What's your point
I fail to see how can you compare the genetic ancestral admixture of a U.S. ethnic minority (African Americans) and a LatinAmerican nation (Dominican Republic) and make that claim.
One group, African Americans, were part of a society in which miscegenation was tightly regulated and actively prohibited. Another group, Dominicans, were part of a society in which miscegenation was the norm rather than the exception, said miscegenation taking place even before the ancestors of African Americans were in the USA. Native American ancestry in African Americans has already been proven to be greatly exaggerated. Taino ancestry in Dominicans has been proven in just about every genetic study being made, regardless of what they were looking for. Even allowing for OneDroppism, in which individuals with very little SSA ancestry would self-identify as African American, does not still make them as a group similar to Dominicans. Here's the result of one genetic study on African Ameridans:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1172257
The ancestry of African Americans is predominantly from Niger-Kordofanian (~71%), European (~13%), and other African (~8%) populations, although admixture levels varied considerably among individuals.
And as for the eyeball method, take a look at Magnetos post #114 at the very random picture of a Dominican crowd. Now you tell me if, without the flags, you would confuse them for an African American crowd. I suggest you completely abandon this losing argument of trying to overly mix-wash African Americans so that you can use them as some type of racialized idealistic example against a LatinAmerican country's self-identification.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 18:13 ----------
Malanga isn't native to Cuba though and was brought to Cuba from West Africa. In English it's called Taro root.
I'm talking about who contributed to the vegetation of Cuba, not where the crop originated from, Plantanos and Okra were brought to Cuba via Africa.
Do you think Indians brought Plantanos to Latin America, lol?
I don't get your second point, but yes I agree with that..
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 12:59 ----------
Cosign. There's a lot of misinformation in that article and it's obviously based on an African-American POV.
We're also pretty happy on that reply that Cubans gave various African American leaders recently. If you ever venture on to other forums, Brazil, Cuba, PR, & DR are the favorite targest of Afrocentric fanatics.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 18:26 ----------
Well, perhaps it is time to extirpate the Hispanic caribbean from Hispanic America.
Ours culture and mentality is different. I bet it was communism emanating from Cuba who gave us the illusion we have something in common with places like Cuba, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic.
Actually, for a South American, Mexico is a lot more a familiar place than the Caribbean.
I disgree with Lemba on this point. From what I can remember, Lemba had a rather 'unique' point of view due to his own personal history.
Dominican Republic is a very Latino/Hispanic country, its connected to LatinAmerica from its very inception. The number one place Dominicans migrate to (legallly & illegally) after the USA are Spain & PR. And these relationships are getting stronger and stronger, all one has to do is look at all the ties being tightened with Venezuela, Colombia, & now Brazil. If there were more Dominican here, I'm almost sure they would agree. And here in the USA that is the number one panethnic group they self-identify as and the studies prove it.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 18:32 ----------
Many people may not know that Johnny Pacheco, the founder of the La Fania All Stars is Dominican.
"Salsa traveled the world, it went beyond its language boundaries, and today it is loved by the entire world. I first came up with the idea to create salsa when I founded La Fania All Stars. The members of La Fania All Stars were all young men who lived and grew up in New York. In the group we had Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, 2 Jews and an English, and that is what salsa was. Salsa was a combination of all these different countries, these ingredients formed to create a final recipe. Salsa came mainly from the Cuban music, its roots are mambo, rhumba, son montuno, guaracha, guaguanco, guajira, cha cha cha. The tittle salsa was the commercial name. However, it has other Latin American influences from my native island of Dominican Republic, it has merengue. It also has Puerto Rican influences with charanga and Columbian as well with cumbia. Salsa is a mixture of all these. It also has jazz and rock influences because, La Fania All Stars grew up listening to jazz and rock. What jazz did to salsa was that it enhanced the music, the chords, and the phrazing. It made it more progressive. However, we always played in Tipico style. When we played mambo that’s when we incorporated jazz. Salsa from the beginning was meant to be a dominant style of music. "
"Another unforgettable moment was when we did a concert in Africa, it was in a stadium and there was an attendance of 110,000 people. Despite the fact that not one soul understood what we were saying, they all loved us, they were thrilled and it was like something I’ve never seen before."
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 18:36 ----------
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii126/QUISQUEYANO_01/2436006901_3a8f9c2d05_o.jpg
Correct. Mangu, boiled mashed plantains, could be traced back to Africa. While there is a funny little story of how the name came to be via a English to Spanish translation it supposedly could be of Bantu origin.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 12:01 ----------
Where in El Cibao are you from?
Mangu is definetly of Bantu origin, lol i heard the English corruption of it supposedly it was Man Good, but the fact is Mangu has been in our language before Americans where anywhere near D.R, plus it has basic Bantu and Mande type prefixes. Mangu (Ma Ngu) just like Mango (Ma Ngo) and Mangulina (Ma Ngu Lina) the lina being spanish influence ontop of Bantu.
Here are some Dominican words alone of African origin. Theres many more, but just something i know off the top of my head.
Mangu - Mashed Plantains (Bantu or mande)
Mango - (bantu or mande)
Mofongo - Mashed plantains with meat stuffing (bantu)
Mondongo - Beef Tripe Soup (Bantu)
Mandinga - name of a barrio (Mande)
Zape aka Zape Gato (from the Zape people of Sierra Leone)
KiJombo (Bantu)
Kutuko - It means children, my grandma uses this word (Bantu)
KuKurullo - Like a toddler (Bantu with a spanish ending)
Lambi - Conch food (Bantu)
ñampear - Take a bite (Efik/Ekpwe)
ñango - lazy (Efik/Ekpwe)
Monga - a person that limps (Bantu)
Mayimbe - a badass (Bantu or Mande)
BaKini - ceremony for children who die (Mande or Yoruba)
Mani - In this case not nut, but a vodoun party (Bantu or Mande)
Bembe - Large lower lip (Bantu)
Bembetear - Talk alot (bantu + spanish ending)
Zaperoko - A big mess (Zape)
Abanban - Hard headed (unsure of origin)
I am from San Francisco de Macoris, Dei Barrio Jobo Bonito, thats eastern cibao.
@Caonabo, i do agree that it has become rapidly more in contact with other spanish speakers, specially venezuelans, mexicans, puertoricans becuase there are MANY dominicans who have migrated there, and yes many domincians now live in spain mirroring how many haitians live in france, and jamaicans live in england. There are also alot of dominicans in italy for some odd reason, lol. There are Dominicans in Argentina as well now, but all of these migrations are largely post 1960s (American invasion). Before then Dominicans where alot more isolated due to the Campesino (Countryside) nature of the D.R. The D.R was extremely rural until the late 70s. This was a great way to preserve culture. Boyer was the main propagator of this mentality, which is why D.R was not a huge production island , ala Cuba style, and intead everyone owned some land.
Many people may not know that Johnny Pacheco, the founder of the La Fania All Stars is Dominican.
[I]"Salsa traveled the world, it went beyond its language boundaries, and today it is loved by the entire world. I first came up with the idea to create salsa when I founded La Fania All Stars. The members of La Fania All Stars were all young men who lived and grew up in New York. In the group we had Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, 2 Jews and an English, and that is what salsa was. Salsa was a combination of all these different countries, these ingredients formed to create a final recipe. Salsa came mainly from the Cuban music, its roots are mambo, rhumba, son montuno, guaracha, guaguanco, guajira, cha cha cha. The tittle salsa was the commercial name. However, it has other Latin American influences from my native island of Dominican Republic, it has merengue. It also has Puerto Rican influences with charanga and Columbian as well with cumbia. Salsa is a mixture of all these. It also has jazz and rock influences because, La Fania All Stars grew up listening to jazz and rock. What jazz did to salsa was that it enhanced the music, the chords, and the phrazing. It made it more progressive. However, we always played in Tipico style. When we played mambo that’s when we incorporated jazz. Salsa from the beginning was meant to be a dominant style of music. "
Interesting CAO thanks. Didn't know Johnny was dominican. An off-topic fact: Here, we use his name as slang for 'me'.
- Quien hizo esto?
- Joh(Yo)nny Pacheco!
I fail to see how can you compare the genetic ancestral admixture of a U.S. ethnic minority (African Americans) and a LatinAmerican nation (Dominican Republic) and make that claim.
One group, African Americans, were part of a society in which miscegenation was tightly regulated and actively prohibited. Another group, Dominicans, were part of a society in which miscegenation was the norm rather than the exception, said miscegenation taking place even before the ancestors of African Americans were in the USA. Native American ancestry in African Americans has already been proven to be greatly exaggerated. Taino ancestry in Dominicans has been proven in just about every genetic study being made, regardless of what they were looking for. Even allowing for OneDroppism, in which individuals with very little SSA ancestry would self-identify as African American, does not still make them as a group similar to Dominicans. Here's the result of one genetic study on African Ameridans:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1172257
The ancestry of African Americans is predominantly from Niger-Kordofanian (~71%), European (~13%), and other African (~8%) populations, although admixture levels varied considerably among individuals.
And as for the eyeball method, take a look at Magnetos post #114 at the very random picture of a Dominican crowd. Now you tell me if, without the flags, you would confuse them for an African American crowd. I suggest you completely abandon this losing argument of trying to overly mix-wash African Americans so that you can use them as some type of racialized idealistic example against a LatinAmerican country's self-identification.[COLOR="Silver"]
Oh, it's very east to compare. Language and history of segregation mean nothing when the proportions of white and black differed dramatically. Story time yall.
Long ago, there was a vast and open land inhabited by Native Americans. When the White men arrived in boats, they killed nearly all the natives, accidentally or otherwise, with disease and slavery. When there weren't many Natives left, the white men shipped West Africans to the region as slaves. Black slaves occasionally escaped and mixed with renegade Native American enclaves, while the majority of Black slaves who never escaped commonly mixed with their European masters, willingfully or otherwise. /storytime.
See how that story literally fits both African American and Dominican history perfectly and to the dot? Now that I've established that they have the same racial ingredients, let me break it down. Black-white miscegenation was very common in AA history (I'd go so far as to say rampant) due to slave rape as well as concensual mixing in northern cities among free blacks, and while black-white mixing was not as common as in the DR, the African component of the Dominican population was greater than that of the American south. Thus, since all the white was mixed into the DR pop and only some of the white was added into the AA pop, you end up with similar proportions of Black, White, and minor Native (which is only present in 15% of Dominicans, doubtfully much more than AA's) influence in certain regions. The tests used for both results only measured mtDNA, which is a shoddy indicator of the presence of the DNA in populations as a whole anyway because it ignores the infinitely more important autosomal DNA as well as the yDNA. The proportions may not be exact, but they're damn similar. And note, I said racial proportions, not ethnic ones, I'm very aware that they weren't the same Whites, Natives or Black groups in either case, but I wasn't discussing ethnic groups in my statement.
PWNED.
Originally Posted by Caine
A Dominican-American who embraces a Black identity will get corn rows, and the Dominican who suffers under the delusion that he's White or not Afro-Hispanic will slosh on glopfuls of gel to get it curly in the least Black-looking way he can possibly get it. Don't even get me started on the delusion of "good hair" (straight) vs "bad hair" (typical Black-descendant hair).
How many Dominican men actually gel their hair compared to African American men? Do you have any numbers? Further, hairstyles don’t say anything definitively about everyone’s identity.
Originally Posted by Caine
It aint for nothing that Americans think Dominicans are all weird as fuck and very confused, looking Negroid and claiming White or Indian.
Americans feel that way about anyone with visible African ancestry who doesn’t identify as black. Also, most Americans, who don’t live near or around Dominican communities in the U.S., assume all Dominicans look like Dominicans who play major league baseball, and almost everyone in the U.S. has a willful misunderstanding of what “Indo” means in the Dominican context.
Originally Posted by Caine
Just wanna say one thing here. Just because I was born and raised in America, and thus obviously consider myself Black by America's racial standards (as 80-90% of Dominicans would be identified by the average American) doesn't make me any less Dominican, or proud of it. I'm not proud of being "hispanic" because being able to speak a language is nothing to be proud of, a freaking parakeet can do it.
Originally Posted by Caine
I leave the rest to them, and America identifies me, as well as nearly every one of us, as Black. I don't mind, it's a good thing. The only place in the world where they aren't universally considered Blacks is in the Caribbean, even the rest of Latin America will never call us Indios, Mestizos, or White, simply Mulato or Negro.
You were born and raised in the South and reside on the West Coast, so it’s safe to assume that your location influences your opinion. In New York and other East Coast areas where there are sizable Dominican communities, Dominicans as a group are generally not perceived as black, by both blacks and whites. This was certainly the case in my high school and in my neighborhood in the Bronx. Dominicans were seen as people who generally downplayed their African ancestry though (for those who cared), but still not seen as black. A Dominican who looks like you would be seen as a non-black “Spanish person” to most people with whom I went to school. In fact, even Dominicans with very obvious or seemingly predominant African ancestry, like Zoe Saldana, wouldn’t be seen as black, regardless of how they self-identified. I chalk this up to there being established Puerto Rican communities in these areas that are culturally similar to Dominicans and the overlap in appearance between the two. Speaking from personal experience, many people who are not Latino and are familiar with Dominican and Puerto Rican communities along the East Coast can usually tell the difference between your average Dominican and your average African American. Telling the difference between Dominicans and Puerto Ricans is sometimes more difficult. Your average Dominican in my high school looked like the children from the documentary “Mad Hot Ballroom”, with the exception that those of predominant African ancestry were slightly more represented in my school; not radically different from Puerto Ricans.
It works this way: There is overlap in phenotypes among African Americans, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in the tri-state area, but there is more overlap between Dominicans and Puerto Ricans than there is between either of those two and African Americans. African Americans and Dominicans overlap more in phenotype than African Americans and Puerto Ricans. Perhaps this state of affairs is due to selectivity in immigration that favors the fairer skinned from the Dominican Republic. I don’t know, but given the many fair skinned/ambiguous-looking people you see in many poor and working class Dominican communities in New York and New Jersey, I doubt it.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 15:37 ----------
I'm wondering, do people like Palenqueros, Amerindians, Garifuna, ect. fit your pan-Latin American equation?
They probobly don't.
Long ago, there was a vast and open land inhabited by Native Americans. When the White men arrived in boats, they killed nearly all the natives, accidentally or otherwise, with disease and slavery. When there weren't many Natives left, the white men shipped West Africans to the region as slaves. Black slaves occasionally escaped and mixed with renegade Native American enclaves, while the majority of Black slaves who never escaped commonly mixed with their European masters, willingfully or otherwise. /storytime.
See how that story literally fits both African American and Dominican history perfectly and to the dot? Now that I've established that they have the same racial ingredients, let me break it down. PWNED
Let me remind you of your exact claims:
do you know anything about African Americans? You do know they're all mixed, often to the 50% level or more with white and/or Native American blood,
The vast majority of African Americans are mixed, with the same racial ingredients, in very similar proportions.
African Americans actually have more Amerind blood as a population than Dominicans.
^
Your Barney style story tellying did nothing to support these opinionated claims and neither does adding 'PWNED" make it any more valid. Not even the most fanatical Afrocentrist would make these claims.
Just to make it crystal clear to you:
- Native Amerindian ancestry has been greatly exaggerated in African Americans.
- African Americans do not have more Amerind. ancestry than Dominicans.
- African Americans are not 'all mixed'.
- African Americans are not mixed in similar proportions to Dominicans.
I highly doubt anyone in this thread would agree with your claims. And I stand by mines which you cannot refute via simplistic story telling. There's much more to ethnohistory than your dumbed down version of it.
I live in the tri-state area myself, and i am always around wash. heights, bronx, jersey. I think there is an overgeneralization of African-american looks, being Dominican in these areas i have been mistaken for Afro-americans numerous times and almost never for puertorican, its very rare, i got puertorican once in my life, and one other time puertorican + AA. But whoever doesnt think i'm Dominican tends to think i'm AA, even some Dominicans from here, some of them my color! LOL. I guess its my phenotype i'm not sure.
I think that Puertoricans dont get mistaken with dominicans often its rare, to most people in these areas from my experiences Puertoricans tend to be stereotyped with the Daddy Yankee Phenotype for men, and women for that J'lo type, being very light skinned with curly hair and a large backside. Whenever puertoricans here get as much as brown they are automatically stereotyped to be Dominican. So if anything Dominicans almost never get mistaken for puertorican unless they fit that daddy yankee look, but Afro-Puertoricans tend to be confused for Dominicans specifically, as well as any person of African ancestry who has a spanish surname, if you look black and have a last name liek Gonzales, Vasquez, etc you will automatically be assumed Dominican and at times Cuban. Being a Dominican who often gets mistaken for Afro-american i think that dominicans with phenotypes that overlap with Afro-americans will get mistaken for AA.
I dont think the difference is so much in the percentage of mix, but rather the components of the mix.
AA = Pred Sudanid types with Minor Bantu influneces in the south
Dominicans = Primarily Bantu with minor Sudanid influences
On the Native American side:
Dominicans = Primarily Brasilid/Centralid type,
AA = Primarily that North-east American type of native with longer noses, etc.
On the European/Middle Eastern side:
AA = Primarily Nordic/Atlantic/etc
Dr = Primarily Med/Arabid
I think in some areas of the u.s AA's have similar mixture to Dominicans, and theres not too big of a difference, but even if they where equal Dominicans would still have a different look because of different components.
For example there are more Jabao's (light skinned with tight hair) per capita in the U.S then in D.R, because fo the nordic influence, the med influence in d.r produces darker skin and softer hair.
How many Dominican men actually gel their hair compared to African American men? Do you have any numbers? Further, hairstyles don’t say anything definitively about everyone’s identity.
Americans feel that way about anyone with visible African ancestry who doesn’t identify as black. Also, most Americans, who don’t live near or around Dominican communities in the U.S., assume all Dominicans look like Dominicans who play major league baseball, and almost everyone in the U.S. has a willful misunderstanding of what “Indo” means in the Dominican context.
You were born and raised in the South and reside on the West Coast, so it’s safe to assume that your location influences your opinion. In New York and other East Coast areas where there are sizable Dominican communities, Dominicans as a group are generally not perceived as black, by both blacks and whites. This was certainly the case in my high school and in my neighborhood in the Bronx. Dominicans were seen as people who generally downplayed their African ancestry though (for those who cared), but still not seen as black. A Dominican who looks like you would be seen as a non-black “Spanish person” to most people with whom I went to school. In fact, even Dominicans with very obvious or seemingly predominant African ancestry, like Zoe Saldana, wouldn’t be seen as black, regardless of how they self-identified. I chalk this up to there being established Puerto Rican communities in these areas that are culturally similar to Dominicans and the overlap in appearance between the two. Speaking from personal experience, many people who are not Latino and are familiar with Dominican and Puerto Rican communities along the East Coast can usually tell the difference between your average Dominican and your average African American. Telling the difference between Dominicans and Puerto Ricans is sometimes more difficult. Your average Dominican in my high school looked like the children from the documentary “Mad Hot Ballroom”, with the exception that those of predominant African ancestry were slightly more represented in my school; not radically different from Puerto Ricans.
It works this way: There is overlap in phenotypes among African Americans, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in the tri-state area, but there is more overlap between Dominicans and Puerto Ricans than there is between either of those two and African Americans. African Americans and Dominicans overlap more in phenotype than African Americans and Puerto Ricans. Perhaps this state of affairs is due to selectivity in immigration that favors the fairer skinned from the Dominican Republic. I don’t know, but given the many fair skinned/ambiguous-looking people you see in many poor and working class Dominican communities in New York and New Jersey, I doubt it.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 15:37 ----------
They probobly don't.
Due to the fact that I am Dominican, it is typical while in a debate for anything I say to be dismissed as mere wishful storytelling.
Dominican immigrants to the USA come mostly from the poorest socioeconomic sectors. I didn't even bother to addresses CAINS assumption that they were 'lighter skinned' because they were the only ones that could afford a plane ticket which is just simply very naive and uninformed.
Since we're both from the same area, your observations are 100% on point. And they support my own personal observations. I believe that I recall something about Latinos being somehow excluded from OneDroppism on that other site we both know. I also had the same thought, that Puerto Ricans probably 'prepd the way for ambigous looking foreigners on the East Coast. And if I were to share some of the personal observation I've seen of Dominicans in North Carolina, it would surprise many because it sure did to me.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 21:37 ----------
I live in the tri-state area myself, and i am always around wash. heights, bronx, jersey. I think there is an overgeneralization of African-american looks, being Dominican in these areas i have been mistaken for Afro-americans numerous times and almost never for puertorican, its very rare, i got puertorican once in my life, and one other time puertorican + AA. But whoever doesnt think i'm Dominican tends to think i'm AA, even some Dominicans from here, some of them my color! LOL. I guess its my phenotype i'm not sure.
I think that Puertoricans dont get mistaken with dominicans often its rare, to most people in these areas from my experiences Puertoricans tend to be stereotyped with the Daddy Yankee Phenotype for men, and women for that J'lo type, being very light skinned with curly hair and a large backside. Whenever puertoricans here get as much as brown they are automatically stereotyped to be Dominican. So if anything Dominicans almost never get mistaken for puertorican unless they fit that daddy yankee look, but Afro-Puertoricans tend to be confused for Dominicans specifically, as well as any person of African ancestry who has a spanish surname, if you look black and have a last name liek Gonzales, Vasquez, etc you will automatically be assumed Dominican and at times Cuban. Being a Dominican who often gets mistaken for Afro-american i think that dominicans with phenotypes that overlap with Afro-americans will get mistaken for AA.
I dont think the difference is so much in the percentage of mix, but rather the components of the mix.
AA = Pred Sudanid types with Minor Bantu influneces in the south
Dominicans = Primarily Bantu with minor Sudanid influences
On the Native American side:
Dominicans = Primarily Brasilid/Centralid type,
AA = Primarily that North-east American type of native with longer noses, etc.
On the European/Middle Eastern side:
AA = Primarily Nordic/Atlantic/etc
Dr = Primarily Med/Arabid
I think in some areas of the u.s AA's have similar mixture to Dominicans, and theres not too big of a difference, but even if they where equal Dominicans would still have a different look because of different components.
For example there are more Jabao's (light skinned with tight hair) per capita in the U.S then in D.R, because fo the nordic influence, the med influence in d.r produces darker skin and softer hair.
Lemba, I live in ther tri-state area and I see people confusing PR's with DR's all the time. The one generalizatino we can all agree on is that as a group DR's will have darkers skinned people on average than PR's.
And as far as even the dark-skinned DR's, I've had plenty of African Americans tell me there's somethiing about their look that makes them look 'Dominican' although I don't know precisely what it is they mean.
For a very public and well known example, the guys from Aventura can easily pass for both and they're pretty typical.
In my particular case, whenever I go to the Arab section in Paterson, NJ I'll get confused for Arab, in particular Egyptian. Please note that the Arabs here now all get fade cuts at the same barber shops, and dress very Urban. And plenty of Dominican bodegeros look similar to Yemeni storeowners. There's a very popular article by a Domincian lady on how she is perceived depending on where she goes in the world. As far as my family in Charlotte, NC, you ain't going to believe what I've seen with my own eyes. Perception is much more fluid than what academics think it is.
And and one more thing, Central American blacks are perceived to be 'super black' by DR's & PR's. This is what I've observed with the common lay person. There is a stereotype of someone who is of very strong African phenotype (no, much stronger than an African American) with a Spanish surname and a funny accent is 'un Centro Americano negro', usually Panamanian or Honduran. From my own obervations here, it does seem that they display very little outward non-SSA admixture. Much more African ancestry than the average African American.
Since we're both from the same area, your observations are 100% on point. And they support my own personal observations. I believe that I recall something about Latinos being somehow excluded from OneDroppism on that other site we both know. I also had the same thought, that Puerto Ricans probably 'prepd the way for ambigous looking foreigners on the East Coast. And if I were to share some of the personal observation I've seen of Dominicans in North Carolina, it would surprise many because it sure did to me.
I'm beginning to see this in Northern Virginia, Southern Maryland and Washington DC, which is the area in which I currently reside. There are non-trivial numbers of Dominicans and Puerto Ricans down here- some are transplants from Jersey and New York-and I often wonder what blacks and whites (the former especially) make of them.
IMO, Lemba looks very Dominican. I'll say though that he is more likely to get "lost" down here than in New York. Personally, I find there are more African Americans down here who have his look. I suspect it's due to more Amerindian admixture in the black American population. There are alot of African Americans I come across down here who can be very ambiguos or who exhibit what I consider strong Amerindian ancestry.
I'm beginning to see this in Northern Virginia, Southern Maryland and Washington DC, which is the area in which I currently reside. There are non-trivial numbers of Dominicans and Puerto Ricans down here- some are transplants from Jersey and New York-and I often wonder what blacks and whites (the former especially) make of them.
IMO, Lemba looks very Dominican. I'll say though that he is more likely to get "lost" down here than in New York. Personally, I find there are more African Americans down here who have his look. I suspect it's due to more Amerindian admixture in the black American population. There are alot of African Americans I come across down here who can be very ambiguos or who exhibit what I consider strong Amerindian ancestry.
I often speak with my family down there about these things (they know I'm always interested in those types of things). Some of it is surprising. For example, I would've assumed that one of my female cousins, who to me has very noticeable African influenced phenotype, would be just assumed to be African American, but she was called 'Mexican' by Aframs she works with.. This despite the fact that she doesn't look at all similar to the Mexican mestizos in that area. She was born and raised here, so she if very Americanized. To get a mental image of her, picture someone of similar complexion to Zoe Saldana, long black hair, but straight featured. Some of my other relatives get confused for East Indians, despite the fact that to me they don't look it, especially in body structure. I had one aunt at a government office asked directly if she was either black or white by an African American lady after looking at her name. I'm sure everyone has their own personal stories. In my opinion, I think many of them are a bit surprised about how 'African Americanized' some of these new migrants are. Meaning, people from the tri-state.
Funny (I know I'm way off topic now), I often mistake some Dominicans I come across for "Horners". There's alot of Ethiopians and Eritreans down here in the DC metro area.
Malanga isn't native to Cuba though and was brought to Cuba from West Africa. In English it's called Taro root.
.
First, Malanga is a native american vegetable, that belongs to an American family of vegetables whose botanical name is Xanthosoma.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Cocoyams_for_sale.jpg/734px-Cocoyams_for_sale.jpg
Second, the Taro is a plant domesticated by natives of the Highlands of New Guinea, since thousand of years ago. Others said it was in Indonesian, but in any case is not African.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/TaroAKL.jpg/400px-TaroAKL.jpg
I'm talking about who contributed to the vegetation of Cuba, not where the crop originated from, Plantanos and Okra were brought to Cuba via Africa.
Do you think Indians brought Plantanos to Latin America, lol?
.
I agree with that.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 20:59 ----------
I disgree with Lemba on this point. From what I can remember, Lemba had a rather 'unique' point of view due to his own personal history.
I agree. I bet he is not an average Dominican.
Dominican Republic is a very Latino/Hispanic country, its connected to LatinAmerica from its very inception. The number one place Dominicans migrate to (legallly & illegally) after the USA are Spain & PR. And these relationships are getting stronger and stronger, all one has to do is look at all the ties being tightened with Venezuela, Colombia, & now Brazil. If there were more Dominican here, I'm almost sure they would agree. And here in the USA that is the number one panethnic group they self-identify as and the studies prove it.
I agree with that, too.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 21:07 ----------
Oh, it's very east to compare. Language and history of segregation mean nothing when the proportions of white and black differed dramatically. Story time yall.
Long ago, there was a vast and open land inhabited by Native Americans. When the White men arrived in boats, they killed nearly all the natives, accidentally or otherwise, with disease and slavery. When there weren't many Natives left, the white men shipped West Africans to the region as slaves. Black slaves occasionally escaped and mixed with renegade Native American enclaves, while the majority of Black slaves who never escaped commonly mixed with their European masters, willingfully or otherwise. /storytime.
.
That's false. Intermarriage between Indians and Europeans was the main reason for the destruction an assimilation of the Natives in the Caribbean. And that started long time before the first Blacks were brought to the Spanish colonies. So, no wonder that the Amerindian genetics is high in Dominican Republic, but particularly in Puerto Rico. In Cuba... well, I have no idea.
See how that story literally fits both African American and Dominican history perfectly and to the dot? Now that I've established that they have the same racial ingredients, let me break it down. Black-white miscegenation was very common in AA history (I'd go so far as to say rampant) due to slave rape as well as concensual mixing in northern cities among free blacks, and while black-white mixing was not as common as in the DR, the African component of the Dominican population was greater than that of the American south. Thus, since all the white was mixed into the DR pop and only some of the white was added into the AA pop, you end up with similar proportions of Black, White, and minor Native (which is only present in 15% of Dominicans, doubtfully much more than AA's) influence in certain regions. The tests used for both results only measured mtDNA, which is a shoddy indicator of the presence of the DNA in populations as a whole anyway because it ignores the infinitely more important autosomal DNA as well as the yDNA. The proportions may not be exact, but they're damn similar. And note, I said racial proportions, not ethnic ones, I'm very aware that they weren't the same Whites, Natives or Black groups in either case, but I wasn't discussing ethnic groups in my statement.
PWNED.
Well, Native American genetics survive in D.R., no matter all the odds. That's what matters, anyways.
jonboyclem
2010-01-22, 00:10
I'm beginning to see this in Northern Virginia, Southern Maryland and Washington DC, which is the area in which I currently reside. There are non-trivial numbers of Dominicans and Puerto Ricans down here- some are transplants from Jersey and New York-and I often wonder what blacks and whites (the former especially) make of them.
IMO, Lemba looks very Dominican. I'll say though that he is more likely to get "lost" down here than in New York. Personally, I find there are more African Americans down here who have his look. I suspect it's due to more Amerindian admixture in the black American population. There are alot of African Americans I come across down here who can be very ambiguos or who exhibit what I consider strong Amerindian ancestry.
Here in Los Angeles, I would have assumed Lemba was just another light skinned AA until otherwise because there is very few Afro-Latinos in Los Angeles. There's also a grip of Louisiana Creoles in Los Angeles who looks like Lemba or has an ambigous phenotype with fair skin due to their Tri-Racial(French/Bantid/Sudanid/NA) mix.
And as far as even the dark-skinned DR's, I've had plenty of African Americans tell me there's somethiing about their look that makes them look 'Dominican' although I don't know precisely what it is they mean.
It's the Spanish/Taino/Bantu mixture that stands out in Dominicans.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-22, 00:13
So, do you mean neither Spaniards nor Indians knew how to boil food? :( Who could believe that.
And yes, Blacks developed several recipees in the Caribbean, wich is obvious. Spaniards did it too. But the basic materials came from Spain and local production; not from Africa.
By the way, Black slaves in the Caribbean invented Rum... not Africans.
I see your point, and did not mean the ingredients themselves more so the dishes made from them such as Mangu (from the African Fufu).
I'm beginning to see this in Northern Virginia, Southern Maryland and Washington DC, which is the area in which I currently reside. There are non-trivial numbers of Dominicans and Puerto Ricans down here- some are transplants from Jersey and New York-and I often wonder what blacks and whites (the former especially) make of them.
IMO, Lemba looks very Dominican. I'll say though that he is more likely to get "lost" down here than in New York. Personally, I find there are more African Americans down here who have his look. I suspect it's due to more Amerindian admixture in the black American population. There are alot of African Americans I come across down here who can be very ambiguos or who exhibit what I consider strong Amerindian ancestry.
I live in a region where pure Amerindians exist. I don't find Lemba to have an Amerindian look at all. I don't find African Americans to look Amerindians either. Only a few cases really look mixed. However, I found that some people like the Caribs of Dominica and many people of Dominican Republic, Cuba and Puerto Rico has a "sambo", Afroindigenous, look. In Puerto Rico, the mestizo look is more common, but in D.R. and P.R. you also find some people that has that look. Something you don't find among A.A.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-22, 00:16
Funny (I know I'm way off topic now), I often mistake some Dominicans I come across for "Horners". There's alot of Ethiopians and Eritreans down here in the DC metro area.
I don't know if you meant it this way, but it's sort of the same as my experience with certain segments of the Dominican-American population (which vary from my own family) and the Puerto Rican American population. That is I see many dark yet "thin" facial feature Dominicans and many light skinned "thick" facial feature Puerto Ricans. Of course I also see everything in between for both groups.
I see your point, and did not mean the ingredients themselves more so the dishes made from them such as Mangu (from the African Fufu).
Indeed. I never have doubt about the creativity and intelligence of Blacks, but those contributions to the kitchen were done in the Americas, with American rough materials and local influences. Not in Africa.
For instance, the contribution of Blacks to colonial painting and sculpture was done in the Western cannon, not in the African. In the same way, the banjo was invented by North American Blacks in the U.S., and was not an import of Africa. Rum was also invented by Blacks in the Caribbean, and it was a drink unknown in Africa.
My point is that give the credit to whom they deserve it. In this case the credit is for the Blacks of the Americans, not to Africans. Simple, isnt?
yall talking about race now instead of culture lol. Racially speaking I agree with Lemba, CAONABO and G-man.
Im also a fellow Tri State area resident :lol:As far as overlapping goes I would say it's like this...
Dominican true mulattos to light skinned triracial overlap more with Puerto Ricans of the same type
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7906/ldb5d457bbe5a7a67631bd3.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/ldb5d457bbe5a7a67631bd3.jpg/)
^^Dominican
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3662/l59253c8f750fda155f0973.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/l59253c8f750fda155f0973.jpg/)
^^ Puerto Rican
.
.
Pure African to true mulatto Dominicans and Puerto Ricans overlap with AfroAmericans of similar admx levels
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/7811/domsz.gif (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/domsz.gif/)
^^Dominicans
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2408/lalavazquez52189690056.jpg
^^Puerto Ricans
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6463/aa5z.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/aa5z.jpg/)
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1098/aa10o.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/aa10o.jpg/)
^^AfroAmericans
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 00:27
I live in the tri-state area myself, and i am always around wash. heights, bronx, jersey. I think there is an overgeneralization of African-american looks, being Dominican in these areas i have been mistaken for Afro-americans numerous times and almost never for puertorican, its very rare, i got puertorican once in my life, and one other time puertorican + AA. But whoever doesnt think i'm Dominican tends to think i'm AA, even some Dominicans from here, some of them my color! LOL. I guess its my phenotype i'm not sure.
I think that Puertoricans dont get mistaken with dominicans often its rare, to most people in these areas from my experiences Puertoricans tend to be stereotyped with the Daddy Yankee Phenotype for men, and women for that J'lo type, being very light skinned with curly hair and a large backside. Whenever puertoricans here get as much as brown they are automatically stereotyped to be Dominican. So if anything Dominicans almost never get mistaken for puertorican unless they fit that daddy yankee look, but Afro-Puertoricans tend to be confused for Dominicans specifically, as well as any person of African ancestry who has a spanish surname, if you look black and have a last name liek Gonzales, Vasquez, etc you will automatically be assumed Dominican and at times Cuban. Being a Dominican who often gets mistaken for Afro-american i think that dominicans with phenotypes that overlap with Afro-americans will get mistaken for AA.
I dont think the difference is so much in the percentage of mix, but rather the components of the mix.
AA = Pred Sudanid types with Minor Bantu influneces in the south
Dominicans = Primarily Bantu with minor Sudanid influences
On the Native American side:
Dominicans = Primarily Brasilid/Centralid type,
AA = Primarily that North-east American type of native with longer noses, etc.
On the European/Middle Eastern side:
AA = Primarily Nordic/Atlantic/etc
Dr = Primarily Med/Arabid
I think in some areas of the u.s AA's have similar mixture to Dominicans, and theres not too big of a difference, but even if they where equal Dominicans would still have a different look because of different components.
For example there are more Jabao's (light skinned with tight hair) per capita in the U.S then in D.R, because fo the nordic influence, the med influence in d.r produces darker skin and softer hair.
i agree. im also from new york and grew up in the bronx and brooklyn. most of the time my mother gets confused for a dominican. its often that people outside of the community differintiate dominicans from puerto ricans by color. i once ignorantly said when i was younger "dominicans and puerto ricans are the same" and a korean guy in my discussion said no dominicans look black and puerto ricans look like dark italians in fitteds.
although new york has a big black central american population (panamanians,hondurans,guatamalans,even costa ricans)
the black central americans also for the most part establish themselsh as being apart of the african american community more than the latin (tho most i know speak spanish better than puerto ricans whoa re famous for destroying spanish lol)
theres barely any central american populations in new york other than the blacks, so alot of people assume that black people from honduras and guatamala are the majority there and get suprised when they meet a mestizo.
alot of people i know assume black people with spanish names are honduran, panamanian or dominicans
but dominicans are usually stereotyped as looking like light skinned black people
I live in the tri-state area myself, and i am always around wash. heights, bronx, jersey. I think there is an overgeneralization of African-american looks, being Dominican in these areas i have been mistaken for Afro-americans numerous times and almost never for puertorican, its very rare, i got puertorican once in my life, and one other time puertorican + AA. But whoever doesnt think i'm Dominican tends to think i'm AA, even some Dominicans from here, some of them my color! LOL. I guess its my phenotype i'm not sure.
Here is an example
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5117/minusp50213916.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/minusp50213916.jpg/)
These are all Dominican but
guy on the left = pass Dominican and Puerto Rican but not black american
guy in the middle = most wouldn't take him for Puerto Rican but he could pass for Dominican (which he is) or Black American
Guy on the right= One of the type that could pass for all 3
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9301/afa18.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/afa18.jpg/)
^^a black american that could pass for all 3
yall talking about race now instead of culture lol. Racially speaking I agree with Lemba, CAONABO and G-man.
Im also a fellow Tri State area resident :lol:As far as overlapping goes I would say it's like this...
Dominican true mulattos to light skinned triracial overlap more with Puerto Ricans of the same type
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7906/ldb5d457bbe5a7a67631bd3.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/ldb5d457bbe5a7a67631bd3.jpg/)
^^Dominican
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3662/l59253c8f750fda155f0973.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/l59253c8f750fda155f0973.jpg/)
^^ Puerto Rican
These guys could be from any country of Latin America, actually. They have the "mestizo" looks.
They even have the low density beards, typical of Amerindians...
Mangu is definetly of Bantu origin, lol i heard the English corruption of it supposedly it was Man Good, but the fact is Mangu has been in our language before Americans where anywhere near D.R, plus it has basic Bantu and Mande type prefixes. Mangu (Ma Ngu) just like Mango (Ma Ngo) and Mangulina (Ma Ngu Lina) the lina being spanish influence ontop of Bantu.
Here are some Dominican words alone of African origin. Theres many more, but just something i know off the top of my head.
Mangu - Mashed Plantains (Bantu or mande)
Mango - (bantu or mande)
Mofongo - Mashed plantains with meat stuffing (bantu)
Mondongo - Beef Tripe Soup (Bantu)
Mandinga - name of a barrio (Mande)
Zape aka Zape Gato (from the Zape people of Sierra Leone)
KiJombo (Bantu)
Kutuko - It means children, my grandma uses this word (Bantu)
KuKurullo - Like a toddler (Bantu with a spanish ending)
Lambi - Conch food (Bantu)
ñampear - Take a bite (Efik/Ekpwe)
ñango - lazy (Efik/Ekpwe)
Monga - a person that limps (Bantu)
Mayimbe - a badass (Bantu or Mande)
BaKini - ceremony for children who die (Mande or Yoruba)
Mani - In this case not nut, but a vodoun party (Bantu or Mande)
Bembe - Large lower lip (Bantu)
Bembetear - Talk alot (bantu + spanish ending)
Zaperoko - A big mess (Zape)
Abanban - Hard headed (unsure of origin)
I am from San Francisco de Macoris, Dei Barrio Jobo Bonito, thats eastern cibao.
@Caonabo, i do agree that it has become rapidly more in contact with other spanish speakers, specially venezuelans, mexicans, puertoricans becuase there are MANY dominicans who have migrated there, and yes many domincians now live in spain mirroring how many haitians live in france, and jamaicans live in england. There are also alot of dominicans in italy for some odd reason, lol. There are Dominicans in Argentina as well now, but all of these migrations are largely post 1960s (American invasion). Before then Dominicans where alot more isolated due to the Campesino (Countryside) nature of the D.R. The D.R was extremely rural until the late 70s. This was a great way to preserve culture. Boyer was the main propagator of this mentality, which is why D.R was not a huge production island , ala Cuba style, and intead everyone owned some land.
There are bigger diasporic Haitians and Jamaicans since they have the largest population in the French and British Caribbean. There are more Haitians in the USA and Canada than in France. People from Martinique and Guadeloupe make up the biggest Caribbean population in France. The British Caribbean had closer ties with Britain than the Spanish Caribbean to Spain. That's why there are more people from Puerto Rico(a USA territory) in New York than in Spain.Same as Dominicans. Many people from Jamaica,Trinidad,St.Lucia go there to study Law since our Legal system is similar. We have quite a few British expats in the Bahamas,Bermuda and Cayman as well. There are not a large % of Dominicans in Spain.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 00:35
Yeah... maybe a bit but I think he looks different enough, and I don't mean just pigmentation, I think I'm more robust
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af332/arbin_420/foster2.jpg
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=501&d=1264025570
I think he could be brachycephalic but I'm not sure
what do you mean by brachycephalic? i assume it has to do with length?
and am i robust or enfantile?
i cans orta see a resemblance. but i think i have a more olive comlexion, also our eyes and nose are different
Here is an example
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5117/minusp50213916.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/minusp50213916.jpg/)
These are all Dominican but
guy on the left = pass Dominican and Puerto Rican but not black american
guy in the middle = most would take him for Puerto Rican but he could pass for Dominican (which he is) or Black American
Guy on the right= One of the type that could pass for all 3
...
Agreed.
Decimator
2010-01-22, 00:40
what do you mean by brachycephalic? i assume it has to do with length?
and am i robust or enfantile?
i cans orta see a resemblance. but i think i have a more olive comlexion, also our eyes and nose are different
Brachycephalic has to do with head lenght.
Someone who has a vaulted occiput is dolichocephalic, long headed like me.
brachicephalic are people who have a flat occiput
mesocephalic is somewhere in the middle
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 00:46
Are you sure about there not being a large population of dominicans in spain? i deffinately met alot when i went to madrid,
its sad but has anyone seen the movie princesas?
when i went i barely saw any black people around the city, but the prostitutes were overwhemingly africans and foreign born latins *dominicans*( who i actually got chased down the street by). There was also alot of racist remarks in normal conversation there
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 19:55 ----------
These guys could be from any country of Latin America, actually. They have the "mestizo" looks.
They even have the low density beards, typical of Amerindians...
the dominican guy has a very caribe look,
the puerto rican guy(probably triracial) looks like he could pass for a mestizo country
ive deffinately met a few puerto ricans who look like him
is it possible that a certain mixture of european and african can create the mestizo look?
...
is it possible that a certain mixture of european and african can create the mestizo look?
Don't believe so, at least the European or the African has some Central Asian blood in them.
Are you sure about there not being a large population of dominicans in spain? i deffinately met alot when i went to madrid,
its sad but has anyone seen the movie princesas?
when i went i barely saw any black people around the city, but the prostitutes were overwhemingly africans and foreign born latins *dominicans*( who i actually got chased down the street by). There was also alot of racist remarks in normal conversation there
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 19:55 ----------
the dominican guy has a very caribe look,
the puerto rican guy(probably triracial) looks like he could pass for a mestizo country
ive deffinately met a few puerto ricans who look like him
is it possible that a certain mixture of european and african can create the mestizo look?
My friend who is Dominican told me Spaniards were racist. I have never heard about Dominicans in Spain. But you might be right.
Dominicans and Ecuatorians are very common in Spain. I bet they make most the Latinos there.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 01:24
yeah
im not racist im just telling you what i saw
but alot of ecuadoreans are house keepers in spain
alot of immigrants in spain are from west africa(senegal,angola,equatorial guinea,nigeria)north africa(morrocco,algeria) philipines and latin america
largest latin american populations are mexicans,ecuadorians,argentines,cubans,dominicans, chileans,uruguayans
alot of latin americans in europe are of european heritage and for the most part have a good economic situation n europe
while ecuadoreans, africans,arabs,philipinos and dominicans are from rural areas in there country with less education and many are illeagal
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 20:27 ----------
also many are not white
i dont think there is a large puerto rican population in spain? but i know alot of spaniards of recent immigration live in puerto rico and have children there
This event was very famous in Spain. An attack to a teen ecuatorian in the Barcelona's subway.
fD4JU3NE9Co
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 01:34
alot of cubans that escaped cuba ended up movng to spain as well as the u.s
alot of cubas white population is of recent spanish immigration from all different parts of spain including basque areas i believe?
there are more people in france from martinique, i agree but there is still a very sizeable hatian population, there are even french schools in haiti
Decimator
2010-01-22, 01:36
Are there sizeable numbers of Mexicans in Spain? I didn't know that..
i dont think there is a large puerto rican population in spain? but i know alot of spaniards of recent immigration live in puerto rico and have children there
What qualifies as recent immigration? My Grandmother, and her parents immigrated to puerto rico in the 1930s, if that counts.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 01:41
This event was very famous in Spain. An attack to a teen ecuatorian in the Barcelona's subway.
fD4JU3NE9Co
what a douche bag! theres alot of attacks happening in long island against ecuadoreans and central americans who make up the majority of latin immigrants there
the most famous was by a group of teenage white boys (one was even puerto rican)
the puerto rican guys sister was on the news and was like "no no my brothers not like that, he cant be , hes puerto rican"
i was like wow
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 20:44 ----------
yes 1930s is recent. alot of new yorkers of immigrant populations grandparents moved here during the 30s to 50s
and thats considered fairly recent because they still retain their old culture
are you puerto rican? like do you or your family consider yourselves as such?
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 20:45 ----------
What qualifies as recent immigration? My Grandmother, and her parents immigrated to puerto rico in the 1930s, if that counts.
yes 1930s is recent. alot of new yorkers of immigrant populations grandparents moved here during the 30s to 50s
and thats considered fairly recent because they still retain their old culture
are you puerto rican? like do you or your family consider yourselves as such?
EiCibaeño
2010-01-22, 01:55
The reason for a lot of Spanish hatred towards Latins, or for instance Dominicans, is usually due to the crime they bring. While it could be racism outright I'm sure the socio-economic factors play a large part.
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 21:01 ----------
Indeed. I never have doubt about the creativity and intelligence of Blacks, but those contributions to the kitchen were done in the Americas, with American rough materials and local influences. Not in Africa.
For instance, the contribution of Blacks to colonial painting and sculpture was done in the Western cannon, not in the African. In the same way, the banjo was invented by North American Blacks in the U.S., and was not an import of Africa. Rum was also invented by Blacks in the Caribbean, and it was a drink unknown in Africa.
My point is that give the credit to whom they deserve it. In this case the credit is for the Blacks of the Americans, not to Africans. Simple, isnt?
Understandable, however the dish I'm pointing to specifically seems to have come directly with these Africans. However upon closer inspection there are differences and the end result of the recipe looks quite different to me, so I agree with you.
yes 1930s is recent. alot of new yorkers of immigrant populations grandparents moved here during the 30s to 50s
and thats considered fairly recent because they still retain their old culture
are you puerto rican? like do you or your family consider yourselves as such?
My Grandmother recognized as Spanish-Galician, though her father was French, immigrated to Spain then Puerto Rico with my Great Grandmother who was Spanish(Galician). My Grandfather's family was there a little longer, his father was an immigrant from Spain(Andalusia) as well, his maternal family was almost fully French from the records I have, all go back to France in the mid 1800s with the exception of a 9 times grandmother of mine who had a Spanish surname and I haven't tracked that line far at all. My Grandfather recognized as being born in Puerto Rico, though of course he left and his father was Spanish, and I don't think he felt attached to it. My Grandparents raised their children as Americans of Spanish and French ancestry, and that is what they consider themselves. They still spoke Spanish and my grandmother could speak some French too, my father speaks Spanish and I doubt it is as fluent as somebody who is bilingual as he didn't use it much. I cannot speak Spanish(or Galician or French -yet) nor do I consider myself "Hispanic" in the cultural sense of the word, though I do have ethnic origins in Iberia and a good interest in it. Basically no my family doesn't recognize as Puerto Rican, though they do recognize that it was a good part of the history. My mother is German-American with some English ancestry, so that is all different. :D
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 02:19
Thats interesting
my fathers family is from the south of puerto rico were the stock white population is. his mother came to puerto rico with her parents to a town that is historically known as a corsican town. a town were corsican,italian and french surnames number equal to spanish ones and my fathers paternal side is spanish(asturian)and french(bretagne) decent but they came to the island during the decree in the 1800s with most of the other european immigrants 16% of surnames in puerto rico are of corse or french
i consider myself american
and state puerto rico as were my grandparents are from but also tell people of my decent
i dont label myself as hispanic or latino because i have a certain issue with that word
i speak spanish fluently and french somewhat
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 21:21 ----------
most people assume im from latin america because of my last name and mixed look
but not necissarily puerto rico because i dont carry myself the way pricans are supposed to and dont have the crazy nationalistic pride lol
ima little more subtle lol
My great grandfather was Breton actually. I think he had family who immigrated to Puerto Rico and that is what motivated him. He shares the same surname with this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te%C3%B3filo_Jos%C3%A9_Jaime_Mar%C3%ADa_Le_Guillou
Also where most of my paternal grandfather's French ancestry is from - vieques.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 02:46
wow. from what ive seen of vieques most of the people look black or mulatto because of alot of british antilles immigration. i shouldlook up french immigration in that area
most french people went to the southern west coast of puerto rico(mayaguez,san german,yauco,ponce) many directly from france but a good number fled there after the black hatian revolt and some even came from new orleans
my father doesnt speak french but he doesnt really speak spanish either. he knows some basic stuff.
my mother is more into being puerto rican and speaks spanish fluently, but her family was there longer, and was racially mixed
my dads surnames are santiago biaggi
i forget the french/breton one ill get back at you when i find that one out... i feel like its actually breton but i may be thinking of a puerto rican friend o mine with that last name
According to the demographics most people recognize as white, but in reality it is probably 5-10% who have their ancestry go back to Europe. Nevertheless there is (or was) a considerable European only population enticed by the land and slaves. This guy has german ancestry for example.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/German_Rieckehoff_Sampayo_.jpg
Edit: My great grandmother(Grandfather's mother) also had a half sister who was half irish as another example of non-french ancestry.
Are you sure about there not being a large population of dominicans in spain?
Yes, there are a good number of them.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 03:09
i agree the census is wrong
i think most puerto ricans have a mostly white lineage though similar to the castizo people of chile or myself i think 40-50% are quadroon.i dont think the white population is as low as you think it is.its not uncommon to find an actual white puerto rican fairly often on the island, especially considering the history . if your going by puerto ricans in the u.s because most puerto ricans in the u.s are more mulatto, similar to how almost all cubans in the u.s are white compared to cuba itself. id say puerto ricans of european decent number at 20 to 30% and id say that actual mulattos(usually just considered black in p.r) and blacks together form 10 to 20% and the small asian minority
puerto ricans just have a homogenous culture and absorb every culture and people that comes into the island, but i dont think any of its ethnic grups are that far apart from each other in size
What would you say it was say a generation or two ago in terms of demographics?
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 03:12
many puerto ricans can trace some french ancestry back to france, its the second largest european componant on the island, but i dont think most of the people care lol
Yes, there are a good number of them.
Even though the question was for me. I didn't know there were a good number of them,maybe because I don't follow the Spanish Caribbean as much.
* Number of Dominicans residing in Spain
2006
* According to the local registry (Padrón), 60,050 people from Dominican Republic live in Spain; this number includes those immigrants with residence cards, as well as immigrants of irregular migratory status. Of these immigrants, 61% are women and 39% men (♀:61%, ♂:39%)
* 58,126 Dominicans have a valid residence card. According to data from the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, 60% are women and 40% are men. (♀: 60%; ♂: 40%)
* The difference between the number of Dominican people who appear in the registry and the number that have a valid residence card is an indicator of the number of Dominican people with irregular status: 1,924 people (3% of total residents). This percentage is low, considering a.) The Dominican community is well established in Spain and has a high development of the support networks b.) The regularization of undocumented immigrants promoted by the Spanish government in 2001 and 2005 that greatly benefitted the Dominican diaspora
http://www.un-instraw.org/en/grd/country-brief/dominican-migration-to-spain-2.html
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 03:23
i think thefirst two people look is very common in puerto rico ( the girl is american-african american,white,and native american)(the guy is italian) while the black guy is less likely to be seen but still not rare
tho i must admit it is easier to find more pure looking blacks amongst the older generations while there kids for the most part look mixed
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 03:26
What would you say it was say a generation or two ago in terms of demographics?
i dont understand what you mean?
i think thefirst two people look is very common in puerto rico ( the girl is american-african american,white,and native american)(the guy is italian) while the black guy is less likely to be seen but still not rare
tho i must admit it is easier to find more pure looking blacks amongst the older generations while there kids for the most part look mixed
Same thing goes for other races too? How much is the mestizo presence? Accumulated ancestry over time or actual taino ancestors, for example somebody saying their great grandmother was taino or something like that. I speculate that it is accumulated right? Meaning that everybody had a minute, distant, amounts and that started to build up due to the randomization and recombining of certain genes.
christianpierre
2010-01-22, 03:39
I dont really know about the taino componant. its a very touchy subject. From my view point its not very significant. most white americans have native american and to a lesser degree african admixture.i guess alot of the whites have some distant native ancestry but i really think it was outmixed by the slaves brought in later and the massive influx of whites that immigrated many times in american histry.culturally..the native taino influenced things and alot of puerto ricans have pride in that portion of their history, just like how some americans who are mixed with some native ancestry are. i dont necissarily go on that dna testing that was done on the island saying most of the island is mestizo. obviously african and europeans are much more influential on the islands culture and make up.
theres not a large immigration to the island right now. most of the people immigrating now are spaniards,dominicans,cubans,americans(alot of jews)
the last major influx of immigrants were cubans(mostly white and alot of cuba's jews),americans,jews in the 1950s
Same thing goes for other races too? How much is the mestizo presence? Accumulated ancestry over time or actual taino ancestors, for example somebody saying their great grandmother was taino or something like that. I speculate that it is accumulated right? Meaning that everybody had a minute, distant, amounts and that started to build up due to the randomization and recombining of certain genes.
In any country of Latin America the "mestizo" is simply the historical people of the land. The mixings between European and Amerindians was full at the first decades of the Spanish conquest. Almost all European males that arrived to the Americas had between one and ten Indigenous women each, depending on theirs resources. In about two generation the mestizos surpassed the number of Indigenous and European peoples.
Since then, new European immigration diluted the Euro-Amerindian admixture from 1/2 and 1/2 (as in Mexico) to 1/4 in many cases (as in Chile), and 1/8 like in Argentina or 1/16 in the U.S.
So, in Latin America there isn't really a "mestizo" ethnic group separated from the European. It is a continium that goes from very native looking to .... er... "aryan" :evilgrin:
In any country of Latin America the "mestizo" is simply the historical people of the land. The mixings between European and Amerindians was full at the first decades of the Spanish conquest. Almost all European males that arrived to the Americas had between one and ten Indigenous women each, depending on theirs resources. In about two generation the mestizos surpassed the number of Indigenous and European peoples.
Since then, new European immigration diluted the Euro-Amerindian admixture from 1/2 and 1/2 (as in Mexico) to 1/4 in many cases (as in Chile), and 1/8 like in Argentina or 1/16 in the U.S.
So, in Latin America there isn't really a "mestizo" ethnic group separated from the European. It is a continium that goes from very native looking to .... er... "aryan" :evilgrin:So basically what you're saying is that Latin Americans are all mestizos, but to different degrees?
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 12:15 ----------
Understandable, however the dish I'm pointing to specifically seems to have come directly with these Africans. However upon closer inspection there are differences and the end result of the recipe looks quite different to me, so I agree with you.
It's also called Fufu in Cuba and I've eaten Mangu and Mofongo (PR). They're all pretty much the same thing as West-African Fufu just with slight variation. The preparation of Mofongo is different though.
So basically what you're saying is that Latin Americans are all mestizos, but to different degrees?
Yes. Even in countries where whites (Argentina, Uruguay) or blacks predominate (Dominican Republic) you will always find an ancestral mestizo population.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-22, 17:20
So basically what you're saying is that Latin Americans are all mestizos, but to different degrees?
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 12:15 ----------
It's also called Fufu in Cuba and I've eaten Mangu and Mofongo (PR). They're all pretty much the same thing as West-African Fufu just with slight variation. The preparation of Mofongo is different though.
The thing that stood out about West African fufu is that it doesn't necessitate plantains like Cuban Fufu, Dominican Mangu, or Puerto Rican Mofongo. It can be made from any starchy vegetable and the outcome looks pretty different but I see where the New World blacks got the idea from as Pinguin put it.
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 12:22 ----------
Yes. Even in countries where whites (Argentina, Uruguay) or blacks predominate (Dominican Republic) you will always find an ancestral mestizo population.
Agreed. Especially in countries like Argentina were genetic studies have shown the population isn't exactly "pure" European.
While Taino blood is thinner through the Dominican Republic it can be very high (close to 30%) in areas like central North (the heart land of El Cibao) where you will see many mestizo looking Dominicans.
Yes. Even in countries where whites (Argentina, Uruguay) or blacks predominate (Dominican Republic) you will always find an ancestral mestizo population.Yes, I'll give you that, but you'll also find a solely European descendant population in every Latin American country, and not all LA countries group Mestizos with Europeans like Chile and Costa Rica do. So you can't say there is no separation between Europeans and Mestizos, because that's simply not true, and to me it just sounds like typical Mestizaje-propaganda.
Yes, I'll give you that, but you'll also find a solely European descendant population in every Latin American country, and not all LA countries group Mestizos with Europeans like Chile and Costa Rica do. So you can't say there is no separation between Europeans and Mestizos, because that's simply not true, and to me it just sounds like typical Mestizaje-propaganda.
Well, that's true. Some countries still have some deep divide between Indian or Indian-mestizos and "whites". For instance, in Bolivia and Peru that divide exist. But that's not true in mine at least, or in many other countries like Costa Rica, Paraguay, etc.
The thing that stood out about West African fufu is that it doesn't necessitate plantains like Cuban Fufu, Dominican Mangu, or Puerto Rican Mofongo. It can be made from any starchy vegetable and the outcome looks pretty different but I see where the New World blacks got the idea from as Pinguin put it. OK. I see what you mean.
Agreed. Especially in countries like Argentina were genetic studies have shown the population isn't exactly "pure" European.
While Taino blood is thinner through the Dominican Republic it can be very high (close to 30%) in areas like central North (the heart land of El Cibao) where you will see many mestizo looking Dominicans.
I don't disagree. It's apparent in some of these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsVUAqRzy90
The video seems subjective/bias, but I'm using it only to point out some of the phenotypes that seem very Amerindian influenced. Honestly, I can't say I know more than two Cubans who look as Indigenous as some of those people. The ones who have Amerindian features tend to favour to the African or European side more (depending on what they're mixed with).
The video seems subjective/bias, but I'm using it only to point out some of the phenotypes that seem very Amerindian influenced.
The video maker's point (I know the guy) is that you can't point to any one region in the DR and claim that the phenotypes are representative of the country as a whole. DRs are tri-racial in different proportions from one region to the next. Don't know if that's true, as I've never been there, but that is his point. I think the people in the video are folks he actually knows from there and not just random folk someone decided to film.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-22, 18:39
OK. I see what you mean.
I don't disagree. It's apparent in some of these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsVUAqRzy90
The video seems subjective/bias, but I'm using it only to point out some of the phenotypes that seem very Amerindian influenced. Honestly, I can't say I know more than two Cubans who look as Indigenous as some of those people. The ones who have Amerindian features tend to favour to the African or European side more (depending on what they're mixed with).
Yes, those are Cibaenos. Those people reflect just some of the phenotypes in my own family. It ranges from mestizo/Amerind, White, Light tri-racial, and brown tri-racial.
I don't think it's biased. Based on what I've been told about the video the maker took photos of one family and said "it varies by region" It's a good representation of an area, particularly the interior of El Cibao.
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 13:41 ----------
The video maker's point (I know the guy) is that you can't point to any one region in the DR and claim that the phenotypes are representative of the country as a whole. DRs are tri-racial in different proportions from one region to the next. Don't know if that's true, as I've never been there, but that is his point. I think the people in the video are folks he actually knows from there and not just random folk someone decided to film.
I would say it's true.
Growing up though, THIS was the Dominican Republic to me. I saw a total of 2 completely West African looking Dominicans. The darkest I'd see were brown tri-racials. It surprised me what Anglos thought Dominicans looked like. Despite not looking like the "typical" Puerto Rican I get that a lot because of my facial features/skin color.
I would say that the video is only representative of maybe one small town, and definetly not of the Cibao as the whole, the Cibao is a HUGE region. The Cibao extends across all of the north from the center line of the country, all the way from Montecristi to Samana. I have seen Dominicans like the ones in the picture, from various towns, but are not the majority phenotype in d.r. Those looks are common in towns like San jose de Las Matas, Jarabacoa and a few others in the central-cibao. In the south there are more pure whites, then mestizo ones, in places like Bani, San Pedro de Macoris, San Cristobal, you will find pure whites as well as str8 west african looking Dominicans. In the part of the cibao that i'm from it is different from those pictures, i dont have that much family that looks like that. Most of the native cibaenyos of the eastern cibao, places liek San Francisco de macoris and the outskirts, Pimentel, Cotui and Samana have a basis of dark skin peoples, there are plenty of Zambos in these regions, and i saw many pure west africans growing up, including in my own family lines, but also many zambos, and of course there are many tri-racials too. The Cibao is blacker as u go more east and west, in the dead center is where u will find types like in this video commonly, and its in some towns, becuase La Vega is close to the center but has both these types and much darker types.
It seems that the eastern Cibao was mainly populated by Freed Slaves, Runaway Slaves, as well as many Indegenous groups that survived. My oldest family is very much Black and Zambo, but post 1900s there was a sizeable immigration of Spaniards mianly via Cuba (my great grandfather is a spanish-cuban), and in the case of Samana many whites there came from the Canary islands. In other words the founding populations where black and Zambos with a later med-euro component. So you can still find, specially in the countrysides of these regions where people have lived for generations, many Zambos and pure Non-Haitian West africans. But the Zambos are definetly the most populous in the countryside, specially in the hilly areas.
Here is a picture of a Cibaenyo boy to illustrate one of the types of Zambo phenotypes i seen in this part fo the cibao.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/SuperConejo/CampesinosDelCibao.jpg
Again i am not denying that the types in the video exist, because they do, but they are more specific to certain cities, and not representative of the whole region. D.R phenotypes truly have a very high range, but very few people are not African-mixed.
I've previously posted this before, but for the benefit of anyone who may be interested, this is my breakdown as far as phenotype by region. I have posted this on Domincian forums, and it is a pretty good representation:
Cibao:
This is the largest and most populous region in DR. Traditionally also the region with the highest percentage of people who show pred. Euroinfluenced features.
I would say the region somewhere between Santiago, La Vega, Moca, SanJose de Las Matas, Constanza/jarabacao has the highest, especially the campesino (rural folk).
Places llike Puerto Plata, Samana that are geographically located in the Cibao are quite distinct in which the Euro. influenced phenotype is less, more Afro/Amerind. percentagewise. Samana has a small group descended from African Americans settlers that came during the occupation. I'll leave it to the poster EiCibaeno to expand if he likes, he is from the region and has recently travelled there.
As far as San Francisco de Macoris, I have some family there and from what I can tell it's more of a mulatto/zambo/tri-racial/Arabic mix. Thats the common look. For somewhat of a glimpse, just go to the website Francomacorisano.com.
Santo Domingo/San Cristobal:
The capital attracts people from all over the island, but the stereotypical native Capitaleno is dark skinned. I also saw alot of strong Afro. influenced phenotypes in San Cristobal, but I've only briefly stopped there. By the way, many of the dark skinned people I saw reminded me of piics I've seen of Horners/Gulf Arabs or mixed North Africans.
El Este (the East):
Traditionally the area with the highest percentage of pred. Afroinfluenced phenotypes. In particular San Pedro de Macoris, the famed home of the Cocolos. Just look at its ex-senator Williams, if I had to guess I would guess he is of Cocolo ancestry. There is a town called 'Otra banda' or something like that, people tell me it stands out because of the pred. European phenotypes of the people, but I've never been there.
El Sur (the South):
I was born in San Juan De La Maguana which is in this region. I'd say that it is the most mulatto/zambo/tri-racial of all the regions. It's not as 'white' as the middle of the Cibao, but not as 'black' as the East. With the exception of places like Bani that have a high percentage of pred. European looking people. If you travel around Azua and the campos of Las Matas De Farfan, you'll also see alot of mestizo looking people. There's also a certain look I've seen there, it's a very dark skinned/straight featured/straight haired look. From a distance, they would look similar to someone of just African ancestry, but upon a closer look you'll see someone who looks kind oflike a dark skinned Arab or East Indian.
I've traced my family as far back as my great great grandparents, the only outside ancestry I have came via Cuban immigrants.
@Caonabo, I like the breakdown you have of the regions. The Cibao's center is where you will find in specially in some counriesides and evne in some larger towns a good amount of mostly med people, the most i seen by % has to be San Jose de Las Matas.
San Francisco de Macoris of today is not the same as it used to be just a generation ago. There was a pretty big influx of central-cibaenyos from countrysides near Santiago to work in S.F.M. This influx has contributed to some of the tri-racial types you see, i know because i've asked some of the lighterfamily's in Macoris and many of their parents have come from Santiago. This doesnt mean light skin people didnt exist prior to the 1960s in Macoris, but definetly the population has to take account that S.F.M is the third largest city, so a descent amount of hte people livign there now also have ancestry from other places, usually nearby places. The opposite can be seen in Santiago where some barrios like Cienfuegos have a good amount of darker skinned peoples from other regions of the cibao or the south. But outside of Macoris the city, you go to the countrysides and the small towns like Pimentel, Villa Riva, Caobete, the population is darker overall then S.F.M the city. The opposite is true in parts of the central cibao where some towns can have alot of dark skin people, but the countrysides be full of very mestizo looking people. San Francisco de Macoris, Cotui and Samana are very much connected in, its like a tri-angle. As a matter of fact at one time Samana didnt have a hospital and the inhabitants of Samana went to S.F.M for their medical needs.
I will post a video of a baptism in Pimentel, i was there just 4 months ago. Pimentel is 10 minutes from San Francisco de Macoris.
I don't disagree. It's apparent in some of these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsVUAqRzy90
The video seems subjective/bias, but I'm using it only to point out some of the phenotypes that seem very Amerindian influenced. Honestly, I can't say I know more than two Cubans who look as Indigenous as some of those people. The ones who have Amerindian features tend to favour to the African or European side more (depending on what they're mixed with).
I agree. Your video is very interesting and prove the point.
Just seeing the following video, I see that Dominican Republic is a lot more than a single race... as some people pretend.
eBMJb_mxOQo
I agree. Your video is very interesting and prove the point.
Just seeing the following video, I see that Dominican Republic is a lot more than a single race... as some people pretend.
eBMJb_mxOQo
Just like there isn't a single race in your own country ;):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP5aBj2Xvg8&feature=related
Just like there isn't a single race in your own country ;):
Who said so? Chileans are mainly a mixture of Iberian and Mapuche, with a large immigration of Eupeans (Italians, French, Germans, other Europeans), besides Arabs, Jews, Palestineans, Gypsies, Chinese and other minorities. It also have a population of Peruvian descendents that were captured when we, brave Chileans, invaded Peru during the War of the Pacific of 1879.
Well, at that that we also captured a territory close to the frontier of Peru where there was a Peruvian "reproductive-farm" of Blacks. Well, those 100 or less Blacks are the ones shown in that TV show. Not that had any impact in our identity at all. Besides, they are quite decolored already :evilgrin:
Who said so? Chileans are mainly a mixture of Iberian and Mapuche, with a large immigration of Eupeans (Italians, French, Germans, other Europeans), besides Arabs, Jews, Palestineans, Gypsies, Chinese and other minorities. It also have a population of Peruvian descendents that were captured when we, brave Chileans, invaded Peru during the War of the Pacific of 1879.
That made me laugh don't know why. In any case, those peruvian descendants must be insignificant compared to the masses that have migrated in the recent years.
That made me laugh don't know why. In any case, those peruvian descendants must be insignificant compared to the masses that have migrated in the recent years.
Perhaps it was the term "reproductive-farm", and I bet you know what that means :evilgrin:
But you are absolutely right; that group is insignificant, because they are around 100 people and the Peruvian migration is around 200.000 already. Besides, almost all Peruvians that arrive here are Native Americans, so they have been received relatively well. Also, some upper class Peruvians have arrived, too. One was my boss, years ago, who was very pale, and he made fun of us saying we were all Mapuches (natives) :lol:
Who said so? Chileans are mainly a mixture of Iberian and Mapuche, with a large immigration of Eupeans (Italians, French, Germans, other Europeans), besides Arabs, Jews, Palestineans, Gypsies, Chinese and other minorities. It also have a population of Peruvian descendents that were captured when we, brave Chileans, invaded Peru during the War of the Pacific of 1879.
Well, at that that we also captured a territory close to the frontier of Peru where there was a Peruvian "reproductive-farm" of Blacks. Well, those 100 or less Blacks are the ones shown in that TV show. Not that had any impact in our identity at all. Besides, they are quite decolored already :evilgrin:
There estimates are in the hundred thousands. :evilgrin:
Wasn't Cueca your national dance influenced by Afro-descendants?
Either way. You seem to downplay Afro-Latinos, but then give significance to Mestizos where they're a diluted minority.. why?
There estimates are in the hundred thousands. :evilgrin:
That's pure, simple and condensed BS.
Wasn't Cueca your national dance influenced by Afro-descendants?
Nope. It was a dance imported from Peru.
Either way. You seem to downplay Afro-Latinos, but then give significance to Mestizos where they're a diluted minority.. why?
I don't downplay Blacks of Latin America. I downplay the bunch of idiots that have promoted all over the world they are Black-Chileans living in the Azapa Valley.
Why? Because it is ridiculous that for inventing theirs roots they have imported dances from Brazil and Africa. If they at least played Afro-Peruvian music I would agree there is something legitimate there.
Besides, why to give so much attention to Blacks in Chile, when Gypsies, Jews and Palestineans have larger majorities?
On the other side, Chile was not a plantation country. We didn't have Africans in the fields, here. This country was founded by soldiers and peasants, and not buy imported slaves. It was a very poor country that was almost continuosly in war, against the Indians and the Pirates. It was so poor that we build our forts and bridges with prisoners, rather than minorities.
So, if you want to know about us, ask us and don't invent.
161,342 -- according to wikipedia, but I understand there is no reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Chilean
Nope. It was a dance imported from Peru.
Los productores de ‘Afro-Latinos’ explorarán la presencia africana en la música de Chile. Escucharán la cueca, antiguamente llamada “zamacueca”, la cual se nos ha dicho tiene una muy fuerte influencia africana. Aprenderán mas acerca las distintas formas de danza en Chile, tales como el candombito y la cachimba.
http://www.afrolatinos.tv/index.php?root.display/266/Chile#lang1pag
I don't downplay Blacks of Latin America. I downplay the bunch of idiots that have promoted all over the world they are Black-Chileans living in the Azapa Valley.
Why? Because it is ridiculous that for inventing theirs roots they have imported dances from Brazil and Africa. If they at least played Afro-Peruvian music I would agree there is something legitimate there.
Besides, why to give so much attention to Blacks in Chile, when Gypsies, Jews and Palestineans have larger majorities?
On the other side, Chile was not a plantation country. We didn't have Africans in the fields, here. This country was founded by soldiers and peasants, and not buy imported slaves. It was a very poor country that was almost continuosly in war, against the Indians and the Pirates. It was so poor that we build our forts and bridges with prisoners, rather than minorities.
So, if you want to know about us, ask us and don't invent.I'm not inventing anything (lol). You do realize that in +100 years the population would have risen, yes? Obviously they mixed with other Chileans, but I don't doubt the number above has some truth to it, they don't necessarily have to be black, but Afro-descendants nonetheless..
I'm not denying that other migrant groups have had more impact either.
I don't downplay Blacks of Latin America.
C'mon ,don't lie now Pinguin.:D:lol:
C'mon ,don't lie now Pinguin.:D:lol:
I said Blacks of LATIN AMERICA :evilgrin:
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 22:14 ----------
161,342 -- according to wikipedia, but I understand there is no reliable source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Chilean
.
I don't find it that unrealiable, except for the figures of colonial demography in Chile. Arica was a slavery port of entry to Peru, that's true.
http://www.afrolatinos.tv/index.php?root.display/266/Chile#lang1pag
In Chile the Black population at colonial times was marginal, and Encina is not a reliable historian at all.
I'm not inventing anything (lol). You do realize that in +100 years the population would have risen, yes? Obviously they mixed with other Chileans, but I don't doubt the number above has some truth to it, they don't necessarily have to be black, but Afro-descendants nonetheless..
I'm not denying that other migrant groups have had more impact either.
Well, if so what, everybody comes from Africa. There is not remains of African traditions in the Chilean culture, though. Except for the "cueca", which is a dance developed in Peru based in a style comming from Europe and perhaps by the traditional rithms of the Black Peruvians.
Now, have you ever seen a Congolese, a Igbo or a Zulu dancing like this? I doubt.
YVa4oe7uHiY
-ezvcOd0Zvs
I said Blacks of LATIN AMERICA :evilgrin:[COLOR="Silver"]
I remember you saying on the old board basically that is was a shame that black/triracial latinos or african influences in Latin America existed. You basically wanted all of Latin America to be Euro Mestizo (Euro Amerindian):o:lol:
Well, Can't I learn and change my mind?
Well, Can't I learn and change my mind?
It's possible but ever since I've came incontact with you (about 2-3 years) that's been your agenda:p
My agenda? My only agenda is that Latin America is not pull appart, that Olmecs are recognized as American Indians and that every people in the Western Hemisphere, no matter they are or not descendent of them, recognize we live in a land settled and developed by the American Indians, that entered the New World 15.000 years ago.
EiCibaeño
2010-01-23, 04:33
I would say that the video is only representative of maybe one small town, and definetly not of the Cibao as the whole, the Cibao is a HUGE region. The Cibao extends across all of the north from the center line of the country, all the way from Montecristi to Samana. I have seen Dominicans like the ones in the picture, from various towns, but are not the majority phenotype in d.r. Those looks are common in towns like San jose de Las Matas, Jarabacoa and a few others in the central-cibao. In the south there are more pure whites, then mestizo ones, in places like Bani, San Pedro de Macoris, San Cristobal, you will find pure whites as well as str8 west african looking Dominicans. In the part of the cibao that i'm from it is different from those pictures, i dont have that much family that looks like that. Most of the native cibaenyos of the eastern cibao, places liek San Francisco de macoris and the outskirts, Pimentel, Cotui and Samana have a basis of dark skin peoples, there are plenty of Zambos in these regions, and i saw many pure west africans growing up, including in my own family lines, but also many zambos, and of course there are many tri-racials too. The Cibao is blacker as u go more east and west, in the dead center is where u will find types like in this video commonly, and its in some towns, becuase La Vega is close to the center but has both these types and much darker types.
It seems that the eastern Cibao was mainly populated by Freed Slaves, Runaway Slaves, as well as many Indegenous groups that survived. My oldest family is very much Black and Zambo, but post 1900s there was a sizeable immigration of Spaniards mianly via Cuba (my great grandfather is a spanish-cuban), and in the case of Samana many whites there came from the Canary islands. In other words the founding populations where black and Zambos with a later med-euro component. So you can still find, specially in the countrysides of these regions where people have lived for generations, many Zambos and pure Non-Haitian West africans. But the Zambos are definetly the most populous in the countryside, specially in the hilly areas.
Here is a picture of a Cibaenyo boy to illustrate one of the types of Zambo phenotypes i seen in this part fo the cibao.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/SuperConejo/CampesinosDelCibao.jpg
Again i am not denying that the types in the video exist, because they do, but they are more specific to certain cities, and not representative of the whole region. D.R phenotypes truly have a very high range, but very few people are not African-mixed.
This is where many Dominicans tend to argue. I as well as many other Cibaenos on other Dominican websites tend to agree that El Cibao is the "heartland"/interior/mountainous region. This is where Cibaeno culture was cultivated unadulterated without much foreign influence unlike Coastal areas like Puerto Plata, Montecristi, Samana. I went to Samana recently for the first time and I did not feel as though I was in El Cibao anymore (seafood dishes and coconut in rice as opposed to chibo and other Cibaeno staples). The geographical term "El Cibao" is quite large but the linguistic/cultural unit is rather confined.
El Cibao, as far as I've always been concerned, was populated by Euro peasant cattle ranchers and their Amerind/Mestizo/Castizo mates. African presence but much lower than El Sur or El Este.
The phenotype of my family resembles those in the video and has some not seen, such as White and a more tanned tri-racial but over all much like the video show.
We can argue this, but ultimately this always ends in a dead lock of opinions because there isn't a definite line.
Speaking of line, the north Coast like Montecristi are referred to as "La Linea".
---------- Post added 2010-01-22 at 23:37 ----------
I've previously posted this before, but for the benefit of anyone who may be interested, this is my breakdown as far as phenotype by region. I have posted this on Domincian forums, and it is a pretty good representation:
Cibao:
This is the largest and most populous region in DR. Traditionally also the region with the highest percentage of people who show pred. Euroinfluenced features.
I would say the region somewhere between Santiago, La Vega, Moca, SanJose de Las Matas, Constanza/jarabacao has the highest, especially the campesino (rural folk).
Places llike Puerto Plata, Samana that are geographically located in the Cibao are quite distinct in which the Euro. influenced phenotype is less, more Afro/Amerind. percentagewise. Samana has a small group descended from African Americans settlers that came during the occupation. I'll leave it to the poster EiCibaeno to expand if he likes, he is from the region and has recently travelled there.
As far as San Francisco de Macoris, I have some family there and from what I can tell it's more of a mulatto/zambo/tri-racial/Arabic mix. Thats the common look. For somewhat of a glimpse, just go to the website Francomacorisano.com.
Santo Domingo/San Cristobal:
The capital attracts people from all over the island, but the stereotypical native Capitaleno is dark skinned. I also saw alot of strong Afro. influenced phenotypes in San Cristobal, but I've only briefly stopped there. By the way, many of the dark skinned people I saw reminded me of piics I've seen of Horners/Gulf Arabs or mixed North Africans.
El Este (the East):
Traditionally the area with the highest percentage of pred. Afroinfluenced phenotypes. In particular San Pedro de Macoris, the famed home of the Cocolos. Just look at its ex-senator Williams, if I had to guess I would guess he is of Cocolo ancestry. There is a town called 'Otra banda' or something like that, people tell me it stands out because of the pred. European phenotypes of the people, but I've never been there.
El Sur (the South):
I was born in San Juan De La Maguana which is in this region. I'd say that it is the most mulatto/zambo/tri-racial of all the regions. It's not as 'white' as the middle of the Cibao, but not as 'black' as the East. With the exception of places like Bani that have a high percentage of pred. European looking people. If you travel around Azua and the campos of Las Matas De Farfan, you'll also see alot of mestizo looking people. There's also a certain look I've seen there, it's a very dark skinned/straight featured/straight haired look. From a distance, they would look similar to someone of just African ancestry, but upon a closer look you'll see someone who looks kind oflike a dark skinned Arab or East Indian.
I've traced my family as far back as my great great grandparents, the only outside ancestry I have came via Cuban immigrants.
Nothing to add that I didn't already post in my previous posting.
Over all agreed.
C'mon ,don't lie now Pinguin.:D:lol:
To be fair. You and some other black americans try to down play African admixture in African Americans as well. At least pinguin is not consending and doesn't spread ip's or gossip.
To be fair. You and some other black americans try to down play African admixture in African Americans as well.
Not me, If you read any of my posts on admx in black americans I always point out they're about 3/4's black on average and also mention the Africans they descend from. I've said numerous time they aren't "true mulattos" in the 50/50 sense.
At least pinguin is not consending and doesn't spread ip's or gossip.
Well you cant be talking about me because I never post in any thread outside of this section/african section/classify and I never "gossip" about anything to anyone. Who have I been condescending to? I have nothing to do with any other posters thoughts and opinions.
Not me, If you read any of my posts on admx in black americans I always point out they're about 3/4's black on average and also mention the Africans they descend from. I've said numerous time they aren't "true mulattos" in the 50/50 sense.
Well you cant be talking about me because I never post in any thread outside of this section/african section/classify and I never "gossip" about anything to anyone. Who have I been condescending to? I have nothing to do with any other posters thoughts and opinions.
There you go again.
There you go again.
What? That's factual truth neither black or white washing:confused:
What? That's factual truth neither black or white washing:confused:
I've seen multiple studies where it was lower. But this is no surprise coming from you. The guy who got banned along with you, was trying to make believe that African Americans descend from less negroid type Africans Fulani etc, than other blacks in the new world. And the bias admin was backing you.
I've seen multiple studies where it was lower. But this is no surprise coming from you.
The key word I said was about. "About" means it vary's which is not always 100% exact it's an estimate. The figure came from this study
1)http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5899/aagen1zf1.gif
2)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8335/aagen2nc7.gif
3)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9683/aagen3dx3.gif
4)http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5981/aagen4hw1.gif
5)http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7404/aagen5lx7.gif
The guy who got banned along with you,
were trying to make African Americans descend from less negroid type Africans Fulani etc, than other blacks in the new world.
I never said that here is my quote on the subject. Read what I said in red
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=335&postcount=11
All New World blacks African wise are a mixture of West Africans (Non-Bantu), SouthWEst African/Central African (Bantu) + Angolan and a little South East African. It's just a matter of proportion after that. Brazil is really the only that is pred Angolan in origin though. I posted these on the other board..
West Indians & Afro-Latinos from the Carribean (Puerto Rico/Dom Rep/Cuba)
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7007/02dslaveoriginscarib.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/02dslaveoriginscarib.jpg/)
.
.
.
USA
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/9781/02dslaveoriginsnamer.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/02dslaveoriginsnamer.jpg/)
.
.
.
Brazil/South America
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/952/02dslaveoriginssamer.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/02dslaveoriginssamer.jpg/)
And the bias admin was backing you.
Who? I have no idea what admin you're talking about:confused:
The key word I said was about. "About" means it vary's which is not always 100% exact. The figure came from this study
1)http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5899/aagen1zf1.gif
2)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8335/aagen2nc7.gif
3)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9683/aagen3dx3.gif
4)http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5981/aagen4hw1.gif
5)http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7404/aagen5lx7.gif
I never said that here is my quote on the subject. Read what I said in red
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=335&postcount=11
Who? I have no idea what admin you're talking about:confused:
How could that be about on average, when that was done on one set of African American from Washington? Is that the same study that says White Americans have black admixture?
I think it's because in the USA, neither whites or blacks get or have the high rates of Amerindian admx on average like you do in Latin American blacks/whites. The only study I've seen on Amerindian admx in white americans is he one posted from above
European Americans from State College , the west African and native American genetic contributions are low (0.7% and 3.2%, respectively)."
(Shriver et al. 2003)
the only one I've seen mention Amerindian admx in blacks is..
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.09/seminoles.html?pg=4&topic=seminoles&topic_set=
IMO, the highest rates of European/Amerindian and African/Amerindian are outside of the general black and white american populations but in these [i]isolated "white indian" or "black indian" groups.
How could that be about on average,
Again, these test are just estimates because unless they test everyone of what ever population they're looking into, they're never going to get a 100% accurate number.
when that was done on one set of African American from Washington? Is that the same study that says White Americans have black admixture?
Read it here
http://backintyme.com/essays/?p=5
Among the other sixteen team-members and collaborators of this study, who work for colleges and private research laboratories throughout the United States, Canada, and England, is Dr. Rick Kittles, a geneticist at Howard University in Washington DC (see photograph below, at left). The study analyzed DNA samples from 3,000 individuals in 25 locations.
What about this:
Africa is the source of all modern humans, but characterization of genetic variation and of relationships among populations across the continent has been enigmatic. We studied 121 African populations, four African American populations, and 60 non-African populations for patterns of variation at 1327 nuclear microsatellite and insertion/deletion markers. We identified 14 ancestral population clusters in Africa that correlate with self-described ethnicity and shared cultural and/or linguistic properties. We observed high levels of mixed ancestry in most populations, reflecting historical migration events across the continent. Our data also provide evidence for shared ancestry among geographically diverse hunter-gatherer populations (Khoesan speakers and Pygmies). The ancestry of African Americans is predominantly from Niger-Kordofanian (~71%), European (~13%), and other African (~8%) populations, although admixture levels varied considerably among individuals. This study helps tease apart the complex evolutionary history of Africans and African Americans, aiding both anthropological and genetic epidemiologic studies.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1172257
---------- Post added 2010-01-23 at 06:45 ----------
What about this:
[COLOR="Silver"]
Well, it's another of a host of estimate estimate studies on BA genetics and just further proves my point about population genetics testing.
I Dont think the center cibao is necesarily the most culturally cibaenyo part, i say this becuase Santiago Rodriguez is already heading towards the West (Haiti) and they speak with some really strong i's. Also many people from towns in and near Samana speak with the i and have the same customs, especially in towns like Las Terrenas.
Here is Las Terrenas, Samana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEKZDwQ0kac
This is an example of the parts of the Cibao i'm refering to, i was here around 4 months ago, i'm in the vid. Pimentel, Provincia Duarte, Eastern Cibao. This is not coastal like Las Terrenas or Samana, so you can't say its due to influx, 95%+ of these people have been in the area as far as they can trace back. All the small towns outside of San Francisco de Macoris are identical to this in phenotype range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSVy90xRgg
This is in the western Cibao, Santiago Rodriguez. They have a very large phenotypical variation, some people look nordic influence, some str8 west african, some zambo, some tri-racials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4bgxoFkKYk
This is from your same study.
Are you will to agree with this? Probably not.
The Black and White ranges are typical of the New World. Admixture variation among Latin American populations tends to span ranges as broad as that of the U.S. Black endogamous group, but shifted up or down on the chart depending on the particular nation’s colonial ratio of African slaves to European colonists. A plot from Argentina, for example, would resemble a mirror image of the Black scatter diagram, flipped over to start at the top, thereby resembling a slightly stretched version of the White U.S. plot. Scatter diagrams of Puerto Ricans or Dominicans center on the 50-percent line, with decreasing dot densities stretching all the way to both of the 100-percent axes. Haitians produce scatter diagrams resembling those of Black Americans.
This is from you same study.
Are you will to agree with this,probably not.
Why wouldn't I agree with it?
The Black and White ranges are typical of the New World. Admixture variation among Latin American populations tends to span ranges as broad as that of the U.S. Black endogamous group, but shifted up or down on the chart depending on the particular nation’s colonial ratio of African slaves to European colonists. A plot from Argentina, for example, would resemble a mirror image of the Black scatter diagram, flipped over to start at the top, thereby resembling a slightly stretched version of the White U.S. plot. Scatter diagrams of Puerto Ricans or Dominicans center on the 50-percent line, with decreasing dot densities stretching all the way to both of the 100-percent axes. Haitians produce scatter diagrams resembling those of Black Americans.
I'v said numerous times that
Latin Caribs looks to range more from true mulattos--->light skinned triracials (plus a certain amount of fully white looking types)
and
Black americans & West Indians (jamaicans, Hatians, bajans etc..) range more from
African---> true mulattos (plus a certain amount of fully white looking types)
I've never said otherwise:confused:
Why wouldn't I agree with it?
I'v said numerous times that
Latin Caribs looks to range more from true mulattos--->light skinned triracials (plus a certain amount of fully white looking types)
and
Black americans & West Indians (jamaicans, Hatians, bajans etc..) range more from
African---> true mulattos (plus a certain amount of fully white looking types)
I've never said otherwise:confused:
x moves on from threads x
I remember what my Grandmother used to say when I went to see her in Juncos Puerto Rico.
No matter how white we look I'm sure one black one will fall out if you go back a few generations. But ether way I'm proud of having some African heritage even if its not in the genetic sense. The music the food its everywhere in Puerto Rico.
But like many other Latin American countries especially the Spanish Caribbean part like to deny any or little to any blood of African origin. Because of the "Limpieza De Sangre", cleanliness of blood. Which was part of the old Spanish caste system that they brought to the new world which still effects Latin America today.
But now where in 2010. People have changed and recognized it and take pride in it. But sometimes its a Yes but Deny thing hard to explain it fully.
Maroon King
2010-03-21, 23:24
I haven't read through all the pages but I think Black Brazilians, Black Cubans and Black Colombians from the Pacific coast and Palenke are the most proud Blacks of the Iberian colonized western hemisphere. PRs are too pro tri-racial for me to say they're among the most proud Black.
Bonaoense
2010-03-27, 23:31
Well puertoricos case is more complex, there is a simple rule in the diaspora, When being black or african-descended is in the minority then people are more self inclusive and self identify as black more often, there is more pride, because unity comes out of being a minority. When Blacks are the majority, in the case of D.R, Jamaica, Haiti, there is alot more self hate, and blackness is reserved for the darkest skinned people, the rest are called, red, brown, coolie, chiney, indio, marabou, mulatto, etc. I agree with Windie that self identifying as tri-racial is not a bad thing or negative.
I do not think Reggaeton is a good sense of puertoricos blackness, but it is connected to it, as the rythm in reggaeton ALREADY existed in puertorico specially in Plena music, if you hear how the frame drums communicate in plena, its pretty much the same dembow reggaeton rythm, so when panamanian and jamaican artist where being heard in puertorico, it had rythms that for the most part already existed.
As far as D.R having the most African visibliy and culturally, i say defiently visibly. But i have to give to the 3, Cuba, Haiti, Brazil for having the most African culture thats still alive, this is mostly due to these 3 countries importing africans till the late 1800s or more isolation. But After those 3, D.R definetly follows, because Palo, Congo, Bambula, Salve, Sarandunga, and other Drum genres in D.R are highly african and some even contain many Kikongo words, its just things arent on the level of Cuba/Haiti/Brazil because there was alot more criollismo and less reinforcement. Nevertheless the D.R collectively though has alot more African culture then European culture, in comparison to lets say Cuba which has a strong tradition of Spanish Decimas and Coplas, the D.R has very few of these spanish derived musics and dances, most have died out. Brazil also has many of these european dances along with african ones, the d.r overall definetly has more African culture then european atleast in its music and dance.
Bachata? It has some african influences but it's mainly European
I haven't read through all the pages but I think Black Brazilians, Black Cubans and Black Colombians from the Pacific coast and Palenke are the most proud Blacks of the Iberian colonized western hemisphere. PRs are too pro tri-racial for me to say they're among the most proud Black.
Sure. Because in those countries is where you find Blacks in Latin America. How would you expect a Paraguayan, a Southern Brazilian and Argentinean or a Mexican would feel proud of how Black are they? They aren't.
Not in my case, my family hides the fact that there could be any black roots. Never once heard anything about African heritage or roots or w/e. Its so dam obvious when I was going through old album books, lol.
Bonaoense
2010-03-28, 00:33
Are you sure about there not being a large population of dominicans in spain? i deffinately met alot when i went to madrid,
its sad but has anyone seen the movie princesas?
when i went i barely saw any black people around the city, but the prostitutes were overwhemingly africans and foreign born latins *dominicans*( who i actually got chased down the street by). There was also alot of racist remarks in normal conversation there
---------- Post added 2010-01-21 at 19:55 ----------
the dominican guy has a very caribe look,
the puerto rican guy(probably triracial) looks like he could pass for a mestizo country
ive deffinately met a few puerto ricans who look like him
is it possible that a certain mixture of european and african can create the mestizo look?
Yes. Alot of Congolese and Nigerian people (not Khoisan or Pygmy) have high cheek bones and slanted eyes (not as slanted as asians/natives though).
...Ethiopians many would argue are not even Black, and many are highly mixed with Arabid/non-native African blood to the point where the average person would not consider some "Black people", and they consider themselves Black for the most part.
The reason most people don't consider Ethiopians black, stems more from the fact that Africans have been stereotyped to look a certain way. Phenotypically speaking, most of the time, Ethiopians do not fall under this (undoubtedly) biased view. It's not so much their pigmentation, as Ethiopians are generally darker than most central-west Africans (in my opinion), but their general morphology.
In any case, not to seem rude or anything, but I feel compelled to correct one of your assertions.
It's actually the Yemeni who have high frequencies of Ethiopian ancestry (not the other way around).
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/Geezus_2008/untitled-1.jpg
^Note the notable admixture of both Ethiopian (~62.0%) and West Asian (~36.0%) mtDNA, present in these Yemeni samples.
Genetically however, they (Yemenis) remain predominantly Near Eastern, and show very low levels of sub-Saharan DNA (if even any) paternally. The figures are entirely maternal in origin.
Foreign admixture is not at all remarkably prominent in Ethiopia and actually, by comparison to certain ethnic groups found within relative proximity (the Nubian for example), is relatively inconsequential. E1b1b is the predominant paternal marker, while maternally, strong affinity is shown for various subclades of the Haplogroup L (mtDNA).
Perhaps the reason why Ethiopians appear pseudo-Arab, may correlate with the fact that although E1b1b arose out of eastern Africa, it has a fairly wide distribution. Various subclades (like E1b1ba) appear (well) outside of Africa, in places like western Asia (especially), and stretching as far east as Southern Asia, and as far north as Scandinavia (in declining frequencies).
It is far more likely they are a progenitor race, than one that was conceived out of some union between Arabs and Negroids.
Decimator
2010-03-28, 01:48
The reason most people don't consider Ethiopians black, stems more from the fact that Africans have been stereotyped to look a certain way. Phenotypically speaking, most of the time, Ethiopians do not fall under this (undoubtedly) biased view. It's not so much their pigmentation, as Ethiopians are generally darker than most central-west Africans (in my opinion), but their general morphology.
In any case, not to seem rude or anything, but I feel compelled to correct one of your assertions.
It's actually the Yemeni who have high frequencies of Ethiopian ancestry (not the other way around).
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/Geezus_2008/untitled-1.jpg
^Note the notable admixture of both Ethiopian (~62.0%) and West Asian (~36.0%) mtDNA, present in these Yemeni samples.
Genetically however, they (Yemenis) remain predominantly Near Eastern, and show very low levels of sub-Saharan DNA (if even any) paternally. The figures are entirely maternal in origin.
Foreign admixture is not at all remarkably prominent in Ethiopia and actually, by comparison to certain ethnic groups found within relative proximity (the Nubian for example), is relatively inconsequential. E1b1b is the predominant paternal marker, while maternally, strong affinity is shown for various subclades of the Haplogroup L (mtDNA).
Perhaps the reason why Ethiopians appear pseudo-Arab, may correlate with the fact that although E1b1b arose out of eastern Africa, it has a fairly wide distribution. Various subclades (like E1b1ba) appear (well) outside of Africa, in places like western Asia (especially), and stretching as far east as Southern Asia, and as far north as Scandinavia (in declining frequencies).
It is far more likely they are a progenitor race, than one that was conceived out of some union between Arabs and Negroids.
No, it's not like Yemenis have Ethiopian ancestry and Ethiopians do not have any Yemen. All peoples living in the Red Sea have a little of other people from the other side. Yemenis have Ethiopian admixture, but Ethiopians and Eritreans have Yemeni admixture too.
No, it's not like Yemenis have Ethiopian ancestry and Ethiopians do not have any Yemen. All peoples living in the Red Sea have a little of other people from the other side. Yemenis have Ethiopian admixture, but Ethiopians and Eritreans have Yemeni admixture too.
It is hard to convince Ethiopians that they have admixture from Arabs and West Asians. As hard as to convince you that Mexicans have Andalucian blood :lol::lol:
Decimator
2010-03-28, 01:54
It is hard to convince Ethiopians that they have admixture from Arabs and West Asians. As hard as to convince you that Mexicans have Andalucian blood :lol::lol:
We do have a little Andalusian blood, but less than our Basque, Castillian, Asturian, Aztec, Mixtec, Caxcan blood.
Well, Ethiopians will never recognize they have admixture. No matter they have been in contact with Arabs and West Asians since the beginning of history, according to them only theirs genes spread but it didn't happens the other way around. There is a magical genetical barrier in the Red Sea that allow genes to spread only in one direction: from Ethiopia, but not into Ethiopia...:evilgrin:
What the shit, nobody said there wasn't admixture. Eurasian input is fairly minimal though. As is evidenced in this map (Eurasian gene flow is marked in blue),
http://scienceblogs.com/geneticfuture/massive_study_of_african_genet/tishkoff_africa_map.jpg
Decimator
2010-03-28, 02:22
What the shit, nobody said there wasn't admixture. Eurasian input is fairly minimal though. As is evidenced in this map (Eurasian gene flow is marked in blue),
http://scienceblogs.com/geneticfuture/massive_study_of_african_genet/tishkoff_africa_map.jpg
Ah, and then what are the other colors? I guess they even have gene flow from Saturn and Mars. That map most likely seems to be an Haplogroup map, but Haplogroups aren't mentioned there.
More interesting would be a map that includes the Horn and the Arab peninsulae
Aware_Dog
2010-03-28, 03:13
The reason most people don't consider Ethiopians black, stems more from the fact that Africans have been stereotyped to look a certain way. Phenotypically speaking, most of the time, Ethiopians do not fall under this (undoubtedly) biased view. It's not so much their pigmentation, as Ethiopians are generally darker than most central-west Africans (in my opinion), but their general morphology.
In any case, not to seem rude or anything, but I feel compelled to correct one of your assertions.
It's actually the Yemeni who have high frequencies of Ethiopian ancestry (not the other way around).
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr105/Geezus_2008/untitled-1.jpg
^Note the notable admixture of both Ethiopian (~62.0%) and West Asian (~36.0%) mtDNA, present in these Yemeni samples.
Genetically however, they (Yemenis) remain predominantly Near Eastern, and show very low levels of sub-Saharan DNA (if even any) paternally. The figures are entirely maternal in origin.
Foreign admixture is not at all remarkably prominent in Ethiopia and actually, by comparison to certain ethnic groups found within relative proximity (the Nubian for example), is relatively inconsequential. E1b1b is the predominant paternal marker, while maternally, strong affinity is shown for various subclades of the Haplogroup L (mtDNA).
Perhaps the reason why Ethiopians appear pseudo-Arab, may correlate with the fact that although E1b1b arose out of eastern Africa, it has a fairly wide distribution. Various subclades (like E1b1ba) appear (well) outside of Africa, in places like western Asia (especially), and stretching as far east as Southern Asia, and as far north as Scandinavia (in declining frequencies).
It is far more likely they are a progenitor race, than one that was conceived out of some union between Arabs and Negroids.
What a refreshing post to read. Thank you very much for it.
It seems as if most people are so heavily brainwashed and brutalized by European racialist dogma that their mind is only capable of processing images of the likes of Mwai Kibaki as the only 'true' black Africans, they simply can not get their minds wrapped around the fact that race is but a dynamic and ever changing social construct and not at all a biologically determined scientific dogma. In the today and now, on a level of the global social arena, we Ethiopians by vast majority are considered and consider ourselves to be BLACK AFRICANS, different in many aspects from other Black Africans (whom a lot have differences from each other also) ? True, nevertheless, on the genetic and social level we are equally (if not more) Black, as any Western, Central or Southern African, and this is pretty much accepted by the darkest to the lightest skinned Ethiopian I know. Also important to note here is that 'Arabs' by and large do not consider us part of their own 'race' and to the same degree this feeling is reciprocated by us towards them.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.1 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.