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Lol_Race
2011-08-05, 01:05
I know this topic has been popular here recently. There's a new study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547) on the genetic structure of Swedes, check it out.

---------- Post added 2011-08-05 at 02:25 ----------

There's an MDS plot including the different Swedish counties and the CEU (Figure S8 (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547.s008)). Another interesting part of the results is the table of Fst distance and genomic inflation lambda values (Table 3 (http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547.t003)).

evon
2011-08-05, 09:27
yeah i just read it myself and was going to post it:P

i found it striking that the population on the Norwegian border was so different, it is likely due to a mixing of Forest Finnish and Norwegian influence..

Lol_Race
2011-08-05, 11:49
i found it striking that the population on the Norwegian border was so different, it is likely due to a mixing of Forest Finnish and Norwegian influence..
A genetic bottleneck in Dalarna probably contributes to it as well. Their number of homozygous segments (http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0022547.g005) is almost comparable to populations in the far north. Their Y-DNA frequencies are also a bit different from their neighbors.

Viking
2011-08-05, 12:01
Are the white-marked provinces on the homozygous chart not looked at? Only those who are marked gray? If that is not the case, then I'm surprised that Uppsala would be so little homozygous, as it's very Finnic-influenced. Uppsala has even more N1c than Värmland does (reference: Karlsson et al 2006). Of course, the Finnic genes in Uppsala are mainly from Southwest Finland, and Western Finns are supposed to be significantly less inbred than Eastern and Northern Finns (Värmlands and Dalarnas Finnish genes originate from Eastern Finland).

Lol_Race
2011-08-05, 12:34
Are the white-marked provinces on the homozygous chart not looked at? Only those who are marked gray? If that is not the case, then I'm surprised that Uppsala would be so little homozygous, as it's very Finnic-influenced. Uppsala has even more N1c than Värmland does (reference: Karlsson et al 2006). Of course, the Finnic genes in Uppsala are mainly from Southwest Finland, and Western Finns are supposed to be significantly less inbred than Eastern and Northern Finns (Värmlands and Dalarnas Finnish genes originate from Eastern Finland).
They are also included, they are just colored differently to illustrate the p value differences.

I don't know much about the varying Finnish influence. Do you know which N1c1 haplotypes were found in Värmland, and if it was mainly from the "Finnic" branch rather than Scandinavian/Varangian or South Baltic?

Keep in mind that some minor Finnish admixture wouldn't necessarily increase the number of homozygous segments.

Balder
2011-08-05, 13:41
Not all of N1c1 in Sweden has to do with Finns, there's a N1c1 Swedish/Varangian subclade.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-05, 13:46
Not all of N1c1 in Sweden has to do with Finns, there's a N1c1 Swedish/Varangian subclade.

This Varangian subclade s probably more numerousin Finland. I guess that also in Estonia, although we have too little information from them.

Viking
2011-08-05, 13:52
Not all of N1c1 in Sweden has to do with Finns, there's a N1c1 Swedish/Varangian subclade.

But as far as I know, Uppland has had a share of Swedish-speaking Western Finnish migration from Finland Proper during the 1400s, according to the history books. Perhaps not all N1c haplogroups are from there, but some of them should be.

I have no "evidence" about the N1c in Värmland coming from the Forrest Finns, but I think it should be quite obvious to most...

takoja
2011-08-05, 14:30
I don't know much about the varying Finnish influence. Do you know which N1c1 haplotypes were found in Värmland, and if it was mainly from the "Finnic" branch rather than Scandinavian/Varangian or South Baltic?


You could just as well call them both Finnic. Both are found from Finland.

Balder
2011-08-05, 16:28
This Varangian subclade s probably more numerousin Finland. I guess that also in Estonia, although we have too little information from them.

The 'Swedish' subclade of N1c1 (in Gotland and Blekinge f.ex, it back to 3000 years) do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with the Finnic languages, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23, with the haplotype itself (all values considered) more closely associated with North Germanic speakers.

From a Finnish source btw. http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/N1c.pdf

Janos
2011-08-05, 17:23
An analysis of genetic differentiation (based on pairwise Fst) indicated that the population of Sweden's southernmost counties are genetically closer to the HapMap CEU samples of Northern European ancestry than to the populations of Sweden's northernmost counties

swedes are not that homogenous, i knew it.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-05, 17:27
The 'Swedish' subclade of N1c1 (in Gotland and Blekinge f.ex, it back to 3000 years) do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with the Finnic languages, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23, with the haplotype itself (all values considered) more closely associated with North Germanic
speakers.

From a Finnish source btw. http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/N1c.pdf[COLOR="Silver"]



You seem to have bad information about these STR-values. I wonder a bit how long these old "myths" spread on internet. Hakkinen is a wannabe researcher, studied only linguistics.

Janos
2011-08-05, 17:27
yeah i just read it myself and was going to post it:P

i found it striking that the population on the Norwegian border was so different, it is likely due to a mixing of Forest Finnish and Norwegian influence..

Dalarna isn't on the Norwegian border. It borders yes, but the county is in the central of sweden.

Lol_Race
2011-08-05, 17:46
You could just as well call them both Finnic. Both are found from Finland.
They are found in Finland, yes. But, as far as I know, a significantly larger proportion of N1c1 in Scandinavia and some other parts of Europe is L550+ (Varangian + South Baltic) in comparison to Finland. If this proportion is similar in Uppsala, and they still have more N1c1 overall, it would probably be incorrect to attribute that to Finnish admixture.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-05, 18:40
They are found in Finland, yes. But, as far as I know, a significantly larger proportion of N1c1 in Scandinavia and some other parts of Europe is L550+ (Varangian + South Baltic) in comparison to Finland. If this proportion is similar in Uppsala, and they still have more N1c1 overall, it would probably be incorrect to attribute that to Finnish admixture.

L550+ seems to be the main group in the southern Baltic region, but with different SNP composition than in Finland and Sweden. Predictions show a very high distribution of the L550 group in Finland, but we have to wait to see test results.

Viking
2011-08-05, 18:43
The 'Swedish' subclade of N1c1 (in Gotland and Blekinge f.ex, it back to 3000 years) do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with the Finnic languages, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23, with the haplotype itself (all values considered) more closely associated with North Germanic speakers.

From a Finnish source btw. http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/N1c.pdf

According to a certain book, ten percent of the population of Blekinge was Finnish-speaking during the 1600s.

Source:


Rätten till mitt språk
Förstärkt minoritetsskydd
Delbetänkande från Utredningen om finska och sydsamiska språken
Stockholm 2005

Page 218

You can find it on Google böcker.

Balder
2011-08-05, 18:55
According to a certain book, ten percent of the population of Blekinge was Finnish-speaking during the 1600s.

Source:

That pretty much false during this period the region was part of Denmark I very doubt Finns in the region while they were on Swedish jurisdiction.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-05, 18:58
According to a certain book, ten percent of the population of Blekinge was Finnish-speaking during the 1600s.

Source:

I have mentioned this already, but will mention again: in str-comparison I1 in Blekinge is very close the Finnish I1. But I have no SNP information, however I suppose that also in Blekinge many are L22+, but dont know whether they are also L287.

Tuohikirje
2011-08-05, 19:06
Heruls / Eruli / Heruler. Denmark, Blekinge, Värmland, Gotland, SW Finland, Satakunda, Vistula river.

Archaeological finding sites of Herul ring swords.

Janos
2011-08-05, 19:09
Heruls / Eruli / Heruler. Denmark, Blekinge, Värmland, Gotland, SW Finland, Satakunda, Vistula river.

Archaeological finding sites of Herul ring swords.

you forgot to mention uppland.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-05, 19:32
you forgot to mention uppland.

You dont need to be sarcastic. All I1-L22+ men has only one common ancestor, maybe he live in Germany, Poland, Scandinavia or in Finland. If you dont accept Scandinavia, you have still other choices.

Balder
2011-08-05, 20:04
According to a certain book, ten percent of the population of Blekinge was Finnish-speaking during the 1600s.


That pretty much false during this period the region was part of Denmark I very doubt Finns in the region while they were on Swedish jurisdiction.

The only thing related for Finns in Blekinge in 1600s is this, and quite after the annexation of the region to Sweden after 1658.


http://www.galatea.nu/historia/historia.html

När Blekinge blivit svenskt på 1600-talet tvångsförflyttades mer än tusen båtsmän från Finland dit. De var så många att man måste ordna särskilda gudstjänster på finska för dem.

But this is irrelevant in a great looking picture the history of the region.

Gizur
2011-08-07, 23:35
Heruls / Eruli / Heruler. Denmark, Blekinge, Värmland, Gotland, SW Finland, Satakunda, Vistula river.

Archaeological finding sites of Herul ring swords.

Suggesting what? That the Heruli may have brought new DNA when returning home to Värmland?

Jaska
2011-08-13, 10:16
Of course, the Finnic genes in Uppsala are mainly from Southwest Finland, and Western Finns are supposed to be significantly less inbred than Eastern and Northern Finns (Värmlands and Dalarnas Finnish genes originate from Eastern Finland).
Actually Western Finns are a little more inbred than Eastern Finns: see Salmela et al. S3:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519#s5

Even though Eastern Finns are more homozygous than Western Finns. This shows that inbreeding cannot be predicted from homozygosity.


You seem to have bad information about these STR-values. I wonder a bit how long these old "myths" spread on internet. Hakkinen is a wannabe researcher, studied only linguistics.
You are wrong, again: it’s not bad information, it just has very few markers. Here is newer under-construction N1c-tree with 67 markers:
http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/SukupuuN1c.pdf

It is still clear that there are Scandinavian N1c-groups. But you should know these, you have seen these in many Finnish forums.

The diversity in Sweden is great in European context (max. FST 27), but in Finland it is still greater: FST 60. It is well argued to distinguish 7 different Finnish populations.

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/SevenFinnish.xps

Aino
2011-08-13, 19:58
You are wrong, again: it’s not bad information, it just has very few markers. Here is newer under-construction N1c-tree with 67 markers:
http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/SukupuuN1c.pdf



I think it is misleading to use 385a as a distinguishing marker. It is not that stable. Someone with DYS 385a = 12 can belong to the same haplotype group as those with DYS 385a = 11.

Jaska
2011-08-14, 11:45
I think it is misleading to use 385a as a distinguishing marker. It is not that stable. Someone with DYS 385a = 12 can belong to the same haplotype group as those with DYS 385a = 11.
This is one option to derive the Finnish haplotypes from the root haplotype. In the trunk of the N1c-tree the haplotypes only differ by one marker, and it seems (although it is not sure) that one elemental step is in DYS385a. Of course it is equally possible that the western DYS385a = 12 are due to back-mutations, and the true, "original" DYS385a = 12 has not yet been found.

This marker is quite solid, though, at least in N1c. So far it is never 12 when DYS390 = 24, but the variation between values 11 and 12 only concerns the group where DYS390 = 23 (ancestral value). This fits well with the fact that in the N1c founder haplotype there must have been DYS385a = 12 and DYS390 = 23. (We see that by comparing N1c with N1b and N1a).

Of course there may be some other step-by-step-route from the root of N1c-tree to the top, but in any case it must include a mutation DYS385a = 12 > 11 at some point.

It is very possible that some individual values of 12 belong to same group than those of value 11, but then they must share a load of group-internal mutations and they are easy to distinguish. I mean that I don't look only the DYS385a but the whole haplotype: it constitutes a group with haplotypes to which it has the shortest GD (= most similar mutations).

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 12:17
Actually Western Finns are a little more inbred than Eastern Finns: see Salmela et al. S3:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519#s5



Obviously because our researchers dont know who are western and who eastern Finns. They mix western and eastern Finns together into the statistics of Eastern Finns, but dont mix western Finns with eastern Finns into the statistics of western Finns.

sgc2009
2011-08-14, 13:15
This is the kind of studies I've been longing for. Now I'm just waiting for some that compares the counties of all Scandinavian countries aswell as to UK and Germany and the Netherlands.


swedes are not that homogenous, i knew it.

Something I've been trying to tell, but been met with resistance from some Swedish nationalists... :confused:

Jaska
2011-08-14, 13:57
Obviously because our researchers dont know who are western and who eastern Finns. They mix western and eastern Finns together into the statistics of Eastern Finns, but dont mix western Finns with eastern Finns into the statistics of western Finns.
Don't take it personally - even the Western Finns are still very far from the well-known cousin-marriers (Pakistan, Arabia, South-America etc.) ;)

On what do you base your claim? Which of these do you think is then actually western subpopulation and not eastern: North-Karelia, North-Savo, Kainuu or Northern Ostrobothnia? Genetically they all clearly cluster together, far from Western Finns or Southern Ostrobothnians. Therefore they can be bundled into a population called Eastern Finns.

Or do you still disagree?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 15:27
On what do you base your claim? Which of these do you think is then actually western subpopulation and not eastern: North-Karelia, North-Savo, Kainuu or Northern Ostrobothnia? Genetically they all clearly cluster together, far from Western Finns or Southern Ostrobothnians. Therefore they can be bundled into a population called Eastern Finns.

Or do you still disagree?

According Dienekes' project Northern Ostorobothnians have more Scandinavian admix (very likely Swedish) than people in Southwest Finland. It sounds peculiar that Eastern Finns could have MORE Swedish genes than Western Finns. It is only common sense to suppose that more Swedish genes mean more western, and I want to believe to common sense.

Janos
2011-08-14, 15:47
According Dienekes' project Northern Ostorobothnians have more Scandinavian admix (very likely Swedish) than people in Southwest Finland. It sounds peculiar that Eastern Finns could have MORE Swedish genes than Western Finns. It is only common sense to suppose that more Swedish genes mean more western, and I want to believe to common sense.

Northern Ostrobothnia is close to sweden. Techincally it is not eastern finland, but northern.

Jusarius
2011-08-14, 15:56
According Dienekes' project Northern Ostorobothnians have more Scandinavian admix (very likely Swedish) than people in Southwest Finland. It sounds peculiar that Eastern Finns could have MORE Swedish genes than Western Finns. It is only common sense to suppose that more Swedish genes mean more western, and I want to believe to common sense.

So if a group of Eastern Finns (which Northern Ostrobothnians in cultural and linguistic means are) has some Swedish admixture, it turns them into Western Finns even though (other) Eastern Finns would still be their closest genetic relatives? I smell an agenda-inspired fallacy. :P

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 18:00 ----------


Northern Ostrobothnia is close to sweden. Techincally it is not eastern finland, but northern.

Geographically yes. Culturally Finland is grossly divided into the Western and Eastern cultural and linguistic spheres (+ Saami)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 16:13
Here is Swedish maps abouth the progress of Finnish settlements after the crusaders. Noticing that Eastern Finns didnt came to the west or Northwest before the 16th century you can figure who the seaside people there cannot have been. They cannot have been Eastern Finns. I dont understand why Finnish population geneticists know so little about the very well known history, although I have met people who say that these Swedish maps are falsified :confused:

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/scandinavia/s1.htm

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 18:16 ----------


So if a group of Eastern Finns (which Northern Ostrobothnians in cultural and linguistic means are) has some Swedish admixture, it turns them into Western Finns even though (other) Eastern Finns would still be their closest genetic relatives? I smell an agenda-inspired fallacy. :P

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 18:00 ----------



Geographically yes. Culturally Finland is grossly divided into the Western and Eastern cultural and linguistic spheres (+ Saami)

Northern Ostrobothnins are not culturally Eastern Finns. Genetically most of them are Western Finnish. I really smell your agenda far away. They are linguistically western Finns and also the colonization history is western.

Yuo understand Finnish, so here links

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_murteet



Suomen kielen murreryhmät ovat edelleen ryhmiteltävissä kahdeksi päämurrealueeksi. Länsimurteet, joita ovat lounaismurteet, hämäläismurteet, eteläpohjalaiset murteet, keski- ja pohjoispohjalaiset murteet, peräpohjalaiset murteet, ovat kehittyneet kenties voittopuolisemmin myöhäiskantasuomen pohjoiskantasuomalaisesta murteesta ja saaneet enemmän vaikutteita ruotsista ja lounaismurteet aiemmin myös virosta.

google translate


Finnish dialect groups are still to be classified into two main dialect regions. Western dialects, which are SW dialects, Tavastian dielacts, Ostrobothnian dialects, central and northern Ostrobothnian dialects, stern Ostrobothnians dialects have evolved, perhaps mainly later old Finnish northern position of the Finnish dialect, and have more influences from Swedish and Estonian lounaismurteet earlier also.

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keski-_ja_pohjoispohjalaiset_murteet



.

Viking
2011-08-14, 16:25
Here is Swedish maps abouth the progress of Finnish settlements after the crusaders. Noticing that Eastern Finns didnt came to the west or Northwest before the 16th century you can figure who the seaside cannot have been. They cannot have been Eastern Finns. I dont understand why Finnish population geneticists know so little about the very well known history, although I have met people who say that these Swedish mapd are falsified :confused:

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/scandinavia/s1.htm

Here is a more "modern" Swedish map (by Bertil Lundman), which divides Finland into Western Finns (VF) and Eastern Finns (ÖF):

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/rastyper-karta09.jpg

:p

Janos
2011-08-14, 16:31
Here is Swedish maps abouth the progress of Finnish settlements after the crusaders. Noticing that Eastern Finns didnt came to the west or Northwest before the 16th century you can figure who the seaside cannot have been. They cannot have been Eastern Finns. I dont understand why Finnish population geneticists know so little about the very well known history, although I have met people who say that these Swedish mapd are falsified :confused:

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/scandinavia/s1.htm



They are not falsified. They are similar to the maps in my various history books.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 16:39
They are not falsified. They are similar to the maps in my various history books.

Eastern Finnish extremists own ideas that Swedes almost always lie the Finnish history.


Those maps and historical facts prove that Northern Ostrobothnian seaside settlements were Western Finnish and Swedish.



---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 18:40 ----------


Here is a more "modern" Swedish map (by Bertil Lundman), which divides Finland into Western Finns (VF) and Eastern Finns (ÖF):

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/rastyper-karta09.jpg

:p

These are old Swedish racial opinions and dont base on the known history.

Jusarius
2011-08-14, 16:47
Here is Swedish maps abouth the progress of Finnish settlements after the crusaders. Noticing that Eastern Finns didnt came to the west or Northwest before the 16th century you can figure who the seaside people there cannot have been. They cannot have been Eastern Finns. I dont understand why Finnish population geneticists know so little about the very well known history, although I have met people who say that these Swedish maps are falsified :confused:

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/scandinavia/s1.htm

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 18:16 ----------



Northern Ostrobothnins are not culturally Eastern Finns. Genetically most of them are Western Finnish. I really smell your agenda far away. They are linguistically western Finns and also the colonization history is western.

Yuo understand Finnish, so here links

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_murteet

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keski-_ja_pohjoispohjalaiset_murteet



.

From your link:
"Keski- ja pohjoispohjalaiset murteet lasketaan kuuluvaksi länsimurteisiin, vaikka niissä on paljon itämurteiden piirteitä, etenkin savolaismurteista tulleita. Näinpä keski- ja pohjoispohjalaiset murteet luetaankin sekamurteisiin. Ne ovat epäyhtenäisiä, koska ne ovat kehittyneet sekä läntisistä lounais- ja hämäläismurteista että itäisistä savolaismurteista.[2]"

All people in the area considered today Northern Ostrobothnia don't speak Northern Ostrobothnian dialects. For example people in Kuusamo and Taivalkoski speak more or less a variant of Savolaxian. So the people in the area of Nothern Ostrobothnia are either Western/Eastern Finnish mixed (the Western part) or clearly Eastern (the Eastern part of the area).

takoja
2011-08-14, 16:53
Eastern Finnish extremists own ideas that Swedes almost always lie the Finnish history.



These are old Swedish racial opinions and dont base on the known history.

Are you perhaps Eastern Finnish extremist?:unsure:

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 16:58
Are you perhaps Eastern Finnish extremist?:unsure:

Can you read? So read those links I served you. I dont call for more. If you cannot accept what you read, I can only believe that you have an agenda. Please try to keep in facts. I pointed out those who dont believe Swedish history writing, I have met such kind of people, I didnt point you.

I wrote about the swedish history writing, not about old racial opinions. You dont see the diffference?

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 19:18 ----------


From your link:e
"Keski- ja pohjoispohjalaiset murteet lasketaan kuuluvaksi länsimurteisiin, vaikka niissä on paljon itämurteiden piirteitä, etenkin savolaismurteista tulleita. Näinpä keski- ja pohjoispohjalaiset murteet luetaankin sekamurteisiin. Ne ovat epäyhtenäisiä, koska ne ovat kehittyneet sekä läntisistä lounais- ja hämäläismurteista että itäisistä savolaismurteista.[2]"

All people in the area considered today Northern Ostrobothnia don't speak Northern Ostrobothnian dialects. For example people in Kuusamo and Taivalkoski speak more or less a variant of Savolaxian. So the people in the area of Nothern Ostrobothnia are either Western/Eastern Finnish mixed (the Western part) or clearly Eastern (the Eastern part of the area).

Your capability to read Finnish looks incomplete. There is no such conclusions that Northern Ostrobothnians are specially a genetic mix of Western and Eastern Finns. All Finns are mixed Western and Eastern populations. In the first link was stated that Northern Ostrobothnian dialect belongs to old Western dialects. The Northern Ostrobohtnian western seaside belongs to old western Finnish and Swedish settlements while the eastern part belongs to Eastern settlements, both are mixed, western with smaller part of eastern admix and eastern par with small part of western admix.

Finnish history books tell that Eastern Ostrobothnia and Northern Karelia were partly colonized from the Northern Ostrobothnian seaside during the 17th centiry when old inhabitants moved to Russia. It is a parallel event than in west where Savolaxians colonized partly the northern part of Northern Ostrobothnia.

Jaska
2011-08-14, 18:00
According Dienekes' project Northern Ostorobothnians have more Scandinavian admix (very likely Swedish) than people in Southwest Finland. It sounds peculiar that Eastern Finns could have MORE Swedish genes than Western Finns. It is only common sense to suppose that more Swedish genes mean more western, and I want to believe to common sense.
Scandinavian admixture does not necessarily change a genetic relation. Take the Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnians (SSOB), for example: they have FST distance 7 to Finnish-speaking Southern Ostrobothnians (SOB) but FST 13–33 to the subpopulations of Sweden. Yet SOB have FST 33–55 to Sweden. It means that even though SSOB are a mix of SOB and Swedes, they remain very close to SOB, who stay very far from Swedes.

Do you understand? Even if the Northern Ostrobothnian had some Scandinavian admixture, it does not make them any less Eastern Finns: their FST to other Eastern Finnish subpopulations (Savo, Kainuu, Northern Karelia) are 16–18, but their FST to Western Finnish subpopulations (Southwest-Finland, Satakunta, Häme) are 25–37. And their FST to Bothnians (SOB, SSOB) are the greatest, 49–53.

So, you see that there is absolutely no chance that Northern Ostrobothnians could be Western Finns – they are very clearly Eastern Finns. They may have Scandinavian or Western Finnish admixture, but it does not make them Western Finns. You cannot ignore the scientific facts!

I repeat your own words: “If you cannot accept what you read, I can only believe that you have an agenda.” :)


Here is Swedish maps abouth the progress of Finnish settlements after the crusaders. Noticing that Eastern Finns didnt came to the west or Northwest before the 16th century you can figure who the seaside people there cannot have been. They cannot have been Eastern Finns. I dont understand why Finnish population geneticists know so little about the very well known history, although I have met people who say that these Swedish maps are falsified
Those maps and historical facts prove that Northern Ostrobothnian seaside settlements were Western Finnish and Swedish.
This cannot testify against the genes. It is a well known fact that the earliest root in Northern Ostrobothnian inhabitants is Western Finnish. Even their dialect is classified as Western Finnish. Yet this cannot in any case disprove the genetic facts: Northern Ostrobothnians are genetically Eastern Finns. Even though their dialect and some of their ancestors were Western Finns.


Northern Ostrobothnins are not culturally Eastern Finns. Genetically most of them are Western Finnish. I really smell your agenda far away. They are linguistically western Finns and also the colonization history is western.
Wrong, they are not genetically Western Finns. You can see the data I gave you, and you can check it in the genetic studies. You just misunderstood the point:
- You erroneously thought that admixture would automatically tell the genetic relationship.
- You erroneously thought that settlement history would automatically tell the genetic relationship.

Only the genes itself can tell the genetic relationships, and it is clear on the basis of genome-wide studies that Northern Ostrobothnians are Eastern Finns. Do you admit it or do you have an agenda?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 18:10
Do you understand? Even if the Northern Ostrobothnian had some Scandinavian admixture, it does not make them any less Eastern Finns: their FST to other Eastern Finnish subpopulations (Savo, Kainuu, Northern Karelia) are 16–18, but their FST to Western Finnish subpopulations (Southwest-Finland, Satakunta, Häme) are 25–37. And their FST to Bothnians (SOB, SSOB) are the greatest, 49–53.



I read that study you are referring and saw that almost all Nortern Ostrobothnians sample were gathered from two small inland parishes: Pudasjärvi and Utajärvi. Those places were settled by Savolaxians during the 16th and 17th centuries. Do you understand :)

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 20:20 ----------

T. Lappalainen used just same samples from Finland and wrote in her doctor thesis:


Northern Ostrobothnians clustered invariably with the eastern samples, which is consistent with their historical background – however, the samples in this study were collected mostly from the north-eastern parts,and samples from the coastal regions could have clustered differently.

Jusarius
2011-08-14, 20:07
I read that study you are referring and saw that almost all Nortern Ostrobothnians sample were gathered from two small inland parishes: Pudasjärvi and Utajärvi. Those places were settled by Savolaxians during the 16th and 17th centuries. Do you understand :)

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 20:20 ----------

T. Lappalainen used just same samples from Finland and wrote in her doctor thesis:

If Lappalainen et al. only took samples from the North-Eastern parts of NOB then we indeed cannot say at this point that ALL of them are Eastern Finnish genetically. But we still cannot reach a conclusion that they are Western either, can we? You previously claimed Scandinavian admixture would prove them to be Western Finns and that they definitely aren't Eastern.

Viking
2011-08-14, 20:15
According to my own experience, Northern Ostrobothnians do tend to look more similar to Western Finns. I wouldn't claim that Puma Swede (her family came from Northern Ostrobothnia originally) looks more Eastern than Western Finnish...

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 20:21
If Lappalainen et al. only took samples from the North-Eastern parts of NOB then we indeed cannot say at this point that ALL of them are Eastern Finnish genetically. But we still cannot reach a conclusion that they are Western either, can we? You previously claimed Scandinavian admixture would prove them to be Western Finns and that they definitely aren't Eastern.

No, the Scandinavian admix is not the only reason. I believe also to the written history, written by well-known Finnish historians and professors.

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 22:27 ----------


According to my own experience, Northern Ostrobothnians do tend to look more similar to Western Finns. I wouldn't claim that Puma Swede (her family came from Northern Ostrobothnia originally) looks more Eastern than Western Finnish...

Maybe she is my cousin :)

takoja
2011-08-14, 20:37
According to my own experience, Northern Ostrobothnians do tend to look more similar to Western Finns. I wouldn't claim that Puma Swede (her family came from Northern Ostrobothnia originally) looks more Eastern than Western Finnish...

Differences on phenotypes between Western and Eastern Finns are seriously overhyped. If you look at the Finnish national football team for example the most aryan ubermensch nordic guys are Hannu Tihinen...

http://is12.snstatic.fi/kuvat/jatkopestin-saanut-hannu-tihinen-kyparalla-lisaa-pelivuosia/img-1288332428507.jpg

from Lapland.

And Sami Hyypiä...

http://is11.snstatic.fi/kuvat/sami-hyypia-vei-valioliigan-suomalaistaiston/img-1288334550788.jpg

A Karelian.

The most mong guy is Tim Sparv...

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135247602881.jpeg

A Fennoswede.

Coincidence? I think not ;)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-14, 20:50
Differences on phenotypes between Western and Eastern Finns are seriously overhyped.

This is true, and I underline the history. This is why some amateur geneticists bother me...

Grynda
2011-08-14, 21:18
The most mong guy is Tim Sparv...

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135247602881.jpeg

A Fennoswede.

Coincidence? I think not ;)

I wonder how many times pics of this same person have been put up on this site? :whoco: People with this kind of looks are VERY uncommon among Finland-Swedes. :rant:

Viking
2011-08-14, 21:27
I wonder how many times pics of this same person have been put up on this site? :whoco: People with this kind of looks are VERY uncommon among Finland-Swedes. :rant:


Estonians*: Finns*: Karelians*: Saami*: Vepses:* Finnish Swedes*: Russians**

2.3% - 1.9% - 1.8% -7.0% - 1.8% - 1.8% - 0.14%

Source: Estonian anthropologist Karin Mark.

Seems to be as common as among the Karelians. ;)

Jaska
2011-08-15, 00:35
I read that study you are referring and saw that almost all Nortern Ostrobothnians sample were gathered from two small inland parishes: Pudasjärvi and Utajärvi. Those places were settled by Savolaxians during the 16th and 17th centuries. Do you understand :)
Almost all? Not at all, you are now distorting the truth. There are several circles in the coastal area, even one of the bigger circles. Majority (> 50 %) of the samples are from inland, but not "almost all"!

And if we take a look at the individuals in the MDS figure, we can see that there is only one Northern Ostrobothnian who comes slightly closer to Western Finns:

http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519.g002

There should be two different clusters, one of which would be closer to West-Finns, if the coastal NOB's would be genetically Western Finns. Now there is nothing like that.

Yet there can be seen two different NOB-clusters in the figure C (see link), but the smaller (and therefore probably coastal, unless the separation is due to some totally other factor than coast-inland?) cluster goes nicely together with Northern Karelians, while the bigger cluster is closest to Kainuu.

Therefore it seems that there still is no basis for your claim that (even the coastal) Northern Ostrobothnians would be genetically Western Finns. Instead of that division, there are basis to argue that the intra-NOB dichotomy shows ancient Karelian source from the 12th century onwards (smaller cluster) and later Savonian expansion from the 16th century onwards (bigger cluster).



You previously claimed Scandinavian admixture would prove them to be Western Finns and that they definitely aren't Eastern.
No, the Scandinavian admix is not the only reason. I believe also to the written history, written by well-known Finnish historians and professors.
Excuse me, but I find this very shocking. Please, Lemminkäinen, try to answer to the following question, although I know from experience that your superpower is to avoid answering to difficult questions. ;)

QUESTION: Are you really saying that written history could tell about the genetic relationship more accurately than genetic studies?

I don't really understand how you can be so blinded by your agenda. I repeat from my earlier message:

It is a well known fact that the earliest root in Northern Ostrobothnian inhabitants is Western Finnish. Even their dialect is classified as Western Finnish. Yet this cannot in any case disprove the genetic facts: Northern Ostrobothnians are genetically Eastern Finns. Even though their dialect and some of their ancestors were Western Finns.

Day Tripper
2011-08-15, 01:22
And if we take a look at the individuals in the MDS figure, we can see that there is only one Northern Ostrobothnian who comes slightly closer to Western Finns:


Oh dear, you really opened up a new can of worms with this one. ;)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-15, 05:24
Oh dear, you really opened up a new can of worms with this one. ;)

Dont be stupid. All those results that he are referring here are based on the same northeast samples, which T. Lappalainen describes in her doctor thesis (to be from northeast and NOt from old coastal settlements). We have also better samples, used by Jakkula et al 2008. Even it doesnt show primarily old coastal settlements, but she has included them. Jakkula et al shows absolutely different view of Finnish populatons, just because she has understood the effect of migrations in history. This insisting with Jaska is really stupid, because the main auctor, T. Lappalainen admits that her samples dont represent the whole region.

Day Tripper
2011-08-15, 05:30
Dont be stupid. All those results that he are referring here are based on the same northeast samples, which T. Lappalainen describes in her doctor thesis (to be from northeast and NOt from old coastal settlements). We have also better samples, used by Jakkula et al 2008. Even it doesnt show primarily old coastal settlements, but she has included them. Jakkula et al shows absolutely different view of Finnish populaton, just because she has understood the effect of migrations in history. This is really stupid, because the main auctor, T. Lappalainen admits that her samples dont represent the whole region.

I was obviously referring to your distaste for MDS. :|

Your response here is a complete non-sequitor. It must be a misunderstanding based on language. A Canadian English vs. Finnish English sort of thing.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-15, 05:51
I was obviously referring to your distaste for MDS. :|

Your response here is a complete non-sequitor. It must be a misunderstanding based on language. A Canadian English vs. Finnish English sort of thing.

OK, but I am not going to start a discussion about mathematic methods with him. It is also useless because the main question is about samples, not about the MDS, at this time. Even results of a perfect method depend on samples.

Janos
2011-08-15, 06:03
Dont be stupid. All those results that he are referring here are based on the same northeast samples, which T. Lappalainen describes in her doctor thesis (to be from northeast and NOt from old coastal settlements). We have also better samples, used by Jakkula et al 2008. Even it doesnt show primarily old coastal settlements, but she has included them. Jakkula et al shows absolutely different view of Finnish populatons, just because she has understood the effect of migrations in history. This insisting with Jaska is really stupid, because the main auctor, T. Lappalainen admits that her samples dont represent the whole region.

does Jakkula's results correlates with the map about the first settlements to Northern Ostrobothnia?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-15, 06:09
does Jakkula's results correlates with the map about the first settlements to Northern Ostrobothnia?

Yes, its results correlate perfectly. In fact she has MDS/PCA figures that show most of them as the most western Finns, or something that is most distant for Eastern Finns. It is strange. I send those pictures later to the Finnic subforum, now I am busy.

Janos
2011-08-15, 06:22
Yes, its results correlate perfectly. In fact she has MDS/PCA figures that show most of them as the most western Finns, or something that is most distant for Eastern Finns. It is strange. I send those pictures later to the Finnic subforum, now I am busy.

how does her results correlates with the tacitus map?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-15, 07:22
how does her results correlates with the tacitus map?

The allocation of samples dont meet exactly the colonization history but, yes we can conclude that her results correlate with those maps, although more northern samples probably show more arctic similarity.

Jaska
2011-08-15, 13:16
Dont be stupid. All those results that he are referring here are based on the same northeast samples, which T. Lappalainen describes in her doctor thesis (to be from northeast and NOt from old coastal settlements).
Ar you blind or do you lie on purpose? Take a look at the map from the dissertation of Lappalainen, page 36, figure B:
https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/22129

There are many coastal samples! How do you even dare to lie that "all those results that he are referring here are based on the same northeast samples"?! :| They are not all from the same northeast samples, as you can see in the link.

So, sad but true, you truly have an agenda which distorts your objectivity: you have obsession and want to see the Northern Ostrobothnians as Western Finns, even though they are genetically clearly Eastern Finns. :whoco:


Yes, its results correlate perfectly. In fact she has MDS/PCA figures that show most of them as the most western Finns, or something that is most distant for Eastern Finns. It is strange. I send those pictures later to the Finnic subforum, now I am busy.
Why do you lie again? There is no such figure. There is nothing to support your view; see figure S6 in the supplementary data:

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/supplemental/S0002-9297%2808%2900590-9

You also have not understood that there are actually no West-Finns in Jakkula's figures: ESS is lacking, so there are only Eastern-Finns, Southern Ostrobothnians and Laplanders.

Your denial is simply pathological - you just cannot understand anything which disproves your agenda. :( But I wish that all the other readers can see through your lies.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-15, 13:45
Jaska, this is a straight quote from the doctor thesis of T. Lappalainen. From page 54, everyone can go and read it.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/22129


Northern Ostrobothnians clustered invariably with the eastern samples, which is consistent with their historical background – however, the samples in this study were collected mostly from the north-eastern parts,and samples from the coastal regions could have clustered differently.

She had both yDna and mtDna samples from the seaside, but very few aDna samples, especially compared to the population density, and definitely none from then southern seaside of Northern Ostrobothnia.

I'll put you now on my ignore list, I have got enough from your aggressions.

edit
There is ESS in Jakkula et al. Everyone can see it by reading the study, or looking at my message at the Finnic subforum. Southern OStrobothnians (LSW) are Western Finns, and genetically very close Northern Ostrobothnians.

Jaska
2011-08-15, 23:15
Jaska, this is a straight quote from the doctor thesis of T. Lappalainen. From page 54, everyone can go and read it.
Do you understand the word "mostly"? It means more than 50 %. It does not mean all, as you claimed.

And behold, all the forum members: Lemminkäinen once again avoided answering a difficult question. He likes to pretend that the mistakes and errors he makes disappear from this reality if he acts like he never made them... :thumbsup: It is impossible for him to admit that he made a mistake. :confused:


edit
There is ESS in Jakkula et al. Everyone can see it by reading the study, or looking at my message at the Finnic subforum. Southern OStrobothnians (LSW) are Western Finns, and genetically very close Northern Ostrobothnians.
I said that the ESS was not present in the MDS figures. And it is not, see the link I gave.

Southern Ostrobothnians are actually a different population compared to Western-Finns; only geographically they are western - just like are the Northern Ostrobothnians.

It is true that the FST distance between SOB and NOB is smaller in Jakkula et al. 2008 (20) than in Salmela et al. 2008, 2011 (53). Yet in the both studies NOB are still closer to Savonians than SOB: 10 in Jakkula, 16 in Salmela. So the scale is slightly different but the fact remains that NOB are closer to East-Finns than West-Finns or SOB in both studies.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-16, 06:31
I said that the ESS was not present in the MDS figures. And it is not, see the link I gave.

.


You are again wrong, even double times. And you obviously dont know how to read MDS-dimensions.

Also those plots in my post on the Finnic subforum are MDS-plots. And also those plots figuring dimensions from 3 onward (behind your link) include ESS. They have only forgotten the label for ESS.


It is true that the FST distance between SOB and NOB is smaller in Jakkula et al. 2008 (20) than in Salmela et al.

Simply because these two studies use different samples from Northern Ostrobothnia where lives i in fact two different populations, showing more genetic distance than enywhere else in whole Europe; original Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians.


I included a plot from those upper dimensions. You see that there is ESS.

These dimensions reveal that Northern Ostrobothnians have some in Finland only for them typical components. I have concluded by a large data collected from several studies that it is from the Baltic region.

Jaska
2011-08-16, 11:05
You are again wrong, even double times. And you obviously dont know how to read MDS-dimensions.

Also those plots in my post on the Finnic subforum are MDS-plots. And also those plots figuring dimensions from 3 onward (behind your link) include ESS. They have only forgotten the label for ESS.
In the last one you are right: the piggy-pink circles seem to be ESS, even though they forgot to mention it.

In the first claim you have no point: of course I know how to read MDS plots. It is also important to know in which they are based on: FST or IBS.



Simply because these two studies use different samples from Northern Ostrobothnia where lives i in fact two different populations, showing more genetic distance than enywhere else in whole Europe; original Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians.
What are you talking about? Show me one single study where the Northern Ostrobothnians consist of two different clusters, Western Finn and Eastern Finn. There is no such study. Why can't you understand that even the Northern Ostrobothnians in Jakkula et al. 2008 are closer to Savonians than Southern Ostrobothnians, even if there are more coastal and less inland samples than in Salmela et al. 2008? Hello? What is so difficult in this? :o



I included a plot from those upper dimensions. You see that there is ESS.

These dimensions reveal that Northern Ostrobothnians have some in Finland only for them typical components. I have concluded by a large data collected from several studies that it is from the Baltic region.
Yes? Interesting, but this cannot prove that Northern Ostrobothnians are West-Finns.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-16, 11:36
What are you talking about? Show me one single study where the Northern Ostrobothnians consist of two different clusters, Western Finn and Eastern Finn.

There live two populations, with different history and different genes; original Northern Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians. It is a historical truth. We cannot call Savolaxians as Ostrobothnians in a historical meaning.

As I said, you cannot use Finnish internal Fst-numbers to make logical deductions about how internal population are related because a) we dont know how homogeneous these subpopulations are, b) we know nothing about their genetic compositions at individual level by looking Fst-numbers. We should have IBS/IBD results. It could be possible also to use MDS-results, like Dienekes have composed (Cluster Galore analyses). If you can obtain the data from Eveliina Jakkula, I can do it and reveal all results here.

Dienekes' and Polako's admix analyses could give also some hints, but so far they have too little data. So until now we see the difference between these two groups only on the study Jakkula et al., because it is only study including original Northern Ostrobothnians. It shows clearly that ESW1 (original Northern Ostrobothnians) and LSC (Savolaxians) are different populations. All studies based on the samples from T. Lappalainen lack totally of ESW1 samples.

Jaska
2011-08-17, 01:00
There live two populations, with different history and different genes; original Northern Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians. It is a historical truth. We cannot call Savolaxians as Ostrobothnians in a historical meaning.
We were talking about the present-day Northern Ostrobothnians. FST level shows the present-day relationship (= genetic closeness), IBS level (those MDS plots) does not show the present-day relationship (but the measure of common gene pool). See the thread in the Finnic section.

At the present level we cannot distinguish the Savonian-originating Northern Ostrobothnians from the Western Finland -originating Northern Ostrobothnians; the genetic studies show no such division. This is because they got mixed. At the present-day level all the Northern Ostrobothnians are closer to Eastern Finns than Western Finns. Do you follow?


As I said, you cannot use Finnish internal Fst-numbers to make logical deductions about how internal population are related because a) we dont know how homogeneous these subpopulations are, b) we know nothing about their genetic compositions at individual level by looking Fst-numbers. We should have IBS/IBD results. It could be possible also to use MDS-results, like Dienekes have composed (Cluster Galore analyses). If you can obtain the data from Eveliina Jakkula, I can do it and reveal all results here.
FST level tells the present-day relationship. IBS level tells the measure of common "original" gene pool.


Dienekes' and Polako's admix analyses could give also some hints, but so far they have too little data. So until now we see the difference between these two groups only on the study Jakkula et al., because it is only study including original Northern Ostrobothnians. It shows clearly that ESW1 (original Northern Ostrobothnians) and LSC (Savolaxians) are different populations. All studies based on the samples from T. Lappalainen lack totally of ESW1 samples.
Jakkula's study show that the FST distance between Northern Ostrobothnians (ESW1 and ESW2) and Savonians (LSC) is only 10. In English: They are Eastern Finnish subpopulations very close to each other, and farther from Western Finnish subpopulations.

What the Jakkula's study shows (you mean the MDS plots based on the IBD values) is that ESW2 (Northern NOB's) are almost identical to Savonians, while ESW1 (Southern NOB's) are not. In some dimensions ESW1 are closer to Southern Ostrobothnians than ESW2 are. This tells that ESW1 has "original" gene pool more similar to Southern Ostrobothnians, while ESW2 has it more similar to Savonians.

This is a very interesting observation - but it cannot disprove the FST values, which show that at the present-day level both NOB's are closer to Savonians (FST 10) than Southern Ostrobothnians (FST 20).

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-17, 06:52
We were talking about the present-day Northern Ostrobothnians. FST level shows the present-day relationship (= genetic closeness), IBS level (those MDS plots) does not show the present-day relationship (but the measure of common gene pool). See the thread in the Finnic section.



There is still two populations, original Northern Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians, pleselook my avatar.

I just remembered that also Kalevi Wiik showed this significant difference between these people by his excellent yDna work, although yDna can only give hint about the present situation, but his excellent study shows clear diffenece between the seaside and inland. He is one of the best reasearcher as to the Finnish yDna.

Jaska
2011-08-17, 12:14
There is still two populations, original Northern Ostrobothnians and Savolaxians, pleselook my avatar.
You have some major understanding difficulties.
- Your avatar tells the IBS-level, which does not tell the present-day genetic relatedness.
- FST-level tells the present-day genetic relatedness, and it shows that all Northern Ostrobothnians are closer to Savonians than Southern Ostrobothnians.
- The MDS-plot in your avatar tells that there were at some point in the distant past different-originating people in Northern Ostrobothnia. FST-values tell that the Savonian-originating people outbred the Western Finland -originating people, or that the continuous admixing with the nearby Savonians (in the genetical sense) made all the Northern Ostrobothnians to be closer to Eastern Finns.

Do you understand?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-17, 12:25
You have some major understanding difficulties.
- Your avatar tells the IBS-level, which does not tell the present-day genetic relatedness.
- FST-level tells the present-day genetic relatedness, and it shows that all Northern Ostrobothnians are closer to Savonians than Southern Ostrobothnians.
- The MDS-plot in your avatar tells that there were at some point in the distant past different-originating people in Northern Ostrobothnia. FST-values tell that the Savonian-originating people outbred the Western Finland -originating people, or that the continuous admixing with the nearby Savonians (in the genetical sense) made all the Northern Ostrobothnians to be closer to Eastern Finns.

Do you understand?

No, I dont understand you. IBS-scores are not limited only to a certain past, but do show also later similarity/connections.

Jaska
2011-08-17, 12:41
No, I dont understand you. IBS-scores are not limited only to a certain past, but do show also later similarity/connections.
But the point is that they do not tell the present-day genetic closeness like FST does. If there seems to be contradiction between these levels, then the FST-level tells the present situation and the IBS-level tells the "original" situation. The reverse interpretation is not possible.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-17, 13:07
But the point is that they do not tell the present-day genetic closeness like FST does. If there seems to be contradiction between these levels, then the FST-level tells the present situation and the IBS-level tells the "original" situation. The reverse interpretation is not possible.

No, the Fst doesnt tell much about the closeness between groups as a historical fact, it shows only genetic distances. Two population could be quite distant for each other because they have different admixes from third parties, while other two can be closer though they have less or older common history. So f'ex. Southern Otrobothnians could have close historically connections with Tavastians, although it cannot be seen because they have mixed with Finland-Swedes and Tavastians with Savolaxians. This is only an analog, because in reality things are even more complex.

Jaska
2011-08-17, 16:43
No, the Fst doesnt tell much about the closeness between groups as a historical fact, it shows only genetic distances. Two population could be quite distant for each other because they have different admixes from third parties, while other two can be closer though they have less or older common history. So f'ex. Southern Otrobothnians could have close historically connections with Tavastians, although it cannot be seen because they have mixed with Finland-Swedes and Tavastians with Savolaxians. This is only an analog, because in reality things are even more complex.
So you agree with me? Why the hell do you start your reply with "no" if you agree with me? :whoco: I give a free hint: "no" means "ei" in Finnish, "yes" means "kyllä" in Finnish.

FST tells the genetic distance, IBS does not. IBS tells the common gene pool.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-17, 16:56
Of course, but my message was that you cannot conclude historical connections by using plain Fst-numbers. It is like difference between quality and quantity; Finland-Swedes can have a lot of original Swedish genes although they are more distant from Swedes than Germans. Could remember that genes are also functional elements.

Jaska
2011-08-17, 19:18
Of course, but my message was that you cannot conclude historical connections by using plain Fst-numbers. It is like difference between quality and quantity; Finland-Swedes can have a lot of original Swedish genes although they are more distant from Swedes than Germans. Could remember that genes are also functional elements.
Great, then there seems to be no disagreement.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 06:51
I see that I have to express my thoughts more detailedly.

Historical connections means connections in past (yesterday -> very old, generally speaking history) that are provable today. If you cannot prove, it is not a historical connection. When we speak about genetics the historical connection can be seen in our genomes. It doent mean imagined genetic connections in our past. You use Fst-distances and imagine what they mean in the history.

Back to methods. Fst-distance dont tell historical connections, only genetic distance between two population, composed by the researcher, as a whole. IBS tells historical connections from some past that is defined by the segment size to the present.

Janos
2011-08-18, 06:52
I see that I have to express my thoughts more detailedly.

Historical connections means connections in past (yesterday -> very old, generally speaking history) that are provable today. If you cannot prove, it is not a historical connection. When we speak about genetics the historical connection can be seen in our genomes. It doent mean imagined genetic connections in our past. You use Fst-distances and imagine what they means in the history.

Back to methods. Fst-distance dont tell historical connetions, only genetic distance between two population as a whole. IBS tells historical connections from some past that is defined by the segment size to the present.

so historical connections is that sea-side NOB are western finns?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 07:03
so historical connections is that sea-side NOB are western finns?

The seaside has prominent effect there. Seafaring brought foreigners there. Seaside towns exported Finnish products and Northern/Central Ostorbothnians had biggest merchant navies in Finland, and also in whole Russia during the 19th century. But the begining was set by the Swedish king during crusades, and by local people who resisted eastern conquests by bleeding their own blood during centuries.

Tuohikirje
2011-08-18, 07:15
And as a note.

I do not believe in any 'crusades', out of which we have no evidence, none whatsoever.
If Lemminkäinen wants to believe in the 1st 'crusades', fine. It is a personal belief.


But the begining was set by the Swedish king during crusades, and by local people who resisted eastern conquests by bleeding their own blood during centuries.

Janos
2011-08-18, 07:29
And as a note.

I do not believe in any 'crusades', out of which we have no evidence, none whatsoever.
If Lemminkäinen wants to believe in the 1st 'crusades', fine. It is a personal belief.

so how did "finland" (geograhpical area, the country did not exist) became swedish?

Tuohikirje
2011-08-18, 07:34
so how did "finland" (geograhpical area, the country did not exist) became swedish?

Could you specify what you mean.

If Finns moved to Sweden, is it Finnish.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 07:36
And as a note.

I do not believe in any 'crusades', out of which we have no evidence, none whatsoever.
If Lemminkäinen wants to believe in the 1st 'crusades', fine. It is a personal belief.

DOnt mess things. I didnt mention the 1st crusade. Crusades were common in Northern Europe during centuries 13 and 14. Poliically they were whatever, but we speak commonly about crusades. Northern Ostrobothnia was populated during the third crusade to Karelia, although it wasnt in Ostrobothnia equally warlike event. There lived some Karelians, but history books dont mention how they acted at that time.

Huckleberry Finn
2011-08-18, 07:37
...local people who resisted eastern conquests by bleeding their own blood during centuries.
I assume that you are aware of the fact that your heroes such as Vesainen and Halonen were probably savolaxians by descend?

I think that I'm beginning to understand your reasoning. Russians devastated Ostrobothia during 18th century, carelians who were russian citizens did that in the 16th century. Savolaxians are related to carelians i.e. they also are an alien if not even hostile element.

The problem with your reasong is the fact that despite savolaxians are really related to carelians, they became swedish citizens in the early middle ages, after the rebellions against lithuanian landlord of Novgorod. Since that they have been fighting against both russians and fellow carelians, who remained loyal to Novgorod and later Moscov. Sad but true.

Janos
2011-08-18, 07:38
Could you specify what you mean.

If Finns moved to Sweden, is it Finnish.

I mean this:


Originally posted by Tuohikirje
Finland was a kingdom also, the head was the King of Sweden, since Finland and Sweden were united for 600 years.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 07:45
I assume that you are aware of the fact that your heroes such as Vesainen and Halonen were probably savolaxians by descend?



I am not aware where their ancestors came from. How do you know that? I wonder... Halonen could have been, though I dont know him. All Ostrobothnians were heroes :)




I think that I'm beginning to understand your reasoning. Russians devastated Ostrobothia during 18th century, carelians who were russian citizens did that in the 16th century. Savolaxians are related to carelians i.e. they also are an alien if not even hostile element.



Bullshit when we speak about genetics. Dont mess things. Genetics is researching genes, history is history. These are different research areas. Of course OStrobothnians and Karelians were enemies, it is also fact.




The problem with your reasong is the fact that despite savolaxians are really related to carelians, they became swedish citizens in the early middle ages, after the rebellions against lithuanian landlord of Novgorod. Since that they have been fighting against both russians and fellow carelians, who remained loyal to Novgorod and later Moscov. Sad but true.

True, but I have no problem with understanding history. You mess things. Let'stry to keep genes separated from our opinions about the history

Tuohikirje
2011-08-18, 08:02
so how did "finland" (geograhpical area, the country did not exist) became swedish?

I am sure you know this allready. Due to spread of Western Christianisation via Sweden AND other routes (by no means were not 'Swedes', some), modern administration models from Central-Europe, common history, e.g. Tavastians traded and co-operated with the West (Sweden) against the East (Novgorod), Finland (partly) unified with Sweden, under the Swedish King.

Also


fellow carelians, who remained loyal to Novgorod and later Moscov

Partly true and just as a reminder, that Karjala was a zone between the West and the East literally.

Moscow connection is faint, if not nonexistant.


The Letter of Protection by King Birger Magnusson for womankind in Karelia on Oct. 1, 1316.

The original parchment letter was until the end of 19th century kept in the Viipuri (Viborg) city archives. Now it has been moved to the National Archives in Helsinki. The backside of the document contains a writing: Privilege to womankind, wives widows maidens, in Viborg and the whole of Karelia given by King Birger Anno 1316 and similarly confirmed by King Albrecht Anno 1360.

Omnibus presentes litteras jnspecturis, Birgerus dei gracia Sueorum gothorumque rex Salutem jn Domino sempiternam Tenore presencium notum esse volumus tam posteris quam modernis, Nos de consilio et consensu Nobilium virorum Dominorum Kanuti Jonsson legiferi ostgotorum, Thorwi Kætilsson, et Johannis Brunckow dapiferi nostri, nec non et aliorum consiliariorum nostrorum dilectorum firmiter statuisse, quasi pro lege servandum, quod mulieres omnes seu femine nostre dicioni subjecte juxta castrum nostrum Wyborgh vel in terra Karelie habitantes, sint coniugate, vidue, continentes, aut virgines plena debent pace et securitate gaudere, sicut in ipso regno nostro Suecie jn rebus pariter et personis, acerbissima contra transgressores nostra vindicta regia procedente, Quare omnibus et singulis firmiter prohibemus, Ne quis mulieres seu feminas supra dictas, jniurijs aliquibus gravare vel molestare presumat, aut ipsis inferre violenciam aliquam corporalem, sicut regiam nostram evitare voluerit vlcionem, Eam videlicet, que in regno nostro suecie predicto pro lege servatur. Datum Yninge Anno Domini M.o CCC.o sexstodecimo, prima die octobris.

All who will see this letter, we Birger, by the grace of God King of the Swedes and the goths, Salute wishing eternal Salvation in Lord. Through this note we will for both those to come as well for those living now, following the advice and consent of the Noble men Gentlemen Canute Jonsson, the judge (lagman) of the ostrogoths, Thor Kætilsson, and Johannes Brunckow, our high chancellor (drots) and other members of our council, firmly pass a statute, to be obeyed as a law, that all wives and women who live subjected to our castle of Vyborg or in the land of Karelia be they married, widows, nuns or virgins, shall enjoy peace and security like in our realm Sweden herself for both in property and person, so that our royal punishment will most severely meet the transgressors. Therefore all and everyone are strictly prohibited from burdening the foregoing wives and women with any kind of injustice or molesting, or inflicting on them any kind of corporal violence, if he wants in our kingdom to avoid the punishment, which is what is in our Swedish realm told in the due law. Date Yninge Anno Domini 1316, on the first of October.

Jaska
2011-08-18, 12:58
Back to methods. Fst-distance dont tell historical connections, only genetic distance between two population, composed by the researcher, as a whole. IBS tells historical connections from some past that is defined by the segment size to the present.
Exactly. That’s just what I’ve said. So you just erroneously disagreed earlier, because you didn’t read or understand my message.

Do you now understand that FST-distance tells that Northern Ostrobothnians are now Eastern-Finns, even though they historically have some Western-Finnish component?

Do you understand that FST-closeness cannot occur by chance? That FST-closeness requires recent large-scale interaction between subpopulations?

I repeat:
- FST-level tells the present-day genetic relatedness, and it shows that all Northern Ostrobothnians from Jakkula et al. 2008 (ESW1 and ESW2) are closer to Savonians (FST 10) than Southern Ostrobothnians (FST 20). More-inland NOB's from Salmela et al. 2008, 2011 are even much farther from SOB's (FST 53) than from Savonians (FST 16).
- The MDS-plot based on IBS in your avatar tells that there were at some point in the distant past different-originating people in Northern Ostrobothnia. Yet the FST-values tell that the Savonian-originating people outbred the Western Finland -originating people, or that the continuous admixing with the nearby Savonians (in the genetical sense) made all the Northern Ostrobothnians to be closer to Eastern Finns.

Do you understand?

P.S. This is quite a Finn-dominated thread... :)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 13:18
Do you now understand that FST-distance tells that Northern Ostrobothnians are now Eastern-Finns, even though they historically have some Western-Finnish component?



No, because they are not Eastern Finns and Fst-distances dont prove anything about with whom they have ancestral components because Fst-numbers dont tell it.

Another thing that I have not mentioned yet. Results in Fst numbers depends on how samples are selected, on the other hand individual results using IBS tell individual results and this method is not vulnerable for bad sample make-up.




I repeat:

- The MDS-plot based on IBS in your avatar tells that there were at some point in the distant past different-originating people in Northern Ostrobothnia.



No, it si not like that. MDS-plots, although they have weak points, show all common segments from the selected segment size to the present day. Notonly some point in the distant past. I have already told this to you.




Yet the FST-values tell that the Savonian-originating people outbred the Western Finland -originating people, or that the continuous admixing with the nearby Savonians (in the genetical sense) made all the Northern Ostrobothnians to be closer to Eastern Finns.



Only in your opionions and hopes :)

Jaska
2011-08-18, 13:34
No, because they are not and Fst-distances dont prove anything about with whom they have ancestral components because Fst-numbers dont tell it.
Please, don't embarrass yourself by answering before you have understand what I said and what you are going to say. You just said yourself that "Fst-distance dont tell historical connections, only genetic distance between two population."

Now this shouldn't be news to you, because I have said this several times: FST-distances tell that NOB's are closer to Savonians than SOB's. They are so close to Savonians that they belong to the same Eastern Finnish population. They are farther from Western Finns, so they cannot belong to Western Finnish population.

How is it even possible that you cannot understand this? :o Even a chimp would understand this. :| Either you are just playing a fool, or then you have a serious brain damage, in which case I feel sorry for you. The third option is that you have an obsession to be always right, so that always when you are wrong you must close your eyes and keep on off-topicing. :whoco:

Well, I know that all the other forum members understand this, so please do not make a bigger fool of yourself by replying to this message - unless you at last understand that NOB's are not Western Finns.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 14:00
Please, don't embarrass yourself by answering before you have understand what I said and what you are going to say. You just said yourself that "Fst-distance dont tell historical connections, only genetic distance between two population."



Yeah, it tells only the distance between selected sample groups. You are right.




Now this shouldn't be news to you, because I have said this several times: FST-distances tell that NOB's are closer to Savonians than SOB's. They are so close to Savonians that they belong to the same Eastern Finnish population. They are farther from Western Finns, so they cannot belong to Western Finnish population.



No, it doesnt tell about the origin of selected people in tested groups. It cannot, because it tells only the genetic distance between groups which are named like A or B.




How is it even possible that you cannot understand this? :o Even a chimp would understand this. :| Either you are just playing a fool, or then you have a serious brain damage, in which case I feel sorry for you. The third option is that you have an obsession to be always right, so that always when you are wrong you must close your eyes and keep on off-topicing. :whoco:



Are you telling that a chimp would be better companion for you. Should I agree this? I do, if it is your wish. Do you have already bananas to keep her/his attention alive?

Jusarius
2011-08-18, 16:51
Lemminkäinen, what do you mean by saying FST doesn't tell about history? It tells SOBs became East Finns through mixing with Savonians. Genetic distance tells who we are genetically today. It has become clear that the only real weakness of the analysis is that it gave wrong results, isn't it?

Lol_Race
2011-08-18, 17:01
What's going on, Lemminkäinen using MDS plots to make a point? I thought I'd never see the day.

Jaska
2011-08-18, 17:34
No, it doesnt tell about the origin of selected people in tested groups. It cannot, because it tells only the genetic distance between groups which are named like A or B.
That was just my point: it does not tell the origin, it tells the present situation!
Why the hell do you say "no" when you say the same thing as I just did?! :o And this happened even repeatedly...

Man, your messages really give a strong impression of a serious retard. :thumbsup:
Please, feel free to entertain us yet more. :D For example, why wouldn't you try to argue once more, why the Northern Ostrobothnians are Western Finns even though the genetic studies show that they are Eastern Finns? This will be fun...

You may say, for example, that NOB's are Western Finns because you have Swedish ancestors. Try that, would you, please?

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 17:51
What's going on, Lemminkäinen using MDS plots to make a point? I thought I'd never see the day.

:) I have to use same studies than Jaska, otherwise he will dispute my proofs.

---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 19:54 ----------


Lemminkäinen, what do you mean by saying FST doesn't tell about history? It tells SOBs became East Finns through mixing with Savonians. Genetic distance tells who we are genetically today. It has become clear that the only real weakness of the analysis is that it gave wrong results, isn't it?

Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are Eastern Finns too? I knew this would happen in some point...

Jusarius
2011-08-18, 17:57
Swedish speaking Ostrobothnians are Eastern Finns too? I knew this would happen in some point... Sorry, I meant NOB of course.

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 18:00
That was just my point: it does not tell the origin, it tells the present situation!


It tells only the genetic distance between groups A and B. Group A and B are defined as you want.

This discussion is reaching the point where only used arguments are personal insults. For that reason I close this case now before this goes too mad.

---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 20:02 ----------


Sorry, I meant NOB of course.

Ok, you have said it.

Viking
2011-08-18, 18:08
Haha, are the rivalries between the (Western and Eastern) Finns really this huge? Not even the "main" Swedes fight with the Skåne people this much, or are that afraid of eventually having Skåne genes or ancestors. Perhaps PeterThaG was right after all, when saying that Western and Eastern Finns were two different nations? ;)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-18, 18:13
Haha, are the rivalries between the (Western and Eastern) Finns really this huge? Not even the "main" Swedes fight with the Skåne people this much, or are that afraid of eventually having Skåne genes or ancestors. Perhaps PeterThaG was right after all, when saying that Western and Eastern Finns were two different nations? ;)

PTG had his points.

Tuohikirje
2011-08-18, 19:29
Haha, are the rivalries between the (Western and Eastern) Finns really this huge? Not even the "main" Swedes fight with the Skåne people this much, or are that afraid of eventually having Skåne genes or ancestors. Perhaps PeterThaG was right after all, when saying that Western and Eastern Finns were two different nations? ;)

Not.

Lemminkäinen has just been very western and cranky for a few days.

:lol:

Jaska
2011-08-19, 02:50
It tells only the genetic distance between groups A and B. Group A and B are defined as you want.
Of course: every group is defined as "you" or someone wants. In genetic studies the groups are defined on the basis of grandparental birthplace.

We all see that you have no points to support your absurd and contra-scientific claim that NOB's are Western Finns, and therefore you just "do the Simonahos" and talk native-like rubbish, wishing that everyone would forget your mistake.



This discussion is reaching the point where only used arguments are personal insults. For that reason I close this case now before this goes too mad.
Only thing gone mad here seems to be yourself. I have repeated the genetic arguments many times, but you have decided to ignore them and keep your absurd religious belief. :whoco:

It's just unbelievable how foolish can you act when trying to "save" your face by denying your mistake. Wouldn't it just be easier to admit that you made a mistake or had one of your typical misunderstandings? Just say: "Sorry dudes, I don't know what mental illness / temporary blackout struck me when I erroneously claimed that Northern Ostrobothnians are Western Finns."

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-19, 06:46
Not.

Lemminkäinen has just been very western and cranky for a few days.

:lol:

I am telling the truth, Western Finns are old civilized people and original Finns. It is only what the Finnish history tells about us. They have done almost everything that is worth to mention in our history.

Viking
2011-08-19, 11:24
I am telling the truth, Western Finns are old civilized people and original Finns. It is only what the Finnish history tells about us. They have done almost everything that is worth to mention in our history.

As far as I know, Karhunkynsi once said that the Novgorod (Eastern?) Finns used to call the Western Finns/Tavastians "ruotsalaiset perkele" (I'm guessing that means something like "darn Swedes"?). Even today, many Swedes tend to call Eastern Finns "real Finns", and Western Finns as something like "Finnish-speaking Scandinavians/Germanics" or just "Swedish-descendants". And it's not just a view of Swedish nationalists, but I've also heard a regular Swedish woman with quite politically correct views say it to a Finn. Then the Finn said something like this: "But my family came from an area where there lived just Finns, so I am Finnish".

takoja
2011-08-19, 11:47
As far as I know, Karhunkynsi once said that the Novgorod (Eastern?) Finns used to call the Western Finns/Tavastians "ruotsalaiset perkele" (I'm guessing that means something like "darn Swedes"?). Even today, many Swedes tend to call Eastern Finns "real Finns", and Western Finns as something like "Finnish-speaking Scandinavians/Germanics" or just "Swedish-descendants". And it's not just a view of Swedish nationalists, but I've also heard a regular Swedish woman with quite politically correct views say it to a Finn. Then the Finn said something like this: "But my family came from an area where there lived just Finns, so I am Finnish".

What Karhunkynsi propably meant with that is that originally the word Ruotsi was what Eastern Finns called Western Finns. It was only later that this words meaning changed to Swedes. Also Western Finns likened to sometimes call Eastern Finns Ruskies because of the Novgorod Karelians political affiliations with them.

Anyway, Lemmi has some unique ideas of Finnishness. He seems to treat this as somekind of competition of who is the most Finnish etc. That kind of ideas are usually quite alien to Finns. I suspect it might be his Swedish heritage causing this. ;)

Lemminkäinen
2011-08-19, 12:15
Anyway, Lemmi has some unique ideas of Finnishness. He seems to treat this as somekind of competition of who is the most Finnish etc. That kind of ideas are usually quite alien to Finns. I suspect it might be his Swedish heritage causing this. ;)

Usually Western and Eastern Finns dont speak about these questions, they are quietly, but Jaska's gorgeous genetic studies inspired me a bit. I see that you are a man with good mental tolerance.

Jaska
2011-08-19, 15:03
Usually Western and Eastern Finns dont speak about these questions, they are quietly, but Jaska's gorgeous genetic studies inspired me a bit. I see that you are a man with good mental tolerance.
Mate, I have done no genetic studies, I already told you that. I'm a linguist. I only read and understand genetic studies and then rewrite in fluent Common Tongue what's inside them. Everyone can check those studies if they want to see the primary source.