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Skadesisuolu
2011-08-08, 17:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3o8TFn74n0&feature=related ("Soittelen soutusalmen suorimaista")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i9XW2f1ylM&NR=1 ("Ellös huolta huomisesta")

http://www.equaldreams.com/ed/product?song=8942 (samples karelian yoik)

Aila
2011-08-09, 04:04
Skadesi,
You probably will not, but I ask anyway.
Can you tell us about joik?

Have never joiked in my life. I have my assumptions about it, but no first-hand experience and besides, joik as a cultural form doesn't belong to me.

In the classification section (a thread about Joni Mitchell), what caught my attention was one of the comments to this song:
(-about needing to feel the river rather than trying to understand).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkHoznkMb_w&feature=related


What I do however know something about, - is "singing".
I understand "the singing" in a landscape, "the singing" of a rock formation or a special tree for example, plus some other aspects about "singing".
And I have used a certain type of music/song (a bit similar to the joik above) to journey back to my childhood forests, to thank the elements in it for their nurturing presence as I was growing up.
With a right kind of song one can express all the love one has inside, deep from one's heart and from one's very soul.

JaM
2011-08-09, 12:13
Is that really counted as yoik? It sounds more like Evenk song than yoik to me! (Not that I say that there's any connection at all, of course, just the way it sounds). Impressive voices in any case.

I wonder how traditional it is, and how much of it which is their own creation - perhaps a little inspired by foreign influences?

What does she say here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZosDWMyKo&NR=1

Tuohikirje
2011-08-09, 13:08
Is that really counted as yoik? It sounds more like Evenk song than yoik to me! (Not that I say that there's any connection at all, of course, just the way it sounds). Impressive voices in any case.

I wonder how traditional it is, and how much of it which is their own creation - perhaps a little inspired by foreign influences?

Karelian Kalevala-metre rune singing and weeping (I do not know what they are in English), 'runolaulu' i.e. poem, rune singing and 'itku' i.e. weeping, crying (on special occassions like funerals) are more common according to my knowledge.

An example of rune singing (by Finnish metal band Ensiferum!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4&feature=related

JaM
2011-08-09, 13:17
Karelian Kalevala-metre rune singing and weeping (I do not know what they are in English), 'runolaulu' i.e. poem, rune singing and 'itku' i.e. weeping, crying (on special occassions like funerals) are more common according to my knowledge.

An example of rune singing (by Finnish metal band Ensiferum!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4&feature=related

That's obviously totally different - and not too dissimilar to general Scandinavian medieval songs. Maybe a tad more gloomy. Definitely just singing, not yoiking.

Ps. apparently not just Evenk, but also Mongolian singing, some of the singing techniques are similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhlLH2OxQuk&feature=related

JaM
2011-08-09, 14:38
Just saw this, Oroquen song (Tungusic). This reminds me a lot of a yoik by one Solveig Andersson. I couldn't find it (and it's not Karelian) but it's somewhere on Youtube. I kind of wonder if some of the artists are inspired by songs like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbIizrbIam4&feature=related

Aila
2011-08-09, 16:32
An example of rune singing (by Finnish metal band Ensiferum!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4&feature=related


Oh, that is so lame! (*rolls one's eyes and goes to coma*)
The song has no chanting quality, no energy, no direction, no purpose, no meaning.
They turned it into a "Scandinavian medieval song" and now it is as dead as a doornail.

Shamanhood symbolism and epic by Pentikäinen Juha

The octosyllabic metric pattern in the sacred singing of the Nenets is typical of shamanic singing throughout Eurasia. Since this same octosyllabic pattern is known as the so-called Kalevala troachaeic meter expressed by the Finnish, Karelian and Estonien epic, which also have carried strong sacred meanings, we maybe are faced towards some interesting hypotheses which certainly will bring forward new indicators for the definitions of the age of the poems and their sacred functions. Matti Kuusi even suggested their Neolithic origin and writes that "some Pre-Finnic code for performing of mythical epics and ritual texts based possibly on unfixed or four-stressed lines characterized by alliteration and repetition", and that the octosyllabic singing was a natural part of Uralic languages ever since the Proto-Uralic period back to 6000 years. The religious context becomes manifest from the conservative aspect of shamanic tradition in their relation to sacred contexts. Contemporary research on Siberian shamanism shows that before a language dies, its last breathing takes place in the sacred codes of shamanic rituals.

This is like some modern art installation video using ancient imagery and old recordings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-EQtrL7Ik

Does the song between 1.44 - 2.18 sound like a Kalevala chant to you?

Tuohikirje
2011-08-09, 16:48
Yes, I noticed it was slow and modern performance, but it still gives the idea of Kalevala-metre.

The originals have not found their way to YouTube.

And, yes it does because of the 'same pattern' than in rune songs.

JaM
2011-08-09, 16:51
That's similar to a lot of the singing in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xIGMNZcrHU

Tuohikirje
2011-08-09, 17:00
I wonder how traditional it is, and how much of it which is their own creation - perhaps a little inspired by foreign influences?

What does she say here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZosDWMyKo&NR=1


It is traditional from Viena Karelia. She describes the yoik singing. It would take a while to translate...

Skadesisuolu
2011-08-10, 11:18
Skadesi,
You probably will not, but I ask anyway.
Can you tell us about joik?


Here is a good source describing and explaining yoik:

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/giella/music/yoiksunna.htm

Aila
2011-08-11, 03:59
Here is a good source describing and explaining yoik:

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/giella/music/yoiksunna.htm

Some pointers from the link that you provided:

A yoik is not merely a description; it attempts to capture its subject in its entirety: it's like a holographic, multi-dimensional living image, a replica, not just a flat photograph or simple visual memory. It is not about something, it is that something. It does not begin and it does not end. A yoik does not need to have words – its narrative is in its power, it can tell a life story in song. The singer can tell the story through words, melody, rhythm, expressions or gestures.

Rightly or wrongly assumed (?), but the first thing that comes to my mind here is Wimme's Duoldi Aja or Bajan Riegada.
With the first high notes of Duoldi Aja, one is "transported" into an Arctic landscape. One can see it, feel it and almost touch it, smell it.
And in Bajan Riegada, with the use of the drum one is in the presence of a thunder cloud.
(That is my favourite. Love it.)



Which brings one to this point (again rightly or wrongly assumed by me?):

It is not the one who composes a yoik who owns it, but rather that which is yoiked.
A joiker is merely a "conduit" of that which is being joiked or a joiker is deepening his/her connection with the referential object?
(Which can kinda be the same thing, in a sense that "if you want to know the truth about something, you have to become it").

…the melody is closely connected to the referential object in an indissoluble relationship.




And:

The yoik's "referential function" also enables the yoik to "remove distance: the friend who is gone is brought back through a yoik".
With the first notes of Duoldi Aja, I am back up North and then one can use the joik as a "thread" or like a wave in a pond and follow it to it's center, thus deepening the "felt" Arctic presence.




The regular concept of a western European song is that it has a start, a middle and an ending. In that sense, a song will have a linear structure. A yoik seems to start and stop suddenly. It hasn't a start or neither an ending. Yoik is definitively not a line, but it is perhaps a kind of circle. Yoik is not a circle that would have Euclidian symmetry although it has maybe a depthsymmetry. That emphasizes that if you were asking for the start or the ending of a yoik, your question would be wrong.

If joik is not a linear structure and is connected to the traditional worldview, then joik is more or less connected to all aspects of life and not compartmentalized, thus limited into just one function?



Am I on the right track here or gone somewhere else? :unsure:
In other words am I projecting my views onto joik or am I somewhat perceiving it?

Aila
2011-08-13, 04:56
Not every Saami joiks but.
I only knew one, the roundabout Saami/Karelian relative who recalls his father's joiks.

But if one doesn't practice one's culture in a way or another, the continuity of that culture is lost and it is then being replaced by another's.


Another important distinction between the yoik and the Western song, according to acclaimed multimedia Sami artist Nils-Aslak Valkeapää, is that "the yoik was never intended to be performed as art" (Valkeapää, cited in Krumhansl et al. 6).

Nothing wrong with performing arts either as an extra aspect, as long as the foundation of the songs is the living cultural/traditional worldview.


I thought that this piece of rune singing was/is a good example of a song which no longer serves a purpose i.e. has no living function in the old or traditional worldview. The continuity/practice of that worldview got lost and was replaced with another's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4&feature=related
So it is not only as dead as a doornail, it is stuck. A broken record in a time-warp. Living cultures don't get stuck like that, they evolve.



It is good though that the Viena Karelian joik tradition is being revived.
If some, maybe one could call them, "energetic threads" of the cultural continuity are still alive, one can do that.
"Reconstruction" imo. is like trying to beat a dead horse (like in the above mentioned rune-song).




Unless of course one thinks that nothing of the old wordview is worth saving into the future and for the future generations.

Tuohikirje.
You have mentioned about your (Viena way) Saami and also about your Karelian ancestry.
What do you see yourself as a continuity of?
What old cultural forms would you like to revive in your own life or see as being revived?
What would you change (though still retaining the original "energy")?

Or were you brought up in Sweden and thus not exposed to any of these old cultural elements or practices?
Apart from receiving the four winds hats, was there nobody/anybody (?) in your family to pass some of these "energetic threads" to you?

If there was. Do you feel a personal responsibility of some of that continuity weighing on your shoulders?
How do you then deal with contradictory elements? ( for example Nils-Aslak Valkeapää quote above).
Or do you not see many contradictions?

Tuohikirje
2011-08-13, 13:47
You have mentioned about your (Viena way) Saami and also about your Karelian ancestry.
What do you see yourself as a continuity of?
What old cultural forms would you like to revive in your own life or see as being revived?
What would you change (though still retaining the original "energy")?

Or were you brought up in Sweden and thus not exposed to any of these old cultural elements or practices?
Apart from receiving the four winds hats, was there nobody/anybody (?) in your family to pass some of these "energetic threads" to you?

If there was. Do you feel a personal responsibility of some of that continuity weighing on your shoulders?
How do you then deal with contradictory elements? ( for example Nils-Aslak Valkeapää quote above).
Or do you not see many contradictions?

I am a novice.

Families were broken, not only due to ceded areas, also physically and mentally due to the war, needless to say.

My dear grandmother, I remember her mostly as under 5 years of age, sang to me. I remember
it, but there are no words in my memory. Only the place and the feeling.

I have not been taught specifically Sami or Karelian beliefs or religions, yet as soon it was possible I independently resigned from the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

I am a very animal loving person, I have had cats, dogs, rabbits, horses, I still do. I take care of birds' winter feedings, squirrels, hedgehogs, pheasants. Am I the only one, who had an encounter with a young bear?

I have been sensitive experiencing unexplainable phenomenas or am I just the only one sometimes
remembering to mention it. I am not a timid person or never have been looking for anything extraordinary.

The eagle owl scared us to death on the way to the North and got me to think.

The raven followed my father, he had a raven as a child. Also when the world stopped still, there was me and...the black raven.

I do feel responsibility, again never pressed, stated or taught to me specifically. It is natural and
I cannot think of any contradictions at this point of my life. There is still so much I do not know,
have not been told, places to go and see, remember and revive.

Aila
2011-08-15, 07:03
Tuohikirje,
Thank you for responding.

I have posted these quotes before:
Korpela Jukka. The World of Ladoga. Society, Trade, Transformation and State Building in the Eastern Fennoscandian Boreal Forest Zone c. 1000-1555

The World of Ladoga is not a chronological narrative. Rather, after providing a critical bibliographical essay, Korpela introduces his readers to the physical, demographic and even mental landscapes of the region and surveys the results of studies conducted by archaeologists, anthropologists, ethnobiologists, geneticists, linguists and paleoecologists. It is through these studies that he is able to unveil the otherwise hidden history of the remote population that dwelled in the forests and on the lake shores of the region. The population he discerns formed a small, isolated, seminomadic family or co resident groups, supplemented hunting and fishing with slash-and-burn agriculture, adopted shamanistic spiritual beliefs and practices, travelled the waterways to meet occasionally with neighboring and even more distant groups for social, ritual and trading purposes, but had little need to develop supralocal political structures or mechanisms for military defence.

I got the continuity of my worldview and belonging from my (mtDNA V) short (something like 135cm) dark (continuity of hunting lifestyle diet?) grandmother, whose ancestors came from a said Lapp-wilderness area (within the Proto-Saami lands).

I wasn't taught joik and many of the cultural forms, she and my other Karelian grandparents went silent about.
The only "energetic thread" (or the very basic core-practice know-how) I inherited, - was this:

The exclusive use of the concept of seita in the north can be attributed to the tradition of writing national histories, which has led scolars to create an ethnic division between the Sami and Finns/Carelians. In fact there is no difference in principle between a seita and any other holy trees or cult stone formation (such as a cup-marked stone or labyrinth). Ake Hulrkranz, who refuses to establish religious categories according to language and preferes to speak of a circumpolar religious world in Arctic and sub-Arctic regions, lists as typical phenomena for this world a powerful spiritualism, animal beliefs and animal ceremonialism, a bear cult, the worship of stones and trees and an exaggerated Shamanism. According to him one characteristic feature of circumpolar religions is the world pillar, as manifested in the cult of stones and trees. There is no reason whatsoever in this context to draw a line between the religious world and cult objects of the Sami and those of other Finnic hunter-fisher populations.



About the Vikings, the Rus, even Christianity, - my grandmother was blank about. None of that existed in her reality or awareness. Those to her would have been like the culture, the history and the mentality of "others" (or imposed by "others").

So, because I wasn't given any threads of continuity, energetic or otherwise of anything else except that one, my view is very subjective and very narrow, limited to that one aspect of culture and history, which I however bloody-mindedly hang onto, (like Lemmi hangs onto his versions).

Therefore I cannot claim the glorious raiding histories of the Vikings, nor the advancement of the magnificent Rus, nor the history/culture of the advancing early civilized "highway-warrior-Finns", whatever, nor can I identify with the Chudes. I have no threads of those, and besides all that would have been a contradiction to what my gran was about.


When following her thread into the past, (like "singing" the past into the present) we came from the back-woods, "behind the God's back, beyond the black stump" and I see no shame in that, got no compulsive urge to prove anything otherwise. Besides, I have found that particular "energetic thread" to be immensely enriching, because it also puts one into the-three-worlds worldview i.e. into depth reality.

But because her family is old (they seem to have been there like forever), I am so inbred I guess, related to almost everyone in that area of Karelia and no doubt there are many relatives with different subjective-reality-views of history and culture according to their perspectives and where they originally came from.



Whether she carried any Proto-Saami genes, I don't know. But at least I got my dry earwax mutation :) from her.
There was a sense of an "other race" present in her. So following or "singing" that "energetic thread" of the past into the present, I did come to a Siberian etc. connections, which Finns (at the time) didn't seem to know anything about, so for the longest time I thought that I was the only one.

Now whether that sort of "singing the past into the present" relates to joik-practice in any shape or form or even in non-form, i.e. if there is a tangible proven connection, I would like to know ____ though it doesn't like really matter, because the main thing is that it works.



Don't want to get more into depth about this, but I nevertheless would hate to see all the "energetic threads" of the past to die out, go extinct, be they Ancient Karelian or Saami, Siberian, Native American or Australian Aboriginal.

Aila
2011-08-16, 11:57
Well, to learn something everyday ____.
Whilst I was looking for a quote to post onto another thread, did read on a link here:.
http://www.helsinki.fi/~sugl_smi/senc/en/esittely.htm

According to the present state of knowledge, the Early Proto Saami element emerged from the Saami-Finnish basis in Finland, East Karelia and later in Scandinavia. The historically known pre-Christian worldview of the Saami had significantly differentiated from the underlying background of the Uralic heritage. The differences with regard to the assumed Uralic proto-culture (and the Finnish heritage that largely preserved its core conceptions) are so fundamental in nature that they cannot be explained by a long, separate prehistory or e.g. by Scandinavian contacts. For example, the horizontal world view characteristic of the Uralic cultures was clearly secondary for the Saami, while a vertical conception (the upper, middle and nether worlds) was in turn markedly emphasized. Despite the large rivers of Lapland, water routes were of relatively minor importance in mythical imagery, and the northern quarter did not have the role of referring to the afterlife that it was characteristic of it in the Uralic cultures. One possible explanation is that when spreading into the north the Saami incorporated some unknown non-Uralic people and culture. This assumption would explain both the genetic and cultural differences.

That is quite an apt description of Karelians as well.
Whilst majority of people do hold the "horizontal worldview" (which I thought to be the newer overlay) you will get the odd person here and there who does remember and who also does, in their being, reflect the vertical; - which very much belonged to the (what I saw as >) the older layer of the hunting culture.

None of my other Karelian grandparents oriented themselves in this Axis Mundi, the vertical feature, the World Pillar manner, but it was my first worldview.
And I am not saying that it is Saami or from Saami, but perhaps it did originate from the old Lapp/Karelian hunting culture "gray" area & era. And perhaps the longer some people stayed in their Ancestral lands and the longer they still hunted, the longer they also held onto that old shamanic vertical feature worldview.

Tuohikirje
2011-08-16, 12:29
Well, to learn something everyday ____.
Whilst I was looking for a quote to post onto another thread, did read on a link here:.
http://www.helsinki.fi/~sugl_smi/senc/en/esittely.htm


That is quite an apt description of Karelians as well.
Whilst majority of people do hold the "horizontal worldview" (which I thought to be the newer overlay) you will get the odd person here and there who does remember and who also does, in their being, reflect the vertical; - which very much belonged to the (what I saw as >) the older layer of the hunting culture.

None of my other Karelian grandparents oriented themselves in this Axis Mundi, the vertical feature, the World Pillar manner, but it was my first worldview.
And I am not saying that it is Saami or from Saami, but perhaps it did originate from the old Lapp/Karelian hunting culture "gray" area & era. And perhaps the longer some people stayed in their Ancestral lands and the longer they still hunted, the longer they also held onto that old shamanic vertical feature worldview.

How would you shortly describe the differences between the horizontal and vertical world views?

takoja
2011-08-16, 12:47
Is that really counted as yoik? It sounds more like Evenk song than yoik to me! (Not that I say that there's any connection at all, of course, just the way it sounds). Impressive voices in any case.

I wonder how traditional it is, and how much of it which is their own creation - perhaps a little inspired by foreign influences?

What does she say here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZosDWMyKo&NR=1

She's speaking about something called kelkettely. Finnish wiki says about kelkettely:

This was practised in Viena Karelia. It often uses allireration and repetition, (trochaic tetrameter) just like Kalevala. This was practised only by women. The songs were epic in nature and they dealt about lives of men. The origin and age of this practice is unknown. It is not known whether it is loaned from Saami people or whether it is ancient Baltic Finnish tradition.

Aila
2011-08-17, 12:59
How would you shortly describe the differences between the horizontal and vertical world views?

To put it in short (?)


Well, the horizontal worldview could be characterized as our ordinary worldview. The middle world. So the view is very dual. This and that. Focus is on form reality. Linear time.

The vertical worldview belongs to the more (so called) primitive hunting cultures and their spirituality and cosmology as it is like __- still living within a womb of creation.
So it is very "collective", like collective consciousness, an all-inclusive view.
Therefore ___ to be a part of Nature one needs to have a concept, a notion, an awareness of Totality.


To be apart from Nature one needs to emphasize the dualistic form-reality barrier, the gap between subject and object, the perceiver and the perceived, whereas in the vertical worldview that gap spatially represents a break in plane that transcends duality and as such is part of the "formation" of the pillar.
So ____ the sense of space and spatial senses are more emphasized in the vertical.

A centre and a circle
The circle represents Totality. The centre represents that breakthrough in plane that transcends not only dualities (of this and that) but also unites, unifies polarities of absolute-relative, time-timelessness, above-below etc.etc.

In the horizontal, linear view we are born and live in the world in a temporal sense and enter eternity after we die.
Not so in the vertical, because the eternal essence or dimension or presence is with us very much in the now, we are a part of it. We are part of the eternal essence of spirit, everything is. So in this sense everything (in the middle world) is perceived in an egalitarian manner, not hierarchical.

One does not disregard the horizontal however in order to enter into the vertical.
Both views (or reference points to one's being) are incorporated.

So once one knows (is shown) how to transcend duality using this break in plane, then the polarities of absolute-relative, eternal-temporal, spirit-matter (should I say), meet in a reflection or are like two sides of the same coin. There is that interdependency.
And because of that breakthrough in plane, awareness shifts into the "upper or lower worlds" are made possible.
It has been said that everything is energy. So one way of describing the upper-lower-middle worlds could be, to say, that the energy is different in each realm, each has it's unique vibration. So a sensitivity to different kind of energies gets amplified and a sort of depth perception into these energies develops.


That is just a little bit about it, my subjective account, these are not the words by which I was taught. Instead, I learned by awareness shifts between the horizontal and the vertical orientations.


Not sure about the previous quote about Uralic cultures having been so horizontal.
Horizontal is more an agriculturalist view, which almost everybody got assimilated into.

And of course the vertical, the horizontal, the central sun, the central mountain, the world pillar held in place with a sky nail etc. are not beliefs as such, but rather, quite apt mythological descriptions of something which is beyond the scope of the dual-mind to grasp and understand, because they can't really be explained by words. The view is best transmitted by examples and shown in practice.

To get more comprehensive idea of this, "The Sacred and The Profane" by Mircea Eliade is quite a good book on the subject.

Aila
2011-08-18, 03:02
Skadesi,
This quote makes a clear distinction between the Uralic horizontal worldview and Saami vertical conception.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~sugl_smi/senc/en/esittely.htm

For example, the horizontal world view characteristic of the Uralic cultures was clearly secondary for the Saami, while a vertical conception (the upper, middle and nether worlds) was in turn markedly emphasized.

What do Saami traditionally call or how do they describe their worldview as, if it cannot be characterized as being horizontal?

1) Vertical?
Emphasizing the shamanic aspect of the culture i.e. the perception of the 3 worlds and the need to enter the vertical in order to ascend or descent on that vertical 3 world axis?
(vertical axis picture 1)

2) Or Round?
Emphasizing the aspect, that wherever you are or "land" i.e. have descended or ascended to, on that vertical axis, the round worldview or the basic set up of the centre and the circle stays the same or basically functions the same way on all the levels of the vertical?
(basic set up picture 2)

3) Or would you call it a round worldview with a vertical conception of the 3 worlds?

4) Or would you call it a perspective from a 5th point (the inner centre) where the horizontal and the vertical cross to give you your subjective view of reality (i.e. where "you are at" on the vertical)?
(basic set up picture 2)

Or neither of the above?
If not, then what would you call the Saami worldview as such?

Can you relate to any of the above?
Or do we perceive (what I would in fullness call a round worldview with a vertical pillar, plus the 5th point) very differently?

What I have tried to express in these posts, can you discern a clear cultural boundary or difference here or does this sound like a gray area to you?


Or are you assimilated i.e. a subscriber of the horizontal?
Or do you need to juggle both views?

Aila
2011-08-19, 04:33
Now that I started it is a bit difficult to stop thinking of ways by which to describe something that is so utterly, utterly simple, yet so difficult to describe, because it doesn’t belong to the “horizontal worldview” and the linear thought.
Leaving people probably thinking, that not only did she come from the back of the beyond woods, she has gone there mentally as well.


If one uses the "Central Sun" as the mythological symbol for the centre, then to me it is easiest to use the imagery of kota and basically see it as a triangle. This emphasizes the depth symmetry of the described.
To get a vague idea:
http://www.falloutsoftware.com/tutorials/gl/gl5.htm

Lets take a look at this triangle and I will demonstrate some more logic behind objects and object movement in 3D space.
What makes this triangle different is that it has a center. This is of course, an imaginary center but you need to know where it is in your head when you construct an object. You see, when you build 3D objects you have to always make sure you build them around the logical center which is located at X=0, Y=0, Z=0 in the object's LOCAL coordinate system. If you don't follow this simple rule, your object will not rotate evenly, since all objects rotate around their local center.
(attached picture)

One could say that one point of the triangle represents totality, other the energy of that totality and the third relativity-in-space aspect of that totality. (Totality being all of it's parts in the manifested world).
Even though the Central Sun shines from above (world), in effect it "shines" through the centre that is everywhere (as is the Pillar).



If one wants to emphasize the energy aspect of that worldview, then the "womb of the creation" is a very apt description and the use of drum, which is like the heartbeat (centre) of that womb. Or like the thunder.
So of course in the hunter-gatherer world people used the symbolism derived from Nature.


From the link about joik:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/diehtu/giella/music/yoiksunna.htm

A yoik is not merely a description; it attempts to capture its subject in its entirety: it's like a holographic, multi-dimensional living image, a replica, not just a flat photograph or simple visual memory. It is not about something, it is that something. It does not begin and it does not end. A yoik does not need to have words – its narrative is in its power, it can tell a life story in song. The singer can tell the story through words, melody, rhythm, expressions or gestures.

From the perspective of the centre of that totality, we are, or the elements of the manifested world are only like echoes of that eternal aspect of totality, mere holographs "sung" into existence or into form-reality.


So.
That is another way of making an attempt to describe the difference between the "horizontal" and the "other" worldview.
From the perspective of the "other" worldview, the horizontal is like "the land of forgetfulness", people like "forgot" that there can be or are more reference points and/or dimensions to reality perception.

Tuohikirje
2011-08-19, 13:20
Thank you, Aila. That was very good. Easier to reflect to your own world based on your experience.

Aila
2011-08-22, 06:59
Now, how to describe the horizontal?
Instead of continuing with my "unintelligent, naive native babble" here, - which probably sounds utterly and totally meaningless _______.
A book that a friend of mine was reading some years ago came to mind.

At the time I only glanced through the book and found nothing new in it really, and because this friend, nice as he is, he very much comes from the "horizontal and the progressive view", - where everything under the sun is a mental concept one needs to imitate in order to "achieve" some kind of an ideal self-image and/or the conceptual credentials that one needs to possess like "tickets on one's self" in order to achieve that perfected persona (in other words to become something that one is not), I don't think that he was any wiser after reading this book, so I disregarded it as useless.
However, it does describe the "horizontal' quite well.
Found this book as a free download:
http://www.ebook3000.com/Ken-Wilber---No-Boundary--Eastern-and-Western-Approaches-to-Personal-Growth_84604.html

Have only read the first 3 chapters, and so far I more or less agree with it.


Once again, I am not too sure about the proto-Uralic worldview as having been so 2-dimensional and "horizontal" and progressive.
Take the word maailma (the world) for example. (Is that a Uralic word (?), and/or does it describe the Uralic view?)
If you do read through the first 3 chapters of the book, how would you describe the word maailma?
As pointing to the dual boundary between earth and space ( form & non-form) or is it a word pointing out the mutual interdependence?

Since I haven't as yet read the rest of the book, I don't know as yet if I will agree with the rest of it or not.
He thus far has mentioned what he calls as "the transpersonal bands".
Quite a few Saami and Karelians experience those. But when the underlying World Pillar or the Central Sun is not applied, experiences of those are involuntary and can occur on any "level", so the underlying dynamic out of which those "transpersonal" experiences emerge is not comprehended imo.


Maybe at the best what this book can do, is to create some new questions about one’s own views, which one thus far has taken for granted.

Aila
2011-10-18, 05:36
Meant to add just one more post to the above, but then time lapsed and I forgot.
Sorry to carry on about this________ like endlessly.


From the e-book link I gave earlier (first chapter "Who am I"), a quote:


Something very simple happens when you answer the question, "Who are you?"
When you are describing or explaining or even just inwardly feeling your "self," what you are actually doing, whether you know it or not, is drawing a mental line or boundary across the whole field of your experience, and everything on the inside of that boundary you are feeling or calling your "self," while everything outside that boundary you feel to be "not-self."
Your self-identity, in other words, depends entirely upon where you draw that boundary line.

You are a human and not a chair, and you know that because you consciously or unconsciously draw a boundary line between humans and chairs, and are able to recognize your identity with the former. You may be a very tall human instead of a short one, and so you draw a mental line between tallness and shortness, and thus identify yourself as "tall."

You come to feel that "I am this and not that" by drawing a boundary line between "this" and "that" and then recognizing your identity with "this" and your non-identity with "that."
So when you say "my self," you draw a boundary line between what is you and what is not you.
When you answer the question, "Who are you?," you simply describe what’s on the inside of that line.



Now imagining the perceived worldview, when the boundary line of one's BEING; - drawn between this and that, i.e. what is you and not-you include your ego only:

e·go·cen·tric
1. Holding the view that the ego is the centre, object, and norm of all experience.
2.a. Confined in attitude or interest to one's own needs or affairs.
b. Caring only about oneself; selfish.
3. Philosophy
a. Viewed or perceived from one's own mind as a centre.
b. Taking one's own self as the starting point in a philosophical system.

ego·centric n.
ego·centric·al·ly adv.
ego·cen·trici·ty (-trs-t), ego·centrism n.
1. regarding everything only in relation to oneself; self-centred; selfish
2. (Philosophy) Philosophy pertaining to a theory in which everything is considered in relation to the self, an egocentric universe.

Egocentricity is very 2 dimensional and horizontal. (People may call this as "individual freedom").
The only suggestion here towards vertical is that "I am taller/whiter (whatever) than that which is not me" therefore I must be better, above others because "I" rules.
Ego-centeredness also creates such a powerful mind-screen that everything classified as not-me becomes a mere mental object, a concept. Therefore everything perceived, in effect, is a projection. Then it is also easy to start justifying the exploitation of "others" or the land for that matter.


In summary, the centre in ego-cenrism is the ego i.e. "in which everything is considered in relation to the self, an egocentric universe".

But where is the centre if you include the environment (Land and All Accommodating Space) into the size of "you"?
Does "the centre" shift?
If it does, where is that centre now; (everything is in relation to) ??? -?



Examples from another indigenous culture, (which in practice, I have found to be somewhat similar) of where the boundary-line of one's BEING (i.e. the answer to the question "Who Am I”) are extended to include one's environment, one's country:

This song (which I posted on another thread):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qok6YM3E1z8

And this, describing “the size of you":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zAh3irMYo

Also noting how the world (maa-ilma) i.e. land-space is described.
First he describes the Land, but then when he tries to describe the actual experience, he switches onto the All Accommodating Space.
In experience the Land and All Accommodating Space becomes an indivisible unity, in effect non-dual, (i.e. one discerns the differences between land and space, yet at the same time both "form" an indivisible (i.e. single) perception of wholeness).

I do know that I got my horizontal worldview from my Swedish/Finnish grandfather as he saw/knew no other, but whether the indivisibility of land/space (maa/ilma) and it's centre (of my grandmother's view) originally came from Uralic or Saami (hunting culture, thus being inclusive of environment) or the mixture of both Saami and Uralic? I do not know.


In all of this, I think that it is still important to be aware of the boundary-making process itself, in order to make aware personal choices and not just blindly follow one model or the other.
One also does not need to go back living the hunting culture in order to expand one’s boundaries of perception.

Besides, what are we doing to the Environment in our competitiveness to become more "progressive”?
Have we become masters of our environment or mere slaves to the machinery of that progression?


That was my "Karelian joik" I suppose.
Hope it made some sense.

Motörhead Remember Me
2011-10-18, 18:40
I would think the music here is mostly quite "modern" adaptions of music based on a tradition, sung by higly trained singers.

---------- Post added 2011-10-18 at 17:42 ----------

Yes, this is modern folkmusic.
http://www.kansanmusiikki.fi/esiintyjat/musiikki/person/102/

Aila
2016-02-14, 00:21
Sorry about all my rants – but perhaps it is time to reopen this thread and reconsider.


Is that really counted as yoik? It sounds more like Evenk song than yoik to me! (Not that I say that there's any connection at all, of course, just the way it sounds). Impressive voices in any case.

I wonder how traditional it is, and how much of it which is their own creation - perhaps a little inspired by foreign influences?

What does she say here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZosDWMyKo&NR=1

Thank you JaM for this post.
She is describing a Viena Karelian way of yoiking. The way to "move sound".

Aila
2016-02-14, 01:36
She is describing a Viena Karelian way of yoiking. The way to "move sound".

Then - a repeat from another thread - a collaboration with Buryat traditional style singing in juxtaposition with Saami joik with a fantastic Norwegian band & arrangement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpNLq4jXUdM

Please discern the differences and/or similarities of Viena and Buryat styles.
(How "sound is moved" by those "he-he" or "ho-ho" syllables).

Aila
2016-02-14, 22:50
Back to the roots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a_UYvEM4Fc

Aila
2016-02-17, 22:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p5hxK6N8Xs

“joijutus”, “hehetys”, “luikahus”
http://skskirjat.pikakirjakauppa.fi/tuote/kallberg_maari/kelkettelyeanija_eli_vienankarjalaisia_joikuja_vie na_karelian/6420614440025

The most striking feature of Karelian yoiks is the refrain which was also onomatopoetically called the 'hehetys' or 'luikahus' part, i.e. the verse part in which the singer utters meaningless syllables and switches her register with a "jolt" portraying her skills in voice control.
Because of their improvisatory nature, yoiks are usually sung alone.


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=NwCDdSmFJPEC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=viena+karelia+central+asia&source=bl&ots=kDv32Zmzwm&sig=5WIrtGM8zSXZ_72IfEznwCpAjOw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOsKKX3P_KAhWGHJQKHTVtBwgQ6AEINTAE#v=on epage&q=viena%20karelia%20central%20asia&f=false


Central Asian influences might have come to northern Karelia — ancient Bjarmia — by way of the Viena River and Perm.

No shit ;)