"What the hell happened during European prehistory?"

[Humanist]

Is the question posed by Dienekes, in a summary of the findings from a new paper on Neolithic Hungarian mtDNA.

Entry:Unexpected ancient mtDNA from Neolithic Hungary (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/unexpected-ancient-mtdna-from-neolithic.html)

HVS-I polymorphism screening of ancient human mitochondrial DNA provides evidence for N9a discontinuity and East Asian haplogroups in the Neolithic Hungary

Zsuzsanna Guba et al.


Analysis of mitochondrial mutations in the HVS-I region is an effective method for ancient human populational studies. Discontinuous haplotype data between the first farmers and contemporary Europeans has been described before. Our contribution is based on a survey initiated on the Neolithic skeletons from Hungarian archaeological sites in the Alföld. This Lowland, the Hungarian Plain, is well excavated as an important region for spread of Neolithic culture from Near East and Balkans toward Central and Western Europe, started circa 8000 years ago. HVS-I sequences from nt15977 to nt16430 of 11 such specimens with sufficient mitochondrial DNA preservation among an extended Neolithic collection were analysed for polymorphisms, identifying 23 different ones. After assigning all single-nucleotide polymorphisms, a novel, N9a, N1a, C5, D1/G1a, M/R24 haplogroups were determined. On mitochondrial control mutations at nt16257 and nt16261, polymorphic PCRs were carried out to assess their distribution in remains. Neolithic data set was compared with contemporary Vác samples and references, resulting in higher frequency of N9a in Alföld as a remarkable genetic discontinuity. Our investigation is the first to study mutations form Neolithic of Hungary, resulting in an outcome of Far Eastern haplogroups in the Carpathian Basin. It is worth further investigation as a non-descendant theory, instead of a continuous population history, supporting genetic gaps between ancient and recent human populations.

Dienekes:"When faced with data such as this, one can only say: what the hell happened during European prehistory?"

[Ashina]

Wow! This is interesting. :D

[evon]

its very interesting and pokes holes in our current theories on migration to central europe mostly during the Turkic/Mongol migration periods..it might fit well with Q in Norway, so i am hoping they will do more research on this...

i am interested to learn about the various subgroups that will be identified here..

this one is also worth noting:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/east-eurasian-mtdna-in-ukrainian.html


hoping they will be added here soon:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

[Nordmann]

Is there Q mtDNA in Norway ?

[evon]

^ YDNA Q...

it might also explain my families high matches with exotic mtDNA lines such as R, N and G...

added YDNA Q map from europedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Q

[Lemminkäinen]

its very interesting and pokes holes in our current theories on migration to central europe mostly during the Turkic/Mongol migration periods..it might fit well with Q in Norway, so i am hoping they will do more research on this...

i am interested to learn about the various subgroups that will be identified here..

l[/url]


I wonder how mtDna H reached every corner in Europe.

[Humanist]

Not a direct reply to the mtDNA H question, but, there is an apparent correlation between the region in the Near East and Caucasus with the highest frequencies/hap diversities of some major European paternal lines, and mtDNA H frequency in the Near East and Caucasus (not including N Africa).

Adding Assyrian frequencies (N=54) to the frequencies reported in the recently published paper, "High-throughput sequencing of complete human mtDNA genomes from the Caucasus and West Asia (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n9/full/ejhg201162a.html)". Armenian frequencies from the study were combined with the 132 samples (as of 18-4-11) reported at the Armenian DNA Project "results" page. Figure 1 from the study (map, w/ Assyria added) is attached.


HG ASY ARM GEO AZB IRN TRK
A 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 7%
C 0% 0% 0% 3% 0% 0%
D 0% 0% 0% 3% 0% 7%
F 0% 1% 0% 7% 0% 3%
H 25% 25% 18% 7% 23% 14%
HV 15% 13% 7% 7% 7% 24%
I 2% 3% 0% 0% 10% 3%
J 18% 14% 4% 3% 13% 3%
K 5% 5% 7% 7% 0% 3%
M 0% 0% 0% 7% 13% 0%
N 2% 4% 7% 0% 3% 0%
R 0% 2% 11% 3% 7% 7%
T 7% 8% 11% 20% 7% 3%
U 23% 17% 29% 27% 13% 24%
X 4% 5% 7% 7% 0% 0%
Z 0% 0% 0% 0% 3% 0%

Neighbor joining tree attached as well.

[Wojewoda]

Dienekes:"When faced with data such as this, one can only say: what the hell happened during European prehistory?"

If we assume that the source of the European pottery lies not in the Middle-East but in the Far-East (See Jean M.'s "Pottry, From the East") (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/pottery.shtml#East):



The first pottery was made in the Far East, thousands of years before farming. The earliest sherds so far discovered are from the Yuchanyan Cave in southern China, radiocarbon-dated as c. 18,000 years old.2E. Boaretto et al., Radiocarbon dating of charcoal and bone collagen associated with early pottery at Yuchanyan Cave, Hunan Province, China, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, vol. 106 no. 24 (16 June 2009), pp. 9595-9600. The fragments from the cave are shown here pieced together to form a rounded-based cauldron, ideal for heating foods within an open fire. The base could be pressed into the soil and ash to keep it steady. The heat would be evenly distributed through the pot, helping to prevent cracks and breakages. The earliest pottery was mainly thick, undecorated, V-shaped and completely utilitarian. The craft entered Japan with the Jōmon people, ancestors of the Ainu. Before the startling discovery in Yuchanyan Cave, early Jōmon pottery dates were the earliest anywhere. By around 15,000 years ago ceramics had also appeared in the Russian Far East.3Y.V. Kuzmin, Chronology of the earliest pottery in East Asia: progress and pitfalls, Antiquity, vol. 80, no. 308 (June 2006), pp. 362-371.

The idea was carried westwards across Siberia by hunter-gatherers. Around Lake Baikal in Siberia the favoured form of pot combined the pointed-base shape with an everted rim. The pots were mainly built up from clay coils, pinched together, and often left undecorated, though they could be net-impressed or cord-impressed. Perhaps the idea of this type of decoration arose from the use of net or cord to hang freshly-made pots to dry before firing. This type of pottery reached the Samara region in the middle Volga River valley by 7,000 BC. It was the first pottery in Europe. From there pottery of the same type had spread to the Baltic and Scandinavia by about 5,500 BC, before any sign of contact with farming.4P. Jordan, Understanding the spread of innovations in prehistoric social networks: new insights into the origins and dispersal of early pottery in Northern Eurasia, in Willy Østreng (ed.), Transference; Interdisciplinary Communications 2008/2009, Centre for Advanced Study, Oslo (Internet publication January 2010); H.G. McKenzie, Review of early hunter-gatherer pottery in Eastern Siberia, in P. Jordan and M. Zvelebil (eds.), Ceramics Before Farming: The dispersal of pottery among prehistoric Eurasian hunter-gatherers (2009), pp.166-207; D.W. Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language (2007), p.149 and fig. 8.4.




The earliest pottery vessels found include those excavated from the Yuchanyan Cave in southern China, dated from 16,000 BCE,[29] and those found in the Amur River basin in the Russian Far East, dated from 14,000 BCE.[30][31]


... then we can speculate that there was some kind of movement of people from Asia to Europe related to the spread of pottery making technology.

[Polako]

This is getting interesting.

What if Europeans have much greater levels of East Asian admixture, but this is very old (Neolithic) and evened out in our genomes, making it seem as if it's European in various admixture tests?

[evon]

This is getting interesting.

What if Europeans have much greater levels of East Asian admixture, but this is very old (Neolithic) and evened out in our genomes, making it seem as if it's European in various admixture tests?

do you think that could explain segments such as mine? i guess that also implies a great deal of inbreeding though....

[Hweinlant]

What if Europeans have much greater levels of East Asian admixture, but this is very old (Neolithic) and evened out in our genomes, making it seem as if it's European in various admixture tests?

I think so. It's same with the African admix aswell. Various studies over the years have shown "mystery Native American" at Europeans, at the same time fex. 23andme shows ridiculous levels of European ancestry to some native African people.

I dont know if that ancestry should be called East Asian tho', as modern East Asian genepool is quite obviously product of population expansion caused by the neolithic rice farming techniques. Rice farming requires pretty specific conditions , I cant see how the neolithic proto-East Asians could have spread to Europe.

[Polako]

do you think that could explain segments such as mine? i guess that also implies a great deal of inbreeding though....

It could, and you wouldn't have to be inbred to score a small segment like that, because the genome is huge and there are two pairs of chromosomes. It might just be a total fluke, with a bunch of ancient fragments coming together.

By the way, one of the lineages is typical of Southeast Asians, not just East Asians.

[Humanist]

Is the question posed by Dienekes, in a summary of the findings from a new paper on Neolithic Hungarian mtDNA.

Entry:Unexpected ancient mtDNA from Neolithic Hungary (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/unexpected-ancient-mtdna-from-neolithic.html)

HVS-I polymorphism screening of ancient human mitochondrial DNA provides evidence for N9a discontinuity and East Asian haplogroups in the Neolithic Hungary

Zsuzsanna Guba et al.

Dienekes:"When faced with data such as this, one can only say: what the hell happened during European prehistory?"

MDS of the mtDNA frequencies reported in Al-Zahery et al., with Armenian (FTDNA) and Assyrian (FTDNA + 23andMe) frequencies added. Hungarians are between Anatolian Turks and Tajikistanis


N= COD A B C D F G H HV J K L0 L1 L2 L3 M M1 N N1 N2 R0 T U2 U3 U4 U5 U6 U7 W X Others(a)
145 IRM 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.12 0.04 0.15 0.06 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.06 0.00 0.01 0.08 0.00 0.08 0.08 0.00 0.06 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.05 0.05 0.01 0.06
176 IRQ 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.19 0.11 0.12 0.05 0.01 0.01 0.03 0.04 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.03 0.13 0.01 0.04 0.03 0.01 0.01 0.03 0.01 0.02 0.10
99 Aus 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.46 0.03 0.10 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.01 0.00 0.10 0.01 0.01 0.04 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03
48 Aze 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.29 0.10 0.04 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.04 0.00 0.17 0.00 0.02 0.08 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.02
144 Bos 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.48 0.06 0.07 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.01 0.01 0.05 0.00 0.01 0.06 0.12 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03
141 Bul 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.38 0.06 0.07 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.01 0.01 0.10 0.01 0.04 0.04 0.09 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.01 0.03
213 Cau 0.02 0.02 0.06 0.15 0.03 0.04 0.12 0.04 0.05 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.00 0.03 0.02 0.02 0.01 0.10 0.02 0.02 0.04 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.03
202 Crt 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.43 0.04 0.05 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.14 0.00 0.08 0.00 0.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.06
83 Cze 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.41 0.10 0.08 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.01 0.00 0.13 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.12 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.00
238 Egy 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.06 0.07 0.05 0.03 0.02 0.04 0.14 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.05 0.00 0.16 0.10 0.00 0.04 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.02 0.09
412 Geo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.19 0.04 0.03 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.04 0.00 0.12 0.01 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.10 0.13
459 Ger 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.46 0.04 0.09 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.10 0.01 0.02 0.01 0.10 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03
48 Gre 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.42 0.04 0.08 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.10 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.10
360 Hun 0.01 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.29 0.04 0.11 0.14 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.03 0.07 0.02 0.00 0.03 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.02 0.05
1582 Ind 0.02 0.01 0.01 0.03 0.03 0.02 0.02 0.02 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.58 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.05 0.00 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.03 0.01 0.00 0.13
720 Irn 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.18 0.09 0.13 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.01 0.03 0.03 0.02 0.10 0.01 0.03 0.01 0.03 0.00 0.08 0.01 0.02 0.09
300 Ire 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.44 0.07 0.11 0.12 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.02 0.00 0.07 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00
582 C-Ita 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.39 0.10 0.05 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.01 0.02 0.12 0.02 0.02 0.01 0.05 0.01 0.02 0.01 0.03 0.03
228 N-Ita 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.38 0.07 0.10 0.10 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.01 0.15 0.00 0.03 0.02 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.02
147 S-Ita 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.42 0.07 0.10 0.08 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.05 0.00 0.01 0.10 0.01 0.02 0.01 0.05 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.02 0.03
48 Sar 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.46 0.02 0.06 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.08 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.19 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.13
102 Kur 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.24 0.09 0.07 0.12 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.07 0.00 0.05 0.02 0.03 0.00 0.05 0.00 0.07 0.02 0.01 0.11
56 Mar 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.32 0.02 0.05 0.07 0.00 0.09 0.11 0.05 0.00 0.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.05 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.04
94 Ber 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.24 0.05 0.12 0.00 0.04 0.06 0.04 0.30 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03
432 Pak 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.10 0.05 0.05 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03 0.30 0.00 0.01 0.02 0.00 0.03 0.04 0.09 0.00 0.06 0.01 0.00 0.04 0.02 0.00 0.09
553 Sau 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.08 0.18 0.21 0.04 0.01 0.01 0.03 0.04 0.02 0.03 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.01 0.02 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.03 0.10
1199 Sco 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.43 0.04 0.14 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.05 0.01 0.00 0.11 0.01 0.02 0.02 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.01
104 Slv 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.47 0.07 0.10 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.05 0.00 0.06 0.01 0.02 0.06 0.11 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00
198 Spa 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.52 0.00 0.11 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.03 0.00 0.07 0.03 0.01 0.01 0.07 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.07
44 Taj 0.02 0.00 0.18 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.30 0.05 0.05 0.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.07 0.00 0.05 0.05 0.00 0.00 0.05 0.02 0.07
64 Tun 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.22 0.03 0.05 0.02 0.02 0.11 0.16 0.20 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.05 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.02 0.08 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03
151 Tur 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.36 0.04 0.07 0.09 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.01 0.05 0.02 0.01 0.04 0.01 0.03 0.01 0.03 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.06 0.10
73 Tuk 0.03 0.04 0.08 0.12 0.01 0.00 0.18 0.03 0.08 0.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.03 0.12 0.04 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.05
249 Uae 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.10 0.07 0.12 0.04 0.05 0.02 0.05 0.09 0.09 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.06 0.03 0.08 0.02 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.03 0.01 0.10
185 Yem 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.05 0.03 0.19 0.04 0.09 0.02 0.05 0.16 0.03 0.01 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.13 0.08 0.00 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.06
59 Asy 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.29 0.15 0.12 0.03 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.08 0.02 0.05 0.02 0.03 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.03 0.08
167 Arm 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.26 0.11 0.13 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.01 0.00 0.09 0.01 0.07 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.02 0.03 0.04 0.10

Country/Population Total COD
Iraq (Marsh Arab) 145 IRM
Iraq 176 IRQ
Austria 99 Aus
Azerbaijan 48 Aze
Bosnia 144 Bos
Bulgaria 141 Bul
Caucasus 213 Cau
Crete 202 Crt
Czech Republic 83 Cze
Egypt 238 Egy
Georgia 412 Geo
Germany 459 Ger
Greece 48 Gre
Hungary 360 Hun
India 1582 Ind
Iran 720 Irn
Ireland 300 Ire
Italy (Centre) 582 C-Ita
Italy (North) 228 N-Ita
Italy (South) 147 S-Ita
Italy (Sardinia) 48 Sar
Kurds 102 Kur
Morocco 56 Mar
Morocco (Berber) 94 Ber
Pakistan 432 Pak
Saudi Arabia 553 Sau
Scotland 1199 Sco
Slovenia 104 Slv
Spain 198 Spa
Tajikistan 44 Taj
Tunisia 64 Tun
Turkey 151 Tur
Turkmenistan 73 Tuk
United Arab Emirates 249 Uae
Yemen 185 Yem
Assyrian 59 Asy
Armenian 167 Arm

[JaM]

It was always said that the Y-carrying males were the invaders, but now it seems like Europe were invaded by some Amazon women, and the Y may be more native after all.
I'm impressed by the amount of moving around those ancient people did. If they were agricultural people, then why did they move like that? Normally sedentary people have lost the ability to traverse big distances since they rely on the land, and long term planning of crops etc.
Quite mysterious.

Maybe there was some natural disaster?

[Boots]

good question jam..

[Polako]

Maybe there was some natural disaster?

It seems there was a steep population growth in East Asia staring 13KYBP, which pushed groups of East Asians in different directions, as far as Europe.

Major population expansion in mtDNA of East Asians (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/10/major-population-expansion-in-mtdna-of.html)

But soon after that, Europeans pushed east, all the way to East Asia.

European admixture in ancient East Asians (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-admixture-in-ancient-east-asia.html)

[JaM]

It seems there was a steep population growth in East Asia staring 13KYBP, which pushed groups of East Asians in different directions, as far as Europe.

Major population expansion in mtDNA of East Asians (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/10/major-population-expansion-in-mtdna-of.html)

But soon after that, Europeans pushed east, all the way to East Asia.

European admixture in ancient East Asians (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-admixture-in-ancient-east-asia.html)

Strange. Usually major population growths are connected with agriculture. Normally hunter hunter-gatherers populations don't grow suddenly like that. Maybe they started herding and crop growing very early?

[Boots]

problem wasn't 13y ago.
that date ... comes from dummies dating cosmic events by soils levels and burnt radioactive isotopes.. that they do not know the laws of such things! they have just begun to ask questions much less figure out the answers.
one event was just 2800 years ago and the other was 3200 years ago and all continents have at least two sterile soil levels with occupation levels above and below the sterile levels and one level is very burnt in the Americas and parts of africa and most of europe. but their datings of "13y" is what happens when goof balls try to measure soils and put time on soil levels of cosmic impact events.
and hell this has nothing to do with a flood yet.. and this is just two events in recent recorded time that they have never had the balls to explained.. instead they preferred tectonic plate theories in order to create their millions and millions of of years .
when in fact tectonic plates are not the cause of movement but the results of it. but will they give back their billions of years when they find that the atlantic was formed in a day ?
of course not ....... we are stuck with that lie forever now aren't we?

[Polako]

Strange. Usually major population growths are connected with agriculture. Normally hunter hunter-gatherers populations don't grow suddenly like that. Maybe they started herding and crop growing very early?

Perhaps climatic changes led to favorable foraging conditions, which resulted in population growth?

But then, there were too many people to sustain with foraging methods, so they had to get creative and developed agriculture as a result?

Interesting question, what if it's the East Asians who invented agriculture and spread it to West Eurasia, including to Europe? That's definitely the case with pottery, so it might also be true for agriculture.

[JaM]

Perhaps climatic changes led to favorable foraging conditions, which resulted in population growth?

But then, there were too many people to sustain with foraging methods, so they had to get creative and developed agriculture as a result?

Interesting question, what if it's the East Asians who invented agriculture and spread it to West Eurasia, including to Europe? That's definitely the case with pottery, so it might also be true for agriculture.

Maybe it's a bit far fetched to conclude this, but it does seem like it could be the case.

[Tyrannical]

It seems there was a steep population growth in East Asia staring 13KYBP, which pushed groups of East Asians in different directions, as far as Europe.

Major population expansion in mtDNA of East Asians (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/10/major-population-expansion-in-mtdna-of.html)

But soon after that, Europeans pushed east, all the way to East Asia.

European admixture in ancient East Asians (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-admixture-in-ancient-east-asia.html)

There certainly could be a fair amount of catastrophism going on in circa 13KYBP with glacial melting. Glacier may melt at a fairly steady state, but there can be sudden rushes of melt-water as ice dams break. The rebounding crust relived from glacial weight may also cause earth quakes, and with already rising sea levels a tsunami could cause significant and potentially permanent flooding of coastal areas.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png

[Polako]

^ OK, that's interesting. That could definitely explain efforts to move away from the disaster zones.

[JaM]

The flood?

[Boots]

one event the sea dropped by hundreds of feet.
maybe iit rose one of the events.. Gee I guess maybe..
but the last time it definitely drop to where it is now...
if they can get it wrong they sure do .

[evon]

i think following herds of animals would also be a good reason for huge population movement, such as mammoth flocks moving north west..

[Polako]

i think following herds of animals would also be a good reason for huge population movement, such as mammoth flocks moving north west..

When did mammoth go extinct?

[evon]

When did mammoth go extinct?

about 4,500 years ago..

[annihilus]

^Didn't know that. I always thought homo sapiens sapiens and mammoths never met.

[evon]

everyhting seems to fit with rapid climate change and animal extinction, however it is hard to determine what if we dont know animal movement and population movement and settlements from this period..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene is from about 10 000, though it does fit quite well overall..

here is some info on human settlements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_inhabited_cities

[takoja]

I thought it was the drowning of Sundaland that caused the population expansion from South East Asia to northwards some 13000 years ago and that modern East Asians would be mainly descendant from these Sundaland refugees.

[Boots]

^Didn't know that. I always thought homo sapiens sapiens and mammoths never met.

NO ,

all those sun loving glacier surfing mammoths who for some reason committed suicide off the coast of Sweden and Norway.. millions of tons of mammoth bones destroyed every year!
and not one real scientist ever asked WHY and or really answered it ..!!!
so why would those glacier surfing Mammoths all commit suicide when they had such a hell of a time surfing icebergs?
but for some strange reason they ended it all at the same place and the same time..

http://survive2012.com/index.php/pole-shift-evidence.html
there is a site for lots of clues to start your discovery into all about paradigm shifts and bald faced lies ... and that damnable 4 %..

[Polako]

^ Am I the only one who's confused here?

[Gungnir]

I thought that it was believed that mammoths were actually hunted to extinction?

[evon]

I thought that it was believed that mammoths were actually hunted to extinction?

that is one of the working hypothesis, but we really dont know, what is cool is that they are currently trying to clone mammoths using DNA preserved under ice:

http://singularityhub.com/2011/01/19/japanese-scientist-wants-to-clone-a-woolly-mammoth-in-the-next-five-years/

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 17:24 ----------


^ Am I the only one who's confused here?

its the female version of synop..

[annihilus]

that is one of the working hypothesis, but we really dont know, what is cool is that they are currently trying to clone mammoths using DNA preserved under ice:

http://singularityhub.com/2011/01/19/japanese-scientist-wants-to-clone-a-woolly-mammoth-in-the-next-five-years/

---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 17:24 ----------



its the female version of synop..

Cool, can we clone neanderthals too?:thumbsup:

[Boots]

I thought that it was believed that mammoths were actually hunted to extinction? oh honey they tried every kind of lie including disease.. what was so goofy about that is that there is no such disease or ever will be, one which effects all animals/ more then 50 types of animals disappeared at one moment in north american history.. nothing like disease effects all kinds of animals at the same time.. besides we had mammoths here when columbus got here. as obviously some were hid with humans in the caves as well.
they have tired everything but the truth.... they sure don't want to lose those millions of years which all started with that tectonic plate theory.

[Gungnir]

^WTF are you smoking?

[Boots]

it is already done , sciences fantasy life is over .. the truth is out and .. you just haven"t figured it out yet.. but you will..:thumbsup: ROTF

[Motörhead Remember Me]

^ Am I the only one who's confused here?

Is this the same woman?