Are Mordvinians of North Iranian stock? [Archive] - ForumBiodiversity.com

Tuohikirje

2011-10-04, 22:14

Mordvinians are Aryans who shifted to Finnic language (both Mordva and Erzya are old Iranic words), so their genetic similarity to Russians is not surprising.

:p

Er'za's and Mokshas are recent ethnonyms to these FU people.
So, if wogs, Khans and other Mongols have written something,
it is not the original name.

A wealth of details on the Erza has been preserved in al-Istakhri’s 10th century account, according to which the Rus’ (ar-rus) can be divided into three groups: kujada, as-salavija and al-arsanija.The first name corresponds to Kiev, the second is the Slavic ethnonym or can be identified with the Slovens living around Novgorod, whilst the third is identical with the Erza ethnonym. Al-Istakhri recorded not only the name al-arsanija, but also describes the people themselves:accordingly, the al-arsanija are the most dangerous among the three groups of the ar-rus for they kill all strangers who set foot in their lands. They only leave their fields if they set off to trade, and then they sail down the rivers and barter their furs, but they do this without uttering a word, revealing nothing of their country or of themselves. Their king lives in the town of Arsa (Zahoder 1967, Vol. II, 101-102).

The Erza are later mentioned asardzhaniin Rashid ad-Din’s report from the 14th century (Sbornik… 1941, 96), and asrzjan by Jusuf, the Nogaj khan (Safargaliev 1964, 12). In Russian sources the ethnonym Erza only appears from the 18th century (Mokshin 1977, 47).

The ethnonym Moksha first appears at a rather late date, in the 13th century. Rubruck,the Franciscan monk who was dispatched to the Mongols, called them moxel (V, 5). This ethnonym, however, failed to make its way into European or Oriental reports and geographic works. It does occur in Rashi ad-Din’s above-quoted work, together with the Erza ethnonym,and it appears in the Russian sources from the 17th century (Mokshin 1977, 47).

*Source. László KlimaThe linguistic affinity of the Volgaic Finno-Ugrians and their ethnogenesis(early 4th millennium BC - late 1st millennium AD)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67135924/The-linguistic-affinity-of-the-Volgaic-Finno-Ugrians-and-their-ethnogenesis

aeon

2011-10-05, 08:04

You mean North Russians are Slavonified Iranics ?

I mean it is by now quite evident that Slavs and North Iranics were the same people in terms of genetics and anthropology.

---------- Post added 2011-10-05 at 07:07 ----------

Well, aeon is correct in his argument that both ethnonyms Erzya and Mordva do come from some Indo-Iranian (Aryan) source. Word Russia (and thus Russians) however comes from Finnic word Ruotsi!

No need to bring in the Finnic word Ruotsi, since what is now Russia was known by the name Rus or similar (meaning White or Light in all IE languages) millenia before the word Ruotsi (rowers) was taken by Finns from Swedes.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-05, 08:29

Plant manager of big Russian hairpiece manufacturer, Aleksei Kuznetsov says here that their hairpiece material, collected from the rural area around Russia, is genetically Fenno-Ugrian. After that he says that this Russian-Slavic hair material is in fact a big brand :)

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat.shtml/2011/10/1401106/venajalla-etsitaan-neuvostoaikaisia-hiuksia-syrjakylia-myoten

Hweinlant

2011-10-05, 08:54

I mean it is by now quite evident that Slavs and North Iranics were the same people in terms of genetics and anthropology.

But Slavs didnt get to North Russia until recently. There is archeological continuity at North Russia for very long time (which pre-dates arrival of Slavonic speakers with several millenias). This must mean that North Russians are Slavonified Iranians. Is it so ?

Infact proto-Uralics and pre-proto-Indo-Iranians lived in the same hood, which is pretty much exactly where Mordvinians still live. So genetic exchange between linguistic (Uralic) ancestors of Mordvinians and Aryans is more than likely. Slavs however dont even belong to same time frame. Slavs did originate at the western fringe of Indo-Iranian world, thousends of years later than the existance of Uralic-Aryan conglomerate of Volga.

If Russians have some Aryan genes it is through assimilated Finno-Ugrians.

No need to bring in the Finnic word Ruotsi, since what is now Russia was known by the name Rus or similar (meaning White or Light in all IE languages) millenia before the word Ruotsi (rowers) was taken by Finns from Swedes.

No it was not. I think you are referring to biblical "Prince of Rhos" which has nothing to do with Russia nor Russians.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-05, 09:12

No need to bring in the Finnic word Ruotsi, since what is now Russia was known by the name Rus or similar (meaning White or Light in all IE languages) millenia before the word Ruotsi (rowers) was taken by Finns from Swedes.

Are you talking about the Rus? Word derives from Vepsian word meaning red, referring to the Rus
wearing red clothes indicating prestige and wealth. Red color was rare and expensive at the time.
Finns did not borrow word Ruotsi from Swedes, it ment all Western people, who came by boats
in Eastern Finnic language/s.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-05, 09:20

But Slavs didnt get to North Russia until recently. There is archeological continuity at North Russia for very long time (which pre-dates arrival of Slavonic speakers with several millenias). This must mean that North Russians are Slavonified Iranians. Is it so ?

Infact proto-Uralics and pre-proto-Indo-Iranians lived in the same hood, which is pretty much exactly where Mordvinians still live. So genetic exchange between linguistic (Uralic) ancestors of Mordvinians and Aryans is more than likely. Slavs however dont even belong to same time frame. Slavs did originate at the western fringe of Indo-Iranian world, thousends of years later than the existance of Uralic-Aryan conglomerate of Volga.

If Russians have some Aryan genes it is through assimilated Finno-Ugrians.

No it was not. I think you are referring to biblical "Prince of Rhos" which has nothing to do with Russia nor Russians.
Hwein has really good points, however related to the last topic I think that the most plausible explanation for the term Rus is somehow related to Rani or Rujani i.e. "red" of the current Rugen, as there is a clear proof of a western slavic migration into Novgorodian lands in the iron age. This would also fit very well with the norwegian study related to vepsians and based on the same term "red".

Tuohikirje

2011-10-05, 09:23

Hwein has really good points, however related to the last topic I think that the most plausible explanation for the term Rus is somehow related to Rani or Rujani i.e. "red" of the current Rugen, as there is a clear proof of a western slavic migration into Novgorodian lands in the iron age. This would also fit very well with the norwegian study related to vepsians and based on the same term "red".

Well, we are on track. I had noticed this ra-ru ancient (IE origin) word, but had no more information about it in the context.

aeon

2011-10-05, 09:26

Word derives from Vepsian word meaning red

It is an IE loanword.

Finns did not borrow word Ruotsi from Swedes

OK, from Scandinavian Germanics, as if it changed anything.

---------- Post added 2011-10-05 at 08:29 ----------

Plant manager of big Russian hairpiece manufacturer, Aleksei Kuznetsov says here that their hairpiece material, collected from the rural area around Russia, is genetically Fenno-Ugrian. After that he says that this Russian-Slavic hair material is in fact a big brand :)

Unlike Finns whose authority on ethnic history is a hairpiece manufacturer, I am well aware that the only remaining people who may be called authentic Fenno-Ugrians in more than linguistic sense are Mansis and Khanties.

---------- Post added 2011-10-05 at 08:40 ----------

But Slavs didnt get to North Russia until recently. There is archeological continuity at North Russia for very long time (which pre-dates arrival of Slavonic speakers with several millenias). This must mean that North Russians are Slavonified Iranians. Is it so ?

No, we did not even talk about North Russia.

Infact proto-Uralics and pre-proto-Indo-Iranians lived in the same hood, which is pretty much exactly where Mordvinians still live. So genetic exchange between linguistic (Uralic) ancestors of Mordvinians and Aryans is more than likely. Slavs however dont even belong to same time frame. Slavs did originate at the western fringe of Indo-Iranian world, thousends of years later than the existance of Uralic-Aryan conglomerate of Volga.

No need to go as far back in history. Mordvins come from the culture of Ryazan-Oka burials (3-7th centuries AD), the last of the great North Iranic cultures.

If Russians have some Aryan genes it is through assimilated Finno-Ugrians.

Good joke, Uralic troll.

No it was not. I think you are referring to biblical "Prince of Rhos" which has nothing to do with Russia nor Russians.

No, I am referring to Rus-alani, Aorsi, Rosomoni, etc.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-05, 09:52

...No need to go as far back in history. Mordvins come from the culture of Ryazan-Oka burials (3-7th centuries AD), the last of the great North Iranic cultures.
This is interesting, are you referring to Dyakovo culture or something else? What, according to your understanding, was the reason for the mordvinians to change the language?

The aryan-iranic connection is apparently visible also in finnish of Finland, not only in mordvinic which BTW is the Volga finnish language most closely related to the Baltic finnic.

Hweinlant

2011-10-05, 09:52

No, we did not even talk about North Russia.

Yes we did. Have you actually read anything on this thread ? Me and Polako were discussing about huge genetic similarity between North Russians from Vologda and Mordvinians. Then you stormed in with your typical nonsense.

Are North Russians Slavonified Iranians ? Answer the question and stop dancing tripak around the question.

No need to go as far back in history. Mordvins come from the culture of Ryazan-Oka burials (3-7th centuries AD), the last of the great North Iranic cultures.

Linguistic ancestors of Mordvinians have lived around the region for millenias.

Good joke, Uralic troll.

Science is a bitch, aint it ?

No, I am referring to Rus-alani, Aorsi, Rosomoni, etc.

It is not Rus-alani but Roxolani and rest of your non-scientific panslavicism is of same grade bs.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-05, 09:54

aeon

2011-10-05, 10:13

This is interesting, are you referring to Dyakovo culture or something else?

No, I am referring to the culture of Ryazan-Oka burials, which is different from Dyakovo.

What, according to your understanding, was the reason for the mordvinians to change the language?

No idea. However, their language remains Iranic to a significant degree.

The aryan-iranic connection is apparently visible also in finnish of Finland, not only in mordvinic which BTW is the Volga finnish language most closely related to the Baltic finnic.

Yes, all Finnics have undergone a huge Iranic impact.

---------- Post added 2011-10-05 at 09:23 ----------

Yes we did. Have you actually read anything on this thread ? Me and Polako were discussing about huge genetic similarity between North Russians from Vologda and Mordvinians. Then you stormed in with your typical nonsense.
Are North Russians Slavonified Iranians ? Answer the question and stop dancing tripak around the question.

I do not know what tripak is. North Russians are Slavs with a Finnic admixture. Mordvins are North Iranics with a Finnic admixture. Slavs and North Iranics were genetically identical. So it comes as no surprise that North Russians are close to Mordvins.

Linguistic ancestors of Mordvinians have lived around the region for millenias.

Iranics have lived around the region for millenia.

Science is a bitch, aint it ?

To you, definitely.

It is not Rus-alani but Roxolani and rest of your non-scientific panslavicism is of same grade bs.

You play the retarded card so funnily.

Lat. Roxalani < Iranic Ruxs-alan- (White/Light Alans). Iranic Ruxs is the same word as Slavic Rus.

Ruotsi Rowers and Red-clad Vepsians are redundant.

Hweinlant

2011-10-05, 10:42

I do not know what tripak is.

See the pic for illustration. Aeon desperately dancing tripak around the question.

Slavs and North Iranics were genetically identical.

Where can we find living North Iranian (<- what the hell that even is ?!) to test this hypothesis ? Besides how is that even possible because proto-Slavs were farmers from Central Europe, who didnt even exists when the proto-Aryans existed ?

Or are you saying that original Slavs were infact group of Indo-Iranians who went through language change from Indo-Iranian -> Baltoslav ? This theory might have some credibility.

Btw; *Ugrá, from Proto-Aryan 'strong, mighty, noble'. Does this mean that Khanty are (Siberian) Aryan ?

So it comes as no surprise that North Russians are close to Mordvins.

It is great surprise to me, they are not close but nearly identical. This tells me a lot about those North Russians from Vologda.

Iranics have lived around the region for millenia.

Iranians dont exist at Europe anymore but Uralics do. Mordvinians are Uralic.

I dont bother commenting your impossible etymologies. There is enough scientific literature about the topic which anyone interested can read. Ruotsi-theory is linguistic standard while the Vepsian Reds is upcoming challenger. Roxosoksoris are just as bullshit now as they were 100 years ago when they were first debunked.

aeon

2011-10-05, 10:57

See the pic for illustration. Aeon desperately dancing tripak around the question.

It is the first time I hear of tripak, so it must be a dance of drunk Finnish tree-fellers.

Where can we find living North Iranian (<- what the hell that even is ?!) to test this hypothesis ?

Nowhere, but we have their remains, which have been studies by anthropologists and geneticists. And guess what, Russians and Poles are the closest.

Besides how is that even possible because proto-Slavs were farmers from Central Europe, who didnt even exists when the proto-Aryans existed ?

Slavs were from Eastern Europe, what their trade was is irrelevant, and they did not come out of thin air 1,500 years ago.

Or are you saying that original Slavs were infact group of Indo-Iranians who went through language change from Indo-Iranian -> Baltoslav ? This theory might have some credibility.

I am saying what I am saying, Slavs and North Iranics had the same genetics.

Btw; *Ugrá, from Proto-Aryan 'strong, mighty, noble'. Does this mean that Khanty are (Siberian) Aryan ?

No, it means that they like all Uralics underwent huge Iranian linguistic influence.

It is great surprise to me, they are not close but nearly identical. This tells me a lot about those North Russians from Vologda.

That tells me nothing new about Mordvins, since I have always known that they are North Iranics who assumed a Finnic language.

Iranians dont exist at Europe anymore but Uralics do. Mordvinians are Uralic.

Only linguistically. Genetically, only Mansis and Khanties are Uralic.

I dont bother commenting your impossible etymologies. There is enough scientific literature about the topic which anyone interested can read. Ruotsi-theory is linguistic standard while the Vepsian Reds is upcoming challenger. Roxosoksoris are just as bullshit now as they were 100 years ago when they were first debunked.

The fact is, what is now Russia was called Rus millenia before Ruotsi rowers and Vepsian Reds.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-05, 11:04

Only linguistically. Genetically, only Mansis and Khanties are Uralic.

What do you mean by Uralic. Tell who are Finnic. I have difficulties to follow your classifications. Is Uralic a synomym for FU-language speaking people?

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-05, 11:25

What do you mean by Uralic. Tell who are Finnic. I have difficulties to follow your classifications. Is Uralic a synomym for FU-language speaking people?

Everyone has difficulties following aeon's logic. He's been on an agenda since day one on these forums and to continue to be "succesful" on an agenda the logic must be difficult to follow and full of flips and dance moves.

Hweinlant

2011-10-05, 21:49

It is the first time I hear of tripak, so it must be a dance of drunk Finnish tree-fellers.

It is one of those Ukrainian folk dances you claim Russian. Infact it has become as Russian as dancing bears and nuclearwaste hidden under the neighbourhood playground :)

Nowhere, but we have their remains, which have been studies by anthropologists and geneticists. And guess what, Russians and Poles are the closest.

Ahaa! With North Iranian you are actually referring to Indo-Iranians (or possibly Tocharians) of South Siberia, not people who lived at Europe . Study you are referring is Keyser et al 2009 about South Siberian Kurgan burials and ancient dna. They indeed digged out few skeletons from South Siberia and tested their Y-dna. Most came out of R1a*, they also extracted the STR-haplotypes.

It's pretty obvious that the actual decendants of those R1a* STR-lineages are Turkic and Mongolic people of South Siberia. Since Turko-Mongols came en masse, from South Siberia to Russia it is no wonder that you have some of those STR-haplotypes.

Instead of aR1an we should be talking about TuR1an in Ruskie context. It could also be possible that similar STR's are just random chance (it's only 17 str markers and very poor snp coverage) . It's good that I have that study at hand and can attach this informative picture (see picture for location of modern people matching the STR-haplotype of ancient Siberian R1a*-dude). Empty geographical region between the Mongols and Europe is ofcource artefact created by the lack of samples from Central Asia back in 2009.

Slavs were from Eastern Europe, what their trade was is irrelevant, and they did not come out of thin air 1,500 years ago.

Their trade is extremely important as Indo-Iranians were horse-bound steppe people. They were no farmers, no sir, they were not. I think that theory of elite dominance of Balts over Iranian tribe (<- Future Slavs) is intriguing tho'.

I am saying what I am saying, Slavs and North Iranics had the same genetics.

Slavs year 300 AD were genetically identical to people living, what 2000 kilometers east of them, 2000 years earlier. Sure aeon, if it makes you happy :)

No, it means that they like all Uralics underwent huge Iranian linguistic influence.

You were just adamant that Mordvinians are North Iranians (<- SIC!) because root of their ethnonym (or Exonym some say) is Aryan. Now you deny your own logic what comes to Ugris ?

Only linguistically. Genetically, only Mansis and Khanties are Uralic.

They are extremely mixed 50/50 West/East Eurasians. They still manage to have relatively North Europoid looking speciments, those are the relics of their ancient Uralic ancestors.

The fact is, what is now Russia was called Rus millenia before Ruotsi rowers and Vepsian Reds.

I call shananigans.

evon

2011-10-05, 21:57

isnt this a genetic topic?

Hweinlant

2011-10-05, 21:59

isnt this a genetic topic?

You are right. Last two pages should be splitted to new topic: Are Russians North Iranians ?

Polako

2011-10-06, 04:02

Ahaa! With North Iranian you are actually referring to Indo-Iranians (or possibly Tocharians) of South Siberia, not people who lived at Europe . Study you are referring is Keyser et al 2009 about South Siberian Kurgan burials and ancient dna. They indeed digged out few skeletons from South Siberia and tested their Y-dna. Most came out of R1a*, they also extracted the STR-haplotypes.

It's pretty obvious that the actual decendants of those R1a* STR-lineages are Turkic and Mongolic people of South Siberia. Since Turko-Mongols came en masse, from South Siberia to Russia it is no wonder that you have some of those STR-haplotypes.

This isn't possible, because Turkic R1a1a-Z93 is very rare across Northern Europe, including in Russia.

Most importantly, none of the major Eastern European R1a1a branches are Z93+. So what this means is that R1a1a was established in Europe before the Turkic invasions.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-06, 08:13

...That tells me nothing new about Mordvins, since I have always known that they are North Iranics who assumed a Finnic language.

"Finnish "Orja", - slave, Estonian [gen.] "Orja", Udmurt "Var ", Komi "Ver ", Mokša "Uŕä ", Erzya "Uŕe" - slave, indicates some later conflicts with the Āryans - as do some archaeological sites ( note - all the various late Finnic "Āryan" terms lack archaic nominative "s" - like later Timber-Grave Iranian ). In contrast, Saami "Oar'je", designates a direction (south)."

http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm

Now, what explains these tensions in vocabulary if there was a clear mordvinian related aryan-iranian continuity?

Aryan-iranians, balts and uralic speakers were anyways apparently in very close contact in Volga-Kama region, at some point of and for a very long time.

Hweinlant

2011-10-06, 08:19

This isn't possible, because Turkic R1a1a-Z93 is very rare across Northern Europe, including in Russia.

We dont know if those South Siberian skeletons were Z93- and the STR's dont tell (especially not with only 17 markers).

Most importantly, none of the major Eastern European R1a1a branches are Z93+. So what this means is that R1a1a was established in Europe before the Turkic invasions.

That was not my point and ofcource you are right. My point was that aeon trying to proove "North Iranity" of Russians with those ancient Siberians is non-tenable as the STRs could have come with the Turkics aswell.

A) Founders at Volga
B) Fast expansion to east and west
B) Later Expansion from East -> West

So we could be looking scenario where the same STR-lineages exists natively both edges of the expansion zone in Europe and at Siberia, while the much later Siberian expansion to Europe could have contributed to the presence of STR-lineage at Russians.

Or the spreadmap could indicate that there just was not enough of samples from lot of places and thus creating completely wrong georaphical pattern for the STR-lineages.

Or it might be just random chance that STRs of only 17 markers resemble each other while there is no uniting SNP-haplogroup (downstream from R1a1) between the two.

aeon

2011-10-06, 08:27

It is one of those Ukrainian folk dances you claim Russian. Infact it has become as Russian as dancing bears and nuclearwaste hidden under the neighbourhood playground :)

The dance is called trepak.

Ahaa! With North Iranian you are actually referring to Indo-Iranians (or possibly Tocharians) of South Siberia, not people who lived at Europe . Study you are referring is Keyser et al 2009 about South Siberian Kurgan burials and ancient dna. They indeed digged out few skeletons from South Siberia and tested their Y-dna. Most came out of R1a*, they also extracted the STR-haplotypes.

It's pretty obvious that the actual decendants of those R1a* STR-lineages are Turkic and Mongolic people of South Siberia. Since Turko-Mongols came en masse, from South Siberia to Russia it is no wonder that you have some of those STR-haplotypes.

Instead of aR1an we should be talking about TuR1an in Ruskie context. It could also be possible that similar STR's are just random chance (it's only 17 str markers and very poor snp coverage) . It's good that I have that study at hand and can attach this informative picture (see picture for location of modern people matching the STR-haplotype of ancient Siberian R1a*-dude). Empty geographical region between the Mongols and Europe is ofcource artefact created by the lack of samples from Central Asia back in 2009.

Study I am referring to is this, my dear retarded Uralic troll:

Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations

Abstract The excavation of a frozen grave on the Kizil site (dated to be 2500 years old) in the Altai Republic (Central Asia) revealed a skeleton belonging to the Scytho-Siberian population. DNA was extracted from a bone sample and analyzed by autosomal STRs (short tandem repeats) and by sequencing the hypervariable region I (HV1) of the mitochondrial DNA. The resulting STR profile, mitochondrial haplotype, and haplogroup were compared with data from modern Eurasian and northern native American populations and were found only in European populations historically influenced by ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia.

The assignment method was performed from only the allelic frequencies of the seven STR loci considered in the consensus genotype. The probability of observing an individual with the Kizil skeleton STR profile was the highest in the two eastern European populations (Russia and Poland). Indeed, the likelihood that the Kizil skeleton STR profile occurred in these two populations was 10 times higher than in other European populations, 100 times higher than in eastern Asian populations, and about 100,000 times higher than in Indian populations.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200402/ai_n9373553

Their trade is extremely important as Indo-Iranians were horse-bound steppe people. They were no farmers, no sir, they were not. I think that theory of elite dominance of Balts over Iranian tribe (<- Future Slavs) is intriguing tho'.

Trade has nothing to do with anthropology.

Slavs year 300 AD were genetically identical to people living, what 2000 kilometers east of them, 2000 years earlier. Sure aeon, if it makes you happy :)

Yes, they were. Facts of science do make me happy and you unhappy.

You were just adamant that Mordvinians are North Iranians (<- SIC!) because root of their ethnonym (or Exonym some say) is Aryan. Now you deny your own logic what comes to Ugris ?

Mordvinians are North Iranics because they come from North Iranic cultures and have North Iranic genetics, their name is an additional argument.

And using your own logic, if Mordvinians are FU, then Vologda Russians are FU too, while Finns are not FU, because they sit in the genetic chart very far from Mordvinians. So you have to choose who is FU between Vologda Russians and Finns. Make the hard choice.

:lol:

They are extremely mixed 50/50 West/East Eurasians. They still manage to have relatively North Europoid looking speciments, those are the relics of their ancient Uralic ancestors.

Finno-Ugrians were extremely mixed 50/50 West/Easr Eurasian mestizos from day 1. Embrace your ancestry and stop being ashamed of it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 07:36 ----------

Neither I nor anybody else has claimed Russians are of North Iranian stock. So, unless/until the name of the thread is changed (for example, to "Are Mordvinians of North Iranian stock"), I will no longer take part in it.

Polako

2011-10-06, 08:47

We dont know if those South Siberian skeletons were Z93- and the STR's dont tell (especially not with only 17 markers).

That was not my point and ofcource you are right. My point was that aeon trying to proove "North Iranity" of Russians with those ancient Siberians is non-tenable as the STRs could have come with the Turkics aswell.

A) Founders at Volga
B) Fast expansion to east and west
B) Later Expansion from East -> West

So we could be looking scenario where the same STR-lineages exists natively both edges of the expansion zone in Europe and at Siberia, while the much later Siberian expansion to Europe could have contributed to the presence of STR-lineage at Russians.

Or the spreadmap could indicate that there just was not enough of samples from lot of places and thus creating completely wrong georaphical pattern for the STR-lineages.

Or it might be just random chance that STRs of only 17 markers resemble each other while there is no uniting SNP-haplogroup (downstream from R1a1) between the two.

The STR lineages identified in that study can't be a random coincidence, they also couldn't have spread from east to west.

The reason they can't be a random coincidence is that mtDNA lineages from the same specimens show the same initial geographic distribution, with a peak in Central-Eastern Europe. Interestingly, it seems as if Central-Eastern Europe has been an area of extremely high R1a frequency for thousands of years, and the Andronovo tribes had to come from such an area, because they were almost 100% R1a1a.

And the reason they couldn't have traveled from East to West, is because if they did, they would've been accompanied by the much more numerous Turkic-specific Z93 lineages. But Z93 is a freak occurrence in ethnic Russians, and everyone else north of the Carpathians.

So the only plausible theory is that there was a large movement of people across the steppes, from west to east, and the matching STRs found in Eastern Europe today are ancestral to this migration, or due to it, and not due to back flows from Asia.

Hweinlant

2011-10-06, 09:01

Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations

OK, I have that too :)

The resulting STR profile, mitochondrial haplotype, and haplogroup were compared with data from modern Eurasian and northern native American populations and were found only in European populations historically influenced by ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia.

Got it ?

Mtdna of those two (2) was D* and F2a.

This is what the study says:

"The distribution of haplogroup F2a is even more restricted. F2a is only observed in some Chinese populations (Yao et al., 2002a,b; Nishimaki et al., 1999; Horai et al., 1996), and in one Mongol subject (1%) (Kolman et al., 1996), one Yakut subject (4.5%), and one Evens subject (1.5%) (Derenko et al., 1997) (Table 7). It is likely that the modern populations presenting subhaplogroup F2a did not live in the same locations 2,500 years ago. However, most of the Chinese group movements from the Iron Age to the present were limited to within the borders of China (Yao et al., 2002b). Therefore, the quasiexclusive presence of subhaplogroup F2a in Chinese populations suggests that the adult of Sebÿstei is linked, by maternal lineage, to populations living in China. This reinforces the idea that there were genetic relations between the Altaic Scytho-Siberian and competing Chinese kingdoms' populations."

Are you thus saying that early Slavs, who were farmers from Central Europe, were genetically identical to people who were, infact, maternally East Asian ?

Trade has nothing to do with anthropology.

It has lot to do with anthropology. Change of economic system is big societal change. Going from Steppe Nomadism to Farming is huge change.

Mordvinians are North Iranics because they come from North Iranic cultures and have North Iranic genetics, their name is an additional argument.

They have North Iranian genetics because early Slavs from Central Europe were maternally East Asian ? I'm having hard time to follow you mate.

And using your own logic, if Mordvinians are FU, then Vologda Russians are FU too, while Finns are not FU, because they sit in the genetic chart very far from Mordvinians. So you have to choose who is FU between Vologda Russians and Finns. Make the hard choice.

Why is there choise like that to be made ? Please explain.

Finno-Ugrians were extremely mixed 50/50 West/Easr Eurasian mestizos from day 1.

There is no real proof for that but there is proof that Indo-Europeans were Euro/Siberian mestizos from day one. It possible means that Uralics were also but like I said, no evidence other than circular evidence via mestizo Indo-Europeans.

Ancient Mitochondrial DNA From Pre-historic Southeastern Europe: The Presence of East Eurasian Haplogroups Provides Evidence of Interactions with South Siberians Across the Central Asian Steppe Belt (http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/theses/5/)

Neither I nor anybody else has claimed Russians are of North Iranian stock. So, unless/until the name of the thread is changed (for example, to "Are Mordvinians of North Iranian stock"), I will no longer take part in it.

No wonder you run away.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-06, 09:50

This is crazy. At first Finns were half Chineses (the origin of N, 2 year ago), then Nganassans (Dienekes' autosomal evidences, 1 year ago), but after a lot of scientific work (generally speaking) and after total absence of genetic ancestral evidence, just North Eurasian alleles, it turned out to be genetic drift (Polako today), and again to be Chinese (aeon today). This must be a very important theme for someones and makes me wondering...

Polako

2011-10-06, 09:59

Are you thus saying that early Slavs, who were farmers from Central Europe, were genetically identical to people who were, infact, maternally East Asian ?

Europeans who migrated east picked up women with Asian-specific maternal lineages, starting in modern day Eastern Ukraine, right up to China.

Phylogeographic network analysis revealed that our samples are located at or near the ancestral node for haplogroup C and that derived lineages branching from the Neolithic samples were present in Bronze Age Kurgans.

This implies the demographic history for the European gene pool is more complex than previously considered and also has significant implications regarding the origin of Kurgan populations.

Newton, Jeremy R., "Ancient Mitochondrial DNA From Pre-historic Southeastern Europe: The Presence of East Eurasian Haplogroups Provides Evidence of Interactions with South Siberians Across the Central Asian Steppe Belt" (http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/theses/5/) (2011). Masters Theses. Paper 5.

Kurgan populations originated in what is today Europe. They then maintained a significant level of European autosomal DNA, and even craniofacial features, deep in Asia for a couple thousand years.

Hweinlant

2011-10-06, 10:35

Europeans who migrated east picked up women with Asian-specific maternal lineages, starting in modern day Eastern Ukraine, right up to China.

And how is this related to proto-Slavs (year Anno Domini) who were genetically identical to "North Iranians" who were maternally East Asian ?

Remember that aeons argument is that A) those ancient Siberians (who he calls North Iranians) were genetically identical to later day proto-Slavs.

B) Russians are genetically pure Slavs and thus genetically identical to North Iranians.

C) Mordvinians are genetically close to Slavs (=Russians) because they too are genetically identical to North Iranians.

This is very complicated and sounds like ruSSkie panSSlav bullshit :D

Kurgan populations originated in what is today Europe. They then maintained a significant level of European autosomal DNA, and even craniofacial features, deep in Asia for a couple thousand years.

Yes, in the Khvalynsk-culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture), which was located in the middle Volga. Where the Mordvinians live :)

Polako

2011-10-06, 11:10

And how is this related to proto-Slavs (year Anno Domini) who were genetically identical to "North Iranians" who were maternally East Asian ?

Proto-Slavs emerged from the same populations that gave rise to the Kurgan groups, just much later.

They didn't change dramatically over the couple millenia, and I expect that when full genome sequences are done of the Kurgan mummies, and hopefully the SNPs uploaded online, they'll cluster very close to the Balto-Slavs in my project. But they will have very clear East Asian admixture.

The Mordovians aren't that far from us either. If not for the fact that they've been exposed to more easterly gene flows, because they live near the Volga, they'd be basically identical to us.

And you're not that far from the Balto-Slavic world yourself. Indeed, you seem to show a very clear pull towards the Mordvins too.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-06, 11:18

Erzyans, Mokshas and other 3 groups i.e. Mordvinians are Balto-Slavs? Is this the conclusion?

aeon

2011-10-06, 12:17

Erzyans, Mokshas and other 3 groups i.e. Mordvinians are Balto-Slavs? Is this the conclusion?

Finnic-speaking North Iranics genetically very close to Balto-Slavs due to common East European IE ancestry.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-06, 12:22

... However, their language remains Iranic to a significant degree...
Just to make sure, in case someone not familiar with the topic is reading this: mordvinic is clearly a Volgaic finnish language, the one most related to Baltic finnic. There are many aryan-iranian loanwords in both of them, that is correct.

aeon

2011-10-06, 12:25

Why is there choise like that to be made ? Please explain.

Because
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9378/mds2h.png

If Mordvinians and North Russians are FU, then Finns are not FU.

Choices, choices...

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-06, 12:31

PCA/MDS dont show ancestral evidences, just something being different, in many cases about 1% of the available data.

This is really crazy.

Hweinlant

2011-10-06, 12:32

Proto-Slavs emerged from the same populations that gave rise to the Kurgan groups +, just much later.

LBK, Cucutenis, Funnelbeakers, Lengyels, Yamna, Corded Ware, Comb Ceramic makers etc. All of this (+ more) was allready fused into more "general" North/East European genetic mishmash and part of that mishmash were the proto-Slavs year 400 AD. The Indo-Iranian neighbours of proto-Slavs, year 400 AD, werent (propably) exactly the same as their linguistic ancestors from Volga 3000 years earlier. Considering that they were horse-bound people of steppe, which spanned from Ukraine to Mongolia.

And you're not that far from the Balto-Slavic world yourself. Indeed, you seem to show a very clear pull towards the Mordvins too.

Please keep this knowledge to yourself. I dont want aeon to claim me or Finns as Aryan :lol:

---------- Post added 2011-10-06 at 11:36 ----------

If Mordvinians and North Russians are FU, then Finns are not FU.

I guess the North Russians and Mordvinians are F.U then. I personaly am Finnic.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-06, 12:55

... The Indo-Iranian neighbours of proto-Slavs, year 400 AD, werent (propably) exactly the same as their linguistic ancestors from Volga 3000 years earlier. Considering that they were horse-bound people of steppe, which spanned from Ukraine to Mongolia.

Aeon may actually have a point, though a somewhat twisted one, here: the more aryan/iranian you are, the more indirect asian admix you are supposed to have. Makes sense.

aeon

2011-10-06, 13:12

Please keep this knowledge to yourself. I dont want aeon to claim me or Finns as Aryan

Do not even hope.

I guess the North Russians and Mordvinians are F.U then. I personaly am Finnic.

Finnic does not make much more sense than FU.

I hope they will finally check those Uralid Pit-Comb Ware remains and prove that they are direct ancestors of Finns, so that you commit suicide and spare us your trolling.

Hweinlant

2011-10-06, 13:47

I hope they will finally check those Uralid Pit-Comb Ware remains and prove that they are direct ancestors of Finns, so that you commit suicide and spare us your trolling.

Why would I commit suicide ? Ofcource the Pit-Comb people of Northeast Europe are my ancestors. They are your ancestors too dumb SSlav. They are more of your ancestors than mine tho', as largest part of Combed Ware-culture was in where is now Russia.

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-07, 07:13

Those descendants of serfs should be kept away from the Internet.

Evi

2011-10-07, 07:33

Those descendants of serfs should be kept away from the Internet.
Also Latvians or Estonians? You Finns seem to forget that not only Russians were serfs.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-07, 07:36

Those descendants of serfs should be kept away from the Internet.

Possibly, but Aeon's unintented creation of a hypothesis of some finnic asian admix being related to aryan-iranic influence is quite interesting, as finnic is so much influenced by those languages. For instance the name of Kekri, only recently one of the most important fiestas in Finland, the finnish halloween, is based on aryan "chakra".

I wonder if some of the asian admix visible in baltic finns could be found in the descendants of aryan-iranians of current central Russia? If such a group is to be found anymore?

"Etymology Bhattacharyya's review of Tantric history says that the word chakra is used to mean several different things in the Sanskrit sources:[42]

1."Circle," used in a variety of senses, symbolizing endless rotation of shakti.
2.A circle of people. In rituals there are different cakra-sādhanā in which adherents assemble and perform rites. According to the Niruttaratantra, chakras in the sense of assemblies are of 5 types.
3.The term chakra also is used to denote yantras or mystic diagrams, variously known as trikoṇa-cakra, aṣṭakoṇa-cakra, etc.
4.Different "nerve plexus within the body."
In Buddhist literature the Sanskrit term cakra (Pali cakka) is used in a different sense of "circle," referring to a Buddhist conception of the four circles or states of existence in which gods or men may find themselves.[43]

The linguist Jorma Koivulehto wrote (2001) of the annual Finnish Kekri celebration having borrowed the word from early Indo-Aryan.[44] Indo-European cognates include Greek kuklos, Lithuanian kaklas, Tocharian B kokale and English "wheel."[45]

Cognates of "chakra" still exist in modern Asian languages as well. In Malay, "cakera" means "disc," e.g. "cakera padat" = "compact disc.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 08:43

I wonder if some of the asian admix visible in baltic finns could be found in the descendants of aryan-iranians of current central Russia? If such a group is to be found anymore?

It could be. Especially if you think that the "Scythian world" spanned the South Siberia and all they way Mongolia. They also had a thing for reindeer. Pazyryk even tattooed reindeers into their skin.

EastPole

2011-10-07, 09:05

Possibly, but Aeon's unintented creation of a hypothesis of some finnic asian admix being related to aryan-iranic influence is quite interesting, as finnic is so much influenced by those languages. For instance the name of Kekri, only recently one of the most important fiestas in Finland, the finnish halloween, is based on aryan "chakra".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

‘Cakra’ comes from Slavic ‘kolo/kulko’ “circle, wheel”. Because ‘k’ is used in ‘kekri’ and not ‘c’ it means they were not influenced by Indo-Iranian but rather by Slavic tribes. In Indo-Iranian there was a sound shift ‘k’>’ch’ and many Vedic words resemble Slavic when ‘c’ is replaced by ‘k’ like slav. ‘kolati’ > ved. ‘charati’ “move, turn”; ‘r’ replaces ‘l’ in Slavic often like pol. ‘korona’ “crown” which comes from root ‘kol-‘. I have more evidence that they were no Iranic but Slavic related tribes and show you later. Notice also Slavic river names: Rava (Volga), Kama, Oka, Belaya. I think that Mordvins have more in common with Slavs than with Iranians.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-07, 09:15

‘Cakra’ comes from Slavic...
I simply can't believe that finnish linguistics such as Koivulehto, Parpola bro's and also Jaska would be so hopeless in terms of their doings. So, in all due respect, you have to be wrong regarding causality.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-07, 09:24

Wojewoda

2011-10-07, 09:51

‘Cakra’ comes from Slavic ‘kolo/kulko’ “circle, wheel”. Because ‘k’ is used in ‘kekri’ and not ‘c’ it means they were not influenced by Indo-Iranian but rather by Slavic tribes. In Indo-Iranian there was a sound shift ‘k’>’ch’ and many Vedic words resemble Slavic when ‘c’ is replaced by ‘k’ like slav. ‘kolati’ > ved. ‘charati’ “move, turn”; ‘r’ replaces ‘l’ in Slavic often like pol. ‘korona’ “crown” which comes from root ‘kol-‘. I have more evidence that they were no Iranic but Slavic related tribes and show you later. Notice also Slavic river names: Rava (Volga), Kama, Oka, Belaya. I think that Mordvins have more in common with Slavs than with Iranians.

By the way I love the Polish word "kołowrót" (in English "wheel and axle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_and_axle)) which combines in one word 2 Indoeuropean roots related to wheel/rotation:

The English word wheel comes from the Old English word hweol, hweogol, from Proto-Germanic *hwehwlan, *hwegwlan, from Proto-Indo-European *kwekwlo-,[1] an extended form of the root *kwel- "to revolve, move around". Cognates within Indo-European include Greek κύκλος kýklos, "wheel", Sanskrit chakra, Old Church Slavonic kolo, all meaning "circle" or "wheel",[2]

The Latin word rota is from the Proto-Indo-European *rotā-, the extended o-grade form of the root *ret- meaning "to roll, revolve".[3]

I would like to know if there exist any other word in any IE language with this property.

aeon

2011-10-07, 09:57

Also Latvians or Estonians? You Finns seem to forget that not only Russians were serfs.

Also Anglo-Saxons (about 90% compared to 40% of Russians), Germans, French and most other Europeans.

:lol:

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 09:00 ----------

Why would I commit suicide ? Ofcource the Pit-Comb people of Northeast Europe are my ancestors. They are your ancestors too dumb SSlav. They are more of your ancestors than mine tho', as largest part of Combed Ware-culture was in where is now Russia.

Fortunately, most of those Uralids in Russia were wiped out by my aR1an ancestors.

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-07, 10:00

Also Anglo-Saxons (about 90% compared to 40% of Russians), Germans, French and most other Europeans.

:lol:

Turn the figures around, dear aeon. More than 90% of Russians were serfs (compare that with more than 90% of Finns who were free men and women).

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 10:03

‘Cakra’ comes from Slavic ‘kolo/kulko’ “circle, wheel”.

Impossible. There is no way in hell that Kolo transforms into Kekri. This kind of result is beoynd the methods of comparative linguistics and basicly just your wishful thinking. Finnish does have word Kulku/Kulkea ('to move forward') which could be from Baltoslavic but I personally would look to Indo-Iranians in this case too.

Notice also Slavic river names: Rava (Volga), Kama, Oka, Belaya. I think that Mordvins have more in common with Slavs than with Iranians.

Rava is exactly Indo-Iranian (while Volga is Uralic). Oka is Uralic (compare Finnish: Joki, 'river'. Belaya is likely just direct translation from some Volga-like motive (Volga, Uralic for 'white', compare Finnish: Valkea or Vepsian: Valgeda). Kama I'm not sure about but propably Uralic (compare Finnish: Kemi, Kymi 'big river').

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-07, 10:09

Fortunately, most of those Uralids in Russia were wiped out by my aR1an ancestors.

What's so fine in being Aryan and how can a haplogorup be Aryan? Why did the selfproclaimed Aryans try to wipe you out some 70 years ago if you are Aryan too?

Big questions, aeon.

But the biggest is, why haven't you "Aryans" managed to gain any respect by other people?

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-07, 10:11

It could be. Especially if you think that the "Scythian world" spanned the South Siberia and all they way Mongolia. They also had a thing for reindeer. Pazyryk even tattooed reindeers into their skin.
Indeed and for your information, Aeon: the word for tame reindeer in finnish, saami and many other related languages seems to be of aryan-iranic origin. This document is in finnish, for those willing and able to doublecheck the fact:

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust253/sust253_koivulehto.pdf

Actually there seems to be a real possibility that the aryan-iranians of the later central Russia were semi-nomadic reindeer herders, with a considerable asian admix. As some of the finnic terms related to slash-and-burn-type of agriculture are from the same source, they had other interests too.

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 10:12

Fortunately, most of those Uralids in Russia were wiped out by my aR1an ancestors.

How is it possible that literally millions of Russians have Suburalid traits ?

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-07, 10:14

Fortunately, most of those Uralids in Russia were wiped out by my aR1an ancestors.

No, their blood flows in your veins. Like Polako said, Slavs became mad when mixed with Uralics. But who were those Uralics? Finns have nothing to do with it.

Wojewoda

2011-10-07, 10:20

Fortunately, most of those Uralids in Russia were wiped out by my aR1an ancestors.

What about 23% of Russians who are FinN1c?

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 10:24

Actually there seems to be a real possibility that the aryan-iranians of the later central Russia were semi-nomadic reindeer herders, with a considerable asian admix. As some of the finnic terms related to slash-and-burn-type of agriculture are from the same source, they had other interests too.

Imo originally those Indo-Iranian reindeer herders were the same people as Seyma-Turbino inc. They were thus' not only metallurgists and tradesmen but also reindeer herders. This explains their mobile lifestyle and fast expansion from Altay-Sayan all the way to East Baltic. It also explains why there are strange Tokharian loanwords with very limited distribution within Finno-Permic. First wave of Seyma-Turbinian businessmen were still talking in Tokharian while the later groups spoke in Indo-Iranian.

Wojewoda

2011-10-07, 10:25

Indeed and for your information, Aeon: the word for tame reindeer in finnish, saami and many other related languages seems to be of aryan-iranic origin. This document is in finnish, for those willing and able to doublecheck the fact:

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust253/sust253_koivulehto.pdf

Actually there seems to be a real possibility that the aryan-iranians of the later central Russia were semi-nomadic reindeer herders, with a considerable asian admix. As some of the finnic terms related to slash-and-burn-type of agriculture are from the same source, they had other interests too.

Is it even possible? Reindeer zone looks like N1c are not R1a1 one

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-07, 10:28

What about 23% of Russians who are FinN1c?

Being humble, I have to correct, also Baltic Nic, not only Baltic -Finnic.

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 10:29

What about 23% of Russians who are FinN1c?

There is no point of talking any averages for Russians.

N1c1* is dominant (or approx 35 - 50%) haplogroup in different tested NW Russians. South Russians have it only less than 10% (<- = Ukrainians). It's obvious that those regions of NW Russia which have plenty of N1c1* are also the regions where the most Nordic looking Russians come from.

Huckleberry Finn

2011-10-07, 10:50

Is it even possible? Reindeer zone looks like N1c are not R1a1 one
What is possible? That the loanword is aryan-iranic? It is. That the aryan-iranics were also reindeer herders? Yes, why not? I wouldn't rely too much on the maps you posted.

Seymino Turbino was according to scientists probably a multicultural phenomenom, being related to many linguistic groups, which on the other hand may have been interrelated in some manner.

aeon

2011-10-07, 11:50

Turn the figures around, dear aeon. More than 90% of Russians were serfs (compare that with more than 90% of Finns who were free men and women).

In real life about 40% of Russians were serfs. Sorry to hurt your feelings.

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 10:55 ----------

What's so fine in being Aryan and how can a haplogorup be Aryan?

No way can a haplogroup be Aryan. A haplogroup can only be Finno-Ugrian.

Why did the selfproclaimed Aryans try to wipe you out some 70 years ago if you are Aryan too?

They did not.

Big questions, aeon.

But the biggest is, why haven't you "Aryans" managed to gain any respect by other people?

We Aryans have the biggest respect by other people. The name Aryan is the most aspired-to in human history. (While nobody wants to be Finno-Ugrian, for example.)

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 10:58 ----------

How is it possible that literally millions of Russians have Suburalid traits ?

Suburalid type is totally alien to Russians, unless you include Finno-Ugrian minorities.

---------- Post added 2011-10-07 at 10:59 ----------

What about 23% of Russians who are FinN1c?

Rather 15%, and on autosomal charts they will sit near other Russians.

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 12:51

Suburalid type is totally alien to Russians, unless you include Finno-Ugrian minorities.

I can spot ruskies from any crowd pretty easily by just checking for Suburalid traits.

Your national hero, Yuri Gagarin is pretty good example. He is stereotypical Central Russian.

Edit: Added even better example; another national hero of Russia: Viacheslav Bykov

aeon

2011-10-07, 12:55

I can spot ruskies from any crowd pretty easily by just checking for Suburalid traits.

Your national hero, Yuri Gagarin is pretty good example. He is stereotypical Central Russian.

He is no Suburalid. Such types are spread throughout Europe.

Uralid means 50% East Eurasian genetics. Suburalid about 25%. Russians have 0-1%.

Hweinlant

2011-10-07, 12:57

Uralid means 50% East Eurasian genetics. Suburalid about 25%. Russians have 0-1%.

Uralid and Suburalid are phenotypical classifications and not genetic. Stop bullshitting yourself. Gagarin is Suburalid and Viacheslav is pretty much Uralid.

Polako

2011-10-07, 13:16

Isn't Bykov a Tatar or something? He reminds me a lot of Charles Bronson, who was a Lithuanian Tatar, apparently.

aeon

2011-10-07, 19:46

Uralid and Suburalid are phenotypical classifications and not genetic. Stop bullshitting yourself. Gagarin is Suburalid and Viacheslav is pretty much Uralid.

A person with 100% European genetics can not possibly be (Sub)Uralid.

I can find similar looking people in the British Isles but it would be insane to call them (Sub)Uralid.

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-07, 19:56

In real life about 40% of Russians were serfs. Sorry to hurt your feelings.[COLOR="Silver"]
No way can a haplogroup be Aryan. A haplogroup can only be Finno-Ugrian.
They did not.
.
Big questions deserve better answers than the BS you type...

Polako

2011-10-08, 03:18

Interesting bit of news...

European admixture in ancient East Asians (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-admixture-in-ancient-east-asia.html)

Hweinlant

2011-10-10, 08:37

A person with 100% European genetics can not possibly be (Sub)Uralid.

How do you know Gagarin was 100% European by genetics ? I seriously doubt he was as 100% European Russians are extremely rare.

I can find similar looking people in the British Isles but it would be insane to call them (Sub)Uralid.

If they look like him then surely they are Suburalid ( needless to say that he doesnt look British at all).

---------- Post added 2011-10-10 at 07:59 ----------

Isn't Bykov a Tatar or something? He reminds me a lot of Charles Bronson, who was a Lithuanian Tatar, apparently.

If he would be Tatar it would be mentioned atleast in Russian language Wikipedia. Bykov is genuine hero of Russians, surely the Tatars would claim him in second if they could.

Jaska

2011-10-12, 13:50

Unlike Finns whose authority on ethnic history is a hairpiece manufacturer, I am well aware that the only remaining people who may be called authentic Fenno-Ugrians in more than linguistic sense are Mansis and Khanties.
How can you say that? Nobody knows what were the genes of Proto-Uralic speakers like.

No idea. However, their language remains Iranic to a significant degree.
No it does not. Mordvin is a (two) Uralic language(s). A few loanwords cannot change this.

‘Cakra’ comes from Slavic ‘kolo/kulko’ “circle, wheel”.
Wrong, cakra comes from the same PIE word as kolo: < *kwekwlo-. This is common knowledge, and your pseudo-scientific hypotheses cannot change it.

Imo originally those Indo-Iranian reindeer herders were the same people as Seyma-Turbino inc. They were thus' not only metallurgists and tradesmen but also reindeer herders. This explains their mobile lifestyle and fast expansion from Altay-Sayan all the way to East Baltic. It also explains why there are strange Tokharian loanwords with very limited distribution within Finno-Permic. First wave of Seyma-Turbinian businessmen were still talking in Tokharian while the later groups spoke in Indo-Iranian.
There are no traces of reindeer herding in Europe south of the tundra. Altay-Sayan reindeer herding only gave birth to Samoyed reindeer herding, and the Saami reindeer herding was independently born in Lapland less than 1 000 years ago, analogous to the Norwegian sheep herding. Samoyeds only arrived at the White Sea region about 500 years ago, so they have nothing to do with the Saami reindeer herding. There are no common old words in the Saami and Nenets reindeer herding vocabulary.

aeon

2011-10-12, 14:30

If Mordvinians are Finns, why are they closer to Slavs than to other Finns?

Tuohikirje

2011-10-12, 14:55

If Mordvinians are Finns, why are they closer to Slavs than to other Finns?

Why they would have to be closer to Finns, we are the Northern most group.
Forget Russian/Slavic whatever borders. Slavs have Finnic admix where they
are.

Wojewoda

2011-10-12, 15:28

At DNA-Forums I have come across an interesting opinion (http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/16054-z93-in-r1a1a1-now-available-for-order/page__view__findpost__p__281054) today:

Finns are genetically not representative for F-P [Finno-Permian] peoples, they have a strong founder effect of N1c1 and I1d-Bothnia; we should study Estonians, Mordvins, Maris, Udmurts etc. to have an answer for FU genetics

Do experts on FU matters agree?

bergh

2011-10-12, 15:30

In real life about 40% of Russians were serfs.

Source: Government scientist Dr Yamak

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/nov2009/1/8/borat-pic-pa-711262624.jpg

EastPole

2011-10-12, 15:53

Wrong, cakra comes from the same PIE word as kolo: < *kwekwlo-. This is common knowledge, and your pseudo-scientific hypotheses cannot change it.

You are wrong.

‘*kol-‘ is root and we have ‘koło/kolo’ > ‘kułko/kulko’ > kuklo > chakra

*kwekwlo- is not a real spoken word, nobody has ever used it, it has not been spoken by anybody, anywhere, anytime – it a sign, symbol of correspondences between IE languages. All words I used are real used by people who had contacts and were able to borrow wheel concept and a word for it. That order corresponds directly with the direction of the spread of wheeled vehicle. Etymology, modifications, sound changes are clear.

What is the etymology of *kwekwlo- ? Where was it spoken? By whom? When? What is the evidence? Nobody knows? This is crap pseudoscience then.

Don’t tell me about ‘common knowledge’ because not long ago ‘common knowledge’ was that Germanic ‘Aryans’ went to India. ‘*kwekwlo-‘ is just a remainder from those times. It is pushed by guys like Mallory, who believes that Tocharians were Celts, and others who don’t know languages or just have to repeat ‘common nonsense’ if they want to be recognized by ‘science’ in Germanic countries.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-12, 16:10

At DNA-Forums I have come across an interesting opinion (http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/16054-z93-in-r1a1a1-now-available-for-order/page__view__findpost__p__281054) today:

Do experts on FU matters agree?

The Estonians are more Finnic than the Finns and we have no Saami legacy, but how do the Estonians fit into the same group with people like the Udmurts or the Mari? :|

It's like studying the Danes and the Greeks as one single ethnicity.

voron

2011-10-12, 16:31

Actually, it turns out, Estonians and Maris are virtually indistinguishable.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=23909

Tuohikirje

2011-10-12, 16:43

The Estonians are more Finnic than the Finns

Compared to what/who?

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-12, 17:05

Actually, it turns out, Estonians and Maris are virtually indistinguishable.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=23909

Not really. Already the geographic distance between these 2 populations is too great for any big similarities to exist.

Estonians are similar to other Northern-Europeans of Finnic, Scandinavian and Baltic heritage.

voron

2011-10-12, 19:59

Not really. Already the geographic distance between these 2 populations is too great for any big similarities to exist.

Estonians are similar to other Northern-Europeans of Finnic, Scandinavian and Baltic heritage.

I don't know man, Freewheel called that look "common", there is nothing Scandinavian or Baltic about it, that's for sure.
I think there is a certain overlap in looks between Estonians and Scandinavians, but most of the time it is easy to tell them apart.

Jaska

2011-10-12, 20:17

If Mordvinians are Finns, why are they closer to Slavs than to other Finns?
Of course Mordvinians are not Finns, only Finns are Finns. Linguistically Mordvinians are not Finnic, either. What they are genetically is totally another matter. Peoples tend to be genetically closer to their neighbours than the more remote peoples: Finns are closer to Swedes than Mordvinians; Mordvinians are closer to Russians than Finns; Russians are closer to Mordvinians than Bulgarians, etc.

You just cannot claim that you know what the genes of the protolanguage speakers were like.

“Finns are genetically not representative for F-P [Finno-Permian] peoples, they have a strong founder effect of N1c1 and I1d-Bothnia; we should study Estonians, Mordvins, Maris, Udmurts etc. to have an answer for FU genetics”
Do experts on FU matters agree?
We should study all the Uralic peoples to find out the genes of the Proto-Uralic speakers; likewise, we should study all the IE peoples to find out the genes of the Proto-Indo-European speakers. There is probably a lot of “non-Uralic genes” in Finns, inherited from the earlier inhabitants; the same gies with Estonians, Samoyeds and all the others. Even though the Udmurts live on the area where we locate the Proto-Uralic homeland, we cannot reason that the Proto-Uralic speakers must have been like Udmurts, because there have been strong Iranian and Turkic influence on Udmurts. It would be just as silly as to claim that the Ukrainians are genetically closest to the PIE speakers, only because they live on the same area.

There are no single “genetically original” people today, but all the peoples have different kind of admixtures.

You are wrong.
‘*kol-‘ is root and we have ‘koło/kolo’ > ‘kułko/kulko’ > kuklo > chakra
You should study comparative Indo-European linguistics instead of inventing your own protolanguages; you would avoid much futile work. There are absolutely no arguments to support your pseudoscientific claims. You have just erroneously decided that Slavic is closest to Proto-Indo-European. Don’t waste your time, your religion cannot replace the scientific views.

You cannot reconstruct PIE only on the basis of one or two branches; you have to take into account all the branches. And then you can see that Slavic is not so close to Proto-Indo-European.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-12, 20:25

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-12, 20:33

I don't know man, Freewheel called that look "common", there is nothing Scandinavian or Baltic about it, that's for sure.
I think there is a certain overlap in looks between Estonians and Scandinavians, but most of the time it is easy to tell them apart.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I know that Estonians look stereotypically Northern-European and resemble people near them, not people 2000km away.

Russian immigrants here look exotic, with their Eastern-European and Black Sea Pontid looks.

voron

2011-10-12, 20:51

I don't know what you are talking about.

I know that Estonians look stereotypically Northern-European and resemble people near them, not people 2000km away.

Russian immigrants here look exotic, with their Eastern-European and Black Sea Pontid looks.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110429&d=1318192550

Third lady from the left is Estonian. Have you ever met Scandinavians or other Europeans who look like that? I sure as hell haven't. Freewheel says it is a typical Estonian look. If it so, then Estonians aren't that different from Maris (or albino Koreans). Are you still going to say that you don't know what I am talking about? Because I do not know how else to explain it.

takoja

2011-10-12, 20:55

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110429&d=1318192550

Third lady from the left is Estonian. Have you ever met Scandinavians or other Europeans who look like that? I sure as hell haven't. Freewheel says it is a typical Estonian look. If it so, then Estonians aren't that different from Maris (or albino Koreans). Are you still going to say that you don't know what I am talking about? Because I do not know how else to explain it.

Actually amazingly Palla has found a good deal of them. That guy is amazing, don't know how he does it.

voron

2011-10-12, 20:56

Pallantides to the rescue! I am actually expecting him to turn up any second now.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-12, 20:59

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110429&d=1318192550

Third lady from the left is Estonian. Have you ever met Scandinavians or other Europeans who look like that? I sure as hell haven't. Freewheel says it is a typical Estonian look. If it so, then Estonians aren't that different from Maris (or albino Koreans). Are you still going to say that you don't know what I am talking about? Because I do not know how else to explain it.

He once posted a picture of an "Estonian" woman, who looked like an identical twin to a member here called Evi. He also posted pictures of Latvians and claimed that they're Estonians.

He is the Estonian Grynda and you are a Eastern-European steppe-nigger who would look exotic among Northern-European Estonians.

aeon

2011-10-12, 21:07

Source: Government scientist Dr Yamak

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/nov2009/1/8/borat-pic-pa-711262624.jpg

Yes, that's where Finns get their info on Russia from.

---------- Post added 2011-10-12 at 20:12 ----------

Why they would have to be closer to Finns, we are the Northern most group.
Forget Russian/Slavic whatever borders. Slavs have Finnic admix where they
are.

Slavs are a compact group, while FUs are spread all over the place. Mordvinians are closer to Slavs than to other FUs, that means Mordvinians are Finnic-speaking IEs.

---------- Post added 2011-10-12 at 20:14 ----------

This same repeats and repeats; Russians and Poles continues "proving" that Finns and Estonians are something, and they are pure Aryans. If I remember right the pure Aryans were earlier Germans, not Slavs. How it is now changed like this?

You remember wrong.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-12, 21:19

Yes, that's where Finns get their info on Russia from.

---------- Post added 2011-10-12 at 20:12 ----------

Slavs are a compact group, while FUs are spread all over the place. Mordvinians are closer to Slavs than to other FUs, that means Mordvinians are Finnic-speaking IEs.

We were tens of years the best western source for the Russian info. Yankees asked from us what you think about something. Kekkonen and Breznev sat in sauna and shot other day boars, like Putin today. We already know you :thumbsup:

Tuohikirje

2011-10-12, 21:44

Slavs are a compact group, while FUs are spread all over the place. Mordvinians are closer to Slavs than to other FUs, that means Mordvinians are Finnic-speaking IEs.

Slavs definitely are the last to be mentioned as a compact group. I mean, we understand that it must bug you to be the last to arrive to indigenous people's areas such as Mordvinians. But you cannot make Volga Finns IE, not anyway twisting the same matter around every possible ways.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-12, 22:09

Slavs definitely are the last to be mentioned as a compact group. I mean, we understand that it must bug you to be the last to arrive to indigenous people's areas such as Mordvinians. But you cannot make Volga Finns IE, not anyway twisting the same matter around every possible ways.

Linguistically the Slavs are a young and compact group, but genetically very diverse. The latter thing doesnt change by repeating something else and making fake genetic studies. Many small and genetically different nations adapted the eastern church language and forgot who they were.

voron

2011-10-13, 09:43

He is the Estonian Grynda and you are a Eastern-European steppe-nigger who would look exotic among Northern-European Estonians.

No shit I would look exotic among Estonians. Thanks for the compliment, swamp-nigger .:p

aeon

2011-10-13, 10:14

Slavs definitely are the last to be mentioned as a compact group.

Change Slavs to FUs, and you get the real life picture. FUs are the epitome of mixture like Turkics, and that is the cause why they suffer from similar delusions.

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 10:42

This same repeats and repeats; Russians and Poles continues "proving" that Finns and Estonians are something, and they are pure Aryans. If I remember right the pure Aryans were earlier Germans, not Slavs. How it is now changed like this?

Actually the remark from DNA-Forums I quoted above (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=545764&postcount=78) was made by a Hungarian.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-13, 10:43

Change Slavs to FUs, and you get the real life picture. FUs are the epitome of mixture like Turkics, and that is the cause why they suffer from similar delusions.

Well, the only 'Turkic' possible is from you.
You should have stayed away, don't you think.

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 10:58

I have found this (http://www.christopherculver.com/linguistweblog/2008/06/iranian-loans-in-mordvin/) on Iranian loans in Mordvin:

I found this little bit of trivia from Raija Barten’s Mordvalaiskielten rakenne ja kehitys (Helsinki: Finno-Ugrian Society, 1999) worth translating and sharing.

Mordvin also has Indo-Iranian and Iranian loanwords which are not found in other Finno-Ugrian languages. Some 18 items have been found (Korenchy 1988: 675; only Hungarian has more of these loans: in Hungarian alone 30 Iranian loanwords have been found; in Mari there are only 6 such loans). Examples include M[oksha] pavas, E[rzya] pas ‘God;’ in Moksha also ‘luck’ ~ Sanskrit bhagas ‘God, sun, luck’. E veŕges, M vəŕgas ‘wolf’ ~ Sanskrit vṛgas. By the time of Avestan, Iranian words had already lost final sibilants, so Mordvin may have borrowed the words from an older layer. However, it may be that some Iranian dialects spoken in Southern Russia had conserved old features. Therefore, the borrowing may have occurred later, in the Middle Iranian period. (The Middle Iranian Saka tribes inhabited the north shore of the Black Sea as late as AD 400.) The Erzya name for the Volga, Rav, Ravo is attributed to Iranian, while in Moksha the same word rava means river. The term tarvas for a scythe and the E śeja and M śava ‘goat’ were also borrowed from the Iranians. The Mordvin kinship term E sazor, sazoro, M sazə̑r, sazə̑ra ‘sister’ is attributed to an Iranian source (it is present in Baltic Finnic from a Baltic source and Mari, Udmurt and Komi possibly have cognate words).

The Korenchy 1988 citation given is the chapter ‘Iranischer Einfluss in den finnisch-ugrischen Sprachen’ in The Uralic Languages: Description, history and foreign influences ed. Denis Sinor (Leiden: Brill, 1988).

EDIT: And from the same source a description of the way linguistic contacts between proto-Finno-Permic and proto-Indo-European people looked like:

A Pre-Finno-Mordvinian comes to a neighbouring Proto-Indo-European village and looks around in bewilderment.

―What are you looking for here? — someone asks him (a Pre-Aryan, as it turns out later — though there are also many Pre-Greeks, Pre-Slavs, Pre-Balts and especially Pre-Germans dwelling in the same village).

― Oh, I’d like to borrow a word for boat… — the guest answers.

― What are you speaking about? Do you want to borrow one of our boats?

― Why should I? We have plenty of boats ourselves. In fact, we are a long way ahead of you in boat-making! How else could we become skilled fishermen? I only need your word for boat!

― Don’t you have your own word for it?

― Surely we do! But you know, nowadays it’s all the rage — to use Indo-European loans!

― Well, — the pre-Aryan scrunches up his brow. ― Naturally we do have a name for boat. It is *nāus — everbody, except these stupid and stubborn Pre-Slavs and Pre-Balts, knows and uses it! But I just cannot lend this word to you! I need it for myself, and for my Old Indic offspring, who will call boats nāu, and for my Ossetic descendents, so that they could call them naw! No, you won’t get this precious lexical item!

― What shall I do then? I cannot come back empty-handed. Maybe you will find for me something less valuable or little needed, if you have such a thing? And you must have, Pokorny tells us that your language is so rich in stems!

― He is right, we do have some other boat-names, *aldhu-, *(s)kolmos, and *plou̯os, for example. But lending them is out of the question, forget it! We Indo-Europeans need these names for ourselves, if we are going to have our languages spread over continents!

― Have pity, give me something, at least! — moans the poor creature.

― I’ve had enough of your begging! Here, take the word *wen-(e/o-) — this is the only one I can give you! At present nobody really uses it here — this word will emerge only in Sanskrit as vána- and in Avestan as vanā-, without any Indo-European etymology and without any trace of the vowel e. So nobody will now notice it is missing. But I must warn you, this word does not really denote a boat! It is a word for tree, or for wood, or for timber. At best you can refer to a chunk of wood or a wooden vessel, like a bucket or trough, with this name…

― No matter, our boats are after all no less wooden than troughs! You know, sometimes we just use dug-out stems as canoe boats! That will suit me! Thank you very much indeed, now I can head home with this wonderful new loan!

― Hey, wait a moment! You cannot borrow wen-(e/o)- just so as it is. What if one of our guys hears and recognises it? He’ll take it back, and I’ll get into trouble for squandering words! You must disguise the loan. Look, you may add some unusual non-Indo-European suffix to it. For example, -š — this will be a proper disguise.

― What a wise idea! I will do so. Many thanks again, it was so kind of you!

And the happy Pre-Finno-Mordvinian leaves the village whispering: “*Veneš, *veneš! How sweet these Indo-European words are!”

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 13:06

A chapter on the linguistic links between Indo-Iranian and Finno-Ugrian (http://books.google.pl/books?id=cWDhKTj1SBYC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=sanskrit+and+indo-european+%22there+is+therefore%22&source=bl&ots=iUsrOiHRGn&sig=__KYbdHJpqoQ_bubTsxNr67xKok&hl=pl&ei=UdKWTpmwH46DhQein42LBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=sanskrit%20and%20indo-european%20%22there%20is%20therefore%22&f=false) from the book by Thomas Burrow "The Sanscrit language".

There is therefore not the slightest doubt that the period when these borrowings took place was the primitive Indo-Iranian period, and it appears probable that the seat of this primitive Indo-Iranian must have been in the region of the middle Volga and the Urals for this contact to have been possible.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-13, 13:16

"Vene" in Finnish http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&rlz=&q=vene&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2155l2889l0l4313l4l4l0l0l0l0l380l1026l0.1.2 .1l4l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=691

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 14:16

Some interesting quotes about Balto-Slavic from the above mentioned book:

[Indo-Iranian] position can further be determined by the specially close relations which are found to exist between it and Balto-Slavonic. Since the Balts and the Slavs are not likely to have moved far from the positions in which they are to be found in their earliest recorded history, the original location of Indo-Iranian towards the South-East of this area becomes highly probable.
(...)
The only thing that emerges clearly is that there did at one time exist special relationship etween early Indo-Iranian and those dialects of Indo-European which developed eventually into the Baltic and Slavonic languages.
(...)
The conclusion that must be drawn is that at one time the two branches were in close geographical proximity, and that this innovation affecting IEs established itself over a limited area comprising Slavonic and Indo-Iranian, but excluding the rest of Indo-European.
(...)
In the sphere of vocabulary Indo-Iranian shares with Baltic and Slavonic a considerable number of words which are not found in the other Indo-European languages.
(...)
The list of common words and other features which are special to the two groups is clearly impressive, and the whole of the material must be referred to the period of Primitive Indo-Iranian. When on contrary we look for signs of special contact between Iranian itself and Slavonic (or Baltic) we find that there are practically none.
(...)
Attempts to find examples of Iranian loanwords in Slavonic have been singurarly unsuccessful.
(...)
This absence of Iranian influence on Slavonic is surprising in view of the repeated incursions of Scythian tribes into Europe, and the prolonged occupation by them f extensive territories reaching to the Danube. Clearly at this later period the Slavs must have remained almost completely uninfluenced politically and culturally by the Iranians. On the other hand at a much earlier period (c. 2000 B.C.) before the primitive Aryans left their European homeland, Indo-Iranian and the prototypes of Baltic and Slavonic must have existed as close neighbours for a considerable period of time.

It would suggest that Balto-Slavic was in close contact with proto-Aryan, but not with later Iranian languages. So what about the contacts of Balto-Slavs with Scythians and Sarmatians? Aren't Scythians and Sarmatians supposed to have spoken languages from the Iranian family?

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-13, 14:21

"Vene" in Finnish http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&rlz=&q=vene&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2155l2889l0l4313l4l4l0l0l0l0l380l1026l0.1.2 .1l4l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=691

Very interesting. In Estonian, "Venemaa" is Russia, in Finnish it would be "boatland"? :p

One interesting fact, the Estonian word for "boat", which is "paat" comes from Proto-Germanic. In Swedish/Norwegian, the word for "boat" is "båt" and in Danish it is "båd".

But this makes sense, as Estonians have had historically more connections with the Scandinavians than the Finns, in ancient times.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-13, 14:22

One more interesting quote about Balto-Slavic from the above mentioned book:

Primitive Indo-Iranian? What is that, date?

I have always thought that Proto-Slavic e.g. is related to Avar khaganate administration in the Volga region ~600 AD on...

---------- Post added 2011-10-13 at 13:23 ----------

One interesting fact, the Estonian word for "boat", which is "paat" comes from Proto-Germanic.

We have 'paatti' as well for boat.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-13, 14:24

Very interesting. In Estonian, "Venemaa" is Russia, in Finnish it would be "boatland"? :p

One interesting fact, the Estonian word for "boat", which is "paat" comes from Proto-Germanic. In Swedish/Norwegian, the word for "boat" is "båt" and in Danish it is "båd".

But this makes sense, as Estonians have had historically more connections with the Scandinavians than the Finns, in ancient times.

"Vene" is in same meaning also in Estonian, accoring my Finnish-Estonian dictionary.

First Scandinavian people lived in Finland from the Bronze Age.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-13, 14:30

But this makes sense, as Estonians have had historically more connections with the Scandinavians than the Finns, in ancient times.

This does not make any sense.

JaM

2011-10-13, 14:32

Mordvinians are Aryans who shifted to Finnic language (both Mordva and Erzya are old Iranic words), so their genetic similarity to Russians is not surprising.

You're just trying to prove that Ruskies are Aryans, who gives a fuck?

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-13, 14:39

This does not make any sense.

I am quite sure that "paat" is a very young loan.

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 14:43

Primitive Indo-Iranian? What is that, date?

The Indo-Iranian languages occasionally go by the term "Aryan languages."[1]

Proto-Indo-Iranian is the reconstructed proto-language of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European. Its speakers, the hypothetical Proto-Indo-Iranians, are assumed to have lived in the late 3rd millennium BC, and are usually connected with the early Andronovo archaeological horizon.

Proto-Indo-Iranian was a Satem language, likely removed less than a millennium from the late Proto-Indo-European language, and in turn removed less than a millennium from the Vedic Sanskrit of the Rigveda. It is the ancestor of the Indo-Aryan languages, the Iranian languages, the Dardic languages and the Nuristani languages.

....

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-13, 14:50

"Vene" is in same meaning also in Estonian, accoring my Finnish-Estonian dictionary.

Interesting, I have never heard anyone use the word "vene" while talking about a "paat". But it must exist in the Estonian vocabulary, I guess.

This does not make any sense.

Well it does, as the Scandinavian cultural/economic/military etc. centre was in southern-Scandinavia and Estonia is closer to southern-Scandinavian than Finland.

I was talking about ancient(2000BC-1000AD) things here, not the fact that the Estonians slaughtered the Swedish crusader force in Western-Estonia, while the Finns bowed down to the Swedish crusaders and had 600 years of Swedish rule.

Viking

2011-10-13, 14:53

I was talking about ancient(2000BC-1000AD) things here, not the fact that the Estonians slaughtered the Swedish crusader force in Western-Estonia, while the Finns bowed down to the Swedish crusaders and had 600 years of Swedish rule.

And that's the reason why the Finns are Nordic, while you guys aren't. ;)

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-13, 14:55

Interesting, I have never heard anyone use the word "vene" while talking about a "paat". But it must exist in the Estonian vocabulary, I guess.

Vene (Venäjä, venäläinen in Finnish) is derived by some researchers from Vend. This doesnt mean that Russian were Vends, but some ancient Slavic groups near Estonia was called Vends. Russians are a much younger nation, but they became equated with those earlier Slavs.

Wojewoda

2011-10-13, 15:12

Vene (Venäjä, venäläinen in Finnish) is derived by some researchers from Vend. This doesnt mean that Russian were Vends, but some ancient Slavic groups near Estonia was called Vends. Russians are a much younger nation, but they became equated with those earlier Slavs.

I’ve had enough of your begging! Here, take the word *wen-(e/o-) — this is the only one I can give you! At present nobody really uses it here — this word will emerge only in Sanskrit as vána- and in Avestan as vanā-, without any Indo-European etymology and without any trace of the vowel e. So nobody will now notice it is missing. But I must warn you, this word does not really denote a boat! It is a word for tree, or for wood, or for timber. At best you can refer to a chunk of wood or a wooden vessel, like a bucket or trough, with this name…

So Vends would be "forrest people" (like Drevani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani) for instance) rather than "boat people".

Tuohikirje

2011-10-13, 15:12

Well it does, as the Scandinavian cultural/economic/military etc. centre was in southern-Scandinavia and Estonia is closer to southern-Scandinavian than Finland.

I was talking about ancient(2000BC-1000AD) things here, not the fact that the Estonians slaughtered the Swedish crusader force in Western-Estonia, while the Finns bowed down to the Swedish crusaders and had 600 years of Swedish rule.

Well, we all know that this is bullocks.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-13, 15:18

And that's the reason why the Finns are Nordic, while you guys aren't. ;)

From a geopolitical aspect, definitely. ;)

Well, we all know that this is bullocks.

You think that this is bollocks, while I would like to know that this is bollocks.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-13, 15:18

Vene (Venäjä, venäläinen in Finnish) is derived by some researchers from Vend. This doesnt mean that Russian were Vends, but some ancient Slavic groups near Estonia was called Vends. Russians are a much younger nation, but they became equated with those earlier Slavs.

Wends (group of tribes) is a recent term, vene (boat) loan most likely very old.

500-1000 AD

As a part of the Slavic migrations in the first millennium, splitting the just evolved Slav ethnicity into Southern, Eastern and Western groups, some West Slavs moved into the areas between the Elbe and Oder Rivers from east to west and from south to north. There, they assimilated the remaining Germanic population that had not left the area in the Migration period. Their German neighbors adapted the term they had been using for peoples east of the Elbe River before to the Slavs, calling them Wends as they called the Venedi before and probably the Vandals also.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-13, 15:46

So Vends would be "forrest people" (like Drevani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani) for instance) rather than "boat people".

Slavic world tree http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=slavic+world+tree&oq=slavic+world+tree&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=133597l134238l0l134758l3l3l0l0l0l0l234l618l 0.1.2l3l0

---------- Post added 2011-10-13 at 18:02 ----------

Wends (group of tribes) is a recent term, vene (boat) loan most likely very old.

500-1000 AD

Of course. And my sources dont conect the word vene (boat) to any old IE-language. It probably originates to FU languages.

Jaska

2011-10-13, 23:52

Mordvinians are closer to Slavs than to other FUs, that means Mordvinians are Finnic-speaking IEs.
An absurd claim. All peoples tend to be similar to their long-lasted neighbours. I could as well claim that because Russians are closer to Mordvinians than to Bulgarians, they must be Slavic-speaking Finno-Ugrians.

The conclusion that must be drawn is that at one time the two branches were in close geographical proximity, and that this innovation affecting IEs established itself over a limited area comprising Slavonic and Indo-Iranian, but excluding the rest of Indo-European.
Indeed. For example satemization and RUKI-rule are features which seem to have spread from Aryan to Balto-Slavic.

But this makes sense, as Estonians have had historically more connections with the Scandinavians than the Finns, in ancient times.
Really? Then how it comes that in every single Germanic loanword stratum there are more words in Finnish than in Estonian?

I am quite sure that "paat" is a very young loan.
It indeed is: it comes from Old Swedish baater, which comes from anglosaxon bát, which comes from Proto-Germanic *baitaz, which comes from Proto-Indo-European *bhoidos. This PG word has an inherited cognate in Scandinavic, too: Icelandic beit ‘ship’, but Finnic word cannot be derived from it.
http://runeberg.org/svetym/0164.html

So Vends would be "forrest people" (like Drevani for instance) rather than "boat people".
Ethnonym Wend is not related to that Western Uralic word, if that was what you meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends

The name was borrowed into Proto-Finnic dialects as *venät : *venäδen 'West Slav : (gen.)' > Finnish dialects Venät : Ven(n)ään, Venäjän 'Russia(n)' (--> thence Standard Finnish Venäjä) ~ Estonian Venemaa 'Russia', venelased 'Russians'. The Finnic speakers seem to have had contacts first with the West Slavs and only later with the East Slavs (Russians):
http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Bjornflaten.pdf

Wojewoda

2011-10-14, 05:46

Indeed. For example satemization and RUKI-rule are features which seem to have spread from Aryan to Balto-Slavic.

How can you know the direction of the spread?

Ethnonym Wend is not related to that Western Uralic word, if that was what you meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends

No, I meant that it might be related to the IE root *wen-(e/o-) as mentioned in the fragment quoted:

I’ve had enough of your begging! Here, take the word *wen-(e/o-) — this is the only one I can give you! At present nobody really uses it here — this word will emerge only in Sanskrit as vána- and in Avestan as vanā-, without any Indo-European etymology and without any trace of the vowel e. So nobody will now notice it is missing. But I must warn you, this word does not really denote a boat! It is a word for tree, or for wood, or for timber. At best you can refer to a chunk of wood or a wooden vessel, like a bucket or trough, with this name…

Polako

2011-10-14, 06:16

I've picked up an interesting correlation between R1a1a-Z93+ and R1a1a-Z280+, and two genetic clines/migration waves indicated via autosomal data, one from West Asia and the other from the Southern Baltic (Poland + Eastern Germany), respectively.

I suspect the first is linked to the spread of the Indo-Aryans, and the latter with the Andronovo tribes. I'll post the info in a blog entry this weekend.

The Mordovians are part of the second, Northern, cline. I know they carry R1a1a-M458+, but does anyone know how much R1a1a-Z280+ they have?

Motörhead Remember Me

2011-10-14, 07:16

Interesting, I have never heard anyone use the word "vene" while talking about a "paat". But it must exist in the Estonian vocabulary, I guess.Like Lemmi says, it's a young loan. The difference is that vene is a smaller vessel, old word and paat is a larger ship, young loan word.

Well it does, as the Scandinavian cultural/economic/military etc. centre was in southern-Scandinavia and Estonia is closer to southern-Scandinavian than Finland.

I was talking about ancient(2000BC-1000AD) things here, It's reasonable to assume that Estonians and Finns were more than less the same people (Proto Baltic Finnish peoples) during the earlier part of that time period and as they were "the same people" the foreign loan words would indeed be foreign, not borrowed from the same language...

the fact that the Estonians slaughtered the Swedish crusader force in Western-Estonia, while the Finns bowed down to the Swedish crusaders and had 600 years of Swedish rule. Well, this is a moment of pride for you. Southern Finns were numerically much fewer than Estonians at that time, and new research prove well that constant war campaigns against Novgorod weakened their positions and paved the way for a Svea involvement. There was a local power void to be filled, simply.

Jaska

2011-10-14, 14:54

How can you know the direction of the spread?
It seems that satemization is later in Balto-Slavic than in Aryan:
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art066e.pdf

RUKI-rule in Balto-Slavic is not as wide a phenomenon as in Aryan:
http://www.users.waitrose.com/~candfprescott/ruki.pdf

No, I meant that it might be related to the IE root *wen-(e/o-) as mentioned in the fragment quoted:
Hmm, it may be possible.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 17:53

Really? Then how it comes that in every single Germanic loanword stratum there are more words in Finnish than in Estonian?

600 years of Swedish rule. I was talking about ancient connections.

If Finnish has even more Germanic loanwords than Estonian, then something is wrong. I'll bring an example. Estonian has the same amount (30%) of Germanic vocabulary as the Germanic language, English.

Like Lemmi says, it's a young loan. The difference is that vene is a smaller vessel, old word and paat is a larger ship, young loan word.

For a ship we use the word "laev", it's "laiva" in Finnish.

I looked up the definition of the word "vene" and it means "a boat made of a single tree trunk".

It's reasonable to assume that Estonians and Finns were more than less the same people (Proto Baltic Finnish peoples) during the earlier part of that time period and as they were "the same people" the foreign loan words would indeed be foreign, not borrowed from the same language...

Yes, back then we were the same people.

Well, this is a moment of pride for you. Southern Finns were numerically much fewer than Estonians at that time, and new research prove well that constant war campaigns against Novgorod weakened their positions and paved the way for a Svea involvement. There was a local power void to be filled, simply.

Indeed, if Estonians want to find something remarkable in their history, then we have to look at the pre-1227 period or the 1918-1920 period.

Estonians were feared people back then. King Valdemar II of Denmark sailed to Saaremaa around ~1206, to avenge a very devastating Estonian viking attack on Denmark a few years earlier. He built a fort to subdue the Estonian vikings, but not a single Danish warrior was brave enough to stay in it, thus it was burned down and King Valdemar II sailed back with his army. There are many more examples of Estonian "pwnage".

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-14, 18:14

600 years of Swedish rule. I was talking about ancient connections.

If Finnish has even more Germanic loanwords than Estonian, then something is wrong. I'll bring an example. Estonian has the same amount (30%) of Germanic vocabulary as the Germanic language, English.

We were talking about ancient Germanic loans, not about medieval or later German or Swedish ones. Finns have more them and I suppose that it is true because the Estonian language evolved from more eastern dialect than Finnish-Tavastian language, this is however only my guess now.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 18:19

We were talking about ancient Germanic loans, not about medieval or later German or Swedish ones.

so was I. :p

Anyway, you win, Finns are Scandinavians. I know that this is a touchy subject for the Finns.

Tuohikirje

2011-10-14, 18:27

The heaviest external contribution, nearly one third of the vocabulary, comes from Germanic languages, mainly from Low Saxon (Middle Low German) during the period of German rule , and High German (including standard German). The percentage of Low Saxon and High German loanwords can be estimated at 22–25 percent, with Low Saxon making up about 15 percent.

Is this correct, Põhjamaalane. Ancient?

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 18:28

Finns have more them and I suppose that it is true because the Estonian language evolved from more eastern dialect than Finnish-Tavastian language, this is hiwever only my guess now.

Oh really? As far as I know, Estonian is practically the only southern-Finnic language, as other southern-Finnic languages are extinct or almost extinct.

1. Proto-Finnic probably arose somewhere in Southern-Estonia.

2. The ancestors of the Finns had to go eastwards at first, to get to Finland.

3. What's Eastern-Finnic?

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 20:30 ----------

Is this correct, Põhjamaalane. Ancient?

1. Estonian has more ancient Germanic loans than Finnish, because of its greater proximity to the Proto-Germanic region.

2. Most of the Germanic loanwords, in the Estonian language, come from Low-Saxon.

3. Yes your quote is correct.

Artūrs

2011-10-14, 18:35

For a ship we use the word "laev", it's "laiva" in Finnish.

The Finnish word for ship is exactly the same as the Latvian word for boat. Must be those Livonian linguistic influences showing.

takoja

2011-10-14, 18:37

Karl we get it allready ancient Estonians did not want to have anything to do with Scandinavians. They fought them with all their mighty Estonian force to stay away from them. Which makes me all the more wonder why you are so obsessed about them.

Karl the reason why we are ahead of you in everything is this. 70 years ago my people fought, yours didn't. We said fuck you, this is Sparta, we fight. You didn't. You get it. It has nothing to do with noordicness, Swedes or anyone else.

Good god sometimes I feel everybody in this world except The Finns are absolutely clueless, batshit crazy, out of their mind.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 18:39

The Finnish word for ship is exactly the same as the Latvian word for boat. Must be those Livonian linguistic influences showing.

Yes, you Baltic invaders have many loanwords from the native inhabitants of your countries.

The Lithuanian word for "ship" also comes from Finnic.

Artūrs

2011-10-14, 18:50

Yes, you Baltic invaders have many loanwords from the native inhabitants of your countries.

The Lithuanian word for "ship" also comes from Finnic.

I wonder how come those ancient-Finnics managed to survive Danish and Swedish invaders, while the Balts were clearly no match for them.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 18:52

Karl we get it allready ancient Estonians did not want to have anything to do with Scandinavians. They fought them with all their mighty Estonian force to stay away from them. Which makes me all the more wonder why you are so obsessed about them.

Well, Scandinavians used to live here and even rule us, considering the Proto-Germanic loanwords get from them "kuningas" etc.

The Nordic bronze age included Estonia.

Finnic people weren't as developed as they were, but the Estonians managed to gain the upper-hand and didn't have to bow down to any invaders for some time and invaded the Scandinavians instead. The Finns weren't so successful.

Karl the reason why we are ahead of you in everything is this.

Ahead in what, exactly? The only that comes to my mind, is that Estonia stopped being richer than Finland after WW2.

70 years ago my people fought, yours didn't. We said fuck you, this is Sparta, we fight. You didn't. You get it. It has nothing to do with noordicness, Swedes or anyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#Soviet_invasion_and_occupation

I will use the argument, which has been used many times during the last pages.

The Estonians weren't as numerous as the Finns, thus they were occupied by the Soviets. Like in ancient times, the Finns weren't as numerous as the Estonians and were subdued to Swedish rule.

Denmark didn't fight against a German invasion, but Norway did, for the same reasons.

Good god sometimes I feel everybody in this world except The Finns are absolutely clueless, batshit crazy, out of their mind.

In most cases they are. In many minds, Finns are slant-eyed, black-haired semi-Mongol people living next to über-European Swedes. That's rather ridiculous.

Once in Stromfront, some American talked about Finns being all "jet-black haired" and the darkest Europeans. No wonder that I have made about 40 posts in that forum in the past 6 years. :lol:

Everyone are retarded, this is the golden rule.

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 20:54 ----------

I wonder how come those ancient-Finnics managed to survive Danish and Swedish invaders, while the Balts were clearly no match for them.

Population migrations are something completely different from military invasions.

If the entire population of Denmark migrated to Estonia in 1250, then we would have been rather fucked. But no, only priests, rulers and traders came here.

The Balts migrated to their modern-area, with their entire population.

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-14, 19:05

Anyway, you win, Finns are Scandinavians. I know that this is a touchy subject for the Finns.

I dont feel like a winner. This is only a geopolitical question. Finns know it well and could have much to say about it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 21:10 ----------

Oh really? As far as I know, Estonian is practically the only southern-Finnic language, as other southern-Finnic languages are extinct or almost extinct.

1. Proto-Finnic probably arose somewhere in Southern-Estonia.

true

2. The ancestors of the Finns had to go eastwards at first, to get to Finland.

not true, because also Scandinvians were able to come over the sea. Why not other people?

3. What's Eastern-Finnic?[COLOR="Silver"]

.

Eastern Finnic people were more eastern than western Finnic people. Like Eastern Balts were more eastern.

Põhjamaalane

2011-10-14, 19:16

I dont feel like a winner. This is only a geopolitical question. Finns know it well and could have much to say about it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 21:10 ----------

true

not true, because also Scandinvians were able to come over the sea. Why not other people?

Are you saying that the ancestors of the Finns crossed the 80km wide Finnish gulf, in "vene" boats? :p

Eastern Finnic people were more eastern than western Finnic people. Like Eastern Balts were more eastern.

Well, if you go more west from Estonia, you'll end up in the sea. I can't see how imagine how any Finnic language or population can be more western. The Veps come to my mind, when I think of something "eastern-Finnic".

Lemminkäinen

2011-10-14, 19:18

The Finnish word for ship is exactly the same as the Latvian word for boat. Must be those Livonian linguistic influences showing.

I thnk so, though this is a very disputed question, and a bit also political because the theory was popular during the ultranationalistic era. Finnish researchers talk about the origin of Finns very silently and dont want to disturb their neighbors :)

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 21:28 ----------

Are you saying that the ancestors of the Finns crossed the 80km wide Finnish gulf, in "vene" boats? :p

When Scandinavians did it, it was possible. Estonians can do it also. Two Estonians came to Finland by a small boat during the 80's. Aleks Lepajoe and Raivo Roosna :p

Well, if you go more west from Estonia, you'll end up in the sea. I can't see how imagine how any Finnic language or population can be more western. The Veps come to my mind, when I think of something "eastern-Finnic".

It is hard to you understand, because you have wrong ideas. There was no Estonia at that time, only western, southern and eastern tribes who spoke pre-estonian dialects.