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Lemba
2011-11-22, 13:59
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111014/full/news.2011.592.html

Interesting, seems they are working reconstructing the Taino Genome through isolating the Native admixture in puertoricans. I wonder if when thsi is finished and compared against Carribeans will it increase the native admixture %.

Maroon King
2011-11-22, 14:17
Wow, a lot of Taino people came out on the comments for this article. Where do the 20,000 Taino live today?



Very interesting but inaccurate article.

I am a Taino spiritual leader and elder. Last I heard, my People number at least 20,000 strong. We practice our ways, we speak our language, and we learn from and teach each other in the spirit of our ancestors.

We Taino have absolutely no intention whatsoever of suddenly becoming "extinct" - just because Nature magazine and uneducated "scientists" proclaim us so. Western science has often been wrong before. And publishing something doesn't make it so.

Indigenous people's right to self determination includes the privilege of deciding for ourselves who we are.

Luckily, we know who we are. We do not need permission or a genetic pedigree from Western science to walk the sacred path of our ancestors on the altar of Bibi Atabey (Mother Earth).

Taino lineage is passed through the female line. I can document an unbroken genetic lineage of Taino female ancestors: from as far back as possble through my mother to me. So I am an absolutely real Taino – as real as I could possibly be.

You must remember that our Native American indigenous ways are not the ways of Western civilization. We do not require "blood quantums" on the Red Road. As a traditional Hopi elder and clan leader once said to me: "In our way, even if you had just one drop of Native blood, you belong to us. You are ours."

Western science is a glorious – but flawed and racist – mythology.

In the spirit of my ancestors,
Windsong
--
Dr. Christina Wind Walker Bautista MD (MA)

dbbrainer
2011-11-22, 14:26
I wonder how Taino she really is. Regardless, it is a very interesting that we shall keep watch of.


I wonder if when thsi is finished and compared against Carribeans will it increase the native admixture %.

What do you mean by this?

Maroon King
2011-11-22, 14:31
I see there's disagreement on the island and among the PR population when it comes to self-identification.


In accordance with policy, I submit a less polemic response to the huge amount of posters on this page. The Taino revival movement is a well-organized but completely non-anthropologically sound movement. It is predicated upon typical Puerto Ricans, or boricuas, as we call ourselves, who feel an urgency to make a connection with their distant DNA from the 1600s, even though we are mostly of black and white descent. These activist groups also indoctrinate their children to believe they are something else than typical Puerto Ricans. There are no Tainos. Pretending to be Taino is as credible as a typical Puerto Rican claiming to be a Spaniard. Choose an ancestry or just be happy being a BORICUA. There is no legal tribal continuity, so this is an exercise in futility. According to you guys, our entire island is "taino," but of course you guys are better than the rest of us. Especially considering that we Puerto Ricans (outside the the whites in San Juan) are far more West African in descent and culture. Your movement is despicable and really represents an embarassment to this island. Just stop and content yourselves with being puertorriquenos. Y deja de decirles a los nenes que son "tainos."

dbbrainer
2011-11-22, 14:41
There are no Tainos. Pretending to be Taino is as credible as a typical Puerto Rican claiming to be a Spaniard. Choose an ancestry or just be happy being a BORICUA. There is no legal tribal continuity, so this is an exercise in futility. According to you guys, our entire island is "taino," but of course you guys are better than the rest of us. Especially considering that we Puerto Ricans (outside the the whites in San Juan) are far more West African in descent and culture. Your movement is despicable and really represents an embarassment to this island. Just stop and content yourselves with being puertorriquenos. Y deja de decirles a los nenes que son "tainos."

Well he does have a point. Dont you think? I feel P.R. not anything else. Why feel Taino when genotypically it can be a P.R's most irrelevant genetic component. I am no afro centrists but sometimes this discourse is used by anti afro P.R's to deny their POSSIBLE afro heritage.

Maroon King
2011-11-22, 14:44
Well he does have a point. Dont you think? I feel P.R. not anything else. Why feel Taino when genotypically it can be a P.R's most irrelevant genetic component. I am no afro centrists but sometimes this discourse is used by anti afro P.R's to deny their POSSIBLE afro heritage.

Well they are culturally and spiritually connected to that ancestry. The Americas have people of all genetic percentages and they often don't coincide culturally with those percentages. Also, people are not going to change who they are culturally/ethnically based off the results of an autosomal DNA test. I actually think it's cool some PRs are into their Native heritage, unlike the millions of Central and South Americans who are over 25% Native and do nothing but degrade, dismiss, discriminate and desecrate it.

dbbrainer
2011-11-22, 14:46
Also the Whites are all over not just in San Juan and Guaynabo.

To be fair I think mainstream P.R.'s are just like me 1/4 afro indigenous the rest Med/Canarian/sizeable MENA more than the Afro Indigenous put together. So why why why assume an identity based on something we are not? why not assume a MENA identity or Canarian or Afro from Africa and pray to chango? why? why not be just P.R.? It seems silly to me.

---------- Post added 2011-11-22 at 10:49 ----------


I actually think it's cool some PRs are into their Native heritage, unlike the millions of Central and South Americans who are over 25% Native and do nothing but degrade, dismiss, discriminate and desecrate it.

Well that's sickening. However, you dont have to dismiss anyone of your heritage or prefer one over the other you/we have to embrace it all as part of our history and heritage and feel like we are what we are which is something else. IDK it might be cool to you and I understand it but to me it still is a form of denial which goes hand in hand with the romanticism of just one part of your/their/our heritage.

Maroon King
2011-11-22, 14:51
Also the Whites are all over not just in San Juan and Guaynabo.

To be fair I think mainstream P.R.'s are just like me 1/4 afro indigenous the rest Med/Canarian/sizeable MENA more than the Afro Indigenous put together. So why why why assume an identity based on something we are not? why not assume a MENA identity or Canarian or Afro from Africa and pray to chango? why? why not be just P.R.? It seems silly to me.

I seen PRs who do pray to Shango. I also seen PRs who are very pro-Spanish culturally so there are all types. My aunt is like many PRs, a pro-triethnicist. She believes we are the best "race" cause of having Afrikan, Euro and Indigenous. She gave me her ideas on why I shouldn't be with a woman whose just white, or just black or just Indigenous. She pointed out their negatives from her opinion :lol: I'm not going to get into that right now, but everyone assumes their ancestry differently. My uncle says he's an Indigenous man from Ecuador, etc. They have different identities because they have different phenotypes, and based off those social experiences due to how they look, they assume and identify with their ancestry differently.

moonlight
2011-11-22, 14:52
I agree, to me some of those people are just tainos wannabe. I would love to know my maternal family native admixture , but just for historical reasons,(I think they are one of the few people in the island with considerable taino admixture), not to encourage them to adopt another identity.

dbbrainer
2011-11-22, 14:56
I understand that MK. What I dont understand is how people negate their other ancestry and choose one over the other. I feel more culturally related to the Canary Islands, my autosomal results proved I am a descendant of Guanches I am even 25% Mena and although I respect other peoples worldviews and personal modes of identification, I think, that on a personal level it would be stupid for me to say I am a Canarian because allthough 3/4 of me are I am something else. Autosomal results should not dictate your identity but they are a reality check.

---------- Post added 2011-11-22 at 10:57 ----------


I seen PRs who do pray to Shango.

And Cubans even more often than P.R.'s but they are rare in both cases.

Maroon King
2011-11-22, 15:12
I understand that MK. What I dont understand is how people negate their other ancestry and choose one over the other. I feel more culturally related to the Canary Islands, my autosomal results proved I am a descendant of Guanches I am even 25% Mena and although I respect other peoples worldviews and personal modes of identification, I think, that on a personal level it would be stupid for me to say I am a Canarian because allthough 3/4 of me are I am something else. Autosomal results should not dictate your identity but they are a reality check.

---------- Post added 2011-11-22 at 10:57 ----------



And Cubans even more often than P.R.'s but they are rare in both cases.

Well some people don't even know of that other ancestry because their parents and grandparents never told them. My father didn't know he was that Native, basically 1/4th. Many Aframs don't know about being 1/4th to 1/2th European. It is very rare for anyone to identify with all their ancestries. Even Europeans do not identify with all of their ethnic European ancestries. My aunt's husband is Swiss and has German ancestry but never identifies with it and has a strong distaste against Germans. Just because you have all these ancestries, doesn't mean you'd be able to love all of them. Most people choose sides because they know one did another one wrong. My Afram friend has Black Seminole heritage but he doesn't really recognize that because he got it through Seminoles enslaving his African ancestry. Those are reasons why people choose one over the other.

dbbrainer
2011-11-22, 15:15
I understand what you mean it is just not fitting for a Puertorican that would divide people not unite us. We are all Puertoricans not anythingelse. IF they choose to idenitfy as such it's al good but they would get reality checks left and right among P.R.'s who are down to earth if you know what I mean.

EliasAlucard
2012-09-03, 15:17
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111014/full/news.2011.592.html

Interesting, seems they are working reconstructing the Taino Genome through isolating the Native admixture in puertoricans. I wonder if when thsi is finished and compared against Carribeans will it increase the native admixture %.Very interesting!

I think this is the future for extinct ancient groups. I was playing around with the idea of genetically reconstructing the proto-Indo-Europeans through a combination of aDNA and admixture components from modern Indo-European speakers in Asia and Europe, by looking at the common genetic components that can be found in both Asia and Europe (similar to how trained Indo-Europeanists reconstruct the proto-Indo-European language, but with genetics instead of words).

So it's fun to see that they're working on a similar project in the Americas. Any idea of this project's fruits lately?

OT deleted.

//mod

BVTHSVLTS
2012-09-07, 05:38
I wonder if Tainos are more, or less, "Paleoindian" (Pericu-oid) than mainland natives.

jibarodepr
2012-09-07, 11:02
I wonder if Tainos are more, or less, "Paleoindian" (Pericu-oid) than mainland natives.They resembled Amazonian Natives the most, as they came form South America to the caribbean, and despite they crossed with the archaic tribes who came from Central America, they retained they South American Native look.

EliasAlucard
2018-02-07, 02:22
How did it go with this project?