Finland Rewards WWII Foreign Volunteers

[Põhjamaalane]

Finland Rewards WWII Foreign Volunteers (http://news.err.ee/politics/4e64b995-a19c-41ca-b0fe-056cff51d7e9)


http://ext.err.ee/imgen2.aspx?mode=5&id=4e64b995-a19c-41ca-b0fe-056cff51d7e9
The monument in Luumäki, Finland, commemorating Finnish army's foreign volunteers
( Photo: Postimees/Scanpix )

Finnish government will make a 540-euro one-off donation to the foreign volunteers who during World War II fought against the Red Army in the ranks of the Finnish armed forces.

The volunteers, many of whom were Estonians, were called Soomepoisid (Finnish lads) and were part of the Finnish Infantry Regiment 200.

In total, 3,500 Estonians joined the Finnish armed forces in World War II in order to avoid mobilization by Nazi Germany.

According to the Finnish government, around 150 former volunteers are currently alive. Besides Estonians, the list includes Ingrian Finns and Karelians, YLE reported.

Finnish authorities will accept applications for the payout through the end of 2012.

The Estonian contribution to Finland during world war 2 was about as big as the Finnish contribution to Estonia in the Estonian Independence War. :)

[Idriz]

Will the surviving Swedish volunteers also be rewarded?

[mr. john]

It is impressive how Finland managed to hold back Soviet. Very impressive. Finland has my respect and let's not forget about Simo Häyhä. He deserved more than just medals.

[Põhjamaalane]

Will the surviving Swedish volunteers also be rewarded?

Yes they will, but the majority of the volunteers were Estonians. I don't know if there's any surviving Swedish volunteers.

[Idriz]

Yes they will, but the majority of the volunteers were Estonians. I don't know if there's any surviving Swedish volunteers.


The Swedish Volunteer Corps (Svenska Frivilligkåren) during the Winter War numbered 9,640. Sweden was officially non-belligerent, however not neutral, during the course of the war so only volunteers could be used by Finland. The volunteers were in the front lines in northern Salla area starting on February 28, 1940. Losses included 28 dead, 50 wounded and 140 disabled due to frostbite. There were 25 planes in the Swedish Voluntary Air Force (Winter War), F19. The Swedish volunteers also defended Turku with an anti-aircraft battery.
8,402 Swedes, along with 1,010 Danes and 895 Norwegians fought together with the Finns. The volunteers demonstrated a strong Nordic unity that was symbolized in their insignia of the "four brother hands", representing Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Volunteer_Corps_(Winter_War)

[Lemminkäinen]

Will the surviving Swedish volunteers also be rewarded?

I dont know, but hope so because every man and woman beeing there merited personally. Estonians, Ingrians and Karelians were however long behind the iron curtain, so I suppose that Swedish veterans have been rewarded earlier. It is so little time left to remember them.

[mr. john]

Didn't Danes and Hungarians join the Finnish army as well?

[Põhjamaalane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Volunteer_Corps_(Winter_War)

Looks like I was wrong.


It's quite interesting though. In the Estonian independence war, Finns, Swedes and Danes came to Estonia to be volunteers. In WW2, Estonians, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians went to Finland. There's indeed an unity of some sorts between all of us.

[Tuohikirje]

Looks like I was wrong.


It's quite interesting though. In the Estonian independence war, Finns, Swedes and Danes came to Estonia to be volunteers. In WW2, Estonians, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians went to Finland. There's indeed an unity of some sorts between all of us.

No, you were not wrong.

In Winter War there were most Swedes by nationality (I believe many with ties/ancestry to Finland) and they made it to battle in the North e.g. at the end of the conflict. Finnish troops were released to Karelian Isthmus from the North.

In Continuation War there were most Estonians (Estonians 3273, Swedes 1694, Ingrians 777, Danes 204). Not all Finnics were registered officially, they were many who came across border with their own permission.

Tens of thousands of Swedish speakers from the coastal areas fled to Sweden, low moral according to %/population in those areas.

We made it without cowards and with the help of some volunteers though.

[Pallantides]

There's indeed an unity of some sorts between all of us.

:lol:

[Idriz]

No, you were not wrong.

In Winter War there were most Swedes by nationality (I believe many with ties/ancestry to Finland) and they made it to battle in the North e.g. at the end of the conflict. Finnish troops were released to Karelian Isthmus from the North.
Most of them were nationalists. Some of them might have Finnish ancestry and therefore wanted to help Finland, but most were nationalists who wanted to fight for their brother in east.

Names of the fallen Swedes:

Andersson, Bernt Einar, diversearbetare, 13.3.1940
Brandin, Bror Atle, skogsarbetare, 13.3.1940
Carlsson, Per-Gustaf, telefonlinjearbetare, 2.3.1940
Cederborg, Knut Gustaf Ragnar, kontorist, 13.3.1940
Dyrssen, Magnus Peder Wilhelm, överstelöjtnant, 1.3.1940
Eriksson, Filip Eskil Wolger, djurskötare, 13.3.1940
Gustafsson, Gustaf Wilhelm, textilarbetare, 13.3.1940
Hildinger, Sten Åke, maskinbyggnadsingenjör, 10.3.1940
Hjukström, Evald Ossian, grovarbetare, 2.3.1940
Holmström, Leo, (försvunnen)
Hörnfeldt, Nils Johan, chaufför, 14.3.1940
Hörnqvist, Gunar Ingemar, furir, 2.3.1940
Jansson, Bror Sixten Valdemar, distriktschef, 2.3.1940
Johansson, Erik Harald, kalkarbetare, 13.3.1940
Johansson, Johan Linus Viktorius, gruvarbetare, 2.3.1940
Johansson, Karl Jonas Adolf, skogsarbetare, 2.3.1940
Jonsson, Anders, byggnadsingenjör, 12.3.1940
Lindegren, Anders Hugo, typgraf, 13.3.1940
Månsson, Gösta Georg, kommunalarbetare, 8.3.1940
Palm, Knut Algot, byggnadsarbetare, 2.3.1940
Persson, Helmer Ove Albin, lantbruksbiträde, 24.2.1940
Roth, Carl Willy, kontorist, 12.3.1940
Sjödin, Sven Adolf, journalist och reklamtecknare, 24.2.1940
Sjöquist, Johan Magnus, officerskadett, 23.1.1940
Svensson, Knut Evert, jordbruksarbetare, 29.2.1940
Svensson, Olle Karl August, handelsbiträde, 13.3.1940
Svensson-Myhr, Olof, skogsarbetare, 2.3.1940
Thegerström, Jan Henrik, tekniskt studerande, 8.3.1940
Wallman, Helge Bernhard, betonggjutare, 2.3.1940
Wernstedt, Melcher Wase Bo Gustaf, löjtnant, 7.3.1940
Wibble, Per Arne, studerande, 1.3.1940
Winlöf, Carl-Erik, timmerman, 7.3.1940
Zachau, Anders Robert, jägmästare, 12.1.1940
Öjstad, Torbjörn, juris studerande, 2.3.1940
No Finnish surnames, but many of German origin.

[Viking]

Most of them were nationalists. Some of them might have Finnish ancestry and therefore wanted to help Finland, but most were nationalists who wanted to fight for their brother in east.

Names of the fallen Swedes:

No Finnish surnames, but many of German origin.

I believe the most "famous" volunteer, Gösta Hallberg-Cuula, was Finnish.

[Tuohikirje]

No Finnish surnames, but many of German origin.

True, but you cannot tell of surname or name alone.
Gammelgård, Swedish or Finnish?

[Idriz]

I believe the most "famous" volunteer, Gösta Hallberg-Cuula, was Finnish.
Yes, he was Finnish. But I doubt that there were many Finns f.e. among the 538 volunteers from Malmöhus län. And Hallberg-Cuula was also a nationalist.

[Tuohikirje]

Foreign volunteers in the Winter War

by Tapani Kossila



Swedish volunteers

Swedes were the largest single nationality group. Around 8000 men served in different formations. The most important formation was the Swedish Volunteer Corps (Svenska Frivilligkåren) with three battalions and other units. The Volunteer Corps was formed in Finland, since the Swedish government felt they could not send volunteers over as a unit. In spite of this, it was made easy for active officers to get leave for volunteering in Finland. This policy suited well for the Swedish government since it would remain officially neutral but the general opinion willing to help Finland would also be taken to account. The Corps' commander was General Lieutenant Linder, a Swedish general born in Finland. General Linder, all three battalion commanders of the Corps and some other senior officers had experience from war in Finland after having fought as volunteers in 1918 in the Finnish Civil War.

The Volunteer Corps took over the front-line in the northern part of the front in Salla area on February 28th 1940 and thus saw two weeks of action. Since this part of the front was quiet the Swedes were given purely defensive orders. Losses for the Corps were 28 KIA, ca. 50 wounded and 140 with frostbite.

Another unit was the Flight Regiment 19 (Lentorykmentti 19, LeR19; 19. flygflottilj, F19). This unit flew with aircraft from the Swedish Air Force: Gladiators, Harts, Bulldogs and others. Altogether there were 25 planes. The unit was stationed in the north of Finland with the task of protecting the largest towns and communications network in the area. There were also Swedish anti-aircraft units in the area.

Apart from the Volunteer Corps and LeR 19 there were Swedes in an anti-aircraft unit defending the city of Turku, coastal artillery units, navy, field artillery and in a construction unit with the task of building fortifications.

After the war the Corps and other Swedes returned back home. In 1941, when the Finns were again in war against Soviet Union some of these men volunteered again to Finland.

[Idriz]

Foreign volunteers in the Winter War

by Tapani Kossila
Yes, a Finland Swedish commander with experience from the Finnish military. How inconvenient! :rolleyes:

[Põhjamaalane]

:lol:

You're probably one of those typical unintelligent and ignorant Scandinavians who think that Estonia is part of Russia. My friend Ingvar used to work in Sweden and in 2004 he met a Swede who sincerely thought that Estonia is a province of Russia and Tallinn is somewhere near Moscow.

An Estonian-Swede from Haapsalu sailed around the coast of Sweden last year and many people didn't recognize the Estonian flag on his boat. 2 Swedish girls even thought that it's from some African country.

Ignorance is rampant 300km westwards.

50 years of occupation doesn't change the history predating it.

You practically spit on the memory of volunteers who fought in the Estonian independence war or at the memory of Estonians fighting in the Finnish continuation war.

[Pallantides]

You're probably one of those typical unintelligent and ignorant Scandinavians who think that Estonia is part of Russia. My friend Ingvar used to work in Sweden and in 2004 he met a Swede who sincerely thought that Estonia is a province of Russia and Tallinn is somewhere near Moscow.

Nice of you putting words in my mouth, I know for well that Estonia is an independent nation, so do majority of Scandinavians... but most simply don't care that much.


Majority of Norwegians feel very little unity with Estonians(at least not any more than with any other European nation), I'm sure it's simillar for Swedes and Danes.

[Danielion]

Most Scandinavians, do they care for other Scandinavian countries for that matter? :p

[Janos]

Maybe Swedes feel the same way for Estonia as Americans feel for the rest of the world. That it's insignifcant and therefore pretty unknown?

[Pallantides]

Most Scandinavians, do they care for other Scandinavian countries for that matter? :p

In Norway we do view Sweden and Denmark as brother nations.

[Janos]

In Norway we do view Sweden and Denmark as brother nations.

I view America as brother nation:evilgrin:

[Viking]

Most Scandinavians, do they care for other Scandinavian countries for that matter? :p

Here in Sweden, it's normally "Norwegians are our brethren, whether we like it or not". :p

[Danielion]

In Norway we do view Sweden and Denmark as brother nations.

Healthy view I think.

[Pallantides]

Maybe Swedes feel the same way for Estonia as Americans feel for the rest of the world. That it's insignifcant and therefore pretty unknown?

Nå kommer Karl till og ramse opp hele den historien om Estiske vikinger som brant ned Sigtuna :lol:

[Idriz]

Most Scandinavians, do they care for other Scandinavian countries for that matter? :p
Yes. They're our brothers and many Swedes is working in either Norway or Denmark.

---------- Post added 2011-12-25 at 20:52 ----------


Nå kommer Karl till og ramse opp hele den historien om Estiske vikinger som brant ned Sigtuna :lol:
Or he will post some old anthropology study of Estonians and claim that they're the blondest, most blue-eyed and tallest nation on earth.

[Danielion]

And Finland happens to be the 'thick border with Russia'? I know Norway also borders with Russia in the Middle of Nowhere, but that doesn't count. Belgium is also being referred to as 'the thick border between France and the Netherlands'. Bah. ;)

[Janos]

It's nothing wrong how Karl brag about Estonia improving. They seem after all to be the ex-soviet republic that are doing best.

Asking something is always good even if it sounds ignorant.

Heard about some american asking a Norwegian if the Vikings lived in reservations in Norway:lol:

[Pallantides]

Norway also border with Russia in the Middle of Nowhere, but that doesn't count.

Historically that area have mostly been inhabited by Saami and Kven(Finnish people).

[Lemminkäinen]

Nå kommer Karl till og ramse opp hele den historien om Estiske vikinger som brant ned Sigtuna :lol:

But Karelians, not Estonians, captured the door of Sigtuna church. Dont forget that :) If they were Estonians, the door would still be in Tallinn.



The most impressive building in Novgorod for me was St Sophia's Cathedral. It was built from 1045 to 1050 by Prince Vladimir, the son of Yaroslav the Wise. This is probably the oldest building in Russia. It is located within the Kremlin walls. A door at the entrance to the church is called the Sigtuna Gate. It is from the mid-12th century; according to legend, it was captured from the Swedish town of Sigtuna in 1187. It was made in the German town of Magdeburg. The two leaves are decorated with biblical and evangelical scenes in cast bronze relief. It is exceptionally beautiful. Compared with that door, the frescoes on the church are really young, they date only from the 19th century.

[Viking]

I would say that all (other) Nordic countries are regarded as more or less "brethren" here. There is free immigration within all the countries for the reason that they are all historically and culturally unified.

In some aspects, Finland has more in common with Sweden and Norway than Denmark does. For instance, the Danes don't seem to be as fond of winter sports as the Norwegians, Swedes and Finns. :p

[Danielion]

The open borders of today are more or less a second Kalmar Union, but without much political intermeddling. Personally I think too many people are psychologically restricted to their respective national border (apart from some Americanisation) where I live, that's why I got curious.

Anyway, I don't think it's strange for people from the Baltics to be aimed toward Scandinavian countries. That it's less vice versa, so be it I guess.

[Janos]

I would say that all (other) Nordic countries are regarded as more or less "brethren" here. There is free immigration within all the countries for the reason that they are all historically and culturally unified.

In some aspects, Finland has more in common with Sweden and Norway than Denmark does. For instance, the Danes don't seem to be as fond of winter sports as the Norwegians, Swedes and Finns. :p

Danes are the only nordic people who can buy alcohol in shops.

[Unome]

Heard about some american asking a Norwegian if the Vikings lived in reservations in Norway:lol:
I would have asked if Norwegians are living in reservations in Vikingland. ;)

[Danielion]

Danes are the only nordic people who can buy alcohol in shops.

Swedes and Norwegians have to homebrew in other words?

P.S.: I've again helped derail this thread. Ah well... often am too lazy making my own threads, it's really that.

[Põhjamaalane]

Nå kommer Karl till og ramse opp hele den historien om Estiske vikinger som brant ned Sigtuna :lol:

I don't find Swedes being slaughtered and their most important city burned to ashes being funny. Looks like we have a different sense of humor.

Anyway, I wouldn't have mentioned it, if Lemminkäinen wouldn't have posted false information here.



Or he will post some old anthropology study of Estonians and claim that they're the blondest, most blue-eyed and tallest nation on earth.

Finnic people are the blondest Europeans, but who gives a fuck?

I'm the blondest male member of ABF, but how is this related to anything?

Troll, GTFO with your anthropology bullshit. We do not live in Nazi Germany.


But Karelians, not Estonians, captured the door of Sigtuna church. Dont forget that :) If they were Estonians, the door would still be in Tallinn.

:| Are you playing a joke or not?

I have proved everyone to be wrong at least on 5 occasions.

All historians, except Russian ones, say that the Estonians did it. It has been proved in the 20th century and the fact that the Estonians were responsible, is carved in stone.

This Swedish PDF is from the official Sigtuna museum homepage (http://humantrust.net/geturl2.cgi?ext=application%2Fpdf&ref=0.0957839889451861&username=&hitspace=sigtunamuseum.se&ticket=&url=public%2FPdf%2FHistoria%20och%20arkeologi%2FHe in2007X.pdf)

Short English summary:

First, here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

On the other hand, we have several contemporary accounts of Estonian pirate activity in Scandinavia: ravishing Öland in 1170 with the Curonians (Saxo Grammaticus), raiding Listerby in 1203 (Heinrici Chronicon Livoniae), looting on the Swedish coast in 1226 (the same). What's more, both Eric's chronicle and Olaus Petri relate about an earl named Jon who got killed by the same pagans (Estonians according to Olaus) on Lake Mälaren. Jon's widow is then said to have gathered folk and slaughtered the enemies on "a hill that is called eesta skär ('Estonians' islet')". The islet is today known as Estbröte.

If you want more specific details, then please read all these:

Noter
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på förlaget Eesti Raamat 2000, med
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och överraska fienden, liknar en episod från
Konstantiopels belägring 1453. Där släpade
de anfallande turkarna sina fartyg upp över
den branta Perahalvön och ner in i det av bysantinarna
spärrade Gyllene Hornet. S. Runciman,
The Fall of Constantinople 1453.
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(Mjölby 14 juni 2007) har A. Mälk (jämte
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berörts av den 18-årige E. Bornhöhes dramatiska
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Staden skulle sålunda ha blivit nerbränd;
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s. 47 et seq: ”...Sictuna combusta...”; Chronologia
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116
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Livoniae (cit. HCL): Heinrichs livländische
Chronik, 2. Aufl. Ed. L. Arbusow, A. Bauer.
Hannover 1955; Henriku Liivimaa kroonika.
Ed. J. Mägiste. Stockholm 1962; Henriku
Liivimaa kroonika. Ed. R. Kleis, E. Tarvel.
Tallinn 1982, XXIII:2 och XXIV:3.
36) HCL XXIV:3.
37) Laurentius Petri, Chronica svecana. SRS
II:2, s. 3 et seq.
38) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 71;
S. Högberg, Stockholms historia 1. Stockholm
1981, s. 10 ff.
39) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 71; C. J.
Gardberg och E .B.Lundberg, Art. ”Kastal”.
I: Kulturhistorisk leksikon för nordisk middelalder
(cit. KLNM). Bd VIII. København
1963, sp. 323 ff.; J. Wienberg, Fortresses,
Storehouses and Symbols – ambiguous
churches of the Baltic Sea. I: Der Ostseeraum
und Kontinentaleuropa 1100–1600.
CCC VIII. Schwerin 2004, s. 35 f.
40) Wienberg, a.a., s. 42.
41) N. P. Vigeland, T. I. Itkonen, Art.”Båt“. I:
KLMN, Bd II. København 1957, sp. 467 ff.
42) The Chronicle of Novgorod 1016–1471.
Camden Third Series, vol. XXV. London
1914, s. 256.
43) Njals, Egil Skallagrimsons och den redan
nämnde Olav Tryggvassons sagor.
HAIN REBAS
44) Saxo Grammaticus, Gesta danorum/Taanlaste
vägiteod. Tallinn 2000. s. 163 f.
45) M. Mägi, At the crossroads of space and
time. Graves, changing society and ideology
on Saaremaa (Ösel), 9th–13th century. Tallinn
2002; N. Blomkvist i egenskap av huvudman
för CCC, Bd 1–8. Visby
1996–2004. M. Mägis diss. bör kompletteras
med E. Blumfeldt, Saaremaa ajalugu. I:
Eesti VI – Saaremaa. Tartu 1934 och
H.Kruus motsvarande kapitel i storverket
Eesti ajalugu, I. Esiajalugu ja musitne vabadusvõitlus.
Kirjutanud H. Moora, E. Laid,
J. Mägiste, H. Kruus. Ed. H. Moora, H.
Kruus. Tartu 1935.
46) K. Kello, Saaremaa vanad kivikirikud. Kes
tegi? I: Tuna 1/2007, s. 154 ff.
47) Senast betr. det gutniska alltinget N. Myrberg,
Room for All? The Gotlanders al and
the All-thing in Roma. Manuskript 2007.
48) HCL VII:1–2; Även M. Mägi, a.a., s. 138 f.;
Utförligt i S. Vahtre, Muinasaja loojang
Eestis, Vabadusvõitlus 1208–1227. Tallinn
1990.
49) M. Mägi, a.a., s. 87 ff., jfr Mägis fynd i Kurevere,
plate 25, och Viltina (2), plate 92,
s. 196 och 255; Även A. Mälk skriver i a.a.
om ”västsvärd” och ”tunga svenska svärd”.
50) Avbildat i Eesti Ajalugu, I. Tartu 1935,
s. 172.
51) J. Peets, The Iron Slag Hills of Tuiu – an ancient
industrial landscape of Saaremaa.
I: Coastal Estonia. Recent Advantages in Environmental
and Cultural History (Pact 51)
Rixensart 1996, s. 29–37; Idem, The Power
of Iron. I: Muinasaja teadus 2003, nr 12,
s. 329–337; K. Kello, a.a. s. 154 f.
52) K. Kello, a.a. s. 154 f; H. Kjellin; V. Raam;
K. Alttoa, Saaremaa kirikud. 2. täiendatud
trükk. Tallinn 2003; K. Markus, Från Gotland
till Estland. Kyrkokonst och politik under
1200-talet. Kristianstad 1999.
53) HCL VII:1.
54) HCL VIII:3.
55) HCL IX:13.
56) Tyskarna hade t.o.m. tagit med sig Kaupo
och rest ända till Rom med honom.
57) HCL XV:3.
58) HCL XII:8.
59) HCL XXX:2–6.
60) E. Tarvel, Tallinn, muntligen. I: K. Kello,
a.a., s 156.
61) HCL XXX:1.
62) Jfr Nils Blomkvists stora internationella
projekt i Visby, CCC, Culture Clash or Compromise,
jfr not 43.
63) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 32 ff, 94.
64) H. Kruus in: Eesti ajalugu I. Tartu 1935, s.
263.
65) Varvid Mälk uppenbarligen stöder sig på
Kruus m.fl. breda kunskaper och närmast
auktoritativa praktutgåva.
66) N. Ahnlund, a.a.o.
67) M. Mägi, a.a., s. 34.
68) D. Harrison, Jarlens sekel. En berättelse om
1200-talets Sverige. Stockholm 2002, s. 578.
69) Th. Lindkvist, Christianisation and State-
Building in the Baltic Area. I: Der Ostseeraum
und Kontinentaleuropa 1100–1600.
CCC VIII. Schwerin 2004, s. 127–131.
70) S. Tesch & J. Vincent, Vyer från medeltidens
Sigtuna. Sigtuna 2005, s. 10.
71) M. Klinge, Östersjövälden. 1984.
72) E. Lönnroth, De äkta folkungarnas program
(1944), nytr. i Från svensk medeltid. Stockholm
1961, s. 13–69; Senast därom H. & F.
Lindström, Svitjods undergång och Sveriges
födelse. Stockholm 2006.

[Idriz]

Finnic people are the blondest Europeans, but who gives a fuck?

I'm the blondest male member of ABF, but how is this related to anything?
Because you're using it in your "Estonia is Nordic"-propaganda.

Troll, GTFO with your anthropology bullshit. We do not live in Nazi Germany.
Karl, I have to remind you that you've used anthropology before as a propaganda weapon: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=11584

[Janos]

Pohja, I believe Estonians burned down Sigtuna. Who else would have done it?

My mother who's been in the archeological business for many years (and have visited Sigtuna) told me she had heard about the Estonians burning down Sigtuna, when I asked her recently.

[Danielion]

When will the first person use frenology? :p

[Põhjamaalane]

Because you're using it in your "Estonia is Nordic"-propaganda.

Anthropology is outdated and I do not believe in it.


Karl, I have to remind you that you've used anthropology before as a propaganda weapon: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=11584

Propaganda weapon? :|

As this is an anthropology related forum, either I like it or not, I posted an informative thread about Estonian anthropology as people kept showing interest about it.

I didn't even write that post, I just copy-pasted it.

I'm reporting your post for breaking the QBQ rule, rule 1.2.4 and rule 2.0


Pohja, I believe Estonians burned down Sigtuna. Who else would have done it?

My mother who's been in the archeological business for many years (and have visited Sigtuna) told me she had heard about the Estonians burning down Sigtuna, when I asked her recently.

I have also visited Sigtuna, but I was just in the museum. It's a nice town.

[Pallantides]

Karl I think you are the coolest person I have ever encountered on the internet. :)

[Põhjamaalane]

Majority of Norwegians feel very little unity with Estonians(at least not any more than with any other European nation), I'm sure it's simillar for Swedes and Danes.

Estonians and Norwegians haven't had a lot interaction through history, although there was some during the Viking age. A Norwegian king was a slave in Estonia, before he gained his throne, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
Estonians, have an extremely strong connection to Finns and a slightly milder connection to Swedes and Danes. To sum it up in one sentence: Estonians and Finns are brothers, Finland and Estonia are brother nations. With Norwegians and Icelanders it's more about living in the same cultural environment with the same historical background - Lutheranism.

I can tell from personal experience, as can other Estonians, that communicating with an Icelander or a Norwegian is easier than with a Balt, because of the similar cultural background and mentality.

---------- Post added 2011-12-25 at 22:57 ----------


Karl I think you are the coolest person I have ever encountered on the internet. :)

I'm a boring guy, thus I don't believe you. ;)

[Tuohikirje]

Pohja, I believe Estonians burned down Sigtuna. Who else would have done it?


I don't. It simply cannot be proved with certainty. Otherwise we might as well carve all sagas as the truth to the stone. Direction of the attack is clear, but participants? Saarenmaa, Curonia, Karelia.

[Põhjamaalane]

I don't. It simply cannot be proved with certainty. Otherwise we might as well carve all sagas as the truth to the stone. Direction of the attack is clear, but participants? Saarenmaa, Curonia, Karelia.

You don't? Why not, are you a Russian historian?

Don't you also believe that Estonia was occupied in 1940?

Karelians didn't have anything to do with Sigtuna, nothing at all. Before making any more dumb posts, I recommend reading all this material:

Noter
1) Sigtuna Eesti Gümnaasium. Sigtuna 1947;
B. Kangro, Estland i Sverige. Lund 1968,
s. 100 f; I romantiserad novellform V. Sermat,
Sigtuna novellid. Stockholm 1991.
2) *1900 i Lümanda på Ösel – † 1987 i Stockholm.
3) A. Mälk, Läänemere isandad. Romaan eestlaste
viikingiajast. Tartu 1936. Ill. E. Järv.
4) Toronto 1951; av författaren omarbetad version.
Samme illustratör; översatt av E. Kõiva,
Lords of the Western Sea. Conn. Andover:
Parousia Press 1984; nyutgiven i Estland
på förlaget Eesti Raamat 2000, med
samma illustrationer samt med förord av författarens
dotter, språkvetaren Halliki Mälk.
5) Ledande roller spelades av Ivar Paljak, Jaan
Teär, Vello Laas och Ilmar Loorand.
6) ”Lehhola” är ren fiktion. Den välkända fornborgen
Lihula ligger på fastlandet, jfr
K. Aluve, Eesti keskaegsed linnused. Tallinn,
1993.
7) Denna amfibieoperation, där fartyg under
stor möda släpas över land för att omfatta
och överraska fienden, liknar en episod från
Konstantiopels belägring 1453. Där släpade
de anfallande turkarna sina fartyg upp över
den branta Perahalvön och ner in i det av bysantinarna
spärrade Gyllene Hornet. S. Runciman,
The Fall of Constantinople 1453.
Cambridge University Press 1964, Chapter
VII; enligt brevuppgift av Halliki Mälk
(Mjölby 14 juni 2007) har A. Mälk (jämte
hustru) rekognoscerat på plats. Enligt samma
källa upprätthöll han också kontakter
med arkiv såväl i Tallinn som i Stockholm.
8) *1908 i Kuressaare på Ösel – †1993 i Kungälv;
stor biografi av A. Viidalepp, EK. Tallinn
2005.
9) 1963: ”Oota, väsinud vennas/Vänta, trötte
broder” och ”Tagasipurjetajad/Hemseglarna”.
I Eesti Üliõpilaste Selts / Akademiska
Sällskapet EÜS ägo, exponerade i Estniska
huset, Wallingatan 32 i Stockholm.
10) *1912 – †1977 i Stockholm.
11) Dvs. liksom läget var i stort i Sverige under
mecklenburgarnas – och Birgittas – tid under
slutet av 1300-talet.
12) K. Ristikivi, Sigtuna väravad. I: Sigtuna väravad.
Juturaamat. EKK Lund 1968,
s. 173–202, i sht s. 177.
13) Birgitta ligger ju i tiden ett par hundra år före
den stormaktstida riksantikvarien Martin
Aschaneus, som annars utpekats som förste
traditionsbäraren betr. portarnas bortsläpande;
S. Tesch, Sigtunas förhärjning år 1187 –
myt eller verklighet. I: Yngre järnålder och
historisk arkeologi i Stockholms län. Stockholm
1999, s. 89.
14) Snorre Sturlasson, Nordiska kungasagor.
Stockholm MCMXCI. s. 191 ff, därtill senast
E. Tarvel, Ajalugu kui kaunis muinasjutt
/ History as a wonderful fairytale. TUNA,
2/2002, Tallinn, s. 4–10, 8, 158.
15) Esternas nationsbyggande utnyttjade i stället
det stora bondeupproret, som började under
S:t Georgsnatten 1343. ”Alla ester” har
berörts av den 18-årige E. Bornhöhes dramatiska
roman ”Tasuja” (Hämnaren), 1880;
nytryck i exilen i Vadstena redan 1947.
16) S. Tesch, a.a., s. 89–98. Förf. behandlar i
sammanhanget även frågan om Stockholms
uppkomst.
17) S. Tesch, ibidem.
18) Chronologia Svecica ex Codice Minoritarum
Wisbyensium. 815–1412. Scriptores
rerum Svecicarum (SRS), I. Uppsala 1818,
s. 39 et seq.
19) N. Ahnlund, Stockholms historia före Gustav
Vasa. Stockholm 1953, s. 84 (cit. Stockholm).
20) Chronologia 266–1430, SRS I, s. 22 f:
”Tunc eciam incensa est sichtonia a paganis...”.
Staden skulle sålunda ha blivit nerbränd;
Chronologia vetus, 816–1263. SRS I,
s. 47 et seq: ”...Sictuna combusta...”; Chronologia
Anonymi Veteris, 826–1415, SRS I,
s. 50 et seq: ”Sichtuna robusta /combusta/ est
a paganis...”; Incerti Scriptores Sveci Chronicon
Rerum Sveogothicarum, 1160–1320.
SRS I, s. 83 et seq: ”Et civitas Sigtonensis
combusta fuit ab eisdem /paganis/”.
21) S. Bolin, Om Nordens äldsta historieskrivning.
Studier över dess metodik och källvärde.
Lund 1931, i sht i kap. VII: Annalnotiserna
rörande Sveriges historia t.o.m. 1200-
talets mitt, s. 201–245.
116
22) Jfr E. Österberg, Historia och arkeologi.
Några reflexioner. RAÄ och SHM Rapport
2. Stockholm 1978, s. 5–23; A. Andrén, Mellan
ting och text. En introduktion till de historiska
arkeologierna. Stockholm 1997;
J. Staecker, Dialog mit dem Tod. I: Europeans
or not. Local Level Strategies on the
Baltic Rim 1100–1400 AD. CCC 1.
Oskarshamn 1999, s. 232 ff.
23) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm, s. 32 f.
24) Stora rimchrönikan. I: SRS I:2, s. 1–52;
Erikskrönikan, Ed. R. Pipping 1921, nytr.
1961; Red. S.-B. Jansson, Stockholm 1986.
25) S. Bolin, a.a., kap. VIII–X, s. 245–285, om
Erikskrönikan; I. Andersson, Erikskrönikans
författare. Minnesteckning. Stockholm
1958.
26) H. Rebas, Internationella medeltida kommunikationer
till och genom Baltikum. I: Historisk
Tidskrift (SHT) 2/1978 (Stockholm),
s. 417–439.
27) Episoden är i vetenskaplig litteratur utförligt
behandlad av bl.a. N. Ahnlund, Jon jarl.
I: Svensk sägen och hävd. Stockholm 1928,
s. 149 ff; A. Stade, ”Den store Jon Jarl”.
I: SHT (59), 1939, s. 113–138; N. Ahnlund,
Stockholm 1953, s. 93 ff. Ahnlund söker lägga
Jon jarls hemkomst och död efter det
misslyckade danska generalangreppet på
Ösel år 1206.
28) Ericus Olai, Chronica... SRS II, Uppsala
1828, s 1 et seq: ”Tunc etiam combusta est
civitas Sigtonia a eisdem paganis”. s. 49;
Sv. Arnoldsson, Ericus Olai och periodindelningen
i Sveriges historia. Acta universitatis
Gotoburgensis LVIII. 1952:4, Göteborg;
E. Lönnroth, Ericus Olai som politiker.
Kungl. humanistiska vetenskapssamfundet i
Uppsala. Årsbok 1952, s. 149–171. Omtr. i
Från svensk medeltid. Stockholm 1959,
s. 127–142.
29) H. Schück, Rikets brev och register: arkivbildande,
kansliväsen och tradition inom den
medeltida svenska statsmakten. Skrifter utgivna
av svenska Riksarkivet, nr 4. Stockholm
1974.
30) Olaus Petris Svenska croeneka. Tr. ffg år
1818 i SRS I:2, därefter red. och ed. av
G. E. Klemming, Stockholm 1860, därefter
av J. Sahlgren i Olaus Petris samlade skrifter,
Utg. B. Hesselman, Bd 4. Uppsala 1917,
s. 1–298.
31) Jfr i SRS II:2, s. 151–160: Gustav Vasa till
Olaus Petri, Kalmar den 5 aug. 1554; Gustav
Vasa till prinsarna Erik och Johan, Gripsholm
den 23 dec. 1554; Gustav Vasa till prinsarna
Erik och Johan, Gripsholm den 25 dec.
1554; Gustav Vasa till Laurentius Petri,
Gripsholm den 24 dec. 1554; Gravamina
Reg. Gustavi I contra Laurentium Petri,
anim adversio nesque in Chronica Fratris
Olai.
32) G. T. Westin, Historieskrivaren Olaus Petri.
Lund 1946. Diss.
33) Olaus Petri, SRS I:2, p. 243.
34) Idem, p. 244.
35) Jfr Henricus de lettis, Heinrici Chronicon
Livoniae (cit. HCL): Heinrichs livländische
Chronik, 2. Aufl. Ed. L. Arbusow, A. Bauer.
Hannover 1955; Henriku Liivimaa kroonika.
Ed. J. Mägiste. Stockholm 1962; Henriku
Liivimaa kroonika. Ed. R. Kleis, E. Tarvel.
Tallinn 1982, XXIII:2 och XXIV:3.
36) HCL XXIV:3.
37) Laurentius Petri, Chronica svecana. SRS
II:2, s. 3 et seq.
38) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 71;
S. Högberg, Stockholms historia 1. Stockholm
1981, s. 10 ff.
39) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 71; C. J.
Gardberg och E .B.Lundberg, Art. ”Kastal”.
I: Kulturhistorisk leksikon för nordisk middelalder
(cit. KLNM). Bd VIII. København
1963, sp. 323 ff.; J. Wienberg, Fortresses,
Storehouses and Symbols – ambiguous
churches of the Baltic Sea. I: Der Ostseeraum
und Kontinentaleuropa 1100–1600.
CCC VIII. Schwerin 2004, s. 35 f.
40) Wienberg, a.a., s. 42.
41) N. P. Vigeland, T. I. Itkonen, Art.”Båt“. I:
KLMN, Bd II. København 1957, sp. 467 ff.
42) The Chronicle of Novgorod 1016–1471.
Camden Third Series, vol. XXV. London
1914, s. 256.
43) Njals, Egil Skallagrimsons och den redan
nämnde Olav Tryggvassons sagor.
HAIN REBAS
44) Saxo Grammaticus, Gesta danorum/Taanlaste
vägiteod. Tallinn 2000. s. 163 f.
45) M. Mägi, At the crossroads of space and
time. Graves, changing society and ideology
on Saaremaa (Ösel), 9th–13th century. Tallinn
2002; N. Blomkvist i egenskap av huvudman
för CCC, Bd 1–8. Visby
1996–2004. M. Mägis diss. bör kompletteras
med E. Blumfeldt, Saaremaa ajalugu. I:
Eesti VI – Saaremaa. Tartu 1934 och
H.Kruus motsvarande kapitel i storverket
Eesti ajalugu, I. Esiajalugu ja musitne vabadusvõitlus.
Kirjutanud H. Moora, E. Laid,
J. Mägiste, H. Kruus. Ed. H. Moora, H.
Kruus. Tartu 1935.
46) K. Kello, Saaremaa vanad kivikirikud. Kes
tegi? I: Tuna 1/2007, s. 154 ff.
47) Senast betr. det gutniska alltinget N. Myrberg,
Room for All? The Gotlanders al and
the All-thing in Roma. Manuskript 2007.
48) HCL VII:1–2; Även M. Mägi, a.a., s. 138 f.;
Utförligt i S. Vahtre, Muinasaja loojang
Eestis, Vabadusvõitlus 1208–1227. Tallinn
1990.
49) M. Mägi, a.a., s. 87 ff., jfr Mägis fynd i Kurevere,
plate 25, och Viltina (2), plate 92,
s. 196 och 255; Även A. Mälk skriver i a.a.
om ”västsvärd” och ”tunga svenska svärd”.
50) Avbildat i Eesti Ajalugu, I. Tartu 1935,
s. 172.
51) J. Peets, The Iron Slag Hills of Tuiu – an ancient
industrial landscape of Saaremaa.
I: Coastal Estonia. Recent Advantages in Environmental
and Cultural History (Pact 51)
Rixensart 1996, s. 29–37; Idem, The Power
of Iron. I: Muinasaja teadus 2003, nr 12,
s. 329–337; K. Kello, a.a. s. 154 f.
52) K. Kello, a.a. s. 154 f; H. Kjellin; V. Raam;
K. Alttoa, Saaremaa kirikud. 2. täiendatud
trükk. Tallinn 2003; K. Markus, Från Gotland
till Estland. Kyrkokonst och politik under
1200-talet. Kristianstad 1999.
53) HCL VII:1.
54) HCL VIII:3.
55) HCL IX:13.
56) Tyskarna hade t.o.m. tagit med sig Kaupo
och rest ända till Rom med honom.
57) HCL XV:3.
58) HCL XII:8.
59) HCL XXX:2–6.
60) E. Tarvel, Tallinn, muntligen. I: K. Kello,
a.a., s 156.
61) HCL XXX:1.
62) Jfr Nils Blomkvists stora internationella
projekt i Visby, CCC, Culture Clash or Compromise,
jfr not 43.
63) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 32 ff, 94.
64) H. Kruus in: Eesti ajalugu I. Tartu 1935, s.
263.
65) Varvid Mälk uppenbarligen stöder sig på
Kruus m.fl. breda kunskaper och närmast
auktoritativa praktutgåva.
66) N. Ahnlund, a.a.o.
67) M. Mägi, a.a., s. 34.
68) D. Harrison, Jarlens sekel. En berättelse om
1200-talets Sverige. Stockholm 2002, s. 578.
69) Th. Lindkvist, Christianisation and State-
Building in the Baltic Area. I: Der Ostseeraum
und Kontinentaleuropa 1100–1600.
CCC VIII. Schwerin 2004, s. 127–131.
70) S. Tesch & J. Vincent, Vyer från medeltidens
Sigtuna. Sigtuna 2005, s. 10.
71) M. Klinge, Östersjövälden. 1984.
72) E. Lönnroth, De äkta folkungarnas program
(1944), nytr. i Från svensk medeltid. Stockholm
1961, s. 13–69; Senast därom H. & F.
Lindström, Svitjods undergång och Sveriges
födelse. Stockholm 2006.

English summary:

First, here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

On the other hand, we have several contemporary accounts of Estonian pirate activity in Scandinavia: ravishing Öland in 1170 with the Curonians (Saxo Grammaticus), raiding Listerby in 1203 (Heinrici Chronicon Livoniae), looting on the Swedish coast in 1226 (the same). What's more, both Eric's chronicle and Olaus Petri relate about an earl named Jon who got killed by the same pagans (Estonians according to Olaus) on Lake Mälaren. Jon's widow is then said to have gathered folk and slaughtered the enemies on "a hill that is called eesta skär ('Estonians' islet')". The islet is today known as Estbröte.

[Tuohikirje]

It is more than probable, that Estonians and Curonians together with other groups (possibly) raided Sigtuna. There are recorded co-operated raids earlier on e.g. 1170 against Danes.

Don't be a nationalistic dumbass and check the Latvian sources as well.

[Põhjamaalane]

It is more than probable, that Estonians and Curonians together with other groups (possibly) raided Sigtuna. There are recorded co-operated raids earlier on e.g. 1170 against Danes.

Don't be a nationalistic dumbass and check the Latvian sources as well.

You are the only nationalistic dumbass here.

If you checked the long list I gave you, you would know that those documents/historical writings etc. aren't Estonian. They are practically everything from the world written on the subject, from different countries.

I got this large Swedish PDF from the official Sigtuna museum webpage.

The distance between the Sõrve peninsula and the Livonians living in Curonia was about 30 kilometres. For a big raid like that, I wouldn't be surprised if the vikings of Saaremaa asked their close brethren, the Livonians, for help.

One thing is certain, there were no Karelians anywhere in this story. If you read a couple of sentences from my previous posts, then you wouldn't be acting like a "nationalistic dumbass".

[Freewheel]

But Karelians, not Estonians, captured the door of Sigtuna church. Dont forget that :) If they were Estonians, the door would still be in Tallinn.

Karelians? Possible. But mhmm, who knows who did it. It is obvious that sources are contradictory: Latvians say that Balts, Estonians that Estonians, Finns that Karelians.;) And everyone consideres his own sources to be right and valid and other, competitive sources "wrong".Maybe it a bit childish? Perhaps all these three countries Latvia, Estonia, Finland are feeling kinda "lack of gloriousity" in their history thus each of them wants to impute that Sigtuna.

[takoja]

I have also visited Sigtuna, but I was just in the museum. It's a nice town.

Wait. You were in Sigtuna? You did not try to burn it?

[Põhjamaalane]

Karelians? Possible. But mhmm, who knows who did it. It is obvious that sources are contradictory: Latvians say that Balts, Estonians that Estonians, Finns that Karelians.;) And everyone consideres his own sources to be right and valid and other, competitive sources "wrong".Maybe it a bit childish? Perhaps all these three countries Latvia, Estonia, Finland are feeling kinda "lack of gloriousity" in their history thus each of them wants to impute that Sigtuna.

All historians in Europe say that the Estonians did it, except Russian ones. Also every single Swedish historian through history has said that the Estonians did it.

The fact that the Estonians did it, is carved into stone, just read some of my previous posts.


Wait. You were in Sigtuna? You did not try to burn it?

Why should I? Some of my ancestors already did it 900 years ago. :p

One of my grandparent is from the Sõrve peninsula and that area had the most people with a "viking lifestyle" because they were surrounded by see from almost all angles. 900 years ago the Sõrve peninsula actually still was an island and there was a small strait between Saaremaa and Sõrve back then that was a Northern-European version of Istanbul, you could say. Two, 1200 year-old shipburials have been found right at the same place where the strait's shore was.

[Freewheel]

Estonians, have an extremely strong connection to Finns and a slightly milder connection to Swedes and Danes.[COLOR="Silver"]


Extremely strong, is that really the best word?Well, indeed Estonia and Finland are related countries in many aspects but imo one can find many countries whose relations can be described with the words "extremely strong" much more appropriately: eg. Sweden and Norway, UK and US, Austria and Germany and etc. Estonia and Finland had had pretty different history from 13th century till 1991.
Estonia's connections with Danes? Don't you think they are old and have no practical influence for the later centuries? Connections with e.g. Russia are clearly more fresh I'd say. I mean the connections what had existed in reality, an other question is that does everyone likes it or not...

[Põhjamaalane]

Extremely strong, is that really the best word?Well, indeed Estonia and Finland are related countries in many aspects but imo one can find many countries whose relations can be described with the words "extremely strong" much more appropriately: eg. Sweden and Norway, UK and US, Austria and Germany and etc. Estonia and Finland had had pretty different history from 13th century till 1991.
Estonia's connections with Danes? Don't you think they are old and have no practical influence for the later centuries? Connections with e.g. Russia are clearly more fresh I'd say. I mean the connections what had existed in reality, an other question is that does everyone likes it or not...

Oh right, you still live in year 1988 and think that Finland and Estonia are divided by the iron curtain.

Have fun with that idea. There's a reason why Finland and Estonia were called brother countries before WW2 and are called brother countries even in 2011.

[Freewheel]

Oh right, you still live in year 1988 and think that Finland and Estonia are divided by the iron curtain.

Have fun with that idea. There's a reason why Finland and Estonia were called brother countries before WW2 and are called brother countries even in 2011.

Finland is in fact Estonia's linguistical cousin. As there is no surviving linguistical brothers to Estonian language, Finnish may be called as brother indeed, although it is not correct in fact.
...But talking about relations- some say Finland has been rather like a mother to Estonia. You know why mother may be a right word? Because mother is foregiving...: I mean in 90ies especially Estonians' attitude towards Finns was not good: Finland helped Estonia when it's evil eastern "stepmother" collapsed and showed up very friendly attitude towards Estonia but Estonians "in return for" called Finns moose, drunkards, not very european, dumb etc. Probably Estonians couldn't hide their complexes towards wealthy neighbour. I felt such attitude towards Finns it to be unfair.

[Lemminkäinen]

Extremely strong, is that really the best word?Well, indeed Estonia and Finland are related countries in many aspects but imo one can find many countries whose relations can be described with the words "extremely strong" much more appropriately: eg. Sweden and Norway, UK and US, Austria and Germany and etc. Estonia and Finland had had pretty different history from 13th century till 1991.
..

Unfortunately this different history is caused in our past by foreign people. I understand that in practice Finns and Estonins had very little culturl connections 20 years ago. But I also understand when many people try to see over all troubled years behind us.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 19:57 ----------



...But talking about relations- some say Finland has been rather like a mother to Estonia. You know why mother may be a right word? Because mother is foregiving...: I mean in 90ies especially Estonians' attitude towards Finns was not good: Finland helped Estonia when it's evil eastern "stepmother" collapsed and showed up very friendly attitude towards Estonia but Estonians "in return for" called Finns moose, drunkards, not very european, dumb etc. Probably Estonians couldn't hide their complexes towards wealthy neighbour. I felt such attitude towards Finns it to be unfair.

We have a long history making jokes about Swedes, and they have made jokes about us. We have called them fagots and they us "jevels". We loved to hear that we are mooses :p