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Mosov
2012-02-29, 16:17
A high amount of R1b is found in the Armenian populace. If you take Armenians from Karabakh/Syunik region which have mountainous barriers the prevalence goes to 40%. What say you about this?


Within the R1b haplogroup are modal haplotypes. One of the best-characterized of these haplotypes is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In the Iberian Peninsula it reaches 33% in Portugal.
There also exists a haplotype of R1b with the DYS393=12 which is known in the literature as Haplotype 35, or ht35, as opposed to the AMH which is known as haplotype 15. They can be found in high numbers in Southeastern Europe and Western Asia. The members of this haplotype are thought to be descended from early R1b's who found shelter in Anatolia. They can be found in high numbers in the Armenian Highland and Armenia with smaller numbers throughout the Middle East, in Jewish populations, in Southeastern Europe, and in the Caucasus Mountains. There is also a sizable pocket of ht35 in Uyghur populations in western China, which is thought to be a remnant of the Tocharians, an Indo-European speaking people that inhabited the Tarim Basin in Central Asia until they were later absorbed by various Turkic peoples. Ht35 is also present in Britain in areas that were found to have a high concentration of Haplogroup J, suggesting they arrived together, perhaps through Roman soldiers. For further information and different subgroups of ht35, see [8] .


R1b1a2a represents the largest haplogroup for Armenians in general and project members in particular. It has been estimated to be 8,000 years old. According to Vince Vizachero who runs the haplogroup R-ht35 Project: "From prior analysis, it appears that R1b1a2a moved north and west into Europe quite rapidly. And the data we are seeing in our project are consistent with that: the oldest forms of R1b1a2a are found at high frequency in the "homeland" of SW Asia and places with the most contact with that region. The closer we get to NW Europe, the more we observe the youngest, derived forms of R1b1a2a." The current distribution of this haplogroup shows a heavy concentration in Western Europe (from the Northern part of the Iberian peninsula to Ireland and England via France and Belgium) as can be seen in this MAP. The map corroborates Vince's conclusions as it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1a2a in a Northern swath of Anatolia - with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

The distribution of the "youngest and derived forms" of R1b1a2 found mainly in Western Europe - which do not include any Armenians so far - can be viewed here (the numbers represent percentages). Both are the only known branches of R1b1a2a1a1 (ht-15): P312 = R1b1a2a1a1a and U106 = R1b1a2a1a1b. If any Armenians are found in one of these two groups in the future, it will most likely mean they are descended from Crusaders. As per Wikipedia: It was initially believed that R1b originated in western Europe where (considered as a whole, including subclades) it reaches its highest frequencies. However R1b's variance increases as one moves east, leading to the view that R1b originated further east, and (M269) expanded into Europe in the Neolithic not Paleolithic. Many geneticists now believe that R1b arose in Central Asia or Western Asia. All of the above is illustrated quite clearly in this PowerPoint slide.

This lengthy article on R1b1 is fairly accurate and up-to-date. Recommended reading for members of this haplogroup. A warning however concerning the articles on the other haplogroups: there are numerous inaccuracies and ommissions.

Vince Vizachero prepared the following MAP of the distribution of R1b1a2* (yellow - L265+), R1b1a2a* (green - L23+), R1b1a2a1a* (orange - L51+), and R1b1a2a1a1* (red - L11+). The vast majority of R1b1a2 members of the Armenian DNA Project belong to the green R1b1a2a* L23+ branch. A few are part of the yellow R1b1a2* L265+ branch. None are orange R1b1a2a11* L51+ only. One is red R1b1a2a1a1* L11+. More importantly, no Armenians are found in the big European branches downstream of red L11+, namely U106 & P312.

A recent study published in january 2010 seems to corroborate all of the above. According to its authors (Balaresque et al): "Haplogroup R1b1a2 is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic... R1b1a2 was carried as a rapidly expanding lineage from the Near East via Anatolia to the western fringe of Europe during the Neolithic. Our interpretation of the history of hg R1b1a2 now makes Europe a prime example of how expansion of a Y-chromosomal lineage tends to accompany technological and cultural change." Unfortunately, the authors did not type R1b1a2 subgroups. Since their study makes raw use of the genealogical rate of mutation and does not sufficiently cover Balkan samples, their conclusions are somewhat oversimplified.

Another study published in august 2010 (Myres et al.) strengthens this view: "The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe."

January 2011 update: there now seems to be some structure to the largest haplogroup branch in the Armenian DNA Project. Armenians and others getting tested at 23andMe seem to belong either to one of the two new L277 and L405 subclades or to neither of them. Large scale testing will begin once these SNP mutations are available for testing at Family Tree DNA. Ref. this clear new TREE prepared by Vince Vizachero.

If all of the above is true, it may explain the origin of the Basques.

For the latest research on the less differentiated but not necessarily more ancient R1b1* haplogroup branch, visit the news page of Vincent Vizachero's R1b1* DNA Project. Vizachero computed branch lengths for R1 and came up with the following estimates: R1 = 18,500 years ago; R1b1 = 15,300 years ago; and R1b1a = 12,500 years ago. Here is the summary TREE for R1b1 and its major branches. Vizachero notes that R1b1* exists throughout Eurasia. It is pretty rare in Europe, and there is no getting around the fact that R1b1 is essentially a Eurasian haplogroup with strong phylogenetic structure. As per this MAP, R1b1* has its frequency peak in SW Asia - it appears to have more diversity there too.

As per Vince: "There are two main branches in R1b1 (R1b* is probably a phantom). One branch is R-P297 [R1b1b] and the other branch is what we call R1b1* (or R1b1(xP297). So if you are looking for an origin point for R1b1, then you look for the intersection of those two sets. The TMRCA for those two lines is roughly 16,000 years ago. R-P297 is easy, since there are only two clades which are easily identified by SNP. R1b1a1 and R1b1a2 both have Eurasian distributions, and the origin point for both is in the Near East (call it Anatolia+Levant if you want). The TMRCA of R-P297 is roughly 12,000 years ago. Although the frequency of R-M73 [R1b1a1] is highest in Central Asia, this is not where it is most diverse. And there are three distinct clades of R-M73. R1b1* is itself divided into two major lineages, with the split between them being roughly 15,000 years ago. The academics never pay enough attention to R1b1*, but we can see that the frequency peak of R1b1* is clearly in the Near East." The first cluster of R1b1* (call it A) is comprised solely of Europeans, Sephardic Jews and an Armenian. The second cluster of R1b1* has two subgroups (call them B1 and B2). B1 is composed of an Armenian, an Iraqi Syriac & an Iranian Arab. "B2 is comprised of a wide group of people (including Europeans, Arabians, Ashkenazi, Africans, etc). It is this group B2 which appears to have been the source population for the back-to-Africa migration to Cameroon." Cluster B1 diverged from cluster B2 about 10,000 years ago. A new SNP mutation called V88 separates both A and B1 from B2. Vince Vizachero believes " that R1b1 first appeared in the northern part of southwest Asia (e.g. Iraq/Iran) while V88 first arose in an R1b1 population living just a little further south (e.g. the Levant or Arabia)."

Silesian
2012-02-29, 16:54
A high amount of R1b is found in the Armenian populace. If you take Armenians from Karabakh/Syunik region which have mountainous barriers the prevalence goes to 40%. What say you about this?

This high concentration in Karabakh/Syunik is very interesting and not even mentioned in the Family Tree Dna ht 35 project. R1b is also present among indigenous groups like the Talysh/Ossets/Tats,Assyrians.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

"The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle"
Annals to A.D. 381

The island Britain1 is 800 miles long, and 200 miles broad. And there are in the island five nations; English, Welsh (or British),2 Scottish, Pictish, and Latin. The first inhabitants were the Britons, who came from Armenia,3 and first peopled Britain southward. Then happened it, that the Picts came south from Scythia,"

both these regions have one marker in common R1b r-m269

Here is what I also find interesting, Syunik also has interesting stone formations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBh9qOFOIf0

Callinish, Outer Hebrides, interesting stone formations,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ--fBsgQXg

Mosov
2012-02-29, 21:36
Well to be fair, the reference to Armenia in the Chronicles is not actually referring to Armenia in Caucasus but referring to Brittany.

Silesian
2012-03-01, 05:53
Well to be fair, the reference to Armenia in the Chronicles is not actually referring to Armenia in Caucasus but referring to Brittany.

Do you have any contacts with people from Armenia? If so, can you provide information on blood type distribution.

Mosov
2012-03-01, 06:00
Do you have any contacts with people from Armenia? If so, can you provide information on blood type distribution.

I'm sure there's data on that, but what does blood type info give you?

cilicia
2012-03-01, 06:07
Armenians are majority A+ from what I understand. I think more studies should be done on this though as I have read on the internet some Armenians state they are RH-.

I also agree that Karahunj is most definitely connected to Stonehenge and is much, much older.


I think that if the Anglo-Saxon chronicles had been referring to Armorica they would have said Armorica, but they firmly stated Armenia.

Silesian
2012-03-01, 07:15
I'm sure there's data on that, but what does blood type info give you?

I would appreciate if you could use your contacts and provide any information if this particular uncommon trait[more specific gene deletion] is present in the Armenian people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

Mosov
2012-03-01, 14:25
I would appreciate if you could use your contacts and provide any information if this particular uncommon trait[more specific gene deletion] is present in the Armenian people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

There's a rather high frequency of type A blood in Armenia followed by type O.

Silesian
2012-03-01, 14:34
There's a rather high frequency of type A blood in Armenia followed by type O.

Yes I'm aware of that. It is this mutation in the Caucasus[ABO and Rh distribution by country] that interests me. For example Turkey has 4.7% A rh-, Saudi Arabia 2%, Sweden 7% Poland 6% Spain 8% ; is Armenia/Caucasus similar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type
"ABO and Rh blood type distribution by nation (population averages)"

birko19
2012-03-01, 14:44
A high amount of R1b is found in the Armenian populace. If you take Armenians from Karabakh/Syunik region which have mountainous barriers the prevalence goes to 40%. What say you about this?

Often times the percentage does not mean much. Usually for whatever reason certain lineages get more lucky than others in specific areas.

Mosov
2012-03-01, 14:51
Often times the percentage does not mean much. Usually for whatever reason certain lineages get more lucky than others in specific areas.

What you mean more lucky? It depends on the sample size, and the sample size in this case is large enough for such inference.

birko19
2012-03-01, 15:11
What you mean more lucky? It depends on the sample size, and the sample size in this case is large enough for such inference.

For the sake of argument, let us assume there's a small town which has 1000 men. Out of these 1000 men, the haplogroup division is the following:

400 - R1b
300 - J2
200 - J1
100 - R1a

Someone tests 50 men from this town randomly, can you guarantee that you'll end up with 40% R1b, 30% J2, 20% J1, and 10% R1a? No you cannot guarantee that. While these tests give a good indication of the lineages that exist, the percentages usually vary. Then you have the subject of luck, in some cases certain lineages get more lucky than others for whatever reason.

Mosov
2012-03-01, 15:16
For the sake of argument, let us assume there's a small town which has 1000 men. Out of these 1000 men, the haplogroup division is the following:

400 - R1b
300 - J2
200 - J1
100 - R1a

Someone tests 50 men from this town randomly, can you guarantee that you'll end up with 40% R1b, 30% J2, 20% J1, and 10% R1a? No you cannot guarantee that. While these tests give a good indication of the lineages that exist, the percentages usually vary. Then you have the subject of luck, in some cases certain lineages get more lucky than others for whatever reason.

Statistically you always have a spread. That's why sample sizes are chosen carefully to be representative of the population. This goes for most reputable genetic studies. By doing this you get prediction power with which you can predict at a given probability the percentage of a given haplogroup in let's say a village or haplogroup of an individual. Yes it's not going to be exact, there is going be some standard error, that is natural. I'm guessing then you would reject all studies regarding Y-DNA haplogroups in ethnic groups?

birko19
2012-03-01, 15:32
Statistically you always have a spread. That's why sample sizes are chosen carefully to be representative of the population. This goes for most reputable genetic studies. By doing this you get prediction power with which you can predict at a given probability the percentage of a given haplogroup in let's say a village or haplogroup of an individual. Yes it's not going to be exact, there is going be some standard error, that is natural. I'm guessing then you would reject all studies regarding Y-DNA haplogroups in ethnic groups?

I don't reject genetic studies at all, I just think in order to solidify anything, you need to repeat the test over and over. Mind you, I very well accept the dominance of R1b among the Armenians and say it's anywhere from 20% to 40%, that's a safer bet overall.

Mosov
2012-03-01, 17:23
I don't reject genetic studies at all, I just think in order to solidify anything, you need to repeat the test over and over. Mind you, I very well accept the dominance of R1b among the Armenians and say it's anywhere from 20% to 40%, that's a safer bet overall.

Well it depends on your standard deviation and your z-value regarding your confidence. Repeating the test over and over adds accuracy, but it isn't always feasible especially in these genetic tests. More often than not you have a voluntary sample size of a range of people. You can never know the true proportion unless you measure every Armenian in the world lol, hence these estimates given a decent sample size (which there is) provide a reasonable point estimate for the proportion. For you the say that you think the range is between 40% and 20% you need to have good idea of of the standard deviation which is tough in these real world cases to obtain. I doubt the SD would be that high though.

shshmuk
2012-07-14, 17:57
A high amount of R1b is found in the Armenian populace. If you take Armenians from Karabakh/Syunik region which have mountainous barriers the prevalence goes to 40%. What say you about this?

According to geneticist Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan, the Armenians of those two regions (in Eastern Armenia) are the best preserved Armenians in their ancestral lands. Because, as we know from our history, Armenians many a time had to migrate from one region to another. But this is not the case with the people of Siunik and Artsakh (Karabakh) as they have almost always been able to preserve some kind of autonomy, having melikdoms. He says also that in Eastern Armenia (mainly the territory of today's Republic of Armenia), 40% of the people are from paleolithic age, the other 30% are from the Middle East, from the neolithic age.


Those of you who can understand Russian, can hear him say that in the following video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QcrmNSnOO8&feature=BFa&list=UUA464DplDrR7NBmhXHWMy-Q) (at 04.40m etc, where he answers questions after his lecture) and somewhere else too in his lecture (I don't remember where exactly)*.


* Due to moderation rules for beginners at this forum, my post where I put all the links of this lecture remained unnoticed. So go here for it - http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?p=941168#post941168

Mosov
2012-07-14, 17:59
According to geneticist Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan, the Armenians of those two regions are the best preserved Armenians in their ancestral lands. Because, as we know from our history, Armenians many a time had to migrate from one region to another. But this is not the case with the people of Siunik and Artsakh (Karabakh) as they have almost always were able to preserve some kind of autonomy, having melikdoms. He says also that in Eastern Armenia (mainly the territory of today's Republic of Armenia), 40% of the people are from paleolithic age, the other 30% are from the Middle East, from the neolithic age.


Those of you who can understand Russian, can hear him say that in the following video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QcrmNSnOO8&feature=BFa&list=UUA464DplDrR7NBmhXHWMy-Q) (at 04.40m etc, where he answers questions after his lecture) and somewhere else too in his lecture (I don't remember where exactly)*.


* Due to moderation rules for beginners at this forum, my post where I put all the links of this lecture remained unnoticed. So go here for it - http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?p=941168#post941168

Yes this is expected. Karabakh/Syunik also are in very mountainous regions, which act as good genetic barriers. I think I had read also that the "least preserved Armenians" genetically were from Sasoun region, but I may be wrong.

shshmuk
2012-07-14, 18:03
Yes this is expected. Karabakh/Syunik also are in very mountainous regions, which act as good genetic barriers. I think I had read also that the "least preserved Armenians" genetically were from Sasoun region, but I may be wrong.

Again, this post of mine (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=941148&postcount=16) too remained unnoticed. I'm
speaking there about the people of Sasun.

Alaron
2012-07-14, 18:11
Yes this is expected. Karabakh/Syunik also are in very mountainous regions, which act as good genetic barriers. I think I had read also that the "least preserved Armenians" genetically were from Sasoun region, but I may be wrong.

I have heard Armenians from Karabakh/Syunik have very robust features.

Mosov
2012-07-14, 18:38
Again, this post of mine (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=941148&postcount=16) too remained unnoticed. I'm
speaking there about the people of Sasun.

Well I'm Sasunci, so you saying my ancestors are Assyrian?

shshmuk
2012-07-14, 18:41
Well I'm Sasunci, so you saying my ancestors are Assyrian?

Perhaps :)

Mosov
2012-07-14, 19:17
Perhaps :)

Well God knows who my ancestors were thousands of years ago, though I don't lose sleep over it, because I turned out Armenian now, so that all matters really ;)

any information on naxijevan armenians also?