Indo-Iranian R1a (Wells et al. 2001)

[EliasAlucard]

This is interesting:


Intriguingly, the population of present-day Iran, speaking a major Indo-European language (Farsi), appears to have had little genetic influence from the M17-carrying Indo-Iranians. It is possible that the pre-Indo-European population of Iran—effectively an eastern extension of the great civilizations of Mesopotamia—may have reached sufficient population densities to have swamped any genetic contribution from a small number of immigrating Indo-Iranians. If so, this may have been a case of language replacement through the “elite-dominance” model (29 (http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full#ref-29)). Alternatively, an Indo-Iranian language may have been the lingua franca of the steppe nomads and the surrounding settled populations, facilitating communication between the two. Over time, this language could have become the predominant language in Persia, reinforced and standardized by rulers such as Cyrus the Great and Darius in the mid-first millennium B.C. Whichever model is correct, the Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern populations than they are to Central Asians or Indians. This finding contrasts with a recent analysis of Eastern Iranian populations, which have high frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroup 3, defined by the M17 analogue SRY-1532A (30 (http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full#ref-30)). It is likely that the Dasht-e Kavir and Dasht-e Lut deserts in the center of the country have acted as significant barriers to gene flow.
Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full

But he's only discussing Y-DNA, right? How genetically similar are modern Persians to the original Aryans who migrated to the Iranian plateau? It may be so that the haplogroups of the indigenous population dominated over the new Aryan immigrants but without changing the gene pool of the Aryans all too much. Is he taking this into account or is he assuming that Y-DNA is how you measure genetic similarity? If it's the latter, he shouldn't be a population geneticist.

[Polako]

He's saying that modern Persians carry very little R1a1, which was seen at almost 100% in the Indo-Iranian Scythians. This perhaps means that the Scythians culturally dominated the locals of that region, without passing on their genes in a big way, or maybe Indo-Iranian languages spread to Persia because that's what everyone was speaking in Central Asia, after the Scythians took over key trading areas of the steppe, including the Silk Road routes.

[EliasAlucard]

He's saying that modern Persians carry very little R1a1, which was seen at almost 100% in the Indo-Iranian Scythians. This perhaps means that the Scythians culturally dominated the locals of that region, without passin on their genes in a big way, or maybe Indo-Iranian languages spread to Persia because that's what everyone was speaking in Central Asia, after the Scythians took over key trading areas of the steppe, including the Silk Road routes.Speaking of the Scythians, I don't know how reliable this source is and it's not academically peer-reviewed, but it sounds credible:
The cultural give and take influenced the many things some of which are the cuneiform writing and the building of ziggurats which the later Assyrians and the Achaemenid (Hakhamaneshi) Persians inherited. The Assyrians for the most part were responsible for the destruction of the Elamite civilization but the Assyrians influenced the cultures of Media and Urartu And the influence of Elam lived on among the Medes and Persians. The various Iranian speaking peoples who had been coming into what is now Caucasus Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia since around 4 thousand BCE were heavily influenced by the aboriginal Elamites and the Semitic Babylonians and Assyrians. This difference can be most noticed when one compares other Iranian speaking peoples who lived in Eurasia like the Scything and Sarmatians whose culture was very different with that of Iranian tribes who settled in the Iranian Plateau and became more intertwined with Slavic peoples. So from that far back Iran (the geographic location) has been multi-ethnic.
Source: http://www.iranian.com/Letters/2002/June/june19.htmlI'm not surprised that R1a1 didn't manage to completely dominate all over West Asia. It's just a haplogroup after all. What's more interesting to find out, is if modern Persians are more genetically similar to Afro-Asiatic speaking populations when compared with other Indo-European speakers.

[Surena]

Persians are not a completely genetically homogeneous group ...

The tajiks, who speak a persian dialect, carry R1a to a high degree, sometimes up to 60-70 %. This isn't surprising since it was around Tajikistan the proto-indo-iranians were settled. In eastern Iran 35 % carry R1a but the further away you go the levels are lower. In Tehran and Isfahan the numbers are around ~20 %. Naturally people that live in the western parts of Iran (mostly kurds and arabs etc.) are genetically closer to people living neighboring countries to the west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population


About M17 in western asia:

Western Asia

The M17 marker is found in five to ten percent of Middle Eastern men. This is true even in some western Iranian populations where Persian, a major Indo-European language with close relatives in high frequency areas in Central and South Asia, is spoken. However, on the Eastern side of Iran, around 35% of men carry the M17 maker.[13]

Wells et al. (2001) suggest that the deserts of central Iran acted as "significant barriers to gene flow," and propose two possibilities:“ Intriguingly, the population of present-day Iran, speaking a major Indo-European language (Farsi), appears to have had little genetic influence from the M17-carrying Indo-Iranians. It is possible that the pre-Indo-European population of Iran— effectively an eastern extension of the great civilizations of Mesopotamia—may have reached sufficient population densities to have swamped any genetic contribution from a small number of immigrating Indo-Iranians. If so, this may have been a case of language replacement through the ‘‘elite-dominance’’ model. Alternatively, an Indo-Iranian language may have been the lingua franca of the steppe nomads and the surrounding settled populations, facilitating communication between the two. Over time, this language could have become the predominant language in Persia, reinforced and standardized by rulers such as Cyrus the Great and Darius in the mid-first millennium B.C. Whichever model is correct, the Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern populations than they are to Central Asians or Indians. ”


M. Regueiro et al. (2006) on high frequency of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages in Iran.
“From the disparate M198 frequencies observed for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a movement southward towards India where the lineage may have had an influence on the populations south of the Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal correlation and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia, 6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) suggests that population movement was southward towards India and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition, the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a#Western_Asia

[arabturaniran]

Tadjiks' Turkic speaking neighbors are also Very highly R1a and I remember reading that its from the same sub-clade.

If we look to non ishkashimi Tadjik Y-DNA,for example Y-DNA of the people of Dushanbe(the capital)there is a lot of J's.

It's interesting that Tadjik looks similar to tazi the name given by persians to Arabs.

W Iranians are closer to their Assyrian and Iraqi neighbors than E Iranians and Uzbeks(who are majoritly Turkic speaking ).

http://karakalpak.com/images/genetic00.jpg

Here national teams of Iran,Tadjikistan,Uzbekistan,Afghaistan,Jordan,Syri a,Iraq,Egypt,Algeria,Morocco.

1/Iranian speaking(including the Iranian-mixed Turkic speaking Uzbeks)
Iran
http://www.football.co.uk/shared/images/teams/full_squad/iran_squad.jpg
Uzbekistan
http://iranfootballonline.com/UserFiles/Image/TeamMelli/AsianCup_2007/Uzbek_team2.jpg
Tadjikistan
http://www.bffonline.com/pic_gallery/Tajik_08Oct1.JPG
Afghanistan
http://www.embassyofafghanistan.org/images/cricket2.jpg
2/Semitic speaking
Jordan
http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2006/11/4/1_653080_1_34.jpg
Palestine
http://www.soccerfiesta.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/palestine_soccer_team.jpg
Syria
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/356/mohand1966teamsyriasiri.jpg
Iraq
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/posts/1215iraq.jpg
Egypt
http://www.livesoccertv.com/images/articles/Egypt%20national%20footbaall%20team.jpg
Libya
http://www.libyanet.com/s02mar00.jpg
Algeria
http://www.elmoudjahid.com/en/thumbnail.php?file=/en_victoir_07062009_866839930.jpg&size=article_medium
Morocco
http://nationscup.mtnfootball.com/content/morocco.jpg

[bleck]

R1a1 isn't just Indo European. It was brought to India by Dravidians as well most likely.

Anyways I hate to tell you that I told you so, that West Iranians were more Middle Eastern.

Maybe thats what caused Diablo Blanco to shut his site down?:D



http://karakalpak.com/images/genetic00.jpg


Where'd you get that from?

[EliasAlucard]

R1a1 isn't just Indo European. It was brought to India by Dravidians as well most likely.Source?
Anyways I hate to tell you that I told you so, that West Iranians were more Middle Eastern.http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/recent.png

I'm the one listed as "Mid East?"
Where'd you get that from?It's originally from Cavalli-Sforza's History and Geography of Human Genes.

[turboratur]

There are not enough studings of Iranian's gens ( Y or mt DNA ) . I haven't seen Iranian YDNA maps yet but you speek about it !

[Polako]

I borrowed an awesome book from the university library up the road. Not sure if it's available online as a PDF anywhere. It'd be good if it was. Here are some quotes (which go well with what we know about R1a1 in Europe, and its presence in various ancient remains from Corded Ware Germany to early Bronze Age western China).


It could be stated, to summarize, that the Iranian-speaking Scythians and Saka were descendants of the steppe population of the Bronze Age which was divided between two major cultural unities: the Timber-grave and the Andronovo, the latter being represented by two original types; Fedorovo and Alakul. From the Eneolithic [Copper] period to the Early Iron Age there were no invasions of population from the Near East or Iran in the steppes of Eurasia. All migrations, though numerous, occurred within the steppe and forest-steppe zones

...

According to C-14 [carbon] dating, the Andronovo and Timber-grave cultures formed at the shift of the 3rd and 2nd millennium BC on the common base of Eastern European cultures. The main components were the steppe cultures of Poltavka, late Catacomb (to far lesser degree), and the Abashevo culture of the forest steppe zone. The latter culture belonged to the Corded Ware group of cultures of Central Europe.

...

The subsequent development of the Timber-grave culture in the Pontic Caspian steppes was determined by the large-scale participation of the Abashevo culture in the Don region and the post-Catacomb Multi-roller Ware culture in the Ukraine.

...

The close genetic affinity of the Andronovo and the Timber-grave culture tribes became even closer thanks to regular contacts, especially because of the flow of tin from Kazakhstan and of copper ( as well as of finished products) from the Urals. The contact zone lay between the Volga and the Urals. The Andronovan influence reached the Dnieper.

Elena E. Kuz'mina, James P. Mallory (Editor), The Origin of the Indo-Iranians, Vol. 3 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Origin-of-the-Indo-Iranians/Elena-E-Kuzmina/e/9789004160545), Barnes & Noble, 2007

...

I'll do some Structure runs again when I finish reading this puppy. I can't put it down at the moment. :p