ydnas I, M269, Z280/Z283/M458 in central asia

[newtoboard]

What is the origin of these? Slavic influence? Maybe some sort of North Caucasian influence from Soviet times? Other historic invasions (greeks etc)?

Porot slavic contribution to the indo iranians? Or maybe finno ugric contribution to the indo-iranians?

Or maybe tripoyle contribution to the BMAC(would mtdna J2 or U4 or u5 correlate with this)?

Or maybe these were always a part of the indo-iranian ydna spectrum?

Speaking of that are the northern components in central asia inflated due to turks mixing with a third population before they make it to central asiia or a result of slavic/finno ugric influence? Or is it pretty much mostly indo-iranian? I've also heard something about NEU hunter gathrers?

Also what do J2b and M73 represent?

[Polako]

Well, we have Central Asian mummies with DNA markers for blond hair and light eyes, buried with stuff that looks to be of Western steppe (European) origin.

Wouldn't they carry markers like some of the ones you just mentioned? I would say that would be the natural conclusion.

So the more pressing problem is who were these people? Were they they proto-Indo-Iranians. That hasn't been established with certainty yet. It's just a theory.

My feeling is that they were one of the elements that made the Indo-Iranians proper of Central and West Asia. And I don't think the latter ever made it to Europe, except the North Ossetians, who made it to the North Caucasus, which is almost Europe, but not quite.

So yeah, I actually have doubts whether the R1a1a Scythians of the Forest Steppe were Indo-Iranians.

[newtoboard]

Well, we have Central Asian mummies with DNA markers for blond hair and light eyes, buried with stuff that looks to be of Western steppe (European) origin.

Wouldn't they carry markers like some of the ones you just mentioned? I would say that would be the natural conclusion.

So the more pressing problem is who were these people? Were they they proto-Indo-Iranians. That hasn't been established with certainty yet. It's just a theory.

My feeling is that they were one of the elements that made the Indo-Iranians proper of Central and West Asia. And I don't think the latter ever made it to Europe, except the North Ossetians, who made it to the North Caucasus, which is almost Europe, but not quite.

So yeah, I actually have doubts whether the R1a1a Scythians of the Forest Steppe were Indo-Iranians.

Because these are so rare in comparison to Z93+. There have been like what 10 or 15 Central Asian I's found? And that could easily be explained by recent events.

I doubt we will ever know but indo-iranians make more sense than other groups. I suppose some might have been tocharians or such.

[newtoboard]

Also not really related but the Mediterranean component seems to exist in central Asia (about 10% in tajiks). What is the origin of this component? I know people seem to be differentiating between Mediterranean neolithic and Anatolian neolithic but that med component (and Atlantic med) exists all throughout west Asia. Is the med components origin really in southern Europe especially given its closeness to SW Asian (which would be higher without the east African component in SW Asian). But is the east African in SW Asian west Eurasian in origin?

[Vetton]

Also not really related but the Mediterranean component seems to exist in central Asia (about 10% in tajiks). What is the origin of this component? I know people seem to be differentiating between Mediterranean neolithic and Anatolian neolithic but that med component (and Atlantic med) exists all throughout west Asia. Is the med components origin really in southern Europe especially given its closeness to SW Asian (which would be higher without the east African component in SW Asian). But is the east African in SW Asian west Eurasian in origin?
Mediterranean or Atlanto-Med are closer to the other Europe components than to SW Asian, as seen on the tables of Fst distances. That's because it has pre-neolithic western european in it.

[newtoboard]

Mediterranean or Atlanto-Med are closer to the other Europe components than to SW Asian, as seen on the tables of Fst distances. That's because it has pre-neolithic western european in it.

I find western European input into Mediterranean hard to believe especially since Mediterranean is found all over west Asia all the way to Tajikistan. If that is the case there is no such thing as one Mediterranean component and the one in Asia will be different from the one in Europe.

[jalethewhale]

I find western European input into Mediterranean hard to believe especially since Mediterranean is found all over west Asia all the way to Tajikistan. If that is the case there is no such thing as one Mediterranean component and the one in Asia will be different from the one in Europe.

Tajiks are Persians. That's why they have some Mediterranean component. What's so hard to believe about that?

[newtoboard]

Tajiks are Persians. That's why they have some Mediterranean component. What's so hard to believe about that?

They are vastly different from Persians in terms of autosomal components. Higher East Eurasian, higher south eurasian, higher west asian, higher northern european, lower sw asian and lower med.

[jalethewhale]

They are vastly different from Persians in terms of autosomal components. Higher East Eurasian, higher south eurasian, higher west asian, higher northern european, lower sw asian and lower med.

Admixture components are influenced by the geographical location of the population.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Iran_Tajikistan_Locator.png



Dodecad K7b: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0)

Tajiks
West Asian 43.6%
Atlantic-Baltic 21.3%
Southern 7.4%
East Asian 5.5%
South Asian 13%
Siberian 9.2%
African 0%

Iranians
West Asian 53%
Atlantic-Baltic 10.7%
Southern 26.1%
East Asian 0.7%
South Asian 6.9%
Siberian 2.1%
African 0.5%


No, not 'vastly' different at all.

[pakistani]

^ lol that's a slap in the face of newtoboard

[jalethewhale]

^ lol that's a slap in the face of newtoboard

lol I just don't see why he thinks Tajik Persians are so much different. Of course they will be somewhat different but that's normal given that they live so far apart from Iranian Persians and are surrounded by Turkic nations.

[pakistani]

lol I just don't see why he thinks Tajik Persians are so much different. Of course they will be somewhat different but that's normal given that they live so far apart from Iranian Persians and are surrounded by Turkic nations.

He is basically trying to link his Ganga brahmins to central asians because he thinks his aryans came from there, he is just looking at his small beloved northern euro component, not the majority of his south asian native dna. Basically you know what his agenda is, that's why he is so interested in central asian Tajik populations

[jalethewhale]

He is basically trying to link his Ganga brahmins to central asians because he thinks his aryans came from there, he is just looking at his small beloved northern euro component, not the majority of his south asian native dna. Basically you know what his agenda is, that's why he is so interested in central asian Tajik populations

I think he's Kashmiri so I guess that's why he's trying to learn more about Iranians maybe I don't know. Anyway, he's generally pretty rude whenever I try to discuss anything with him. Although he makes more sense then let's say Mac or Asingh do.

[Polako]

Because these are so rare in comparison to Z93+. There have been like what 10 or 15 Central Asian I's found? And that could easily be explained by recent events.

In fact, I think it's likely that Z93 is a more recent (post-Turkic expansion) marker in the Forest Steppe zone, and especially in South Siberia.


Admixture components are influenced by the geographical location of the population.

Sure, but don't forget other factors, like topography, culture and language, because in many cases there isn't a 100% correlation with "as the crow flies" distance.

Modern Tajiks have twice as much Atlantic_Baltic as Iranians, and it's obviously not because they're further away from Northern Europe than Iranians, but because they're closer to the steppe zone, which was a conduit for ancient migrations between Northern Europe and the Altai.

You should mention that to McDonald next time you chew the fat with him.

[mac]

I think he's Kashmiri so I guess that's why he's trying to learn more about Iranians maybe I don't know. Anyway, he's generally pretty rude whenever I try to discuss anything with him. Although he makes more sense then let's say Mac or Asingh do.

I haven't posted almost anything regarding genetics. Don't mention my name in a thread I didn't even post in.

[jalethewhale]

Sure, but don't forget other factors, like topography, culture and language, because in many cases there isn't a 100% correlation with "as the crow flies" distance.

Modern Tajiks have twice as much Atlantic_Baltic as Iranians, and it's obviously not because they're further away from Northern Europe than Iranians, but because they're closer to the steppe zone, which was a conduit for ancient migrations between Northern Europe and the Altai.

You should mention that to McDonald next time you chew the fat with him.

True and that's why Uzbeks have a lot more Siberian and East Asian admixture than Tajiks despite living beside them. But geography and neighbouring populations still play a pivotal role in determining admixture proportions, which is quite normal because almost all populations throughout history have mixed with their neighbours to some extent.

[pakistani]

I think he's Kashmiri so I guess that's why he's trying to learn more about Iranians maybe I don't know. Anyway, he's generally pretty rude whenever I try to discuss anything with him. Although he makes more sense then let's say Mac or Asingh do.

nah, he is not kashmiri, trust me

[newtoboard]

Admixture components are influenced by the geographical location of the population.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Iran_Tajikistan_Locator.png



Dodecad K7b: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0)

Tajiks
West Asian 43.6%
Atlantic-Baltic 21.3%
Southern 7.4%
East Asian 5.5%
South Asian 13%
Siberian 9.2%
African 0%

Iranians
West Asian 53%
Atlantic-Baltic 10.7%
Southern 26.1%
East Asian 0.7%
South Asian 6.9%
Siberian 2.1%
African 0.5%


No, not 'vastly' different at all.

Doesn't look all that similar to me. They are twice as northern as you, less SW Asia, more East Asian, more south asian and less African. Iranians are closer to Turks, Assyrians, Iraqis than Tajiks. Superficial similarity at best.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 20:57 ----------


He is basically trying to link his Ganga brahmins to central asians because he thinks his aryans came from there, he is just looking at his small beloved northern euro component, not the majority of his south asian native dna. Basically you know what his agenda is, that's why he is so interested in central asian Tajik populations

Why are you so interested in South Asians? I only post actual threads about genetics because Central Asia is an intresting location because it is anything but pure. it is intresting because of all the people that have inhabited it. Aryans ultimatley come from Eastern Europe not Central Asia so stupid point.

This thread wasn't about Tajiks. The ydnas I listed are more common in Uzbeks and kazakhs than tajiks.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 21:01 ----------


In fact, I think it's likely that Z93 is a more recent (post-Turkic expansion) marker in the Forest Steppe zone, and especially in South Siberia.



Sure, but don't forget other factors, like topography, culture and language, because in many cases there isn't a 100% correlation with "as the crow flies" distance.

Modern Tajiks have twice as much Atlantic_Baltic as Iranians, and it's obviously not because they're further away from Northern Europe than Iranians, but because they're closer to the steppe zone, which was a conduit for ancient migrations between Northern Europe and the Altai.

You should mention that to McDonald next time you chew the fat with him.

What is the forest steepe zone exactly defined as? Some of the Z93+ might have come with Turks but ultimately they got it from IE steepe nomads imo (ie Indo-Iranians). I would have no problem with your scenario but non Z93+ R1a is so rare all over Central Asia and South Asia and Iran. Plus I don't think you can verify whether the z280+ is indo-iranian and ancient or Slavic and recent in places like uzbekistan can you?

[Polako]

What is the forest steepe zone exactly defined as? Some of the Z93+ might have come with Turks but ultimately they got it from IE steepe nomads imo (ie Indo-Iranians). I would have no problem with your scenario but non Z93+ R1a is so rare all over Central Asia and South Asia and Iran. Plus I don't think you can verify whether the z280+ is indo-iranian and ancient or Slavic and recent in places like uzbekistan can you?

I think these discussions are kind of pointless at the moment, until some meaningful work gets done with R1a1a, both from modern and ancient samples.

What I find interesting is that M458 has now popped up in Central Asia and Siberia, and the fact that there are M458 types that can't be recognized with STRs at present. It means that there could be M458 in ancient skeletons, including Andronovo, which I'm sure had Z283 of some sort.

So, exciting times ahead.

[newtoboard]

I think these discussions are kind of pointless at the moment, until some meaningful work gets done with R1a1a, both from modern and ancient samples.

What I find interesting is that M458 has now popped up in Central Asia and Siberia, and the fact that there are M458 types that can't be recognized with STRs at present. It means that there could be M458 in ancient skeletons, including Andronovo, which I'm sure had Z283 of some sort.

So, exciting times ahead.

I can see Z283/Z280(especiallly z280+) but M458 seems slavic. It is probably a recent introduction or some sort of small, ancient introduction of Northern Eastern Europeans of some sort (ether finno ugrics/hunter gathrers or proto slavs).

Imo Andronovo predeates both Z283+ and Z93+ and the skulls will show up Z645+.

Do you have a lnk to the Andronovo study being performed?