View Full Version : For the Latinos: Do you see your people as a "Raza?"
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:21
I'm starting this thread because I want to know if people from other countries see the majority of their country as a sole ethnic group, regardless of Admixture rates?
I personally see all Mexicans as Raza; this term might be a bit misleading because it literally translates as "Race". But in my view it's more closely resembles the definition of a Ethnic group.
Here it's a very inclusive term, it means anyone who has ties to the country and its history and several ancestral groups as part of the Raza, regardless of how they look. Despite popular belief, most people here don't really use "Mestizo" in their daily speech, they instead refer to themselves as La Raza Mexicana.
So, if you care please explain how are these issues in your respective countries? I've heard both Argentines and Chileans use terms like Raza Argento or Raza Chilena, though I'm not exactly sure if they really mean the same thing we do.
So share your histories, homies.!
Yeah, I see my people as a raza. We share a history, traditions, culture and what have you. We are, obviously, not all of the same race (As distinct from ethnos), but we're all brothers regardless.
I think any Latino here can relate because its something common to many of the groups I've seen.
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:27
Jose Vasconcelos in his book La Raza Cosmica explains how many peoples in the world have come into being through mixing and cultural changes and external influences that are gradually made into their own. One of the examples he puts is Spain, that after being occupied by various external groups such as Moors, Romans, Visigoths, Celtiberians and Native Iberians and Basques eventually made up several regional groups such as Basque, Catalan, Castillian, Galician and somewhere later a single national Spanish ethnicity (or Raza) that consisted in the shared history and mixing between them. He argues that the same happened in Latin America. He also explains this concept of Raza Cosmica is an efficent way to get rid of the Colonial system and stimulates strong cooperation and mutual identification between the peoples of the country.
What's the criteria on what is a ethnicity (Raza) or what isn't? Is it a time margin?
We are the Chilean race here. Absolutely.
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:33
We are the Chilean race here. Absolutely.
Is the definition Similar to what I'm explaining here or is there something missing?
Yes. It is the same thing. However, in here the concept of "Chilean Race" is associated with nazism; the real Nazi party that here has a very small branch. However, there is also the concept of "Chilenidad" (Chilenity) on which the idea is that we are a people with a common history, traditions and identity.
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:39
Yes. It is the same thing. However, in here the concept of "Chilean Race" is associated with nazism; the real Nazi party that here has a very small branch. However, there is also the concept of "Chilenidad" (Chilenity) on which the idea is that we are a people with a common history, traditions and identity.
Interesting, so in Chile that's strongly related to Ethnic Nationalism? Here while it obviously invokes Nationalist ideas, it's not particularly associated with right wing.
Nephilim
2010-03-03, 23:41
Yes. It is the same thing. However, in here the concept of "Chilean Race" is associated with nazism; the real Nazi party that here has a very small branch. However, there is also the concept of "Chilenidad" (Chilenity) on which the idea is that we are a people with a common history, traditions and identity.
Chilean Nazis are ludicrous, they even have had a Mestizo leader who looked more Amerindian than Caucasian and you can see his Muapche features.
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:43
Chilean Nazis are ludicrous, they even have had a Mestizo leader who looked more Amerindian than Caucasian and you can see his Muapche features.
Latin American ethnic nationalism has nothing to do with "Aryan features" and things like that. Just think in a more radical way of what I've been explaining on this thread.
Chilean Nazis are ludicrous, they even have had a Mestizo leader who looked more Amerindian than Caucasian and you can see his Muapche features.
Chilean Nazis don't worry about the inferior Caucasian race :lol: For them, the mixed people is the best. After all, the German Nazis lost, don't they? :evilgrin:
---------- Post added 2010-03-03 at 20:49 ----------
Latin American ethnic nationalism has nothing to do with "Aryan features" and things like that. Just think in a more radical way of what I've been explaining on this thread.
True.
Nephilim
2010-03-03, 23:51
Chilean Nazis don't worry about the inferior Caucasian race :lol: For them, the mixed people is the best. After all, the German Nazis lost, don't they? :evilgrin:
---------- Post added 2010-03-03 at 20:49 ----------
True.
Oh I thought they saw themselves as White and part of the super Aryan race. I seen well I really don't blame them. Well I would rather not be Caucasian that's for sure, the better alternative would be Mongol or Amerindian. Those are tough people but Caucasians different all together.:lol:
Oh I thought they saw themselves as White and part of the super Aryan race. I seen well I really don't blame them. Well I would rather not be Caucasian that's for sure, the better alternative would be Mongol or Amerindian. Those are tough people but Caucasians different all together.:lol:
You do know you are probably 70-99% Caucasian right?
Nephilim
2010-03-03, 23:55
You do know you are probably 70-99% Caucasian right?
I know sadly:(
Decimator
2010-03-03, 23:57
I know sadly:(
No reason to be sad, I'm like 60/70% Caucasian too. La Raza embraces the mixing of the two components (Southern European and Indigenous, in Mexico's case) into a single one, a single identity regardless of percentages. It's similar to Turanism in some ways.
Chilean Nazis don't care for Caucasians. From Europe, only the Gauls count for them (they believe the Conquistadors were Gauls). And for the Americas, the only worth people are the Mapuche Indians.
You should read the book of Nicolas Palacios, Raza Chilena. Nazis love it.
Chilean Nazis
i see us as a cultural world, interconnected basically through language and culture, rather than nationality or race. A bit like the US-UK-AU-NZ-CAN-SA connection, or the Arab world.
Generally (generally) Hispanics don't identify themselves with their "phenotype akins". For example, a white Spaniard, will feel closer to a Black Spaniard than to a white "Argentinean". At the same time, a Spaniard will feel closer to a Black Cuban or a Chilean Mestizo than to a White British.
i see us as a cultural world, interconnected basically through language and culture, rather than nationality or race. A bit like the US-UK-AU-NZ-CAN-SA connection, or the Arab world.
Generally (generally) Hispanics don't identify themselves with their "phenotype akins". For example, a white Spaniard, will feel closer to a Black Spaniard than to a white "Argentinean". At the same time, a Spaniard will feel closer to a Black Cuban or a Chilean Mestizo than to a White British.
Hispanic Americans don't see things in the same way as Spain. In fact, since Independence, Hispanic Americans don't feel connected with Spain at all.
With respect to Spain, the only thing we know is that in that country Congolese are treated better than Ecuatorians and that Chileans are deported.
Yes, we don't forget OUR Spanish heritage, but I bet we aren't much interested in contemporary Spain, full of people from outside the Hispanic sphere, from British and Slavs to Chinese and Nigerians. You can keep them all. All we know is that you preffer that bunch to the Sudacas.
Let's hope you never have a Civil War once again, because this time we may close our doors at your noses :lol::lol:
EiCibaeño
2010-03-04, 00:13
I think I'll be the black sheep here for a moment. While I do believe in national unity over race and even this idea of "la raza" due to a new and shared mixture/culture especially in terms of Latin America, I myself see race. This is mostly because of schooling and general socialization in Anglo society as well as my interest in racialism and the like. I tend not to pay attention as much in DR, mostly thinking Dominican vs Haitian (not in battle, necessarily) as opposed to White vs Black vs Mixed or whatever. I will however take account of the range or lack there of of phenotypes in certain areas in DR because I find it interesting.
---------- Post added 2010-03-03 at 19:14 ----------
Yes, we don't forget OUR Spanish heritage, but I bet we aren't much interested in contemporary Spain
True, though I do find myself interested in Spain of yore.
What is worth the love that many Hispanic Americans have for contemporary Spain? Don't you know what they think about us? Don't you know how they call us? Don't you know that even the Spanish Queen is a foreigner? A Greek! Just imagine. I bet most Latinos have more Spanish blood than her.
Hispanic Americans don't see things in the same way as Spain. In fact, since Independence, Hispanic Americans don't feel connected with Spain at all.
With respect to Spain, the only thing we know is that in that country Congolese are treated better than Ecuatorians and that Chileans are deported.
Yes, we don't forget OUR Spanish heritage, but I bet we aren't much interested in contemporary Spain, full of people from outside the Hispanic sphere, from British and Slavs to Chinese and Nigerians. You can keep them all. All we know is that you preffer that bunch to the Sudacas.
Let's hope you never have a Civil War once again, because this time we may close our doors at your noses :lol::lol:
ORIGEN DE LOS INMIGRANTES EN ESPANA
1 Iberoamérica 1.500.785 36,21%
2 Europa Occidental 872.694 21,06%
3 Europa del Este 735.506 17,75%
4 África del Norte 614.436 14,83%
5 África subsahariana 170.843 4,12%
6 Extremo Oriente 132.474 2,72%
mmmm... parece que con mucha diferencia, la mayor presencia de inmigrantes en espana viene de Latino America , mas que todos los europeos juntos , o todos los africanos y asiaticos juntos , (y eso que los Latinos tienen que saltar el charco)
Dont get it wrong, there has been (and there is) xenophobia in spain (as in any otehr country that has received near 7 million inmigrants in less than 20 years. But outside the working class suburbs , where economic struggle is hard, specially since the crisis, there aren't really issues. I mean, there are neo nazi gangs, but there are also LAting Kings, and many other gangs, as in any other major city with lots of working class people and lots of inmigrants.
The perception in Spain about Hispanic people is positive. And people DO feel much closer to Hispani inmigrants than to Senegalese or Moroccans , for example. If you go there and ask the Hispanics in spain, the ones who have lived there for long years, most of thema re very happy with their integration (remember that spanish people dont have much problems with inter marriage with other Ethnicities)
I know it because i have worked in several organizations helping inmigrants in Spain and i have been an inmigrant myslef in several countries. Comparatively, Inmigrants in spain are happier than in the other cpountries i have lived (of course they would be happier at home, but their countries are a mess, that's why they leave right?)
final point. Chilean inmigration in spain is insignificant. Not many chileans living in spain compared with other Latin Countries. (Chilean economy is stronger) The chileans i know in spain, however, are fully integrated and have nice jobs
EiCibaeño
2010-03-04, 00:38
Don't you know what they think about us?
Yeah, dirty Sudacas!:lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-03 at 19:39 ----------
ORIGEN DE LOS INMIGRANTES EN ESPANA
1 Iberoamérica 1.500.785 36,21%
2 Europa Occidental 872.694 21,06%
3 Europa del Este 735.506 17,75%
4 África del Norte 614.436 14,83%
5 África subsahariana 170.843 4,12%
6 Extremo Oriente 132.474 2,72%
mmmm... parece que con mucha diferencia, la mayor presencia de inmigrantes en espana viene de Latino America , mas que todos los europeos juntos , o todos los africanos y asiaticos juntos , (y eso que los Latinos tienen que saltar el charco)
Dont get it wrong, there has been (and there is) xenophobia in spain (as in any otehr country that has received near 7 million inmigrants in less than 20 years. But outside the working class suburbs , where economic struggle is hard, specially since the crisis, there aren't really issues. I mean, there are neo nazi gangs, but there are also LAting Kings, and many other gangs, as in any other major city with lots of working class people and lots of inmigrants.
The perception in Spain about Hispanic people is positive. And people DO feel much closer to Hispani inmigrants than to Senegalese or Moroccans , for example. If you go there and ask the Hispanics in spain, the ones who have lived there for long years, most of thema re very happy with their integration (remember that spanish people dont have much problems with inter marriage with other Ethnicities)
People treated me well enough during my short stay in Barcelona. This is only my short experience. They didn't even make fun of my accent.:lol:
Yeah, dirty Sudacas!:lol:
Thats not true. outside the far right movements, and specially in the working class neighborhoods where poor and uneducated spaniards feel their jobs threatened by the massive inmigrations of the recent years, Spaniards dont see Latin Americans as "dirty Sudacas". All the opposite, they see them as brotehrs, and yet today, they feel much closerto them than to the other Europeans. Actually, in spain, the "euro consciousness " is something very recient,more of a political thing. Most spaniards see themselves are very distant from the Europeans (specially the northern and eastern, not so distant from the Italians and Portuguese)
Yes we do too but we don't really use the term raza, we use more the term tico as a substitute for it and everyone feels like if they are of one race I think that's one factor of what made the country prevent civil wars and what made it go forward.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-04, 00:45
Thats not true. outside the far right movements, and specially in the working class neighborhoods where poor and uneducated spaniards feel their jobs threatened by the massive inmigrations of the recent years, Spaniards dont see Latin Americans as "dirty Sudacas". All the opposite, they see them as brotehrs, and yet today, they feel much closerto them than to the other Europeans. Actually, in spain, the "euro consciousness " is something very recient,more of a political thing. Most spaniards see themselves are very distant from the Europeans (specially the northern and eastern, not so distant from the Italians and Portuguese)
It was a joke, like I said I had a good time. I arrived in Barcelona at 3am and some random late 20's professional looking guy led me around the city helping me find my hostel. Everyone was nice. The only time I got talked to in a less than happy manner was when I asked a cop for directions in English. I was with a Anglo friend it slipped my mind and as soon as I spoke Spanish he was much more warm to my request.:lol:
Really, Hispanics in spain are generally fully accepted and well treated . Plus, spain is a multi national country, and for a Catalan person, A chilean is as similar and at the same time as different as an Andalusian. Bear that in mind. And we DO have a lot of accent jokes in Spain. Both with our very singular national accents (galician, andalusian, castilan, catalan canarian etc) and with the Hispanic ones (specially argentinean , cuban and mexican)
---------- Post added 2010-03-04 at 00:51 ----------
It was a joke, like I said I had a good time. I arrived in Barcelona at 3am and some random late 20's professional looking guy led me around the city helping me find my hostel. Everyone was nice. The only time I got talked to in a less than happy manner was when I asked a cop for directions in English. I was with a Anglo friend it slipped my mind and as soon as I spoke Spanish he was much more warm to my request.:lol:
Lol, this is because Spaniards dont usually speak english, plus they feel insulted when someone adresses them in English in their country without asking first "do you speak english?"
You see, Spain is no india. WE have brittish inmigrants, not the other way round. Lol, they want english? well i guess they might find some receptionist in hotels and airports and even some "yes sir (es todo lo que se decir)" waiters in the southern coast restaurants
But most spaniards feel Spanish is enough, the same way most Brits and Americans seem to think "English is enough". They often get very pissed in spain "WHY these spaniards don't speak our language in their country, who do they think they are??? lol"
LOL well, in Barcelona they are proud of their multilingual society, however, mulilingual means Catalan and Spanish (and yeah, then, a little english too):D
final point. Chilean inmigration in spain is insignificant. Not many chileans living in spain compared with other Latin Countries. (Chilean economy is stronger) The chileans i know in spain, however, are fully integrated and have nice jobs
Yes. Not many Chileans migrate these times, but you are deporting our TOURISTS :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Zfpg9ey0s
http://www.chilenos.ru/page_85.htm
This is something widely known in Chile.
Yes. Not many Chileans migrate these times, but you are deporting our TOURISTS :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Zfpg9ey0s
http://www.chilenos.ru/page_85.htm
This is something widely known in Chile.
Dont be so mean about some bad decisions of our polititians. Believe me , we are the ones who suffer them the most ( we have probably one of the worst and most corrupt politic classes in Europe, at least among the 6 big countries, only Italians have worse politicians)
:(
plus that random deporttings of chileans already stopped.
Yeah! People here was asking to deport randomly Spanish tourists! Just imagine how would you feel if some of your fellow countrypeople were treated like criminals and deported. Just because they wanted to take a plane to know Argentina!
Decimator
2010-03-04, 03:00
Here the ignorant perception amongst some indigenist circles is that Spain just came to colonize and rob us. But that's not in the mind of common people. Indigenists are basically the representation of what la Raza stands against (similar to other forms of specific nationalism, White nationalism, etc.). Most people see Spaniards as a distant related group with some things in common, but also something of the past. People here see different themselves from Spain. Another funny fact is that Basque surnames are way more common here than they are in Spain as a whole (excluding generic ones like Aguirre or García). For example in my family there's a few Ibarra, Navarro, Noyola, Zavala, etc.
On the other hand, I don't think Spanish people is particularly hostile to Mexicans, I don't think there are many Mexicans in Spain.
Well, make a distinction. The Spanish Empire robbed the Americas, but Spanish people in Spain didn't see any of that money at all. The Spanish Empire wasted the money in Wars, in financing the Pope and in supporting that family of parasites that was that Spanish dinasty that I don't remember the name!
I know it because i have worked in several organizations helping inmigrants in Spain and i have been an inmigrant myslef in several countries.
How did these organizations help immigrants?
How did these organizations help immigrants?
they are generally council based and non profitable,they provide useful information, assist in the search for job, help with legal issues, monitor their integration, provide psychological help if needed, and also give language and cultural lessons (here's where i came , as i was a volunteer teacher of Castellano)
Why Spain need immigrants? People has forgotten to reproduce?
Why Spain need immigrants? People has forgotten to reproduce?
They don't need immigrants considering the high unemployment rate (especially among immigrants). But the leftists need voters.
I have many questions for Aguirre but this isn't the thread for it. So I take my leave.
Why Spain need immigrants? People has forgotten to reproduce?
before the crisis, Spain has been the country which has been expanding his economy more within the eurozone. But since the industrialization, and as a consequence of a dramatic increase in the quality of life,health,and the rise of the cost of life as well as a change of mentality towards a more individualistic and capitalistic approach, in the same way than the other big european countries , it has suffered of a decline on its birth rate. (by the year 2000 already one of the lowest in the world) over the last 30 years (but specially in the last 10) spain has attracted more inmigrants than any other country in the world (except for the US) The population of Spain in 2000 was 39 million while today's near 48, according to last estimations.
Immigrants helped covering all the jobs that Spaniards did not want to make anymore (agriculture, among others) and also helped during the booming of the construction sector (which eventually turned to be one of the sectors that lead Spain into its crisis, like JApan ,and unlike UK , France and GErmany when it was more of a Banking crisis)
Decimator
2010-03-04, 03:49
before the crisis, Spain has been the country which has been expanding his economy more within the eurozone. But since the industrialization, and as a consequence of a dramatic increase in the quality of life,health,and the rise of the cost of life as well as a change of mentality towards a more individualistic and capitalistic approach, in the same way than the other big european countries , it has suffered of a decline on its birth rate. (by the year 2000 already one of the lowest in the world) over the last 30 years (but specially in the last 10) spain has attracted more inmigrants than any other country in the world (except for the US) The population of Spain in 2000 was 39 million while today's near 48, according to last estimations.
Immigrants helped covering all the jobs that Spaniards did not want to make anymore (agriculture, among others) and also helped during the booming of the construction sector (which eventually turned to be one of the sectors that lead Spain into its crisis, like JApan ,and unlike UK , France and GErmany when it was more of a Banking crisis)
I just hope Immigration doesn't devastate your country, like in France where every four french dudes there's a black dude or an Algerian. I actually like Spain and the Natives there.
They don't need immigrants considering the high unemployment rate (especially among immigrants). But the leftists need voters.
I have many questions for Aguirre but this isn't the thread for it. So I take my leave.
unemployment rates vary enormously among the different Spanish nationalities/autonomous Regions. Andalucia and Canary Islands, for example,have a tremendous unemployment due to the crisis in the tourism and construction sectors, while other regions (such as madrid or catalonia) havent seen such an increase due to have a more diversified economy. Some regions (such as navarra, rioja, basque country and Castilla y Leon) haven't even feel the crisis so far.
plus, the leftist policies have had nothing to do with the mas immigration (the biggest part of the immigrants arrived during the spanish boom, when the right wing liberals were in the government) and it was just a matter of people from poor countries who finally found a better alternative than grey and overcrowded Britain. (actually near a million of this immigrants came from UK lol)
In my mind it's comparable to the African American "race" in the sense that mulattoes up to 87.5% white were and are still called "Black" or "Negro" on official race records. Yet regardless of skin shade and oftentimes heavy admixture with white and/or amerindian, we all regard ourselves as a single "race" of AA's bound by shared experience and culture. It's just this uniquely American concept only exists as opposing t0 the "White" race of America, while Hispanic identities are by whole nation vs. other nations and especially non-latinos.
Decimator
2010-03-04, 06:05
In my mind it's comparable to the African American "race" in the sense that mulattoes up to 87.5% white were and are still called "Black" or "Negro" on official race records. Yet regardless of skin shade and oftentimes heavy admixture with white and/or amerindian, we all regard ourselves as a single "race" of AA's bound by shared experience and culture. It's just this uniquely American concept only exists as opposing t0 the "White" race of America, while Hispanic identities are by whole nation vs. other nations and especially non-latinos.
Something like that, yeah. Except people here don't identify as white or amerindian regardless of admixture but what their consider to be their greater National Raza. Some people here argue that Sephardi Jews or Conversos also form part of the greater national ethnos because they contributed to admixture and many costumes/food we have here today.
What is worth the love that many Hispanic Americans have for contemporary Spain? Don't you know what they think about us? Don't you know how they call us? Don't you know that even the Spanish Queen is a foreigner? A Greek! Just imagine. I bet most Latinos have more Spanish blood than her.
Many Latinos see Spain as 'la madre patria' , my motherland is Mexico!
---------- Post added 2010-03-03 at 22:34 ----------
Spaniards dont see Latin Americans as "dirty Sudacas". All the opposite, they see them as brotehrs, and yet today, they feel much closerto them than to the other Europeans.
Actually, in spain, the "euro consciousness " is something very recient,more of a political thing. Most spaniards see themselves are very distant from the Europeans (specially the northern and eastern, not so distant from the Italians and Portuguese)
I wonder if your paisano Perikolez agrees with you.:lol:
The way you're describing it, no. Raza in Cuba is equivalent to national identity
"Ni blancos, negros, chino, o indio solamente: la raza." ..so anyone who is entirely of Chinese ancestry is still part of la raza. In the 19th/20th century it was used to describe something like your describing, mulato-mestizaje, but this was dismissed by some nationalists (upheld by others)..
There are some who embrace mestizaje, the song "Somos Cubanos" kind of illustrates that, but most interpret it only on a cultural level, imo.
With Brazil considering immigration it's too difficult to discuss..
Hispanic Americans don't see things in the same way as Spain. In fact, since Independence, Hispanic Americans don't feel connected with Spain at all.
With respect to Spain, the only thing we know is that in that country Congolese are treated better than Ecuatorians and that Chileans are deported.
Yes, we don't forget OUR Spanish heritage, but I bet we aren't much interested in contemporary Spain, full of people from outside the Hispanic sphere, from British and Slavs to Chinese and Nigerians. You can keep them all. All we know is that you preffer that bunch to the Sudacas.
Let's hope you never have a Civil War once again, because this time we may close our doors at your noses :lol::lol:
Un fuerte aplauso pa' la voz de los hispano-americanos :thumbsup:
You realize that many of us have (great) grand-parents or even parents who immigrated from Spain. We aren't all the products of colonizers shagging indias and slaves.
Decimator
2010-03-04, 10:49
The way you're describing it, no. Raza in Cuba is equivalent to national identity
"Ni blancos, negros, chino, o indio solamente: la raza." ..so anyone who is entirely of Chinese ancestry is still part of la raza. In the 19th/20th century it was used to describe something like your describing, mulato-mestizaje, but this was dismissed by some nationalists (upheld by others)..
There are some who embrace mestizaje, the song "Somos Cubanos" kind of illustrates that, but most interpret it only on a cultural level, imo.
With Brazil considering immigration it's too difficult to discuss..
Un fuerte aplauso pa' la voz de los hispano-americanos :thumbsup:
You realize that many of us have (great) grand-parents or even parents who immigrated from Spain. We aren't all the products of colonizers shagging indias and slaves.
I have 2 recent Basque ancestor actually (2 great grandparents), not many Mexicans can say that but I don't really embrace it on a higher level, I rarely ever mention it. I hope you notice what you said don't really contradicts what I said, I hope you notice that. For me everyone who has contributed in several way to this country is part of it. Hence why I consider Sephardi Jews/Conversos a part of it too.
So those Spaniards that didn't shag any indian, like you said, might be part of your countries Raza, but not mine.
i realy dont think cubans and argentinians or californians and bolivians are closer ethnically and culturally than they are to spaniards. They are all diferent, they are all connected. Plus, i am not sure if any latin american country (except maybe US and MExico) have as many Latin American inmigration on it as Spain does. I don't know about all my countrymen, but most of the ones that i DO know, feel much more related and closer to Argentianians, Chileans, UHruguaians or Mexicans than they do to GErmans, Swedes, Brittish or Poles (and this is only obvious since latin america is largely populated by our descents, mixed with all types of peoples, from natives, to africans, asians etc.
Decimator
2010-03-04, 11:13
i realy dont think cubans and argentinians or californians and bolivians are closer ethnically and culturally than they are to spaniards. They are all diferent, they are all connected. Plus, i am not sure if any latin american country (except maybe US and MExico) have as many Latin American inmigration on it as Spain does. I don't know about all my countrymen, but most of the ones that i DO know, feel much more related and closer to Argentianians, Chileans, UHruguaians or Mexicans than they do to GErmans, Swedes, Brittish or Poles (and this is only obvious since latin america is largely populated by our descents, mixed with all types of peoples, from natives, to africans, asians etc.
How many Mexicans are there in Spain?
http://www.mexicanosenespana.es/
http://www.mexicanos.com.es/
I dont know how many, estimations say that no less than twenty thousand registered, although there are also many students, and relocated professionals that still aren't part of the census
Mexicans form one of the smallest communities of Americans in Spain, since they traditionally prefer to go north to their old States now US terriory (there are even more US citizens in spain than mexicans) but the trend is growing.
Mexicans in Spain are loved and respected, and also fully integrated. There is a similar community of contemporary Spaniards in Mexico (like Mexicans in Spain, Spaniards in Mexico relocate for the love of the country, for "becas de estudios" or for bein relocatedn their jobs)
my father lived 10 years in mexico, for example
Decimator
2010-03-04, 11:37
http://www.mexicanosenespana.es/
http://www.mexicanos.com.es/
I dont know how many, estimations say that no less than twenty thousand registered, although there are also many students, and relocated professionals that still aren't part of the census
Mexicans form one of the smallest communities of Americans in Spain, since they traditionally prefer to go north to their old States now US terriory (there are even more US citizens in spain than mexicans) but the trend is growing.
Mexicans in Spain are loved and respected, and also fully integrated. There is a similar community of contemporary Spaniards in Mexico (like Mexicans in Spain, Spaniards in Mexico relocate for the love of the country, for "becas de estudios" or for bein relocatedn their jobs)
my father lived 10 years in mexico, for example
I see, I imagine most Mexicans in Spain are rich boys. Are there Mexicans in Latin Kings or is that just a Dominican thing?
Latin King bands are formed mainly from Ecuatorean, and Clombians. I Dont think there are many mexicans if any at all. I know the origin of the latin kings is caribean, but other latin american youths from working class areas identify with them due to TV culture and peer groups (a little like some Blacks in UK that behave like MTV rappers) There are even many young spaniards also from low social class that join Latin King gans . If you ask me, all these Teenage and youngster gangs (lating kings, rappers, red skins, nazis etc) are much about the same. Lonely youngs that are desperate to fit somewhere :whoco: can't blame them tho. We would need to change a lotta things starting for their parents and the education and also the media
...
You realize that many of us have (great) grand-parents or even parents who immigrated from Spain. We aren't all the products of colonizers shagging indias and slaves.
I also do, with a Spanish great-grandfather. But that's worthless. Either you identify with your country, carajo, or move back to Spain. :mad:
But yes. Cuba is independent too recently, unlike countries like mine, that have a national identity which is 2 centuries old already.
I also do, with a Spanish great-grandfather. But that's worthless. Either you identify with your country, carajo, or move back to Spain. :mad:
But yes. Cuba is independent too recently, unlike countries like mine, that have a national identity which is 2 centuries old already.
All the chileans i know could'nt shit without telling me how they felt they were almost as Spanish as i am (logical, since all of them ahd grandfathers, or great grand fathers that came from spain and were raised up in a culture derived of that of spaniards) and even many of them were BAsque NAtionalists (lol, no kidding here)
Many of the most fierce spanish nationalists of all short that i have met were latin americans, and many of the most "latin american" loving people that i have met were actually spaniards.
(i, for instance, have more sense of Hispanic identity rather than Spaniard identity)
All the chileans i know could'nt shit without telling me how they felt they were almost as Spanish as i am (logical, since all of them ahd grandfathers, or great grand fathers that came from spain and were raised up in a culture derived of that of spaniards) and even many of them were BAsque NAtionalists (lol, no kidding here)
No wonder, Hispanic Americans are mostly Spanish in genetics. That's also my case.
Many of the most fierce spanish nationalists of all short that i have met were latin americans, and many of the most "latin american" loving people that i have met were actually spaniards.
Sure. We have not forgotten our conqueror mentality and it is sad the land of OUR ancestors is invaded by so many refugees and parasites of all kind. :ashamed:
(i, for instance, have more sense of Hispanic identity rather than Spaniard identity)
Interesting, but you have no Indian blood though :confused:
No i have no Indian blood, and as far as i am concerned, not all Latin americans do. Plus LAtin america is not only about the Indian component, whose importance varies greaty among regions and countries (some Latin american regions are rpedominantly native, other predominantly european , some african, and many mestizo, mulatto etc,)IMO Hispanidad is more a cultural and linguistic link . For me Spain, is just and administrative state, but Spanish is not my identity. Basque? yes, Iberian? yes Hispanic? yes all those terms refer to different grades of ethnic and cultural affiliation, but Spanish? thats just a passport. I don't feel closer to Catalanns or Andalusians that i do to Portuguese or Chileans. All are different nationalities, with their own particularities, cultures and evolution, yet at the same time, we are all linked through our Hispanic culture, and in general lines, we are akin
Precisely. And that's the reason why I don't feel Spaniards or Caribbeans belong to the same bunch than the rest of Hispanic Americans. There is division there. For you guys the Indigenous roots are a curiousity. For the rest of us, those roots are more important than Spain!
El Andullero
2010-03-04, 15:44
I just hope Immigration doesn't devastate your country, like in France where every four french dudes there's a black dude or an Algerian. I actually like Spain and the Natives there.
Or like here on the DR, where there's an haitian for every seven dominicans, making some foolish gringos believe that we're the same thing when we don't even speak the same damn language, and the common haitian is generally darker and more pure SSA looking than the common dominican, which is generally mulatto and/or triracial.
Or like here on the DR, where there's an haitian for every seven dominicans, making some foolish gringos believe that we're the same thing when we don't even speak the same damn language, and the common haitian is generally darker and more pure SSA looking than the common dominican.
Now that the international community supposedly is focused with helping Haiti, do you detect yet any difference in pattern with the illegal immigration?
I don't feel part of any "Raza", is just culture.
El Andullero
2010-03-04, 16:10
Now that the international community supposedly is focused with helping Haiti, do you detect yet any difference in pattern with the illegal immigration?
On the contrary, the only thing that the earthquake have done is to exacerbate the trend of the exodus, cuz' at this moment that is the right word to describe their migration movement. Plus, the aid has been slow to produce any significant impact on life over there. I expect things to get worse when the hurricane season hits the island, due to the fact that the only roof that the homeless people in Port-Au-Prince have over their collective heads is the flimsy one of the few tents that have been delivered over there. It's as if our good-for-nothing politicos were waiting for the shit to hit the fan in order for them to truly do something about this exodus.
On the contrary, the only thing that the earthquake have done is to exacerbate the trend of the exodus, cuz' at this moment that is the right word to describe their migration movement. Plus, the aid has been slow to produce any significant impact on life over there. I expect things to get worse when the hurricane season hits the island, due to the fact that the only roof that the homeless people in Port-Au-Prince have over their collective heads is the flimsy one of the few tents that have been delivered over there. It's as if our good-for-nothing politicos were waiting for the shit to hit the fan in order for them to truly do something about this exodus.
Depressing news paisano. I've been hearing Dominicans here who've come back tell me about the difficulty obtaining hospital care due to this problem.
I get the feeling that the good for nothing politicos over there think they are like some governments in Europe (overly PC/ultra liberal/lefty) but with the resources of a third world country whos people are mostly poor.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-04, 16:26
I get the feeling that the good for nothing politicos over there think they are like some governments in Europe (overly PC/ultra liberal/lefty) but with the resources of a third world country whos people are mostly poor.
They have to be, what with these Jesuit pieces of crap and Sonia the ugly (MIA during the quake in Haiti as we all know). Still, we need someone who will take a hard line stance on these people breaking the law (that goes for the Haitians entering, those letting them enter, and those hiring them).
I don't feel part of any "Raza", is just culture.
Same here.
El Andullero
2010-03-04, 16:38
They have to be, what with these Jesuit pieces of crap and Sonia the ugly (MIA during the quake in Haiti as we all know).
Please, don't bring that Sonia "the monster" Pierre up. Even for a pure negroid that woman is extremely ugly, in fact, the word HIDEOUS wouldn't be enough to describe her. Her ugliness is enough even to make the afrocentrist hardliners around here to look away in disgust.
---------- Post added 2010-03-04 at 12:44 ----------
Depressing news paisano. I get the feeling that the good for nothing politicos over there think they are like some governments in Europe (overly PC/ultra liberal/lefty) but with the resources of a third world country whos people are mostly poor.
Don't worry, sooner or later reality is bound to hit them hard. As we would say around here "Algun dia ahorcan blancos".
Decimator
2010-03-04, 17:46
All the chileans i know could'nt shit without telling me how they felt they were almost as Spanish as i am (logical, since all of them ahd grandfathers, or great grand fathers that came from spain and were raised up in a culture derived of that of spaniards) and even many of them were BAsque NAtionalists (lol, no kidding here)
Many of the most fierce spanish nationalists of all short that i have met were latin americans, and many of the most "latin american" loving people that i have met were actually spaniards.
(i, for instance, have more sense of Hispanic identity rather than Spaniard identity)
If Chileans are so Spanish and have all Spanish grandparents why do they all look like Mexicans? Looking at the earthquake news I feel like they were repeating the footage from 1985 Mexico city, by looking at the people.
well looking at the same footage, they look also pretty spanish to me. lol. i think latino/hispanic, is a culture/heritage, and has nothing to do with race (IMO)
If Chileans are so Spanish and have all Spanish grandparents why do they all look like Mexicans? Looking at the earthquake news I feel like they were repeating the footage from 1985 Mexico city, by looking at the people.
We are 25% Mapuche and the other 75% is European, mainly Spanish from Andalucia. So, we are in average more European than Mexicans and less European than Argentineans. Few people is nordic in orgin in this country.
Nephilim
2010-03-05, 00:32
We are 25% Mapuche and the other 75% is European, mainly Spanish from Andalucia. So, we are in average more European than Mexicans and less European than Argentineans. Few people is nordic in orgin in this country.
You have Andalucian blood you might have some Moor in you guys. Hi long distant cousin:p
Decimator
2010-03-05, 00:35
We are 25% Mapuche and the other 75% is European, mainly Spanish from Andalucia. So, we are in average more European than Mexicans and less European than Argentineans. Few people is nordic in orgin in this country.
The admixture papers I read said chile was 40% Amerindian 60% European, which is exactly the same Admixture rates Mexican-Americans have (who are mostly from Center and North Mexico). I think it was nomar who showed it to me. I'll ask him when he gets online.
You have Andalucian blood you might have some Moor in you guys. Hi long distant cousin:p
Yes. Arab blood indeed. Once I met a Pakistani that looked like a photocopy of a cousin :lol::lol:
Nephilim
2010-03-05, 00:46
Yes. Arab blood indeed. Once I met a Pakistani that looked like a photocopy of a cousin :lol::lol:
Imagine how many Latin Americans have Arabo-Berber blood in them. Maybe thats why their one of the coolest people:):)
Also it can explain why many Latinos can pass into the Arab world without even raising an eyebrow iamo
The admixture papers I read said chile was 40% Amerindian 60% European, which is exactly the same Admixture rates Mexican-Americans have (who are mostly from Center and North Mexico). I think it was nomar who showed it to me. I'll ask him when he gets online.
Yes, those figures are better than mine. But it doesn't mean Chileans look like Mexicans, simply because Mapuches don't look like Aztecs. I don' know if you guys are predominantly Andalucians, but we are.
Decimator
2010-03-05, 00:49
Yes, those figures are better than mine. But it doesn't mean Chileans look like Mexicans, simply because Mapuches don't look like Aztecs. I don' know if you guys are predominantly Andalucians, but we are.
No, to be honest I don't think most Mexicans are Andalucian descendants. I'd say most of us have distant ancestors from Castille and Leon and La Mancha, Galicia, Basque. Almost no Andalucians, Catalans, Asturians, Canarians and the like. Though I've never found any immigration record about it. I'm just judging by the number of surname occurances.
Imagine how many Latin Americans have Arabo-Berber blood in them. Maybe thats why their one of the coolest people:):)
Also it can explain why many Latinos can pass into the Arab world without even raising an eyebrow iamo
That's my case, too. I have been confused as Greek twice... by Greeks. I have been confussed as Arab by Muslims. And I have also been confussed as Jew by the local Jews :lol:
Decimator
2010-03-05, 00:53
Well... if you want to see the things people have confused me for; look up my guess thread "Guess decimator". I removed the pictures but some crazy answers are still there.
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=687&page=2
No, to be honest I don't think most Mexicans are Andalucian descendants. I'd say most of us have distant ancestors from Castille and Leon and La Mancha, Galicia, Basque. Almost no Andalucians, Catalans, Asturians, Canarians and the like. Though I've never found any immigration record about it. I'm just judging by the number of surname occurances.
Basque last names are very common in Northern Mexico. Plenty of Andalucians,Extremadurians also settled in Mexico. Jalisco area was called Nueva Galicia, it also has the highest rate of Mexicans with green,hazel eyes.
Also it can explain why many Latinos can pass into the Arab world without even raising an eyebrow iamo
I don't see how you come to that conclusion at all man. The same patterns among Andalusian phenotypes are common among all Iberians. I don't think I'd ever mistake the average mestizo for someone from an Arab country.
Decimator
2010-03-05, 06:57
I don't see how you come to that conclusion at all man. The same patterns among Andalusian phenotypes are common among all Iberians. I don't think I'd ever mistake the average mestizo for someone from an Arab country.
Look at my guess thread. The only ones who said Mexican were the ones who were familiar with me. Most outsiders don't really know how can a Mestizo can look. But I don't blame them, most are European so they don't normally see Mestizos, maybe only in a few movies.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion at all man. The same patterns among Andalusian phenotypes are common among all Iberians. I don't think I'd ever mistake the average mestizo for someone from an Arab country.
Because you are in Cuba, and the people in there looks quite exotic in a Mestizo country. Arabs don't look strange in Mexico and viceversa
Because you are in Cuba, and the people in there looks quite exotic in a Mestizo country. Arabs don't look strange in Mexico and viceversa
lol, well I say that as an Arab too. I'm not in Cuba my friend; I live in Canada like I've told you twice before and I'm in contact with Arabs and Mestizos daily.
Well, how many times I have to repeat that people like me confusse Arabs. Besides, I know there aren't many Mexicans in Canada, unlike in the U.S.A. Perhaps you are confusing Mestizos with Mayans from Chiapas.
Nephilim
2010-03-05, 18:17
Lalo people continually mistake me for a Mexican or Native Canadian iam not joking to. People usually ask me also if iam from South America. My friend who is from Boliva and looks Amerind, thought I was Mexican.
Trust me a lot of Latinos do look ME.
Well, how many times I have to repeat that people like me confusse Arabs. Besides, I know there aren't many Mexicans in Canada, unlike in the U.S.A. Perhaps you are confusing Mestizos with Mayans from Chiapas.
There is a decent amount here. They're not Mayans... most of them look more European than Amerindian. The only Amerindian-looking Hispanics really here are from Central America.
Yes I know you confuse Arabs, you called Pakistanis Arabs. :lol: Tell that to an Arabs face. :whoco:
Nephilim
2010-03-05, 18:21
There is a decent amount here. They're not Mayans... most of them look more European than Amerindian. The only Amerindian-looking Hispanics really here are from Central America.
Yes I know you confuse Arabs, you called Pakistanis Arabs. :lol: Tell that to an Arabs face. :whoco:
ME=Can look like Latinos.
In fact Hispanics in Iraq don't even get recoginized most of them are Central Americans.
Lalo people continually mistake me for a Mexican or Native Canadian iam not joking to. People usually ask me also if iam from South America. My friend who is from Boliva and looks Amerind, thought I was Mexican.
Trust me a lot of Latinos do look ME.
You're part Turkic so it's not surprising. I can maybe understand Central Asians, and I've known some Afghans who could pass as Mestizos, but Lebs, Palestinians, Egyptians.. the only reason I think people confuse them is because many Arabs look off-white to them, just like Mestizos. I know people who confuse Indians (the ones with clear veddoid admixture even) with Arabs here too.
---------- Post added 2010-03-05 at 13:24 ----------
Some can, but I'm saying on average they don't.
Nephilim
2010-03-05, 18:28
You're part Turkic so it's not surprising. I can maybe understand Central Asians, and I've known some Afghans who could pass as Mestizos, but Lebs, Palestinians, Egyptians.. the only reason I think people confuse them is because many Arabs look off-white to them, just like Mestizos. I know people who confuse Indians (the ones with clear veddoid admixture even) with Arabs here too.
I see thats because many South Arabians have Veddiod admixture, it even exists in the Bedouin tribes. I guess that could be the reason. I agree, that could be the reason. Lebs, Egyptians, and Palestinians usually look Med.
I agree. But many can also pass as Hispanics.
ME=Can look like Latinos.
In fact Hispanics in Iraq don't even get recoginized most of them are Central Americans.
Most Hispanic soldiers in Iraq are Mexican-Americans.
The general in Iraq and commander in Iraq 2003-2004 was General Ricardo Sanchez {: Mex-American.
A few months after the US invasion in Iraq ,American newspapers were reporting that many Iraqis were confusing latino soldiers for native Iraqis.
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/dawkins.htm
Of course, less sophisticated viewers frequently make classification mistakes, such as the many Iraqis who have tried to speak Arabic to Mexican-American soldiers.)
If Chileans are so Spanish and have all Spanish grandparents why do they all look like Mexicans? Looking at the earthquake news I feel like they were repeating the footage from 1985 Mexico city, by looking at the people.
We look quite different from Mexicans. See for yourself:
http://emoltv.emol.com/actualidad/indexSub.asp?id_emol=4322
Decimator
2010-03-05, 21:35
We look quite different from Mexicans. See for yourself:
http://emoltv.emol.com/actualidad/indexSub.asp?id_emol=4322
No, you don't, sorry. Not significantly. Mexicans have lot variation too similar too Chileans. The only thing I agree is Chileans are lighter on average, because most Mapuches were lighter than Aztecs.
The only Mexicans and Chileans that might look significantly different are the ones with too much native influence.
Some chilean rappers if I would see in the street here I wouldn't think anything else than 100% Mexican:
http://spe.fotolog.com/photo/30/3/117/chile2h/1251047156761_f.jpg
http://80.190.202.79/pic/r/rapsodia/65161.jpg
http://spc.fotolog.com/photo/44/63/65/f246m4n__6u3e27/1224719760819_f.jpg
or are you going to say they're Peruvians? :lol:
No, you don't, sorry. Not significantly. Mexicans have lot variation too similar too Chileans. The only thing I agree is Chileans are lighter on average, because most Mapuches were lighter than Aztecs.
The only Mexicans and Chileans that might look significantly different are the ones with too much native influence.
Some chilean rappers if I would see in the street here I wouldn't think anything else than 100% Mexican:
http://spe.fotolog.com/photo/30/3/117/chile2h/1251047156761_f.jpg
http://80.190.202.79/pic/r/rapsodia/65161.jpg
http://spc.fotolog.com/photo/44/63/65/f246m4n__6u3e27/1224719760819_f.jpg
or are you going to say they're Peruvians? :lol:
Well, that’s one of the most Amerindian phenotypes you'll find in Chile I guess, but the average Mexicans look like that? I don't think so... but I've never been in Mexico, so I don't know much, only for TV and the Mexicans I've seen.
Euro phenotype is very common in Chile, not so in Mexico I think.
Decimator
2010-03-05, 21:47
Well, that’s one of the most Amerindian phenotypes you'll find in Chile I guess, but the average Mexicans look like that? I don't think so... but I've never been in Mexico, so I don't know much, only for TV and the Mexicans I've seen.
Euro phenotype is very common in Chile, not so in Mexico I think.
I've seen Chileans (like the one that appears in the Neo-nazi Chileans documentary) more Amerindian than that. Are you ashamed of your Mapuche roots? Is Chile like Argentina 2 according to you? Even quite a few Argentineans look suspicious to me, not all though.
I don't know much but the Chileans I've seen don't really look Euro, they look somewhere inbetween Mestizo and Southern European Caucasian, and that look is very common here too.
El Andullero
2010-03-05, 21:48
No, to be honest I don't think most Mexicans are Andalucian descendants. I'd say most of us have distant ancestors from Castille and Leon and La Mancha, Galicia, Basque. Almost no Andalucians, Catalans, Asturians, Canarians and the like. Though I've never found any immigration record about it. I'm just judging by the number of surname occurances.
I believe that my parental ancestry (Lozano) is either straight from Castilla or Mexico/Central America, cuz' I only know only of one family besides mine that carries it on this island, while on Mexico and Central America that surname is almost the same as saying Smith on the USA.
Decimator
2010-03-05, 21:50
I believe that my parental ancestry (Lozano) is either straight from Castilla or Mexico/Central America, cuz' I only know only of one family besides mine that carries it on this island, while on Mexico and Central America that surname is almost the same as saying Smith on the USA.
Congratulations, you pass the test for the Mestizo SS. Never ever let the Afrocentric fags fool you. :D
Nah just kidding. Lozano is one of the most common surnames here.
El Andullero
2010-03-05, 21:52
Congratulations, you pass the test for the Mestizo SS. Never ever let the Afrocentric fags fool you.
Don't worry, it's not the first nor the last time that those fools will try to lump me and mines with their lot. But they will always meet with the business end of my machete serrano. :thumbsup::lol:
I've seen Chileans (like the one that appears in the Neo-nazi Chileans documentary) more Amerindian than that. Are you ashamed of your Mapuche roots? Is Chile like Argentina 2 according to you?
I don't know much but the Chileans I've seen don't really look Euro, they look somewhere inbetween Mestizo and Southern European Caucasian, and that look is very common here too.
The guy from that "documentary" if you can call it like that, doesn’t look Chilean at all, that's a very uncommon phenotype here, Mapuches don't look like that.
Anyway, you don't need to attack me... about my Mapuche roots, I have them only in blood, because they are lost in the sands of time.
I'm just saying that Chileans are different from Mexicans; they are not the same as you say.
Random Mexicans:
http://media.canada.com/ff204c0a-f375-4bc5-91b0-f6cc14acdaa1/18mexicans3.jpg
Decimator
2010-03-05, 22:01
The guy from that "documentary" if you can call it like that, doesn’t look Chilean at all, that's a very uncommon phenotype here, Mapuches don't look like that.
Anyway, you don't need to attack me... about my Mapuche roots, I have them only in blood, because they are lost in the sands of time.
I'm just saying that Chileans are different from Mexicans; they are not the same as you say.
Random Mexicans:
http://media.canada.com/ff204c0a-f375-4bc5-91b0-f6cc14acdaa1/18mexicans3.jpg
I don't look like any of these to be honest, although I still think I look like a normal mestizo. They look very Mexican I guess, but more from the South, they would look a bit strange in my area. But most Chileans I know won't. Most Paraguayans neither, like Salvador Cabañas (R.I.P.).
I'm just saying that Chileans are different from Mexicans; they are not the same as you say.
Random Mexicans:
http://media.canada.com/ff204c0a-f375-4bc5-91b0-f6cc14acdaa1/18mexicans3.jpg
Those look like from southern Mexico, Mexicans phenotype varies from regions.
I don't care if Chileans look like Mexicanos or not, but Mexican mestizos are the wealthiest mestizos ,smartiest to.:evilgrin: stronger to 'warriors' , thanks to our Aztec and Mayan blood.
this is what the average older mexican men look like from northern and west central mexico
http://www.decharros.com/jaimecastruita/images/16_jc_texas_gente.jpg
http://seplader.zacatecas.gob.mx/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/_e0u5625-envio-300x200.jpg
http://www.bicentenarioguanajuato.gob.mx/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/img_5285.jpg
I've seen Chileans (like the one that appears in the Neo-nazi Chileans documentary) more Amerindian than that. Are you ashamed of your Mapuche roots? Is Chile like Argentina 2 according to you? Even quite a few Argentineans look suspicious to me, not all though.
I don't know much but the Chileans I've seen don't really look Euro, they look somewhere inbetween Mestizo and Southern European Caucasian, and that look is very common here too.
I think both chilean and mexican lower/working classes may look similar. The differences start with the middle and upper classes, which in the chilean case look more europid than the mexicans.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 04:10
I think both chilean and mexican lower/working classes may look similar. The differences start with the middle and upper classes, which in the chilean case look more europid than the mexicans.
Not according to genetic tests. And northern Mexico wasn't even tested.
I think both chilean and mexican lower/working classes may look similar. The differences start with the middle and upper classes, which in the chilean case look more europid than the mexicans.
It could be true, Mexican middle class in Northern Mexico and western Mexico really don't look much different from the lower class Mexicans from Northern and western Mexico, Mexican-Americans are decendants of poor rural and urban working class and are on average 65% iberian,35% amerindian.
You don't find Chileno mestizos in forbes richest in the world?
You don't find super rich mestizo Chileans with his phenotype?
Rich mexican mestizo Roberto Gonzalez Barrera
http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/004/824/MasecaA.jpg
Roberto González Barrera (b. in Monterrey, Nuevo León) is a Mexican businessman. He is the chairman of Gruma, the largest producer of tortillas and corn flour in the world, and of Banorte, the largest Mexican-owned private bank in Mexico. Because of his prominent role in the expansion of Gruma, he has been often been nicknamed "El Maseco" (a reference to one of Gruma's subsidiaries, Grupo Industrial Maseca). He has also been nicknamed "King of Tortillas".
By this time Gonzalez was a billionaire; his net worth was estimated at $1.7 billion in 1997.
Nephilim
2010-03-06, 04:38
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
Decimator
2010-03-06, 04:41
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
Not for me. Brazil is whiter than Chile.
And no, Mapuches don't look like Indian. Mapuches are way lighter in skin, and less Mongolian appareance.
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
Chile's upper class is probably pure European , thats not the case for Mexico's upper class.Many Mestizos in Mexico's upper class ,remember Mexico is the most important Spanish speaking country in Latin America.
Not sure about the Mapuches, they aren't pure,i think Pinguin said it before. They aren't known for developing a civilization like the Inca,Aztecs,Mayans,Olmecs.
Nephilim
2010-03-06, 04:48
Not for me. Brazil is whiter than Chile.
And no, Mapuches don't look like Indian. Mapuches are way lighter in skin, and less Mongolian appareance.
I mean similar to the Quecha and Aymara Indians not the people of India. Since they live in the Andes they are known as Andid or something similar to that.
I see. Interesting.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 04:52
I mean similar to the Quecha and Aymara Indians not the people of India. Since they live in the Andes they are known as Andid or something similar to that.
I see. Interesting.
I meant Inca, not Indian :lol: my mistake
Not according to genetic tests. And northern Mexico wasn't even tested.
I was talking about looks. It would be really hard for me to confuse a mexican for a chilean.
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
IT depends, if we follow pinguin's logic about meds not being white the yes because Chile received a big influx of germans and croatians.
I've seen Chileans (like the one that appears in the Neo-nazi Chileans documentary) more Amerindian than that. Are you ashamed of your Mapuche roots? Is Chile like Argentina 2 according to you? Even quite a few Argentineans look suspicious to me, not all though.
I don't know much but the Chileans I've seen don't really look Euro, they look somewhere inbetween Mestizo and Southern European Caucasian, and that look is very common here too.
You are right. However, people in Chile don't notice that usually.You know, we are a society basically Spanish-educated, where people grows believing we are a part of Europe transplanted to the Americas. Well,the differences with Europeans show mainly in facial features, particularly of women.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 08:52 ----------
You're part Turkic so it's not surprising. I can maybe understand Central Asians, and I've known some Afghans who could pass as Mestizos, but Lebs, Palestinians, Egyptians.. the only reason I think people confuse them is because many Arabs look off-white to them, just like Mestizos. I know people who confuse Indians (the ones with clear veddoid admixture even) with Arabs here too....
Some can, but I'm saying on average they don't.
You are wrong. The reason why many Hispanic-Americans look "Arabs" come from these factors: (1) Semitic blood (Phoenician, Arab, Berber, Syrian, Hebrew) is common in Spain, and Spanish blood is common in Hispanic America. (2) Perhaps unlike to the Caribbean, to Mexico, Central and South America the "Arab" migration has been very large. To my country alone, we have half a million Palestines. And we have also recieved Arabs, Syrians, Jews and all peoples of the Middle East.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 08:58 ----------
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
Andes people is shorter, lightly build and darker, although with very fine facial features. They look more Asian than Mapuches. Andes people is addapted physically to high altitudes like Tibet, while Mapuches live in a natural landscape more similar to Central Europe.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-06, 12:35
You are wrong. The reason why many Hispanic-Americans look "Arabs" come from these factors: (1) Semitic blood (Phoenician, Arab, Berber, Syrian, Hebrew) is common in Spain, and Spanish blood is common in Hispanic America. (2) Perhaps unlike to the Caribbean, to Mexico, Central and South America the "Arab" migration has been very large. To my country alone, we have half a million Palestines. And we have also recieved Arabs, Syrians, Jews and all peoples of the Middle East.
(1) I don't think it's exactly as common as many people believe, but a lot of the settlers in the New World were crypto-Jews/Muslims escaping Spain. That being said, as noted on this forum by others these crypto-Jews/Muslims had to be marked to physically distinguish them from the Spanish. Dominican Republic received a lot of these Conversos.
(2) Not unlike at all. Other than those Conversos fleeing Spain, Cuba (no idea to what extent) and Dominican Republic (I'm sure Puerto Rico but I know of them even less) received Arab migration in the 19th century who were referred to by Dominicans as "turcos" despite not being Turkish (mostly Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinian). South America, Mexico and Brazil in particular, received much heavier of this diaspora but they remained distinct from the national population compared to DR where most groups (minus Haitians) blend in completely.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 20:45
(1) I don't think it's exactly as common as many people believe, but a lot of the settlers in the New World were crypto-Jews/Muslims escaping Spain. That being said, as noted on this forum by others these crypto-Jews/Muslims had to be marked to physically distinguish them from the Spanish. Dominican Republic received a lot of these Conversos.
(2) Not unlike at all. Other than those Conversos fleeing Spain, Cuba (no idea to what extent) and Dominican Republic (I'm sure Puerto Rico but I know of them even less) received Arab migration in the 19th century who were referred to by Dominicans as "turcos" despite not being Turkish (mostly Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinian). South America, Mexico and Brazil in particular, received much heavier of this diaspora but they remained distinct from the national population compared to DR where most groups (minus Haitians) blend in completely.
Not all, remember Salma Hayek is half Mexican, Demian Bichir too, and there's quite a handful more.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 14:55 ----------
I was talking about looks. It would be really hard for me to confuse a mexican for a chilean.
IT depends, if we follow pinguin's logic about meds not being white the yes because Chile received a big influx of germans and croatians.
I don't believe you, sorry. It's even hard to me at times and I'm mexican.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 14:59 ----------
You are right. However, people in Chile don't notice that usually.You know, we are a society basically Spanish-educated, where people grows believing we are a part of Europe transplanted to the Americas. Well,the differences with Europeans show mainly in facial features, particularly of women.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 08:52 ----------
Interesting, here is the opposite. All people, no matter how blue eyed and blond they are, are completely discouraged to have a white identification and over all, that they are not European. Probably it has to do that 90% of the Caucasian genes we have come directly from the colony and a very small few from recent migrations, so naturally people don't have any ties to Europe.
When the natives move to the cities, it's even worse.
Thanks Decimator! You are teaching me a lot about my own country.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 21:13
Thanks Decimator! You are teaching me a lot about my own country.
You're welcome, closet araucanian
You're welcome, closet araucanian
I can't discus with you, you are from WIKIPEDIA!!!
Anyway, the envy from other Latin Americas to Chile is so evident sometimes, that arguing is useless.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 21:27
I can't discus with you, you are from WIKIPEDIA!!!
Anyway, the envy from other Latin Americas to Chile is so evident sometimes, that arguing is useless.
I am not from Wikipedia, and calling this envy is just a defense mechanism. You equate being part Amerindian as something bad, like if I was slandering Chileans, in the old forum I used to think pinguin was the troll, it seems that in reality the troll is you. You even support Pinochet. Not surprising.
So you didn't answer the previous question: Is Chile Argentina 2?
I am not from Wikipedia, and calling this envy is just a defense mechanism. You equate being part Amerindian as something bad, like if I was slandering Chileans, in the old forum I used to think pinguin was the troll, it seems that in reality the troll is you. You even support Pinochet. Not surprising.
So you didn't answer the previous question: Is Chile Argentina 2?
I have Mapuche blood and Chile is not Argentina 2
And I do support Pinochet; in fact I think that he was too soft with those communists.
Happy?
Decimator
2010-03-06, 21:34
I have Mapuche blood and Chile is not Argentina 2
And I do support Pinochet; in fact I think that he was too soft with those communists.
Happy?
I'll better wait Pinguin, at least he doesn't get all pissy when I mention his Amerindian blood.
I'll better wait Pinguin, at least he doesn't get all pissy when I mention his Amerindian blood.
Is not my fault that you are being discriminated in California because your parents crossed the border escaping from a shitty country.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 21:45
Is not my fault that you are being discriminated in California because your parents crossed the border escaping from a shitty country.
I don't live in California (nor my parents). Though I have some distant relatives there and they are quite succesful, next question. It's also not my fault you think you're European when you have a rampant mapuche face and accent.
If Mexico is "shitty" then Chile is as shitty too, only slightly better.
Hey, wait.
Chileans do have recent European ancestors, an many. The problem here is that they have also LOT of colonial ancestry. So people is a bit confussed as what they really are.
For instance, in the 19th century you could still found some "Indian" towns close to Santiago. Today there aren't indians in there anymore. People mixed, and lost its identity. The only peoples that keep a Indigenous identity are the Mapuches of a specific province in the South, and the Aymaras in Northen Chile. All of the rest have an European-Spanish identity plus a Criollo tradition.
With respect to German and other North European immigrants, Chile received a lot, but the majority of immigrants were Iberians, Italians and Arabs by a large margin. Countries like Argentina or Brazil received a lot more Germans than we do.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-06, 21:58
Not all, remember Salma Hayek is half Mexican, Demian Bichir too, and there's quite a handful more.
I don't understand what you're responding to.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 21:58
Hey, wait.
Chileans do have recent European ancestors, an many. The problem here is that they have also LOT of colonial ancestry. So people is a bit confussed as what they really are.
For instance, in the 19th century you could still found some "Indian" towns close to Santiago. Today there aren't indians in there anymore. People mixed, and lost its identity. The only peoples that keep a Indigenous identity are the Mapuches of a specific province in the South, and the Aymaras in Northen Chile. All of the rest have an European-Spanish identity plus a Criollo tradition.
With respect to German and other North European immigrants, Chile received a lot, but the majority of immigrants were Iberians, Italians and Arabs by a large margin. Countries like Argentina or Brazil received a lot more Germans than we do.
Since I trust you more than that Fedex troll; answer this simple question: Is Chile Argentina 2? Adn you're only mentioning Colonial heritage, that's something most Latin Americans have, but what about your indigenous heritage?
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 15:59 ----------
I don't understand what you're responding to.
You said the Lebanese usually didn't mix with the host population, I just showed examples when they did.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-06, 22:00
We're all mixed brown mutts compared to Uruguay, even Argentina. :lol:
Uruguay is so White no one has to talk about how White they are, unlike Argentina.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 17:01 ----------
You said the Lebanese usually didn't mix with the host population, I just showed examples when they did.
Ah, I got you. Brazil was the one which came to mind, a lot of Arab populations remained distinct. In reality they all seem distinct compared to their near complete absorption in DR (along with 99% of our immigrants).
Decimator
2010-03-06, 22:04
We're all mixed brown mutts compared to Uruguay, even Argentina. :lol:
Uruguay is so White no one has to talk about how White they are, unlike Argentina.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 17:01 ----------
Ah, I got you. Brazil was the one which came to mind, a lot of Arab populations remained distinct. In reality they all seem distinct compared to their near complete absorption in DR (along with 99% of our immigrants).
When an Argentine says his country is predominantly European I believe him, although I know they might have as far as 30% of Mestizos. But that's not the case with Chile, we have a Chilean troll here that takes having Mapuche blood as a burden and gets angry when someone mentions it.
If Argentina is 30% Mestizo, it's only logical to think Chile at least has a double percentage of it, probably even bigger.
Since I trust you more than that Fedex troll; answer this simple question: Is Chile Argentina 2? Adn you're only mentioning Colonial heritage, that's something most Latin Americans have, but what about your indigenous heritage?
What do you mean by Argentina 2?
Argentina is very different from Chile, in every sense; landscape, people, culture, roads, technology, development, etc.
You should come and see for yourself, I do want to go to Mexico and the United States... some day, when I have money.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 22:08
What do you mean by Argentina 2?
Argentina is very different from Chile, in every sense; landscape, people, culture, roads, technology, development, etc.
You should come and see for yourself, I do want to go to Mexico and the United States... some day, when I have money.
I'd love to go to Chile too, sadly now it's not the best moment to travel there.
If this makes you less angry, instead of getting all thrashed this weekend like I usually do, I donated the money to help Chile (around 1000 pesos).
EiCibaeño
2010-03-06, 22:12
When an Argentine says his country is predominantly European I believe him, although I know they might have as far as 30% of Mestizos. But that's not the case with Chile, we have a Chilean troll here that takes having Mapuche blood as a burden and gets angry when someone mentions it.
If Argentina is 30% Mestizo, it's only logical to think Chile at least has a double percentage of it, probably even bigger.
Yeah I'm just kidding around. When I see videos of Argentina the majority of the people look Euro. Even the mixed people look "castizo".
From the quake footage I've seen, there's a lot of heavily mestizo looking people, more than what I figured. Also from the Episode of "No Reservations" on Chile I saw on the Travel Channel confirmed this, but still a lot of Euros and castizos.
When an Argentine says his country is predominantly European I believe him, although I know they might have as far as 30% of Mestizos. But that's not the case with Chile, we have a Chilean troll here that takes having Mapuche blood as a burden and gets angry when someone mentions it.
If Argentina is 30% Mestizo, it's only logical to think Chile at least has a double percentage of it, probably even bigger.
You talk a lot about numbers you read in Wikipedia but you have no idea. There are not official racial censuses in Argentina or in Chile.
Decimator
2010-03-06, 22:14
You talk a lot about numbers you read in Wikipedia but you have no idea. There are not official racial censuses in Argentina or in Chile.
Find me any wikipedia that says Argentina is 30% mestizo. Stop trolling Fedex, that you use wikipedia to say your country is "97% white/mestizo" and take it as literally 97% of your country is white doesn't mean I do.
Since I trust you more than that Fedex troll; answer this simple question: Is Chile Argentina 2? Adn you're only mentioning Colonial heritage, that's something most Latin Americans have, but what about your indigenous heritage?...
You said the Lebanese usually didn't mix with the host population, I just showed examples when they did.
Well, let start from a fact: colonial people in Chile was mestizo, to start with. The Spaniard arrived single and married the women of the friendly Indians. There was also migration from Peru. All the carriers or Yanacotas, got established here.
As I said before, Chilean mainstream doesn't have a heavy Indian heritage but countryside culture, which was mainly Spanish. However, side by side, lived the Mapuche nation that preserve most of its culture intact up to this day.
Lebanese here mixed. Even Palestineans have mixed with Jews here, and Germans mixed too.
With respect to Chile and Argentina, rural Argentina is not much different from Chile. You find the most Euro-looking people in Buenos Aires province, which was were the Europeans went the most. The difference between Chile and Argentina is a matter of degree.
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 19:32 ----------
Yeah I'm just kidding around. When I see videos of Argentina the majority of the people look Euro. Even the mixed people look "castizo".
From the quake footage I've seen, there's a lot of heavily mestizo looking people, more than what I figured. Also from the Episode of "No Reservations" on Chile I saw on the Travel Channel confirmed this, but still a lot of Euros and castizos.
Is not what I have always told you? But Argentina is not that "Euro" either, no matter that is more Euro than here. Remember that Mercedes Soza was Argentinean.
Isn't Chile one of the Whitest nations in Latin America? Of course Uruguay and Argentina are. Aren't the pure Mapuches similar to the Andes Amerinds, being Andid like the Incas?
It really depends who you might consider white. I've never been to Chile but the Chilean people I've seen so far can vary, I would say a great number have at least a pred. European look and some look purely euro but that's just my experience
So people is a bit confussed as what they really are.
All of the rest have an European-Spanish identity plus a Criollo tradition.
So Chileno mestizos don't identify as mestizos?:confused:
Nephilim
2010-03-07, 06:32
So Chileno mestizos don't identify as mestizos?:confused:
Mestizos and Whites are classified together in Chile and its similar to Costa Rica. At least what the CIA Factbook shows
You are wrong. The reason why many Hispanic-Americans look "Arabs" come from these factors: (1) Semitic blood (Phoenician, Arab, Berber, Syrian, Hebrew) is common in Spain, and Spanish blood is common in Hispanic America. (2) Perhaps unlike to the Caribbean, to Mexico, Central and South America the "Arab" migration has been very large. To my country alone, we have half a million Palestines. And we have also recieved Arabs, Syrians, Jews and all peoples of the Middle East.
Whatever, you equated Arabs with Pakistanis. There is no such thing as Semitic blood, nor a Semitic phenotype. Berbers aren't even linguistically Semitic. Where are you getting this shit from? Yes, you received Arabs (not real Arabs, Lebs/Syrian/Palestinian Christians are mainly East-Med in phenotype), but the average mestizo doesn't have Arab admixture, so what are you smoking? Arabs in Latin America mostly mixed with Europeans anyways.
The Palestinian-Muslim influx in Chile is recent. By the way, you seem to treat Filistinis nicely, good job. Better than how they're treated in Lebanon.
and no, not unlike the Caribbean... like I said I'm of Lebanese descent on both my Brazilian and Cuban side. You always brush-away the fact that I'm also Brazilian, not just Cuban.
p.s. there is minor Near-Eastern and barely any gulf-Arab admixture in Spaniards. The only Iberians who I've known to be able to pass as descendants of Phoenicians were some coastal-Portuguese people.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 03:16 ----------
(1) I don't think it's exactly as common as many people believe, but a lot of the settlers in the New World were crypto-Jews/Muslims escaping Spain. That being said, as noted on this forum by others these crypto-Jews/Muslims had to be marked to physically distinguish them from the Spanish. Dominican Republic received a lot of these Conversos.
(2) Not unlike at all. Other than those Conversos fleeing Spain, Cuba (no idea to what extent) and Dominican Republic (I'm sure Puerto Rico but I know of them even less) received Arab migration in the 19th century who were referred to by Dominicans as "turcos" despite not being Turkish (mostly Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinian). South America, Mexico and Brazil in particular, received much heavier of this diaspora but they remained distinct from the national population compared to DR where most groups (minus Haitians) blend in completely.
To be honest, not really, most Brazilians of Leb ancestry are mixed. Only in places with the largest influxes is it common to meet someone who is fully Leb, like rural areas of Sao Paulo state for example.
Lebs settled in the nordeste too, but I've only known two who were fully Lebanese, both were quite wealthy. Plus Tony Kanaan, I think he's "pure" Leb too and he's from Salvador.
Almost all of these "pure" people are from the second (before Lebanon became independent and during the first war with Israel) and last (during the civil war in the 70's/80's) significant waves. People from those two groups were also the only ones able to retain significant cultural traits, the earlier ones were forcefully assimilated, minus some who bothered to secretly retain their culture.
In Cuba however fewer Lebs would marry out (and again mostly with Spaniards and other whites only), but many stayed centred in ethnic conclaves and married within the Leb community. So much so that even in Miami there are a couple Leb-Cuban neighbourhoods.
Also, Lebs of more recent Lebanese descent despise the term Turco and it's common for us to use it as a derogatory term to those who descend from the older-waves of settlers, who are ignorant of their roots.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 03:19 ----------
Well, let start from a fact: colonial people in Chile was mestizo, to start with. The Spaniard arrived single and married the women of the friendly Indians. There was also migration from Peru. All the carriers or Yanacotas, got established here.
As I said before, Chilean mainstream doesn't have a heavy Indian heritage but countryside culture, which was mainly Spanish. However, side by side, lived the Mapuche nation that preserve most of its culture intact up to this day.
Lebanese here mixed. Even Palestineans have mixed with Jews here, and Germans mixed too.
With respect to Chile and Argentina, rural Argentina is not much different from Chile. You find the most Euro-looking people in Buenos Aires province, which was were the Europeans went the most. The difference between Chile and Argentina is a matter of degree.[COLOR="Silver"]
---------- Post added 2010-03-06 at 19:32 ----------
Is not what I have always told you? But Argentina is not that "Euro" either, no matter that is more Euro than here. Remember that Mercedes Soza was Argentinean.
Mercedes Sosa sang in praise of Che. I thought only mulatos support communism. :evilgrin:
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 12:25
The only thing Latinos share in common is language. Thats about all and language isn't a race.
The only thing Latinos share in common is language. Thats about all and language isn't a race.
You are an AA. I don't know who invited you to this party in this thread.
You haven't noticed everybody in this party is Latino but you. :lol::lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 10:05 ----------
So Chileno mestizos don't identify as mestizos?:confused:
Why should chileans identify as mestizos. We are proud to be Chileans, and for us that is more important than to be British :evilgrin:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 10:19 ----------
Whatever, you equated Arabs with Pakistanis. There is no such thing as Semitic blood, nor a Semitic phenotype. Berbers aren't even linguistically Semitic. Where are you getting this shit from?
Berber languages are part of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages, which also include Coptic, Arab, Hebrew, Phoenician and Pontic, among many other languages of the Middle East and North Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages
So what are you talking about?
Yes, you received Arabs (not real Arabs, Lebs/Syrian/Palestinian Christians are mainly East-Med in phenotype), but the average mestizo doesn't have Arab admixture, so what are you smoking? Arabs in Latin America mostly mixed with Europeans anyways.
Bull. What's your agenda?
The Palestinian-Muslim influx in Chile is recent. By the way, you seem to treat Filistinis nicely, good job. Better than how they're treated in Lebanon.
Yes. We treat our "turks" fine.
and no, not unlike the Caribbean... like I said I'm of Lebanese descent on both my Brazilian and Cuban side. You always brush-away the fact that I'm also Brazilian, not just Cuban.
I see, you are Lebanese descendent, so you want to mark the difference with the rest of Arab camel riders. Yes, we know Lebanese look Europeans.
p.s. there is minor Near-Eastern and barely any gulf-Arab admixture in Spaniards. The only Iberians who I've known to be able to pass as descendants of Phoenicians were some coastal-Portuguese people.
What kind of Turks we got here then? :lol:
Mercedes Sosa sang in praise of Che. I thought only mulatos support communism. :evilgrin:
Sure. But only in mulato countries communism still survive. :thumbsup:
EiCibaeño
2010-03-07, 15:45
The only thing Latinos share in common is language. Thats about all and language isn't a race.
No, you misunderstood. We don't construe our entire region (Latin/Hispanic America) as a race, but within each country (or those who think along these lines) they think about themselves as a distinct "race". Now the idea of race is so much literal, but more of a massive grouping who see themselves as one people despite a wide range in phenotype. At least that's how I think of it.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 11:38 ----------
To be honest, not really, most Brazilians of Leb ancestry are mixed. Only in places with the largest influxes is it common to meet someone who is fully Leb, like rural areas of Sao Paulo state for example.
Lebs settled in the nordeste too, but I've only known two who were fully Lebanese, both were quite wealthy. Plus Tony Kanaan, I think he's "pure" Leb too and he's from Salvador.
Almost all of these "pure" people are from the second (before Lebanon became independent and during the first war with Israel) and last (during the civil war in the 70's/80's) significant waves. People from those two groups were also the only ones able to retain significant cultural traits, the earlier ones were forcefully assimilated, minus some who bothered to secretly retain their culture.
In Cuba however fewer Lebs would marry out (and again mostly with Spaniards and other whites only), but many stayed centred in ethnic conclaves and married within the Leb community. So much so that even in Miami there are a couple Leb-Cuban neighbourhoods.
Also, Lebs of more recent Lebanese descent despise the term Turco and it's common for us to use it as a derogatory term to those who descend from the older-waves of settlers, who are ignorant of their roots.
Thanks for the correction, I am definitely not an expert on Brazilian society. I just assumed they were more or less still a group apart due to still being referred to by their ethnic origin. I guess it's just in DR everyone's so absorbed we don't mention those things as much.
Turco is definitely a term of ignorance, but I've never heard any problems about it.
No, you misunderstood. We don't construe our entire region (Latin/Hispanic America) as a race, but within each country (or those who think along these lines) they think about themselves as a distinct "race". Now the idea of race is so much literal, but more of a massive grouping who see themselves as one people despite a wide range in phenotype. At least that's how I think of it.
The pseudoscientific concept of race has a scientific equivalent in the term population.
Now, the population of El Salvador is as real, and can be defined as precisely, as the population of Japan. There is nothing wrong for our people to call ourselves a race, no matter Blacks, Whites or Yellows may get upset. Who cares about theirs thoughts, anyways :evilgrin:
Decimator
2010-03-07, 17:52
The only thing Latinos share in common is language. Thats about all and language isn't a race.
Not really, I would feel at home from La Tierra del Fuego to North of Alta California. You won't feel at home in Africa, not even in Haiti.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 11:56 ----------
You are an AA. I don't know who invited you to this party in this thread.
You haven't noticed everybody in this party is Latino but you. :lol::lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 10:05 ----------
Why should chileans identify as mestizos. We are proud to be Chileans, and for us that is more important than to be British :evilgrin:[COLOR="Silver"]
Because that's what you are? :confused: What has the British do with everything?
I think it's pretty sad Chileans claim to be very proud to be Chileans when they're not even sure if they are Argentines or they are Mestizos :confused:
Berber languages are part of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages, which also include Coptic, Arab, Hebrew, Phoenician and Pontic, among many other languages of the Middle East and North Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages
So what are you talking about?Hindi and Latvian are part of the same linguistic family too, what is your point? My point is the groups are not the same in any way, nor are Berbers SEMITES.
Bull. What's your agenda?
I have no agenda whatsoever here. I'm kind of more aware of the Lebanese diaspora in Latin America, you know? and in Brazil the most tolerant we are of mestizos is when they're working in our sweatshops. :evilgrin:
Out of all known Lebanese-Latinos find me more than 3 that are part Mestizo. Most are mixed with other European immigrants.
Yes. We treat our "turks" fine. Don't call them Turks, please.
I see, you are Lebanese descendent, so you want to mark the difference with the rest of Arab camel riders. Yes, we know Lebanese look Europeans.
No. That was not my point at all, even many "camel riders"
aren't true Arabs. True Arabs are from the Gulf and Bedouins.
We are distinct people, so an ancient Arabian and a Phoenician would not look alike.
Fyi, there are no camels in Lebanon, except those imported, nor are there deserts. :D
Decimator
2010-03-07, 18:08
Hindi and Latvian are part of the same linguistic family too, what is your point? My point is the groups are not the same in any way, nor are Berbers SEMITES.
I have no agenda whatsoever here. I'm kind of more aware of the Lebanese diaspora in Latin America, you know? and in Brazil the most tolerant we are of mestizos is when they're working in our sweatshops. :evilgrin:
Out of all known Lebanese-Latinos find me more than 3 that are part Mestizo. Most are mixed with other European immigrants.
Don't call them Turks, please.
No. That was not my point at all, even many "camel riders"
aren't true Arabs. True Arabs are from the Gulf and Bedouins.
We are distinct people, so an ancient Arabian and a Phoenician would not look alike.
Fyi, there are no camels in Lebanon, except those imported, nor are there deserts. :D
Please don't mention Mestizos. A lot of Leb whores work in erotic dance chops here, you can fuck them for 20 bucks if you want. And you say they don't mix with Mestizos? :confused::confused:
Many of my Brazilian friends tell me my look would be prefered 100 times than the average pardo mutt, this contradicts what you have said.
Pinguin just said he's just Chilean (and that Chileans are confused about what they are, that they don't know if they're white or mestizos, and that they embrace an European culture they don't even have).
Anyway, sand niggers of all kinds are off-topic here, it'd be more useful to discuss why Chilean mestizos are ashamed of being what they are?
I don't think anyone other than you and pinguin (who's been a little weird lately) care about discussing the Lebanese or Berbers.
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 18:23
If it wasn't for the language Latinos wouldn't be calling themselves Latinos or Hispanics. Its a common language, Spanish.
Decimator
2010-03-07, 18:24
If it wasn't for the language Latinos wouldn't be calling themselves Latinos or Hispanics. Its a common language, Spanish.
You shouldn't mind what we call ourselves. It's like if I told you "all you black people have in common is the black skin, you shouldn't be calling themselves African Americans"
If it wasn't for the language Latinos wouldn't be calling themselves Latinos or Hispanics. Its a common language, Spanish.
Do Brazilians speak Spanish on a national level?
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 13:47 ----------
Please don't mention Mestizos. A lot of Leb whores work in erotic dance chops here, you can fuck them for 20 bucks if you want. And you say they don't mix with Mestizos? :confused::confused:
Many of my Brazilian friends tell me my look would be prefered 100 times than the average pardo mutt, this contradicts what you have said.
That depends where they're from, not all Brazilians have the same opinion, but we can drop that.
Pinguin just said he's just Chilean (and that Chileans are confused about what they are, that they don't know if they're white or mestizos, and that they embrace an European culture they don't even have).
He said he was Mestizo more than once before. He now changes his stance to cover-up that other Chileans would rather not identify as Mestizos.
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 19:27
You shouldn't mind what we call ourselves. It's like if I told you "all you black people have in common is the black skin, you shouldn't be calling themselves African Americans"
Not everybody that identifies as black identifies as African American.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 13:28 ----------
Do Brazilians speak Spanish on a national level?
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 13:47 ----------
That depends where they're from, not all Brazilians have the same opinion, but we can drop that.
He said he was Mestizo more than once before. He now changes his stance to cover-up that other Chileans would rather not identify as Mestizos.
Brazilians can understand Spanish, lol.
Decimator
2010-03-07, 19:29
Not everybody that identifies as black identifies as African American.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 13:28 ----------
Brazilians can understand Spanish, lol.
That just corroborates what I said
Brazilians barely know how to communicate in Spanish. Ask them to say "mejores" and you'll get the biggest laugh of your life.
That just corroborates what I said
Brazilians barely know how to communicate in Spanish. Ask them to say "mejores" and you'll get the biggest laugh of your life.
Me Llores?
It's true. Brasileira working in Mexico: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E2y1UlTwhI
She set-up a date to fuck a guy unknowingly, because she couldn't pronounce "correr" correctly, and used the word cojer instead. :lol:
Brazilians can understand their neighbours (well minus suriname and the like), better than Hispanophones can understand them.
@Game theory, but non-Hispanics/Lusophones are considered Latino too if they come from a Latin American country.
Decimator
2010-03-07, 19:50
Me Llores?
It's true. Brasileira working in Mexico: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E2y1UlTwhI
She set-up a date to fuck a guy unknowingly, because she couldn't pronounce "correr" correctly, and used the word cojer instead. :lol:
Brazilians can understand their neighbours (well minus suriname and the like), better than Hispanophones can understand them.
@Game theory, but non-Hispanics/Lusophones are considered Latino too if they come from a Latin American country.
:lol::lol:
what a mistake.
Something similar happened to me.
I was hanging out outside my home with some friends, and then some dude came in a car, speaking in a somehow Andalucian accent, and he asked for a direction this way "Donde puedo yo COJER la calle Magna Vista???", then me and all my friends reacted with a very loud HAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!! because he literally asked "How can I fuck the magna vista street?". :lol:
More like "Mehio rjes", you guys have a weird way of pronouncing the r.
I can understand Portuguese, though. I'm familiar to lots of Portuguese and Brazilian things.
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 19:53
Latinos are cool, except for some Mexicans, those illegals keep coming into the country working but paying no taxes.
Decimator
2010-03-07, 19:55
Latinos are cool, except for some Mexicans, those illegals keep coming into the country working but paying no taxes.
I think Blacks are cool too, some of them make good hip hop and roll good blunts. except for some Afrocentric trolls that think they're da fuckin' uncle Ruckus on internet forums
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 19:59
I think Blacks are cool too, some of them make good hip hop and roll good blunts. except for some Afrocentric trolls that think they're da fuckin' uncle Ruckus on internet forums
The Bass id far from being Uncle Ruckus, more like Huey. No Mexicans like in Mississippi as far as the Bass know and if they do live here only the legal ones that actually pay taxes are welcomed. The others will get reported to la migra if they don't swim back across the border.
Decimator
2010-03-07, 20:01
The Bass id far from being Uncle Ruckus, more like Huey. No Mexicans like in Mississippi as far as the Bass know and if they do live here only the legal ones that actually pay taxes are welcomed. The others will get reported to la migra if they don't swim back across the border.
I just hope you don't call the Migra when you see an illegal, because eventually he could swim back and next time he stumbles across you he might call the Klan, and that won't be nice.
Out of all known Lebanese-Latinos find me more than 3 that are part Mestizo. Most are mixed with other European immigrants.
The few thousand Spanish jewish conversos that arrived in Mexico 500 years ago made more of a cultural and genetic impact in Mexico than the 250,000 'Turco' LEbanese that live in Mexico.;)
Capirotada
http://www.ehow.com/how_2256957_make-capirotada.html
This recipe is said to have originated with Jews living in the New World, namely Mexico, around the region of Monterrey, Nuevo Leon, where a large contingent of Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition settled. By tradition, it is prepared around the Lenten season (or Passover).
http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/011/texas.html
In addition to the Mexican matzo makers of Texas and Monterrey, Mexico, chicken is slaughtered in a special way. In Nuevo Leon, Tamualipas, Coahuila, and among Mexican Americans in Texas, two
ways of butchering fowl is performed. Chickens can only be slaughtered by either wringing the neck by hand or by taking the head off with only one stroke of a sharp knife, and immediately all blood must be removed from the chicken into a container. The fowl is next plunged into hot water to get rid of any blood.
This method is the same today as the crypto Jews performed in the 17th century in Mexico as described by scholar Seymour Liebman. The secret Jews of Mexico in the 1640s decapitated their chickens and hung them on a clothesline so the blood would drain into a container of water. Then the fowl was soaked in hot water and washed long enough to remove all the blood.
:lol::lol:
what a mistake.
Something similar happened to me.
I was hanging out outside my home with some friends, and then some dude came in a car, speaking in a somehow Andalucian accent, and he asked for a direction this way "Donde puedo yo COJER la calle Magna Vista???", then me and all my friends reacted with a very loud HAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!! because he literally asked "How can I fuck the magna vista street?". :lol:
More like "Mehio rjes", you guys have a weird way of pronouncing the r.
I can understand Portuguese, though. I'm familiar to lots of Portuguese and Brazilian things.:lol:
In the Caribbean we use cojer too in that way. I heard a story similar to yours, not sure if it's true, but a Cuban was visiting Argentina and he got into some trouble after asking a couple people "donde puedo cojer una guagua"... supposedly "guagua" means adolescent girl in Rioplatense slang? In Cuba it means bus, so he was asking "where can I catch a bus?" lmao.
Really depends on regional accent and the position of the letter, but mostly if the word begins with an "h" it's pronounced like the way "g" is pronounced in "general" in Spanish. That's why it sounds like we say: Heeoo... when we pronounce "Rio".
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 20:18
I just hope you don't call the Migra when you see an illegal, because eventually he could swim back and next time he stumbles across you he might call the Klan, and that won't be nice.
As an American it is my duty to report all illegals to la migra. Some of those illegals belong to MS-13 and that other gang. They are not welcomed here.
The few thousand Spanish jewish conversos that arrived in Mexico 500 years ago made more of a cultural and genetic impact in Mexico than the 250,000 'Turco' LEbanese that live in Mexico.;)
Capirotada
http://www.ehow.com/how_2256957_make-capirotada.html
http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/011/texas.htmlSo.. Lebs in their little numbers culturally impacted the Hispanic Caribbean and even the Anglo/French Caribbean. If there were Lebs there during colonial times, I think they'd be influential. I thought we had dropped the topic. :p
Decimator
2010-03-07, 20:24
So.. Lebs in their little numbers culturally impacted the Hispanic Caribbean and even the Anglo/French Caribbean. If there were Lebs there during colonial times, I think they'd be influential. I thought we had dropped the topic. :p
In Colonial times you weren't influential not even in the Ottoman empire, why would you be influential here? What are you trying to say?
Believe me, not all Turcos here are as rich as that jew Carlos Salim
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 14:25 ----------
As an American it is my duty to report all illegals to la migra. Some of those illegals belong to MS-13 and that other gang. They are not welcomed here.
MS-13 gang is Salvadorian. But anyway, they do a good job scaring away Black gangs. You can say they're doing the duty all whites want to do but are afraid to. That's one of the reasons White Supremacist gangs are allied with Mestizos in prisons.
In Colonial times you weren't influential not even in the Ottoman empire, why would you be influential here? What are you trying to say?
Believe me, not all Turcos here are as rich as that jew Carlos Salim
Carlos Slim is Lebanese but looks mestizo lol:evilgrin:
http://velatele.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/carlos_slim1.jpg
lalo was upset because the euro forum members classified him as mestizo:lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 12:30 ----------
MS-13 gang is Salvadorian. But anyway, they do a good job scaring away Black gangs. You can say they're doing the duty all whites want to do but are afraid to. That's one of the reasons White Supremacist gangs are allied with Mestizos in prisons.
The Aryan nation prison gang is allied with Chicanos like the Mexican mafia not the MS-13.
Don't confuse chicano gangs with the weaker central american gang ms-13
In Colonial times you weren't influential not even in the Ottoman empire, why would you be influential here? What are you trying to say?
Believe me, not all Turcos here are as rich as that jew Carlos Salim
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 14:25 ----------
MS-13 gang is Salvadorian. But anyway, they do a good job scaring away Black gangs. You can say they're doing the duty all whites want to do but are afraid to. That's one of the reasons White Supremacist gangs are allied with Mestizos in prisons.
Well most people who lived in the Lebanese region during the Ottoman Empire were Maronites... so they were given dhimmi status, not really easy being influential at the time when you're a persecuted minority.
I'm saying that the Jews came in the colonial era when the culture of Mexico was being shaped, so they had the upper-hand. I'm not sure what his point was?
..and yeah, I don't think that, but we are pretty successful in Latin America... there have been more presidents of Lebanese descent than of Italian.. and Italians are one of the biggest immigrant groups in all of Latin America.
I'm saying that the Jews came in the colonial era when the culture of Mexico was being shaped, so they had the upper-hand. I'm not sure what his point was?
Im giving you history lessons.
..and yeah, I don't think that, but we are pretty successful in Latin America... there have been more presidents of Lebanese descent than of Italian.. and Italians are one of the biggest immigrant groups in all of Latin America.
Can you prove that there has been more president of Lebanese descent than Italian in Latin America?
Decimator
2010-03-07, 20:40
Well most people who lived in the Lebanese region during the Ottoman Empire were Maronites... so they were given dhimmi status, not really easy being influential at the time when you're a persecuted minority.
I'm saying that the Jews came in the colonial era when the culture of Mexico was being shaped, so they had the upper-hand. I'm not sure what his point was?
..and yeah, I don't think that, but we are pretty successful in Latin America... there have been more presidents of Lebanese descent than of Italian.. and Italians are one of the biggest immigrant groups in all of Latin America.
Mexico hasn't ever had a Lebanese president. The only one with a foreign surname was Vicente Fox (Fusch, German). We had a rule prohibiting all refugees/immigrants to get into political position, so they won't end up making up the elites like they did in in other places of Latin America :confused:
And the jews here didn't have an upper hand, they were constantly chased by the inquisition.
Mexico hasn't ever had a Lebanese president. The only one with a foreign surname was Vicente Fox (Fusch, German). We had a rule prohibiting all refugees/immigrants to get into political position, so they won't end up making up the elites like they did in in other places of Latin America :confused:
The rule was started after the Mexican revolution that said you must have 4 Mexican born grandparents. But changed a few years before Vicente Fox was elected whose mom is Asturian BORN.
And the jews here didn't have an upper hand, they were constantly chased by the inquisition.
He meant the upper hand in CULTURAL influence over the Lebanese living in Mexico.
Game Theory
2010-03-07, 22:07
In Colonial times you weren't influential not even in the Ottoman empire, why would you be influential here? What are you trying to say?
Believe me, not all Turcos here are as rich as that jew Carlos Salim
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 14:25 ----------
MS-13 gang is Salvadorian. But anyway, they do a good job scaring away Black gangs. You can say they're doing the duty all whites want to do but are afraid to. That's one of the reasons White Supremacist gangs are allied with Mestizos in prisons.
The Bass doesn't care about gangs because they're all worthless, he just wants the foreign gangs out of the country.
Nephilim
2010-03-07, 22:10
Well Latinos are united by culture and somewhat by blood. I believe culture is more important than race will ever be.
El Andullero
2010-03-07, 22:51
The Bass doesn't care about gangs because they're all worthless, he just wants the foreign gangs out of the country.
Just curious, are you a republican?
Decimator
2010-03-07, 23:12
Just curious, are you a republican?
No, he's just an Afrocentric troll.
El Andullero
2010-03-07, 23:14
No, he's just an Afrocentric troll.
Well, that's more than evident, isn't it? I'm asking cuz' the majority of his "brothas" are democrats by default, so that would make him an oddity on the group, more like the "white sheep in da family". :lol::lol:
I have no agenda whatsoever here. I'm kind of more aware of the Lebanese diaspora in Latin America, you know? and in Brazil the most tolerant we are of mestizos is when they're working in our sweatshops. :evilgrin:
Try to pay better salaries, then. You are still doing the same practices since the Phoenicians.
They should be glad "Turcos" were allowed the entrance. :ashamed:
Out of all known Lebanese-Latinos find me more than 3 that are part Mestizo. Most are mixed with other European immigrants.
Sure. As if in Latin America there were many "pure" European immigrants :lol:
Don't call them Turks, please.
Do you preffer we call them Arabs? Or Syrians? And yes, I know the term Turk is offensive... to real Turks. :evilgrin:
No. That was not my point at all, even many "camel riders"
aren't true Arabs. True Arabs are from the Gulf and Bedouins.
We are distinct people, so an ancient Arabian and a Phoenician would not look alike.
Yes. For you guys, but for us that doesn't make any difference. Even more, it is obvious that Lebanese skills on trade is a shared heritage with your cousins, the Hebrews :evilgrin:
Fyi, there are no camels in Lebanon, except those imported, nor are there deserts. :D
That's boring. Just imagine an Arab country without camels. At least here in Andean South America we are proud of our llamas :lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 21:05 ----------
If it wasn't for the language Latinos wouldn't be calling themselves Latinos or Hispanics. Its a common language, Spanish.
Not only language. By blood and culture most Latinos descend from Iberians and through them from Romans. We are a mixed people, true, but we also have a really interesting and amazing pedigree.
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 21:10 ----------
Carlos Slim is Lebanese but looks mestizo lol:evilgrin:
Slim's mother is Mexican. :lol:
That's so funny. It is like saying that Costa Rica's astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz is Chinese, when everybody knows he is not only "Chang" but also "Diaz" :lol::lol:
---------- Post added 2010-03-07 at 21:16 ----------
:lol:
In the Caribbean we use cojer too in that way. I heard a story similar to yours, not sure if it's true, but a Cuban was visiting Argentina and he got into some trouble after asking a couple people "donde puedo cojer una guagua"... supposedly "guagua" means adolescent girl in Rioplatense slang? In Cuba it means bus, so he was asking "where can I catch a bus?" lmao.
.
Guagua comes from Quechua and means baby (bebe). It doesn't mean teenager but a newborn child.
Now, the verb here is "tomar" (to take) instead of coger (to catch).
If I am not wrong, in Argentina the slang for bus is colectivo. In any case, the phrase should be "donde puedo tomar el bus". That's Spanish, actually :lol:
Ubirajara
2010-03-08, 00:23
Slim's mother is Mexican. :lol:
Carlos Slim is fully Lebanese.
"Slim was born in Mexico City, Mexico. His father was a Maronite Catholic named Youssef Salim, who emigrated from Lebanon at the age of 14, and changed his name to Julián Slim Haddad, appending his mother's surname, according to the Spanish-language naming customs. In 1911, Julián established a dry goods store called La Estrella del Oriente (Star of the Orient) and purchased real estate in downtown Mexico City. He married Linda Helú Atta, also of Lebanese extraction, but born in Parral, Chihuahua to José Helú and Wadiha Atta".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim_Helu
In Colonial times you weren't influential not even in the Ottoman empire, why would you be influential here? What are you trying to say?
.
:lol:
It is even more funny, when in South America we know "Turks" hardy can compite in saling cheap goods and textiles with Koreans and Chinese, which have arrived lately and have devasted the "turkish" markets :whoco:
I have also read that Plutarco Elias Calles was of Lebanese or Syrian ancestry thru his paternal line. He was a president during the 1930s or maybe even before. Well, around the Cristero war. I think he closed down the churches for a time. I think that war took place in the 1930s.
Decimator
2010-03-08, 00:36
I have also read that Plutarco Elias Calles was of Lebanese or Syrian ancestry thru his paternal line. He was a president during the 1930s or maybe even before. Well, around the Cristero war. I think he closed down the churches for a time. I think that war took place in the 1930s.
No, that was a lie, they said he was descendant of Ottoman Turk immigrants (very unespecific term) to justity why was he fighting for secularity.
His father being an alcoholic and his parents unmarried, Elías Calles grew up in poverty and deprivation. He took the last name of Calles from the uncle who raised him after the death of his mother, Maria de Jesús Campuzano. Elías is his father's family name, a criollo family prominent in the Provincias Internas, most often written out as Elías González. Calles worked many different jobs from a bartender to a schoolteacher. Calles had a keen sense of political opportunity.He was a supporter of Francisco I. Madero, under whom he became a police commissioner, and his ability to align himself with the political winners of the Mexican Revolution (1910-1920) allowed him to quickly move up the ranks, attaining the rank of general in 1915. He led the Constitutional Army in his home state Sonora, and managed to repel the conventionalists of José María Maytorena and Pancho Villa in the Battle of Agua Prieta in 1915.
He was most likely a weird dude, he used to read Mein Kampf and considered a fascist by many.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Coronel_El%C3%ADas_Calles.jpg
No, that was a lie, they said he was descendant of Ottoman Turk immigrants (very unespecific term) to justity why was he fighting for secularity.
He was most likely a weird dude, he used to read Mein Kampf and considered a fascist by many.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Coronel_El%C3%ADas_Calles.jpg
I knew I had read that some time ago. Then I read it was Lebanese. I guess since Elias is a common surname among Levantine Arabs, some people thought that was his ancestry, without really knowing his origins.
Decimator
2010-03-08, 00:50
I knew I had read that some time ago. Then I read it was Lebanese. I guess since Elias is a common surname among Levantine Arabs, some people thought that was his ancestry, without really knowing his origins.
I think that surname is more likely to be Sephardi Jewish
No, that was a lie, they said he was descendant of Ottoman Turk immigrants (very unespecific term) to justity why was he fighting for secularity.
That would make sense.Lebanese didn't start arriving until the 1890's and no way the Mexican revolution leaders would turn the country over to a 'turco.
Famous Mexican mestizo who are part Lebanese are soccer players Jared Borgetti 1/4, Miguel Sabbah 1/2, Mexican comedian Capulina 1/2, Salma Hayek's dad is Samuel Hayek Dominguez only 1/2 Lebanese etc etc.
Nephilim
2010-03-08, 04:41
I think that surname is more likely to be Sephardi Jewish
Christian Arabs often have Elias as their surname.
Decimator
2010-03-08, 04:51
Christian Arabs often have Elias as their surname.
Same for Sephardi jews.
The pseudoscientific concept of race has a scientific equivalent in the term population.
Now, the population of El Salvador is as real, and can be defined as precisely, as the population of Japan. There is nothing wrong for our people to call ourselves a race, no matter Blacks, Whites or Yellows may get upset. Who cares about theirs thoughts, anyways :evilgrin:
I've noticed that the whole Latino/Hispanic label gets questioned alot in the online world. Alot of intellectual exercising with all sorts of ivory tower theories like:
-Latinos are really Europeans ( Spaniards, Italians, Portugese and Romanians)
-Latinos are only people who live in some obscure European provinces.
-Latinos are only Italians.
-Latinos are only people of Spanish ancestry in LatinAmerica.
-Latinos includes French Canadians, Haitians and people from Guadaloupe and Martinique.
:lol:
Here's an example of the Latino/Hispanic concept at play in real life:
-If there are students from different LatinAmerican countries in any particular college, and there is no club/fraternity/society that is based on their nationality, but there is 'The Latino students club' or whatever, they will most likely join it. No matter that there will be 3 Mexicans, 1 Salvadoran, 2 Puerto Ricans, 1 Cuban, 1 Dominican and no matter that there will be people who look 'white, black, yellow, brown and any combination thereof'.:lol:
However, you shouldn't forget that demographically, and in Latin America, 80% percent of Latinos are Mestizo or Castizo.
However, you shouldn't forget that demographically, and in Latin America, 80% percent of Latinos are Mestizo or Castizo.
Some link?
Decimator
2010-03-08, 17:04
Some link?
With Mexico alone you have at least 20% of the population, I think.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 17:11
I'm in no way saying this is true, but I've heard people cite a figure as high as 1/3 of all of Latin America being "White".
Decimator
2010-03-08, 17:12
I'm in no way saying this is true, but I've heard people cite a figure as high as 1/3 of all of Latin America being "White".
With Brazil, and in minor part Argentina and then rest of minorities from elsewhere, it makes sense.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 17:15
With Brazil, and in minor part Argentina and then rest of minorities from elsewhere, it makes sense.
I've stopped seeing Argentina as White ever since I remembered quiet Uruguay's existence.:lol: I'm joking but Argentina really is the "poster country" for White Latin America for some reason. Just more well known that Uruguay I guess.
Between the Southern Cone (including Chile's undetermined White population) even extending into Southern Brazil and then the minority Whites of the rest of Latin America, you're right maybe. But the term is really subjective anyway. If the question was "how much of Latin America IDENTIFIES as White?" it may be very high.
With Mexico alone you have at least 20% of the population, I think.
Still, there are countries like Brazil or Colombia that have significant black/mulatto segments, even more than mestizos or indians. That's why I'd liek to see some numbers.
Still, there are countries like Brazil or Colombia that have significant black/mulatto segments, even more than mestizos or indians. That's why I'd liek to see some numbers.
In none of them the mulato-black population is majoritary, except in some small regions. In the only places where mulatos are majoritary are in DR and in Cuba. Particularly in Cuba.
Decimator
2010-03-08, 17:27
Still, there are countries like Brazil or Colombia that have significant black/mulatto segments, even more than mestizos or indians. That's why I'd liek to see some numbers.
But still, what countries have strong mulatto majority? They're certainly just a few, except Brazil.
Colombia is very predominantly Mestizo, same for Venezuela, all central America, Chile, fragment of Argentina, Paraguay, Peru.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 17:33
In none of them the mulato-black population is majoritary, except in some small regions. In the only places where mulatos are majoritary are in DR and in Cuba. Particularly in Cuba.
The DR is more mulatto than Cuba, specially since the latter followed a racial regime similar to the US ODR up to the moment of the Revolution. Here on the DR we have a saying that goes by: "El blanco cubano es blanco de verdad", to note the relative unmixedness of that population.
Still, there are countries like Brazil or Colombia that have significant black/mulatto segments, even more than latinos.
Brazil is a giant, by far the most populous country in LatinAmerica. The percentages of who is actually white, black or self-identifies as such is very sketchy due to a host of factors. My best guess is that at least half if not more are of mixed ancestry and/or 'non-white'. This mixed ancestry would definitely include different levels of Euro/Afro/Amerind. blends. I've always said Colombia flies under the radar for some reason in regards to their Afro. descendant population.
Here's my guess at to the ethno. breakdown in LatAm:
1) Those with some level European ancestry
2) Those with some level of Amerindian ancestry
3) Those with some level of African ancestry
The mixed population is the largest, both in terms of sheer numbers and percentage of all LatAm. Due to Mexico's large population, and most of the LatinAmerican countries I would guess mestizos form the largest percentage of those that are mixed, followed by tri-racials (Euro/Afro/Amerind.). This is all a guess on my part.
---------- Post added 2010-03-08 at 17:37 ----------
But still, what countries have strong mulatto majority? They're certainly just a few, except Brazil.
Colombia is very predominantly Mestizo, same for Venezuela, all central America, Chile, fragment of Argentina, Paraguay, Peru.
To tell you the truth, I doubt that even the mulattos in LatinAmerica are really just that. They are probably closer to tri-racial.
In none of them the mulato-black population is majoritary, except in some small regions. In the only places where mulatos are majoritary are in DR and in Cuba. Particularly in Cuba.
And who said they were majority?
For all the exposed above, I'd like to see some numbers.
Chilean Nazis are ludicrous, they even have had a Mestizo leader who looked more Amerindian than Caucasian and you can see his Muapche features.
Ludicrous? Theirs goal is to protect the Chilean race, not the Aryan.
@Nephillin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America
Check the figures. However, the overestimation of mulattoes in Brazil is far out range, and distort the totals, as usual.
Nephilim
2010-03-08, 18:27
Ludicrous? Theirs goal is to protect the Chilean race, not the Aryan.
@Nephillin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America
Check the figures. However, the overestimation of mulattoes in Brazil is far out range, and distort the totals, as usual.
I know man. I love Latin Americans. Their good people! Also I admire Venezeula that actually has balls than any Arab nations. I also love Mexico and its culture. I like the Hispanic Carib areas their amazing. Chileans need a healthy since of pride and who they are. They also should take more pride in their Mapuche ancestors.
Interesting. Brazil is tri-racial its in between mulatto and Mestizo. Also this why the Brazil girls are the most attractive because their mixed.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 18:29
Ludicrous? Theirs goal is to protect the Chilean race, not the Aryan.
@Nephillin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America
Check the figures. However, the overestimation of mulattoes in Brazil is far out range, and distort the totals, as usual.
Is illegal inmigration from neighboring countries a major problem in Chile? cuz' that's the only way in which I would understand the existence of such a group within the country.
Nephilim
2010-03-08, 18:37
Which group?
Chilean Nazis
Nope. Chilean Nazis are old stuff. In fact, they formed in the 30s.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 18:43
Which group?
Even though Nephilim already answered your question, I'll ask you the following: Are the chilean Nazis a Minutemen type group? Do you feel that la raza chilena is threatened by peruvians and alto peruvians (a.k.a bolivians)?
In none of them the mulato-black population is majoritary, except in some small regions. In the only places where mulatos are majoritary are in DR and in Cuba. Particularly in Cuba.
No, mulattoes are not the majority in Cuba. You might say that if you add both mulattoes and blacks, they may be a majority. Which will also be speculation, simply a guess. In Cuba, whites still make up the largest single segment of the population. There is disagreement as to wheather they are just a plurality or still a majority. If you visit Havana city, you will notice that blacks and mulattoes appear to be in the majority. If you go into the cities in Havana Province, as well as the countryside, the picture changes. In eastern Cuba, particularly the southern part of Oriente, (Santiago, Guantánamo etc) Afrodescendants are a clear majority. And there the majority is mulatto. Although in Cuba all people who are genetically tri-racial are classified as mulatto.
I have visited Cuba only twice in the many years that have passed since I left and my impression was the European-looking population had greatly decreased, while the obvious Afrodescending population had greatly increased. One of the reasons for this is that white Cubans have a much lower birth rate than the rest of the population. Afrodescendants in Cuba have a much higher birth rate. Also, all European immigraton to Cuba stopped after 1959, while emigration of Cubans has had a great impact since the majority of Cubans who have left or continue to leave belong to the Caucasian population. Those who have the connections and relatives abroad have a much better chance of leaving, as well as professionals. In spite of this, many black and mixed race Cubans have also managed to leave in the past 10 or 15 yrs.
Now, according to the latest Cuban census, taken in 2002, and whose results only became public 3 yrs. later, 65% of the population was classified as white, 25% as mulatto and 10% as black. Censuses in Cuba are not conducted the same way as in the United States. In the USA, census forms are mailed to your house and you are supposed to fill them and return them by mail. You also choose which race or ethnicity you belong to. In Cuba, on the other hand, census takers visit your house and, following guidelines set forth by the govt, write down the race they think you belong to or resemble the most. What they take into consideration, I have no idea.
But to me, it is obvious there is no way blacks only make up 10%. To me, blacks and mulattoes are not that far apart in their numbers: about 30% mulattoes and 20% blacks. So I would say that today's Cuba's population maybe 50-50.
The funny thing about Cuban censuses is that, sometimes, census takers don't know how to classify some people and have to make a decision based on the categories they are given. I was reading a commentary on the 1980 census, published in the Cuban magazine La Jiribilla, in which they describe how a district in eastern Cuba, which had never received any Chinese immigration, had one of the highest percentages of people classified as Asian. It just happens that a lot of people there exhibited features which the enumerators thought had to be "Chinese or something". The reason for this, according to this article, is that there was still a lot of noticeable Taino ancestry in that particular place. So because the only categories were White, Black, Mestizo and Asian, those people were placed in the category the enumerators felt they fitted best. In Cuba the "Mestizo" category is the one used for mulattoes. In Cuba mestizo officially simply means mixed-race, so all mulattoes are counted as "mestizos".
Just to clarify, Cubans do not usually refer to mulattoes as mestizos in daily conversations. Mulatto is the universal word used. However, when writing or speaking in public, the word mestizo is almost always used. This word sounds more "professional" than mulatto, which they think it is slang or not a dignified enough word to include in public documents.
Even though Nephilim already answered your question, I'll ask you the following: Are the chilean Nazis a Minutemen type group? Do you feel that la raza chilena is threatened by peruvians and alto peruvians (a.k.a bolivians)?
Yes. They do. But most Chilean people don't care about Peruvians, Bolivians or Chinese.
Nephilim
2010-03-08, 18:49
Yes. They do. But most Chilean people don't care about Peruvians, Bolivians or Chinese.
I would protect Chile from the Americans
No, mulattoes are not the majority in Cuba. You might say that if you add both mulattoes and blacks, they may be a majority. Which will also be speculation, simply a guess. In Cuba, whites still make up the largest single segment of the population. There is disagreement as to wheather they are just a plurality or still a majority. If you visit Havana city, you will notice that blacks and mulattoes appear to be in the majority. If you go into the cities in Havana Province, as well as the countryside, the picture changes. In eastern Cuba, particularly the southern part of Oriente, (Santiago, Guantánamo etc) Afrodescendants are a clear majority. And there the majority is mulatto. Although in Cuba all people who are genetically tri-racial are classified as mulatto.
I have visited Cuba only twice in the many years that have passed since I left and my impression was the European-looking population had greatly decreased, while the obvious Afrodescending population had greatly increased. One of the reasons for this is that white Cubans have a much lower birth rate than the rest of the population. Afrodescendants in Cuba have a much higher birth rate. Also, all European immigraton to Cuba stopped after 1959, while emigration of Cubans has had a great impact since the majority of Cubans who have left or continue to leave belong to the Caucasian population. Those who have the connections and relatives abroad have a much better chance of leaving, as well as professionals. In spite of this, many black and mixed race Cubans have also managed to leave in the past 10 or 15 yrs.
Now, according to the latest Cuban census, taken in 2002, and whose results only became public 3 yrs. later, 65% of the population was classified as white, 25% as mulatto and 10% as black. Censuses in Cuba are not conducted the same way as in the United States. In the USA, census forms are mailed to your house and you are supposed to fill them and return them by mail. You also choose which race or ethnicity you belong to. In Cuba, on the other hand, census takers visit your house and, following guidelines set forth by the govt, write down the race they think you belong to or resemble the most. What they take into consideration, I have no idea.
But to me, it is obvious there is no way blacks only make up 10%. To me, blacks and mulattoes are not that far apart in their numbers: about 30% mulattoes and 20% blacks. So I would say that today's Cuba's population maybe 50-50.
The funny thing about Cuban censuses is that, sometimes, census takers don't know how to classify some people and have to make a decision based on the categories they are given. I was reading a commentary on the 1980 census, published in the Cuban magazine La Jiribilla, in which they describe how a district in eastern Cuba, which had never received any Chinese immigration, had one of the highest percentages of people classified as Asian. It just happens that a lot of people there exhibited features which the enumerators thought had to be "Chinese or something". The reason for this, according to this article, is that there was still a lot of noticeable Taino ancestry in that particular place. So because the only categories were White, Black, Mestizo and Asian, those people were placed in the category the enumerators felt they fitted best. In Cuba the "Mestizo" category is the one used for mulattoes. In Cuba mestizo officially simply means mixed-race, so all mulattoes are counted as "mestizos".
Just to clarify, Cubans do not usually refer to mulattoes as mestizos in daily conversations. Mulatto is the universal word used. However, when writing or speaking in public, the word mestizo is almost always used. This word sounds more "professional" than mulatto, which they think it is slang or not a dignified enough word to include in public documents.
Cuba is as Black as Haiti. Who do you want to fool?
I know man. I love Latin Americans. Their good people! Also I admire Venezeula that actually has balls than any Arab nations. I also love Mexico and its culture. I like the Hispanic Carib areas their amazing. Chileans need a healthy since of pride and who they are. They also should take more pride in their Mapuche ancestors.
Interesting. Brazil is tri-racial its in between mulatto and Mestizo. Also this why the Brazil girls are the most attractive because their mixed.
The majority of Brazilian triracials are European > African > Amerindian in that order. And Mestizo? :|... People of mostly European/Amerindian (mestizos as you call them, caboclos in Brazil) mixture are underestimated, I admit, because the Pardo category distorts their numbers... but they are surely no where close to the majority or the strongest minority.. the largest minority would be whites or people who are predominately European/Near Eastern... (whites are still the majority via self-identification).
I don't consider someone who is predominately Euro/African with some distant Amerindian heritage to be triracial..
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 18:59
Cuba is as Black as Haiti. Who do you want to fool?
Not by any stretch of the imagination. Even though Cuba is on dire economic straits and under a communist dictatorship, I'd rather be on Cuba than on the hellish Quilombo Republic that goes by the name of Haiti.
No, mulattoes are not the majority in Cuba. You might say that if you add both mulattoes and blacks, they may be a majority. Which will also be speculation, simply a guess. In Cuba, whites still make up the largest single segment of the population. There is disagreement as to wheather they are just a plurality or still a majority. If you visit Havana city, you will notice that blacks and mulattoes appear to be in the majority. If you go into the cities in Havana Province, as well as the countryside, the picture changes. In eastern Cuba, particularly the southern part of Oriente, (Santiago, Guantánamo etc) Afrodescendants are a clear majority. And there the majority is mulatto. Although in Cuba all people who are genetically tri-racial are classified as mulatto.
I have visited Cuba only twice in the many years that have passed since I left and my impression was the European-looking population had greatly decreased, while the obvious Afrodescending population had greatly increased. One of the reasons for this is that white Cubans have a much lower birth rate than the rest of the population. Afrodescendants in Cuba have a much higher birth rate. Also, all European immigraton to Cuba stopped after 1959, while emigration of Cubans has had a great impact since the majority of Cubans who have left or continue to leave belong to the Caucasian population. Those who have the connections and relatives abroad have a much better chance of leaving, as well as professionals. In spite of this, many black and mixed race Cubans have also managed to leave in the past 10 or 15 yrs.
Now, according to the latest Cuban census, taken in 2002, and whose results only became public 3 yrs. later, 65% of the population was classified as white, 25% as mulatto and 10% as black. Censuses in Cuba are not conducted the same way as in the United States. In the USA, census forms are mailed to your house and you are supposed to fill them and return them by mail. You also choose which race or ethnicity you belong to. In Cuba, on the other hand, census takers visit your house and, following guidelines set forth by the govt, write down the race they think you belong to or resemble the most. What they take into consideration, I have no idea.
But to me, it is obvious there is no way blacks only make up 10%. To me, blacks and mulattoes are not that far apart in their numbers: about 30% mulattoes and 20% blacks. So I would say that today's Cuba's population maybe 50-50.
The funny thing about Cuban censuses is that, sometimes, census takers don't know how to classify some people and have to make a decision based on the categories they are given. I was reading a commentary on the 1980 census, published in the Cuban magazine La Jiribilla, in which they describe how a district in eastern Cuba, which had never received any Chinese immigration, had one of the highest percentages of people classified as Asian. It just happens that a lot of people there exhibited features which the enumerators thought had to be "Chinese or something". The reason for this, according to this article, is that there was still a lot of noticeable Taino ancestry in that particular place. So because the only categories were White, Black, Mestizo and Asian, those people were placed in the category the enumerators felt they fitted best. In Cuba the "Mestizo" category is the one used for mulattoes. In Cuba mestizo officially simply means mixed-race, so all mulattoes are counted as "mestizos".
Just to clarify, Cubans do not usually refer to mulattoes as mestizos in daily conversations. Mulatto is the universal word used. However, when writing or speaking in public, the word mestizo is almost always used. This word sounds more "professional" than mulatto, which they think it is slang or not a dignified enough word to include in public documents.
I've always known Cuba has a very substantial white population. NJ has the second highest Cuban population in the USA, and even keeping in mind the different background of the different waves of Cuban immigants, I can still plainly see it.
Speaking to the old timers and talking with those who visit, as well as pics, it has definitely gotten much more mixed with certain areas looking very much like stereotypical Dominicans.
To those that may not be too familiar with Cubans, Cuban whites, in my opinion, look like one of the whitest in LatinAmerica. There are many here who have Spanish grand fathers or great grandfathers, not distant Euro ancestry.
I hear the word mulatto/mulaton in regular casual conversation as well as songs.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:09
Even though Nephilim already answered your question, I'll ask you the following: Are the chilean Nazis a Minutemen type group? Do you feel that la raza chilena is threatened by peruvians and alto peruvians (a.k.a bolivians)?
How about the Dominican Nazis?:p:lol:
...
I don't consider someone who is predominately Euro/African with some distant Amerindian heritage to be triracial..
The problem with your calculations is that they are simply false. Genetically, Brazilians are very Amerindian. More than what people think. 33% of theirs mtDNA is Amerindian, to start with.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 19:13
How about the Dominican Nazis?:p:lol:
If they exist I'm not aware of them, although the case could be made of naming our trujillistas as nazis for the reasons that you know.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:16
If they exist I'm not aware of them, although the case could be made of naming our trujillistas as nazis for the reasons that you know.
There are 1 or 2 Dominican posters on Stormfront. They don't realize they're fighting a losing battle.:lol: There will always be mostly pure Whites, they just won't be walking around the streets of Santiago.
I don't know if I would call Trujillistas nazis, most of my family are either Trujillistas or neo-Trujillistas.;)
Cuba is as Black as Haiti. Who do you want to fool?
Fool? It is not my intention to fool anyone. I am simply stating things as they are. It is quite obvious you know nothing about Cuba or Cubans. You are just speaking out of pure ignorance. My advise to you is to read as much as you can about Cuban history, talk to Cubans and, finally, take a trip over there. In addition, it is very improper and uncalled for, for you to declare I want to fool someone or that I have an agenda. If there's someone here who has no agenda and is not on any crusade, that is me! Así que mide tus palabras cuando a mi te refieras y date un viajecito a Cuba.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:19
Fool? It is not my intention to fool anyone. I am simply stating things as they are. It is quite obvious you know nothing about Cuba or Cubans. You are just speaking out of pure ignorance. My advise to you is to read as much as you can about Cuban history, talk to Cubans and, finally, take a trip over there. In addition, it is very improper and uncalled for, for you to declare I want to fool someone or that I have an agenda. If there's someone here who has no agenda and is not on any crusade, that is me! Así que mide tus palabras cuando a mi te refieras y date un viajecito a Cuba.
I in no way think you were trying to fool anyone, but I have always had suspicion of those Cuban demographics. Ultimately they don't matter to me but I always found them to be possibly skewed.
Serge. Look how white Cuba is:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Amerique_du_sud/Cuba/Cuban_Soldiers/Cuban_soldiers_news_02122006_002.jpg
The problem with your calculations is that they are simply false. Genetically, Brazilians are very Amerindian. More than what people think. 33% of theirs mtDNA is Amerindian, to start with.
What relevance does that have to someone saying Brazil is Mestizo (in the Euro/Indian sense)? Many of those people have distant Amerindian ancestry, for one, and for two that includes triracial pardos who are obviously of Amerindian descent. Stop trying to inflate the numbers.
---------- Post added 2010-03-08 at 14:23 ----------
Fool? It is not my intention to fool anyone. I am simply stating things as they are. It is quite obvious you know nothing about Cuba or Cubans. You are just speaking out of pure ignorance. My advise to you is to read as much as you can about Cuban history, talk to Cubans and, finally, take a trip over there. In addition, it is very improper and uncalled for, for you to declare I want to fool someone or that I have an agenda. If there's someone here who has no agenda and is not on any crusade, that is me! Así que mide tus palabras cuando a mi te refieras y date un viajecito a Cuba.
He's trolling don't even mind him. I cosign with what you wrote above. When did you leave Cuba, by the way?
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:23
Serge. Look how white Cuba is:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Amerique_du_sud/Cuba/Cuban_Soldiers/Cuban_soldiers_news_02122006_002.jpg
I don't think the military is a good snapshot for the demographics, but I do see "Whites" or very light skinned mixed people in there (I see a guy who kind of looks like me). I figured you were gonna post a picture that resembled the Haitian national police.
The Cuban thread in the Human Variation section had a great cross section of Cuban society.
Really though, what's up with the rockets?:confused:
Serge. Look how white Cuba is:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Amerique_du_sud/Cuba/Cuban_Soldiers/Cuban_soldiers_news_02122006_002.jpg
It's a very known fact that afro-descendants make up the majority of the military.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 19:28
There are 1 or 2 Dominican posters on Stormfront. They don't realize they're fighting a losing battle.:lol: There will always be mostly pure Whites, they just won't be walking around the streets of Santiago.
And that's the beauty of our country. The land simply forces the people to abandon any kind of racial reserve whatsoever, although there's a limit to which that tolerance can be brought.
I in no way think you were trying to fool anyone, but I have always had suspicion of those Cuban demographics. Ultimately they don't matter to me but I always found them to be possibly skewed.
To make it seem like whites are the majority or the number of mulatos is higher?
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:33
To make it seem like whites are the majority or the number of mulatos is higher?
White majority. I don't know if this is done purposely or not, but I just didn't think this could add up. Cuba was a huge slave state, but only 10% black now? Then I would say well maybe, despite racial differences historically, more mixing occurred post-revolution but the Mulatto population is only 23.84% so this still doesn't seem to make sense. To top it all off Cuba experienced major White flight. I'm not saying Cuba has little Whites, it's always had a large population of Whites. It just doesn't seem to add up. If you think differently and wish to correct me, please inform me where I'm wrong.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 19:45
White majority. I don't know if this is done purposely or not, but I just didn't think this could add up. Cuba was a huge slave state, but only 10% black now? Then I would say well maybe, despite racial differences historically, more mixing occurred post-revolution but the Mulatto population is only 23.84% so this still doesn't seem to make sense. To top it all off Cuba experienced major White flight. I'm not saying Cuba has little Whites, it's always had a large population of Whites. It just doesn't seem to add up. If you think differently and wish to correct me, please inform me where I'm wrong.
The answer to that is that Cuba was historically speaking a very sui generis case among Caribbean plantation colonies, by the fact that it was BOTH a settler colony AND a plantation colony. The cuban colonists always made sure that their slave population never surpassed in numbers the free population. Despite the fact that after the Haitian Revolution the plantations over there would multiply, there were juntas of european inmigration that made sure to import families of the old continent in order to settle them on the land that would be unused by the plantation system, specially the one dedicated by the tobacco crops both on the Pinar del Rio area and the one of Santiago/Guantanamo.
The reason that explains why the white population would surpass the slave one was that the pace of european would experience a similar explosion than the brazilian one, both of them after the plantation system was erradicated on those countries, and the magnates needed to rely on a workforce that would be less problematic racially speaking.
The fact that both Cuba and Brazil experienced great waves of european inmigration during their colonial period would be one of the factors that would explain why the haitian experience didn't replicate itself on those places, besides the one of not having a numerous mulatto class to entice the slaves with ideas of freedom and the fact that the whites were always united whenever a slave rebellion reared its ugly head.
White majority. I don't know if this is done purposely or not, but I just didn't think this could add up. Cuba was a huge slave state, but only 10% black now? Then I would say well maybe, despite racial differences historically, more mixing occurred post-revolution but the Mulatto population is only 23.84% so this still doesn't seem to make sense. To top it all off Cuba experienced major White flight. I'm not saying Cuba has little Whites, it's always had a large population of Whites. It just doesn't seem to add up. If you think differently and wish to correct me, please inform me where I'm wrong.
Cuba did import alot of African slaves, and one of the last (I think Brazil was the last) to abolish slavery. That being said, they had a very huge influx of Spanish immigrants, so much so that alot of Cubans I know actually do have very recent pure Spanish ancestry.
I know Argentina is kind of the poster boy for whiteness in LatinAmerica, but Cuban whites IMHO are very white, so much so that they easily blend into the white mainstream in Florida.
Now as far as the accuracy of the census, its up to speculation. I know why you question it, its due to the very different results from the previous one.
ElAndullero if I'm not mistaken has visited Cuba, perhaps he can give give us his first hand account of what he saw.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:49
The answer to that is that Cuba was historically speaking a very sui generis case among Caribbean plantation colonies, by the fact that it was BOTH a settler colony AND a plantation colony. The cuban colonists always made sure that their slave population never surpassed in numbers the free population. Despite the fact that after the Haitian Revolution the plantations over there would multiply, there were juntas of european inmigration that made sure to import families of the old continent in order to settle them on the land that would be unused by the plantation system, specially the one dedicated by the tobacco crops both on the Pinar del Rio area and the one Santiago/Guantanamo.
The reason that explains why the white population would surpass the slave one was that the pace of european would experience a similar explosion than the brazilian one, both of them after the plantation system was erradicated on those countries, and the magnates needed to rely on a workforce that would be less problematic racially speaking.
The fact that both Cuba and Brazil experienced great waves of european inmigration during their colonial period would be one of the factors that would explain why the haitian experience didn't replicate itself on those places, besides the one of not having a numerous mulatto class to entice the slaves with ideas of freedom and the fact that the whites were always united whenever a slave rebellion reared its ugly head.
Okay, that more or less resembles my knowledge on Cuba (your knowledge has greater detail of course) and I understand why it did have a large White population if not outright majority. I figured with Castro coming in and many Whites leaving those numbers went down to a noticeable extent.
That still does not explain why the number of blacks are very low on the census.
---------- Post added 2010-03-08 at 14:52 ----------
Cuba did import alot of African slaves, and one of the last (I think Brazil was the last) to abolish slavery. That being said, they had a very huge influx of Spanish immigrants, so much so that alot of Cubans I know actually do have very recent pure Spanish ancestry.
I know Argentina is kind of the poster boy for whiteness in LatinAmerica, but Cuban whites IMHO are very white, so much so that they easily blend into the white mainstream in Florida.
Now as far as the accuracy of the census, its up to speculation. I know why you question it, its due to the very different results from the previous one.
ElAndullero if I'm not mistaken has visited Cuba, perhaps he can give give us his first hand account of what he saw.
I've already said I'm no longer using Argentina as the poster boy, that title now goes to Uruguay.:p But you're right, the Whites in the Southern cone, while very European looking and not necessarily "swarthy", do tend to have a distinct southern Euro look to them (lots of Italian migration) while Cubans look almost northern Euro.
Not only different than older ones, but different from non-governmental ones to the point where the percentages are almost exactly flipped.
Yeah, El Andullero, would you regal us with your experience. Maybe even a vacation slide show.:lol:
Lalo as well, being a Cuban.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 19:53
Cuba did import alot of African slaves, and one of the last (I think Brazil was the last) to abolish slavery. That being said, they had a very huge influx of Spanish immigrants, so much so that alot of Cubans I know actually do have very recent pure Spanish ancestry.
I know Argentina is kind of the poster boy for whiteness in LatinAmerica, but Cuban whites IMHO are very white, so much so that they easily blend into the white mainstream in Florida.
Now as far as the accuracy of the census, its up to speculation. I know why you question it, its due to the very different results from the previous one.
ElAndullero if I'm not mistaken has visited Cuba, perhaps he can give give us his first hand account of what he saw.
Even though there has been a lot of white flight, and a subsequent increase on the numbers of the non-white population, my analysis on this account is no different than Serge's, in the sense that Cuba has become a little bit like the DR by showing a predominance of a certain ethnicity on some towns while in others it's a minority, but overall I'd say that Cuba still continues to be a country with a majority white population, although this majority is very slight and bound to be lost at any moment in time, specially if the current regime continues and the cuban american whites continue to stay out of the island. One thing is certain, though: here on the DR we could use some of the cuban programs, specially the ones aimed at preventing a major impact of hurricanes, and their extremely controlled urban population growth.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 19:56
Even though there has been a lot of white flight, and a subsequent increase on the numbers of the non-white population, my analysis on this account is no difference than Serge's, in the sense that Cuba has become a little bit like the DR by showing a predominance of a certain ethnicity on some towns while in others it's a minority, but overall I'd say that Cuba still continues to be a country with a majority white population, although this majority is very slight and bound to be lost at any moment in time, specially if the current regime continues and the cuban american whites continue to stay out.
Hasn't enough time passed that these Cuban Americans are just elderly people dying off and their offspring are incredibly American? I live in suburban NY so I have no contact with Cubans. I know one Cuban in Miami and we don't usually talk about these things.
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 20:00
Hasn't enough time passed that these Cuban Americans are just elderly people dying off and their offspring are incredibly American? I live in suburban NY so I have no contact with Cubans. I know one Cuban in Miami and we don't usually talk about these things.
Don't be misled by this impression. There are a lot, and I mean, A LOT, of cuban americans that dream to return to the land of their forefathers, just like the are a lot of dominican americans that are striving to have a dominican retirement, despite all our problems.
Even though there has been a lot of white flight, and a subsequent increase on the numbers of the non-white population, my analysis on this account is no different than Serge's, in the sense that Cuba has become a little bit like the DR by showing a predominance of a certain ethnicity on some towns while in others it's a minority, but overall I'd say that Cuba still continues to be a country with a majority white population, although this majority is very slight and bound to be lost at any moment in time, specially if the current regime continues and the cuban american whites continue to stay out of the island.
Part of my work social circle is Cuban, even the recent ones coming over (balseros, bomberos) that I've seen are pred. European looking, followed by those of less Euro. ancestry. Those of pred. SSA ancestry are a minority.
Many of them have ties and good relations with the Dominican business sectors in Northern NJ as well as NYC.
I can clearly see the mindset differences from the old generation that came pre and post Castro, their very Americanized descendants, the Marielitos, and the recent waves. The common perception from the older waves towards the newer ones is that Castro has created a generation of hustlers. lol
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 20:03
Don't be misled by this impression. There are a lot, and I mean, A LOT, of cuban americans that dream to return to the land of their forefathers, just like the are a lot of dominican americans that are striving to have a dominican retirement, despite all our problems.
I see the comparison. Personally if things keep going this way I don't know if I want a house in Central Cibao anymore.:(
El Andullero
2010-03-08, 20:05
Part of my work social circle is Cuban, even the recent ones coming over (balseros, bomberos) that I've seen are pred. European looking, followed by those of less Euro. ancestry. Those of pred. SSA ancestry are a minority.
Many of them have ties and good relations with the Dominican business sectors in Northern NJ as well as NYC.
I can clearly see the mindset differences from the old generation that came pre and post Castro, their very Americanized descendants, the Marielitos, and the recent waves. The common perception from the older waves towards the newer ones is that Castro has created a generation of hustlers. lol
That's almost point by point the perception that the dominicans that came to the US during the 60's, 70's and 80's have of the ones that came during the 90's. It's almost as if with every coming decade the quality of our emigration is devaluing itself more and more. I'd like to believe that this is because our educated classes have decided to fight the good fight here, but I could be mistaken. :confused:
EiCibaeño
2010-03-08, 20:08
That's almost point by point the perception that the dominicans that came to the US during the 60's, 70's and 80's have of the ones that came during the 90's. It's almost as if with every coming decade the quality of our emigration is devaluing itself more and more. I'd like to believe that this is because our educated classes have decided to fight the good fight here, but I could be mistaken. :confused:
At the same time that I would like to show off our best when Dominicans emigrate I would rather them stay in DR and try to build something out of it.
At the same time that I would like to show off our best when Dominicans emigrate I would rather them stay in DR and try to build something out of it.
They need to start with:
-The US, Colombia and Brazil to give them some hardcore advise on preventing DR from going down the narco-state road. Go Brazilian style on the hardened criminal gangs.
-Israel, South Africa and the USA to advise them on border/illegal immigration control and protecting the enviroment.
To those that may not be too familiar with Cubans, Cuban whites, in my opinion, look like one of the whitest in LatinAmerica. There are many here who have Spanish grand fathers or great grandfathers, not distant Euro ancestry.
I read some were that there was 250,000 people who were born in Spain that lived in Cuba in 1950 ,that was like 5% of the population at that time.
---------- Post added 2010-03-08 at 14:24 ----------
Serge. Look how white Cuba is:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Amerique_du_sud/Cuba/Cuban_Soldiers/Cuban_soldiers_news_02122006_002.jpg
One picture means nothing.
Cuba received alot of Spanish immigrants, it was part of Spain until 1898.
Alot of Gallegos settled Cuba's countryside .
I read some were that there was 250,000 people who were born in Spain that lived in Cuba in 1950 ,that was like 5% of the population at that time.[COLOR="Silver"]
Probably Lalo or Serge can give more detail on this. I do know that many of the Spanish stayed after the war and Spanish immigrants increased from the l1890's all the way to right before Castro.
I'm not sure if you ever have had any personal contact with any Cuban 'whites', just picture someone who looks completely European but his whole mindset/attitude and bodylanguage is Caribbean Latino (picture Ricky Ricardo singing Babalu). One of the old stereotypes here is of a hard working, cigar smoking, fast talking businessman.
I'm not sure if you ever have had any personal contact with any Cuban 'whites', just picture someone who looks completely European but his whole mindset/attitude and bodylanguage is Caribbean Latino (picture Ricky Ricardo singing Babalu). One of the old stereotypes here is of a hard working, cigar smoking, fast talking businessman.
I met a few white Cubanos .
I met a few white Cubanos .
I think I might have asked you this before, but were Guayaberas type shirts introduced to Mexico via Cuban immigrants or did they already have this? The Philippines also has their own version. I always thought it was only the Caribbean Latinos who wore that.
I think I might have asked you this before, but were Guayaberas type shirts introduced to Mexico via Cuban immigrants or did they already have this?
More likely the Cubans brought it to the Yucatan, Cuban music has influenced Yucatan,Veracruz and popular in Mexico City 1930-60's.
Decimator
2010-03-09, 05:51
More likely the Cubans brought it to the Yucatan, Cuban music has influenced Yucatan,Veracruz and popular in Mexico City 1930-60's.
I have Cousins that have some White Cuban / Galician descent, but their descendants are mixed with Mexicans, they look not much different than me.
I read some were that there was 250,000 people who were born in Spain that lived in Cuba in 1950 ,that was like 5% of the population at that time.
---------- Post added 2010-03-08 at 14:24 ----------
One picture means nothing.
Cuba received alot of Spanish immigrants, it was part of Spain until 1898.
Alot of Gallegos settled Cuba's countryside .
I can't tell you for sure, but in Cuba the census used to be separated between Peninsulares and Isleños. So those born on the peninsula and those born on the Canary Islands. In 1899 Peninsulares were only slightly more than Isleños (who were 4.1% of the population), about 1.5 percent. That's the last census that gives those details, but by 1930 the amount of Spanish-born was about 2 percent more than in 1899, half of those returned to Spain, so 5-6% would be correct (of those who remained till 1950).
Btw, not until 1862 did whites surpass Afro-Cubans, and they were the majority since then. In 1899 58% of White Cubans were criollos (whites born on the island).. the rest 9.7 was Spanish-born, and about 1 percent was born in another European country or the Levant.
---------- Post added 2010-03-09 at 01:48 ----------
White majority. I don't know if this is done purposely or not, but I just didn't think this could add up. Cuba was a huge slave state, but only 10% black now? Then I would say well maybe, despite racial differences historically, more mixing occurred post-revolution but the Mulatto population is only 23.84% so this still doesn't seem to make sense. To top it all off Cuba experienced major White flight. I'm not saying Cuba has little Whites, it's always had a large population of Whites. It just doesn't seem to add up. If you think differently and wish to correct me, please inform me where I'm wrong.
Hmm.. well like Serge said census workers come to your house, but they don't look at you and write down your race, they rely on your self-identification. The reason the number of blacks is so low is because a good percentage of the so called mulatos are of predominately African descent, but if they have a certain feature that they perceive as non-SSA they might identify as mixed. It's possible that the results might be slightly skewed, but I think it's mostly just the fallacy of self-identification.
Also, there are some mulatos who look almost entirely white, so they might chose to self-identify as that especially if they have recent European ancestry.
There have been accusations of the government undercounting blacks.. it's quite possible. I can't tell you for sure what goes on in the government.
According to some non-governmental studies, one by The Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami.. ctp.iccas.miami.edu/website_documents/Challenges.pdf .. says the number of whites is 37%... their numbers in terms of blacks and mulatos... in my opinion aren't entirely correct, but 37% (imo) is a good estimate in terms of whites. Like Serge said places like Habana City, Santiago, Guantanamo are filled with afro-descendants... whites are predominately found in rural areas. Blacks imo are 17%-20% of the population.. while mestizos (mostly mulatos, then triracials, and finally a very tiny indo/euro population) would be the rest.. minus the 1% Asian population.. but then again many Asians are mixed too.
So, from my POV: mixed people are the majority, but whites come a very close second.
I know Argentina is kind of the poster boy for whiteness in LatinAmerica, but Cuban whites IMHO are very white, so much so that they easily blend into the white mainstream in Florida.
Yeah, actually when I lived in Miami I never heard anyone mention whites vs. Hispanics... it was always Anglos vs. Hispanics. I think southern-Florida is one of the only places where "wasps" don't consider Latinos to necessarily be of a different race. Just from my POV.
This is slightly off topic, but I've only met one Argentine in North America who was white (and I know quite a few).. his name was Franco and he looked like a Nazi poster-boy, the rest look very mixed, and I wouldn't even call a good proportion of them castizo.. many here look like they could be 50% Quechua. So the variation of the diaspora of certain countries can be very misleading.. compared to the variation of the population back home. Most of the ones here come from San Miguel del Tucuman province.
---------- Post added 2010-03-09 at 02:25 ----------
I've always known Cuba has a very substantial white population. NJ has the second highest Cuban population in the USA, and even keeping in mind the different background of the different waves of Cuban immigants, I can still plainly see it.
Speaking to the old timers and talking with those who visit, as well as pics, it has definitely gotten much more mixed with certain areas looking very much like stereotypical Dominicans.
To those that may not be too familiar with Cubans, Cuban whites, in my opinion, look like one of the whitest in LatinAmerica. There are many here who have Spanish grand fathers or great grandfathers, not distant Euro ancestry.
I hear the word mulatto/mulaton in regular casual conversation as well as songs.
The old men, are they migrants from Florida? Because I have white family members in NJ, but my impression has always been that non-white Cubans made up the majority of Cuban settlers, until the 80's/90's when some whites started to migrate from Miami.
This is my cousin who lives in NJ and the three of his friends are all also Cuban (the fake blond is part Nuyorican) http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs119.snc3/16650_103185366368640_100000315310175_83997_636697 3_n.jpg
I think they all look pretty white without admixture. People say my cousin looks like Pitbull :lol: (he's on the left). I've noticed quite a few Cubans in the area adopt the guido trend. :confused:
I personally see Mexico as a multicultural country, where there are many races. Not sure about other cities, but where I live, Monterrey city, due to there wasn't much mixing, there are many white people, but there are also mestizos, so there is diversity.. Maybe in other cities where racial mixing is more present, people refer to "la raza" as the mestizos.
Decimator
2010-03-16, 01:48
I personally see Mexico as a multicultural country, where there are many races. Not sure about other cities, but where I live, Monterrey city, due to there wasn't much mixing, there are many white people, but there are also mestizos, so there is diversity.. Maybe in other cities where racial mixing is more present, people refer to "la raza" as the mestizos.
Yo soy de Monterrey también :thumbsup: Guadalupe South East.
Actually, there was mixing in here, but successive waves of Europeans and Sephardis made our admixture more European. Most white people I know here have at least one slightly more Mestizo looking parent or sibling. The same was true for the rest of the north. Mestizos from Central/Southern states have also mixed with the population here. Still, I won't say Mexico is multi-cultural, not like USA or cities of Europe, there's no cultural shock between the "whites" and "mestizos", and the gaps with Amerindians are getting smaller day to day
Yo soy de Monterrey también :thumbsup: Guadalupe South East.
Actually, there was mixing in here, but successive waves of Europeans and Sephardis made our admixture more European. Most white people I know here have at least one slightly more Mestizo looking parent or sibling. The same was true for the rest of the north. Mestizos from Central/Southern states have also mixed with the population here. Still, I won't say Mexico is multi-cultural, not like USA or cities of Europe, there's no cultural shock between the "whites" and "mestizos", and the gaps with Amerindians are getting smaller day to day
Jaja, ¿en serio? Chido XD
Well, I'm from San Pedro, and here most everyone is white, and I think they look white, white like Europeans that have nothing to do with Amerindians, but I think it also depend of the zone you live. Uhm, and now that I think about it, I would say there is more like diversity between the Amerindians themselfes, but you're right about it¡s not like Americans cities, and about the gaps with Amerindians are getting smaller nowdays. I really hope the Amerindians continue with their facinating culture :D. Plus, in Mexico there really aren't blacks.
Decimator
2010-03-16, 04:53
Jaja, ¿en serio? Chido XD
Well, I'm from San Pedro, and here most everyone is white, and I think they look white, white like Europeans that have nothing to do with Amerindians, but I think it also depend of the zone you live. Uhm, and now that I think about it, I would say there is more like diversity between the Amerindians themselfes, but you're right about it¡s not like Americans cities, and about the gaps with Amerindians are getting smaller nowdays. I really hope the Amerindians continue with their facinating culture :D. Plus, in Mexico there really aren't blacks.
But ask yourself, have you seen the family of these people who is "white"? Like I said I bet 80% of them have at least one mestizo looking parent or brother. At least in Valle Oriente/San Agustin, I see lots of Mestizos, not of the extreme-beaned out Central American kind of of the Northern Mexican kind.
For example, look at Control Machete, they are from San Pedro.
For example, look at Control Machete, they are from San Pedro.
Comprende al Controooooool!!!
Mi tatarabuelo era de Quintana Roo y tenia ascendencia maya; por lo tanto yo soy mestizo. Supongo que la mayoría de las personas que se ven blancas si tienen sangre indígena en este país, por lo cual son mestizos; pero nadie es "puro" en una raza, según yo pienso. Entonces yo creo que, en apariencia, que varios mestizos parecen blancos, blancos no tanto en sentido de una raza. Y como tu lo dices, los mestizos aquí no parecen tanto los mestizos de otros lugares.
Pero no dejamos de ser mestizos...XD
Mi tatarabuelo era de Quintana Roo y tenia ascendencia maya; por lo tanto yo soy mestizo. Supongo que la mayoría de las personas que se ven blancas si tienen sangre indígena en este país, por lo cual son mestizos; pero nadie es "puro" en una raza, según yo pienso. Entonces yo creo que, en apariencia, que varios mestizos parecen blancos, blancos no tanto en sentido de una raza. Y como tu lo dices, los mestizos aquí no parecen tanto los mestizos de otros lugares.
Pero no dejamos de ser mestizos...XD
Absolutely! That's what I have always though. Most whites in Latin America do have indigenous roots.
I think when some people say Mestizo they mean someone who looks phenotypically mixed (Euro/Amerindian) as opposed to mezclado. Like in Brazil, a white person can be called a Mestico, but a pardo usually refers to someone who is non-white and mixed.
Right. You yourself say it, "mean" and "looks". But there are mestizos that look white, but they are still mestizos.
Bonaoense
2010-03-20, 17:44
No. I only associate with other Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Venezuelans, Panamanians and Coastal Colombians. An Ecuadorian or Mexican is as much as "my kin" as a Chinese person is. Is this a racial thing? No, There are tons of Mestizos in Puerto Rico, Venezuela and Colombia; it's the large cultural differences. We are of a mainly mulatto culture with some Taino, they are of a mainly mestizo culture with tiny specs of African. We speak a Spanish creole with heavy african influence such as letter-dropping and heavy Taino influence in the vocabulary, most South and Central Americans speak a more proper form of Castilian.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-20, 17:47
No. I only associate with other Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Venezuelans, Panamanians and Coastal Colombians.
An Ecuadorian or Mexican is as much as "my kin" as a Chinese person is.
I speak a Spanish creole with heavy african influence such as letter-dropping and heavy Taino influence in the vocabulary, most South and Central Americans speak a more proper form of Castilian.
Caribbean Spanish is not a Creole.
Then why do I see Central Americans partying with Puerto Ricans/Dominicans as opposed to Aframs or Whites?:whoco: Obviously the culture is different, but the similarity in LANGUAGE is a unifying force.
No, they don't. They have their own slang and vocabulary contributions from local tribes and immigrants. Even in the 2 White Hispanic countries they don't speak Castillian, but a Spanish heavily influenced by Italian.
Bonaoense
2010-03-20, 17:53
Caribbean Spanish is not a Creole.
Then why do I see Central Americans partying with Puerto Ricans/Dominicans as opposed to Aframs or Whites?:whoco: Obviously the culture is different, but the similarity in LANGUAGE is a unifying force.
No, they don't. They have their own slang and vocabulary contributions from local tribes and immigrants. Even in the 2 White Hispanic countries they don't speak Castillian, but a Spanish heavily influenced by Italian.
Yes it is. The letter-dropping is not native to any region of Spain, the Canarians got their dialect from US, not the other way around. Also, you'd be surprised how many Taino and African words are used in regular Caribbean/Dominican speech.
The Americanized teens do, because they lump themselves into the hispanic label. You will never see say, an Ecuadorian who's right off the boat going to a REAL Dominican/Puerto Rican party. And Aframs party with Puerto Ricans all of the time.
The majority of non-Caribbean Latinos are from Central America, Mexico and the Northern half of South America, and they speak more proper spanish. And Argentines and Uruguayans are far from being a Mulatto or even a triracial culture
El Andullero
2010-03-20, 17:56
Yes it is. The letter-dropping is not native to any region of Spain, the Canarians got their dialect from US, not the other way around. Also, you'd be surprised how many Taino and African words are used in regular Caribbean/Dominican speech.
The Americanized teens do, because they lump themselves into the hispanic label. You will never see say, an Ecuadorian who's right off the boat going to a REAL Dominican/Puerto Rican party.
It's not a creole for the simple fact that dominicans don't have to study spanish in order to make a college career here. The haitians, though, have to study french in order to study on their own homeland, THAT, is the difference. Also, we don't have problems interacting with our latin american brethen, aside from some words of the native slang. Also, there are MANY of our words of Taino and African origin that are included on the dictionary of La Real Academia de la Lengua, while there's not a single word of kreyol aysien included on the lexicon of the French Academy.
EiCibaeño
2010-03-20, 17:58
Yes it is. The letter-dropping is not native to any region of Spain, the Canarians got their dialect from US, not the other way around. Also, you'd be surprised how many Taino and African words are used in regular Caribbean/Dominican speech.
The Americanized teens do, because they lump themselves into the hispanic label. You will never see say, an Ecuadorian who's right off the boat going to a REAL Dominican/Puerto Rican party.
So by that line of though the entire Hispanic America region all speak creoles?:whoco:
Cre·ole
/ˈkrioʊl/ Show Spelled[kree-ohl] Show IPA
–noun
(usually lowercase) a creolized language; a pidgin that has become the native language of a speech community.Compare pidgin.
pidg·in
/ˈpɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[pij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.
2.
(loosely) any simplified or broken form of a language, esp. when used for communication between speakers of different languages.
It's not a creole you moron. It had contributions from people who couldn't speak it and even words but it retains the structure and rules of Spanish.
Nothing but immigrant Hispanics around here, only ones more than a generation are Puerto Ricans typically.
---------- Post added 2010-03-20 at 12:59 ----------
The majority of non-Caribbean Latinos are from Central America, Mexico and the Northern half of South America, and they speak more proper spanish. And Argentines and Uruguayans are far from being a Mulatto or even a triracial culture
We're not talking about culture, we're talking specifically about their language. They all have their own take on the Castillian Spanish that was brought over, not one nation speak Castillian in the Americas as spoken in Spain even the countries who bother to call the language Castillian.
Bonaoense
2010-03-20, 18:03
So by that line of though the entire Hispanic America region all speak creoles?:whoco:
Cre·ole
/ˈkrioʊl/ Show Spelled[kree-ohl] Show IPA
–noun
(usually lowercase) a creolized language; a pidgin that has become the native language of a speech community.Compare pidgin.
pidg·in
/ˈpɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[pij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.
2.
(loosely) any simplified or broken form of a language, esp. when used for communication between speakers of different languages.
It's not a creole you moron. It had contributions from people who couldn't speak it and even words but it retains the structure and rules of Spanish.
Nothing but immigrant Hispanics around here, only ones more than a generation are Puerto Ricans typically.
---------- Post added 2010-03-20 at 12:59 ----------
We're not talking about culture, we're talking specifically about their language. They all have their own take on the Castillian Spanish that was brought over, not one nation speak Castillian in the Americas as spoken in Spain even the countries who bother to call the language Castillian.
Really?
Caribbean Spanish:
Como tu ta'?
Standard Spanish:
Como estas usted?
It's not the same word order. Try typing in Dominican/Caribbean Spanish and you'll see why it's a creole.
---------- Post added 2010-03-20 at 17:06 ----------
It's not a creole for the simple fact that dominicans don't have to study spanish in order to make a college career here. The haitians, though, have to study french in order to study on their own homeland, THAT, is the difference. Also, we don't have problems interacting with our latin american brethen, aside from some words of the native slang. Also, there are MANY of our words of Taino and African origin that are included on the dictionary of La Real Academia de la Lengua, while there's not a single word of kreyol aysien included on the lexicon of the French Academy.
I highly doubt a Castillian could understand a campesino from El Cibao.
And the only reason Dominicans can understand standard Spanish is because they are taught it in school, and most Haitians can actually understand French. Haitians are generally less educated, so many never learn standard French.
Really?
Caribbean Spanish:
Como tu ta'?
Standard Spanish:
Como estas usted?
It's not the same word order..
I highly doubt a Castillian could understand a campesino from El Cibao.
And the only reason Dominicans can understand standard Spanish is because they are taught it in school, and most Haitians can actually understand French. Haitians are generally less educated, so many never learn standard French.
:ashamed:
Quite ridiculous. Could you understand this?
"Que te crei vo tonto guaton? Salta pal lao. Apuesto que no sai paonde va la micro! :mad:..." :lol::lol:
(Chilean coloquial Spanish)
Standard Spanish? Nobody speak Standard Spanish no more than english Speakers talk classical English. Not even Spaniards do, and Andalucians talk one of the worst Spanish of all.
Actually, some of the people that speaks the best Spanish are Peruvians, particularly Indians.
But yes, everybody understand standard Spanish. But these are coloquial forms to speak Spanish. They are not pidgins at all.
Caribbean Spanish, including that of Venezuela, Panama and Coastal Colombia, was heavily influenced by Andalusian Spanish. Over there they drop the same letters and pronounce the S the same way. In Cuba, for example, most of the settlers in the 1500's and early 1600's were Andalusians, and the second group in importance was Canary Islanders, whose speech was also clearly influenced by Andalusians. These groups set the speech patterns for the coming generations. Later, interaction between the differerent racial groups continued to shape the way Spanish is spoken there.
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