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Jedi
2012-07-07, 01:56
Trans Atlantic Slave Trade: Madagascar and the Malagasy People

Map Location:
http://www.nomadicthoughts.com/Portals/_ZenWorks/images/maps/madagascar/globe_madagascar.jpg

Most people hear Madagascar and think penguins, turtles and the Madagascar movies. Very rarely do they think slavery, transatlantic slave trade and possible ancestry from this island tucked away in such a humble location of the globe, especially New Worlders in the Americas. East of the Mother Land she lays…. 791.89 miles off the shores of Mozambique.

People:
http://www.jonikabana.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/_mg_06122-392x590.jpg

The people of Madagascar are called Malagasy are of Afro-Indonesian origins. It is the belief of archaeologists that the first arrivals to the Island were Indonesia/Malaya about 2,000 years ago. Other experts agree that is it likely other immigrants from Southern India an East Africa arrived in much later migrations.

Merina People of Madagascar

http://ecotopia.hani.co.kr/files/attach/images/69/833/047/Hery%20Zo%20Rakotondramanana.jpg

The Merina people in the highlands still carry very strong Indonesian characteristics.

I recently became very interested in Madagascar. I became interested because a small group of African Americans have claimed a Malagasy ancestor(s) via oral traditions. There are some who believe this group of people may actually have some *genetic* input on a few descendents of the African Diaspora, but to what extent?

Slave Trade
http://wysinger.homestead.com/African_20slave_20trade.jpg

Madagascar did have a role to play in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, but from a slightly different route. Around the Cape of Hope in Southern Africa. We can see by looking at the map, they were on the international arena, at a smaller scale but not meaningless in their burden.

Slavery was alive and well in Madagascar prior to the Portuguese and Dutch in the early 1600's when they landed in southern Madagascar.
In the Indian Ocean was slavery already in practice with Comoros, Madagascar, Mauritius and Reunion.
Thanks to the English, Madagascar became fresh ground and elevated the Malagasy people to market for the international slave trade. September 27, 1896 was it then abolished.

North American Malagasy Ancestry

Did slave ships land in North America carrying Malagasy slaves? There is not a lot of historical evidence but we find tid bits here and there. It is estimated that about that between 1719 and 1725 a little over than 1,000 Malagasy's arrived in Virginia.


"The first systematic venture from New England to Africa was undertaken in 1644 by an association of Boston traders, who sent three ships in quest of gold dust and black slaves. One vessel returned the following year with a cargo of wine, salt, sugar, and tobacco, which it had picked up in Barbados in exchange for slaves. But the other two ran into European warships off the African coast and barely escaped in one piece. Their fate was a good example of why Americans stayed out of the slave trade in the 17th century. Slave voyages were profitable, but Puritan merchants lacked the resources, financial and physical, to compete with the vast, armed, quasi-independent European chartered corporations that were battling to monopolize the trade in black slaves on the west coast of Africa. The superpowers in this struggle were the Dutch West India Company and the English Royal African Company. The Boston slavers avoided this by making the longer trip to the east coast of Africa, and by 1676 the Massachusetts ships were going to Madagascar for slaves. Boston merchants were selling these slaves in Virginia by 1678. But on the whole, in the 17th century New Englanders merely dabbled in the slave trade." http://www.slavenorth.com/profits.htm

South American Malagasy Ancestry

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_69u2CK25Cas/SKT51yc9xlI/AAAAAAAAB1o/--ALIHKa0QI/s320/SixtobyPeterLopez

Let's take a dramatic shift to Afro-Peruvians, in Latin America's Peru.


"Recently it has been verified that the community with the greatest concentration of Afro-Peruvians is Yapatera in Morropón (Piura), made up of around 7,000 farmers who are largely descended from African slaves of "malagasy" (Madagascar) origin. They are referred to as "malgaches" or "mangaches". Formerly, Chincha to the south of Lima and other communities in Ica were known as the towns of greatest Afro-Peruvian concentration, but due to the excessive mixing between the Afro inhabitants native to the area and the Andean migrants, the Afro-Peruvian root has been more hybridized. Also, many of the Afrodescent residents of these communities migrated towards Lima for better opportunities." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Peruvian


IIs Their Proof in the Pudding?
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/RebeccaSummey/E1a.jpg

So do we have an genomic evidence for this? I currently share on 23andMe with a African American who's mtDNA (mitochondrial) Halopgroup is E1a1a as the one shown above. Madagascar has the largest concentration of this Halpogroup according to 23andMe. This does not automatically mean *Madagascar* but it makes it more interesting.

My question I purpose....How many Malagasy people do you think would have a large *genomic* impact today? How much Malagasy ancestry, given the smaller input to the overall slave trade would exist today in the western hemisphere? East African and Asian Ancestry? Were there enough Malagasy that many people in North and South America would find obvious ancestors today? I'm curious what other's can offer in valuable information, especially anything historical.

Peace and Light.

Spark
2012-07-07, 02:26
I know that African American as well and I too believe she has distant Malagasy input that came in via her slave input. She believes that an Oceanian married into her family at some point. Given that her East Asian influence is about 2% in McDonald's test, I think my explanation is more likely. Malagasy slaves were a small part of the total shipment to the U.S. but they were sent here we know. And the Afro-Peruvian example is quite clear since some cultural forms were more easily traced to these Malagasy slaves.

Mister G
2012-07-07, 02:27
You probably have this information already but i will post it anyway.

From 1719 to 1725 more than 1,000 Malagasy slaves arrived to the Commonwealth of Virginia through the ports of Rappahannock and York rivers. The Prince Eugene of Bristol came into York River district of Virginia on May 18, 1719 carrying 340 Malagasy; the Mercury of London arrived at the district of Rappahannock River on May 17, 1720 with 466 Malagasy; and were followed by the Rebecca Snow, the Gascoigne Galley, the Henrietta, and the Coker Snow. The Prince Eugene, Rebecca Snow, and Gascoigne Galley apparently made directly from Madagascar for Virginia, where the Prince Eugene had sold her licensed cargo in 1719. The Henrietta stopped in Pernambuco, Brazil before continuing to Barbados and Virginia. Three of the Madagascar vessels arrived in Virginia over a period of only six weeks, entering at York River as follows: The Gascoigne Galley with 133 slaves, on May 15, 1721; the Prince Eugene (on a second trip) with 103 slaves in June, and the Henrietta with 130 slaves later that month. Platt states that the total number of Malagasy brought into Virginia between 1719 and 1721, comes to 1, 231 when the 340 slaves brought on the Prince Eugene's previous voyage and the 466 brought by the Mercury in 1720 are counted in. (Platt: 1969:567)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~malagasy4us/histories.htm

Magneto
2012-07-07, 07:56
I think I remember reading that brought to Virginia and the Carolinas because of their rice growing techniques.

Jedi
2012-07-07, 14:40
You probably have this information already but i will post it anyway.

From 1719 to 1725 more than 1,000 Malagasy slaves arrived to the Commonwealth of Virginia through the ports of Rappahannock and York rivers. The Prince Eugene of Bristol came into York River district of Virginia on May 18, 1719 carrying 340 Malagasy; the Mercury of London arrived at the district of Rappahannock River on May 17, 1720 with 466 Malagasy; and were followed by the Rebecca Snow, the Gascoigne Galley, the Henrietta, and the Coker Snow. The Prince Eugene, Rebecca Snow, and Gascoigne Galley apparently made directly from Madagascar for Virginia, where the Prince Eugene had sold her licensed cargo in 1719. The Henrietta stopped in Pernambuco, Brazil before continuing to Barbados and Virginia. Three of the Madagascar vessels arrived in Virginia over a period of only six weeks, entering at York River as follows: The Gascoigne Galley with 133 slaves, on May 15, 1721; the Prince Eugene (on a second trip) with 103 slaves in June, and the Henrietta with 130 slaves later that month. Platt states that the total number of Malagasy brought into Virginia between 1719 and 1721, comes to 1, 231 when the 340 slaves brought on the Prince Eugene's previous voyage and the 466 brought by the Mercury in 1720 are counted in. (Platt: 1969:567)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~malagasy4us/histories.htm


What is interesting and I was sharing with my cuz Spark. On Doug McDonald's paintings, African Americans with Native ancestry show either Green American segments or East Asian in the case for Native American. However, East Asian seems to be the trend and in the case for Native American, picking up the Siberian/East Asian affinity.
Now, with this, my larger question is, which I'm just throwing out there, how many African American's with Malagasy ancestry may show those East Asian segments in their ancestry paintings can attribute this to Native heritage or Malagasy? There are more African Americans from the Southeast showing varying levels of East Asian. How much of this can be attributed to Malagasy ancestry, the East Asian. Could the Malagasy have that much of an impact, genomic wise?
It seems the racial landscape of the Malagasy people do have Asian to some extent, some maybe more than others.

Mela-nun
2012-07-07, 18:36
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2593/3951330248_8bf0658176_z.jpg?zz=1http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4141/4818206700_e91c62160e_z.jpghttp://cdn-www.trails.com/imagecache/articles/295x195/information-people-madagascar-295x195.pnghttp://farm5.staticflickr.com/4099/4799439272_546e87d677_z.jpghttp://farm7.staticflickr.com/6186/6090307820_040faf9c7e_z.jpghttp://farm7.staticflickr.com/6049/6378148203_d5b303c53e_z.jpg more of its people

Esekon Kimatt
2012-07-07, 18:41
1st one looks Sudanese or Ugandan

LuisaSkis
2012-07-07, 20:05
What is interesting and I was sharing with my cuz Spark. On Doug McDonald's paintings, African Americans with Native ancestry show either Green American segments or East Asian in the case for Native American. However, East Asian seems to be the trend and in the case for Native American, picking up the Siberian/East Asian affinity.
Now, with this, my larger question is, which I'm just throwing out there, how many African American's with Malagasy ancestry may show those East Asian segments in their ancestry paintings can attribute this to Native heritage or Malagasy? There are more African Americans from the Southeast showing varying levels of East Asian. How much of this can be attributed to Malagasy ancestry, the East Asian. Could the Malagasy have that much of an impact, genomic wise?
It seems the racial landscape of the Malagasy people do have Asian to some extent, some maybe more than others.

http://db.tt/eeReUHH7

Take a look at this Doug McDonald painting. There is a bit of East Asian on chromosomes 6 & 8 and on "X".

The "American" is insignificant according to McDonald.

This person's ancestry is 75% Virginia, 25% Maryland, based on their four grandparents.

I don't know ... what do you guys think?

Spark
2012-07-08, 00:41
For the Amerind to be "insignificant" but the East Asian to come in with it could suggest Siberian admixture and hence Amerind as in my case. However, it is also possible that it could also be separate East Asian via some other contribution -- Malagasy, Chinese, or otherwise.

Mister G
2012-07-08, 01:35
Here is what i found online, however approach this with caution and find other sources as well in regards of this subject matter.


Objet : [DNA] mtDNA Haplogroup B "Malagasy motif" and African Americans

An mtDNA motif recently reported as being found only in Madagascar has now
been observed in the mtDNA of two self-identified African Americans.

An FTDNA customer contacted us (Tom and Georgia Bopp - the Hawaiian Project)
because he was puzzled by some mtDNA results. The cousin's mtDNA that had
been tested (HVS1 and HVS2) was reported as showing the "Polynesian Motif".
The customer's family history does not suggest how this could be.

Soon one of the cousin’s matches joined the email conversation, and then
another. These latter two are mtDNA FGS FTDNA customers, self-identified as
African Americans, who also have the "Polynesian Motif" in their mtDNA.
That is, they are in haplogroup B4a1a1a, and have low resolution HVS1 and 2
matches to Hawaiians, New Zealanders, etc. Our initial contact person's
cousin is an exact match to them on HVS1 and 2 (FGS due in April).

When the initial contact later informed us that the earliest known
ancestress of this line was married on Mauritius Island, we were led to
Razafindrazaka, et.al. European Journal of Human Genetics, Vol.18,
575,(2010). That paper was reported to this list in April 2010 by Stephen
Perkins:

Using full mtDNA sequences, Razafindrazaka, et. al., found two additional
markers in the coding region that appear to be unique to the B4a1a1a from
Madagascar. The two novel mutations are 1473T and 3423A. These mutations
were absent in the Polynesian-Polynesian samples the authors looked at, but
present in every one of the Malagasy samples. The authors call these
mutations the "Malagasy motif”. The motif now appears as "B4a1a1a2" on the
7 February 2011 (Build 11) mtDNA tree at www.phylotree.org .

So, back to our African American FTDNA customers. Knowing what to look for,
we revisited the FGS results, and indeed both of these women have the
reported”Malagasy Motif." The suggestion is that their maternal line most
likely comes from Madagascar, not Polynesia, possibly from the slave trade.
This makes more sense in view of their family histories.
Although DNA is often not very helpful for African Americans looking for a
place of origin, the special situation described here may be a fortuitous
exception.

Georgia Kinney Bopp

http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-04/1272118125
The link above will provide other links, which will be a interest to you and others here.

Spark
2012-07-08, 01:40
Wow...what a turn for them!

VarnadoFoshee
2012-07-08, 01:46
I am so happy you did this; I was compiling data and pictures to make a thread. I have a suspicion that my g-g-grandmother who's mother was a slave from Virginia was of Malagasy or partial Malagasy decent looking at her picture.

However reading another article on the Malagasy-American experience a researcher on African Anthropology said something like "If your of Malagasy decent you know it." as in your Malagasy forebearer spoke on it often, although I think she is talking about the Free Malagasy communities of sailors and christianized families who settles in the DC area.

Another thing of surprise, most of the slaves came apparently from Merina land on the north and West/South West not from the east Bantu inhabited lands.

Good post!

VarnadoFoshee
2012-07-08, 01:56
I would suggest also that its impact was mostly on the free black/historic mulatto communities seeing as the later settlements and waves of Malagasy comes from the exile and diaspora of political elites, sailors, and missionized families after the French-Hova War.

The earlier importations in New York and another Northern state through Dutch slave ships seem to make up a good composition of the slave population and probably was a major part of them Mulatto population free and black.

gawasah
2012-07-08, 05:09
Most Maslagasy slaves, from common sense, would come from the Western coastal lowlands, and not the Central highlands, nor the Eastern Coastline.,

Which would mean most Malagasys brought over to the US, were people of predominantly Bantu Ancestry, together with others from The Mozambique. and even if any had any significant traceable East Asian ancestry, it would be virtually untraceable, with generations of intra-African mixing.

Except of course, there is a kind of literature describing the Madagascan slaves, I see no reason, why European slave traders, would chooseEast Asian looking people, to work in cotton plantations, over Negroid looking ones. Remember, slaves went through inspections, and physical strength tests before being shipped off to the Americas.

My 2 Cents.

except of course, people want to start looking for things, that arent there, to begin with.

Mister G
2012-07-08, 05:49
Most Maslagasy slaves, from common sense, would come from the Western coastal lowlands, and not the Central highlands, nor the Eastern Coastline.,

Which would mean most Malagasys brought over to the US, were people of predominantly Bantu Ancestry, together with others from The Mozambique. and even if any had any significant traceable East Asian ancestry, it would be virtually untraceable, with generations of intra-African mixing.

Except of course, there is a kind of literature describing the Madagascan slaves, I see no reason, why European slave traders, would chooseEast Asian looking people, to work in cotton plantations, over Negroid looking ones. Remember, slaves went through inspections, and physical strength tests before being shipped off to the Americas.

My 2 Cents.

except of course, people want to start looking for things, that arent there, to begin with.

Actually Gawash, you could be right, but some historical records state otherwise. here is what i found from the link i provided.

NORTH CAROLINA

Craven County

Minutes 1772-1778, 12 September 1777, p.58c-d Peter Charles vs John Egge Tomlinson This Case being Ruled for Trial this Day the Court provided to hear the Parties upon the Examination of Witnesses The court was Unanimous of the opinion that the said Peter Charles is an East India Indian and justly Intitled to his Freedom. Therefore Ordered that he be Immediately Discharged and Set Free and the Defendant John Edge Tomlinson pay all costs.



Mary Dove, born say 1710, was a "Negro woman" slave listed in the Anne Arundel County, Maryland, inventory of the estate of Eleazer Birkhead on 28 April 1744 [Prerogative Court (inventories) 1744-5, 43]. Birkhead's widow married Leonard Thomas, and Mary Dove sued him in Anne Arundel County court for her freedom in June 1746 [Judgment Record 1746-8, 118]. The outcome of the suit is not recorded, apparently because Thomas took her with him when he moved to Craven County, North Carolina. In September 1749 the Dove family was living in Craven County when William Smith complained to the court on their behalf that Leonard Thomas was detaining them as slaves:

Moll, Nell, Sue, Sall, & Will, Negroes Detained as Slaves by Leonard Thomas That they are free born Persons in the Province of Maryland and brought to this Province by the said Leonard Thomas

William Smith travelled to Maryland to prove their claim, and they were free by November 1756 when James Dove, a "Negro Servant," complained to the Craven County court that Smith was mistreating him, Nelly, Sue, Sarah, Moll, and William Dove [Haun, Craven County Court Minutes, IV:11-12, 366].

A grandson of Mary Dove named William Dowry was still held in slavery in Anne Arundel County in 1791 when he sued for his freedom in the General Court of Maryland. In October 1791 a fifty-seven or fifty-eight-year-old woman named Ann Ridgely (born about 1734), who was the daughter-in-law of Leonard Thomas, testified in Anne Arundel County that Mary Dove was a tall, spare woman of brown complexion and was the granddaughter of a woman imported into the country by the deponent's great grandfather. The deponent always understood that the grandmother of Mary Dove was a "Yellow Woman," had long black hair, was reputed to be an East Indian or a Madagascarian, and was called "Malaga Moll." Ridgely testified that Mary Dove had a daughter named Fanny who was the mother of William Dowry who petitioned for his freedom in the General Court of Maryland in 1791. She also testified that Mary Dove sued Leonard Thomas for freedom in Maryland, but before the suit was decided he moved with his family about twenty miles from Newbern, North Carolina, and took with him Mary, her three children, and her grandchildren Will and Sal. A certain Alexander Sands, commonly called Indian Sawony, was a witness for Mary Dove in her suit in Craven County, North Carolina, in 1749 and testified that her grandmother was an East Indian woman [Craven County Miscellaneous Records, C.R. 28.928.10, cited by Byrd, In Full Force and Virtue, 37-8].

another description

MARYLAND GAZETTE

Windley, Runaway Slave Advertisements II:

p.36-7, Annapolis Maryland Gazette, July 17, 1760

Upper Marlborough, July 15, 1760

Ran away from Mr. Hepburn's Plantation, near Rock-Creek Bridge in Frederick County, on Saturday the 12th Instant, a Negro Man named Will, a little more than 5 feet high; he is of a yellow Complexion, being of a mix'd Breed, between an East-Indian and a Negro, has a large full Eyes, long Wool on his Head, and Lips.

J. Hepburn.

p.111, May 25, 1775

When they said east indian, they definitely not talking about native americans, but the people that is the subject of this thread.

Here is the link, so you can view for yourself.
http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/East_Indians.htm

VarnadoFoshee
2012-07-08, 06:19
Most Maslagasy slaves, from common sense, would come from the Western coastal lowlands, and not the Central highlands, nor the Eastern Coastline.,

Which would mean most Malagasys brought over to the US, were people of predominantly Bantu Ancestry, together with others from The Mozambique. and even if any had any significant traceable East Asian ancestry, it would be virtually untraceable, with generations of intra-African mixing.

Except of course, there is a kind of literature describing the Madagascan slaves, I see no reason, why European slave traders, would chooseEast Asian looking people, to work in cotton plantations, over Negroid looking ones. Remember, slaves went through inspections, and physical strength tests before being shipped off to the Americas.

My 2 Cents.

except of course, people want to start looking for things, that arent there, to begin with.


I think it is quite ignorant of you to say that when obviously you do not know about the start of Merina-European trade relations.

The start of the Malagasy slave trade utilized the prisoners of war as the main Malayo-African tribes became a kingdom that is those of the east (those of the north with Arab slavers and those of the Southeast with Indian slavers.) Only with the use of European arms where they able to finally shift the tide full force from disparate cheiftains to an Empire.

The Dutch by then settling the West Cape and heading out into the East Indies used for the most part those of destroyed kingdoms not the thinly populated dryland herders and fishers.

Its an ignorant statement to assume merely because it is close to the continent that that is the area covered. Only in later periods as the french finally took hold where europeans finally taking advantage of all regions :rolleyes:

gawasah
2012-07-08, 09:33
ok then..... sure.

you guyz can continue, with your discussions. :)

Magneto
2012-07-08, 09:35
Most Maslagasy slaves, from common sense, would come from the Western coastal lowlands, and not the Central highlands, nor the Eastern Coastline.,

Which would mean most Malagasys brought over to the US, were people of predominantly Bantu Ancestry, together with others from The Mozambique. and even if any had any significant traceable East Asian ancestry, it would be virtually untraceable, with generations of intra-African mixing.

Except of course, there is a kind of literature describing the Madagascan slaves, I see no reason, why European slave traders, would chooseEast Asian looking people, to work in cotton plantations, over Negroid looking ones. Remember, slaves went through inspections, and physical strength tests before being shipped off to the Americas.

My 2 Cents.

except of course, people want to start looking for things, that arent there, to begin with.


They didn't pick Malagasy slaves to work on cotton plantations, they picked them for their rice growing techniques. Now, as far as their appearance, I haven't seen many descriptions of these Malagasy slaves but I've noticed in many of these runaway slave adds, the talk of a"Madagascaran look". They mostly just reference hair or complexion. One example


October 29 to Friday,November 5 1736


RAN away Two Negro Men Slaves; One of them called Poplar, from my House in King William County, some Time in June last; He is a lusty well-set likely Fellow, of a middle Stature, upwards of 30 Years old, and talks pretty good English: The other called Planter, from my plantation in Roy`s Neck, in the County of King and Queen, about the Month of August following. He is a young Angola Negro, very black, and his Lips are remarkably red. He is supposed to be in Company with an old Negroe Fellow belonging to Col. Corbin, of a yellowish Hue, his Hair is like a Madagascar`s, and to be gone towards Spotsylvania. Whoever brings the said Negroes, or either of them to my House aforesaid, shall be paid a Pistole Reward for each: Or if already apprehended, any Person giving Notice thereof, so as they, or either of them, may be had again, shall be reasonably rewarded, by
Benjamin Needler. N.B. The Negroe Poplar is Outlaw`d.

Jedi
2012-07-08, 16:48
Thank you everyone for the great information suggested and documented. Malagasy were here, this is for certain.

Gawasah brought up a great point that is key in this topic and I quote:


Which would mean most Malagasys brought over to the US, were people of predominantly Bantu Ancestry, together with others from The Mozambique. and even if any had any significant traceable East Asian ancestry, it would be virtually untraceable, with generations of intra-African mixing.

The East Asian content in the genome is what is of interest. Even if we had samples of Malagasy people may not represent the racial landscape from 400yrs ago due to admixture.

Spark noted about the chromo painting from Doug that Luisa had posted and noted the comments from Doug, with regard to the East Asian.

Luisa:

Take a look at this Doug McDonald painting. There is a bit of East Asian on chromosomes 6 & 8 and on "X".The "American" is insignificant according to McDonald. This person's ancestry is 75% Virginia, 25% Maryland, based on their four grandparents.

Spark:

"For the Amerind to be "insignificant" but the East Asian to come in with it could suggest Siberian admixture and hence Amerind as in my case. However, it is also possible that it could also be separate East Asian via some other contribution -- Malagasy, Chinese, or otherwise."

This is the problem with Doug's program, although very good, he looks at the East Asian and American as separate entities on his tests. However, if you notice at times, many times that is, on some Central Americans that pull in the East Asian, he will make a note as in the case of the painting with the Native American from Guatemala I posted for example:

Doug:

Maya= 0.946 Eskimo= 0.054
which is saying it tests as being from somewhere near, but a bit north of, ordinary Maya http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=34019

I don't even think Doug understands his own tests results at times. In the case of someone testing predominately Native American w/East Asian, he takes this as an indicator or as indicative of Native Ancestry with a *pull* northward.

In taking Gawasah's comment about the East Asian, that East East Luisa in that painting, can be subjective if you have Malagasy ancestry and even considering that the Malagasy ancestor has Asian ancestry at all. The East Asian can mean anything but my feeling is, the chances of it being from Native ancestry is higher than Malagasy ancestry in what I'm seeing today. Even thought Doug called it *insignificant* is not considering as Spark said, it pulled in the American with it. There is more evidence of Native ancestry than Malagasy and again, considering the genomic structure of the Malagasy people brought here is all speculative.

Mister G
2012-07-08, 17:40
Thank you everyone for the great information suggested and documented. Malagasy were here, this is for certain.

Gawasah brought up a great point that is key in this topic and I quote:



The East Asian content in the genome is what is of interest. Even if we had samples of Malagasy people may not represent the racial landscape from 400yrs ago due to admixture.

Spark noted about the chromo painting from Doug that Luisa had posted and noted the comments from Doug, with regard to the East Asian.

Luisa:


Spark:


This is the problem with Doug's program, although very good, he looks at the East Asian and American as separate entities on his tests. However, if you notice at times, many times that is, on some Central Americans that pull in the East Asian, he will make a note as in the case of the painting with the Native American from Guatemala I posted for example:

Doug:


I don't even think Doug understands his own tests results at times. In the case of someone testing predominately Native American w/East Asian, he takes this as an indicator or as indicative of Native Ancestry with a *pull* northward.

In taking Gawasah's comment about the East Asian, that East East Luisa in that painting, can be subjective if you have Malagasy ancestry and even considering that the Malagasy ancestor has Asian ancestry at all. The East Asian can mean anything but my feeling is, the chances of it being from Native ancestry is higher than Malagasy ancestry in what I'm seeing today. Even thought Doug called it *insignificant* is not considering as Spark said, it pulled in the American with it. There is more evidence of Native ancestry than Malagasy and again, considering the genomic structure of the Malagasy people brought here is all speculative.

I suppose it should be broken down into regions, perhaps. For example from my reading i don't believe there was a large native american population or presence in the east coast for example maryland to the Carolinas therefore the native american maybe insignificant in some regions besides isolated pockets, while the malagasy is obvious significant in others and as we know they were documented, and describe by their appearance which sometimes contrast from other groups brought to the New World. Here is what i found over the net. Hopefully, this will be of interest for you.

Haplogroup M23 is an ancient M haplogroup found only in Madagascar and among African Americans. In this paper we discuss the genomic , archaeological, and historical evidence that indicates that M23 may have originated in Africa, and that haplogroup M probably expanded across Africa before the out of Africa exit by anatomically modern humans 60kya.

http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/2237
Here is the link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lmPFnzXU7o0C&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=malagasy+slaves+in+virginia&source=bl&ots=hcihNfjRpR&sig=BBnZWnwJnp8x-oMfBX3PCI3U4zk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I7b5T_KOMaqa2AWoqOSFBQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgo#v=onepage&q=malagasy%20slaves%20in%20virginia&f=false

According to book above South Carolina planters favored the people of Madagascar due to their rice cultivation skills.

I think they were more significant than we actually believe. All in All i know a few Malagasy who are happy that you guys are learning about this.

Peace.

Jedi
2012-07-08, 22:08
Mister G I suppose it should be broken down into regions, perhaps. For example from my reading i don't believe there was a large native american population or presence in the east coast for example maryland to the Carolinas therefore the native american maybe insignificant in some regions besides isolated pockets, while the malagasy is obvious significant in others and as we know they were documented, and describe by their appearance which sometimes contrast from other groups brought to the New World. Here is what i found over the net. Hopefully, this will be of interest for you.

This is erroneous statement to the 10th power. The Carolina's was Indian country, the South. So, so sad indeed. Our First Nations reduced to such a comment. The Malagasy ancestry is of interest to me (which I don't have BTW). I enjoy your comments but that one is just a little over stretching. I'd like to see what reading material suggest this fact for you. Honestly.

Natives were everywhere in the US, this was their land for quite a very, very long time. It was not until the Indian Removal between 1832-1839 that Indians were forced to be removed from the Southeast save for a few tribes. There were Indians over all the East Coast and tribes Federally recognized today. Please don’t minimize this. They were the First Nations. This is hands down.

A minimal number of Malagasy being brought here should not diminish Native presence. There were more Natives than Europeans. Many Natives died because they faced the brunt of New Worlder diseases. The first slaves were the Natives, Africans being brought in later. The burden was on them first, through the Americas.

Most African Americans are of West African origins. The crux of African slaves were taken from West Africa. Malagasy did not consitute a large portion of African Slavery. Malagasy ancestry I don't believe is very common. It's rare.

You can read here about Natives in the South. The Only Land They Knew: The Tragic Story of the American Indians in The Old South.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Only-Land-They-Knew/dp/0029346908

Mister G
2012-07-08, 22:40
This is erroneous statement to the 10th power. The Carolina's was Indian country, the South. So, so sad indeed. Our First Nations reduced to such a comment. The Malagasy ancestry is of interest to me (which I don't have BTW). I enjoy your comments but that one is just a little over stretching. I'd like to see what reading material suggest this fact for you. Honestly.

Natives were everywhere in the US, this was their land for quite a very, very long time. It was not until the Indian Removal between 1832-1839 that Indians were forced to be removed from the Southeast save for a few tribes. There were Indians over all the East Coast and tribes Federally recognized today. Please don’t minimize this. They were the First Nations. This is hands down.

A minimal number of Malagasy being brought here should not diminish Native presence. There were more Natives than Europeans. Many Natives died because they faced the brunt of New Worlder diseases. The first slaves were the Natives, Africans being brought in later. The burden was on them first, through the Americas.

Most African Americans are of West African origins. The crux of African slaves were taken from West Africa. Malagasy did not consitute a large portion of African Slavery. Malagasy ancestry I don't believe is very common. It's rare.

You can read here about Natives in the South. The Only Land They Knew: The Tragic Story of the American Indians in The Old South.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Only-Land-They-Knew/dp/0029346908

Don't take it as a personal attack, nor did i minimize as far as native americans. The key word here is "region". In some regions native american influence was a possible factor A good example is the Shinnecock tribe in Long Island New York and others regions the native influence was not a factor.

http://tobatucker.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=shinnecock

Jedi
2012-07-09, 00:14
Don't take it as a personal attack, nor did i minimize as far as native americans. The key word here is "region". In some regions native american influence was a possible factor A good example is the Shinnecock tribe in Long Island New York and others regions the native influence was not a factor.

http://tobatucker.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=shinnecock

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your comment. I see what you are trying to say. My bad:D
I agree with you on they key *regional* note.

oditous
2012-07-10, 02:33
Numbers brought to the Americas according to Slavevoyages.com (only includes documented voyages obviously). Carribean (esp. Barbados!) and Brazil seem to have received the biggest numbers. Peru is not really showing up (should be under Spanish American Mainland but when specified it's Rio de la Plata = Argentina) but could be because slave voyages were not recorded or indirect.


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasnumbersandemb arkationports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasandembarkatio nports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasspecifiedanum bersandembarkationports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasspecifiedbnum bersandembarkationports.jpg







Pictures from Yapatera in northern Peru where Malagassy ancestry is said to be most prevalent. Some do indeed resemble Malagassy somewhat but i'm guessing their amerindian would be bigger than their SE asian by now.


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5254/5446047307_9325fc82db_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5254/5446647870_6b175d5b36_b.jpg



If i remember correctly a Peruvian poster on this forum by the name of Salsassin has some afroperuvian ancestry which he also linked to Madagascar. He could probably tell you lots more about this topic. He's been inactive for a while though.

Jedi
2012-07-10, 18:10
Numbers brought to the Americas according to Slavevoyages.com (only includes documented voyages obviously). Carribean (esp. Barbados!) and Brazil seem to have received the biggest numbers. Peru is not really showing up (should be under Spanish American Mainland but when specified it's Rio de la Plata = Argentina) but could be because slave voyages were not recorded or indirect.


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasnumbersandemb arkationports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasandembarkatio nports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasspecifiedanum bersandembarkationports.jpg

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/SoutheastAfricanoriginsforallAmericasspecifiedbnum bersandembarkationports.jpg







Pictures from Yapatera in northern Peru where Malagassy ancestry is said to be most prevalent. Some do indeed resemble Malagassy somewhat but i'm guessing their amerindian would be bigger than their SE asian by now.


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5254/5446047307_9325fc82db_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5254/5446647870_6b175d5b36_b.jpg



If i remember correctly a Peruvian poster on this forum by the name of Salsassin has some afroperuvian ancestry which he also linked to Madagascar. He could probably tell you lots more about this topic. He's been inactive for a while though.


This is great, thanks. :D

Urbannomad79
2012-07-14, 19:51
I am excited to see this thread, especially being one of the folks with an oral family history of being of Malagasy descent. I have not started seriously on my research into it yet...but it has always been a subject that I am interested in. I have bits and pieces of stories and memories passed down from family members...looking forward to learning more.

Urbannomad79
2012-07-15, 19:28
I am super excited to see this thread, especially since I have oral family history of Malagasy ancestors. Looking forward to learning as much as I can so I can begin my research!

stymie662
2012-08-05, 00:05
Wow! I'm starting to believe that this is not a coincidence, but you never know... Me and me friend took a DNA test from Africandna.com last year. I was very nervous because I traced my roots (Y Chromosome) from male to male and there was a 25% chance that my hertiage that would trace back to the slave masters because of them raping the slaves. His dna came back to Ghana, but they had to do furtherer research on mine... My haplogroup was O and they told me that I shared the same haplogroup with males from SE Asia... The majority of my markers were coming from Indonesia. Then they had to do more research to tell me that my Dna Mutations were showing up heavy in Madagascar and that's more likely were my ancestors came from. From there I have been doing my own research and alot of the people there look like alot of my family members.

My grandfather's had a brother who was a twin. In some Malagasy ethnic groups, having twins was considered a curse back in the day. So, i'm wondering was that a reason their father left them. Other that the dna I don't have any oral stories. Something happen to their mother and they were put in an orphanage. I read after slavery alot of people abandon their children and Irish nuns took care of them and gave them their last name. White is an Irish/English name. That could be a possibility where the last name White came from. My family didn't know that we were of Malagasy descent until I took the dna test. My grandfather's father would've been the one to tell them that information

angel47
2012-10-31, 01:27
Hi,

I took the full sequence test for MtDNA with Family Tree as well as the People Finder test. I found out that I have the Polynesian markers as well as the Malagasy markers. That would explain why some of my matches were Asian and Polynesian. So most likely my maternal ancestors were from Madagascar. My mom's family was from Virginia where some slaves were sent there. My paternal test showed my ancestors were from the Makua people from Mozambique.

searching
2012-11-24, 17:20
I'm a descedant of a Malagasy slave. All of my dna test pointed to east-African/Japanese/Singaporean ancestry. I believe this is where it's from because of the small percentage it would have to go back to Madagascar. All of the descedants of my Maternal-Great grandmother have this phenotype. We all have strong Asian/African features. On 23andme my 3rd closest relative's haplogroup is M7c3c