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Jonny
2012-09-30, 20:44
What is the best way to detect the amount of Viking influence in an individual from the British Isles, France or the low countries?

Is it possible without confusing Anglo-Saxon or other Germanic input?

Vetton
2012-09-30, 21:13
No, there is no Viking DNA. The Vikings were just a small part of the Scandinavian population. And the haplogroup I1 was already there in all of Europe before the Viking era.

Jonny
2012-09-30, 21:29
No, there is no Viking DNA.

There is Scandinavian DNA, which was brought to Britain in significant numbers.

http://24.dk/image/3467434/419x350?.cached

uncut
2012-09-30, 21:29
Scandinavian I1 subclades (the green ones).. probably some of it.
But I guess those could also be from another germanic tribe (and not necessarily from the Vikings).
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zxqnhy.jpg

evon
2012-09-30, 21:34
What is the best way to detect the amount of Viking influence in an individual from the British Isles, France or the low countries?

Is it possible without confusing Anglo-Saxon or other Germanic input?

I think it would be very hard to determine DNA linked to Viking age migrations, mostly because such migrations have persisted into the middle ages, so one might be able to find say Norwegian DNA in some Brits, but its near to impossible to accurately date the arrival of the Segments ect...

For Danish ancestry it would be even more difficult because of the close relationship between Saxons and Danes in general..

so in short, no we cant determine that at this present day..

Vetton
2012-09-30, 22:03
There is Scandinavian DNA, which was brought to Britain in significant numbers.

http://24.dk/image/3467434/419x350?.cached
I didn't say there isn't scandinavian or northern-euro DNA in Britain.

BerberWarrior
2012-09-30, 22:20
No worries JoJo , you probably carry those holy genes.

SEJJ
2012-09-30, 22:24
I'd imagine the only way would be elevated levels of Scandinavian admixture in those areas with high concentrations of Scandinavian place-names - Otherwise it would be pretty hard to tell, as the Anglians and Danish Vikings were basically the same people. I guess you could tell the difference between Saxons and Norwegian Vikings.

Like my paternal line probably comes from Yorkshire or perhaps Lancashire, but i have no way of knowing as it is whether it's Anglian, Viking or what really.

Edit: I guess you'd just have to have it on a sliding scale of 'potential' Viking DNA. Of course any Scandinavian admixture in somewhere with no 'Viking' place names is unlikely to be Viking origin, but is possible. I don't think we will ever be able to say we are X % Anglo-Saxon and Y % Viking.

HillY
2012-09-30, 22:40
As I learn more about phenotypical Scandinavia, I am growing doubtful that the "Vikings" who stormed the shores of Britain were from Norway, or were "Norse." More precise to the title of this post, I don't think Norwegians left much DNA in Britain at all. I'm starting to think that Denmark was the chief source of these "inroads."
Future DNA studies will tell.

Merlin
2012-09-30, 22:50
As I learn more about phenotypical Scandinavia, I am growing doubtful that the "Vikings" who stormed the shores of Britain were from Norway, or were "Norse." More precise to the title of this post, I don't think Norwegians left much DNA in Britain at all. I'm starting to think that Denmark was the chief source of these "inroads."
Future DNA studies will tell.
Rollo, the first Duke of Normandy – and the forefather of the British royal family. Was a Norwegian rather than Danish.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/06/15/viking-is-forefather-to-british-royals/

SEJJ
2012-09-30, 23:19
As I learn more about phenotypical Scandinavia, I am growing doubtful that the "Vikings" who stormed the shores of Britain were from Norway, or were "Norse." More precise to the title of this post, I don't think Norwegians left much DNA in Britain at all. I'm starting to think that Denmark was the chief source of these "inroads."
Future DNA studies will tell.

I too think the Danes left much more of an impact, at least in most of England. The Norwegian Vikings were largely confined to the Irish Sea and Atlantic. Norwegians left a lot of DNA apparently in Shetland, Orkney, some in the Hebrides and mainland Scotland, the Isle of Man and North-West England (Coastal Cheshire, Lancashire, Cumbria) but by all accounts the Danes actually had a greater impact. There was a threat of a long-lasting Viking kingdom stretching from Ireland to York - But in the end it was the 'Danelaw' that we now associate most with the Vikings.

I wonder how big the impact of the St Brice's Day massacre and Harrying of the North was on the genetics, in particular northern England.

Edit: Actually going back to a post on another thread about distances between some European populations, the UK is substantially closer to Denmark than to Norway, or appears to be if they are quite close to the Swedish:

Quoted from Jaska, Thread - Origins of the British, 2012-06-23:

Genome-wide results.

FST-level tells the present-day genetic distance:

From UK to:
Australia 0.3
CEU 2.1
Netherlands 3.4
Denmark 4.5
Ireland 5.5
Sweden 9.1
Finland 64.2

So, the Englishmen are closer to Netherland and Denmark than to Ireland.
(McEvoy et al. 2009: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...9/?tool=pubmed)

IBS-level tells the shared gene base/pool:

I only found IBS-values about UK from Salmela et al. 2008 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0003519)

UK-GER: 0.8002
UK-SWE: 0.7997
UK-FIW: 0.7993
UK-FIE: 0.7982

Unfortunately there are no other Western European countries included. But the IBS-value shared with Germany is smaller than that between West and East Finns (genetically two different populations), and with Sweden it is the same which Sweden shares with West Finns (0.7997).

So we may conclude that the gene base of UK and Germany was not so similar than the present genetic distance, but the original Britannic gene base was different from that of Continental Western Europe. Anglo-Saxon migrations are clearly visible in the FST-level (Netherlands, Denmark), but about the Viking migrations it is difficult to say: Sweden is not so close, but Norway would be more relevant. But because Netherlands is closer than Denmark although there were Danish Vikings arriving, we may say that the Viking gene flow is not as great as the Anglo-Saxon gene flow.

snowwhite
2012-10-01, 02:03
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Viking+gene+suspected+factor+in+multiple+sclerosis/1101980723861
http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/MMDrymon/Multiple%20Sclerosis.htm
http://levilviking.blogspot.com/2007/01/blame-vikingss-multiple-sclerosis-in_7859.html


Maybe?

Mega
2012-10-01, 02:30
Whether you combine Anglo-Saxon with Viking or not you get the following
Northumberland and Durham- 77% Anglo-Saxon, 23% Celtic
Sussex/Kent- 71% Anglo-Saxon, 29% Celtic
Cumbria- 56% Anglo-Saxon, 44% Celtic
East Anglia- 100% Anglo-Saxon, 0% Celtic
Cornwall- 0% Anglo-Saxon, 100% Celtic

This according to Oxford geneticist Walter Bodmer in one of the largest genetic surveys

Jonny
2012-10-01, 08:45
Whether you combine Anglo-Saxon with Viking or not you get the following
Northumberland and Durham- 77% Anglo-Saxon, 23% Celtic
Sussex/Kent- 71% Anglo-Saxon, 29% Celtic
Cumbria- 56% Anglo-Saxon, 44% Celtic
East Anglia- 100% Anglo-Saxon, 0% Celtic
Cornwall- 0% Anglo-Saxon, 100% Celtic

This according to Oxford geneticist Walter Bodmer in one of the largest genetic surveys

100% Celtic/Anglo-Saxon doesn't seem right. What is the source of these figures exactly?

Wojewoda
2012-10-01, 09:08
Can we conclude anything about "Viking DNA" from the genetic compositin of modern Iceland?

ButlerKing
2012-10-01, 09:36
http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba103/feat1.shtml

http://i47.tinypic.com/1hzgj4.png

evon
2012-10-01, 12:08
Can we conclude anything about "Viking DNA" from the genetic compositin of modern Iceland?

Not really, because Iceland has been subject to continuous migrations to and from various countries, hence my 4th cousins ect from Iceland, in more recent times, the financial crisis has brought allot of Icelanders here, i hear allot of Icelandic on my bus trips around town...

SEJJ
2012-10-01, 12:54
100% Celtic/Anglo-Saxon doesn't seem right. What is the source of these figures exactly?

It seems like he was using Cornish and East Anglian as surrogate Brythonic and Anglo-Saxon source populations. So it's probably basically telling us that e.g Sussex/Kent are 71% East Anglian, 29% Cornish - When we find out how Germanic/Celtic the East Anglians are that puts us in good stead to see how Celtic/Germanic areas like Sussex/Kent, Cumbria, Northumberland & Durham are by comparison.

Edit: It might be that East Anglia is 95%+ Anglo-Saxon, and these figures are close to real, or it may be that it is something like 60%, and most of these other places are 20-40% Anglo-Saxon/Germanic. Of course that depends on your view of history, i'm feeling that East Anglia is going to be over 85% Anglo-Saxon, making these figures not far from the mark, but time will soon tell.

Edit Edit: Of course it might well be more complicated - If Cornwall turns out to be say 10% Germanic, and East Anglia 85% Germanic - It might be a bit confusing in some areas inbetween like Oxford. Also it's important that each area is tested separately. As it would be easy to test a whole region such as the South-East or North-West and miss out the more local genetics - As many places seem to have them, especially in places with large Celtic populations or with Viking settlement, so that is relevant to this thread i guess :P.

SEJJ
2012-10-01, 19:42
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Viking+gene+suspected+factor+in+multiple+sclerosis/1101980723861
http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/MMDrymon/Multiple%20Sclerosis.htm
http://levilviking.blogspot.com/2007/01/blame-vikingss-multiple-sclerosis-in_7859.html


Maybe?

This is an interesting approach, and it was a good idea to raise it. I think the POBI project are looking into genetically-related illnesses and diseases and it will be interesting to see if they turn up anything. Part of the remit is to raise awareness of regional variations in these sorts of conditions, presumably so areas with much higher incidence can be better supported than they were before. I suppose Dupruyen's Contracture is also worth mentioned too in this regard.

Jonny
2012-10-01, 21:19
This is an interesting approach, and it was a good idea to raise it. I think the POBI project are looking into genetically-related illnesses and diseases and it will be interesting to see if they turn up anything. Part of the remit is to raise awareness of regional variations in these sorts of conditions, presumably so areas with much higher incidence can be better supported than they were before. I suppose Dupruyen's Contracture is also worth mentioned too in this regard.

This is more useful in determining the effect on a population rather than an individual though.

SEJJ
2012-10-01, 21:36
This is more useful in determining the effect on a population rather than an individual though.

Yeah that is true, but is that not what we are talking about?

If we know where it is common - That might tell somebody with the illness whether they might have got it from Viking ancestors or not. You are right though, this needs to looked at from the perspective of a whole population to actually get any idea if there is a correlation in the first place.

Zvit
2012-10-01, 22:54
No, there is no Viking DNA. The Vikings were just a small part of the Scandinavian population. And the haplogroup I1 was already there in all of Europe before the Viking era.

There are some female haplogroups which are associated with the Vikings such as J1c2 (please see my mtdna)

SEJJ
2012-10-01, 22:57
There are some female haplogroups which are associated with the Vikings such as J1c2 (please see my mtdna)

Wasn't there a small article recently regarding mt-DNA haplogroups in North Wales, a couple of which had come from people who had grown up in Iceland? I'll see if i can find the article at some point. Not necessarily Viking but certainly shows there were substantial connections between the Irish Sea, Iceland, and presumably Norway.

Zvit
2012-10-02, 00:41
Wasn't there a small article recently regarding mt-DNA haplogroups in North Wales, a couple of which had come from people who had grown up in Iceland? I'll see if i can find the article at some point. Not necessarily Viking but certainly shows there were substantial connections between the Irish Sea, Iceland, and presumably Norway.

When you find it, please post it ;)

SEJJ
2012-10-02, 00:50
When you find it, please post it ;)

Sorry, i was going to look for it earlier but sidetracked myself. I will have a look for it tommorow, getting late now :). If i can't find it i'll remove my post, but i'm certain it exists. :P

Mega
2012-10-02, 02:27
100% Celtic/Anglo-Saxon doesn't seem right. What is the source of these figures exactly?

It's from the book, Face of Britain.
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2007/04/20/faces-of-britain/
I think what they mean by Germanic is primarily Germanic R1b with I1 and R1a. I know 100% does sound a little strange, and I was reluctant to post it. But that's what the statistic said in the book.

SEJJ
2012-10-02, 20:40
When you find it, please post it ;)

Here is Dienekes' coverage:

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/mtdna-from-medieval-north-wales.html

The article is actually about a Doctoral Thesis, and isn't available from 'EThOS', but can be ordered from the British Library i believe. Here is the site containing the abstract of the Thesis:

http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.547916

And from the UCLan website/Central Lancashire Online Knowledge:

http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/3880/

I believe three of the skeletons had been brought up away from where they were buried at least. And one in Iceland, the other two probably in Scotland or Norway. I think it's interesting because apart from being more information on Mt-DNA from Wales, it's also more evidence for mobility up and down the Atlantic from Wales to Iceland, or at least from Anglesey/Ynys Môn to use it's proper name :P.

There you go i remembered the keywords that i needed to search to find it :).

---------- Post Merged at 20:40 ----------

Actually those Fast-IBD maps (based on Polako's Fast-IBD) that Day Tripper created are quite interesting - I've downloaded the maps for all the UK people i've seen so far and everyone seems to get a fairly significant signature from Scandinavia. Obviously as Evon said plenty has happened since the Viking age, but it's interesting we still seem to share a lot of ancestry - whatever caused it.

Given what I've heard of the sort of date these segments are meant to be from, i think frames 1&2 are the most useful.

Hope you guys don't mind me posting these (hell they're already on the forum anyway :P), thought it was relevant:
UK9:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/UK9.png
UK46:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/UK46.png
UK42:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/UK42.png
UKUS1:
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/UKUS1.png

SEJJ
2012-10-03, 00:18
What is the best way to detect the amount of Viking influence in an individual from the British Isles, France or the low countries?

Is it possible without confusing Anglo-Saxon or other Germanic input?

I suppose if all else fails you could just give them an axe and a beard and tell them to rob the nearest bank or shop. You could do this with perhaps 50 individuals from each area of a country to see if a higher proportion from say Normandy as opposed to Aquitaine follow it through. Although this would be pseudo-scientific to say the least.

Hevneren
2012-10-03, 06:40
There is Scandinavian DNA, which was brought to Britain in significant numbers.

http://24.dk/image/3467434/419x350?.cached

Vikings =/= all Scandinavians. Asking for "Viking DNA" is like asking for "pirate DNA" or "Navy DNA".

SEJJ
2012-10-03, 14:58
I guess all you could say is that Scandinavian DNA is likely elevated in areas settled by them after the Anglo-Saxon migrations, because it was settled by them. So on the individual level if you took someone from southern England and north-east England and they shared the same amount of Scandinavian DNA, you could suppose that a larger proportion of this is due Viking incursions in the case of the person from the north-east.

Balder
2012-10-03, 20:26
Vikings =/= all Scandinavians. Asking for "Viking DNA" is like asking for "pirate DNA" or "Navy DNA".

Although "Viking" literally means "pirate," I think the OP was referring to the 'genetic' impact of what the Scandinavian raiders left the British Isles 1000 years ago.

EliasAlucard
2012-10-03, 21:50
Basically, you have to be aR1an:


The fabled haplogroup R1a - or, more precisely, its subclade R1a1 - is said to indicate a "Viking origin" when it is found among men of British descent. This is the haplogroup that will earn you a "Viking" certificate from Oxford Ancestors, and its presence was the main focus of the Capelli study "A Y Chromosome Census of The British Isles".
Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1a.htm

That makes it questionable if I1 in the British isles was present there before the Vikings raided/settled there?

Autosomal (auDNA) ---> General Genetics Discussion > Europe

//mod

SEJJ
2012-10-03, 22:15
Basically, you have to be aR1an:


The fabled haplogroup R1a - or, more precisely, its subclade R1a1 - is said to indicate a "Viking origin" when it is found among men of British descent. This is the haplogroup that will earn you a "Viking" certificate from Oxford Ancestors, and its presence was the main focus of the Capelli study "A Y Chromosome Census of The British Isles".
Source: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1a.htm

That makes it questionable if I1 in the British isles were present before the Vikings raided/settled there?

Autosomal (auDNA) ---> General Genetics Discussion > Europe

//mod

But then to accurately measure the impact you would have to compare the frequencies of various haplogroups in one country to another. Like the Vikings weren't 100% R1a or 100% I1 - The modern distribution can give us some idea - it's not exactly the same as it was back then, although it might be similar.

For a safe bet you can't say that I1 f.e. wasn't in the British Isles before the migration era, although most of it likely came over during and after that period. The same for R1a too, although i would imagine there is very little of it that didn't come over with the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings - As i think pretty much all of the R1a in Britain is the Scandinavian type (I can't remember the nomenclature).

Of course it also seems that Norwegians probably had low levels of R1b-L21 as well, so in that sense while in the British Isles R1b-L21 is generally indicative of a Celtic lineage, you can't say that it wasn't brought by Norwegian Vikings. Actually i believe there is one or two sub-groups of R1b-L21 or R1b-P312 that have a Norse distribution?

I would have thought that there was a small amount I1 in Britain before hand, or at least in eastern Britain. But i think you just have to measure relative frequencies. Like if I1 is just over 30% in modern Denmark, and around 15% in modern England (both on average), then a maximum of 50% contribution could have taken place, but if I1 was present before-hand in small amounts, then a certain number of that 15% is likely non Danish, but it's impossible to tell unless a particular sub-group developed before the migration and is only present in Britain i guess, then if that made up 10% of the I1 - 1.5% of the 15% is British and not Danish.

But then you have to take into account everything that has happened in the mean time. It's very unlikely that the modern frequencies are the same as they were over a thousand years ago, so that makes it pretty inaccurate for determining the contribution i guess.

We just need lots of ancient DNA from pre roman Britain and pre migration era Denmark and Norway really.