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Fimbulvetr
2012-10-13, 16:09
I'm a U4d1b on a swedish line as far back as I know. My evil partner in crime, Arischer Krieger, has U4c1a, also on a swedish line. What is there to say about U4? We with this haplo group have a common ancestor, Ulrike, who lived at the cold refuges of the Ukraine at the northern limits of human habitation for 18 000 years ago. U4 has its origin in the Upper Palaeolithic (25 000 years ago). It is a rare haplo group, found in 2% of Europeans. Not common anywhere but are particularly prevalent in Scandinavia, the Baltic countries and Russia. But there is not so much more information about this group as I know.

When in time did U4 become/split to the new line of U4d (For example: U4 has split from U, which is 45-55 000 years old)? When did U4d become/split in to U4c1 and U4d1? And when to U4c1a and U4d1b? Is there any books you can read (I have already read Seven daughters of Eve, and it did not includ Ulrike). Is there any professor you can contact (perhaps I answered to that one myself, maybe I should email prof. Bryan Sykes?).

I know that the undergroups are at least a couple of centuries old, or actually I have not find my undergroup in any register so that I dont know but U4c1a is found in people born in the seventeenth century (for example, a Perrine Hochet from Bretagne, France who was born in ca: 1670). No U4d1b is found, but I found one U4d1 born in 1670 from Czech Republic (and for U4c1, a Johanna Panchard born 1565 in Cornwall, England).

Fimbulvetr
2012-10-13, 17:19
I have posted this in another thread but perhaps it should be in this one to: I have discovered one extra marker in my mDNA that is distinctive for another haplogroup (T) - what does this mean? I have not found this marker in any other with U4, is it common to have markers from other haplogroups in your mDNA? How did it appear in my mDNA when you don't inherit maternal DNA from the father and (obviously) inherit your mDNA from your mother... U4 and T both originates from haplogroup R which is 66 000 years old - is this marker perhaps a genetic remnant from that time in history?

EliasAlucard
2012-10-15, 11:02
Perhaps you already know this, but two U4 individuals were found in the Andronovo culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Ancient_DNA

So it definitely goes back to the proto-Indo-Europeans.

Fimbulvetr
2013-09-05, 23:37
Where have all the posts in this thread gone?

Fimbulvetr
2013-09-11, 22:17
Since several interesting posts in this thread unfortunately disappeared as a result of hackerZ, I ask all readers for new posts with already posted (or new) information about haplogroup U4. I have managed to save a post:

U4 is, for now, missing in the middle/upper Paleolithic (but not haplogroup U where U5 is present). U4 is found in Mesolithic DNA in 27% of the remains (U for 78%):

Tardenoisian, Azilian and related cultures (11,500 to 7,500 ybp ; West & Southwest Europe)
* 9 500 to 7 500 old remain in central Portugal, where 2 of 8 remains is U and one of these U is U4 (the other one U5b1c2).
http://www.volgagermanbrit.us/documents/Portugal_transition_Meso_Neo.pdf

Maglemosian-Kongemose, Kunda-Narva, Neman-Zedmar and related cultures (11,500 to 5,000 ybp ; North & Northeast Europe)
* One U4, 8,850 years old, at Bad Dürrenberg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany and one U4 remain, 8350 years old, from the Kunda Culture in Lithiania.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19729620

Pitted Ware Culture (5,200 to 4,000 ybp ; Scandinavia)
* 8 of 19 remains found in Gotland, Sweden is U4. 2 remains couldn't be tested.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S0960982209016947

Atlantic Megalithic Culture (c. 7,000 to 4,000 ybp ; Western Europe)
* 1 of 6 Neolithic remains from the Cami de Can Grau site, 3500 years old, in Granollers, Catalonia, Spain is U4.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml
* Among 60 remains in Araba, northern Spain, 10 of them belongs to U (not specified which sub-group to U).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378091/pdf/10364533.pdf
* Among 41 remains from northern Spain (same as above?), 6185 to 5160 years old, 4 samples of U is found (not specified which sub-group to U).
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034417

Bell Beaker Culture (c. 4,400 to 3,800 ybp ; Western Europe)
* Two 4200 years old remains is U and one of these U is U4 (the other one U5a2a).
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011898

During the Bronze age, U4 is found in 1,5% of the remains.

Western European Bronze Age (c. 4,500 to 2,800 ybp ; Western Europe)
* 2 of 6 remains from Bizkaia Spain, 1450 years old, is U (not specified which sub-group to U).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378091/
* 2 of 8 remains from at the Montanissell Cave in the Catalan pre-Pyrenees, Spain, 1200 years old is U (not specified which sub-group to U).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21590/abstract;jsessionid=6964EE0878D401CFB2DCBB5FE27BEB 14.d02t01

Urnfield Culture (c. 3,300 to 2,750 ybp ; Central Europe)
* 2-3 of 8 U is not specified (of 34 skeletons) from the Lichtenstein Cave, Germany, 1000 years old. The identified U is U5b and one possible U2.
Felix Schilz (2006)

Nordic Bronze Age (c. 3,700 to 2,500 ybp ; Scandinavia)
* One 1400 years old remain from Denmark is U4.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011898

Iberian civilisation (3,100 to 2,200 ybp, Eastern Spain)
* 3 of 17 remains 700 to 100 years old scattered around Girona in Catalonia, Spain is U and one is U4.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml

Andronovo culture (1800-1300 ybp, Western Siberia)
*2 U4 individuals were found in the Andronovo culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Ancient_DNA

- - - Updated - - -

23andme writes following:


Haplogroup U4

About 45,000 years ago, humans began moving from the Near East onto the vast plains of eastern Europe. Haplogroup U4 appears to have arisen after this initial colonization, about 25,000 years ago. Not long afterward, the approaching Ice Age made most of northern Eurasia uninhabitable, and all but a few small groups of humans were pushed southward into the less frigid regions. During the early stages of the Ice Age, U4 was mostly restricted to southeastern Europe and the Caucasus Mountains. However, as the glaciers receded and temperatures warmed, U4 began to expand. Its expansions soon spawned four daughter branches: U4a, U4b, U4c and U4d.

Today, U4 is most common among northwestern Siberian populations, reaching levels as high as 25% in the Krasnoyarsk Krai region of central Siberia. It can also be found at lower levels, around 5-10%, among the Mari, Mordvin, and Mansi people of the Volga-Ural region of western Russia as well as the Estonians and Finns who surround the Baltic Sea of Europe. In both these regions, people speak related languages belonging to the Finno-Ugric family. As the ancestors of these present-day Finno-Ugric speakers expanded westward from the Ural Mountains across the northern forests of Europe they carried with them the U4 haplogroup, which was gradually enveloped into other European populations along the Baltic and Atlantic coasts such as the Swedish, French, and Cornish.

Unlike haplogroups U4c and U4d, which are comparably rare, U4a is found throughout northern Eurasia. It diverged from its U4 sister lineages about 21,000 years ago in the region surrounding the Baltic Sea. Today it is most common among the people of the Volga River and Ural Mountains of Russia, such as the Chuvash, Kets and Mari. It is also common among the Baltic and Finnish people of northern Europe who speak languages related to the Finno-Ugric tongues of the Volga-Ural region in western Russia.

The Finno-Ugric speakers surrounding the Baltic Sea and the northwestern Siberian groups both probably originated in the same spot, just north of the Black Sea. The spread of some branches of U4a can be tied to the spread of the Corded Ware, or "Battle Axe" culture that permeated much of Europe about 5,000 years ago, stretching from the Rhine River in the west to the Volga River in the east. Today, U4a is also present at low levels in western European populations, but the expansion farther west is clearly younger than the northward expansion. The expansion of people carrying U4a into western Europe is probably a consequence of the glacial retreat after the Last Ice Age, when many areas that had been covered in ice or otherwise uninhabitable began to show signs of life. U4a in European populations outside of the Baltic area is only about 12,000 years old.
Haplogroup U4b

While both U4a and U4b are found in western Europe, U4b is far more common there. It is found only among Swedes, Icelanders, Norwegians and other northern European Germanic-speaking groups. Despite a putative origin of U4 in eastern Europe, the daughter lineage U4b is much more rare in Baltic and Russian populations. This indicates that U4b likely originated not in the Baltic areas of eastern Europe, but in the Germanic areas of northwestern Europe. After the Ice Age, populations in the few spots of southern Europe and the Near East not covered by glaciers began expanding northward. Then about 13,000 years ago there was a sudden 1,000-year-long cold snap, called the Younger Dryas, which halted and even reversed expansion in some regions. U4b expanded across northern Europe after the Younger Dryas event ended, about 12,000 years ago.
Haplogroup of Conquerors

Recent research suggests that on two occasions during ancient times, conquering armies carried haplogroup U4 to new parts of the world. In Hungary, the haplogroup has been found at levels of 18% in DNA isolated from the 10th and 11th century tombs of Magyar conquerors who invaded the country around the turn of the 10th century.

Yet U4 was nonexistent in the graves of commoners who were buried at that time, and it is present at levels of only about 4% among Hungarians today. That pattern suggests that the Magyars, who introduced their language to Hungary, were never very numerous in spite of their cultural influence. It also helps explain why Hungarians have a language that is distinct from other eastern European tongues, even though they are fairly similar to their neighbors genetically.

The other case involving conquering armies and the U4 haplogroup is more mysterious. The Kalash are a small ethnic group of a few thousand people living in the three isolated mountain valleys on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Distinct from their neighbors in culture, religion and appearance, they claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great, whose armies conquered the region during the 4th century BC.

While genetics can't be used to support that claim specifically, it does indicate a western Eurasian origin for the group. One out of three Kalash have mitochondrial DNA belonging to haplogroup U4, indicating an origin in the Near East or the Caucasus. In fact, every mitochondrial haplogroup found among the Kalash has its roots far to the west of their current homeland."

artek
2013-09-15, 13:37
The Finno-Ugric speakers surrounding the Baltic Sea and the northwestern Siberian groups both probably originated in the same spot, just north of the Black Sea. The spread of some branches of U4a can be tied to the spread of the Corded Ware, or "Battle Axe" culture that permeated much of Europe about 5,000 years ago, stretching from the Rhine River in the west to the Volga River in the east. Today, U4a is also present at low levels in western European populations, but the expansion farther west is clearly younger than the northward expansion. The expansion of people carrying U4a into western Europe is probably a consequence of the glacial retreat after the Last Ice Age, when many areas that had been covered in ice or otherwise uninhabitable began to show signs of life. U4a in European populations outside of the Baltic area is only about 12,000 years old.


U4a is found throughout northern Eurasia. It diverged from its U4 sister lineages about 21,000 years ago in the region surrounding the Baltic Sea. Today it is most common among the people of the Volga River and Ural Mountains of Russia, such as the Chuvash, Kets and Mari. It is also common among the Baltic and Finnish people of northern Europe who speak languages related to the Finno-Ugric tongues of the Volga-Ural region in western Russia.

I'm U4a but my maternal line is from Flanders, so it's rather Germanic in origin. But who knows what had happened many years before the documented origins of my family :).

Maybe it was introduce with Corded Ware culture, as it's speculated.

Radagast
2013-09-16, 04:06
I'm a U4d1b on a swedish line as far back as I know. My evil partner in crime, Arischer Krieger, has U4c1a, also on a swedish line. What is there to say about U4? We with this haplo group have a common ancestor, Ulrike, who lived at the cold refuges of the Ukraine at the northern limits of human habitation for 18 000 years ago. U4 has its origin in the Upper Palaeolithic (25 000 years ago). It is a rare haplo group, found in 2% of Europeans. Not common anywhere but are particularly prevalent in Scandinavia, the Baltic countries and Russia. But there is not so much more information about this group as I know.

When in time did U4 become/split to the new line of U4d (For example: U4 has split from U, which is 45-55 000 years old)? When did U4d become/split in to U4c1 and U4d1? And when to U4c1a and U4d1b? Is there any books you can read (I have already read Seven daughters of Eve, and it did not includ Ulrike). Is there any professor you can contact (perhaps I answered to that one myself, maybe I should email prof. Bryan Sykes?).

I know that the undergroups are at least a couple of centuries old, or actually I have not find my undergroup in any register so that I dont know but U4c1a is found in people born in the seventeenth century (for example, a Perrine Hochet from Bretagne, France who was born in ca: 1670). No U4d1b is found, but I found one U4d1 born in 1670 from Czech Republic (and for U4c1, a Johanna Panchard born 1565 in Cornwall, England).

U4 derivatives are actually very common in NW Europe. They are north European women no doubt, big boned and big boobed.