View Full Version : Assyrian DNA - Assyrians are NOT Assyrians
Humanist
2010-04-05, 07:06
Who is this dolt? Assyrian DNA - Assyrians are NOT Assyrians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73D1oyrr7tc)
This imbecile's opinion appears to be based on the variety of Y-DNA haplogroups observed among the participants in the FTDNA Assyrian DNA project. Seriously, is he flippin' kidding me?
Who is this dolt? Assyrian DNA - Assyrians are NOT Assyrians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73D1oyrr7tc)
This imbecile's opinion appears to be based on the variety of Y-DNA haplogroups observed among the participants in the FTDNA Assyrian DNA project. Seriously, is he flippin' kidding me?
The video is pure nonsense. How does this individual know that these Y-dna haplogroups weren't already present in ancient Assyria? Those same haplotypes might have been present in the ancient Assyrians as well. Talk about jumping to conclusions without backing up your claims.
EliasAlucard
2010-04-05, 10:08
Who is this dolt? Assyrian DNA - Assyrians are NOT Assyrians (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2F watch%3Fv%3D73D1oyrr7tc)
This imbecile's opinion appears to be based on the variety of Y-DNA haplogroups observed among the participants in the FTDNA Assyrian DNA project. Seriously, is he flippin' kidding me?Yeah, I've seen this one before. Some anti-intellectual twat who thinks Y-DNA says everything about ancestry. I'm Y-DNA J1c3 and mtDNA H36, whereas Humanist is Y-DNA G1 and mtDNA HV5. But looking at the PCA plot, me and Humanist are very close to each other.
He probably believes he is "Aramaean" or some stupid shit like that.
The video is pure nonsense. How does this individual know that these Y-dna haplogroups weren't already present in ancient Assyria? Those same haplotypes might have been present in the ancient Assyrians as well. Talk about jumping to conclusions without backing up your claims.Most of these haplogroups were present in ancient Assyria, and even though they are different lineages, most of these haplogroups are West Eurasian haplogroups. And it doesn't really matter, because even though there are Assyrians who are Y-DNA R1a, R1b, G1, G2, J1 and F, they're all genetically more closely related with each other than the Assyrians who carry R1b are with for example a Swede or a Spaniard with R1b lineages.
That's what this YouTube retard doesn't understand. He just doesn't get it that Y-DNA is not 50% of your autosomal DNA. He's rehashing the same nonsense as for example Richard Lewontin uses when he says there are no races by comparing various mtDNA without taking autosomal DNA into consideration.
Othuroyo
2010-04-05, 12:40
That dude is a kurd who calls himself "Chaldean" to spread lies about our people.
EliasAlucard
2010-04-05, 12:52
That dude is a kurd who calls himself "Chaldean" to spread lies about our people.Whatever he is, he is intellectually dishonest and cares more about spreading agenda (spreading anti-Assyrian lies) than about the genetic history of the Assyrian people.
This is why we need more Assyrians at 23andMe and deCODEme. We need more Assyrians genetically tested because it will show we cluster close with each other and that Assyrians are an ethnic, genetic group, regardless of haplogroups or church denomination or various neo-Aramaic dialects.
It'll make all the morons shut up because they can't argue against science.
Those who identify themselves as Chaldeans should be proud to be living in the ancient Assyrian homeland...it is part of their heritage. Though some of them (and even many Assyrians) might be descendants of the ancient Babylonians/Chaldeans, that land is forever lost to us...our link to it has been severed for some time now...at least we still have a presence in northern Mesopotamia.
Humanist
2010-04-22, 08:49
Did not see this video response, uploaded only a day before I posted a link to the Assyrians are not Assyrians clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Xp2PtruOg
Once we have additional Assyrian samples, I am going to create a video presenting the collective autosomal evidence.
interesting video but Kurdish dna in Assyrians isn't necessarily from rape. It could be from ancient mixing or more likely Kurds having Armenian ancestry...whether ancient or recent.
interesting video but Kurdish dna in Assyrians isn't necessarily from rape. It could be from ancient mixing or more likely Kurds having Armenian ancestry...whether ancient or recent.
What da hell is Kurdish DNA? There's no such thing.
ChechenRebelZ
2010-04-22, 15:23
This is why we need more Assyrians at 23andMe and deCODEme. We need more Assyrians genetically tested because it will show we cluster close with each other and that Assyrians are an ethnic, genetic group, regardless of haplogroups or church denomination or various neo-Aramaic dialects.
It'll make all the morons shut up because they can't argue against science.I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything (on the contrary - I only have a basic knowledge about genetics) but this is my take on the whole thing...
The thing is, some people will just observe the observable Assyrian phenotypes, which range from pale skinned to swarthy skinned. When we take this observation into account and take into consideration the haplotypes of the various people present within this population (and populations around the near east and parts of southern Europe), we actually realise that people within the same populations actually belong to completely different haplogroups.
This means that people within these populations would actually have had different migratory histories (in which they gained differing molecular adaptations as expressed by the different amino acid sequences contained within their DNA) from one another, as typified by members of the same population or ethnic group having completely different single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP’s) from one another to the extent that some people may have got their defining mutations only several thousand years ago, whereas others may have got theirs 10s of thousands of years ago. The haplogroup is passed on from father to son, it is determined by information contained within the Y chromosome.
The only possible conclusion you could come up with is that these differently looking people within the same populations with their different SNPs is ultimately that they have had different origins from one another but at some point in time they found a common bond be it due to a language, religion, some culture, allegiance to a leader or territory, etc… This would make sense in the Middle East region which is obviously a place were many different peoples and migrations have passed through at various points in the past.
Using some Assyrians on this forum as an example: You are haplogroup J1, the J1 haplogroup is more commonly found in southern Arabia, it would have had to have travelled up northwards at one point in time to get to the Levant, another Assyrian member here is E1b, this haplogroup would have had to have migrated northwards at one point in time as well (from a different source from J1), and finally another Assyrian is haplgroup G, this would have had to have come from the north/east (Caucasus) at some point in time. And if I remember correctly it just so happens that Humanist is belongs to haplogroup G and he also coincidently appears to have a slightly lighter skin complexion when compared to you. The thing about haplogroups is that people who share the same haplogroup would be descended from the same common paternal ancestor, which would mean in populations in which the people belong to completely different haplogroups such as R1,J,G,E, etc... would ultimately have had a different paternal influence, regardless if they cluster closely together now, which is due to the repeated mixing of these influences, i.e. their lineages have converged.
Now the reason why the Assyrians are a group of people that cluster very tightly with each other is because they belong to a population that has been in decline for several thousand years, the Assyrian genepool has been narrowing for a long time, this should result in the Assyrian cluster becoming more restricted. We can even see evidence for this within the thread on Composite BGA European and Global plots, the cluster results show that Humanist and his grandmother cluster very closely to each other and they are both close to you. Whereas the distance between data points of someone some else who has been tested and have had a close family member tested is wider, in this case fatale_noir and her father are separated by a greater distance than Humanist and his grandmother and the distance between fatale_noir and her father is greater than the distance of all the 3 Assyrians tested together have.
As for the haplogroups are nothing at all detractors, my response is: Why is it in areas with a wide variety of haplogroups present like in Italy, Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Iran, etc… also display a wide range of phenotypes. In Italy for example the people in northern Italy tend to be lighter skinned then the people in southern Italy, the people in northern Italy are also more likely to belong to haplogroups R1b and I, whereas the people in southern Italy tend to belong to haplogroup J and E.
Why in areas like western Europe is the frequency of haplogroup R1b very high (thus the region is a relatively homogeneous region inregards to the Ydna haplogroup R1b) and why do western Europeans tend to appear pale skinned and long faced. Why is the frequency of haplogroup J1 very high in southern Arabia and why do those people appear swarthy, likewise why is haplogroup O found in most Chinese and why do Chinese people tend to look Mongoloid? Why is haplogroup A found in certain African populations at a high frequency and why do they look the way they look. What kind of events/conditions do you think would have been needed to give rise to a mutation in the first place? What do mutations represent? Are mutations expressed by changes to amino acid sequences that make up the base pairs within our DNA? What does it mean when two individuals have different sequences? This is my issue with completely neglecting ydna.
Haplogroup distribution within a population should be very telling I suspect of the inputs one has received. I suspect it is plausible that people would have had inputs roughly corresponding to the haplogroup incident rate within a particular area or region.
Personally I'd love to see more middle eastern populations being clustered.
As for the haplogroups are nothing at all detractors, my response is: Why is it in areas with a wide variety of haplogroups present like in Italy, Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Iran, etc… also display a wide range of phenotypes. In Italy for example the people in northern Italy tend to be lighter skinned then the people in southern Italy, the people in northern Italy are also more likely to belong to haplogroups R1b and I, whereas the people in southern Italy tend to belong to haplogroup J and E.
Why in areas like western Europe is the frequency of haplogroup R1b very high (thus the region is a relatively homogeneous region inregards to the Ydna haplogroup R1b) and why do western Europeans tend to appear pale skinned and long faced. Why is the frequency of haplogroup J1 very high in southern Arabia and why do those people appear swarthy, likewise why is haplogroup O found in most Chinese and why do Chinese people tend to look Mongoloid? Why is haplogroup A found in certain African populations at a high frequency and why do they look the way they look. What kind of events/conditions do you think would have been needed to give rise to a mutation in the first place? What do mutations represent? Are mutations expressed by changes to amino acid sequences that make up the base pairs within our DNA? What does it mean when two individuals have different sequences? This is my issue with completely neglecting ydna.
Haplogroup distribution within a population should be very telling I suspect of the inputs one has received. I suspect it is plausible that people would have had inputs roughly corresponding to the haplogroup incident rate within a particular area or region.
Personally I'd love to see more middle eastern populations being clustered.
Y-DNA haplogroup for most part seems very useless if you wanna prove your heritage, specially when you come from the middle east where the area has already been very mixed.
Seriously, if we look at some of these Y-DNA haplogroups we notice that they date up to 10,000 years ago and before that, at that time civilization was just starting to take shape, and by the time there was such thing as an Assyrian kingdom (4000 years ago) all these haplogroups that you see today in the middle east were likely there 4000 years ago anyways.
Also the haplogroup has nothing to do with how you look, go look at the Central Asian Turks who look like Mongols, a big majority in them are R1a which apparently is a European haplogroup and is found highly in Russians, Ukrainians, and Eastern Europeans in general.
EliasAlucard
2010-04-22, 16:17
I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything (on the contrary - I only have a basic knowledge about genetics) but this is my take on the whole thing...
The thing is, some people will just observe the observable Assyrian phenotypes, which range from pale skinned to swarthy skinned. When we take this observation into account and take into consideration the haplotypes of the various people present within this population (and populations around the near east and parts of southern Europe), we actually realise that people within the same populations actually belong to completely different haplogroups.
This means that people within these populations would actually have had different migratory histories (in which they gained differing molecular adaptations as expressed by the different amino acid sequences contained within their DNA) from one another, as typified by members of the same population or ethnic group having completely different single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP’s) from one another to the extent that some people may have got their defining mutations only several thousand years ago, whereas others may have got theirs 10s of thousands of years ago. The haplogroup is passed on from father to son, it is determined by information contained within the Y chromosome.
The only possible conclusion you could come up with is that these differently looking people within the same populations with their different SNPs is ultimately that they have had different origins from one another but at some point in time they found a common bond be it due to a language, religion, some culture, allegiance to a leader or territory, etc… This would make sense in the Middle East region which is obviously a place were many different peoples and migrations have passed through at various points in the past.
Using some Assyrians on this forum as an example: You are haplogroup J1, the J1 haplogroup is more commonly found in southern Arabia, it would have had to have travelled up northwards at one point in time to get to the Levant, another Assyrian member here is E1b, this haplogroup would have had to have migrated northwards at one point in time as well (from a different source from J1), and finally another Assyrian is haplgroup G, this would have had to have come from the north/east (Caucasus) at some point in time. And if I remember correctly it just so happens that Humanist is belongs to haplogroup G and he also coincidently appears to have a slightly lighter skin complexion when compared to you. The thing about haplogroups is that people who share the same haplogroup would be descended from the same common paternal ancestor, which would mean in populations in which the people belong to completely different haplogroups such as R1,J,G,E, etc... would ultimately have had a different paternal influence, regardless if they cluster closely together now, which is due to the repeated mixing of these influences, i.e. their lineages have converged.
Now the reason why the Assyrians are a group of people that cluster very tightly with each other is because they belong to a population that has been in decline for several thousand years, the Assyrian genepool has been narrowing for a long time, this should result in the Assyrian cluster becoming more restricted. We can even see evidence for this within the thread on Composite BGA European and Global plots, the cluster results show that Humanist and his grandmother cluster very closely to each other and they are both close to you. Whereas the distance between data points of someone some else who has been tested and have had a close family member tested is wider, in this case fatale_noir and her father are separated by a greater distance than Humanist and his grandmother and the distance between fatale_noir and her father is greater than the distance of all the 3 Assyrians tested together have.
As for the haplogroups are nothing at all detractors, my response is: Why is it in areas with a wide variety of haplogroups present like in Italy, Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Iran, etc… also display a wide range of phenotypes. In Italy for example the people in northern Italy tend to be lighter skinned then the people in southern Italy, the people in northern Italy are also more likely to belong to haplogroups R1b and I, whereas the people in southern Italy tend to belong to haplogroup J and E.
Why in areas like western Europe is the frequency of haplogroup R1b very high (thus the region is a relatively homogeneous region inregards to the Ydna haplogroup R1b) and why do western Europeans tend to appear pale skinned and long faced. Why is the frequency of haplogroup J1 very high in southern Arabia and why do those people appear swarthy, likewise why is haplogroup O found in most Chinese and why do Chinese people tend to look Mongoloid? Why is haplogroup A found in certain African populations at a high frequency and why do they look the way they look. What kind of events/conditions do you think would have been needed to give rise to a mutation in the first place? What do mutations represent? Are mutations expressed by changes to amino acid sequences that make up the base pairs within our DNA? What does it mean when two individuals have different sequences? This is my issue with completely neglecting ydna.
Haplogroup distribution within a population should be very telling I suspect of the inputs one has received. I suspect it is plausible that people would have had inputs roughly corresponding to the haplogroup incident rate within a particular area or region.
Personally I'd love to see more middle eastern populations being clustered.1) J1e originated most likely somewhere in either Anatolia or the Levant, and in tandem with a proto-Semitic language, spread southward to the Arabian peninsula and the Horn of Africa, according to Chiaroni et al. 2009, see thread here (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=313) for discussion.
2) Humanist does not have lighter skin complexion than me (he has lighter hair and eyes, but that's about it). And in pigmentation SNP markers, I score higher than he does with Europeans. He is "whiter" than me, so to say, but it has nothing to do with his Y-DNA.
3) Point is, you shouldn't try correlating (de)pigmentation markers with haplogroups, as it doesn't really make any sense, because traits that encode for lighter skin, hair or eye colour, might as well have originally mutated in a woman and was selected for by certain men of various Y-DNA lineages, who got only daughters with said woman, and the subsequent association with these specific pigmentation traits might have been spread by men from an entirely different Y-DNA lineage.
4) That said, you can never be certain what Y-DNA or mtDNA the first "white man" actually carried, so to say; for all we know, he could've been Y-DNA E1b. We don't know because the entire haplogroup clade system, tough somewhat useful for understanding human genealogy, is a very flawed genealogy methodology to trace phenetic traits, as it is dynamic and doesn't always preserve all frequencies of lineages depending on how much offspring each male or female haplogroup lineage has in each and every generation, and their subsequent contribution to the gene pool, etc. etc. 5,000 years ago Y-DNA I1 or I2 may have been a lot more dominant in Europe, until they were squeezed from both sides by Y-DNA R1a and R1b (just an example for the sake of argument).
5) Assyrians cluster so tightly because we are relatively inbred (but not extremely so, like the Kurds) and have a maintained a strict endogamy the past 2,600 years, much in part, thanks to Christianity and our hostile attitude to Islam. This is also why almost all Muslims in the Middle East hate us, because we condescend them by intentionally excluding them from the Assyrian gene pool through religious discrimination, most likely as an excuse since we in actuality consider Arabs racially/genetically inferior.
6) Assyrians haven't at all been in decline. On the contrary, we're probably more numerous today than ever before in history. But Muslims have a much higher birthrate, as they practice polygamy (Assyrians don't) and breed like rats. That said, a lot of Muslims in the Middle East happen to have Assyrian ancestry, even though they deny it because they are rootless or happen to be in an anti-Assyrian state of mind (which makes them race traitors, provided that they actually have Assyrian ancestry). And as you can see on the BGA PCA plot (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/images/upload/genetics/BGA_ForumBiodiversity_Euro.png), Assyrians are indigenous and racially pure Anatolians (as opposed to pseudo-Turks, who have minor and known Turco-Mongol admixture).
7) fatale_noir's distance on the PCA plot between her and her father is because she has some Italian ancestry and less Swedish ancestry, which pulls her away from her father on the PCA plot. But this is only when fatale_noir is compared individually with those reference populations; in reality, between her and her father, they cluster very close with each other.
8) That Assyrians display a rich variety of phenotypes doesn't really affect where we cluster on the PCA plot, because PCA plot position has a lot to do with homogeneity which is the result of a stable endogamy process throughout many centuries.
Y-DNA haplogroup for most part seems very useless if you wanna prove your heritage, specially when you come from the middle east where the area has already been very mixed.It's not useless, it's just misunderstood and sometimes dogmatic conclusions are drawn out of haplogroup frequencies. One must always keep in mind that your haplogroups only represent your most recent lineage, and that you have thousands of ancestors who all had different haplogroups and subclades of which you did not inherit. This is why genome-wide SNP is superior for ancestry, because it looks at your haplogroups and your autosomal DNA.
It's not useless, it's just misunderstood and sometimes dogmatic conclusions are drawn out of haplogroup frequencies. One must always keep in mind that your haplogroups only represent your most recent lineage, and that you have thousands of ancestors who all had different haplogroups and subclades of which you did not inherit. This is why genome-wide SNP is superior for ancestry, because it looks at your haplogroups and your autosomal DNA.
It's not useless if you live in an isolated community, for instance if you're from an island that has 100 men and they all have haplogroup O but you're the only one with a different haplogroup, then that gives you a better picture about your heritage, but where we come from it's a different story, the middle east has been populated by many different groups and is one of the most mixed areas on earth, specially our region to be exact.
As I said, all of those haplogroups were most likely there 4000 years ago when Assyria was established, so whether an Assyrian is haplogroup J1, J2, R1b, or heck even L, it does not mean this person's paternal ancestor was not living in the Assyrian area 4000 years ago.
EliasAlucard
2010-04-22, 16:44
It's not useless if you live in an isolated community, for instance if you're from an island that has 100 men and they all have haplogroup O but you're the only one with a different haplogroup, then that gives you a better picture about your heritage, but where we come from it's a different story, the middle east has been populated by many different groups and is one of the most mixed areas on earth, specially our region to be exact.I understand your analogy but in time it would result in the same distortion of ancestral lineages. What would happen is that in time the person with different Y-DNA would have a lot of offspring that are very similar to the rest of the island's population, and a lot of his offspring wouldn't always be of the same Y-DNA as himself. This is because haplogroups are sex-specific.
Now, if the human species reproduced asexually and we only had autosomal haplogroups (instead of two sex-specific markers), haplogroups would've been very useful to trace and pinpoint ancestry.
As I said, all of those haplogroups were most likely there 4000 years ago when Assyria was established, so whether an Assyrian is haplogroup J1, J2, R1b, or heck even L, it does not mean this person's paternal ancestor was not living in the Assyrian area 4000 years ago.Agreed. But it's very likely J-P58 was the original Semitic marker :):p
Now, if the human species reproduced asexually and we only had autosomal haplogroups (instead of two sex-specific markers), haplogroups would've been very useful to trace and pinpoint ancestry.Agreed. But it's very likely J-P58 was the original Semitic marker :):p
Well to believe in a Semitic marker I would have to believe in a Shem, and to believe in a Shem means I would have to see the evidence in his existence, no evidence, no cookie :p
What da hell is Kurdish DNA? There's no such thing.
It's in that video...something along the lines of Kurdish dna being the result of rape...they weren't specific as to which haplotype, etc... My point is that "Kurdish" dna in Assyrians can be the result of several factors; the most likely being both Kurds and Assyrians having some Armenian ancestry (whether ancient or more recent).
Humanist
2010-04-22, 21:26
2) Humanist does not have lighter skin complexion than me (he has lighter hair and eyes, but that's about it). And in pigmentation SNP markers, I score higher than he does with Europeans. He is "whiter" than me, so to say, but it has nothing to do with his Y-DNA.
Regarding the skin pigmentation associated gene, SLC45A2, I have most in common with Stygian. Humanist ≈ Stygian @ SLC45A2 (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=67092&postcount=37).
I can no longer do a one-to-many compare at 23andMe, but when the function remained active, my greatest pigmentation match %s were with a Swedish/Northern European woman (https://www.23andme.com/user/?profile=d4081926aae55618), a Bulgarian woman (https://www.23andme.com/user/?profile=5fd7b274a39a208e), and a Spaniard (https://www.23andme.com/user/?profile=5bfbbecbab0730a9). Stygian (https://www.23andme.com/user/?community_profile=154b2535aef34330), if I recall, was within my top ten pigmentation matches.
For what it is worth, and based strictly on phenotype, I thought you and I, Elias, had very similar complexions. I know it may be difficult to tell considering I seldom go without facial hair, but clean shaven, I definitely see a close similarity.
A picture of me taken last year. (http://www.wehrkreis.com/pg2009vin.jpg)
A picture from my younger years. Clean shaven. (http://wehrkreis.com/BunzGibbaz.jpg)
And me as a child. (http://www.wehrkreis.com/pgyoung.jpg)
It is odd how some people take current haplogroup frequencies, make assumptions on those frequencies and deduce that those frequencies were the same many thousand of years ago in the same people if they even existed thousands of years ago, and somehow translate those frequencies to mean or prove point of origin for that haplogroup. And further they associate such things like skin, hair and eye color from those haplogroups which can change in one generation.
I would say that was moronic of people to think like that.
ChechenRebelZ
2010-04-23, 23:48
And as you can see on the BGA PCA plot (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/images/upload/genetics/BGA_ForumBiodiversity_Euro.png), Assyrians are indigenous and racially pure Anatolians (as opposed to pseudo-Turks, who have minor and known Turco-Mongol admixture).I don’t really have an issue with the other parts of your post but this part is the main exception. Sorry I can’t seem to see that Assyrians are indigenous and 'racially pure' Anatolians based on that plot.
I see the Assyrian members being tightly bounded together, but I see the two Turkish people clustering away from the Assyrians (one of them very significantly so - his distance from Assyrians was further than the distance between the Greek and Maltese member have from each other).
Anatolia was the name given to the Asia Minor Peninsula which didn’t even encompass all of Assyria and the word Anatolia means East in Greek, why do you insist on using that word to describe people (Anatolian would just mean 'Eastern') That doesn’t even make sense.
I swear Anatolia was a region which always had different ethnic and racial types, so naturally if Assyrians were indigenous to Anatolia, they should resemble these different racial types as much as the Turks do. By racial types I mean different Caucasoid types.
I don’t even know where your ancestors were based in Turkey nor do I know about Humanist and the 2 Turkish members, so its hard for me to analyse the plot. My guess would be that you and Humanist perhaps had ancestors in the southeast region of modern day Turkey.
All I see is that the Assyrian position is to the southeast of the Greek and Maltese participants of the project and to the southwest of the Turkish member Benk who I think I read somewhere had Turkic ancestry confirmed on 23andme.
If Turks, or some Turks have minor and known Turco-Mongol admixture then how would they be pseudo-Turks? This would only prove that they have a direct genetic link to Turkic populations further east, regardless of how small that link is now.
Your friend birko doesn’t seem to share your racially pure sentiments, at least he acknowledges that the middle east was and is one of the most racially diverse/mixed places on the planet, which would mean the Assyrians are racially diverse, shame you can’t.
It's in that video...something along the lines of Kurdish dna being the result of rape...they weren't specific as to which haplotype, etc... My point is that "Kurdish" dna in Assyrians can be the result of several factors; the most likely being both Kurds and Assyrians having some Armenian ancestry (whether ancient or more recent).
While rape did happen everywhere Kurdish tribes usually kidnapped women for themselves, and when they plundered they either massacred everyone or they stole the leftover for themselves, if there's any rape I would bet my money on the Mongols/Turks before Kurds.
On the other hand, there's no such thing as Kurdish haplogroup, since the Kurds themselves are super mixed with these haplogroups it's almost impossible to determine whether the rape was done by a Kurd or not, the only way to tell your relations to a Kurd is through autosomal dna testing, now the Assyrians at 23andMe so far score high numbers with Armenians and Turkish people, I don't have a Kurd on my list to be able to tell the relationship, but I'm guessing our relationship with them will probably be similar to that of the Armenians and Turks from Turkey.
Humanist
2010-04-24, 00:11
Your friend birko doesn’t seem to share your racially pure sentiments...
Please, also recognize, that neither do I. Although I sincerely appreciate Alucard's efforts, and feel a strong bond with him, given he is my Assyrian brother, the two of us are, ideologically, regarding many matters, very far apart.
I don’t really have an issue with the other parts of your post but this part is the main exception. Sorry I can’t seem to see that Assyrians are indigenous and 'racially pure' Anatolians based on that plot.
I see the Assyrian members being tightly bounded together, but I see the two Turkish people clustering away from the Assyrians (one of them very significantly so - his distance from Assyrians was further than the distance between the Greek and Maltese member have from each other).
Anatolia was the name given to the Asia Minor Peninsula which didn’t even encompass all of Assyria and the word Anatolia means East in Greek, why do you insist on using that word to describe people (Anatolian would just mean 'Eastern') That doesn’t even make sense.
I swear Anatolia was a region which always had different ethnic and racial types, so naturally if Assyrians were indigenous to Anatolia, they should resemble these different racial types as much as the Turks do. By racial types I mean different Caucasoid types.
I don’t even know where your ancestors were based in Turkey nor do I know about Humanist and the 2 Turkish members, so its hard for me to analyse the plot. My guess would be that you and Humanist perhaps had ancestors in the southeast region of modern day Turkey.
All I see is that the Assyrian position is to the southeast of the Greek and Maltese participants of the project and to the southwest of the Turkish member Benk who I think I read somewhere had Turkic ancestry confirmed on 23andme.
If Turks, or some Turks have minor and known Turco-Mongol admixture then how would they be pseudo-Turks? This would only prove that they have a direct genetic link to Turkic populations further east, regardless of how small that link is now.
Your friend birko doesn’t seem to share your racially pure sentiments, at least he acknowledges that the middle east was and is one of the most racially diverse/mixed places on the planet, which would mean the Assyrians are racially diverse, shame you can’t.
I would say our close connection with Armenians (genetically and racially) would qualify us as having at least some link with Anatolia, mainly the east/southeast.
ChechenRebelZ
2010-05-03, 12:31
I would say our close connection with Armenians (genetically and racially) would qualify us as having at least some link with Anatolia, mainly the east/southeast.So you are a mixed peoples? You are Semites (Assyrians) + Indo-Europeans (Armenians).
EliasAlucard
2010-05-03, 12:58
I don’t really have an issue with the other parts of your post but this part is the main exception. Sorry I can’t seem to see that Assyrians are indigenous and 'racially pure' Anatolians based on that plot.It's because you don't have enough information about that PCA plot (and the pseudo-Turks). Assyrians don't have any Negroid nor Mongoloid admixture. You pseudo-Turks, do have Mongoloid admixture at low levels. Arabs have Negroid admixture. But Assyrians don't have that sort of admixture. And we're very close with each other on the PCA plot, which means Assyrians are a pure ethnic group on a genetic level. And the pseudo-Turks are within the Assyrian gene pool.
I see the Assyrian members being tightly bounded together, but I see the two Turkish people clustering away from the Assyrians (one of them very significantly so - his distance from Assyrians was further than the distance between the Greek and Maltese member have from each other).It's because Benk probably has some Balkan ancestry, which pulls him closer to the Balkans as you can see he has a drag toward Geto-Thracian. But regardless of that, he's much closer to Assyrians, which indicates that Assyrians are truly representative of the Anatolian gene pool.
Anatolia was the name given to the Asia Minor Peninsula which didn’t even encompass all of Assyria and the word Anatolia means East in Greek, why do you insist on using that word to describe people (Anatolian would just mean 'Eastern') That doesn’t even make sense.Because "Eastern" is a neutral name that's been used for a long time for that specific region. "Turkey" implies Turkic racial hegemony over non-Turkic Anatolian peoples. Which is not only anti-intellectual of any Anatolian to support, it's also unacceptable if you have any pride of your roots, to support the Turkic race and their rampage all over Anatolia.
I swear Anatolia was a region which always had different ethnic and racial types, so naturally if Assyrians were indigenous to Anatolia, they should resemble these different racial types as much as the Turks do. By racial types I mean different Caucasoid types.Whatever.
I don’t even know where your ancestors were based in Turkey nor do I know about Humanist and the 2 Turkish members, so its hard for me to analyse the plot. My guess would be that you and Humanist perhaps had ancestors in the southeast region of modern day Turkey.
All I see is that the Assyrian position is to the southeast of the Greek and Maltese participants of the project and to the southwest of the Turkish member Benk who I think I read somewhere had Turkic ancestry confirmed on 23andme.
If Turks, or some Turks have minor and known Turco-Mongol admixture then how would they be pseudo-Turks? This would only prove that they have a direct genetic link to Turkic populations further east, regardless of how small that link is now.It makes you pseudo-Turk because 95% of your ancestry isn't Turkic. Your overall ancestry is not Turkic, and you're therefore a joke when you pretend your entire ancestry is "Turkish". A sad joke.
Your friend birko doesn’t seem to share your racially pure sentiments, at least he acknowledges that the middle east was and is one of the most racially diverse/mixed places on the planet, which would mean the Assyrians are racially diverse, shame you can’t.It depends on what you mean by "race". Middle East has always had a strong Caucasoid base, for the most part. It's not like the Middle East was 33% Caucasoid, 33% Negroid and 33% Mongoloid. Sure, there's always been various ethnicities and phenotypes down there, but hardly the most racially diverse/mixed race place on the planet.
But then again, by your logic I assume you equal racial purity with blondism and Nordics?
So you are a mixed peoples? You are Semites (Assyrians) + Indo-Europeans (Armenians).If population genetics complied with your logic, we'd still be in the 1930's.
Semite! Sounds funny. Should have stayed in the Bible or just used linguistically.
I am a Semite, well, I speak a Semitic language. Pity, McDonald's BGA put me in the correct geographical zone, not in Ethiopia or Eritrea. I would really not feel comfortable placed with those folks, nice as they are. Better them than those Yemenis or Omanis.
So you are a mixed peoples? You are Semites (Assyrians) + Indo-Europeans (Armenians).
We've been mixing with Armenians for centuries, going as far back as ancient times. Because of the close bonds between our peoples intermarriage with them is not considered that exogamous by many Assyrians. So I guess that would make us mixed....it's reflected in our genes and it's not a state secret.
ChechenRebelZ
2010-05-04, 01:50
It's because you don't have enough information about that PCA plot (and the pseudo-Turks). Assyrians don't have any Negroid nor Mongoloid admixture. You pseudo-Turks, do have Mongoloid admixture at low levels. Arabs have Negroid admixture. But Assyrians don't have that sort of admixture.Turks have some Mongoloid admixture which proves that some of their ancestors came from central/east Asia. This influence might be small but it was obviously very decisive in shaping the identity of the Turkish people.
Fine “Assyrians” are ‘pure’ but Turks are not. But we have some different inputs from you, in which case makes us unique from you in our own unique Turkish way.
The Human and the Monkey share a lot of the same DNA. The Turk and the “Assyrian” also share a lot of DNA. But I am neither a Monkey, nor an Assyrian.
And we're very close with each other on the PCA plot, which means Assyrians are a pure ethnic group on a genetic level. And the pseudo-Turks are within the Assyrian gene pool.
Assyrians and their ancestries are localized to within parts of southwest Asia, Turks and their ancestries are also localized to parts of southwest Asia, but Turkish ancestries also have other different western (southeast European) and eastern inputs (central/east Asian).
How about you tell me about this “Assyrian gene pool”? Are the particular gene frequencies found within Assyrians also present in other southwest Asian (Leventine/Near Eastern) groups? Like Druze, Palestinians, Jews, Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, some Iranians. etc…?
It's because Benk probably has some Balkan ancestry, which pulls him closer to the Balkans as you can see he has a drag toward Geto-Thracian. But regardless of that, he's much closer to Assyrians, which indicates that Assyrians are truly representative of the Anatolian gene pool.Assyrians are within and near Turkey so obviously they will cluster within and near other peoples of Turkey. As Turkic lineages were not numerically dominant enough to shift the Turkish people cluster towards Siberia.
What would happen if Kurdish people are found to also be within or right next to the the same cluster as the Assyrians? (which I would sort of suspect to be the case based on geography and proclaimed common Hurrian heritage). Would that make them Iranicized Assyrians or would that make the Assyrians Assyrianized Kurds?
I don’t think Benk or you or Humanist should be on that PCA plot because you lot are not European. I thought Europe ended at the Bosphorus, half way through Istanbul. Assyria was never part of Europe.
Because "Eastern" is a neutral name that's been used for a long time for that specific region. "Turkey" implies Turkic racial hegemony over non-Turkic Anatolian peoples.For the mind that is obsessed about race and worried about ideologies like “pan-Turanism”, Turkey implies Turkic racial dominance over Asia Minor. But for others Turkey implies Turkic cultural and political hegemony (with a small but critically decisive input of central/east Asian genes) over Asia Minor which certainly was/is the case.
Which is not only anti-intellectual of any Anatolian to support, it's also unacceptable if you have any pride of your roots, to support the Turkic race and their rampage all over Anatolia.I don’t support any race, Turkic or otherwise, because I don’t believe in race because science has not proven discrete races, as human populations are like nodes on an interconnected grid, and things like gene frequencies are clinal and seem to be shaped by geography as opposed to language. And things like race and ethnicity are social constructions – including “Assyrian” regardless if it is an older social construction than Turkish or if some Turks are genetically very similar to “Assyrians”.
My Turkish culture and my Hanafi Sunni heritage means more to me than your Chaldean Catholic Assyrian/Armenian culture (I particularly hate Orthodox Christian and Catholic 'traditions' and culture) and heritage could ever mean to me. We have irreconcilable differences.
I have pride in my roots and identity and that is why I am proud to be Turkish and I am proud to know that some of my Turko-Mongol ancestors probably rampaged around Anatolia (and Europe), and I am proud to know that I’m probably relatively indigenous to Anatolia (so its my native land - my birth right), I am also half from Cyprus so I am probably partially indigenous to Cyprus as well (also my native land - my birth right)).
I have pride over Anatolia, that is why it angers me when you and people like you pretend the history of Anatolia just involves “Armenians”, “Assyrians”, and “Greeks”. Lets get something straight places like Adana were called so by the Hittites but the name was changed to Quwê by the Assyrians. The original name Adana was restored by the Turks. The only people disrespecting the heritage of that Anatolian town were you Assyrians (military expansionists).
It makes you pseudo-Turk because 95% of your ancestry isn't Turkic. Your overall ancestry is not Turkic, and you're therefore a joke when you pretend your entire ancestry is "Turkish". A sad joke.
No offence but any genetic test that says you are 100% or 99.99% ‘European‘ is a sad joke. I know if I am found to be 100% European I will only assume it is wrong as I don’t look 100% European, and would guess that I have a middle eastern input in me so my genetics can’t be 100% European.
I don’t care if most of my genes don’t come from outer Mongolia or not, me or anyone within my family don’t have any kind of collective memory of any non-Turkic ancestry. Our only identity is Turk and it always has been as far as we can trace back, we don’t have any other non-Turk ancestry. Our collective memory is what counts. To suggest that me or any Turk should call ourselves anything but Turk is just farcical.
I am the one who acknowledges that my ancestry is obviously not all east Asian Turkic, but you’re the one who pretends that his ancestry is an “Assyrian” one. Even though ancestry means common descent (check a dictionary) and if you Assyrians had a common ancestor your Y-DNA's would be of the same type from that same ancestor who founded your people, as this didn’t happen you all have these diverse haplogroups because you all don’t come from the same paternal ancestor.
What do you expect me to say? Any link to Assyrians was severed a long time ago. It is irreversibly cut.
It depends on what you mean by "race". Middle East has always had a strong Caucasoid base, for the most part. It's not like the Middle East was 33% Caucasoid, 33% Negroid and 33% Mongoloid. Sure, there's always been various ethnicities and phenotypes down there, but hardly the most racially diverse/mixed race place on the planet.
But then again, by your logic I assume you equal racial purity with blondism and Nordics?I don't know exactly, but:
This region looks like its paternal inputs were relatively similar(of the same stock), hence the homogenity of the haplogroups. (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4558/morepure.png)
This region looks like its paternal inputs were very diverse from each other. Hence the very different haplogroups being present and no single one over dominating. (http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1143/notpure.png)
The maternal inputs within this region look pretty homogeneous. (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6320/morepureafricanmtdna.png)
Whereas these ones look very diverse. (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3797/notpuremtdna.png)
If numerous different haplogroups suggests people underwent numerous different adaptions and migrations, less numerous different haplogroups suggests to me less numerous adaptions and migrations and a common stock and ancestry.
EliasAlucard
2010-05-04, 02:05
I'll answer later.
karakoyunlu
2010-05-04, 07:25
I think this video should give an idea to Elias the Racist. This is how he attacks Turks, isn't it?
Well here you go another "purist" racist is now attacking Assyrians.
Elias. Stop being a racist, you may be hit with your own weapon.
As in Islam we say relating one's lineage through DNA is only for animals not for humans.
---------- Post added 2010-05-04 at 06:28 ----------
Birko19 you are so quick to point out:
-that there is no Kurdish DNA
-that haplogroups date to tens of thousands of years and as such they can't be related to nationalities
I love this improvement.
Somehow birko19, Elias and all these people are very different when it comes to Turks. In search of "real" Turks but not "real" Assyrians, "real" Kurds, "real" etc....
Interesting. Not that I agree with this idiot video. But you guys should learn something from this and stop being racist against Turks.
---------- Post added 2010-05-04 at 06:28 ----------
Birko19 you are so quick to point out:
-that there is no Kurdish DNA
-that haplogroups date to tens of thousands of years and as such they can't be related to nationalities
I love this improvement.
Somehow birko19, Elias and all these people are very different when it comes to Turks. In search of "real" Turks but not "real" Assyrians, "real" Kurds, "real" etc....
Interesting. Not that I agree with this idiot video. But you guys should learn something from this and stop being racist against Turks.
Look, I think Elias is a little too strong in his opinions of various Anatolian populations, but it is understandable.
I have similar opinions about the Islamic religion, Muslims of whatever color, race, nationality, and just about all the inhabitants of the Middle East. It is an historic thing. We Maltese speak essentially a conquerors' language, part of the time when we were forced to become Muslims. And we have not forgotten, and will not forget. We know our history, what was before the Muslims came, and what was there after.
The Osmanlis have created a lot of hate in Europe, also in the Middle East, and you have to take it on board and not do the cowardly thing you have been doing, which is pretending it doesn't exist or didn't happen. Must be part of your Asiatic blood, as it is common in East Asians like the Japanese. Well if you want to be in Europe you have to become European in thought and deed, and drop the Asiatic rubbish.
You also have to accept that Anatolians are not the descendants of Mongoloid Turko Mongols but the descendants of the inhabitants of Anatolia whose ancestors were in that part of the world when the Seljuks and the Osmanli were running around on all fours as they had no Mongol ponies to ride, mare milk to drink, fermented ghee to eat or Yurts to live in.
Look, I think Elias is a little too strong in his opinions of various Anatolian populations, but it is understandable.
I have similar opinions about the Islamic religion, Muslims of whatever color, race, nationality, and just about all the inhabitants of the Middle East. It is an historic thing. We Maltese speak essentially a conquerors' language, part of the time when we were forced to become Muslims. And we have not forgotten, and will not forget. We know our history, what was before the Muslims came, and what was there after.
The Osmanlis have created a lot of hate in Europe, also in the Middle East, and you have to take it on board and not do the cowardly thing you have been doing, which is pretending it doesn't exist or didn't happen. Must be part of your Asiatic blood, as it is common in East Asians like the Japanese. Well if you want to be in Europe you have to become European in thought and deed, and drop the Asiatic rubbish.
You also have to accept that Anatolians are not the descendants of Mongoloid Turko Mongols but the descendants of the inhabitants of Anatolia whose ancestors were in that part of the world when the Seljuks and the Osmanli were running around on all fours as they had no Mongol ponies to ride, mare milk to drink, fermented ghee to eat or Yurts to live in.
No truer words were spoken.
FR_Cresent
2010-05-24, 06:02
It's not useless if you live in an isolated community, for instance if you're from an island that has 100 men and they all have haplogroup O but you're the only one with a different haplogroup, then that gives you a better picture about your heritage, but where we come from it's a different story, the middle east has been populated by many different groups and is one of the most mixed areas on earth, specially our region to be exact.
As I said, all of those haplogroups were most likely there 4000 years ago when Assyria was established, so whether an Assyrian is haplogroup J1, J2, R1b, or heck even L, it does not mean this person's paternal ancestor was not living in the Assyrian area 4000 years ago.
I think the following policy of the Assyrian Empire at that time ,contributed to the mixing of the haplogroups amongst the General populations of the middle east and the Assyrians in particular:
"The Assyrian conquerors invented a new policy towards the conquered: in order to prevent nationalist revolts by the conquered people, the Assyrians would force the people they conquered to migrate in large numbers to other areas of the empire. Besides guaranteeing the security of an empire built off of conquered people of different cultures and languages, these mass deportations of the populations in the Middle East, Mesopotamia, and Armenia, turned the region into a melting pot of diverse cultures, religions, and languages. Whereas there would be little cultural contact between the conquered and the conquerors in early Mesopotamian history, under the Assyrians the entire area became a vast experiment in cultural mixing. It was the Assyrian monarch, Sargon II (721-705 BC), who first forcefully relocated Hebrews after the conquest of Israel, the northern kingdom of the Hebrews. Although this was a comparatively mild deportation and perfectly in line with Assyrian practice, it marks the historical beginning of the Jewish diaspora. This chapter in the Jewish diaspora, however, never has been really written, for the Hebrews deported from Israel seem to have blended in with Assyrian society and, by the time Nebuchadnezzar II conquers Judah (587 BC), the southern kingdom of the Hebrews, the Israelites deported by Sargon II have disappeared nameless and faceless into the sands of northern Mesopotamia. "
Yes but those haplogroups are older than recorded history. Long before Sargon and any possible experiments at transmigration. What the Indonesians call Transmigrasi, a policy of shifting out Javanese Indonesians to less populated parts of Indonesia, including places where the locals don't want it, as in Irian Jaya. Personally I treat Bible stories like those of the Grimm brothers or even those of J. K. Rowling, fantasy and oftentimes pure bullshit that uses some real events with made up histories.
Anything to do with the Jews and their supposed ancestors in Asia is a recipe in dissembling. Don't believe anything they say or claim. Don't accept their fanciful ancestry.
Now if you can prove what you wrote with sources which don't track back to the Bible or other "holy" book, I will believe what you wrote as true. Some clay tablets will suffice, after all there are millions of them, some must refer to the King and his policy of transmigration. It could be the man was ahead of his time, in not practicing genocide.
EliasAlucard
2010-06-06, 08:55
Off Topic about Khorsabad, deleted.
//mod
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