View Full Version : Paleoeuropeans and East Iranian Peoples
I will post this in Iranology because it is about formation of East-Iranian peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoeuropeans
I will post this in Iranology because it is about formation of East-Iranian peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoeuropeans
Meh...that's a pretty crazy Wiki entry. There's actually no evidence of any migration of such Paleoeuropeans from Ukraine to Central Europe during the Copper and early Bronze Age (ie. Proto-Indo-European period).
There were indeed contacts between Eastern and Central Europe, but the large scale migrations actually went from west to east, with the movement of the ultra-leptomorphic Corded Ware folk into the forest-steppe zone of Russia. These groups then helped to form the proto-Indo-Iranian tribes of the Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, along with the more robust Eastern Europeans, in Ukraine and southern Russia.
As for the Eastern Iranians, it's unlikely they had a large amount of this Northern/Eastern Europid element in their ranks...
In the Pamirs there was a special situation. The Saka of the Pamirs belonged to the dolichcocranic narrow-faced Indo-Afghan type of the eastern branch of the Mediterranean race. This type was present here already in the Bronze Age.
Elena E. Kuz'mina, James P. Mallory (Editor), The Origin of the Indo-Iranians (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Origin-of-the-Indo-Iranians/Elena-E-Kuzmina/e/9789004160545), Vol. 3, Barnes & Noble, 2007
Karhunkynsi
2010-04-12, 18:03
Nice picture of coloured Yuezi statue from Otenor's wiki-article
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/Coloured_Yuezi_statue.jpg
According to article it was found from Uzbekistan. Dated to 1st century BC.
Article does not give reference to pic so it might be reliable or not.
Otherwise article seem to be straight out from the fantastic school of Slavo-Aryan history writing. It even makes assumption that HG R1a1 was born in a man who was the first speaker of Indo-European. Now we know that proto-Indo-European was not a language but a bloke. How nice :D
As for the Eastern Iranians, it's unlikely they had a large amount of this Northern/Eastern Europid element in their ranks...
Elena E. Kuz'mina, James P. Mallory (Editor), The Origin of the Indo-Iranians (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Origin-of-the-Indo-Iranians/Elena-E-Kuzmina/e/9789004160545), Vol. 3, Barnes & Noble, 2007
Thats true. That region was originally inhabited by Irano-Afghan Mediterranean, who mixed with the others
---------- Post added 2010-04-12 at 18:23 ----------
There was also another article --Pamir-Fergana race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir-Fergana_race
But it was edited by somebody-----you can preview the version by Math920 in the history of the article.
---------- Post added 2010-04-12 at 18:25 ----------
And also "West Asian race" is in my opinion-- Armenoid.
Nice picture of coloured Yuezi statue from Otenor's wiki-article
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/Coloured_Yuezi_statue.jpg
According to article it was found from Uzbekistan. Dated to 1st century BC.
Article does not give reference to pic so it might be reliable or not.
It comes from some book called The Secret History of the Tatars, by A. Bayar.
If real, this statue would be a pretty mind blowing discovery in the context of the latest ancient DNA results from that part of the world.
Geto-Thracian
2010-04-13, 05:58
The main warrior/civilizers R1a's & R1b's of the white race expanded out from the Carpatho-Danubian motherland to dominate eurasia....you're all welcome!
Were your Judges, brainsurgeons, Pro-athletes, Nobel laureates, Kings, Presidents, gang leaders, UFC champions....
........:unsure:shhhhhhhhh....(master race!)
Karhunkynsi
2010-04-13, 07:26
If real, this statue would be a pretty mind blowing discovery in the context of the latest ancient DNA results from that part of the world.
The Statue looks like Norwegian skilegend Björn Dählie
http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/dynamic/00041/bjorn_dahlie_143_41565i143.jpg
The Statue looks like Norwegian skilegend Björn Dählie
http://www.nyteknik.se/multimedia/dynamic/00041/bjorn_dahlie_143_41565i143.jpg
Norwegian dude look like a narrow faced long skulled Nordic, while Yuezhis(Kushans) are claimed to be brachycephalic...
I have found another source for that picture. It seems to be statue from Khalchayan palace in Uzbekistan.
http://www.sairamtour.com/news/gems/47.html
And also appearance of light pigmented minority in the modern Middle East, Central Asia or northern India is not a surprise.
Norwegian dude look like a narrow faced long skulled Nordic, while Yuezhis(Kushans) are claimed to be brachycephalic...
I have found another source for that picture. It seems to be statue from Khalchayan palace in Uzbekistan.
http://www.sairamtour.com/news/gems/47.html
And also appearance of light pigmented minority in the modern Middle East, Central Asia or northern India is not a surprise.
The early Indo-Iranians included individuals of both types, from the really long headed Corded types to much more robust and round headed ones, and everything in between.
EliasAlucard
2010-04-13, 08:17
Who the hell wrote this shitty Judeopedia article? It doesn't cite sources, it totally goes against NPOV and probably violates various wiki policies like no original research and shit like that. It will most likely be deleted or entirely rewritten.
The early Indo-Iranians included individuals of both types, from the really long headed Corded types to much more robust and round headed ones, and everything in between.
You might be right
---------- Post added 2010-04-13 at 08:16 ----------
Who the hell wrote this shitty Judeopedia article? It doesn't cite sources, it totally goes against NPOV and probably violates various wiki policies like no original research and shit like that. It will most likely be deleted or entirely rewritten.
The same article did exist in Russian wikipedia for a long time but in much less informative form.Half of the article is a translation from Russian wikipedia ----the other part about east-iranians---I don't know!
Karhunkynsi
2010-04-13, 11:58
I wonder if Kalash has any connection to Kushan/Yuezi ? There is that one famous anthrofora pic about Kalash girl with very North Europoid features.
I wonder if Kalash has any connection to Kushan/Yuezi ? There is that one famous anthrofora pic about Kalash girl with very North Europoid features.
Kalash? Now it doesn't matter! Couple of days ago I was just reading Russian wikipedia, find and post english version of that article in this forum but now it is deleted. That Article was young (something like 10-5 days), and could be improved. Information the same like in Russian version but with PICTURES........ Seems like someone from this forum helped it being deleted. The wiki admins deleted even history .....Instead there is some Sh@t about "scientific racism in USSR"--LOL its like there was Racism in Soviet Union LOL. Also I have found that source---Alexander bayar "Secret history of Tatars" in electronic version
http://kitap.net.ru/bayar.php It is in Russian so I will start read it right now.
Russian version here
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Палеоевропейцы
If I will be online over the next weeks I will try to find the pictures in Russian sources and post them here.....Good luck.
It comes from some book called The Secret History of the Tatars, by A. Bayar.
If real, this statue would be a pretty mind blowing discovery in the context of the latest ancient DNA results from that part of the world.
It is real, and it has been known for a few decades now since it was unearthed by Soviet archeologists.
I think when it comes to the ancient Caucasoid populations of Central Asia (From Khorasan to Xinjiang) we need to distinguish between two sub-groups. One is the Tocharian element that has a striking resemblance to Northern/Western Europeans (red/blond hair, blue/green eyed, etc...) and was strongly represented in ancient central Asia, esp. in the eastern part of the region (Tarim basin/Xinjiang). The type seems to have been largely absorbed by the Turkic Uyghurs by the 8-9th century AD. The physical features of this ancient group can sometimes be seen in Uyghurs. The other group and what I assume to be the larger one is the Indo-Iranian, which can be found in relatively unmixed form in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and in more diluted/mixed form in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. This latter group tends to be more mediterranean/Irano-Afghan in terms of race.
I think when it comes to the ancient Caucasoid populations of Central Asia (From Khorasan to Xinjiang) we need to distinguish between two sub-groups. One is the Tocharian element that has a striking resemblance to Northern/Western Europeans (red/blond hair, blue/green eyed, etc...) and was strongly represented in ancient central Asia, esp. in the eastern part of the region (Tarim basin/Xinjiang). The type seems to have been largely absorbed by the Turkic Uyghurs by the 8-9th century AD. The physical features of this ancient group can sometimes be seen in Uyghurs. The other group and what I assume to be the larger one is the Indo-Iranian, which can be found in relatively unmixed form in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and in more diluted/mixed form in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. This latter group tends to be more mediterranean/Irano-Afghan in terms of race.
Well the Indo-Iranians derive from the Andronovo and Timber-Grave tribes...
Central European origins of the early Indo-European steppe tribes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/03/central-european-origins-of-early-indo.html)
Ancient Siberians carrying R1a1 had light eyes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2009/05/ancient-siberians-carrying-r1a1-had_24.html)
And is seems the earliest Tarim Basin Caucasoids were related to them.
Bronze Age Tarim Basin "Caucasoids" carried R1a1 (and European mtDNA lineages too) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/02/bronze-age-tarim-basin-caucasoids.html)
Well the Indo-Iranians derive from the Andronovo and Timber-Grave tribes...
Central European origins of the early Indo-European steppe tribes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/03/central-european-origins-of-early-indo.html)
Ancient Siberians carrying R1a1 had light eyes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2009/05/ancient-siberians-carrying-r1a1-had_24.html)
And is seems the earliest Tarim Basin Caucasoids were related to them.
Bronze Age Tarim Basin "Caucasoids" carried R1a1 (and European mtDNA lineages too) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/02/bronze-age-tarim-basin-caucasoids.html)
I agree that they were related and shared the R1a1 haplotype but it doesn't exclude the possibility that they had a mediterranean phenotype. After all many Iranians today (esp. in eastern Iran) carry that haplotype but still have a mediterranean appearance. The Tocharians had a more slavic/Germanic appearance but I think the Indo-Iranians (Sogdians, Bactrians, etc...) probably were more Irano-Afghan, Armenoid, etc...similar to the Tajiks and Pashtuns who still live in the region.
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