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View Full Version : Will genetics ever be a gateway to citizenship?



ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 10:14
Is there any nation in the world that accepts genetics as proof of descent to claim citizenship ? just a curious case as I have read it here and there but can't put my finger on whether it really exists yet or not. And do you think it should become something we can do? would you do it and for what country?

Ether
2015-03-10, 13:56
Not in the way you are looking for. In some countries they already use forensic genetics in asylum cases to verify whether an asylee belongs to a certain ethnicity.

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 14:01
Not in the way you are looking for. In some countries they already use forensic genetics in asylum cases to verify whether an asylee belongs to a certain ethnicity.

I seem to remember reading an article on how Israel wanted to use genetics to prove jewish lineage before giving the person citizenship,not sure if that was legit or if it ever came to fruition.

EliasAlucard
2015-03-10, 14:48
Israel is already on the front-line with genetics=citizenship. Generally speaking this is a nationalist preference, and Israel is a nationalist state. Swedish neo-Nazi party, Svenskarnas parti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_the_Swedes), have also suggested gene tests for citizenship in "uncertain cases", but it's very unlikely they'll get any influence any time soon.

General Genetics Discussion ---> Race & Ethnicity in Society

//mod

Simi
2015-03-10, 16:22
Yes. When the European version of ISIS emerges - "Aryan State" - genetics will be key to citizenship, and probably survival.

EliasAlucard
2015-03-10, 16:23
Yes. When the European version of ISIS emerges - "Aryan State" - genetics will be key to citizenship, and probably survival.When do you predict that'll happen?

Vetton
2015-03-10, 16:39
Yes, that would be more realistic than just give everyone a citinzeship that it has become a meaningless paper and nothing more. As if everyone could be "spanish" or italian, I think that is plain travesty.
Also couples who want to have kids should pass many tests before (IQ, mental stabiliy, etc) it's just ridiculous how the most stupid in society are the ones reproducing the most.

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 16:47
Yes, that would be more realistic than just give everyone a citinzeship that it has become a meaningless paper and nothing more. As if everyone could be "spanish" or italian, I think that is plain travesty.
Also couples who want to have kids should pass many tests before (IQ, mental stabiliy, etc) it's just ridiculous how the most stupid in society are the ones reproducing the most.

Do you think there should be certain requirements? For example myself, i have found connections to Sweden through DNA.Say I want to apply for swedish citizenship should I be entitled to it if I have the Connection small or large?

Ether
2015-03-10, 17:24
Yes. When the European version of ISIS emerges - "Aryan State" - genetics will be key to citizenship, and probably survival.


Never going to happen so long the EU exists. Any kind of semi-Nazi state will be economically marginalized to the point of failure.

Sully
2015-03-10, 18:06
Well, Ireland does give citizenships to the foreign born grandchildren of Irish citizens. So, as long as at least one of your grandparents was born in Ireland, you can register for Irish citizenship. They, however, do not allow Irish citizenship because of distant Irish ancestry. I think Poland, Germany, Italy, and India have similar laws. But I haven't heard of a country giving citizenship to a person just because they showed significant ancestry from that country through a DNA test.

link (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html)

flapperlife
2015-03-10, 18:16
For many Native American tribes, genetics is the only way you can be an enrolled member.

EliasAlucard
2015-03-10, 18:46
Do you think there should be certain requirements? For example myself, i have found connections to Sweden through DNA.Say I want to apply for swedish citizenship should I be entitled to it if I have the Connection small or large?I don't think it counts if you as a Persian have a few distant cousins in Sweden. Someone like Nadia Björlin (half-Swedish, half-Persian, plus she's beautiful; beauty goes a long way) I'm sure could pass such a genetics=citizenship test, but not a fully Iranian with no Swedish ancestry.


Never going to happen so long the EU exists. Any kind of semi-Nazi state will be economically marginalized to the point of failure.Not like the powers that be in the EU today, no. But this could all change seeing as how Europeans are becoming more and more nationalistic for every year.


For many Native American tribes, genetics is the only way you can be an enrolled member.Their situation is a special case though, and sadly so. They don't have much else aside from genetics, and even then their pedigree is often mixed up with Europeans.

CommandoUSA
2015-03-10, 18:51
Flapperlife, how do they determine an applicant belongs to this tribe but not that tribe, and which tribes are you specifically talking about? For the most part they use descent from Dawes Roll members as a requirement for tribal membership.

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 18:59
I don't think it counts if you as a Persian have a few distant cousins in Sweden. Someone like Nadia Björlin (half-Swedish, half-Persian, plus she's beautiful; beauty goes a long way) I'm sure could pass such a genetics=citizenship test, but not a fully Iranian with no Swedish ancestry.

Not like the powers that be in the EU today, no. But this could all change seeing as how Europeans are becoming more and more nationalistic for every year.

Their situation is a special case though, and sadly so. They don't have much else aside from genetics, and even then their pedigree is often mixed up with Europeans.

I don't make this assumption based on iranian relatives in Sweden if thats what you mean? I have loads of ethnic swedish relatives in both 23andme and gedmatch. Calculators also pick up substantial northern european scores aswell as the oracles which go hand in hand with the relatives. I'm pretty certain there's swedish ancestry there, to deny it would mean that the whole genome analysis system is flawed as there is just too much consistent patterns for it not be true.

EliasAlucard
2015-03-10, 19:05
I don't make this assumption based on iranian relatives in Sweden if thats what you mean? I have loads of ethnic swedish relatives in both 23andme and gedmatch. Calculators also pick up substantial european scores which go hand in hand with the relatives.It's fully possible you have some distant Swedish relatives of partial Iranian ancestry.

The entire point with genetics as a requirement for citizenship, is that you can prove you have substantial ancestry from said country.


I'm pretty certain there's swedish ancestry thereIn you or in them? ;)

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 19:16
It's fully possible you have some distant Swedish relatives of partial Iranian ancestry.

The entire point with genetics as a requirement for citizenship, is that you can prove you have substantial ancestry from said country.

In you or in them? ;)

Both lol, trust me Im probably the number one guy at questioning whether something is real or not and I need to make sure there is a clear pattern before I make any conclusions in this genetics game, as I Simply don't have the knowledge. These swedish relatives display a clear pattern and maybe we could assume it was shared iranian ancestry if there was maybe 1 or two swedes. But I have around 15-20 people in both 23andme and gedmatch with swedish ancestry aswell as relatives from other neighbouring scandinavian countries (Denmark,norway). So the shared iranian ancestry doesn't really look likely.

EliasAlucard
2015-03-10, 19:29
Okay, but this thread isn't about you and what ancestry you might have ;)

The general rule is at least 25% ancestry from the majority population in a country, and the remaining 75% shouldn't be too foreign either. For example, I have 25% Armenian ancestry, and the remaining 75% of my ancestry is Assyrian. Assyrians and Armenians are genetically very similar. If Armenia made genetics a requirement for citizenship, and the minimum was 1/4 Armenian ancestry, someone like me would in all likelihood pass. But what about someone who's half-Armenian and half-black, or half-Chinese? Unlikely. Because equating citizenship with genetics would also make said country's citizenship requirements, racial. That's the entire point with making genetic tests a factor in citizenship: race. Because normally, if jingoism isn't involved, Poles or French aren't denied citizenship in Germany (and vice versa).

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-10, 19:38
Okay, but this thread isn't about you and what ancestry you might have ;)

The general rule is at least 25% ancestry from the majority population in a country, and the remaining 75% shouldn't be too foreign either. For example, I have 25% Armenian ancestry, and the remaining 75% of my ancestry is Assyrian. Assyrians and Armenians are genetically very similar. If Armenia made genetics a requirement for citizenship, and the minimum was 1/4 Armenian ancestry, someone like me would in all likelihood pass. But what about someone who's half-Armenian and half-black, or half-Chinese? Unlikely. Because equating citizenship with genetics would also make said country's citizenship requirements, racial. That's the entire point with making genetic tests a factor in citizenship: race. Because normally, if jingoism isn't involved, Poles or French aren't denied citizenship in Germany (and vice versa).

Yeah I fully agree. Whether I would qualify to get citizenship for sweden as an example is highly unlikely, even though the ancestry is most likely there if any kind of genetic proof was required to gain citizenship it would probably require a larger amount of it then what i can claim to be considered eligible. I think that it could also work for lower quantities if they have substantial genetic evidence. But whether this will ever happen I don't know.

flapperlife
2015-03-10, 22:12
Flapperlife, how do they determine an applicant belongs to this tribe but not that tribe, and which tribes are you specifically talking about? For the most part they use descent from Dawes Roll members as a requirement for tribal membership.
The genetic testing goes along with and supports the lineage on paper, like the Dawes Roll for example. Basically you make a claim, and the testing along with the document with your family's lineage must prove each other, if that makes sense. It's weird though cause you know there will be some people that have "extra" Native % because they are also Mexican, or Native from another tribe.

Ebersdorf
2015-03-11, 04:19
Flapperlife, how do they determine an applicant belongs to this tribe but not that tribe, and which tribes are you specifically talking about? For the most part they use descent from Dawes Roll members as a requirement for tribal membership.

From what I understand, the science has not progressed that far yet to be able to discern between tribes. There isn't that many samples to compare with. Native people aren't usually too keen on DNA testing on ancient remains for religious reasons. The best one can do is to determine broad regions. I have for the last year or so been trying to unsnarl my daughter-in-law's DNA. She has Navajo, Cherokee, Arapaho, Lakota Sioux, Pawnee, Ute and Jicarilla Apache ancestry. I can pretty much tell which of her matches are the Navajo ones and I'm beginning to be able by triangulating some of her other matches to determine some of her Apache ancestors. She descends from Chief Ouray of the Utes but his father was Jicarilla Apache and my daughter-in-law has lots of matches with people from Jicarilla country. I've also been able to determine some of her Cherokee ancestry with another DNA match with a good paper trail.

Commando is right in that for a lot of tribes, one must have a proven ancestor on the Dawes Rolls. Many folks on Tribal rolls have all sorts of DNA but most of the time it doesn't matter. With this issue, the science is way out ahead of the law.

But not universally. I recently met a friend of my son's who is an enrolled member of a tribe in Southern Oregon. When he applied for membership in this tribe, he was required to take a DNA test. I'd like to know what company they use. He doesn't look the slightest bit Native, but since he had over 25% Native American DNA and a proven paper-trail back to a grandparent who was full blooded, he was in like Flynn.

filrabat
2015-03-11, 04:48
Is there any nation in the world that accepts genetics as proof of descent to claim citizenship ? just a curious case as I have read it here and there but can't put my finger on whether it really exists yet or not. And do you think it should become something we can do? would you do it and for what country?

The closest thing I've heard to is is that Germany and Japan still use blood descent to determine citizenship, but that was decades ago. I don't know what's the case today.

Should they do so? In a word, "No". It makes no sense to reject a lifelong resident of nation "N" on the basis of genetic/descent alone. If their language, world-view, extent of first-hand cultural familiarity...combined, are that of nation N, then they should be considered an N'ian.

Simi
2015-03-11, 13:19
When do you predict that'll happen?


Never going to happen so long the EU exists. Any kind of semi-Nazi state will be economically marginalized to the point of failure.

I obviously wrote that tounge-in-cheek, but I can imagine something like that emerging within a century if Europe suffers a severe economic breakdown, serious political crisis or war. Ethnicity will become more relevant in European society regardless because of the demographic trends.

A militant Nazi movement will also very probably be subject to manipulation by the great powers if it yields any success, much like the radical Islamic groups in the Middle East are tools of Israel, the US, Saudi Arabia etc, Chechen militants in Russia are sometimes under FSB control, and the list goes on.

ancestryfan1994
2015-03-11, 15:25
The closest thing I've heard to is is that Germany and Japan still use blood descent to determine citizenship, but that was decades ago. I don't know what's the case today.

Should they do so? In a word, "No". It makes no sense to reject a lifelong resident of nation "N" on the basis of genetic/descent alone. If their language, world-view, extent of first-hand cultural familiarity...combined, are that of nation N, then they should be considered an N'ian.

I didn't know japan did this, is it still in use? do you have any sources for this also? its a shame I can't say for sure whether I have Japanese ancestry otherwise maybe I would put my name in the hat for this one lol. On a serious note, I personally don't know if genetic proof to get citizenship will ever happen, but I guess if the person has substantial genetic evidence to support the cause it wouldn't exactly be a crime to be granted citizenship. After all genetics does not lie and if you can provide genomic evidence from all corners and have it verified by experts, it wouldn't be so bad.