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View Full Version : Revisiting Black in Latin American and new documentaries about Afro-Latinos



Game Theory
2015-03-19, 14:54
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/afrolatinos-the-untaught-story--3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLtk_v1jl_M

I recall a long time ago here when someone posted topic about that documentary from Henry Louis gates called Black in Latin America. I recall some Latinos here getting upset and basically labelling Gates as an Afro-nazi, Afrocentrist and as one who was attacking certain Latinos as self haters. I thought those characterisations of Gates were bogus then and I still feel thez were bogus things to say about Gates. Well another documentary has come out, well is out already called "Afrolatinos: The Untaught Story." One of the creators of the documentary describes herself as Afro-Dominican, the other as Afro-Colombian. These two people went out and did research and visited various countries and the information they found only confirms a lot of what gates found in his documentary which means that all this talk about people lying and being Afrocentrists with an agenda is false if they're getting the information directly from the people there is something to it. Many blacks here, labelled as "Afrocentrists" said a lot of the same things and got attacked well more the truth from the mouths of the people is getting out, so those oversensitive people in here(mostly SOME of the Dominican posters) are going to have to face up to the fact that there is a problem when it comes to things black and African in some Latin American countries.

saru21
2015-03-19, 15:23
Afro-centrist, regardless of their ethnic origins, will present things from an Afro-centric perspective for their own biases and agendas. Nothing new, rinse and repeat as usual.

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I'm African. There, I said it. Now go do your hand stands and piss off.

Radiohead
2015-03-19, 15:25
Here we go again.

saru21
2015-03-19, 15:31
...and what the hell is "afro-Dominican" even supposed to mean? As if it's some sort of deviant of Dominican culture. It's as redundant as saying round circle.

Game Theory
2015-03-20, 05:32
...and what the hell is "afro-Dominican" even supposed to mean? As if it's some sort of deviant of Dominican culture. It's as redundant as saying round circle.

Dude pump your damn brakes with all that foolishness, I never said anybody had to identify as "African", black Americans don't even identify as "African" so what are you talking about? When latinos talk about their Spaniard and Native American ancestry I never see you say they are Indio-centrist or Soanish-centrists, but talk about their African ancestry and influence on the culture and all of the sudden a person is an evil "Afrocentrists, its as if talking about and raising awareness about the Afro side offends you for some odd reason." man come on dude, stop, stop trying to reduce my argument to that petty stuff, if that woman feels a need to identify herself as "Afro Dominican" its for a reason. Those two documentaries are raising awareness to a much broader discussion about not only identity but racism that these people face in Latin America, you can't keep labelling every damn person an "afrocentrist" because they are expressing things that feel are a problem so to me calling someone an Afrocentrist in this is an ad-hominem. They actually went out and travelled to various countries and got the stories of those people firsthand themselves and those people are NOT militant people. I guess by your logic people like Martin Luther King was an evil Afrocentrist for advocating and raising awareness about the plight numerous Black Americans faced back then and still face today from the dominant culture or race in a country and thats simply not true.

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Afro-centrist, regardless of their ethnic origins, will present things from an Afro-centric perspective for their own biases and agendas. Nothing new, rinse and repeat as usual.

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I'm African. There, I said it. Now go do your hand stands and piss off.

You're being defensive as well as being a fool, in no place in teh documentary are they saying that all people with Afro blood must identify as fully African, see stop trying to reduce my argument to that foolishness, what they say in the documentary is the lacki of embracing and telling the story of the African side, thats why teh documentary is called the UNTOLD STORY because that part is often left out or very under-emphasised. Indeed in the documentary some people didn't even know they were "black" until they travelled to other countries and it was only then that learned a different story about their origins that wasn't being told in the countries they come from. They all can't be lying , so cut the BS.

Celph Titled
2015-03-21, 23:49
i dont think the problem is talking about the black influence in Latin America culture, the problem comes more when blacks try to act as if all Latinos have culture and music thanks to black people, which is ridiculous, ive heard many times from them say that Latino music is just African music :whoco: and the truth is, no its NOT, the influence in SOME Latino music is there but like i said, the problem is more when they try to claim certain things as solely black

now some denying their black heritage, yeah those exist but i believe they are a minority, mestizos do not count since they do not have enough black (1-5%), but even African Americans have gotten upset that Mexicans do not recognize their African ancestry, stuff like that really bothers me

Game Theory
2015-03-22, 09:08
i dont think the problem is talking about the black influence in Latin America culture, the problem comes more when blacks try to act as if all Latinos have culture and music thanks to black people, which is ridiculous, ive heard many times from them say that Latino music is just African music :whoco: and the truth is, no its NOT, the influence in SOME Latino music is there but like i said, the problem is more when they try to claim certain things as solely black

I'm not addressing claims that I didn't make nor any the claims that are made in the videos. In some places the African influence is very pronounced, but no one stated those claims, neitehr I nor anyone in the videos I talked about. Man please learn to address claims that I or teh video is making instead of addressing strawmen arguments to dismiss the point I'm making in this topic. Nobody has said that Latin American culture and music is solely black, what is being said is that the black ancestry and cultural influence is being downplayed at the expense of the Indio and Spaniard influences being played up and there is plenty of truth to that depending on location. The people in that video, Afro-Latinos: The Untold Story, are not Aframs, but are Latinos of African descent who travelled to many different countries and talked to people, so please before you come to me with all those ridiculous strawmen about what others have said look at what I and the video is saying.


now some denying their black heritage, yeah those exist but i believe they are a minority, mestizos do not count since they do not have enough black (1-5%), but even African Americans have gotten upset that Mexicans do not recognize their African ancestry, stuff like that really bothers me

Please, NO Aframs and hardly any Aframs are upset with Mexicans about some measley 1-5% African ancestry, you have to be kidding me. I now live back in the uS with my wife and kids and I hear hardly any Aframs even talking about it, man please......Now there are some Mexicans of African descent living in Mexico who face discrimination and racism and are basically an invisible people and so people may address that, but NO ONE is trying to make Mexicans black or getting upset over a negligibe amount of African ancestry. Like I said, address what I said in my post or in the links, videos I posted, not some internet garbage you may have saw by some fringe people that don't represent teh majority or even a significant amount of Aframs.

TheMask
2015-03-22, 20:07
a lot of non black Latinos say America is more racist but i don't think thats true because look at how successful blacks are in America compared to black Latinos. even during Jim crow blacks were at lease in government, in some L.A nations you can't get a job or apartment because your black

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJQBMLU_kpQ

http://www.colombiareports.co/wp-content/uploads/no_blacks.jpg
http://colombiareports.co/racism-rife-in-bogota/

Celph Titled
2015-03-23, 00:38
I'm not addressing claims that I didn't make nor any the claims that are made in the videos. In some places the African influence is very pronounced, but no one stated those claims, neitehr I nor anyone in the videos I talked about. Man please learn to address claims that I or teh video is making instead of addressing strawmen arguments to dismiss the point I'm making in this topic. Nobody has said that Latin American culture and music is solely black, what is being said is that the black ancestry and cultural influence is being downplayed at the expense of the Indio and Spaniard influences being played up and there is plenty of truth to that depending on location. The people in that video, Afro-Latinos: The Untold Story, are not Aframs, but are Latinos of African descent who travelled to many different countries and talked to people, so please before you come to me with all those ridiculous strawmen about what others have said look at what I and the video is saying.

again, you are talking about Latinos as if the majority of the Latino population is mulatto with heavy negroid influence and culturally, the truth is that no its NOT, and it will never ever be that way. Latin America will always be a majority mestizo culturally and also will always be a mestizo region genetically, so when Latinos talk about the Spaniards and Native American influence, they have every right to do that, its part of Latin America's history

now if you are talking about countries like Cuba or Dominican Republic downplaying black culture and influences then, that is a different thing, i honestly never heard of Cubans play up the Native American culture, in fact many of them actually think they have no Native American

with Dominicans, i have no idea because i dont live among them

people do not seem to understand how insignificant the African influence is in the majority of the Latin American population, yeah most music would be where the influence can be clearly seen, some of the accents also have it (even though some Latinos here dont like the idea of their accents being black influence), food wise majority of that influence is in the Caribbean


for example, i have been trying to find the African influences in Mexican culture, there has been documentaries in Mexico that talk about how Africans played an important role in Mexico's independence, they also talked about their way of talking, their words, some of the words that came from those Africans are chamba and chamuco, which are still used in Mexico, also the way of talking like the accents found in Veracruz and Guerrero, the dropping of the S and R's, that has also been coined to African influence which can also be found in black populations in Africa

sometimes its not that Latinos downplay African influence, sometimes its hard to find that influence, obviously in countries like Puerto Rico, Cuba, Brazil and Dominican Republic, its much easier for them, but with the rest of the Latin American population, it becomes hard





Please, NO Aframs and hardly any Aframs are upset with Mexicans about some measley 1-5% African ancestry, you have to be kidding me. I now live back in the uS with my wife and kids and I hear hardly any Aframs even talking about it, man please......

i have argued with them on youtube and on Latino facebook pages before, they love talking about how Mexicans never recognize their black ancestry and are trying to hide their black blood by only embracing their Spaniard and Native American ancestry

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a lot of non black Latinos say America is more racist but i don't think thats true because look at how successful blacks are in America compared to black Latinos. even during Jim crow blacks were at lease in government, in some L.A nations you can't get a job or apartment because your black

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJQBMLU_kpQ

http://www.colombiareports.co/wp-content/uploads/no_blacks.jpg
http://colombiareports.co/racism-rife-in-bogota/

i think Colombians can be very racist towards their black population and i think its sad, theres a youtube channel about Colombians living in Mexico, there was an Afro-Colombiana who talked about being treated much better in Mexico than in Colombia but that Mexico's only problem was that the blacks arent recognized in their census, apart from being a very macho culture

saru21
2015-03-23, 09:23
Dude pump your damn brakes with all that foolishness, I never said anybody had to identify as "African", black Americans don't even identify as "African" so what are you talking about? When I used the term "African", I was referring to your obsession with demanding Afro-descendants to identify with your pan-black ideology that correlates with colonial America's one drop rule.



When latinos talk about their Spaniard and Native American ancestry I never see you say they are Indio-centrist or Soanish-centrists, but talk about their African ancestry and influence on the culture and all of the sudden a person is an evil "Afrocentrists By that logic I would be an "evil Afro-centric" myself. I openly discuss about Blackness in the Latino community, and about Blackness in my particular ethnic group. The reason why I get at you is over your obsession on portraying us as a bunch of self-hating mulatto Nazis all because we don't follow your own cultural/personal perspective on identity. It only shows the delusional levels of narcissism and ignorance on your part when you get like this over something as trivial and subjective as the interpretation of race.



If that woman feels a need to identify herself as "Afro Dominican" its for a reason.
"Afro Dominican" is as a redundant term to me as "Spanish Dominican" would be. I find it redundant and unnecessary because the Afro-aspect of us is clearly evident in our culture, our people, our history, and our identity as a people of Spanish/Afro/Taino descent. Regardless of what you think (which holds little relevance as you've admitted in the past to never being in DR nor being exposed to Dominicans in the US), Blackness is not that big a big deal in my community. Yes, some of us hold the Spanish portion of our culture and identity as the primary aspect that defines us, but that should be expected from a Spanish post-colonial society, especially given the turbulent history of invasions and war with our neighbors to the West.



I guess by your logic people like Martin Luther King was an evil Afrocentrist for advocating and raising awareness about the plight numerous Black Americans faced back then and still face today from the dominant culture or race in a country and thats simply not true.

http://facesoflions.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Hay.jpg

Martin Luther King fought for shit that mattered. What you're doing on the other hand is merely a facade to mask your ethnocentric intentions.

Game Theory
2015-03-24, 18:35
When I used the term "African", I was referring to your obsession with demanding Afro-descendants to identify with your pan-black ideology that correlates with colonial America's one drop rule.

When did I say any such thing in my post? Again son, you're chewing on straws, I said both documentaries was talking about a lack of acknowldegment of the Black/African element, the down playing of it, and its role in the denial of racism in Latin America, I didn't say a damn thing about wanting people to identify as African, and the damn one drop rule is not even pan-black in origin, that shows just how damn stupid and ignorant you are. Our identity is based on how we were all treatwed and how we all stuck together to battle oppression, not on the ODR, which was for "blacks" who passed as white, ignoramus. Stop the senistive, defensive talk and strawmen and respond to what I am saying.


By that logic I would be an "evil Afro-centric" myself. I openly discuss about Blackness in the Latino community, and about Blackness in my particular ethnic group. The reason why I get at you is over your obsession on portraying us as a bunch of self-hating mulatto Nazis all because we don't follow your own cultural/personal perspective on identity. It only shows the delusional levels of narcissism and ignorance on your part when you get like this over something as trivial and subjective as the interpretation of race.

No, depending on how one discusses blackness you may/may not be a so called "evil Afrocentrist" so stop teh deflections and excuses. I posted information about TWO videos and documentaries NOT done by myself, but by others, one by Skip Gates the other by an Dominican and Colombian, it was THEIR conclusion based on them travelling and talking to people in those countries that there is a lack of embracing the Afro part of the ancestry and culture, this had nothing to do with me. Man up and respond to what was said in the documentaries, and stop hiding behind paranoid charges of extreme Afrocentrism and attacks no one is making on you.



"Afro Dominican" is as a redundant term to me as "Spanish Dominican" would be. I find it redundant and unnecessary because the Afro-aspect of us is clearly evident in our culture, our people, our history, and our identity as a people of Spanish/Afro/Taino descent. Regardless of what you think (which holds little relevance as you've admitted in the past to never being in DR nor being exposed to Dominicans in the US), Blackness is not that big a big deal in my community. Yes, some of us hold the Spanish portion of our culture and identity as the primary aspect that defines us, but that should be expected from a Spanish post-colonial society, especially given the turbulent history of invasions and war with our neighbors to the West.

Well there is a reason she said Afro-Dominican, by any chance you would think that because she is Dominican that perhaps she witnessed and has saw some of he denial of Afro ancestry herself? And to me its funny Dominicans, a heavily Afro-admixed country would hold the Spaniards in higher regard than the African and Taino when they were the oppressors and for the fact that you be hard-pressed to find any 'pure' Spaniards in DR today. I've read some of the works Torres-Salliant and the whole Haiti thing is blown out of proportion, black and mulatto mixed population would have no real reason to hate Haitians since they tried to keep away slavery and the Spaniards from off the island, but the white and near white elite and criollos would have plenty of reason to fear the Haitians so all thatr anti-Haitian stuff is a product of THEM brainwashing the masses with Negrophobia via the Haitians.








Martin Luther King fought for shit that mattered. What you're doing on the other hand is merely a facade to mask your ethnocentric intentions.

What teh hell ever dude, you can't answer the questions nor respond to anything I said.

saru21
2015-03-24, 22:56
the damn one drop rule is not even pan-black in origin, that shows just how damn stupid and ignorant you are.
I clearly stated it's origins is from the colonial US era. People can have pan-black ideologies for different reasons, and the cultural impact of the ODR is one of those potential reasons.


Our identity is based on how we were all treated and how we all stuck together to battle oppression, not on the ODR, which was for "blacks" who passed as white, ignoramus.

...and the ODR was a form of that opression, given that through it mixed race afro-descendants were denied the regular treatment of Whites, which thus means you're admitting it's impact on Afram identity.



to me its funny Dominicans, a heavily Afro-admixed country would hold the Spaniards in higher regard than the African and Taino when they were the oppressors
More than anything, it was the Haitians who were more of the oppressors, Santo Domingo was pretty abandoned by spain in favor for the gold/mining industry in south America. Because of that santo domingo quickly became a poor colony, slaves become much of an expensive and unnecessary asset for the colony's cadle economy, which lead to the quick assimilation of the slave and colonist population with minimal spanish intervention. Spain was pretty much in the background of Dominican history compared to Haiti. Your argument is a bit pointless given that DR is also a heavily spanish-mixed society, but your personal biases prevent you from seeing this.



and for the fact that you be hard-pressed to find any 'pure' Spaniards in DR today.
The same can be said for 'pure' African Dominicans, minus a few communities which most have a history of being ex-bateys with it's locals descending from west Indians and Haitians workers. These communities developed much later in dominican history and are exceptions, so of course they'd have no impact on general dominican identity.



I've read some of the works Torres-Salliant and the whole Haiti thing is blown out of proportion

How about reading the historical works from Dominicans from that time instead? I'm sure mass killings of Dominican civilians by Haitian troops isn't that big of a deal, right?

El Andullero
2015-03-24, 23:44
I've read some of the works Torres-Salliant and the whole Haiti thing is blown out of proportion, black and mulatto mixed population would have no real reason to hate Haitians since they tried to keep away slavery and the Spaniards from off the island.

It isn't out of proportion considering the fact that the Haitians, for all their anti-colonialist boasting (and the clapping they occasionally receive from the likes of you) actually bowed down and accepted to pay the "reparations" the French chose to impose on them in order to have their independence being recognized. Taking into account that they had all but destroyed their economic means during their war of independence (and squandered the little wealth the despot Christophe amassed when the north was separate from the rest of the country) the road the Haitians chose to pay their debt was to have the easterners, regardless of race, carry the brunt of the payments. You can imagine how that was taken in a country that was on a subsistence level itself at the time.

Given the way the two countries began to diverge economically and socially after the separation, I'd say our forefathers made the right call by separating themselves from the retarded regime at Port-Au-Prince. The tragic irony in all this being that said regime was of a mulatto predominance at the time at the higher levels.

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I clearly stated it's origins is from the colonial US era. People can have pan-black ideologies for different reasons, and the cultural impact of the ODR is one of those potential reasons.


The one drop rule is more of an early republic invention (circa 1830's), and a northern (Yankee) one at that.

Quimbara
2015-04-11, 05:57
i dont think the problem is talking about the black influence in Latin America culture, the problem comes more when blacks try to act as if all Latinos have culture and music thanks to black people, which is ridiculous, ive heard many times from them say that Latino music is just African music :whoco: and the truth is, no its NOT, the influence in SOME Latino music is there but like i said, the problem is more when they try to claim certain things as solely black

now some denying their black heritage, yeah those exist but i believe they are a minority, mestizos do not count since they do not have enough black (1-5%), but even African Americans have gotten upset that Mexicans do not recognize their African ancestry, stuff like that really bothers me

Well that has some truth...almost all the major known Latin American music and dance is African influenced.

But I've never heard anyone say that Latinos have music and culture thanks to black people.

Maybe their not implying that the music is African. Perhaps it could be that they feel it just doesn't often cross the minds of many people that the music and dance that Latin Americans enjoy are African influenced cultural expressions.

Part of the problem is that people who say dumb shit or those incapable of stating things correctly are given way too much attention than they should.