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Holden Caulfield
2010-04-26, 17:20
For 2,000 years Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?

Here are some articles which give some insight into Jesus or Yeshu ha-Notzri, aka the "false messiah".

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law—thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

# Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]
# He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
# He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
# 4) He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]


http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html


1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

Zupan
2010-04-26, 17:36
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).¨¨

God himself (Jesus) helped the jews. Who helps the juice? America? Who lives in the states? Christians living by the teachings of Jesus. Idiot he fulfilled it well. They are back and the temple will be built in time. Dumb fuck.

Wojewoda
2010-04-26, 18:04
Funny people these Lubavitcher. But very ambitious and direct. I like it (until of course they come in my way, then God have mercy on them ;)):


The Final War for Jerusalem

Why Permanent Israeli Victory Is Now Within Reach

(...)

Judaism has always been a conquering religion, not for the purpose of converting gentiles to become Jews, but rather with the mission of returning the world to the universal covenant between G-d and Noah. For halachic reasons too numerous and detailed to list here, gentiles today who follow Christianity, Islam, or other religions are not, for the most part, "righteous gentiles" who inherit the World to Come. That status belongs only to those gentiles who carefully observe the Seven Laws of Noah, including following the halachic authority of the oral Torah and the rabbis.

(For those who find the concept confusing, we hasten to point out that this is not part of a conversion to Judaism, nor even a step in the process. The Children of Noah have their own, independent role to play in assisting the Jewish people and refining the world. Those individuals who wish to convert may do so, but there is no such requirement. In the Messianic era, these righteous gentiles will worship in the Jerusalem Temple and celebrate certain Torah holidays, but will maintain a separate court system and not intermarry with Jews. Today, such Noachides also assist in bringing non-observant Jews back to Torah, among other functions.)

During the time of the first Temple, the dream of eventually refining and transforming the gentiles was reflected in the presence of ten menorahs in the Temple sanctuary—for a total of seventy lights—representing the elevation of the seventy gentile nations. But when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews had to influence the gentiles in a more quiet, gradual manner. Although causing the gentiles to observe the Seven Noachide Laws is itself one of the 613 mitzvos of the Torah, the exile at times sank to such depths of harshness and oppression that Jews simply could not fulfill this mitzvah for fear of death. In such times, Judaism was forced to adapt itself to mere survival; conquest was simply out of the question.

That situation has completely reversed itself today. The very fact that Amalek can stir up such chaos in the world is proof that gentile society no longer presents true opposition to Jewish teachings. One now sees anti-Semitism only where Amalek is provoking trouble, which is precisely where gentiles are the most desperate for guidance. As Christianity spirals downward into strife and theological confusion, it becomes a vacuum unable to defend itself against either the lies of Amalek or the truth of Torah. Amalek can exploit the worldwide collapse of Christianity only by default—that is, only when the Jewish people do not seize the unprecedented opportunity.

And as the Lubavitcher Rebbe has explained, by transforming the gentiles we can quickly create a vast army of supporters who will help us reveal Moshiach and bring all Jews back to the Torah. Specifically, the Rebbe has emphasized that the "peace process" in Israel will be defeated only through our influence on the gentiles—especially through the campaign to teach the Noachide Laws (see Sichos in English, vol. 16, [19 Kislev 5743]).

Our most pressing task, to put it simply, is to launch an international Noachide revolution without delay. The process has already begun, with dozens of tiny Noachide communities having appeared throughout the United States, generally composed of former Christians who have abandoned that religion. The task of organizing the revolution can be divided into two broad stages:

I) We must first create a new Noachide society as an international network of communities and organizations functioning inside, but separately from, the surrounding society (based on halachic requirements and directives, Noachide institutions function quite differently from their Christian and secular counterparts).

This starts with an aggressive outreach program, by Jews and Noachides alike, to teach gentiles about their responsibilities according to Torah.

Simultaneously, we must organize functioning programs and institutions that are prepared to absorb these vast numbers of ex-Christians and immediately involve them in efforts to bring Moshiach. The Noachide communities require schools for their children, modeled after the Jewish yeshiva programs; Torah study groups geared for their specific needs; coordinated celebrations of appropriate Torah holidays; family services for marriage, support for the elderly, and burial; courts of justice, led by rabbinically trained righteous judges, which will function similarly to Jewish batei dinim; and tzedaka programs to assist the needy, to build new Noachide schools, and to support Jewish settlements in Israel and synagogues throughout the diaspora.

2) In the second stage, the growing Noachide movement will seize political power—using only peaceful, lawful means—in the capitals of the Western nations. This, of course, will not take place until the Noachide society has grown to some threshold size. We do not know how large this needs to be nor which nations will join the revolution first, although the United States, as a fairly religious, conservative nation, certainly tops the list of prospects.


http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm

Ubirajara
2010-04-26, 18:38
Chabad-Lubavitch has been the most politically active in Noahide matters, believing that there is spiritual value to non-Jews by even just acknowledging the seven laws. In 1991 they had a reference to these laws enshrined in a congressional proclamation: Presidential Proclamation 5956,[12] then-President George H. W. Bush, recalling Joint House Resolution 173, and recalling that the ethical and moral principles of all civilizations come in part from the Seven Noachide Laws, proclaimed March 26, 1991 as "Education Day, U.S.A." Subsequently, Public Law 102-14, formally designated the Lubavitcher Rebbe's birthday as "Education Day, U.S.A.", with Congress recalling that "without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos", and that "society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide


Ethical values are the foundation for civilized society. A society that fails to recognize or adhere to them cannot endure.

The principles of moral and ethical conduct that have formed the basis for all civilizations come to us, in part, from the centuries-old Seven Noahide Laws. The Noahide Laws are actually seven commandments given to man by God, as recorded in the Old Testament. These commandments include prohibitions against murder, robbery, adultery, blasphemy, and greed, as well as the positive order to establish courts of justice. Through the leadership of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson and the worldwide Lubavitch movement, the Noahide Law -- and standards of conduct duly derived from them -- have been promulgated around the globe. It is fitting that we honor Rabbi Schneerson and acknowledge his important contributions to society. Our great Nation takes just pride in its dedication to the principles of justice, equality, and truth. Americans also understand that we have a responsibility to inspire the same dedication in future generations. We owe a tremendous debt to Rabbi Schneerson and to all those who promote education that embraces moral and ethical values and emphasizes their importance. In recognition of Rabbi Schneerson's vital efforts, and in celebration of his 87th birthday, the Congress, by House Joint Resolution 173, has designated April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as "Education Day, U.S.A." and has authorized and requested the President to issue an appropriate proclamation in observance of these days. Now, Therefore, I, George Bush, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as Education Day, U.S.A. I invite Governors from every State and Territory, community leaders, teachers, and all Americans to observe these days through appropriate events and activities. In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this fourteenth day of April, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirteenth. GEORGE BUSH
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=23514
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c102:H.J.RES.104.ENR:

Wojewoda
2010-04-26, 19:08
We owe a tremendous debt to Rabbi Schneerson and to all those who promote education that embraces moral and ethical values and emphasizes their importance. In recognition of Rabbi Schneerson's vital efforts, and in celebration of his 87th birthday, the Congress, by House Joint Resolution 173, has designated April 16, 1989, and April 6, 1990, as "Education Day, U.S.A." and has authorized and requested the President to issue an appropriate proclamation in observance of these days

I often forget how crazy the world can be. :whoco:

elguca
2010-07-01, 17:42
My God's name is not Yeshu, His Name is Y'SHUA ("Salvation"). :)

beyoku
2010-07-01, 17:57
Y'SHUA = God?

Y'SHUA = YHWH :confused:

Semitic Duwa
2010-07-01, 18:06
Ironically, the rabbinic stance on Moshia7 fits Yeshu3a perfectly.

Not b'TaNaKH but in the Talmud.

Humanist
2010-07-01, 21:13
And for us, Assyrian folks: "The prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ." (http://www.v-a.com/bible/aramaic-jesus.html)

Zupan
2010-07-01, 21:15
I'd like to learn aramaic :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAEIrp4MFBE

Humanist
2010-07-01, 21:29
I'd like to learn aramaic :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAEIrp4MFBE

:) This is near my dialect: Life in Darband (http://nena.ames.cam.ac.uk/uploads/Life_in_Darband-c.mp3)

I believe it is Birko's dialect as well. At least that of his father.

For comparison, listen to this Jewish man from Urmia, Iran, speaking his North Eastern Neo-Aramaic dialect: The princess who refused to talk (http://nena.ames.cam.ac.uk/uploads/The%20princess.mp3)

Many state that the Christian and Jewish varieties are mutually unintelligible. At least going by the Urmia Jewish dialect, I found it surprisingly intelligible.

---------- Post added 2010-07-01 at 16:37 ----------


I'd like to learn aramaic :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAEIrp4MFBE

Yes, that is very beautiful. One of my favorites on Youtube. :) "[Zupan] Saying Lord's Prayer in Assyrian [Neo-Aramaic]" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gPMmp3TBjg) ;)

Zupan
2010-07-01, 21:41
Is that your kiddo? :)

Yeeah I thought it sounded more 'peaceful' when the yahoudi spoke. The dialect sounded smoother to me :p

Humanist
2010-07-01, 21:57
Is that your kiddo? :)

Yeeah I thought it sounded more 'peaceful' when the yahoudi spoke. The dialect sounded smoother to me :p

The person --Nenos, correct me if you hear otherwise-- speaking the Darband dialect sounded as though she had learned to speak in an Iraqi-Assyrian household, whether living in the diaspora or Iraq itself. I suppose they list the dialects by the origins of one's ancestors. Those that survived, a century ago, the Armenian/Assyrian/Pontic Greek Genocide, had to flee their homes in the Urmia and Hakkari regions of Iran and Turkey respectively, for Iraq, or, to a lesser extent, the Russian (Soviet) nations.

Zupan
2010-07-01, 22:00
Sad tht they killed off civilians..

You should hve revolted and killed the turks or muslims in pre-emptive strikes. Hopefully your situation will get better :)

Yautja_BR
2010-07-01, 22:16
I'm not a Christian (mainly because I used to be.. and religion took me away from God)..

This dispute between Jews and Christians over Jesus being just a prophet or God.. makes me sick..

Jesus was far ahead his time, while the Jews were believing in nonsense stuffs like Leviticus..and etc..

For what I am concerned, can both fanatical jews and christians burn in HELL (a Jewish concept).. with their primitive beliefs mainly borrowed from Sumerians and Egyptians..

PS: According to holy Qabalah, God = YHVH , Jesus name is quite similar, except for "shin" letter.

PS2: I'am not a Satanist and not atheistic.. I believe in Jesus and God but I despise what people do in Their names.

Zupan
2010-07-01, 22:24
Heheh :p

Hell as modern construct comes from Dante Aghilieri :p

He wanted to portray damnation etc..

Anyway I just see the fanatics as a obstcle.

Fanatic catholics > Fanatic jews/muyzzies.

I mean orthodoxism isn't the best but hey they accept more..

birko19
2010-07-01, 22:38
The person --Nenos, correct me if you hear otherwise-- speaking the Darband dialect sounded as though she had learned to speak in an Iraqi-Assyrian household, whether living in the diaspora or Iraq itself. I suppose they list the dialects by the origins of one's ancestors. Those that survived, a century ago, the Armenian/Assyrian/Pontic Greek Genocide, had to flee their homes in the Urmia and Hakkari regions of Iran and Turkey respectively, for Iraq, or, to a lesser extent, the Russian (Soviet) nations.

Yes she sounded like an Iraqi-Assyrian but obviously speaking the dialect of her region, I would assume they probably spoke the same back in the home village in Iran but without some Arabic words that she used.

Btw, here's a Jewish dialect from Zakho in north Iraq, you should be able to understand it:

http://semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/mutzafi/betanurexiv9.mp3

As far as the topic goes, the Hebrew Bible borrowed a lot from Mesopotamian religions too, the stories of Noah and Moses were both Mesopotamian tales.

Humanist
2010-07-01, 22:40
Just for you Zupan, yours truly (http://www.box.net/shared/uu77f0vy4a), with the first few lines of, "The princess who refused to talk." :)

Zupan
2010-07-01, 22:43
Just for you Zupan, yours truly (http://www.box.net/shared/uu77f0vy4a), with the first few lines of, "The princess who refused to talk." :)

It sounded a bit like the jewish but with a lighter voice and slight accentuation (american) :p :D

Anyway it doesn't sound like other semitic languages it seems more mellow

Humanist
2010-07-01, 22:54
It sounded a bit like the jewish but with a lighter voice and slight accentuation (american) :p :D

Anyway it doesn't sound like other semitic languages it seems more mellow

Hey, hey. That Jewish fella had a Persian accent, buddy. lol!

Zupan
2010-07-01, 22:57
Hey, hey. That Jewish fella had a Persian accent, buddy. lol!

Haha I meant intonation :p

To me the woman seemed not to pronounce it the same way as the yahoudi but you did :D It's just vibe :p

I'm no expert in Aramaic ^^ But i'd like to learn it :)

Ekarfi
2010-07-01, 22:59
Yehoshua's language was Aramaic too , because the Arameanization of Near-East also touched Israelites .

Zupan
2010-07-01, 23:01
Yeah the Lord spoke Aramaic but he probably spoke Hebrew, greek and latin too ^^

Humanist
2010-07-01, 23:08
Yes she sounded like an Iraqi-Assyrian but obviously speaking the dialect of her region, I would assume they probably spoke the same back in the home village in Iran but without some Arabic words that she used.

Btw, here's a Jewish dialect from Zakho in north Iraq, you should be able to understand it:

http://semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/mutzafi/betanurexiv9.mp3

As far as the topic goes, the Hebrew Bible borrowed a lot from Mesopotamian religions too, the stories of Noah and Moses were both Mesopotamian tales.

Thanks, my man.

Ekarfi
2010-07-01, 23:15
Yeah the Lord spoke Aramaic but he probably spoke Hebrew, greek and latin too ^^ Probably he spoke Hebrew and Latin , two important languages at his time and in his region ; )

elguca
2010-07-02, 23:48
Probably Jesus spoke Greek and Aramaic to his disciples. Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) was common among Jews in first century AD.