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View Full Version : The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017)



Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 12:34
Abstract:

Farming was first introduced to southeastern Europe in the mid-7th millennium BCE - brought by migrants from Anatolia who settled in the region before spreading throughout Europe. However, the dynamics of the interaction between the first farmers and the indigenous hunter-gatherers remain poorly understood because of the near absence of ancient DNA from the region. We report new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 204 individuals-65 Paleolithic and Mesolithic, 93 Neolithic, and 46 Copper, Bronze and Iron Age-who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between about 12,000 and 500 BCE. We document that the hunter-gatherer populations of southeastern Europe, the Baltic, and the North Pontic Steppe were distinctive from those of western Europe, with a West-East cline of ancestry. We show that the people who brought farming to Europe were not part of a single population, as early farmers from southern Greece are not descended from the Neolithic population of northwestern Anatolia that was ancestral to all other European farmers. The ancestors of the first farmers of northern and western Europe passed through southeastern Europe with limited admixture with local hunter-gatherers, but we show that some groups that remained in the region mixed extensively with local hunter-gatherers, with relatively sex-balanced admixture compared to the male-biased hunter-gatherer admixture that we show prevailed later in the North and West. After the spread of farming, southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between East and West, with intermittent steppe ancestry, including in individuals from the Varna I cemetery and associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian archaeological complex, up to 2,000 years before the Steppe migration that replaced much of northern Europe's population.

Soon in the cinema near you (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616).

Simi
2017-05-10, 12:49
So the Balkan hypothesis of the spread of Proto-Anatolian just gained a lot of ground.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 13:08
So the Balkan hypothesis of the spread of Proto-Anatolian just gained a lot of ground.

Or perhaps it didn't, I sure hope there's data from Ezero in there! What I do know is that linguistically, it still makes more sense than a migration from the Steppe to Anatolia through the Caucasus.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, to me, this is far more interesting than the BB behemoth. It could potentially have some serious implications for R1b's origins, if there's data from Vucedol for example. Fingers crossed for Mycenaean and Iron Age genomes from Greece.

Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 15:19
The paper is here (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616).

Alexander
2017-05-10, 15:35
Holy shit, R1b in the Balkans - and that old?


9221-8548 calBCE (9480±110* BP, AA-57771) Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U5b2c R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)


I1819 (8825-8561 calBCE (9420±50 BP, Poz-81128), Ukraine_Mesolithic, Vasil'evka) - R1a

You guys reading this shit? :eek:

Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 15:54
Samples from this paper:

http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE1p_aaqnsee.png
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE2a_aaqnapp.png
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE3a_aaqnapw.png
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE4p_aaqnsas.png
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE5p_aaqnsqh.png
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE6p_aaqnsqn.png
http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/mapapng_aaqnqen.png
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut1png_aaqnqwq.png
http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/aut2png_aaqnqsh.png
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut3png_aaqnqsx.png
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut4png_aaqnqsn.png
http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaapng_aaqnqse.png
http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaa2pn_aaqnqqw.png
http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaa3pn_aaqepph.png
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaa4pn_aaqeppe.png

Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 16:02
Mesolithic:

R in France

apart of I2 quite a lot of R1b1a in Iron Gates (Serbia)

R1a, R1b1a2 and I2a1 in Vasilevka (Ukraine) - all 3 sample U5b2b like Villabruna

Q1a2 in Latvia

maybe J in France


Neolithic:

R1b1a in Lepensky Vir (Serbia)

GAC dominated by I2a2

Dereivka mostly R1b1a but also I2a2 and R1a

E1b1b1a1b1 in Croatian Cardial

J2 in Austrian LBK


Eneolithic/Chalcolithic:

R1 in Varna

R1b1a in Bulgaria


Bronze Age:

Bulgarian Yamnaya Outlier Bul4 is I2a2a1b1b

J2b2a in EMBA Croatia

Yamna type of R1b (R1b1a1a2a2 CTS1078/Z2103) in Vucedol

Asian type of R1a (R1a1a1b2 F992/S202/Z93) in Bulgarian MLBA

Arch Hades
2017-05-10, 16:15
Samples from this paper:

http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE3p_aaqnshx.pngPfft...nothing from Greece.

Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 16:28
Pfft...nothing from Greece.

Look again.

EDIT. There are 4 samples from Greek Neolithic - all females.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 16:31
Looks like Peloponnese_Neolithic is very close to Tepecik.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 16:49
J2b2a in EMBA Croatia (I4331).

Arch Hades
2017-05-10, 16:50
Look again. Neolithic females from the peloponnese..better than nothing i guess. I wonder how related they will be to the Neolithic samples from Greek Macedonia.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 17:02
R1b-Z2103 found in Vucedol.

ageladakos
2017-05-10, 17:03
What I do know is that linguistically, it still makes more sense than a migration from the Steppe to Anatolia through the Caucasus.

"No evidence of Copper Age Balkans-to-Anatolia migration

One version of the Steppe Hypothesis of Indo-European language origins suggests that Proto-Indo European languages developed in the steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas, and that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE, as part of the same incursions from the steppe that coincided with the decline of the tell settlements. If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic. This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe. "

Btw, EliasAlucard, now you know why Haak et al. chose to write "at least some" in their paper ;)

"An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family"

???????

I can already taste the tears :D

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 17:13
Anatolian idioms could have been spread by an elite dominance of a small amount of pastoralist tribes. The Hittites used the autochtonous Hatti language as a lithurgical and religious language which suggest they still viewed Hatti as their ancestral language , it's quite atypical from what we know of later IE folks who didn't kept much from pre-existing languages.

EliasAlucard
2017-05-10, 17:23
Btw, EliasAlucard, now you know why Haak et al. chose to write "at least some" in their paper ;)

"An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family"

???????

I can already taste the tears :DThey wrote "at least some" because they wanted to remain neutral on the PIE question, not because there's any validity to any other urheimat hypothesis as far as PIE is concerned. If you'd read books by actual Indo-Europeanists and understood the decisive arguments for the linguistic evidence (which is important!), you'd know why the PIE urheimat cannot have been in any other region than the Pontic-Caspian steppe, and that's also the case for the ultimate origin of the proto-Anatolian languages.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 17:30
"No evidence of Copper Age Balkans-to-Anatolia migration

One version of the Steppe Hypothesis of Indo-European language origins suggests that Proto-Indo European languages developed in the steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas, and that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE, as part of the same incursions from the steppe that coincided with the decline of the tell settlements. If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic. This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe. "

Btw, EliasAlucard, now you know why Haak et al. chose to write "at least some" in their paper ;)

"An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family"

???????

I can already taste the tears :D

Not so fast, here's a part of the paragraph you forgot to quote:

"On the other hand, our data could still be consistent with the Steppe-Balkans-Anatolia route hypothesis model, albeit with constraints. It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry. However, our results would require that such ancestry was not ubiquitous in Bronze Age Anatolia, and was perhaps tightly linked to Indo-European speaking groups. We predict that additional insight about the genetic origins of the potential speakers of early Indo-European languages will be obtained when ancient DNA data become available from additional sites in this key period in Anatolia and the Caucasus."

In other words, nothing backs up their "alternative hypothesis" placing the PIE homeland in the Caucasus or Iran (which makes zero sense when going off the linguistic evidence), furthermore the results they report do not really contradict a migration from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans, only data from Ezero and Maykop will validate (or invalidate) such a scenario

ageladakos
2017-05-10, 17:36
Anatolian idioms could have been spread by an elite dominance of a small amount of pastoralist tribes. The Hittites used the autochtonous Hatti language as a lithurgical and religious language which suggest they still viewed Hatti as their ancestral language , it's quite atypical from what we know of later IE folks who didn't kept much from pre-existing languages.

Later IE folks in let's say, central Europe didn't came to contact with (relatively) highly advanced civilizations.
Maintaining a liturgical language in a foreign language has much more to do with the nature of organised religion than anything else.
E.g. Assyrians maintained Sumerian, Germanic Catholics maintained Latin, Non-Arab Muslims maintain Arabic and so on.

Arch Hades
2017-05-10, 17:47
Sucks that there are no genomes from Mycenaeans in here. Regarding the PIE question this study doesnt even sample verified IE speaking groups like the Mycenaeans or Hittites.

ageladakos
2017-05-10, 17:56
Not so fast, here's a part of the paragraph you forgot to quote:

"On the other hand, our data could still be consistent with the Steppe-Balkans-Anatolia route hypothesis model, albeit with constraints. It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry. However, our results would require that such ancestry was not ubiquitous in Bronze Age Anatolia, and was perhaps tightly linked to Indo-European speaking groups. We predict that additional insight about the genetic origins of the potential speakers of early Indo-European languages will be obtained when ancient DNA data become available from additional sites in this key period in Anatolia and the Caucasus."

All the important bits in bold font for you :D



In other words, nothing backs up their "alternative hypothesis" placing the PIE homeland in the Caucasus or Iran (which makes zero sense when going off the linguistic evidence), furthermore the results they report do not really contradict a migration from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans, only data from Ezero and Maykop will validate (or invalidate) such a scenario

First, according to them, Anatolian languages did spread from the east, meaning via the Caucasus. Their logic is very nicely explained in the part before the "alternative hypothesis" and i do suggest that you read it again.

Secondly, this alternative "hypothesis" is a hypothesis, pretty much like the steppe "hypothesis" is a hypothesis exactly because it has not yet been proven. Simple logic implies that there should be a reason for them mentioning this alternative hypothesis. You are right about more data but ... let me enjoy the tears bro :P

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 17:58
Sucks that there are no genomes from Mycenaeans in here.

I find that extremely disappointing as well. No Bronze Age and Iron Age data from Greece even though it is sorely needed. We literally know more about hunter-gatherers from Latvia than we do about the Minoans or the Mycenaeans, how fucked up is that? :unsure:


Regarding the PIE question this study doesnt even sample verified IE speaking groups like the Mycenaeans or Hittites.

The Hittites cremated their dead IIRC, so much like Urnfield, that's an obstacle when trying to collect ancient DNA from Hittite sites.

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 18:00
Lol even by Caucasus it goes back to the steppe. You also have an IE language in the Caucasus called Ossetian. Ossetian come from the Alans , who spread from the steppes into the Caucasus.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 18:06
First, according to them, Anatolian languages did spread from the east, meaning via the Caucasus. Their logic is very nicely explained in the part before the "alternative hypothesis" and i do suggest that you read it again.

I've read this paper 3 times already, I'm currently looking at the supplemental tables. Placing the PIE homeland in the Caucasus makes absolutely no sense, not only from a linguistic POV but also from a genetic standpoint, this is quite clear because the authors themselves admit that "It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry." Note, European hunter-gatherer ancestry, not Caucasian hunter-gatherer.

That type of ancestry (EHG) is native to Eastern Europe, lies on a cline from ANE to Villabruna and strongly correlates with the dissemination of R1 lineages (as shown in this paper). There's no way around this, really. If their "alternative hypothesis" worked, you'd expect a correlation between CHG-type ancestry, J lineages and IE languages, which is definitely not what we're seeing here (refer to the BB behemoth).


Secondly, this alternative "hypothesis" is a hypothesis, pretty much like the steppe "hypothesis" is a hypothesis exactly because it has not yet been proven. Simple logic implies that there should be a reason for them mentioning this alternative hypothesis. You are right about more data but ... let me enjoy the tears bro :P

It sounds like an attempt to resuscitate Renfrew's revised Anatolian PIE homeland. Linguistically, it completely contraditcs what we know about PIE. Genetically, there's no correlation either. This funny "alternative hypothesis" will be shot down when 3rd parties analyse the data, you mark my words ;)

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 18:09
"We report new data from hunter-gatherers from France, Sicily and Croatia, as well as higher
246 coverage data from three previously published hunter-gatherers from France and Germany.18
247 The Sicilian and Croatian individuals dating to 12,000 and 6100 BCE cluster closely with
248 western hunter-gatherers, including individuals from Loschbour24 (Luxembourg, 6100 BCE),
249 Bichon20 (Switzerland, 11,700 BCE), and Villabruna18 (Italy 12,000 BCE). These results
250 demonstrate that the “western hunter-gatherer” population24 was widely distributed from the
251 Atlantic seaboard of Europe in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkan Peninsula in the
252 Southeast, for at least six thousand years, strengthening the evidence that the western hunter-
253 gatherers represent a population that expanded from a southeastern European refugium
254 following the last Ice Age around 15,000 years ago–in the process displacing or admixing
255 with the existing population of western Europe.18 38""


Very interesting point here made for Sicily. This implies that given that since Sicilians have some of the lowest WHG in all of Europe today, they must have been massively impacted by CHG-type immigration from the Caucasus as well as historical Levantine and Near Eastern admixture. This must mean within the dates sampled here, CHG type genes did not yet exist in Europe.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 18:21
Very interesting point here made for Sicily. This implies that given that since Sicilians have some of the lowest WHG in all of Europe today, they must have been massively impacted by CHG-type immigration from the Caucasus as well as historical Levantine and Near Eastern admixture. This must mean within the dates sampled here, CHG type genes did not yet exist in Europe.

I don't know what's so surprising here, we already had a WHG individual from Grotta Continenza (Abruzzo). No reason to assume Sicily was any different.

ageladakos
2017-05-10, 18:22
I've read this paper 3 times already, I'm currently looking at the supplemental tables. Placing the PIE homeland in the Caucasus makes absolutely no sense, not only from a linguistic POV but also from a genetic standpoint, this is quite clear because the authors themselves admit that "It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry." Note, European hunter-gatherer ancestry, not Caucasian hunter-gatherer.

So did they mention their alternative hypothesis simply "for the lols"?

What is the meaning of what he noticed and mentioned?


Holy shit, R1b in the Balkans - and that old?

"9221-8548 calBCE (9480±110* BP, AA-57771) Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U5b2c R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2)"

"I1819 (8825-8561 calBCE (9420±50 BP, Poz-81128), Ukraine_Mesolithic, Vasil'evka) - R1a"

You guys reading this shit? :eek:

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 18:27
Much Much more Bronze Age datas from Romania , Serbia, Latvia...0 for Greece , 0 from Rome , 1 from Anatolian , 1 from Egypt not even published :lol:

We know where genetists interest is fixed now.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 18:27
So did they mention their alternative hypothesis simply "for the lols"?

I think there is an inherent anti-steppe bias from some of the authors in this study, most notably Johannes Krause who happens to be the most vocal proponent of this strange hypothesis.

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 18:44
Very interesting point here made for Sicily. This implies that given that since Sicilians have some of the lowest WHG in all of Europe today, they must have been massively impacted by CHG-type immigration from the Caucasus as well as historical Levantine and Near Eastern admixture. This must mean within the dates sampled here, CHG type genes did not yet exist in Europe.

What is the yDNA and mtDNA of this Sicilian WHG?

Silesian
2017-05-10, 18:58
So did they mention their alternative hypothesis simply "for the lols"?

What is the meaning of what he noticed and mentioned?
Not to much eye candy for the R1b Middle Eastern origins. The R1b Iron Gate R1b Latvia and R1b Ukraine samples are something eh?

More cheese please:thumbsup:

Vucedol sample I3499-R1b-[z21203][CTS-1078] .
http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE6p_aaqnsqn.png

Orange is positive for Steppe, ancestry- I3499-R1b-[z21203
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut4png_aaqnqsn.png[/QUOTE]

Iron Gates R1b Hunter Gatherers
http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/aut2png_aaqnqsh.png

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

Silesian
2017-05-10, 19:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWgU0J0F_hE

Arch Hades
2017-05-10, 19:09
I've read this paper 3 times already, I'm currently looking at the supplemental tables. Placing the PIE homeland in the Caucasus makes absolutely no sense, not only from a linguistic POV but also from a genetic standpoint, this is quite clear because the authors themselves admit that "It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry." Note, European hunter-gatherer ancestry, not Caucasian hunter-gatherer. A matter of conjecture at this point. Whether the steppe model works regarding southeastern Europe and Anatolia remains to be known since these dipshits didnt sample verified IE speaking populations. Though looking at the ADMIXTURE analysis there seems to be steppe ancestry in more northern regions of the Balkans during the Bronze and Iron age.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 19:17
I don't know what's so surprising here, we already had a WHG individual from Grotta Continenza (Abruzzo). No reason to assume Sicily was any different.

It's surprising because a) Europe was almost homogenous at the time and b) WHG ancestry is not high everywhere in Europe but it's especially low in Sicily, implying some regions of Europe had much less replacement, while Sicilians today are only marginally descended from the people there in 6000 BC.

This contradicts my assumption that the more MENA-shifted a European is, the more conservative their genes. Not so!

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 19:18
Honestly I expected Sicilian Mesolithic to ressemble more Mesolithic Greece than Villabruna or half-way between. But it turned out the 12kya sample is like Villabruna. This said , it's still possible Mesolithic Southeast Europe influenced Sicily afterwards and even before Neolithic.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 19:24
What is the yDNA and mtDNA of this Sicilian WHG?

It's a female, so no Y-DNA, mtDNA haplogroup is U2'3'4'7'8'9 (doesn't tell us much, but it does look similar to some of the El Miron individuals from France).

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 19:35
Honestly I expected Sicilian Mesolithic to ressemble more Mesolithic Greece than Villabruna or half-way between. But it turned out the 12kya sample is like Villabruna. This said , it's still possible Mesolithic Southeast Europe influenced Sicily afterwards and even before Neolithic.

Balkan influence during the Neolithic, even, would not be sufficient to explain the modern day plotting of Sicilians: this requires historical/recent Levantine influence that is not native to/present in other Europeans. This is why that they were fully WHG back then is even more shocking.

SomaliSuldaan
2017-05-10, 19:52
There is one neolithic E-V13 sample from Croatia.Is it safe to say V13 arrived during the Neolithic with the farmers and somehow just went extinct in North Africa?

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 19:59
There is one neolithic E-V13 sample from Croatia.Is it safe to say V13 arrived during the Neolithic with the farmers and somehow just went extinct in North Africa?

I'd like to see more Neolithic data from Greece, it's possible E-L618 will be found in Neolithic Greece.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 20:03
So autosomally who does the Greek sample in this study plot with most?

Alexander
2017-05-10, 20:03
KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans4,5 is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual AfontovaGora 3

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 20:07
So autosomally who does the Greek sample in this study plot with most?

Looks like they're similar to Tepecik-Ciftlik.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 20:09
Looks like they're similar to Tepecik-Ciftlik.

Who were those? And who are they close to today?

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 20:11
Who were those? And who are they close to today?

Central Anatolian Neolithics.

Wojewoda
2017-05-10, 20:12
Something for Pioterus.

Someone from another forum - George - noticed something quite unexpeted in one of the Motala samples' data (sample I0017 Motala12 dated to "5721-5631 calBCE"):



I2a1b2a1:L147.2:6753258T->C; I2a1b:CTS1293:7317227G->A; I2a1b:CTS7218:17359886A->C; I2a1b:L178:15574052G->A; I2a1b:M423:19096091G->A; I2a1:P37.2:14491684T->C; I2a:L460:7879415A->C; I2:L68:18700150C->T; I2:M438:16638804A->G; I:CTS1301:7321418C->T; I:CTS1800:14073053G->A; I:CTS2193:14214481G->T; I:CTS2387:14286853T->C; I:CTS2514:14337364T->C; I:CTS2536:14352669G->A; I:CTS3517:14986989T->G; I:CTS3641:15089989T->C; I:CTS4273:15536870C->T; I:CTS4340:15595624G->A; I:CTS4848:15862842C->T; I:CTS5650:16415916A->G; I:CTS5946:16567253A->G; I:CTS6497:16939794A->T; I:CTS7540:17525137A->G; I:CTS7831:17692855T->A; I:CTS8333:17940414G->A; I:CTS8345:17949402C->G; I:CTS8876:18257568G->A; I:CTS8963:18582617C->T; I:CTS9860:19104986G->A; I:CTS10058:19233673A->G; I:CTS10941:22845794A->G; I:CTS11540:23156725C->T; I:CTS11779:23267211G->A; I:CTS11979:23401471C->T; I:FGC2412:21689728A->G; I:FGC2413:8262092C->T; I:FGC2414:21155653C->T; I:FGC2415:13835003T->Chet; I:FGC2416:7642823G->T; I:FGC7049:22459264G->A; I:FGC7050:22479907A->T; I:FI2:8382265C->G; I:FI3:8485677C->A; I:FI4:8873160G->T; I:L41:19048602G->A; I:L503:21359407C->G; I:L578:8267857G->A; I:L758:8536868C->G; I:L772:15615533C->A; I:L844.1:2884029T->C; I:L846:7856500C->T; I:L1197:14974451C->T; I:M258:15023364T->C; I:P38:14484379A->C; I:P212:3545070T->A; I:PF3627.2:6662712C->T; I:PF3640:7681156T->A; I:PF3641:7688470T->C; I:PF3660:8466652G->A; I:PF3661:8484606C->A; I:PF3665:8643763A->G; I:PF3687:13610767C->T; I:PF3742:16354708G->A; I:PF3796:21119888G->T; I:PF3800:21402723A->G; I:PF3811:21627180C->T; I:PF3814:21839183A->G; I:PF3817:21939618G->A; I:PF3828:22458430C->T; I:PF3829:22458740A->G; I:PF3833:22485425A->T; I:PF3836:22525421T->G; I:PF3837:22573702G->A; I:YSC0000272:22115103G->A; I:Z16985:13804066G->C; I:Z16987:22243817A->Ghet




I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

So do Slavs (or at least I2a-Dinaric Slavs) come from Mesolithic Sweden? :o

Or I2a-Dinarics were initially Goths who got assimilated by Slavs during late Migration Period/early Middle Ages?

Pioterus with his love for Heavy Metal looks Gothic as Hell to me. ;)

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 20:14
Who were those? And who are they close to today?

A set of Iran_Neolithic and Levant_Neolithic-shifted farmers from South-Central Anatolia (Tep samples on this PCA):

http://pichoster.net/images/2017/05/10/4a48c002ccd51f8d84916a32bab37033.png

Probably came from the Levant.

Simi
2017-05-10, 20:27
It's quite amazing how non-steppe Globular Amphora is. At the same time, the Corded-Beaker type of genetic structure shows already in Eneolithic Ukraine, ca 3500 BC. I wonder what implications this has for the westward spread of Late PIE; perhaps it wasn't as much elite dominance as previously thought, but more genocide and displacement-level migrations following an initial admixture event in Eastern Europe? The Beaker migration into Britain certainly appears to follow this model.


Or perhaps it didn't, I sure hope there's data from Ezero in there! What I do know is that linguistically, it still makes more sense than a migration from the Steppe to Anatolia through the Caucasus.
Are you kidding? All Balkan cultures across the board, from the Chalcolithic onwards, include Corded Ware-ish outliers that progressively appear to pull all of the Balkans northward over the centuries, suggesting multiple southbound migrations from Northern and Eastern Europe.

Notice how Trypillia_outlier, Balkans_Ch_outlier and Varna_outlier all cluster tightly with each other in contemporary North-Central Europe, alongside Nordic Bronze Age samples, Unetice, Beakers etc. Vucedol, Balkans_BA and Varna are also clinal between CW and Starcevo-like Neolithics.

The genetic data suggests massive movements from Central and Eastern Europe to the Balkans, possibly explaining the relationship between Germanic and Albanian and supporting the Balkan theory of Proto-Anatolian migrations when pieced together with archaeological data and the linguistic models.
The argument will be settled, of course, if elite Hittites and Ezero remains are ever analyzed. It's generally assumed anyway that the original Hittites were a very small minority among the Hattians, so the absence of steppe admixture in the three BA Anatolia samples doesn't really tell us anything, lol. Also, the Iran_Neolithic introgression into Anatolia is 100% unrelated to Indo-European migrations and amounts to some other phenomenon.

What's your prediction on Mycenaeans anyway? They'll follow the same Balkans_BA pattern obviously, but the question is where on the cline they'll be.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 20:38
A set of Iran_Neolithic and Levant_Neolithic-shifted farmers from South-Central Anatolia (Tep samples on this PCA):

Probably came from the Levant.

So what happened in Greece since then? Modern Greeks are quite removed from the Levant. Since 6000 BC it appears Sicily was overwhelmed by people from the Levant area, while Greece experienced the opposite, like the two switched places more or less.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 21:01
What's your prediction on Mycenaeans anyway? They'll follow the same Balkans_BA pattern obviously, but the question is where on the cline they'll be.

My guess is close to modern Cretans and Sicilians. Greece got the stronger NE European element likely from Dorians, from influences of Illyrians and Thracians, and eventually Slavs.

Pioterus
2017-05-10, 21:28
Something for Pioterus.(...)
So do Slavs (or at least I2a-Dinaric Slavs) come from Mesolithic Sweden? :o

Or I2a-Dinarics were initially Goths who got assimilated by Slavs during late Migration Period/early Middle Ages?

First, now it is official I2a1's are the True Nordics, I2a2's are the True Dinarics.

Secondly - I2a1-L621 "Slavic" clades do seem to be recent out-of-Carpathia explosion. Goths (but Goths does seem like a Roman Limes byproduct, like a demand pulled by supply so to speak (you become a thief/ join a warband when you see piles of gold "laying" on the streets), not real ethnicity)? Iron-smelting "Dwarves" (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/44880-I2a-L621-Map-of-Subclades-by-MagiQ?p=1212878&viewfull=1#post1212878)?


Pioterus with his love for Heavy Metal looks Gothic as Hell to me. ;)

We have at least one "Celebrity" Pole (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAHHJl2mFXU) with confirmed I2a-L621, so, is it a common thing of I2a's ;) ?

I can see some parallels with KelThuzz here (even though I am not his fanboy ofc) :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fodrQUW0MKM

Pioterus
2017-05-10, 21:52
It's quite amazing how non-steppe Globular Amphora is. At the same time, the Corded-Beaker type of genetic structure shows already in Eneolithic Ukraine, ca 3500 BC. I wonder what implications this has for the westward spread of Late PIE; perhaps it wasn't as much elite dominance as previously thought, but more genocide and displacement-level migrations following an initial admixture event in Eastern Europe? The Beaker migration into Britain certainly appears to follow this model.

I think you have for example the vanishing I2a1's and I2a2's as your smoking gun. My "forefathers" ran to the hills and kept in hiding in Carpathians for several Millenias before they resurfaced on the stage around fall of Rome period.

I fucking demand a Native Status in Scandinavia, a Saab or Volvo and a boat and a hut in the woods for me! :evilgrin: !

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 21:59
Are you kidding? All Balkan cultures across the board, from the Chalcolithic onwards, include Corded Ware-ish outliers that progressively appear to pull all of the Balkans northward over the centuries, suggesting multiple southbound migrations from Northern and Eastern Europe.

I said this before the paper came out, mainly because Reich suggested that there was no evidence of gene flow from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans. Obviously, there was, which is why we see a lot of Yamna-type ancestry in the Balkans starting from the Chalcolithic.


Notice how Trypillia_outlier, Balkans_Ch_outlier and Varna_outlier all cluster tightly with each other in contemporary North-Central Europe, alongside Nordic Bronze Age samples, Unetice, Beakers etc. Vucedol, Balkans_BA and Varna are also clinal between CW and Starcevo-like Neolithics.

The genetic data suggests massive movements from Central and Eastern Europe to the Balkans, possibly explaining the relationship between Germanic and Albanian and supporting the Balkan theory of Proto-Anatolian migrations when pieced together with archaeological data and the linguistic models.

Yes, I've noticed. I'm not disagreeing, I think the authors went full-retard with their "alternative hypothesis", if anything these results reinforce the validity of the Pontic steppe as the PIE homeland (as well as the association between EHG-type ancestry and R1 lineages). And I agree regarding the relationship between Albanian and Germanic, this is too often overlooked.


The argument will be settled, of course, if elite Hittites and Ezero remains are ever analyzed. It's generally assumed anyway that the original Hittites were a very small minority among the Hattians, so the absence of steppe admixture in the three BA Anatolia samples doesn't really tell us anything, lol. Also, the Iran_Neolithic introgression into Anatolia is 100% unrelated to Indo-European migrations and amounts to some other phenomenon.

Indeed, I don't know why some expect to see a massive blitzkrieg throughout Anatolia with an equal distribution of the EMBA steppe component, the Proto-Anatolians are bound to have been an intrusive minority in a region which already was quite diverse and heavily populated by the beginning of the Bronze Age. This is what Anatolia's linguistic landscape looked like during the Middle Bronze Age for example:

http://pichoster.net/images/2017/05/10/cd4f12fbb4c64d590c9353c8286db9ae.jpg

^^The Anatolian languages (Hittite/Nešili, Palaic, Luwian, Lydian, etc) are in different shades of green, gray and blue. The rest of the languages, especially those in red (Kaskian, Hattian) are non-IE. There seems to have been rapid contact-induced divergence after the earliest Anatolian speakers had arrived, as Hittite is already mutually unintelligible with other Anatolian languages when it first shows up in the epigraphic record (mostly in the form of personal names).


What's your prediction on Mycenaeans anyway? They'll follow the same Balkans_BA pattern obviously, but the question is where on the cline they'll be.

I think they will initially be close to the most CW-shifted Balkans_BA samples, in fact that's where I'd expect the Proto-Greeks to end up (judging from the linguistic evidence, Proto-Greek was part of a Late PIE dialect continuum which was spoken around the forest steppe). On the other hand, if there was substructure in Mycenaean Greece, I would also expect Greece_Neolithic to have had an impact in the Peloponnesus and other adjacent areas (Attica for example). So at least some samples could potentially fall in the East Mediterranean continuum close to modern-day Maniots, Aegean islanders and Cretans. In turn, more of that kind of ancestry was absorbed, so I'd expect even more samples to fall in the aforementioned continuum during the Iron Age.

Just my 2 cents, could be wrong, won't lose sleep over it either way.

Simi
2017-05-10, 22:04
I fucking demand a Native Status in Scandinavia, a Saab or Volvo...

They're both Chinese nowadays. But you're always welcome here. ;)

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 22:06
So what happened in Greece since then? Modern Greeks are quite removed from the Levant. Since 6000 BC it appears Sicily was overwhelmed by people from the Levant area, while Greece experienced the opposite, like the two switched places more or less.

Greece became Indo-European-speaking, that's what happened in between ;)

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 22:14
Greece became Indo-European-speaking, that's what happened in between ;)

But the difference between modern Greeks and this sample is not just increased NE Euro. Greeks now do have substantial WHG, and they do not shift toward the Levant except some islanders.

Something else must have occurred, too.

With Sicily it's more clear cut: the influence of Phoenicians, Jews, Berbers, Arabs, etc. changed them significantly as did the CHG wave of migration.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 22:19
BTW, one of the Balkans_BA samples from Merichleri in Bulgaria (I2163) is R1a-Z93, the dates given for this sample are 1750-1625 calBCE (3400±30 BP)... At the right time and at the right place for an association with the Proto-Greeks, this lineage points to the Late PIE dialect continuum (which comprised the ancestors of Proto-Greek, Proto-Armenian and Proto-Indo-Iranian) that was spoken on the forest-steppe. Neat stuff.

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But the difference between modern Greeks and this sample is not just increased NE Euro. Greeks now do have substantial WHG, and they do not shift toward the Levant except some islanders.

So? The Balkans_BA samples have substantial WHG-type ancestry, enough to account for what we see in modern-day Greeks.

tauromenion
2017-05-10, 22:25
So? The Balkans_BA samples have substantial WHG-type ancestry, enough to account for what we see in modern-day Greeks.

My point is Greece seems to have also undergone a near total population replacement.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 22:34
My point is Greece seems to have also undergone a near total population replacement.

No it doesn't. What a strange claim!

Dohan.
2017-05-10, 22:34
There's no areas in the whole extended West Eurasian region that has not largely changed Neolithic onwards.

Really Sardinians are the only one that come out as exception to the rule.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 22:42
One of the Anatolia_BA samples from Isparta province (I2495) - 2558-2295 calBCE (3925±35 BP) - carried Y-DNA haplogroup J1a, interesting. I guess this explains why Anatolia_BA is modeled as ~72% Anatolia_Neolithic-like + ~28% Iran_Neolithic-like (the latter probably is the culprit here).

Simi
2017-05-10, 22:56
Does the PCA suffer from severe projection bias? I'm having trouble reconciling ancient and modern layers.

Should we expect the Balkans_BA cline to be more similar to the contemporary cline of the Balkans or not? (Serbia->->Greece)
And the moderns behind Nordic_BA. Is that like, France and Croatia, or am I blind? They should have put labels in any case.

Reposting Woj's screenshot:
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaa4pn_aaqeppe.png

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 23:04
Does the PCA suffer from severe projection bias? I'm having trouble reconciling ancient and modern layers.

Should we expect the Balkans_BA cline to be more similar to the contemporary cline of the Balkans or not? (Serbia->->Greece)
And the moderns behind Nordic_BA. Is that like, France and Croatia, or am I blind? They should have put labels in any case.

Reposting Woj's screenshot:
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/pcaaaa4pn_aaqeppe.png

Judging from how Tepecik_Ciftlik overlaps with some of the samples (Cypriots?), I'd say the PCA probably suffers from projection bias.

Simi
2017-05-10, 23:15
That's very unprofessional and disappointing. Anyway, does the northern end of Balkans_BA cluster with modern Greeks and Albanians?

Arch Hades
2017-05-10, 23:23
So what happened in Greece since then? Modern Greeks are quite removed from the Levant. Since 6000 BC it appears Sicily was overwhelmed by people from the Levant area, while Greece experienced the opposite, like the two switched places more or less.
The study doesnt even sample "Greeks". It samples 4 females from the peloponnese from like 6,000 BC. For Greeks we would need like 1,500 BC and later. The neolithic peloponnese samples are a lot like Anatolian farmers but even more Southern shifted...ie slightly less influenced from WHGs

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That's very unprofessional and disappointing. Anyway, does the northern end of Balkans_BA cluster with modern Greeks and Albanians?

Shouldnt it cluster closer to modern Romanians and Croatians...since none of these samples after the Neolithic are from South of Serbia.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-10, 23:30
The study doesnt even sample "Greeks". It samples 4 females from the peloponnese from like 6,000 BC. For Greeks we would need like 1,500 BC and later. The neolithic peloponnese samples are a lot like Anatolian farmers but even more Southern shifted...ie slightly less influenced from WHGs

Not less influenced by WHG, just very similar to Tepecik (so Iran_Neolithic & Levant_Neolithic-shifted).


Shouldnt it cluster closer more close to Romanians and Croates.

Second that, they should be fairly close to Croatians.

Simi
2017-05-10, 23:31
Shouldnt it cluster closer more close to Romanians and Croates.

Well, that's not what I'm seeing in the graph, but it's kinda hard to interpret and likely suffers from projection bias.

ageladakos
2017-05-11, 00:00
I think they will initially be close to the most CW-shifted Balkans_BA samples, in fact that's where I'd expect the Proto-Greeks to end up (judging from the linguistic evidence, Proto-Greek was part of a Late PIE dialect continuum which was spoken around the forest steppe). On the other hand, if there was substructure in Mycenaean Greece, I would also expect Greece_Neolithic to have had an impact in the Peloponnesus and other adjacent areas (Attica for example).

Dorians came down from the north which resulted to many of the pre-existing Greek tribes to migrate and colonise the coastlines of Asia Minor. I assume that it is very likely that this was caused by other tribes coming downwards the balkans (thracians/illyrians), and pushed some Greek tribes to the south. The Atheneans represented the pre-Dorian Greeks, and Ionia that was colonised by them spoke a very similar dialect. I expect that Atheneans were probably similar to the Myceneans in this logic. On the other hand, the Doric dialect was spoken in western Greece and Peloponessos, which means that they could have very easily mixed or/and pushed the pre-Dorian's inlands and up on the mountains.

P.s. The "flee to the mountains" is always the case, from minoans in Crete, to islanders in the medieval times, to revolutionaries in ottoman times and resistance in ww2. It is also the meaning and origin of the word "acropolis".

I hope you guys do realize that 6k-3k=3k, that is a shitload of prehistoric time and all sorts of things could have happened.

Arch Hades
2017-05-11, 00:18
Tepecik is eastern Anatolia, right? Anyway i cant tell whats pulling the Neolithic samples from Southern Greece so southward without looking at various admixture graphs.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 00:21
Tepecik is eastern Anatolia, right? Anyway i cant tell whats pulling the Neolithic samples from Southern Greece so southward without looking at various admixture graphs.

Tepecik is in Niğde province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C4%9Fde_Province), so south-central Anatolia.

Arch Hades
2017-05-11, 00:27
Tepecik is in Niğde province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C4%9Fde_Province), so south-central Anatolia.
I google Tepecik Turkey and i get different results lol. I dont know. Anyway it may be Neolithic Levantine admixture influencing the Southern shift on those neolithic genomes from Greece. U could be right.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 00:34
I google Tepecik Turkey and i get different results lol. I dont know. Anyway it may be Neolithic Levantine admixture influencing the Southern shift on those neolithic genomes from Greece. U could be right.

There's an entire website dedicated to this archeological site:

"Tepecik-Çiftlik is a prehistoric settlement in Volcanic Cappadocia, Central Anatolia. The settlement is within the borders of Niğde Province, Çiftlik district, and is dated to approximately 7500-5800 BC."

Source (https://www.tepecik-ciftlik.org/homepage-1)

The authors of the paper do mention a connection to the Levantine PPNB:

"One possibility is that this independent migration is related to an earlier Aceramic Neolithic in Greece that was derived from the pre-pottery Neolithic (PPNB) of Cyprus and the Levant46. Under this model, the earliest Neolithic populations in Greece migrated from the Levant, perhaps via the southwestern Anatolian coast as early as 7000 BCE,45,46 but the majority of Neolithic ancestry arrived around 500 years later via a route that passed through northwestern Anatolia. The predictions of this hypothesis could be further tested with genome-wide data of Early Neolithic individuals from Cyprus, Crete and southwest Anatolia. Populations related to the Peloponnese Neolithic potentially made a small contribution to the ancestry of other Mediterranean Neolithic populations like Early Neolithic Iberia and Neolithic farmers from northern Greece9 but we do not strongly reject models without such a contribution (Supplementary Information, section 3)."

Dohan.
2017-05-11, 00:43
I just remember that EV13 was found in eastern Spain in a painted ceramic Neolithic culture. I am not sure which but it was the earliest Neolithic site in Spain , maybe Cardium pottery culture. This Neolithic took a Mediterranean route from East to.West.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 00:44
No it doesn't. What a strange claim!

Modern Greeks don't have significant affinity to the Levant, they are simply the southern end of a cline down the Balkans (or can be modeled as southern Italian and Slavic mixed).

It would seem to me that Greeks are today, for their geographical location, surprisingly NORTHWARD shifted.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 00:46
Modern Greeks don't have significant affinity to the Levant they are simply the southern end of a cline down the Balkans (or can be modeled as southern Italian and Slavic mixed).

I don't know why a significant affinity to the Levant is required here, all that is required is a significant affinity to Greece_Neolithic.

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Also, it seems we do actually have one sample from Ezero, Bul10, a female (no info on her mtDNA), and judging from the ADMIX chart (Extended Data Figure 2) she does have significant chunks of steppe ancestry. This individual is grouped with the other Balkan_BA samples.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 00:54
I don't know why a significant affinity to the Levant is required here, all that is required is a significant affinity to Greece_Neolithic.

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Also, it seems we do actually have one sample from Ezero, Bul10, a female (no info on her mtDNA), and judging from the ADMIX chart (Extended Data Figure 2) she does have significant chunks of steppe ancestry. This individual is grouped with the other Balkan_BA samples.

You said that the Greek sample was shifted to the Levant, so I said then Greece has changed very significantly since, because modern Greeks do not in fact shift toward the Levant to any significant amount.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 00:58
You said that the Greek sample was shifted to the Levant, so I said then Greece has changed very significantly since, because modern Greeks do not in fact shift toward the Levant to any significant amount.

The Peloponnese_Neolithic samples are indeed shifted towards Levant_Neolithic compared to Anatolia_Neolithic, however likewise Peloponnese_Neolithic is shifted towards WHG compared to Levant_Neolithic. In turn, the Peloponnese_Neolithic samples seem to be quite similar to Tepecik-Ciftlik (which are shifted towards Iran_Neolithic). I'd surmise that at least some contemporary Greek populations from the Peloponnesus (Maniots for example) could be modeled as mainly Balkan_BA + Peloponnese_Neolithic... But perhaps I'm wrong, who knows, it remains to be seen.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 00:59
The Peloponnese_Neolithic samples are indeed shifted towards Levant_Neolithic compared to Anatolia_Neolithic, however likewise Peloponnese_Neolithic is shifted towards WHG compared to Levant_Neolithic. In turn, the Peloponnese_Neolithic samples seem to be quite similar to Tepecik-Ciftlik (which are shifted towards Iran_Neolithic). I'd surmise that at least some contemporary Greek populations from the Peloponnesus (Maniots for example) could be modeled as mainly Balkan_BA + Peloponnese_Neolithic... But perhaps I'm wrong, who knows, it remains to be seen.

Maniots from what I see are really close to Sicilians/Cretans but with a bit of extra North European.

Dohan.
2017-05-11, 00:59
When we sample Neolithic Anatolians we have 3/4 chances to end up on G2a as this hg seem to have dominate.
Yet Neolithic Spain had EV13 , Rv88 and I2a and is more telling about the hidden yDna smaller diversity in Neolithics.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 01:00
Maniots from what I see are really close to Sicilians/Cretans but with a bit of extra North European.

Yes, that's why I think they could be modeled as Balkans_BA + Peloponnese_Neolithic, however perhaps this is also bound to work for other populations (Tsakonians for instance).

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When we sample Neolithic Anatolians we have 3/4 chances to end up on G2a as this hg seem to have dominate.
Yet Neolithic Spain had EV13 , Rv88 and I2a and is more telling about the hidden yDna smaller diversity in Neolithics.

One of the Ukraine_Mesolithic samples (I1734) was R1b-V88. Technically, we can now say that Eastern Europe (the steppe in particular) was R1b's diversity hotspot.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 01:07
Yes, that's why I think they could be modeled as Balkans_BA + Peloponnese_Neolithic, however perhaps this is also bound to work for other populations (Tsakonians for instance).

I do think though that Maniots differ from other Peloponnesians (who have varying, and higher, degrees of Slavic admixture) because of Cretan migration to the southern Peloponnese.

Dohan.
2017-05-11, 01:11
It's easy to think a Mesolithic steppe or Ukrainan RV88 man ended in Anatolia and Levant.

EV13 might have been born in Anatolian or Balkans for all we care , of course out of a Em78 lineage from the Levant / Sinai / Nile Valley package.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 01:13
I do think though that Maniots differ from other Peloponnesians (who have varying, and higher, degrees of Slavic admixture) because of Cretan migration to the southern Peloponnese.

Possible, but that's above the point really, there was no population replacement, there was a lot of admixture, but no actual replacement. All Greeks, even those with the highest amounts of steppe-mediated admixture, could be modeled as significantly Peloponnese_Neolithic. If you want to know what population replacement looks like, read the Bell Beaker behemoth, from the paper:

"In either case, our results imply a minimum of 93±2% local population turnover by the Middle Bronze Age (Supplementary Information, section 6)."

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It's easy to think a Mesolithic steppe or Ukrainan RV88 man ended in Anatolia and Levant.

EV13 might have been born in Anatolian or Balkans for all we care , of course out of a Em78 lineage from the Levant / Sinai / Nile Valley package.

It's possible L618 will show up in Southern Anatolia or Greece, yes.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 01:33
Possible, but that's above the point really, there was no population replacement, there was a lot of admixture, but no actual replacement. All Greeks, even those with the highest amounts of steppe-mediated admixture, could be modeled as significantly Peloponnese_Neolithic. If you want to know what population replacement looks like, read the Bell Beaker behemoth, from the paper:

I think using my other example, if Sicily was 100% WHG back then, then they've seen at least 80% replacement since then.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 01:37
I think using my other example, if Sicily was 100% WHG back then, then they've seen at least 80% replacement since then.

You could speak of population replacement for Sicily, yes, but for that we'll also need to see Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age genomes from Sicily and Southern Italy.

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 02:00
You could speak of population replacement for Sicily, yes, but for that we'll also need to see Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age genomes from Sicily and Southern Italy.

Bronze Age Sicilians likely would be closer to those today, having by then received a large inflow from the Caucasus (and then later we begin seeing Phoenicians, Jews, Arabs).

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 02:09
Bronze Age Sicilians likely would be closer to those today, having by then received a large inflow from the Caucasus (and then later we begin seeing Phoenicians, Jews, Arabs).

Possible, but you never know. We've seen our fair share of surprises today ;)

tauromenion
2017-05-11, 02:12
Possible, but you never know. We've seen our fair share of surprises today ;)

If Bronze Age Sicilians were not shifted toward the Near East, the implication is that all of that Near Eastern affinity is Phoenician, Elymian, Jewish, Berber, and Arab from around 1000 BC to the present, in which case a lot of people online, especially on a specific website, if you know what I mean, would be very unhappy.

Simi
2017-05-11, 07:54
Hey, turns out Bul10 is from Ezero, 3007 calBCE. One of the northernmost Balkan_BA samples.

Polako
2017-05-11, 09:11
I made a spreadsheet focusing on the Y-DNA and mtDNA...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Xxtc19_QTwWm58JlSuXQrDoFi_5aD_zNGoscqKgTm0/edit?usp=sharing

Simi
2017-05-11, 09:34
I made a spreadsheet focusing on the Y-DNA and mtDNA...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Xxtc19_QTwWm58JlSuXQrDoFi_5aD_zNGoscqKgTm0/edit?usp=sharing

When should we expect the samples put in the Global 10 and Basal K7 spreadsheets?

Polako
2017-05-11, 10:13
When should we expect the samples put in the Global 10 and Basal K7 spreadsheets?

After they're released, which will be in a couple of weeks.

Pioterus
2017-05-11, 10:30
I made a spreadsheet focusing on the Y-DNA and mtDNA...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Xxtc19_QTwWm58JlSuXQrDoFi_5aD_zNGoscqKgTm0/edit?usp=sharing

No I2a1b2's in either of two papers (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/48029-The-Bell-Beaker-Behemoth-(Olalde-et-al-2017)?p=1294534&viewfull=1#post1294534). There are some I2a1b1's and the British Isles I2a1b's are in "best case scenario" probably what is called I2a-Disles forefathers (a wild guess).

Interesting, were my forefathers some freaking cave dwellers? WTF?

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 11:32
No I2a1b2's in either of two papers (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/48029-The-Bell-Beaker-Behemoth-(Olalde-et-al-2017)?p=1294534&viewfull=1#post1294534). There are some I2a1b1's and the British Isles I2a1b's are in "best case scenario" probably what is called I2a-Disles forefathers (a wild guess).

Interesting, were my forefathers some freaking cave dwellers? WTF?

And what should I say with my I1 totally absent in all 3 recent papers?

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 12:09
It seems like for some reason (in agreement with previous papers) that R1b had spread outside of the proto-Indo-European urheimat a few thousand years before the Indo-European migrations kicked off big time, in this case, Latvia. What's Iron_Gates_HG btw?

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 12:39
Based on the fact that GAC had I2 and no steppe admixture we can put to rest Gimbutas' idea that GAC was a "kurganised culture":



Wave 1, predating Kurgan I, expansion from the lower Volga to the Dnieper, leading to coexistence of Kurgan I and the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. Repercussions of the migrations extend as far as the Balkans and along the Danube to the Vinča culture in Serbia and Lengyel culture in Hungary.

Wave 2, mid 4th millennium BC, originating in the Maykop culture and resulting in advances of "kurganized" hybrid cultures into northern Europe around 3000 BC (Globular Amphora culture, Baden culture, and ultimately Corded Ware culture). According to Gimbutas this corresponds to the first intrusion of Indo-European languages into western and northern Europe.

Wave 3, 3000–2800 BC, expansion of the Pit Grave culture beyond the steppes, with the appearance of the characteristic pit graves as far as the areas of modern Romania, Bulgaria, eastern Hungary and Georgia, coincident with the end of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and Trialeti culture in Georgia (c.2750 BC).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png



The Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), German Kugelamphoren-Kultur (KAK), ca. 3400–2800 BC



The Corded Ware culture (German: Schnurkeramik; French: céramique cordée; Dutch: touwbekercultuur) comprises a broad Indo-European archaeological horizon of Europe between c. 2900 BC – circa 2350 BC

Based on these WIKIPEDIA dates GAC dissolved some 100 years after CWC appearence.

http://www.tropie.tarnow.opoka.org.pl/images/amphora1.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg/1200px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png

Pioterus
2017-05-11, 12:42
And what should I say with my I1 totally absent in all 3 recent papers?

I think this could have been anticipated with previous papers - I1 appears relatively late - first in Hungary arrives north of Carpathia in Iron Age (guess) and no one knows where you guys have been parachuted from.

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 12:49
I think this could have been anticipated with previous papers - I1 appears relatively late - first in Hungary arrives north of Carpathia in Iron Age (guess) and no one knows where you guys have been parachuted from.

One instance was found in Hungarian Neolthic (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/first-i1-m253-from-prehistoric-europe.html).

Genetiker also claims that one of the Swedish Mesolthic samples belonged to I1 or pre-I1 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-y-snp-calls-from-stone-age-sweden/).

ageladakos
2017-05-11, 12:58
It seems like for some reason (in agreement with previous papers) that R1b had spread outside of the proto-Indo-European urheimat a few thousand years before the Indo-European migrations kicked off big time, in this case, Latvia. What's Iron_Gates_HG btw?

Iron gates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Gates), if it is what you are asking.

About PIE, it is all in this part

One version of the Steppe Hypothesis of Indo-European language origins suggests that Proto-Indo European languages developed in the steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas, and that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE, as part of the same incursions from the steppe that coincided with the decline of the tell settlements. If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic. This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.

An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family"

Simi
2017-05-11, 13:08
Based on the fact that GAC had I2 and no steppe admixture we can put to rest Gimbutas' idea that GAC was a "kurganised culture":



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png





Based on these WIKIPEDIA dates GAC dissolved some 100 years after CWC appearence.

http://www.tropie.tarnow.opoka.org.pl/images/amphora1.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg/1200px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png
It's possible that GA, like the Balkan_BA cultures, had small numbers of Steppic outliers. If archaeology supports Kurganization, I'd say it's even likely.

If anything, this paper and the Beaker behemoth suggest that mixing and melting pots were not as central to the Corded Ware and Beaker phenomena, as previously thought. Yet even if CW largely didn't mix with GA, a GA-like source of admixture is necessary, along with a Steppe source, to produce the Ukraine_Eneolithic type of genetic structure later seen in CW, BB and contemporary Europe.


What's Iron_Gates_HG btw?

Serbian HGs from between 8000-6000 BC.

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 13:41
Serbian HGs from between 8000-6000 BC.Okay, so in other words, R1b had colonized large parts of Europe thousands of years before Indo-European migrations had begun.

Cromagnorse
2017-05-11, 14:58
In a few individuals from southeastern Europe, we find evidence
336 of steppe-related ancestry far earlier (defined here as a mixture of EHG and CHG similar to
337 the genetic signature of individuals of the later Yamnaya; Figure 1B,D). One individual
338 (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dates to 4711-4550 BCE, one (I2181) from nearby
339 Smyadovo dates to 4550-4450 BCE, and a third individual (I1927) from Verteba cave,
340 associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian complex, dates to 3619-2936 BCE. These findings
341 push back by almost 2000 years the first evidence of steppe ancestry this far West in Europe,


Interesting. This fits quite well (but not entirely as far as the details are concerned) with the Balkan route theory regarding the migration of the Anatolian branch of IE-languages. To quote David Anthony in The Horse, the Wheel and Language, p. 249-259:


About 4200 BCE herders who probably came from the
Dnieper valley appeared on the northern edge of the Danube delta.

[...]

The lake country north of the delta was then occupied by Old European farmers of the Bolgrad
culture. They left quickly after the steppe people showed up. The immigrants built kurgan graves and carried maces with stone heads shaped like horse heads, objects that quickly appeared in a number of Old European towns.

They acquired, either by trade or as loot, copper from the tell towns of the lower Danube valley, much of which they directed back into the steppes around the lower Dnieper. Their move into the lower Danube valley probably was the historical event that separated the Pre-Anatolian dialects, spoken by the migrants, from the archaic Proto-Indo-European language community back in the steppes.

[...]

The steppe culture involved in the migration has been called variously
the Skelya culture, the Suvorovo culture, the Utkonsonovka group,
and the Novodanilovka culture.

[...]
The Causes and Targets of the Migrations

Winters began to get colder in the interior steppes after about 4200 BCE.
The marshlands of the Danube delta are the largest in Europe west of the
Volga. Marshes were the preferred winter refuge for nomadic pastoralists
in the Black Sea steppes during recorded history, because they offered
good winter forage and cover for cattle. The Danube delta was richer in
this resource than any other place on the Black Sea. [...]
Another attraction was the abundant copper that came from Old European
towns.

[...]

But even if climatic cooling and crop failures must have been significant
causes of these widespread tell abandonments, they were not the only
cause. The massacres at Yunatsite and Hotnitsa testify to conflict. Polished
stone mace heads were status weapons that glorified the cracking of heads.

It seems that there was a preceding PIE-migration to the Balkans, though, since the steppe-infused Varna I and Smyadovo samples (as far south as central-eastern Bulgaria, mind you!) predate the estimated Anatolian migration from Ukraine by 350-500 years and 350-250 years, respectively. Then again, I suppose this is not very strange, since it also turns out that R1bs had been spreading their seed outside the steppes for millennia by that time.

Also, I suppose this would point to regional dominance by a small pre-proto-Anatolian speaking elite, quite the contrary to the massive population replacement of Britain at the hands of Corded Ware/Bell Beaker steppe folks:

Other Copper Age (~5000-4000 BCE) individuals from
344 the Balkans have little evidence of steppe ancestry, but Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE)
345 individuals do (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%).

Hence, I would expect the Anatolian IE tribes to have been quite woggy by the time they actually reached Anatolia.

At any rate, we now have DNA evidence, in addition to the previous archaeological and linguistic evidence, which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the Anatolian branch migrated through the Balkan route.

ageladakos
2017-05-11, 15:00
Okay, so in other words, R1b had colonized large parts of Europe thousands of years before Indo-European migrations had begun.

Which implies that ...??? :D

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 15:02
Which implies that ...??? :DR1b is unlikely to be an Indo-European marker. Doesn't mean there were no proto-Indo-European speaking R1b males in Yamnaya of course, but that R1b distribution in Europe simply wasn't the result of the classical Indo-European expansions (as in, starting from around 5kya).

So in other words, R1a is once again the main Indo-European marker. I guess that makes the forum Poles happy, lol.

Pioterus
2017-05-11, 15:14
(...)So in other words, R1a is once again the main Indo-European marker. I guess that makes the forum Poles happy, lol.

Some forum Poles are figuring out wtf happened with their forefathers, as some Balkan Slavs (I2a-L621s)and Nordic guys (I1s) should.
:confused:

Cromagnorse
2017-05-11, 15:29
R1b is unlikely to be an Indo-European marker. Doesn't mean there were no proto-Indo-European speaking R1b males in Yamnaya of course, but that R1b distribution in Europe simply wasn't the result of the classical Indo-European expansions (as in, starting from around 5kya).

So in other words, R1a is once again the main Indo-European marker. I guess that makes the forum Poles happy, lol.

Well, yeah, R1b as a whole certainly isn't proto-Indo-European (Villabruna, Italy, in 12 000 BC f ex isn't Indo-European since IE didn't exist at the time, nor is the old, African R1b-V88). however, it seems to me that the major branches of modern European R1b arose around the time of the massive IE invasions of Europe ca 3000 BC. I interpret this as a population explosion and thus greater chance for mutations (due to an increase in the amount of "subjects", so to speak), following the Indo-European conquest of Europe and its women, as well as attainment of great wealth and status. Chicks dig badass conquerors and chieftains with well-filled coffers.

https://i2.wp.com/thompsonhunt.wanderingtrees.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/08/R1b_Tree_Chart.png

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 15:36
So in other words, R1a is once again the main Indo-European marker. I guess that makes the forum Poles happy, lol.

The forum Poles feel too superior to bother with such trivia. ;)

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 16:14
Well, yeah, R1b as a whole certainly isn't proto-Indo-European (Villabruna, Italy, in 12 000 BC f ex isn't Indo-European since IE didn't exist at the time, nor is the old, African R1b-V88). however, it seems to me that the major branches of modern European R1b arose around the time of the massive IE invasions of Europe ca 3000 BC. I interpret this as a population explosion and thus greater chance for mutations (due to an increase in the amount of "subjects", so to speak), following the Indo-European conquest of Europe and its women, as well as attainment of great wealth and status. Chicks dig badass conquerors and chieftains with well-filled coffers.

https://i2.wp.com/thompsonhunt.wanderingtrees.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/08/R1b_Tree_Chart.pngWell it depends on the R1b found in Romania/Serbia/Croatia and Latvia, if most of European R1b distribution found today is descended strictly from these non-PIE clades, or if European mainstream R1b is descended directly from Yamnaya after the wheel was invented and the horse domesticated.

In any case it's not exactly news that R1a and R1b are related Y-DNA haplogroups, I mean we knew that even before Haak et al. 2015, but it seems like R1a remained mainly and largely isolated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe for a long time, and only began expanding with the Indo-European migrations, whereas R1b became nomadic thousands of years before R1a.

So in other words, to summarize: pretty much all R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures, whereas only some R1b subclades might be.

Arch Hades
2017-05-11, 16:18
Iron gates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Gates), if it is what you are asking.

About PIE, it is all in this part

One version of the Steppe Hypothesis of Indo-European language origins suggests that Proto-Indo European languages developed in the steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas, and that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE, as part of the same incursions from the steppe that coincided with the decline of the tell settlements. If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic. This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.

An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family"

I think the steppe ancestry in the Balkans is enough to support the Kurgan Hypothesis. It's not like it takes a shit ton of ancestry for a language shift....Modern Anatolian Turks are only around 12-15% "Turkic".

not to mention the Greek language is on of the least Indo-European in terms of vocabulary of any IE languages. Perhaps the Thracian and Illyrian languages to the North of them were as well? They are not well documented like the ancient Greek languages.

Regarding Anatolia..we need actual confirmed IE speaking genomes..like that of the Hittites to get a better understanding.

Dohan.
2017-05-11, 16:20
R1b is a giant ydna. The R1b in Yamna is fairly close to L51 that is ancestral to P312 and most West European R1b clades

The missing link is L51 and has yet not be found in Ancient DNA. The Balkan Yamna of this study were disapointed as they were all females

Cromagnorse
2017-05-11, 16:20
Well it depends on the R1b found in Romania/Serbia/Croatia and Latvia, if most of European R1b distribution found today is descended strictly from these non-PIE clades, or if European mainstream R1b is descended directly from Yamnaya after the wheel was invented and the horse domesticated.
I find the first scenario highly unlikely given the significant degree of Yamnaya autosomal DNA in modern R1b Europeans, as well as the highly patriarchal and hierarchal culture of IE folks until long after their christianization, but yes, time will tell.





In any case it's not exactly news that R1a and R1b are related Y-DNA haplogroups, I mean we knew that even before Haak et al. 2015, but it seems like R1a remained mainly and largely isolated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe for a long time, and only began expanding with the Indo-European migrations, whereas R1b became nomadic thousands of years before R1a.

So in other words, to summarize: pretty much all R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures, whereas only some R1b subclades might be.
Agreed.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 16:22
Okay, so in other words, R1b had colonized large parts of Europe thousands of years before Indo-European migrations had begun.

R1b shoes up wherever EHG is found, what we can now say with the samples from Mesolithic and Neolithic Ukraine is that Eastern Europe was R1b's diversity hotspot (in all likeliness, R1b originated in Eastern Europe).


Well, yeah, R1b as a whole certainly isn't proto-Indo-European (Villabruna, Italy, in 12 000 BC f ex isn't Indo-European since IE didn't exist at the time, nor is the old, African R1b-V88). however, it seems to me that the major branches of modern European R1b arose around the time of the massive IE invasions of Europe ca 3000 BC. I interpret this as a population explosion and thus greater chance for mutations (due to an increase in the amount of "subjects", so to speak), following the Indo-European conquest of Europe and its women, as well as attainment of great wealth and status. Chicks dig badass conquerors and chieftains with well-filled coffers.

https://i2.wp.com/thompsonhunt.wanderingtrees.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/08/R1b_Tree_Chart.png

R1b basically is an EHG lineage, again it shows up wherever AG3-type ancestry shows up (including in Villabruna). Moreover, V88 was found in one of the samples from Mesolithic Ukraine, this means we now have pre-M73, L754*, V88, M269* and L23* from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.


So in other words, to summarize: pretty much all R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures, whereas only some R1b subclades might be.

Still no R1a in Yamnaya. If you want to go down that way, R1b is a much more convincing contender.

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 16:32
I find the first scenario highly unlikely given the significant degree of Yamnaya autosomal DNA in modern R1b Europeans, as well as the highly patriarchal and hierarchal culture of IE folks until long after their christianization, but yes, time will tell.Obviously Yamnaya autosomal DNA tied to both R1a and R1b, however, if there were R1b males roaming around and reproducing in Latvia and Serbia thousands of years before 3,000 BC, they could have spread that same Yamnaya autosomal DNA as they should have been descended from the pre-Yamnaya culture Pontic-Caspian steppe in the first place.

My point is, if something like R1b-L51+ is going to pop up in prehistoric Yårup (that's how Paul Joseph Watson pronounces Europe, lol), then it can't be concluded that R1b-L51+ was spread there through Yamnaya. Maybe some R1b-L51+ got their with expansions from Yamnaya, but it'll be difficult to conclude that Yamnaya was the main culture that spread R1b to western Europe. I mean clearly R1b had a head start on R1a.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 16:34
My point is, if something like R1b-L51+ is going to pop up in prehistoric Yårup (that's how Paul Joseph Watson pronounces Europe, lol), then it can't be concluded that R1b-L51+ was spread there through Yamnaya. Maybe some R1b-L51+ got their with expansions from Yamnaya, but it'll be difficult to conclude that Yamnaya was the main culture that spread R1b to western Europe. I mean clearly R1b had a head start on R1a.

None of the Iron Gates HGs are L51, let alone M269. Same thing for the Latvian HGs.

Arch Hades
2017-05-11, 16:39
http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut4png_aaqnqsn.png

All Balkan Bronze and Iron age samples aside from 1 guy I2163 are still predominately Neolithic Farmer.

Saetrus
2017-05-11, 16:56
Other than killing the Kurgan hypothesis the study has also shown there is a consistent pattern of large scale invasion from Anatolia into Europe beginning in the Chalcolithic, that you can see even in Bell Beaker/Bronze Age Germany. Southern Europeans descend mostly from these newcomers.
http://i.imgur.com/AWs0dLk.jpg
However it has also shown indoeuropean R1b did not get from Anatolia to Germany through the Balkans, so the gateway for indoeuropean R1b into Europe must have been Italy, which is consistent with the data on the history of R1b:
"R1b1a1a2a (R-L23)
R-L23* (R1b1a1a2a*) is now most commonly found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Mediterranean .
R1b1a1a2a1 (R-L51)
R-L51* (R1b1a1a2a1*) is now concentrated in a geographical cluster centred on southern France and northern Italy."

EliasAlucard
2017-05-11, 17:00
Other than killing the Kurgan hypothesis the study has also shownlol, this study has not killed the Kurgan theory. How did you get that idea from this study?

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 17:02
Other than killing the Kurgan hypothesis the study has also shown there is a consistent pattern of large scale invasion from Anatolia into Europe beginning in the Chalcolithic, that you can see even in Bell Beaker/Bronze Age Germany. Southern Europeans descend mostly from these newcomers.
http://i.imgur.com/AWs0dLk.jpg
However it has also shown indoeuropean R1b did not get from Anatolia to Germany through the Balkans, so the gateway for indoeuropean R1b into Europe must have been Italy, which is consistent with the data on the history of R1b:
"R1b1a1a2a (R-L23)
R-L23* (R1b1a1a2a*) is now most commonly found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Mediterranean .
R1b1a1a2a1 (R-L51)
R-L51* (R1b1a1a2a1*) is now concentrated in a geographical cluster centred on southern France and northern Italy."

How does samples from the Remedello Culture belonging to hg I2 fit into your hypothesis?

https://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/727/files/2015/06/Screenshot-11_06_2015-11_46_46.png

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3500GimbutasMKurganFig10-13.gif

Saetrus
2017-05-11, 17:15
How does samples from the Remedello Culture belonging to hg I2 fit into your hypothesis?

https://f.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/727/files/2015/06/Screenshot-11_06_2015-11_46_46.png

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3500GimbutasMKurganFig10-13.gif

Bell Beaker starts in Central Europe about the same time as Remedello dies in northern Italy so I don't see the problem.

Wojewoda
2017-05-11, 17:41
Bell Beaker starts in Central Europe about the same time as Remedello dies in northern Italy so I don't see the problem.

We have 3 Remedello (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml) sample dated to:

3483-3107 BC
2908-2578 BC
2134-1773 BC

The last one seems strange as Wikipedia describes Remedello time-span the following way:



Remedello I : 3400 [3] / 3200 BC - 2800 BC, or ancient Copper Age stage;
Remedello II: 2900 [3] / 2800 BC - 2400 BC, or full Copper Age stage.



Italian Peninsula's most affected areas are the Po Valley, in particular the area of Lake Garda, and Tuscany. The bell-shaped vases appear in these areas of central and northern Italy as "foreign elements" integrated in the pre-existing Remedello and Rinaldone cultures.[75]

Graves with Beaker artifacts have been discovered in the Brescia area, like that of Ca' di Marco (Fiesse), while in central Italy, bell-shaped glasses were found in the tomb of Fosso Conicchio (Viterbo).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Map_of_Italian_Bell_Beaker_sites.jpg



Your arrow on the PCA plot starts from around the place with Anatolian Neolithic samples. But during Bronze Age Europeans got less Neolthic not more.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 18:51
lol, this study has not killed the Kurgan theory. How did you get that idea from this study?

The more ancient DNA validates the Pontic-Caspian steppe as the PIE homeland, the crazier these folks get. Unbelievable.

ageladakos
2017-05-11, 19:52
I think the steppe ancestry in the Balkans is enough to support the Kurgan Hypothesis. It's not like it takes a shit ton of ancestry for a language shift....Modern Anatolian Turks are only around 12-15% "Turkic".

Kurgan hypothesis (Balkan to Anatolia):
"One version of the Steppe Hypothesis ... that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE"

Reasoning:
"if this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia."

Objection/Problem:
"However, our genetic data do not support this scenario."

Explanation of Objection:
"While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic."

Conclusion:
"This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.

Arch Hades
2017-05-11, 21:11
Kurgan hypothesis (Balkan to Anatolia):
"One version of the Steppe Hypothesis ... that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE"

Reasoning:
"if this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia."

Objection/Problem:
"However, our genetic data do not support this scenario."

Explanation of Objection:
"While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic."

Conclusion:
"This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.

Maybe if the Anatolian samples in this study were actual confirmed IE speakers like the Hittites i think they would have at least some point.

Silesian
2017-05-11, 22:31
R1b shows up wherever EHG is wound, what we can now say with the samples from Mesolithic and Neolithic Ukraine is that Eastern Europe was R1b's diversity hotspot (in all likeliness, R1b originated in Eastern Europe).
R1b basically is an EHG lineage, again it shows up wherever AG3-type ancestry shows up (including in Villabruna). Moreover, V88 was found in one of the samples from Mesolithic Ukraine, this means we now have pre-M73, L754*, V88, M269* and L23* from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
Still no R1a in Yamnaya. If you want to go down that way, R1b is a much more convincing contender.
Excellent point.



Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
So in other words, to summarize: pretty much all R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures, whereas only some R1b subclades might be. Good point.
R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures
R1b are solid European signatures

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-11, 22:33
R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures
R1b are solid European signatures

R1b-L23 also happens to be the best contender for a diagnostic IE marker so far. Eventually, I have very little doubt that R1a will show up in Yamnaya. What I'd like to see however is more data from Sredny Stog (which, IMO, is to be associated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans).

Silesian
2017-05-11, 22:37
I made a spreadsheet focusing on the Y-DNA and mtDNA...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Xxtc19_QTwWm58JlSuXQrDoFi_5aD_zNGoscqKgTm0/edit?usp=sharing
Since R1a-M417 clades are solid Indo-European signatures
R1b are solid European signatures can you make a specific European R1b calculator using only R1b samples for WHG/EHG/ANE and J for CHG-Caucasus+Iran use theJ Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. That should cover most European R1b populations.

Arch Hades
2017-05-12, 03:36
I really wish Dienekes was still blogging..would be interested to hear what he has to say. Though this study is pretty dissapointing for those of us of Greek heritage..it doesnt say much. Just that modern Greeks have a considerably more WHG and steppe then those Neolithic Peloponnesians.

Polako
2017-05-12, 11:13
I really wish Dienekes was still blogging..would be interested to hear what he has to say.

Why is that, do you like hearing excuses and bullshit?

Arch Hades
2017-05-12, 21:16
Why is that, do you like hearing excuses and bullshit?

I would like to see how he would try to rationalize a non steppe origin for PIE with this current data. Anyway i do think u are the better blogger.

Saetrus
2017-05-12, 21:37
We have 3 Remedello (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml) sample dated to:

3483-3107 BC
2908-2578 BC
2134-1773 BC

The last one seems strange as Wikipedia describes Remedello time-span the following way:





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Map_of_Italian_Bell_Beaker_sites.jpg



Your arrow on the PCA plot starts from around the place with Anatolian Neolithic samples. But during Bronze Age Europeans got less Neolthic not more.

The point was during the Chalcolithic and Bronze age a new axis of variation Anatolia-Central Europe emerges, here it is penetrating Central Europe:
http://i.imgur.com/iGW7BhU.png
By the way check out north Italian Bell Beaker, exactly the same as modern north Italians, can't say the same about any Corded Ware or Yamnaya people who are completely outside modern European variation, as the people of those cultures were replaced by actual indoeuropean speakers later.

thetick
2017-05-13, 00:30
I would like to see how he would try to rationalize a non steppe origin for PIE with this current data.

Don't you think that is exactly why he is no longer blogging ?

Arch Hades
2017-05-13, 04:23
As far as the Balkans is concered. It looked to have gone from entirely WHG in the Mesolithic.....to Entirely Neolithic Anatolian farmer in th Neolithic. A total replacement. Then we see some Iron Gates HG (basically WHG) and EHG make a small 10-15% comback in the Chalcolithic to mix with the Neolithic farmers. Finally in the Bronze age wee see the steppe/Yamnaya component make between a 10-30% impact...probably bringing IE languages.

Panthalika
2017-05-16, 17:45
Unexpected Slavic Acquisition (of previously Bell Beakers samples):


RISE568.SG RISE568, F0525, A01623, gr. 16 tooth 1 Shotgun AllentoftNature2015 .. 1200 600-900 CE Czech_Early_Slav.SG Czech_Early_Slav.SG .. Brandysek .. Czech Republic 50,19 14,16 F H44a .. .. .. 0,053 60816 minus All

RISE569.SG RISE569, F0527, A01643, gr. 35?' tooth 1 Shotgun AllentoftNature2015 .. 1235 660-770 calCE (1300±30 BP, Poz-84461) Czech_Early_Slav.SG Czech_Early_Slav.SG .. Brandysek .. Czech Republic 50,19 14,16 F H1af .. .. .. 0,98 708529 minus All

http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/40047/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx

So we have first early Slavic DNA samples that for a long time for many were indistinguishable from regular Bell Beakers.

Any thoughts?

Polako
2017-05-17, 00:22
Unexpected Slavic Acquisition (of previously Bell Beakers samples):



http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/40047/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx

So we have first early Slavic DNA samples that for a long time for many were indistinguishable from regular Bell Beakers.

Any thoughts?

That's incredible.

So I've had two early Slavs in my dataset for years now and didn't know.

Semitic Duwa
2017-05-17, 00:25
That's incredible.

So I've had two early Slavs in my dataset for years now and didn't know.

How do they relate to modern-day Slavs? Any significant amount of IBD sharing?

Polako
2017-05-17, 06:00
How do they relate to modern-day Slavs? Any significant amount of IBD sharing?

Can' t run an IBD or even a decent IBS test, because they're of fairly poor quality.

But they're almost identical to Czechs and western Poles, just with a bit more Yamnaya admix.

EliasAlucard
2017-05-17, 06:25
Unexpected Slavic Acquisition (of previously Bell Beakers samples):



http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/40047/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx

So we have first early Slavic DNA samples that for a long time for many were indistinguishable from regular Bell Beakers.

Any thoughts?This is basically an official Indo-European certification for the Bell Beaker culture.

Pioterus
2017-05-17, 06:33
This is basically an official Indo-European certification for the Bell Beaker culture.

O tempora, o mores - being Slavic/ Polish-like as Aryan certification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch) :p


Untermensch (German pronunciation: [ˈʔʊntɐˌmɛnʃ], underman, sub-man, subhuman; plural: Untermenschen) is a term that became infamous when the Nazis used it to describe non-Aryan "inferior people" often referred to as "the masses from the East", that is Jews, Roma, and Slavs (mainly ethnic Poles, Serbs, and later also Russians).[1][2] The term was also applied to most Blacks, and persons of color, with some particular exceptions.[3] Jewish people were to be exterminated[4] in the Holocaust. Roma, and the physically and mentally disabled were also to be exterminated.[5][6] According to the Generalplan Ost, the Slavic population of East-Central Europe was to be reduced in part through mass murder, with a majority expelled to Asia or used as slave labor in the Reich.

Wojewoda
2017-05-17, 07:32
RISE569 is on Gedmatch (http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html): kit number - F999954.

EDIT. I am playing with some oracles.


MDLP K11 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle

# Population Percent
1 WHG 44.04
2 Neolithic 35.42
3 EHG 13.33
4 Iran-Mesolithic 6.73

1 British_IronAge @ 10.063587
2 Hungary_BA @ 11.021915
3 Nordic_BA @ 11.599190
4 British_AngloSaxon @ 13.534083
5 British_Celtic @ 13.941154
6 Nordic_LBA @ 14.058687
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 14.412484
8 Nordic_IA @ 14.975628
9 Halberstadt_LBA @ 15.382959
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 15.654124

1 Esperstedt_MN + Hungary_HG + Hungary_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 3.093791
2 BerryAuBac_Mesolithic + Esperstedt_MN + Hungary_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 3.094875
3 Bichon_Azillian + Esperstedt_MN + Hungary_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 3.094875
4 Continenza_Paleolithic + Esperstedt_MN + Hungary_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 3.094875


MDLP K16

1 Neolithic 31.23
2 Steppe 30.88
3 NorthEastEuropean 25.69
4 Caucasian 11.51

1 Orcadian @ 7.510257
2 Scottish @ 7.526464
3 English @ 8.388092
4 English @ 8.433446
5 Icelandic @ 9.281964
6 Irish @ 9.475190
7 Irish @ 9.475506
8 Irish @ 9.520766
9 Norwegian @ 9.662998
10 Irish @ 10.325544

1 Basque + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.940540
2 Basque + Icelandic + Scottish + Scottish @ 5.050607
3 Basque + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 5.064466
4 Basque + Norwegian + Scottish + Scottish @ 5.149248



Eurogenes K13

1 Baltic 41.31
2 North_Atlantic 38.59
3 West_Med 16.76
4 West_Asian 3.35

1 Southwest_Finnish @ 11.443534
2 East_German @ 11.910702
3 Polish @ 12.091219
4 South_Polish @ 12.120141
5 North_Swedish @ 12.790241
6 Ukrainian @ 13.746746
7 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 14.124803
8 Austrian @ 14.941701
9 Estonian @ 15.314917
10 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.843870

1 Estonian + Estonian + French_Basque + Lithuanian @ 4.464203
2 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.521231
3 Estonian + French_Basque + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.563766
4 Estonian + French_Basque + Lithuanian + Polish @ 4.704009


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15

1 North_Sea 27.52
2 Baltic 27.12
3 Atlantic 23.44
4 West_Med 10.88
5 Eastern_Euro 10.39

1 East_German @ 11.133139
2 South_Polish @ 13.278678
3 Southwest_Finnish @ 13.292548
4 Polish @ 13.579938
5 Hungarian @ 13.662723
6 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 14.199297
7 Ukrainian @ 14.452647
8 Austrian @ 14.912444
9 Finnish @ 15.420706
10 Croatian @ 15.446886

1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_French + West_Norwegian @ 6.992556
2 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish @ 7.009462
3 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Southwest_French + Swedish @ 7.136938
4 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + West_Norwegian @ 7.138040


Eurogenes EUtest

1 SOUTH_BALTIC 26.40
2 ATLANTIC 21.27
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 18.49
4 EAST_EURO 17.09
5 WEST_MED 14.51
6 WEST_ASIAN 1.40

1 PL @ 12.150659
2 HU @ 13.222933
3 UA @ 13.515125
4 West_Russian @ 14.176595
5 AT @ 14.407971
6 Belorussian @ 15.809853
7 North_Swedish @ 15.842092
8 Ukrainian-Russian @ 15.858658
9 South_Finnish @ 15.860087
10 EE @ 15.917276

1 French_Basque + HU + LIT + LIT @ 5.145037
2 French_Basque + LIT + UA + UA @ 5.220492
3 French_Basque + LIT + PL + UA @ 5.228842
4 EE + French_Basque + LIT + UA @ 5.321196



Dodecad K12b

1 North_European 56.25
2 Atlantic_Med 31.21
3 Caucasus 7.88
4 Gedrosia 3.67

1 Swedish @ 8.046765
2 German @ 9.303470
3 Norwegian @ 10.385650
4 Hungarians @ 12.490071
5 Polish @ 13.702939
6 Dutch @ 14.970812
7 Mixed_Germanic @ 15.854803
8 British_Isles @ 17.475391
9 CEU30 @ 17.510115
10 English @ 17.747231

1 British_Isles + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + Valencia @ 1.318719
2 British_Isles + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + Spaniards @ 1.350107
3 Dutch + Lithuanians + Lithuanians + Valencia @ 1.365609
4 Cantabria + CEU30 + Lithuanians + Lithuanians @ 1.408937



Gedrosia K12

# Population Percent
1 SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 47.47
2 EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 36.48
3 CAUCASUS 14.88

1 Norwegian @ 9.943406
2 Russian @ 21.308474
3 Finnish @ 25.030258
4 Estonian @ 26.454046
5 Lithuanian @ 27.611694
6 Greek @ 32.131706
7 Sicilian @ 39.750290
8 Turks_Istanbul @ 45.303825
9 Turks_Balikesir @ 48.427383
10 Turks_Aydin @ 49.197365

1 Adygei + BA_Sintashta + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.814062
2 Adygei + Corded_Ware_LN + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.814062
3 Adygei + BA_Sintashta + Estonian + Sardinian @ 4.964745
4 Adygei + Corded_Ware_LN + Estonian + Sardinian @ 4.964745



puntDNAL K15

1 NE_European 68.17
2 Mediterranean 24.31
3 Caucasian 4.63
4 SW_Asian 2.52

1 Polish @ 4.432466
2 Swedish @ 7.095834
3 Belarusian @ 7.364680
4 Lithuanian @ 9.714427
5 Norwegian @ 9.762400
6 Russian @ 9.910791
7 Mordovian @ 10.268969
8 Karelian @ 10.777371
9 Finnish @ 10.972557
10 North_German @ 11.312195

1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Basque @ 3.153007
2 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Scottish @ 3.371730
3 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Scottish @ 3.445789
4 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 3.495647



Eurogenes EUtest and PuntDNAL K-15 tests seem to make most sense. ;)

EliasAlucard
2017-05-18, 18:30
RISE569 is on Gedmatch (http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html): kit number - F999954.

EDIT. I am playing with some oracles.


MDLP K11 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle

# Population Percent
1 WHG 44.04
2 Neolithic 35.42
3 EHG 13.33
4 Iran-Mesolithic 6.73

1 British_IronAge @ 10.063587
2 Hungary_BA @ 11.021915
3 Nordic_BA @ 11.599190
4 British_AngloSaxon @ 13.534083
5 British_Celtic @ 13.941154
6 Nordic_LBA @ 14.058687
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany @ 14.412484
8 Nordic_IA @ 14.975628
9 Halberstadt_LBA @ 15.382959
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech @ 15.654124He seems like a fairly even, mulatto-like mix between indigenous western Europeans and Neolithic farmers.

Wojewoda
2017-05-25, 22:27
More WHG R1 and R1b from Mesolithic South-Eastern Europe (Romania) + new samples from Mesolithic Spain:

"Paleogenomic Evidence for Multi-generational Mixing between Neolithic Farmers and Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers in the Lower Danube Basin", Gloria González-Fortes et al. (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)30559-6)



Sample ID Site Cal BP Age Range (2σ) [OxCal 4.2]a Genome Coverage Biol. Sex mtDNA hg. Y hg. Isotope Values (‰)b
δ13C δ15N C:N Ratioc
SC1_Meso Schela Cladovei (Romania) 8,814 ± 261 1.11× XY U5b2c R −18.5 15.0 3.2
SC2_Meso Schela Cladovei (Romania) − 2.83× XY U5a1c R1 −19.1 14.7 3.2
OC1_Meso Ostrovul Corbului (Romania) 8,704 ± 269 1.86× XY K1 + 16362 R1b −18.7 15.5 3.1
GB1_Eneo Gura Baciului (Romania) 5,377 ± 77 4.05× XX K1a4a NA −20.0 12.7 3.3
Chan_Meso Chan do Lindeiro (Spain) 9,131 ± 124 5.28× XX U5b NA −20.5 8.4 3.1
Canes1_Meso Canes (Spain) 7,115 ± 130 1.73× XX U5a2a NA −20.0 7.9 −

Polako
2017-05-26, 09:37
The Mycenaean/Minoan/Maikop paper is nigh.

Wojewoda
2017-05-26, 10:31
The Mycenaean/Minoan/Maikop paper is nigh.

Does the grouping of these cultures together mean something?

Polako
2017-05-26, 10:52
Does the grouping of these cultures together mean something?

Apparently they're in the new aDNA paper focusing on the Aegean and Anatolia.

EliasAlucard
2017-06-01, 15:48
Holy shit, R1b in the Balkans - and that old?





You guys reading this shit? :eek:If R1b made its way into Neolithic Spain, it shouldn't be a surprise that it reached the Balkans around the same time.

EliasAlucard
2017-07-06, 18:53
The genomic history of Southeastern Europe ---> The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017)

//mod