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Yuval Levental
2018-06-14, 22:41
In RGB color model, white is the product of additive color mixing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

Is it possible that White people also emerged due to race mixing?

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 02:29
No. :|

An Shigao
2018-06-15, 04:36
White people are, on average, a mixture of Western Hunter Gatherers, Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and Proto-Indo-European Yamnaya peoples in different varying admixtures depending on region. All three groups were significantly different from each other.

Pioterus
2018-06-15, 05:00
White people are, on average, a mixture of Western Hunter Gatherers, Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and Proto-Indo-European Yamnaya peoples in different varying admixtures depending on region. All three groups were significantly different from each other.

Yamnaya was an Anatolian + different HGs (Eastern and Caucasus?) and ANE and whatever else mixture by its own right. So basically modern Euroes are a mix of varying proportions of Neolithic-Levant / Anatolia, all sorts of HGs and ANE and potentially some additional "things" on some extreme peripheries.
But most of those groups, even though very different, were still still part of Euroasian cluster.

Yet the whiteness of skin is not actually effect of mixing but a sudden "explosion" of genes which, for possibly dietary reasons, started to be strongly selected for in "Northern darkness" and on agrarian diet (less omega fats, less fish in diet, less diversified diet). Folks who became white, went on to

voyager
2018-06-15, 07:35
No. :|

What about the scientifically proven Neanderthaloid element in Sapiens.
Is that not racial mixture, duh.

Pioterus
2018-06-15, 13:52
Yamnaya was an Anatolian + different HGs (Eastern and Caucasus?) and ANE and whatever else mixture by its own right. So basically modern Euroes are a mix of varying proportions of Neolithic-Levant / Anatolia, all sorts of HGs and ANE and potentially some additional "things" on some extreme peripheries.
But most of those groups, even though very different, were still still part of Euroasian cluster.

Yet the whiteness of skin is not actually effect of mixing but a sudden "explosion" of genes which, for possibly dietary reasons, started to be strongly selected for in "Northern darkness" and on agrarian diet (less omega fats, less fish in diet, less diversified diet). Folks who became white, went on to

Shiet, sorry, I did not finish the sentence.
I am busy...

Ok, folks who became white were most probably more effective in breeding and killing so they have dominated those who stayed swarthy and tried to live by agrarian shitty diet.

Basal Euroasian is a part of Levant Neolithic AFAIK. Sry, I know all the facts are there but I barely have time now to scratch my balls.

Diictodon
2018-06-15, 19:41
Define race? I prefer the term population. Makes more sense when taking into account cladistics.

Modern Europeans are Products of three ancestral components that make up their autosomal genome (auDNA). However you need to take into account the population dynamics of Ice age Eurasia to get a more wider perspective of what is happened and why modern population are what they are.

Using various molecular dating techniques, it estimated that Non-Africans (OOA) diverged from sub-saharan population bet 100,000-80,000 Kya, with mtDNA 'Eve' estimated to have lived between 140,000 and 200,000 kya and Y-DNA 'Adam' lived between 160,000 and 300,000 years ago. With the earliest migration out of Africa, there was a genetic bottleneck which was predicted due the close relationship between Eurasians and the lower genetic diversity Eurasians have compared to extant Sub-Saharans Africans. It was during this bottleneck, that scientist hypothesized that there was a breeding event that occur ed with a extinct neanderthal population that was present in the Near East. Since 2010, multiple Neanderthal ancient DNA (aDNA) was sequenced using new genetic techniques, and the results of these studies show that the Neanderthal population that early OOA population bred with most like had a genetic profile very similar to the 'Mezmaiskaya' Caucausus Neanderthals due to the FST distance and homology that Mexmaiskaya had to modern Human Neanderthal DNA. This makes sense to me, due the Caucasus proximity to the Near East. For more info: Here is the paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031459/
We know that this Neanderthal retrogressing occurred before Eurasians diverged into the post-Upper Paleolithic population diverged to from distinct clades due that fact that all modern OOA population have a similar range of Neanderthal admixture of 1-5%. There is one exempting to this rule however. An ancient population component present in modern West Eurasians (Europeans, MENA etc) called 'Basal Eurasians', which was interfered from statistical inferences, seen have a very low or even lack this Neanderthal admixture. Basal Eurasians also seem to cluster closer to SSA populations compared any other known OOA population groups despite lacking any SSA admixture, although BE is significantly closer to modern Eurasians than SSA. It believed by population geneticist such Iosif Lazaridis that basal Eurasians diverged quite early from the main 'Crown' group Eurasians, some estimated the divergence as early as 80,000, which if vindicated, could have massive ramifications for the current modern model of the Out of Africa migration hypothesis.

Anyways, Crown Eurasians probabrly migrated an diverged into seperation population groups around 50-45,000 kya based on the upper Paleolithic Ust-Ishim aDNA which was equally related to modern East Eurasians and Mesolithic and Paleolithic Europeans aDNA (but not to modern Europeans - I'll Explain that later). The Western UP Crown Eurasians form the Western Hunter Gatherer (WHG) and Ancestral North Eurasians (ANE) nodes while Eastern UP Crown Eurasians formed the Eastern Non-African nodes (also called 'Han-like, which is differentiated from 'Onge-like' ENA).

The first Anatomical modern human population (AMH) in Europe was the 'Western Hunter Gatherer', and they were the AMH population that had the longest historical presence on the continent. From the UP (around 39,00-37,000 kya) to Mesolithic/Early Neolithic (14,000-7,000 kya). WHG were the ones who encountered the Neanderthals in Europe, although Early OOA had Neanderthal admixture way before WHG had a presence in Europe. Any ho, the earliest known aDNA sequenced in Europe is the Oase_1 remain, which dates to between 37,000 - 42,000 kya. The fossil skull, although fractured, seem to not resemble any known modern Europeans phenotype. The Oase_1 aDNA gives off an even more weird result, it has an estimated 9% Neanderthal DNA. Only Nine generations back, Oase probably had an Neanderthal ancestor that bred with an AHM human. The aDNA's 12th chromosome was also 50% Neanderthal. Also, more importantly, Oase probably did not contribute to the ancestry of Mesolithic Europeans (WHG) or modern Europeans, so it is a pretty a dead end. However an fossil skull, Kostenski 14 (K14) aDNA was sequences and was found to resemble later WHG aDNA and formed a close cluster to Paleolithic and Mesolithic populations of Europe. However, K14 also give of weird results such as having a affinity to tribal South Asians (High in Onge-Like ENA) and Oceanian populations (also high in Onge-like ENA) despite having none of those component. Some geneticist believe that K14 had a pre-genetic drift affinity to other Eurasians that later WHG lacked, other geneticist beg to differ. But what matters is that K14 was probably ancestral to the Aurignacian WHG. In the Goyet cave in Belgium, Goyet Q116 showed a different genetic signature to a genetic cluster called the 'Vestonice' cluster WHG, as typified by aDNA from other WHG such as Kostenski 12 (K12), Puglicci 133, Kerms WA3 etc. The Vestonice WHG seemed have replace the previous Aurignacian WHG population that had some affinity to K14 and gave raise to the Gravettian Culture (34,000–26,000 years ago). However you have the reappearance of Aurignacian WHG population within the Magdelanian culture (19-14), which from the El-Miron Cluster WHG, as Typified by the El Mirona and GoyetQ-2 aDNA. El-Miron Cluster WHG share a close affinity to Goyet Q-116. Then you have the appearance of a different Cluster during the epipaleolithic (some time around 14,000 kya), called the Villabruna Cluster WHG, which shows close affinity to Near Eastern Population despite having no Near Eastern admixture (strange, I know right? I don't even know why). All Mesolithic WHG such Lochbour, KO1, La Bana etc decent from this cluster.

While all those nice stuff was happening in Ice age Europe, in the Near East a revolution was taking place, particularly in the Levant and the Fertile Cresent. Remember the Basal Eurasian population I mentioned before? Lazardis et 2014 ascertained that there was at least 40% intogression of Basal Eurasian in Levant Neolithic populations (Levant_N). There other 60% is described by many population geneticist as Unknown Hunter Gather (UHG), a ghost population that could be Western UP Crown Eurasian decedent like WHG. These people made up much of the Natufians DNA, and the Natufians were the first known agricultural population that played a role in the neolithic revolution. In the Zagros mountains, you had Iranian Neolithic populations (Iran_N) that had an different genetic profile to Levant Neolithic (Levant_N). However, the meeting place between those population was in Anatolia where you had an Anatolian Neolithic population (Anatolian_N) that also interacted with a Villabruna Cluster WHG (So Anatolian_N = Levent_N + Iran_N + WHG). This formed the Early European Farmers (or EEF) that spread throughout the European continent, mixing with the Native WHG to help form the Neolithic population. It is because of this ancient Basal Eurasian Component that modern Europeans don't have close affinity to upper paleolithic aDNA samples like Ust Ishim when compared to other Eurasians while Mesolithic European WHG do.

In the area surrounding lake Baikal, an aDNA was extract from a child's remain called MA1 was sequence and was closest known approximation to the hypothesized Ancient North Eurasian (ANE was inferred from statistical inferences just like Basal Eurasian). In Western Siberia, Afontova Gora 3 aDNA was sequences and analysed, an it showed close affinity to the MA1 aDNA sequences. They have a large presence in Native American populations, linking Amerindians to West Eurasians (Particularly to Northern and Eastern Europeans)

In the Caucasus, Kotias and Satsurblia aDNA anaylsis shows close relationship to Iran_N and even had 32% Introgression of Basal Eurasian, however, into showed a strong affinity to MA1 and AF3. These Caucasus aDNA shows a strong cline between ANE and Near Eastern Iranian Neolithic population and are called Caucasus Hunter Gathers. They are pretty much ANE-shifted Near Eastern population that diverged around 30,000-24,000 years ago. In Eastern Europe, WHG populations interacted with ANE population to form the Eastern Hunter Gatherers (EHG) and they seem to be a very robust people. They probably lived a way of life in the Mammoth steppe that died out long ago in Europe proper (mammoths went extinct in Europe by this time). The are typified by Keralia_HG (who probably admixed with WHG in Scandinavia to from SHG) and Samara_HG. CHG and EHG interacted with each other to form the Proto Indo Europeans such as the Yamnaya in the Eurasian Steppe north of the Caucasus Mountains.

These Indo European population migrated to Europe proper and interacted with the neolithic populations of euope (and even replaced some neolithic populations in Europe e.g. Britain), establishing the corded ware culture and bell beaker cultures, which had the phenotype associated with modern Europeans.

All this history sums up what White people are!
Semitic Duwa Correct Assessment no?

Diictodon
2018-06-15, 19:58
Shiet, sorry, I did not finish the sentence.
I am busy...

Ok, folks who became white were most probably more effective in breeding and killing so they have dominated those who stayed swarthy and tried to live by agrarian shitty diet.

Basal Euroasian is a part of Levant Neolithic AFAIK. Sry, I know all the facts are there but I barely have time now to scratch my balls.

Correct, Basal Eurasian is part of Levant Neolithic (around 44% i believe)

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 20:01
White people are, on average, a mixture of Western Hunter Gatherers, Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and Proto-Indo-European Yamnaya peoples in different varying admixtures depending on region. All three groups were significantly different from each other.


But they are not different races. They are all White.

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 20:07
What about the scientifically proven Neanderthaloid element in Sapiens.
Is that not racial mixture, duh.

Neanderthal is not a race. Duh yourself.

Diictodon
2018-06-15, 20:19
But they are not different races. They are all White.

I don't really use the term "races" alot because I don't like the term (it politically loaded and not really definable) , however, they are quite distant population. As David Reich put it in one of his lecture, the distance between these population groups (with exception to the Yamnaya) is comparable to the Fst distance between a Han Chinese and an English man. So make of it what you will

WitoldPilecki
2018-06-15, 20:30
There's probably 8 sub-races mixed into Europeans. (Most of them Caucasian, but some potentially Asiatic, or East African)

My guesses are the following.

1.) WHG (I2a haplogroup / Baltic, and North Sea component like Balkan paternally, or Baltid's maternally)

2.) Villabruna (I1a haplogroup / Atlantic component like Irish maternally, and Swedes paternally)

3.) ENF ( J2 + G Haplogroups / Western Mediterranean types like Basque / Sardinians)

4.) Semitic ( J1 haplogroup / Eastern Mediterranean type like Greeks but more so Lebanese)

5.) ANE ( R1a + R1b haplogroup like Slavo-Celts paternally, and Lithuanian - Siberian maternally)

6.) Finno-Ugric (N haplogroup / Siberian genetic components like Finns)

7.) Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (G, and J haplogroups like Caucasus people)

8.) Red Sea (E1b1b haplogroup, like Ethiopian peoples)

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 20:31
I don't really use the term "races" alot because I don't like the term (it politically loaded and not really definable) , however, they are quite distant population. As David Reich put it in one of his lecture, the distance between these population groups (with exception to the Yamnaya) is comparable to the Fst distance between a Han Chinese and an English man. So make of it what you will

The OP used the term race/race-mixing. It's an absurd question. I usually would ignore that type of question but I was online and bored, so I replied "No".

WitoldPilecki
2018-06-15, 20:35
No. :|

White people couldn't possibly be very pure.

Look at everything from a Finn to a Greek, it can't possibly be the same people even if there's mixing none the less.

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 20:45
White people couldn't possibly be very pure.

Look at everything from a Finn to a Greek, it can't possibly be the same people even if there's mixing none the less.


Finns and Greeks and everyone in between are all White people.
There are different ethnic groups, but they are all of the same race.

voyager
2018-06-15, 22:39
Neanderthal is not a race. Duh yourself.

OK.
It's a separate species then.
So whites are mixed with non-humans.
Of course rednecks like you would prefer bestiality to miscegenation.

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-15, 23:13
OK.
It's a separate species then.
So whites are mixed with non-humans.
Of course rednecks like you would prefer bestiality to miscegenation.

Whites are not the only race that have Neanderthal. American Indians have it. Asians have it. Oceanians have it. Everyone except pure Sub Saharan Africans has it.

I'm not a redneck. I'm a Native New Yorker living in Florida.

EliasAlucard
2018-06-16, 02:48
But they are not different races. They are all White.It's true that they were not different races, but I'm not sure all those 3-4 ancestral populations that eventually became Europeans, would qualify as white if they lived today.

In any case, none of them had as great genetic distance to one another, as modern racial groups do, so the answer to the topic question is no. But yes, Europeans are the product of 3-4 (or more) different ethnic groups that mixed in the prehistorical era. It's important to understand, that while these 3-4 populations were not different races, their genetic distance to one another was much greater than the genetic distance modern European ethnic groups have to one another.

voyager
2018-06-16, 08:07
Whites are not the only race that have Neanderthal. American Indians have it. Asians have it. Oceanians have it. Everyone except pure Sub Saharan Africans has it.

I'm not a redneck. I'm a Native New Yorker living in Florida.

Your own lips have said it!
The point I'm making is that no humans are "pure" anything.

BTW If you are a White American with ancestors who lived in the country in the 17th or 18th century then you are definitely not "pure anything" as you probably will have some trace of First Nations or Subsaharan African mixture (especially in the South).

Pioterus
2018-06-16, 14:45
There's probably 8 sub-races mixed into Europeans. (Most of them Caucasian, but some potentially Asiatic, or East African)

My guesses are the following.

1.) WHG (I2a haplogroup / Baltic, and North Sea component like Balkan paternally, or Baltid's maternally)

2.) Villabruna (I1a haplogroup / Atlantic component like Irish maternally, and Swedes paternally)

3.) ENF ( J2 + G Haplogroups / Western Mediterranean types like Basque / Sardinians)

4.) Semitic ( J1 haplogroup / Eastern Mediterranean type like Greeks but more so Lebanese)

5.) ANE ( R1a + R1b haplogroup like Slavo-Celts paternally, and Lithuanian - Siberian maternally)

6.) Finno-Ugric (N haplogroup / Siberian genetic components like Finns)

7.) Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (G, and J haplogroups like Caucasus people)

8.) Red Sea (E1b1b haplogroup, like Ethiopian peoples)

Could you please elaborate on the components? What do you mean by them? I can't grasp the idea here (this maternal/ paternal split caught me off guard).

Yuval Levental
2018-06-16, 15:24
But they are not different races. They are all White.

Anatolian Neolithic Farmers probably looked like modern Lebanese.

Do they look White to you?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGN2uWS2iKs

Maybe some of them look White, but they don't act White for sure!

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-16, 16:38
Anatolian Neolithic Farmers probably looked like modern Lebanese.

Do they look White to you?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGN2uWS2iKs



Maybe some of them look White, but they don't act White for sure!


Lebanese are not Black or Asian. They are Caucasian/White.

By today's US government standards Middle Eastern and even India Indians are considered Caucasian/White.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-16, 16:40
Lebanese are not Black or Asian. They are Caucasian/White.

South Asians (I mean Indians, Pakistanis) are also White/Caucasian.

Why do we even call them South Asians and not e.g. South Whites?

voyager
2018-06-16, 16:43
Anatolian Neolithic Farmers probably looked like modern Lebanese.

Do they look White to you?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGN2uWS2iKs

Maybe some of them look White, but they don't act White for sure!

What does "acting white" even mean?

~Elizabeth~
2018-06-16, 16:44
South Asians (I mean Indians, Pakistanis) are also White/Caucasian.

Why do we even call them South Asians and not e.g. South Whites?

Russians are in Asia too but they are Caucasian/White.

I consider Southeast Asians Asian and Far East Asians Asians.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-16, 17:09
Russians are in Asia too but they are Caucasian/White.

Because White Russians originated in Europe and expanded into Asia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia

But there are also Non-White minorities in Russia, just like in the U.S.

NixYO
2018-06-16, 19:29
Physical Anthropology → General Genetics Discussion: Europe

/mod

Yuval Levental
2018-06-16, 19:39
What does "acting white" even mean?

It means not acting like POCs.

ApostateAbe
2018-06-16, 20:49
In RGB color model, white is the product of additive color mixing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

Is it possible that White people also emerged due to race mixing?
Every race is mixed to some degree, but skin color mixture output would follow the subtractive color model (like mixing paints), not the additive color model (like mixing light beams).

- - - Updated - - -

Whiter skin follows from adaptation for greater Vitamin D production, whereas darker skin follows from adaptation for protecting against sun burns and skin cancer.

voyager
2018-06-16, 22:32
It means not acting like POCs.

If you think whites are always well-behaved you haven't experienced the British binge drinking culture.

StarDS9
2018-06-17, 00:19
ME people are not white, only some can look white but majority do not. Even my skin tone is different to whites who are pale pinkish, mine is yellowish pale and looks dark under ambient light. Also ME people even have different skin type it's much thicker where as Europeans have much thinner skin.

I wonder if light skin genes in ME people evolved independent from Europeans? is it even possible.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-17, 21:54
ME people are not white, only some can look white but majority do not. Even my skin tone is different to whites who are pale pinkish, mine is yellowish pale and looks dark under ambient light. Also ME people even have different skin type it's much thicker where as Europeans have much thinner skin.

I wonder if light skin genes in ME people evolved independent from Europeans? is it even possible.

They are brown Whites. Not all Whites are white. There is a difference between brown Whites and POCs.

Jade
2018-06-20, 19:53
South Asians (I mean Indians, Pakistanis) are also White/Caucasian.

Why do we even call them South Asians and not e.g. South Whites?

South Asians might be considered broadly Caucasoid, but definitely not white.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-22, 20:05
Every race is mixed to some degree, but skin color mixture output would follow the subtractive color model (like mixing paints), not the additive color model (like mixing light beams).

Are South African Cape Coloureds attractive thanks to being so race-mixed?:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=49946&p=1347220&viewfull=1#post1347220

They are one of the most race-mixed populations on Earth:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/04/cape1.png

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/04/cape1.png

Strong Flower
2018-06-22, 22:32
South Asians might be considered broadly Caucasoid, but definitely not white.

I think were forgetting the significant Australoid & Paleo-Mongoloid blend among South Asians. Definitely NOT white or Caucasoid.

DragonRouge
2018-06-23, 00:09
Politics created white people and politics determines who is admitted to the exclusive club.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-23, 01:30
Politics created white people and politics determines who is admitted to the exclusive club.

This is something new!

I've always thought it was rs16891982 in SLC45A2 and rs1426654 in SLC24A5 that created white people:

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654

You've got to message SNP-edia ASAP and inform them that they got it all wrong and it was just politics.

Jade
2018-06-23, 14:24
I think were forgetting the significant Australoid & Paleo-Mongoloid blend among South Asians. Definitely NOT white or Caucasoid.
That's why I said "broadly" Caucasoid, not proper full Caucasoid like Europeans.
Despite the non-Caucasoid influences, overall South Asians still do cluster closer to Caucasoids on a global scale.
https://i2.wp.com/www.harappadna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/ref2_K12_fst_dend.png

Silesian
2018-06-23, 16:32
There's probably 8 sub-races mixed into Europeans. (Most of them Caucasian, but some potentially Asiatic, or East African)

My guesses are the following.

1.) WHG (I2a haplogroup / Baltic, and North Sea component like Balkan paternally, or Baltid's maternally)

2.) Villabruna (I1a haplogroup / Atlantic component like Irish maternally, and Swedes paternally)

3.) ENF ( J2 + G Haplogroups / Western Mediterranean types like Basque / Sardinians)

4.) Semitic ( J1 haplogroup / Eastern Mediterranean type like Greeks but more so Lebanese)

5.) ANE ( R1a + R1b haplogroup like Slavo-Celts paternally, and Lithuanian - Siberian maternally)

6.) Finno-Ugric (N haplogroup / Siberian genetic components like Finns)

7.) Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (G, and J haplogroups like Caucasus people)

8.) Red Sea (E1b1b haplogroup, like Ethiopian peoples)

Politics versus Evolution, defining biological ancestry

Of all the groups above, ydna R1a and R1b share common ancestor ydna R. Ydna I1 and I2 share a common ancestor with ydna J1 and J2 ydna IJ.

Tens of thousands of years of evolution made Villabruna R1b[WHG] and Yamnaya R1b distinct from other groups.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2yv8imr.jpg
Thousands of years of evolution process made Yamnaya R1b and Corded Ware R1a [both derived from ynda R] cluster close to EHG on pca:)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CuyvqGGHnqQ/VNxUuaBsnYI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/ZJLiJXASI_U/s1600/2.jpg

Yuval Levental
2018-06-23, 16:32
What does "acting white" even mean?

The way they dance in that video, it is non-white. The music is also non-white.

voyager
2018-06-23, 16:54
The way they dance in that video, it is non-white. The music is also non-white.

You are a real racist moron for a Jewish person.

Yuval Levental
2018-06-23, 18:27
Are the heroic Serbs considered White? - https://jtf.org/forum/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ7oulIOdEc