Soy and its effects on testosterone (split) //mod

[Azvarohi]

I live just fine.;) I just don't miss any of it. I ate faux meat/dairy products for a while but found the typical vegan diet to be lacking in variety (soy being a overrepresented staple). I've stopped that for a while now.

Also soy decreases testosterone levels, which isn't good especially for individuals who train. IMO I think soy is one of the crappiest protein you can base your protein intake on, but that said it is better than no protein at all.

[CAONABO]

I'd like to ask the male posters who consume alot of soy products, what is their take on its affect on male testosterone? IMHO, soy is greatly overated.
Don't forget Anodynes thread on xenoestrogens, we're no longer living in a pristine world and we're under chemical attack from various fronts.

[EiCibaeño]

Also soy decreases testosterone levels, which isn't good especially for individuals who train. IMO I think soy is one of the crappiest protein you can base your protein intake on, but that said it is better than no protein at all.

I've seen contradictory studies and there seems no clear conclusion on this. I say better to avoid the stuff anyway. Not only for your reasons, but because vegans tend to make it their one staple and have a less diverse diet.

I mentioned groats before. They are equivalent to soy in protein value, so just go with that. I make at least 2 monster smoothies a day with dark greens such as kale and spinach. The trick with my diet is eating many meals throughout the day (roughly six) to obtain the proper amount of protein and calories from foodstuffs that typically have lower amounts of both. It sucks when I don't prepare properly and skip a meal, then I have to have a contingency meal for that.

[EliasAlucard]

I'd like to ask the male posters who consume alot of soy products, what is their take on its affect on male testosterone? IMHO, soy is greatly overated.I have a very high natural testosterone production level, so it doesn't bother me. In fact, lowering my testosterone production would probably do me some good.


Don't forget Anodynes thread on xenoestrogens, we're no longer living in a pristine world and we're under chemical attack from various fronts.Care to link me to that thread?

[Azvarohi]

I'd like to ask the male posters who consume alot of soy products, what is their take on its affect on male testosterone?

Well, one has to take into consideration that lowered testosterone levels might not be showing up in individuals either physically or psychologically, since it is different from laboratory studies where you have the precise data.

However, a protein intake based on protein from diary products and fermentated EAA (Amino Acids) will always give the optimal protein synthesis. That does not mean that it is bad to intake soy, I do it sometimes myself, but I base my main protein intake from diary products, egg and chicken.

It's like playing in divisoon 4 football compared to division 5 football, you might not feel any specific difference, but there is a difference.

[CAONABO]

I've seen contradictory studies and there seems no clear conclusion on this. I say better to avoid the stuff anyway. Not only for your reasons, but because vegans tend to make it their one staple and have a less diverse diet.

I mentioned groats before. They are equivalent to soy in protein value, so just go with that. I make at least 2 monster smoothies a day with dark greens such as kale and spinach. The trick with my diet is eating many meals throughout the day (roughly six) to obtain the proper amount of protein and calories from foodstuffs that typically have lower amounts of both. It sucks when I don't prepare properly and skip a meal, then I have to have a contingency meal for that.

Yeah, we definitely have to be alot more disciplined when we eat various small meals. The modern day lifestyle is setup so that if you go with the flow, you will be a fat ass. Just take a look around, most people eating on the run, in their cars, etc. And whats the easiest and fastest thing to eat? Yep. Future artery clogging/heart attack low testosterone meals.

[Azvarohi]

I've seen contradictory studies and there seems no clear conclusion on this.

I've only seen studies that uses soy in combination with other protein products that show what you are refering to. Soy protein (especially powder/supplement) possibly significantly decreases testosterone in healthy individuals.


Soy protein powder decreases testosterone levels in healthy patients, which is reversible upon removal of SPP from the diet.

Journal of Clinical Oncology, 2004 ASCO Annual Meeting Proceedings (Post-Meeting Edition). Vol 22, No 14S (July 15 Supplement), 2004: 4611


We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk.

J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):134S-139S. Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.


Net protein synthesis was greater in the CAPM group than in the SOPM group. Urea synthesis rates decreased during consumption of both enteral meals, but the decrease tended to be greater in the subjects that consumed CAPM. Absolute splanchnic extraction of leucine was higher in the subjects that consumed CAPM vs. those that consumed SOPM. In conclusion, a significantly larger portion of soy protein is degraded to urea, whereas casein protein likely contributes to splanchnic utilization (probably protein synthesis) to a greater extent. The biological value of soy protein must be considered inferior to that of casein protein in humans.

J Nutr. 2005 May;135(5):1080-7. Casein and soy protein meals differentially affect whole-body and splanchnic protein metabolism in healthy humans.

Liquorice is supposedly much worse on that.

[EiCibaeño]

Yeah, we definitely have to be alot more disciplined when we eat various small meals. The modern day lifestyle is setup so that if you go with the flow, you will be a fat ass. Just take a look around, most people eating on the run, in their cars, etc. And whats the easiest and fastest thing to eat? Yep. Future artery clogging/heart attack low testosterone meals.

While I average it at 6 meals and I tend to space them at certain distances through the day, in reality I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full (naturally full not gut busting). Hungry also takes on a different meaning. During the day I'm just hungry for food, but if by night I haven't had enough calories I begin to feel caloric hunger which I never felt until progressing my diet to where it is now. My stomach won't even grumble but I'll know I need to eat some more especially after working out.

[CAONABO]

I have a very high natural testosterone production level, so it doesn't bother me. In fact, lowering my testosterone production would probably do me some good.

Care to link me to that thread?

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=4911

I recall doing a college paper on this I titled 'The Feminization of Modern Man'.
Don't forget that science, due to its very nature, always lags behind on many things. Fish oil is now recommended by mainstream Doctors here, years ago it would've been dismissed as health nut quackery. Before the scientific community makes a definitive statment, they'd like a slew of peer reviewed/placeba controlled published studies.

---------- Post added 2010-06-01 at 18:59 ----------


I've only seen studies that uses soy in combination with other protein products that show what you are refering to. Soy protein (especially powder/supplement) possibly significantly decreases testosterone in healthy individuals.



Journal of Clinical Oncology, 2004 ASCO Annual Meeting Proceedings (Post-Meeting Edition). Vol 22, No 14S (July 15 Supplement), 2004: 4611



J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):134S-139S. Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.



J Nutr. 2005 May;135(5):1080-7. Casein and soy protein meals differentially affect whole-body and splanchnic protein metabolism in healthy humans.

Liquorice is supposedly much worse on that.

Among the athletic community, merely listing soy on a protein product will almost guarantee poor sales.

[EliasAlucard]

I recall doing a college paper on this I titled 'The Feminization of Modern Man'.I'ts very difficult to feminise me, especially with only Soy.


Among the athletic community, merely listing soy on a protein product will almost guarantee poor sales.Why?

[Azvarohi]

[Fish oil is now recommended by mainstream Doctors here, years ago it would've been dismissed as health nut quackery.

That is a very good example of what I said above, that there is a difference of what individuals "feel" and what studies say. If you feel good eating loads of soy, then eat it. If you want to discuss the science behind "optimal protein intake" then that is another story.

I remember the fat war in the 90s, when fat was a no-no (especially saturated fat), despite fat being a essential nutrition and that trans fat often was lumped together and was really the "criminal" behind it all.

[tweet]

Maybe I should start cooking more soy products for my boyfriend, cos lately I am getting too tired for all that freaky stuff


I'ts very difficult to feminise me, especially with only Soy.


Please dont feminise Elias, this place will never be the same :D

[CAONABO]

I'ts very difficult to feminise me, especially with only Soy.

Why?

Don't forget it's not just soy. There are other factors that may or may not contribute such as the aforementioned xenoestrogens which are very real. This is why alot of the tupperware type materials are now listing thier products 'BPA free'.
And another fact, again that may or may not be related is this:
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/iju/vol2n1/sperm.xml
The Internet Journal of Urology™ ISSN: 1528-8390

"The sperm count has been decreasing steadily for many years in Western industrialised countries: Is there an endocrine basis for this decrease?
There have been a number of studies over the past 15-20 years (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10), which suggest that sperm counts in man are on the decline. Since these changes are recent and appear to have occurred internationally, it has been presumed that they reflect adverse effects of environmental or lifestyle factors on the male rather than, for example, genetic changes in susceptibility. If the decrease in sperm counts were to continue at the rate that it is then in a few years we will witness widespread male infertility. To date it remains unknown why this is happening and the available preventative measures, which can be taken to avoid a continuation of this trend, are not common knowledge."

^
Thus the saying 'You are half the man your grandfather was"


To answer you other question, soy has garnered a bad reputation for quite some time now in the human performance circles (stronger, bigger, faster, etc.) due to its influence on testosterone. This is not something new, it's been going on for awhile.

[Azvarohi]

To answer you other question, soy has garnered a bad reputation for quite some time now in the human performance circles (stronger, bigger, faster, etc.) due to its influence on testosterone. This is not something new, it's been going on for awhile.

I think once they get hamp protein supplements and rice protein supplements to a decent price on the market it will be very popular amongst vegans. Even if the biological value might not be able to compete with whey, meat, egg etc it will still be alot better than soy.

[EiCibaeño]

I think once they get hamp protein supplements and rice protein supplements to a decent price on the market it will be very popular amongst vegans. Even if the biological value might not be able to compete with whey, meat, egg etc it will still be alot better than soy.

I've tried hemp, rice, and spirulina. Out of the 3 I prefer spirulina. All are definitely better than soy, though.

[CAONABO]

I think once they get hamp protein supplements and rice protein supplements to a decent price on the market it will be very popular amongst vegans. Even if the biological value might not be able to compete with whey, meat, egg etc it will still be alot better than soy.

Yep, thats another reason. Soy's BV isn't better than whey which is currently seen as the king and then casein.

[Ozrage]

How about Quorn? That's a little better than soy no? Hope so, that quorn stuff taste great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

[Azvarohi]

It's mycoprotein and small amounts of egg protein, so yes it is better.

[hero]

Speaking of estrogen in food.... wild yams are also a food that are known to contain estrogen-like components. My aunt always used to say that when she was wanting to get pregnant, she'd always eat pepper soup and yam. Yams are a staple crop in Nigeria. Everybody eats it.

[rice]

also, another reason why you don't want to take soy protein if you're looking to gain weight (the right kind of weight). soy protein is very hard for your body to digest, so when drink a soy shake, not all of it will be available right away for your body to utilize and repair the damage in the muscle microstructure after working out.

in my knowledge (this is from my weightlifting buddies), the best kind of protein to take after working out is whey. protein from egg whites are also excellent.

[JaM]

I would imagine some enzyme in the mix would do the trick.

[CAONABO]

I think one of the posters here should volunteer and self-experiment by consuming soy nuts, 1 quart of soy milk a day, tofu, etc. and report back

[EiCibaeño]

I think one of the posters here should volunteer and self-experiment by consuming soy nuts, 1 quart of soy milk a day, tofu, etc. and report back

This was me up until last year. I put on weight like I wanted but it wasn't all muscle, felt bogged down all the time like when I consumed dairy, and generally had terrible bowel movements (TMI!).:lol:

I don't think it made me feminized though, all the weight lifting made me somewhat aggressive.

[hero]

in my knowledge (this is from my weightlifting buddies), the best kind of protein to take after working out is whey. protein from egg whites are also excellent.

Whey protein is a good alternative, but nothing beats lean meat and eggs! :thumbsup:
Also, whey is a milk product so those who are lactose intolerant or lactase deficient may experience some unwanted effects after consuming it. I've known many who say it gives em gas or 'bubbleguts' :lol:

[rice]

Also, whey is a milk product so those who are lactose intolerant or lactase deficient may experience some unwanted effects after consuming it. I've known many who say it gives em gas or 'bubbleguts' :lol:




I think casein is the protein in milk that causes the most problems for people, since it is a major allergen.

Not sure about the connection between whey and lactose intolerance, though. whey is a protein, which digested by peptidases in the body, while lactose is a sugar that is digested by lactases. Lactose intolerance is caused by a deficiency in lactase.

lactose intolerant people can get purified whey protein, which is free of lactose, and is available in powder form at many supermarkets. my personal favorite is the optimum nutrition gold standard whey protein.

[hero]

I think casein is the protein in milk that causes the most problems for people, since it is a major allergen.

Not sure about the connection between whey and lactose intolerance, though. whey is a protein, which digested by peptidases in the body, while lactose is a sugar that is digested by lactases. Lactose intolerance is caused by a deficiency in lactase.

lactose intolerant people can get purified whey protein, which is free of lactose, and is available in powder form at many supermarkets. my personal favorite is the optimum nutrition gold standard whey protein.

Yeah that's it. The casein... I was thinking it was the lactose. Though I think some of the brands add milk into theirs for taste (at least they used to). I drink Optimum as well, but I can only do the Double Chocolate flavor (I mix mine with milk+water so it tastes like chocolate milk). I bought the Fruit Punch flavor before.... :sick: it's still sittin in my pantry (nastiest fruit punch I ever tasted, lol). I was looking at my Optimum jar and it says they actually add lactate to help with the digestion.

Regarding lactose intolerance, I was told that most people are just lactate deficient; they just don't produce enough lactate. Lactose intolerance = lactose allergy = body rejects it completely like any allergen. Explains why people's reactions differ.

[Azvarohi]

Whey has a disadvantage in that it is a very fast protein (which on the other hand makes it a perfect muscle building protein), which makes that you can't intake it in any large amounts at one time. If you do only a little part of it is picked up, the rest is literary crapped out. Other proteins (meat, fish, egg, kasein etc) has the advantage that what isn't picked up by the muscles oxidize and is kept in your body which is perfect for recovery. Many bodybuilders/weightlifters/players eat large amount of kasein as last meal before bed (with cottage cheese being the most popular), because it decreases the loss of muscles in your body during sleep.

[Scoket]

I have drunken soy milk for 20+ years. At least a glass a day. Generally more, around a litre (2 pints?).

I havent got a low sex drive, no shrunken nuts, no nail painting tendencies, no baby face ect.

Started working out properly recently and put on 25lbs since december. Pretty much no fat. Dont really see how not taking soy would have made things much better.

[Azvarohi]

I havent got a low sex drive, no shrunken nuts, no nail painting tendencies, no baby face ect.

Lowered testosterone levels does not shrinks your nuts nor lower your sex drive.


Dont really see how not taking soy would have made things much better.


Don't think for a second that the majority of the 25 lbs you gain is muscle mass, it is mostly lean mass and fat. However, with better protein you would have gain a larger percentage of muscle of that 25 lbs, if you have that as your goal and keep your diet + training. Do you think you become a better football player in division 4 league or in Serie A if you get as much playing time in both leagues?

Also what I have written is a protein intake with soy as a main base, one litre gives about 30-40 grams of protein, and is not a main base unless your weight is very low.