Happy 98th birthday for Finlandswedishnes!

[Karhunkynsi]

This year, 2010, Finlandswedishnes marks the 98th birthday! 2 more years and the concept of Finlandswedishnes will be 100 years old! Gongratulations!

[Zupan]

Ursprung [redigera]
Finlands svenska befolkning har sina rötter mycket långt tillbaka i tiden. Hur långt tillbaka är en omdiskuterad fråga. Några arkeologer har påstått att man kan visa en obruten bosättning åtminstone sedan järnåldern i Österbotten (bl a Pörnullbacken i Vörå) och Åland.[24]
På arkeologiska grunder kan man naturligtvis inte säga om järnåldersfolket i Österbotten talade svenska, finska eller samiska, men om bosättning har varit obruten på en plats, där det på 1500-talet bevisligen talades svenska, är det ett indicium.[25] Fynden uppvisar influenser både västerifrån och österifrån. Dokumenterat finns att allmoge från Sverige flyttade till Finland i större antal från 1200- och 1300-talet.[26]

98 years.. Whatever makes your epicanthic fold asian sleep better at night. I have more;
Under 1800-talet skedde ett nationellt uppvaknande i Finland i nationalromantikens tecken. Det stöddes av den ryska centralmakten av pragmatiska skäl, som en säkerhetspolitisk åtgärd för att motverka inflytande från Sverige, och fick ny kraft av den våg av nationalism som svepte över Europa under den senare hälften av 1800-talet. Som en del av detta, och under inflytande av den tyska nationalromantikens idé om nationalspråket, uppstod en kraftig rörelse för att upphöja finskan till ett språk användbart i högre utbildning, forskning och statsförvaltning. Tanken att staten skulle administreras på ett språk som var helt främmande för nära 90% av befolkningen blev otidsenlig. Många inflytelserika svenskspråkiga familjer lärde sig finska, förfinskade sina namn, och bytte – med en icke föraktlig ansträngning – sitt dagliga språk till finska. Somliga såg det som ödesbestämt att svenskan i Finland så småningom skulle dö ut.

:lol: azn pr1de

[Karhunkynsi]

98 years.. Whatever makes your epicanthic fold asian.

What are you arguing against this time ? Concept of Finlandswedishness was invented by Rolf Pipping, year 1912. It took another decade for the concept to get any success.

Before that Swedophone Finns called themselves just as Swedophone Finns or just Finns. Even after the concept of Finlandswedishness was introduced to the public, by Rolf Pipping, year 1912, many Swedophone Finns found it completely stupid and didnt want to have anything to do with it.

There are Swedophone Finns today who dont want to be called as Finlandswedes.

[Zupan]

according to the finns haha :lol: close thread..

[Karhunkynsi]

according to the finns haha :lol: close thread..

Listen neoswede. All you have to do is google Rolf+Pipping+finlandsvensk..

1. Open you browser
2. Type www.google.com into address field
3. type: Rolf Pipping Finlandsvensk into search filed
4. Click search-button

Do you think you can do that ?

[Zupan]

Haha why so mad mr.uzbek?? I provided facts.. Chill now be glad your country has had an IE presence longer than 98 years!

[Karhunkynsi]

I provided facts..

Your facts were not related to topic at all. It's propably because you dont really understand what you read.

[Zupan]

Hehe you got mad anyhow.. Happy 700+ year birthday to the swedes in Finland!

[Karhunkynsi]

Hehe you got mad anyhow..

I'm not mad. I made a congratulations thread !

[Zupan]

well how many years? 98 + 703? Or?

[Karhunkynsi]

well how many years? 98 + 703? Or?

No, we follow the principles of logick. Finlandswedishness will turn 98 yrs old this year! Before that there was no such thing.

[Zupan]

No, we follow the principles of logick. Finlandswedishness will turn 98 yrs old this year! Before that there was no such thing.

According to the finns yes.

[Karhunkynsi]

According to the finns yes.

No, according to worlds first Finlandswede, Rolf Pipping. And the year was 1912.

[PeterThaGreat]

What are you arguing against this time ? Concept of Finlandswedishness was invented by Rolf Pipping, year 1912. It took another decade for the concept to get any success.

Before that Swedophone Finns called themselves just as Swedophone Finns or just Finns. Even after the concept of Finlandswedishness was introduced to the public, by Rolf Pipping, year 1912, many Swedophone Finns found it completely stupid and didnt want to have anything to do with it.

There are Swedophone Finns today who dont want to be called as Finlandswedes.

You are being stubborn here, that's complete BS. What you are doing now is apply the terminology used by the elites during the national-romanticism and early nationalism and apply it to common people. That's is due to the fact that methods of Finnish history science is about 50 years behind rest of Europe. In rest of Europe the common method for analyzing history is to try to look it through the folk, not the elite. History writers such as Peter Englund, f.e who makes heavy use of diaries of normal peope f.e does not really exist in Finland.

Referring oneself as "Finne" was basically the cup of tea for those Swedes in charge of Österland/Finland during the late 18th till late 20th century. They were stuck by nationalromantism. In th every first pieces of Finnish-language literature in the 1500s Agricola (a Swede himself who coined the standard written Finnish) referred Finlands coast being "dwelled by Swedes and Gotlanders". There's no mention of "svenskspråkiga finnar" in his works. In Swedish Österbotten people have referred those in Mainland-Swedes as Sverigeboarna, Sweden-dweller not as svenskar, since Swedish Ostrobotnians have always considered themselves Swedes themselves as well (nationalromantic elite aside ofcourse).

"Från början var det självklart att man kunde vara svensk i Finland. Då Finland blev självständigt var det politiskt befogat att använda finlandssvensk för att markera statstillhörigheten. Begreppet riksvensk användes för att hänvisa till svenskar i Sverige. Nu har det blivit opportunt att använda svensktalande eller svenskspråkig finländare eller finne (på engelska swedish-speaking finns, ej Finland-Swedes) och samtidigt antyda att det bara är frågan om språk, ett kommunikationmedel, som skiljer svensk och finne i Finland".

Leif Höckerstedt, 2000

[Karhunkynsi]

Finska, Finnar, Finne etc all are typical definitions of people from Finland since medieval times. Stop fooling yourself. "Swedishness" in Finland is national romantic period invention. Language = Race = Nation, ring any bell ? It has 1800's written all over it.

You are quick to condemn Fennoman hegelianism but not Svekoman hegelianism. Both created by Finnish culture at the time.

As a Finnish person I'm deeply ashamed of Svekoman movement. You should be too.

[PeterThaGreat]

It appears some unhealthy psychologic mechanism is in control of you, that makes you vehemently reject everything you don't like, whether it would against all the odds.

As I already stated, Mikael Agricola wroted in the very first piece of Finnish literature (during the middle-ages) that the coast of Finland is being "dwelled by Swedes and Gotlanders". I ask you, WTF is wrong with you? You give yourself rather desperate picture with all those stubborn trolls. Normal Swedes at the coast of Finland have never referred themselves as "finnar". This is very apparent already from old diaries and other memo's written by normal people in Svenskfinland.

A guy who discloses his political views as AKS ( a fervent lobby group of Fenno-Uralic supremacism and fascism in the 1930s which the Soviets banned, thank god) expresses his shame about svecomanism?........oh....boy.....

The very inherent idea of Svecomanism in Finland was opposition against hegelism. There's not a single rational reason to condemn svecomanisn. This is the cup of the tea of inferior-complex Fennochauvinism. Svecomanisn was for the cultural integrity of Swedes in Finland. It was about supporting the existential right for a minority to exist. Unlike Fennomen, the Svecomen never denied any groups right for an ethnic identity.

[Karhunkynsi]

As I already stated, Mikael Agricola wroted in the very first piece of Finnish literature (during the middle-ages) that the coast of Finland is being "dwelled by Swedes and Gotlanders".


Which part of the coast ? Where did Agricola wrote that ? Reference please (actually I know it and I also know what Agricola wrote, reality just doesnt fit your writings..). I have no problem of "swedes" and "gotlanders" dwelling at Finnish coast. Show the source, original source, not some twisted Freudenthal version. I have lot of nice Agricola stuff waiting for you.



I ask you, WTF is wrong with you? You give yourself rather desperate picture with all those stubborn trolls. Normal Swedes at the coast of Finland have never referred themselves as "finnar". This is very apparent already from old diaries and other memo's written by normal people in Svenskfinland.


Svenskfinland is Svekoman invention. Before the hegelian Svekoman movement there was no such thing.



The very inherent idea of Svecomanism in Finland was opposition against Hegelism.


Svekomania is allways written with K, never with C.



There's not a single rational reason to condemn svecomanisn.


Yes there is. It was sick, racist ideology that did lot of harm to Finland and apparently still does.



This is the cup of the tea of inferior-complex Fennochauvinism. Svecomanisn was for the cultural integrity of Swedes in Finland.


No it wasnt. It was racist movement that mainly harmed the Swedophone Finns.



It was about supporting the existential right for a minority to exist. Unlike Fennomen, the Svecomen never denied any groups right for an ethnic identity.

Last time you were complaining how the Fennoman were shipping Swedes out of Finland.. now it is about identity. Goal keeps moving again. Many of the leading Fennoman figures were Swedophone themselves. Boohoo. Traitors of the "Swedish" cause.

[PeterThaGreat]

You are asking references for a famous quote. I have the exact Swedish translation of quote, it is in Kari Tarkiainens book (Sveriges Österland, 2008), I'll be back in my flat after two weeks, the book is there, so you'll have wait for a while.



Last time you were complaining how the Fennoman were shipping Swedes out of Finland.. now it is about identity. Goal keeps moving again. Many of the leading Fennoman figures were Swedophone themselves. Boohoo. Traitors of the "Swedish" cause.

Indeed, it was such an irony that Swedish descended uni-lingually Swedish such Forsman (Yrjö-Koskinen) wanted so heavily fennicize the entire country, if it wasn't for the identity, I am sure he would have slit his wrists, (as the representant of the "enemy ethnicity" as he was).

[Karhunkynsi]

You are asking references for a famous quote. I have the exact Swedish translation of quote, it is in Kari Tarkiainens book (Sveriges Österland, 2008), I'll be back in my flat after two weeks, the book is there, so you'll have wait for a while.


Oh, how surprising. Remember to quote exactly what Agricola wrote, not just sentence but the whole thing.



Indeed, it was such an irony that Swedish descended uni-lingually Swedish such Forsman (Yrjö-Koskinen) wanted so heavily fennicize the entire country, if it wasn't for the identity, I am sure he would have slit his wrists, (as the representant of the "enemy ethnicity" as he was).

Hehe. He indeed was enemy of Svekomaniacs.

[PeterThaGreat]

Oh, how surprising. Remember to quote exactly what Agricola wrote, not just sentence but the whole thing.



Hehe. He indeed was enemy of Svekomaniacs.

Surprising.....what? In regards to the ethnic issue in Finland, I am the only one who actually delivers sources. But, we need to skip our Agricola talk with couple of weeks, since I do lack sources at the moment, something that rarely bothers you, lacking of sources, that is.

I am too tired of responding to your messianic rants, actually, they are not even worth of debunking. I guess Svecomen and neo-Karelian Societets just don't fit in a single country.



Hehe. He indeed was enemy of Svekomaniacs.

Almost the whole Swedish-speaking elite was fennoman, hegelism together with nationalromanticism worked like disease against Swedes of Finland. If it wasn't for the Svecomen, there would not be a single Swedish-speakers in Finland, and the whole Scandinavian legal order in Finland along with Western civilization, would be in waste-basket.

[Karhunkynsi]

Surprising.....what? In regards to the ethnic issue in Finland, I am the only one who actually delivers sources. But, we need to skip our Agricola talk with couple of weeks, since I do lack sources at the moment, something that rarely bothers you, lacking of sources, that is.


Lack of sources does indeed bother me. Especially because you never present them. I still have plenty of that Agricola stuff waiting for you. I'm willing to wait until you get into your rented box.



I am too tired of responding to your messianic rants, actually, they are not even worth of debunking.

Ookay.

[Eldritch]

I'm willing to wait until you get into your rented box.



Rented box? Pffft.

Petteri has a 5,000€ per sqm flat in what he refers to "downtown Helsinki", paid for with his own money. Maybe we should all apply for a job at McD's?

[Karhunkynsi]

Petteri has a 5,000€ per sqm flat in what he refers to "downtown Helsinki", paid for with his own money. Maybe we should all apply for a job at McD's?

Only thing you have to do is register as fisherman at Ekenäs. They make millions.

[PeterThaGreat]

I'm willing to wait until you get into your rented box.



Ookay.

Well, actually I rented out my flat, (got some other summer plans, than staying here) and left nearly all of my books there (well, at the attic), I go and fetch them after couple of weeks.

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 10:05 ----------


Rented box? Pffft.

Petteri has a 5,000€ per sqm flat in what he refers to "downtown Helsinki", paid for with his own money. Maybe we should all apply for a job at McD's?

Fuck........am I being busted now?

[EliasAlucard]

Moved to Finnish section.

//mod

[Grynda]

I guess Svecomen and neo-Karelian Societets just don't fit in a single country.

Sometimes I think the Jews and the Palestinians have greater prospects of a happy co-existence.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

You are asking references for a famous quote. I have the exact Swedish translation of quote, it is in Kari Tarkiainens book (Sveriges Österland, 2008) Agricolas original text is not found in that book. Try searching somewhere else.
Please also explain why Agricola always used the terms us/we when talking about Finns and them for Swedes if a Finnish ethnicity did not exist?

The presence of Gotlanders and Swedes is not a trouble for anyone, what is troublesome is the dating. Nobody knows what timeframe Agricola referred to.

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 15:17 ----------


Sometimes I think the Jews and the Palestinians have greater prospects of a happy co-existence.

Yes. Both groups seems to be far more reasonable than the extremism you and PTG displays.

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 15:29 ----------


That's is due to the fact that methods of Finnish history science is about 50 years behind rest of Europe. This is your personal opinion, right?

In rest of Europe the common method for analyzing history is to try to look it through the folk, not the elite.
Excuse me, but what do you mean?

History writers such as Peter Englund, f.e who makes heavy use of diaries of normal peope f.e does not really exist in Finland. :lol::lol: You always manage to find new things to lie about.
This is too stupid to deserve anymore comments.


Referring oneself as "Finne" was basically the cup of tea for those Swedes in charge of Österland/Finland during the late 18th till late 20th century. They were stuck by nationalromantism. In th every first pieces of Finnish-language literature in the 1500s Agricola (a Swede himself who coined the standard written Finnish) referred Finlands coast being "dwelled by Swedes and Gotlanders". There's no mention of "svenskspråkiga finnar" in his works. In Swedish Österbotten people have referred those in Mainland-Swedes as Sverigeboarna, Sweden-dweller not as svenskar, since Swedish Ostrobotnians have always considered themselves Swedes themselves as well (nationalromantic elite aside ofcourse). Makes no sense, as usual.

[Tuohikirje]

Sometimes I think the Jews and the Palestinians have greater prospects of a happy co-existence.

It is allways sad to see that Finland-Swedes do not have a clear identity. I believe that the most insecurity is based on this fact. Ethnic identity is not based on language only. It is tied on your origin, roots, family, phenotype, genotype, history, language, property, lands, society, nation, politics, history etc.

My friends went to the Finnish-French school in Helsinki, we were spending summers in Nice. Quite nicely the 'French culture' fitted to a Finnish family originally from upper Satakunda and Häme!

[PeterThaGreat]

Agricolas original text is not found in that book. Try searching somewhere else.
Please also explain why Agricola always used the terms us/we when talking about Finns and them for Swedes if a Finnish ethnicity did not exist?



Ofcourse it exist, why would I say otherwise. This again one of your pathetic attempts to lie, manipulate and twist sources and defame me. Or did you just read 10 minutes the book as usual?

Agricola refers to us/them, since he wroted in Finnish and wanted to his author voice to feel alighment with the reader, exactltly as Tarkiainen has mentioned.


You always manage to find new things to lie about.
This is too stupid to deserve anymore comments.

Nah, its very common knowledge that Finnish scholars approach history as science in a very authoritive fashion. This is actually exactly what Henrik Meinander wrote in recent book recension over the some Finnish political history work which was recently publsihed in HS (Helsingin sanomat). But how would you know.

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 19:32 ----------


Sometimes I think the Jews and the Palestinians have greater prospects of a happy co-existence.

Word, miss Grynda.

[Tuohikirje]

Jews and Palestinians are not the same people. Finnish-Swedes and Finns are at every level.

Stupid comparisons.

[PeterThaGreat]

Well, atleast in the case of Jews and Palestinians there's no racial aspect in the conflict, unlike with Finland-Swedes and Finns. An aspect which is still present to some extent, despite the growing number of bi-ethnic relationships in modern times.

[EliasAlucard]

Jews and Palestinians are not the same people. Finnish-Swedes and Finns are at every level.

Stupid comparisons.Actually, "Palestinians" are genetically more Jewish than the Ashkenazi Jews who occupy Israel. Genetically, they're very much, the same people.

As for Finns, it's questionable how much of their ancestry is actually derived from Finno-Ugric people? Certainly, Finns are Europeans, predominantly so anyway. And Finland-Swedes probably do have more recent Swedish ancestry. So it's therefore questionable why Finland-Swedes should identify with a Finno-Ugrian identity? Although there's certainly some Finno-Ugrian ancestry in Finns (N1c), it's also questionable how much of their ancestry is derived from the original Finno-Ugrian speakers. Finns aren't exactly Khanty on a PCA plot.

By the way, I'm not trying to be anti-Finnish or anything. Just saying, Palestinians and Jews are more or less the same people and Finns and Finland-Swedes are also more or less the same people, save some minor N1c admixture.

[PeterThaGreat]

Finno-Ugric identity has absolutely nothing to do with the Swedes of Finland (East-Swedes/Finland-Swedes). The folklore, mentality and ethnic culture of Finland-Swedes is different from that of Finns. Finland-Swedes and Svenskfinland represents the Western-European civilization in Finland, not the Uralic civilization.

"Med finnarna har finlandssvenskarna åter en viktig politisk gemenskap, men detta innebär inte en etniskt gemensam grupptillhörighet"

Leif Höckerstedt, 2000 (Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar).


As for Finns, it's questionable how much of their ancestry is actually derived from Finno-Ugric people?

The way I see it is that Finns are the Westernmost branch of Northern Asian, Uralic people. It's natural, thanks to their geographic situation, that they represent racially the most dilluted bunch of Asian people, predominantly European, nevertheless judged by culture, language, folklore one cannot properly analyze Finns without the Arctic/Asian context. In other words, the Finns do not make entirely sense from European context.

[Karhunkynsi]

As for Finns, it's questionable how much of their ancestry is actually derived from Finno-Ugric people?


Finnish language belongs to Uralic language family thus it absolutely correct to say that Finns are 100% Uralic speaking people.



So it's therefore questionable why Finland-Swedes should identify with a Finno-Ugrian identity?


There is no such thing Finno-Ugrian identity in Finland. Finns are Finns. This Finno-Ugrian identity bullshit is getting old. For the millionth time, there is no such thing in Finland. Finnish people identify with Finnish people. Finns, Finns, Finns, Finns, Finns.. repeat 10000000000 times.



Although there's certainly some Finno-Ugrian ancestry in Finns (N1c), it's also questionable how much of their ancestry is derived from the original Finno-Ugrian speakers. Finns aren't exactly Khanty on a PCA plot.


Since when are the extremely mixed Siberian Khanties the genetic proto-Uralics ? Proto-Uralic speakers lived thousends of years ago at East Europe.

See my thread about linguistic dispersal of Uralic languages:
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=6384




save some minor N1c admixture.

N1c(1) is by far the most common Y-dna haplogroup in Finland.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Ofcourse it exist, why would I say otherwise. This again one of your pathetic attempts to lie, manipulate and twist sources and defame me. ? Then you better write the exact sentence here as it appears in Tarkiainens book.
Or did you just read 10 minutes the book as usual Yes, I'm a fast reader.


Agricola refers to us/them, since he wroted in Finnish and wanted to his author voice to feel alighment with the reader, exactltly as Tarkiainen has mentioned.And you can quote Tarkianen on this one also?


Nah, its very common knowledge that Finnish scholars approach history as science in a very authoritive fashion. Have you ever read anything by Markku Jokisipilä or Mirkka Lappalainen, to only mention two with an un-authoritive approach?


This is actually exactly what Henrik Meinander wrote in recent book recension over the some Finnish political history work which was recently publsihed in HS (Helsingin sanomat). But how would you know.Correct. How would I know what Meinander really wrote since it has gone through your perverted sieve before you wrote the sentence above?

---------- Post added 2010-07-07 at 16:39 ----------



As for Finns, it's questionable how much of their ancestry is actually derived from Finno-Ugric people? Certainly, Finns are Europeans, predominantly so anyway. Are you still dealing with this predominant Europeanness which is only 98-99%?

And Finland-Swedes probably do have more recent Swedish ancestry. Some of the do, yes we have all the facts in the "New Study" thread.

So it's therefore questionable why Finland-Swedes should identify with a Finno-Ugrian identity? What is a Finno Ugrian identity?

Although there's certainly some Finno-Ugrian ancestry in Finns (N1c), it's also questionable how much of their ancestry is derived from the original Finno-Ugrian speakers. Finns aren't exactly Khanty on a PCA plot.And Khanties aren't exactly mainstream Finno Ugrians, but peripheral Ugrics.


By the way, I'm not trying to be anti-Finnish or anything. Just saying, Palestinians and Jews are more or less the same people and Finns and Finland-Swedes are also more or less the same people, save some minor N1c admixture.Geez, taking five steps back again focusing on the Y-DNA chromosone instead of the autosomal bit?

[Tuohikirje]

Actually, "Palestinians" are genetically more Jewish than the Ashkenazi Jews who occupy Israel. Genetically, they're very much, the same people.


I was referring more to the current population of Israel and Palestinians of the area.

I do not believe that the recent Jewish state and it's population (immigrants from all over the world) are the same genetically with Palestinians. Jews, who have lived in the area long most likely are.

[Grynda]

Which part of the coast ? Where did Agricola wrote that ? Reference please (actually I know it and I also know what Agricola wrote, reality just doesnt fit your writings..). I have no problem of "swedes" and "gotlanders" dwelling at Finnish coast. Show the source, original source, not some twisted Freudenthal version.

Well, I happen to have this book and since Pete don't have access to his I can give you the quote (I hope this is the one you're talking about);

"Hans skildring finns i det andra företalet till det finska Nya Testamentet (1548).(...) Sedan tangerar reformatorn svenskarna i landet, som han kallar både "kustbor"(rantakansa) och "skärgårdsbor"(luotolaiset):

Om dessa har man förmodat och antagit, att kustborna i Nyland, i Borgå och Raseborgs län, liksom skärgårdsborna i Kaland och de österbottningar som ännu i dag talar svenska, har inflyttat från Sverige och Gotland. Och om de okristnade finnarna, som då var hedningar och bodde på fastlandet, på sitt vanliga sätt ville ofreda skärgårdsborna, kunde dessa med sina båtar snabbt söka sig till Sverige för att söka skydd och hjälp, hos svågrar och vänner. Därför har de varit kristna långt tidigare än de övriga inbyggarna i det finska stiftet och landet."

Page 46, Sveriges Österland, Kari Tarkiainen, 2008

[Oblomov]

Jews and Palestinians are not the same people. Finnish-Swedes and Finns are at every level.

Stupid comparisons.


Yeah, they're the same people. It's just that they're genetically, culturally and linguistically different. But hey atleast they live close to each other.

[Tuohikirje]

Yeah, they're the same people. It's just that they're genetically, culturally and linguistically different. But hey atleast they live close to each other.

Finnish-Swedes and Finns are not genetically different. Culturally they belong to the same cultural sphere with minor differences, if any. Used language differs, hard for you to crasp.

[Oblomov]

Finnish-Swedes and Finns are not genetically different. Culturally they belong to the same cultural sphere with minor differences, if any. Used language differs, hard for you to crasp.


Gee, it's too bad then that the recent autosomal dna-tests disprove the myth that they're just Finns who changed their language. It is extremely bad manners to try and force the Finland-Swedes to become finns when they clearly aren't Finns and for the most part probably don't even want to be. And who could blame them for it? You?

[Zupan]

Gee, it's too bad then that the recent autosomal dna-tests disprove the myth that they're just Finns who changed their language. It is extremely bad manners to try and force the Finland-Swedes to become finns when they clearly aren't Finns and for the most part probably don't even want to be. And who could blame them for it? You?

Well said because of people like them they will probably never be finnish. Who wants to be forced into becoming something?

[Tuohikirje]

Well said because of people like them they will probably never be finnish. Who wants to be forced into becoming something?

They have been Finnish and are Finns.

What can you do about it.

[Oblomov]

They have been Finnish and are Finns.

What can you do about it.


So you're the one who decides on other peoples ethnic identities for them? How very noble of you.

[Tuohikirje]

So you're the one who decides on other peoples ethnic identities for them? How very noble of you.

Since you are so well 'into the subject', we all would be happy to meet Finnish-Swedes, who DO NOT consider them as Finns.

Waiting.

[Oblomov]

Since you are so well 'into the subject', we all would be happy to meet Finnish-Swedes, who DO NOT consider them as Finns.

Waiting.

Hmmm... Wasn't it you who started claiming that all Finland-Swedes are and want to be Finns? Therefore the burden of proof is on you, isn't it? Besides there is no need for me to prove a point since it is evident that atleast a substantial minority if not the majority of Finland-Swedes don't consider themselves Finns if you follow the debate in for example the HBL and other swedish speaking medias. No matter how much you want it, you can't just steal their ethnicity from them.

[Tuohikirje]

if not the majority of Finland-Swedes don't consider themselves Finns

They have to be hiding somewhere.

All Finnish-Swedes I have met in my life, do consider them as Finns (Helsinki, western coast of Finland, Pietarsaari, Närpiö, Inkoo and so on and so on).

[Oblomov]

They have to be hiding somewhere.

All Finnish-Swedes I have met in my life, do consider them as Finns (Helsinki, western coast of Finland, Pietarsaari, Närpiö, Inkoo and so on and so on).

So you've discussed this issue with all of the Finland-Swedes you've ever met? You really are dedicated to Finnification of Finland-Swedes. It's funny how you constantly keep getting caught of outright lies and fabrication of history. I don't want to insult you but have you actually read anything about Finnish history or history in general from anywhere else than the Internet?

[Eldritch]

I don't want to insult you but have you actually read anything about Finnish history or history in general from anywhere else than the Internet?

Even if the answer were "no", that would still be an extremely odd question to ask. I don't see how the medium one uses to study anything is of any consequence at all.

[PeterThaGreat]

They have to be hiding somewhere.

All Finnish-Swedes I have met in my life, do consider them as Finns (Helsinki, western coast of Finland, Pietarsaari, Närpiö, Inkoo and so on and so on).

"Swedes and Finns in Finland" (by Max Englund, 1995)
http://www.google.com/books?hl=sv&lr=&id=iZhPyF0p8NYC&oi=fnd&pg=PA179&dq=Swedes+and+Finns+in+Finland+Max&ots=_idnsV9wwB&sig=r1091Go0lKaQEeYiNhgDFEfVz58#v=onepage&q=Swedes%20and%20Finns%20in%20Finland%20Max&f=false

Swedish language makes a distinction between ethnic Finns (finnar) and the residents of Finland, irrespective of ethnicity (finländare). Russian language makes the distinction too, between ethnic Russians and dwellers of Russia in general. The english language version of "Finn" bears too much ethnic-Finnic connotation that I find it improper for Finland-Swedes or East-Swedes as many members of the minority will be referred as.

The Swedes at the coast of Finland, atleast in Nyland have history of using derogatively and very pejoratively a phrase, "e tu finsk", when someone had acted retarded or screwed up something. The Finns obviously had their own insults for the Swedes, the ethnic identities in Finland are as long as the co-existance of Swedes and Finns in Finland.

[Oblomov]

Even if the answer were "no", that would still be an extremely odd question to ask. I don't see how the medium one uses to study anything is of any consequence at all.

That's the most shocking statement I've heard in here so far. No wonder your opinions are so skewed. You can't really compare a few pages of info from the Internet to reading a book. Especially since the Internet is so full of shit.

[Eldritch]

No wonder your opinions are so skewed.

Examples?


You can't really compare a few pages of info from the Internet to reading a book. Especially since the Internet is so full of shit.

Everyone knows the internet is full of shit. So is a lot printed material.

And simple insistence that by reading a few pages from a book will benefit a person more than reading the same or equivalent material from the internet does not actually make it so.

[Oblomov]

Examples?



Everyone knows the internet is full of shit. So is a lot printed material.

And simple insistence that by reading a few pages from a book will benefit a person more than reading the same or equivalent material from the internet does not actually make it so.

While reading a book you usually gain a broad and detailed knowledge of the issue at hand. If you read a few pages from an Internet site, you'll at most gain some snippets of info. Of course in my opinion you need to have a large common knowledge and some degree of education to understand history anyway.

I don't believe you can grasp anything important about history from the Internet. At most you can learn some dates. Which, in my opinion, aren't what History is about. Feel free to disagree though. I'm not that interested in debating the merits of serious studies compared to the Internet.

[Eldritch]

While reading a book you usually gain a broad and detailed knowledge of the issue at hand. If you read a few pages from an Internet site, you'll at most gain some snippets of info. Of course in my opinion you need to have a large common knowledge and some degree of education to understand history anyway.

I don't believe you can grasp anything important about history from the Internet. At most you can learn some dates. Which, in my opinion, aren't what History is about. Feel free to disagree though. I'm not that interested in debating the merits of serious studies compared to the Internet.

You still don't understand, Oblomov. I am asking you what makes printed matter so special that reading it will provide the reader with insights that reading the same material in electronic form does not. If you are going to say that that is beside the point, or accuse me of diverting the argument, then allow me to remind you that you're the one who brought it up in the first place.

And you didn't tell me which of my opinions are "skewed".

[Oblomov]

You still don't understand, Oblomov. I am asking you what makes printed matter so special that reading it will provide the reader with insights that reading the same material in electronic form does not. If you are going to say that that is beside the point, or accuse me of diverting the argument, then allow me to remind you that you're the one who brought it up in the first place.

And you didn't tell me which of my opinions are "skewed".

I already answered you multiple times. It is not me who started with semantics. I've never claimed that electronic form is the problem.

I'm not gonna start dissecting your writings, but it is clear that you harbor a deep animosity towards not only the Finland-swedes but also other ethnic minorities and other cultures "mr banana republic".

[Eldritch]

I already answered you multiple times. It is not me who started with semantics. I've never claimed that electronic form is the problem.

Yes, you did. You claimed that me saying that as a medium there is no difference between electronic and printed material was the most shocking thing you've read on this forum so far.


I'm not gonna start dissecting your writings, but it is clear that you harbor a deep animosity towards not only the Finland-swedes but also other ethnic minorities and other cultures "mr banana republic".

If it is clear, then it should not be difficult for you to provide examples.

[Oblomov]

Yes, you did. You claimed that me saying that as a medium there is no difference between electronic and printed material was the most shocking thing you've read on this forum so far.



If it is clear, then it should not be difficult for you to provide examples.

It was about internet not about electronic form.

And here:

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/search.php?searchid=309635

Enjoy!

[Eldritch]

It was about internet not about electronic form.

Is the internet not electronic?


And here:

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/search.php?searchid=309635

Enjoy!

Try again. Post a link that works, and explain what's "skewed" about it.

EDIT:

Remember, you claimed I have a "deep animosity" towards 1. Finn-Swedes, 2. ethnic minorities, 3. other cultures.

[Oblomov]

Is the internet not electronic?



Try again. Post a link that works, and explain what's "skewed" about it.

EDIT:

Remember, you claimed I have a "deep animosity" towards 1. Finn-Swedes, 2. ethnic minorities, 3. other cultures.

Either you are slightly retarded or trolling. I hope for you sake it's the latter. I've enjoyed reading your "witty" posts.

[Eldritch]

Either you are slightly retarded or trolling. I hope for you sake it's the latter. I've enjoyed reading your "witty" posts.

Ah! Thus departs this Orlando furioso.

With the mandatory expressions of concern for my mental state, and the congratulations for having provided him with brief moments of fleeting amusement.

[Oblomov]

Ah! Thus departs this Orlando furioso.

With the mandatory expressions of concern for my mental state, and the congratulations for having provided him with brief moments of fleeting amusement.

Well I did not depart, I just put you on ignore. I just wanted to clarify that I find it quite odd that a self declared racist and a frequent poster to racist forums like the Stormfront and Hommaforum chooses to pollute this fine international forum.

I don't know what's more obscene your posts or your twisted racistic views, which are even more hilarious when one takes into consideration the fact that you are an asiatic mongol yourself.

[JackKnightstick]

Finland will always belong to the Russian Motherland!

[PeterThaGreat]

I don't know what's more obscene your posts or your twisted racistic views, which are even more hilarious when one takes into consideration the fact that you are an asiatic mongol yourself.

Well put, Oblomow.

[Eldritch]

Well I did not depart, I just put you on ignore. I just wanted to clarify that I find it quite odd that a self declared racist and a frequent poster to racist forums like the Stormfront and Hommaforum chooses to pollute this fine international forum.


Hommaforum is not a "racist" forum, and I am not a frequent poster there. I also haven't posted on Stormfront for about five years or so. As for you not understanding my presence on this forum, well, that's your problem, not mine.

Btw how did you know that anyway? Who are you a sock of?

Also coming from people like you, the term "international" doesn't mean anything.



I don't know what's more obscene your posts or your twisted racistic views, which are even more hilarious when one takes into consideration the fact that you are an asiatic mongol yourself.

In other words, it's okay to be racist in some cases.

Btw are you going to answer my question at last, since you took me off ignore and all: since you don't drink and try to be polite to everyone (except Finns and other racists of course), does that mean you are not a Finn? Try to put a minimum of intellectual effort into your answer.

[Tuohikirje]

Finland will always belong to the Russian Motherland!

WELL, THAT would be be the first f*****g time in history.

Thank you for your effort anyway.

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 17:25 ----------

Eldritch, never mind.

Lapanen on vielä hukassa.

[PeterThaGreat]

In the meantime read all those recent studies which disprove with the myth that they are ethnic Swedes.

All available sources posted on this forum confirms that Finlandswedes have t.

Where does this weird postulation comes? There's been one sample of Finland-Swedes, from Ostrobotnia, used now in three studies. If pooled, from average Finnish and Swedish values, the sample of the 22 Ostrobotnian Swedish cluster with Mainland-Sweden. If not pooled it's closest to Finnish speaking adjacent population, which has received Swedish admixture.

However, it's good to point out that the sample used in regards to Finland-Swedes is not deep-ancestral (all the Grand-parents of the donour identified with the same ethnicity than the donour), no ancestral requirement for the sample was done, and some of grand-parent or even parents of the donours come from uni-lingually Finnish regions. It's partly mixed-ethnic sample.

Finland-Swedes as population are not language-shifters, their biological founding population are the Swedes. Claiming otherwise would be like saying that the volk deutsch are not Ethnic-Germans, but language shifters. Finland-Swedes are, simple put, Volksvenskar together with the former Swedes in Estonia and Ukraine.

The first study that used the sample from Swedish Ostrobotnia, even had pictural illustration of the cluster which came-up after geneland sofware allocated them.



In the meantime read all those recent studies which disprove with the myth that they are ethnic Swedes.

This must be again one of your ridiculous BS verdicts. Finland coast has historically been settled by ethnic-Swedes. Whether this Swedish-speaking ethnic minority at the coast (hailing their dialects and folklore to Central-Sweden) is fully biologically Swedish today is another case, that must be verified by having larger, deep-ancestral samples. The answer is probably not, this folk did not live in a vacuum, and I am afraid it really has no relevance to ethnic identity of Finland-Swedes. It only has relevance to your Finnish-asiatic inferior complex.