Myth and the Finnish Bi-lingual/national structure, by Kenneth McRae

[PeterThaGreat]

Kenneth McRae is Canadian scholar of multi-lingual societies, in 1997 (edited version in 1999) he delivered his work, Compromise and coflict in multi-lingual societies, case Finland.

Finnish-speakers have generally a messianic self-believe in the fact that Finland-Swedes are the most priviledged minority in the world, with the implication that it is due to the generosity of Finns, this is ofcourse complete BS. And unless you are not complete retard (or a Finn) it's not difficult to see through the Finland's great system with the official linguistic "egalitarity" (in paper) between the Finnish and Swedish nations.

Its is interesting that Kenneth McRae was able to see the biggest problems (from a minority point of view) already in 1997, two years before the constitional change which made the vague territorial protection of Swedish-speakers cease to exist. After that Finland has done what expected, destroyed the administrative facilities which support the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes almost to the last man.

With this thread I am about to cover issues which does not fit to the traditional myth of Finland-Swedes being the most pampered minority in the world, a myth hold by inferior-complex fenno-chauvinist and even politically correct and subservient "Swedish-speaking Finns", (although the eyes of the latter has also opened during the last years).

"The image of Swedish-speakers as as ' priviledged' minority' is cited regularly by Finnish-speaking politicians, intellectuals and journalists, usually in conjunction with an attack on existing minority rights or in opposition to proposals for their improvement. In turn, these attacks have been challenged and refuted by Swedish-speakers, but even among academics this debate has been unfocused and lacking definitional rigor"

Kenneth McRae, 1999


Lol, I haven't spent more than 10 minutes of reading Mcrae but I have already found a few sentences which in original are not what PTG have claimed to be Mcrae-"critisicm" of Finland. Quite the contrary, Mcrae has a positive and admiring attitude towards Finlands linguistical solutions.

Peter, this is going to be hard for you.. I almost feel sorry how ridiculous you'll look when I bring out to light even more of your falsifications.


This I want to see . PTG has used that McRae fellow as somekind of second coming of Jesus for his case. No doubt he is twisting and tweaking McRaes work.


Peter, What does McRae write about, what is the subject?
Where have McRae stated that "Finland-Swedes did a terrible mistake for settling with too little in 1919 and 1923"?
Where have McRae criticized Finland for "not applying territorial principle"?
Why did several Finlandswedish scholars tell McRae that Canada should have based certain key figures of its language law on the Finnish model?


It would surprise me less to look out the window and see it raining gas-masked Adolf Hitlers than it would surprise me to see Petteri give straightforward, unambiguous and verifiable answers to these questions.

Like you yourself have stated, PTG does not read. He is enamoured with impressive and fancy-sounding terms and phrases, which he parrots without understanding their meaning. He is a broken-down Chinese Room who tries to rely on others being as dumb as he himself is.

He didn't read Dutton's book, nor has he read anything by McRae either. He probably hasn't read anything, except maybe the editorials at Höbla.


1) In a nuttshell McRae gives an analysis Finland's bi-lingual state structure from the viewpoint of three two concepts, lingustic peace and linguistic stability. Moreover, he also analyzed group-images and concluded that much of the current ethno-linguistic conflict in Finland is due to the inferior complex of Ethnic-Finns in regards to Finland-Swedes (a former upper-dog). This all-present Finnish mentality and inferior-complex in Finland puts Finland-Swedes in a very difficult situation.

According to McRae linguistic peace is very high in Finland, there's no bigger conflicts due to:

"A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'.

Charlotta Hedberg "Finland-Swedish wheel on immigration", 2004

2) In regards to linguistic stability, or rather instability in the case of Finland. McRae expressed retrospective critisism for Finland-Swedes, who according to him settled with too little in 1919 and 1922 when language acts and consitution was drafted. Finland-Swedes got their language as the status of national language but it was left without all territorial guarantees, which would have been extremely important for a little, but strongly territorially-bounded minority.

"For the mainland provinces, the Finnish-speaking parties and leadership studiously avoided self-goverment for Swedish speakers but instead offered cultural concessions - most notably administrative autonomy for Swedish schools and a Swedish diocese - that were sufficient to satisfy moderate Swedish-speakers and to discourage activists from striving for more. As our previous analysis has suggested at several points, a retrospective view of subsequent language development strongly suggest that the centre-oriented Swedish-speaking leadership made a flawed decision in accepting this settlement, though whether more could have been achieved at that point by harder bargaining is difficult to asses".

(centre vs. peripheral has been the common dichotomy to describe the difference between Finland-Swedes at rural areas and around Helsingfors - my add)

"One can debate further whether Finland's formula for reciprocity spells full justice for vastly unequal collectivities. The language laws specify the language of a local majority as the main working language of a goverment office; among other things this means that all central goverment offices operate in primarly Finnish and have higher second-language requirements for Swedish-speaking than Finnish speaking employeed"

On this statement Kenneth McRae was a bit ahead of his time. He critizized the way Finland and especially Svenskfinland was being almost completely finnicized because of the flexible territoriality principle; the powerfull Finnish domestic immigration to Swedish-speaking parts of the country managed these immigrants to transform the administrative units of these regions entirely to Finnish-speaking.

Last remnants of the fixed territorial protection the Finland-Swedes enjoyed was being wiped in the constitional reform of 1999/2000 after that 6/7 principal courts where the working language (ämbetspråk) was Swedish have been annihilated, together with all attorney districts and all six regional police districts which operated in Swedish. As a result, the access for Swedish-speakers to public administration in their own language has been made in practise in the same level as with Somali language, (apart from written documents maybe, which are still in two language).


"One factor for instability is that Finland's language legislation, unlike that of Belgium or Switzerland, is based on flexible rather than fixed linguistic territoriality, except in the Åland islands, where Swedish enjoys a permanently protected special status".

Finland - marginal case for bicommunalism, Kenneth McRae, 1988.

In a nuttshell, language peace, language (in)stability. Finlands bi-lingual structure provides an excellent mechanism to subjugate minority nation with language change = assimilation.

"Our general verdict on flexible territoriality in mainland Finland must be carefully qualified: as a formula for linguistic change and accommodation with minimal conflict , it has been a considerable success; as method for providing minority-language stability or protection, it has not succeeded".


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And no.......you fennofairies do not have to apologize for the comments (something you'd not be even capable of), it would mean nothing, you guys are savages to me.

[Karhunkynsi]

I will remove you from my ignore list for awhile. I actually fully agree that it is myth that Finland is bi-lingual. Finland is not bi-lingual anywhere else than in paper. We should adopt the new Swedish language law, pretty much as it is. Finland becoming officially, unilingually Finnish. Swedish language would be allowed to have some status at communal level at those places where there is significant amount of Swedophones.

[PeterThaGreat]

^ Well as the past events have shown, I sincerely would not have anything against if Finland was made uni-lingually Finnish in 1919, provided that the whole Svenskfinland would have received strong territorial guarantees for Swedish and some form of self-goverment. In a nuttshell, autonomy at the cost of national-language status. I'd take it anyday.

Helsingfors and Åbo could have been made officially bi-lingual. That would have been very similar structure than we have in Belgium, between the French, Flemings (and Germans). Or even South-Tyrol model with German autonomy in uni-lingual Italy would have been good model for Svenskfinland.

Anyway, along with your Swedish model, all your great "Finnish" heroes such as Runeberg, Jansson, Mannerheim would just degenerate into speakers of some local regional languages, very good national heroes:thumbsup:. Could your Finnish self-confidence bear this?

But in general I don't think its fair that the Finns first finnicize all parts of the country with their domestic immigration patterns and taking advantage of the flexible territory-principle and than start whining for unilingual Finland. That's just wrong.

"There's a touch of irony here, for Finnish nationalists founding nothing anamalous in refusing to the Swedish-speaking population the kind of cultural protection that both groups had jointly fought for so vigorously in the face of the equality law and other Tsarists measures for russification"

Although, I disagree with McRae here Finns have never fought for cultural integrity of themselves, this has been done by Swedish-descended, uni-lingually Swedish language shifters who supported the speakers of this obscure Uralic-language.

[Karhunkynsi]

What beeing Finnish means today is not same as it was hundred years ago, nor 1000 years ago. This language issue is much more sensitive to you than it is to me. You want to Swedify people who never considered themselves as anything else than Finnish. If their Finnishness wasnt same thing as modern Finnishnes then so what ? National concepts change and evolve.

Swedish language is not endangered in Finland nor it is endangered in Sweden. Language change from Swedish to Finnish is just as normal as was language change from Finnish to Swedish.

Finlandswedishness anyway is completely artificial concept, created during first few decades of 20th century. Yet you project it to people (like Runeberg) who had no possibility to consider themselves as Finlandswedes (as he died long before such conecpt even existed).

Then you create nonsensical geographical terms such Svenskfinland, never existed, except as part of Finland where _some_ people are Swedophones. Another creation of early 20th century.

What you are doing is merely a historical coup d'état Finlandswedish style. I understand that you have identity issues but please, dont project those to me or any other Finn.

I have no problem with Mannerheim beeing Swedophone, I have no problem if Agricola was Swedophone (<- whic is highly unlikly) etc. They considered themselves as Finns of their time. They did not consider themselves as Swedes, and especially not as Finlandswedes. Swedish language is part of Finnish history as we were part of Sweden for centuries. Thats it. Times change and now official bi-lingualism of state is merely a burden. I dont see no point to keep it that way just for the sake of a tradition.

[PeterThaGreat]

^

"The vehemence of Finnish nationalists attacks on 'Swedish separatism' and the concept of 'Swedish land' and on any other manifestations of distinctive group identity among Swedish-speakers is clear evidence that the leaders of the two language communities held widely divergent views during this period concerning the ideal model for Finland".

Kenneth McRae, 1999

Finns are extremely sensitive for the language issue since they oppose every measures which would increase the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers.

Kanrhunkynsi, darling, you are trolling. This issue is not about whether Finland-Swedes feel themselves as Finns or Swedes, all Finland-Swedes support the existance of Swedish-language which is our identity, irrespective of whether the Swedish-speaker sees him/herself as finne, östsvensk, svensk europe or finlandssvensk.

The cultural eccentric you've recited, Jörn Donner, thinks that the term finlandssvensk is artificial indeed, however, yet Donner is fervent advocate of the rights of Swedish-speakers and has even been the member of Swedish People's party (in Finland) and worried about the faith of Swedish language in Finland which seems to start loosing its role as a state-bearing language in Finland. So, I am afraid your extending to issue to something that has no role at the issue being discussed.

Agricola was from a wealthy noble family from Torsby, Pernå, an area which in the 1500s was 100% Swedish. And indeed, according to author of Agricola bibliography, and the former chief of Finnish state-archieve, Tarkiainen, Agricola was 100% Swedish-speaking who at best had learned Finnish in his adolescense from the maid staff of his family. Since you make such a crazy statement as questioning Agricolas mother-tongue I am afraid you have some issues indeed.

Anyway, your trolls are cute. I see how haven't progressed much from the ideas of the Fenno-Uralic supremacism of the 1930s.

You want to propagate your narrow-minded, sick Fennochauvinism and make people something they are not.

"Samhällsklimatet efter krigen inbegriper en fosterländsk idé om ett folk med två språk. Detta folk borde ju då ha ett folklynne. Och om ett folk uppfattas som lika med en nationalitet så borde det finnas bara en 'nationalkaraktär'. Detta åter strider mot historien och den tidigare uppfattningen och inte minst folks vardagserfarenheter."

"Med finnarna har finlandssvenskarna åter en viktig politisk gemenskap, men detta innebär inte en etniskt gemensam grupptillhörighet"

"Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdesvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar".

Leif Höckerstedt, 2000, "Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar".

[Karhunkynsi]

It's incredidle how you are able to contradict yourself in one post. Be precise: What are you arguing ? What is your argument ?



"Finns are extremely sensitive for the language issue since they oppose every measures which would increase the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers."


I'm not "extremely sensitive" on language issue. I think I have outlined my pov pretty clearly. You how ever resorted once again in your typical goal moving technic.



"all Finland-Swedes support the existance of Swedish-language which is our identity, irrespective of whether the Swedish-speaker sees him/herself as finne, östsvensk, svensk europe or finlandssvensk."


I have nothing against native tongue beeing part of persons identity. I would find it pretty strange if your native tongue would have no effect on your personality. I doubt you will found person who would think otherwise.



Anyway, your trolls are cute. I see how haven't progressed much from the ideas of the Fenno-Uralic supremacism of the 1930s.


Hehe. The Finns are coming, the Finns are coming!! All hide!



You want to propagate your narrow-minded, sick Fennochauvinism and make people something they are not.


Yeah sure. You didnt have a point in your post. Could you now describe, with few lines, what are you actually arguing ? I allmost had forgotted how fruittless talking to you really is.

[PeterThaGreat]

^

What? You were the one who made the topic into some imagined historic coup-de-etat and made explicit implication that Finland-Swedishness is just artificial construct and that all Swedish-speakers should just finnicize themselves.

I understand you oppose bi-lingualism, you are not the first ethno-nationalist I've come a cross. I just pointed out that this issue is this time solely about the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers, not about how Finnish/Finne Mannerheim was. You on other do not contribute anything to a debate, beyond comedic trolls. I responded to your quest for uni-lingual Finland by introducing a theme of self-goverment and autonomy for Swedish-speaking regions (irrespective of whether the Swedish speaking residents there are "artificial" or not). You didn't even bother elaborate your thoughts or make comment in regards to the issue.

You are not extremely senstive to contemporary language issues, but you are indeed extremely sensitive to the language issue of the past. That's where our roles are reversed.

[Karhunkynsi]

What? You were the one who made the topic into some imagined historic coup-de-etat and made explicit implication that Finland-Swedishness is just artificial construct and that all Swedish-speakers should just finnicize themselves.


Finlandswedishness is artificial creation of first few decades of 1900's. Large umbrella term that became used of anyone in Finland speaking Swedish, regardless how the person identified with. There is nothing controversial in that. I never sed Swedish-speakers should Finnicize themselves, it is natural process that is allready going on. Just like Finnish language is slowly but surely disappearing from North Sweden.



I understand you oppose bi-lingualism, you are not the first ethno-nationalist I've come a cross.


I'm not against bi-lingualism. You are again projecting your fantasies on me. I'm against Republic of Finland beeing officially bi-lingual. There is major difference. I dont care what language people speak with their friends or over the family dinner. Not my business.



I just pointed out that this issue is this time solely about the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers, not about how Finnish/Finne Mannerheim was.


You didnt do very good job as I still dont understand what your actual argument is. There is no such thing as homogenic Swedophone culture in Finland. Define what means "integrity of Swedophone culture" of Finland.

Btw; It was you who started to push Mannerheim and Runeberg to conversation, not me. It seems like your inferiority complex can not even comprehend basic historical realities.

[PeterThaGreat]

You didnt do very good job as I still dont understand what your actual argument is. There is no such thing as homogenic Swedophone culture in Finland. Define what means "integrity of Swedophone culture" of Finland.

Okay,

well incase you read anything about the thread the issue is about the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes manifested in their access to administrative services in their mother-tongue, not about the ethnic culture of Finland-Swedes.

(You don't need any special protection for snapvisor, folklore nor lucia-fest. Or incase you do, I am against of state putting money in supporting such activities, no matter of the linguistic group).

This is solely about Swedish in Finland as a state-bearing language, about the Bi-lingual state-structure of Finland. Everything else is something you've come up. I only took Runeberg and Mannerheim in the question because Savon Sanomat wrote a brilliant article about the national-language position and what would it mean if the official position of Swedish was abandoned, the paper disclosed that Mannerheim and Runeberg would indeed relegated as speakers as some "obscure" local regional languages. This is was ofcourse half-joke but could have implications for the Finnish national identity.

Now, indegious groups who are denied the access to official administration on their own language will wittness their language to degenerate into a useless b-class language, that kind of a cultural group won't be culturally very thriving. It will eventually assimilate sooner or later.

Finland is not deniying the access for Finland-Swedes into public administration on a paper, but in practise it is being denied atleast in Southern Finland, something which the department of justice recently disclosed.

"Språklagen fungerar inte"
http://svenska.yle.fi/nyheter/sok.php?id=154463&lookfor=&sokvariant=arkivet&advanced=yes&antal=10

The reason why Finland is in a state of legal nihilism in regards to its language act and constitution is because the Finland-Swedish self-service principle has been radically weakened. Our own admnistrative units where Swedish-speakers served Swedish-speakers have been annihilated, and Finnish state and municipal clerks do not respect the language act in general.

Administrative structures that support the existence of the minority language in public life and dead issue for a minority, for majority they won't mean anything, which is natural.

Those administrative structures where Swedish is the ämbetsspråk, the language of operation is crucial for the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers. They are being destroyd by Finland due to the flaws in Finnish language legistlation. Swedish in Finland does not have any guarantees unlike the minority languages in other bi-multi-lingual states. Linguistic guarantees will give continuation for the minority language. F.e If it wasn't for strong guarantees Switzerland would be 100% German today and Canada 100% anglophone.

Imagine what kind of Finnishness we would have today if Finnish would not have any role in public administration. It would be useless home-language which only couple old grannies would use in a forest in addition to couple local hillibillies with lion neclaces and toyota caps maybe. It would be language whose members would be ashamed to speak it in Helsingfors, f.e. The Swedish-descended and uni-lingually Swedish-speaking persons fought for the cultural integrity of Finnish-speakers and laid the foundations for the Finnish culture which eventually became very thriving and exuberant.

[Eldritch]

Conflict and Compromise in Multilingual Societies: Fnland (http://books.google.com/books?id=s8eNDR6YDlwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Conflict+and+Compromise+in+Multilingual+Societi es:+Finland&source=bl&ots=HgeRknsAXL&sig=unyl_NE71Fa6Oh8A_Inu28JH6Ck&hl=fi&ei=ELUsTIKJDqKIONKZ5KkJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false).

[Karhunkynsi]

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no Swedish-language administration in Finland ? There is way too much double administration because of Swedishlanguage.

If there are any flaws in Finnish language legislation perhaps it is time to change the makers then. Language legislation has been pretty much monopoly of Finlandswedes, infact it's the only interest of RKP. It is the one part of state legislation that has been given for linguistic minority to take care off!

Blame it on them (yourself). I do agree that the language legislation is complete farce and utterly ridiculous. It is more like wish list to Santa Claus, written by Peter 6 years old, than actual sober law.

When Finland will be officially, unilingually Finnish many of those fundamental flaws can be corrected. Those flaws are there because of sick RKP policy (which for reasons unknown to me) which mainstream parties support. Law has so much flaws because the very base is wrong. Finland is not bi-lingual country. Finland is overhelmingly Finnish speaking country, with small Swedophone minority.

New Swedish language law is very good. It could be implemented into Finland with only little changes.

[PeterThaGreat]

Why didn't you include the link to McRae's book?

Because there's no link to a book. That's why. Google scholar allows browsing of the book, but it leaves about 3/4 blank, this was the version Motorhead had browsed for 10minutes and already started make far-fetched links along with his bizarre interpretations and ofcourse his trademark accusation for me twisting sources, which happens everytime he sees or reads something he doesn't like.

@Karhunkynsi,

the cultural autonomy of Swedish nation along with Swedish speaking ämbetsdistrikten (and vice versa for the Finnish nation) formed the cornerstone of the creed, the contract on which whole Finland was being build in 1919. This arrangement, or state structure was intact already in the 1800s. I see you are not really familiar with the basic ideas on which your state was being build on. Otherwise, you'd probably respected a great deal of them. Well, this is nothing new from you, trolling is where you excell at. You is pretty vulgar-fellow.

"Nationalspråken i samhällskontraktet"
http://www.vasabladet.fi/story.aspx?storyID=35427&highlight=suksi

"De två ben på vilka språkskyddet vilar har nu rubbats så, att det ena benet (territorialprincipen) håller på att sågas av. Det är inte bra, för jag tror att arrangemanget med en kombinerad individualprincip och territorialprincip i själva verket utgör en grundbult för hela vår samhällsordning och därtill skapar ett organiskt förhållande till den nordiska gemenskapen. Statsförfattningens bestämmelser om nationalspråken, inklusive en kombination av individual- och territorialprincipen, kan alltså enligt mitt förmenande uppfattas som en del av "samhällskontraktet" vid tillblivelsen av Finland. Det har man nu modifierat genom en ny bestämmelse i grundlagens 122 §. "

By wiping out the territorial principle in the old constitution (article 50 in the 1999 constitution) Finland has already violated the cultural autonomy of Finland-Swedes and finnicized Svenskfinlands (Swedish-speaking municipalities) administrative structures to an extent that it is unclear whether is possible to ever repair the damages. You can ofcourse troll as much as you like, but the sources along with reports from Finnish ministry of justice speaks clearly.

"Såsom jag just nu ser på saken utgör kombinationen av individual- och territorialprincipen egentligen en grundstruktur i det "samhällskontrakt" som skapade Finland på 1910- och 1920-talen."

Genom territorialprincipen upprätthölls en språklig gradering av ämbetsdistrikt som skiftade i takt med befolkningsmajoritetens språk från enspråkigt finskspråkiga kommuner via tvåspråkiga kommuner med finska som majoritetsspråk till tvåspråkiga kommuner med svenska som majoritetsspråk och slutligen till enspråkigt svenskspråkiga kommuner. Principen var (och är) dynamisk, för den beaktade befolkningsrörelser samtidigt som den garanterade den språkliga minoritetetens ställning.

"Orsaken var att grundlagsändringen för cirka tio år sedan försvagade territorialprincipen på ett sätt som i dag kanske kan anges som en orsak till att de tvåspråkiga ämbetsdistrikten med svenska som majoritetens språk försvinner i allt högre grad."

Markku Suksi, professor of public law.

Making Finland unilingually Finnish would equivalent to making USA a monarchy, it would be violation against fundamental principles for which the state was build upon.

[Eldritch]

Because there's no link to a book.

The link I posted seems okay though, based on two minutes of browaing, I'm at a library though and will have to leave soon.

But you're saying you are in possession of the printed version, and you aren't relying on the online version?

[PeterThaGreat]

The link I posted seems okay though, based on two minutes of browaing, I'm at a library though and will have to leave soon.

But you're saying you are in possession of the printed version, and you aren't relying on the online version?

Yes, I have the print version. Ofcourse. It's a basic staple for everyone interested in ethnic-relations and Finland.

[Eldritch]

Yes, I have the print version. Ofcourse. It's a basic staple for everyone interested in ethnic-relations and Finland.

And it's different from the online version?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Kenneth McRae is Canadian scholar of multi-lingual societies, in 1997 (edited version in 1999) he delivered his work, Compromise and coflict in multi-lingual societies, case Finland.
Why have you abused McRaes name and claimed he stated things you invented?


Finnish-speakers have generally a messianic self-believe in the fact that Finland-Swedes are the most priviledged minority in the world, with the implication that it is due to the generosity of Finns, this is ofcourse complete BS. And unless you are not complete retard (or a Finn) it's not difficult to see through the Finland's great system with the official linguistic "egalitarity" (in paper) between the Finnish and Swedish nations. I'm both a retard and Finnish, but I understand things better than you since being both retard and Finnish makes me neutral and objective.


Its is interesting that Kenneth McRae was able to see the biggest problems (from a minority point of view) already in 1997, two years before the constitional change which made the vague territorial protection of Swedish-speakers cease to exist. After that Finland has done what expected, destroyed the administrative facilities which support the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes almost to the last man. Could it be so that McRae was an evil mole who masterplanned all this?


With this thread I am about to cover issues which does not fit to the traditional myth of Finland-Swedes being the most pampered minority in the world, a myth hold by inferior-complex fenno-chauvinist and even politically correct and subservient "Swedish-speaking Finns",
Why would it be better to be an inferior-complexed Swedo-chauvinist like you?



This all-present Finnish mentality and inferior-complex in Finland puts Finland-Swedes in a very difficult situation.
Peter.
For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

Puuha-Pete, sit down and think before you answer.


you guys are savages to me.
Don't get too high on this feeling. Nobody here thinks that you are civilized at all.

---------- Post added 2010-07-01 at 19:17 ----------


Conflict and Compromise in Multilingual Societies: Fnland (http://books.google.com/books?id=s8eNDR6YDlwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Conflict+and+Compromise+in+Multilingual+Societi es:+Finland&source=bl&ots=HgeRknsAXL&sig=unyl_NE71Fa6Oh8A_Inu28JH6Ck&hl=fi&ei=ELUsTIKJDqKIONKZ5KkJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false).

I recommend anyone intrested to read this book. It really is a well written book and the research behind it is well done.

McRae would be very angry if he knew in what way his book is being used by our inferior in house Svekomaniac troll, Puuha-Pete.

---------- Post added 2010-07-01 at 19:57 ----------



"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'.

Charlotta Hedberg "Finland-Swedish wheel on immigration", 2004

2) In regards to linguistic stability, or rather instability in the case of Finland. McRae expressed retrospective critisism for Finland-Swedes, who according to him settled with too little in 1919 and 1922 when language acts and consitution was drafted. Finland-Swedes got their language as the status of national language but it was left without all territorial guarantees, which would have been extremely important for a little, but strongly territorially-bounded minority.

"For the mainland provinces, the Finnish-speaking parties and leadership studiously avoided self-goverment for Swedish speakers but instead offered cultural concessions - most notably administrative autonomy for Swedish schools and a Swedish diocese - that were sufficient to satisfy moderate Swedish-speakers and to discourage activists from striving for more. As our previous analysis has suggested at several points, a retrospective view of subsequent language development strongly suggest that the centre-oriented Swedish-speaking leadership made a flawed decision in accepting this settlement, though whether more could have been achieved at that point by harder bargaining is difficult to asses".

(centre vs. peripheral has been the common dichotomy to describe the difference between Finland-Swedes at rural areas and around Helsingfors - my add)

"One can debate further whether Finland's formula for reciprocity spells full justice for vastly unequal collectivities. The language laws specify the language of a local majority as the main working language of a goverment office; among other things this means that all central goverment offices operate in primarly Finnish and have higher second-language requirements for Swedish-speaking than Finnish speaking employeed"

On this statement Kenneth McRae was a bit ahead of his time. He critizized the way Finland and especially Svenskfinland was being almost completely finnicized because of the flexible territoriality principle; the powerfull Finnish domestic immigration to Swedish-speaking parts of the country managed these immigrants to transform the administrative units of these regions entirely to Finnish-speaking.

Last remnants of the fixed territorial protection the Finland-Swedes enjoyed was being wiped in the constitional reform of 1999/2000 after that 6/7 principal courts where the working language (ämbetspråk) was Swedish have been annihilated, together with all attorney districts and all six regional police districts which operated in Swedish. As a result, the access for Swedish-speakers to public administration in their own language has been made in practise in the same level as with Somali language, (apart from written documents maybe, which are still in two language).


"One factor for instability is that Finland's language legislation, unlike that of Belgium or Switzerland, is based on flexible rather than fixed linguistic territoriality, except in the Åland islands, where Swedish enjoys a permanently protected special status".

Finland - marginal case for bicommunalism, Kenneth McRae, 1988.

In a nuttshell, language peace, language (in)stability. Finlands bi-lingual structure provides an excellent mechanism to subjugate minority nation with language change = assimilation.

"Our general verdict on flexible territoriality in mainland Finland must be carefully qualified: as a formula for linguistic change and accommodation with minimal conflict , it has been a considerable success; as method for providing minority-language stability or protection, it has not succeeded".


I asked

Where have McRae stated that "Finland-Swedes did a terrible mistake for settling with too little in 1919 and 1923"?
Where have McRae criticized Finland for "not applying territorial principle"?
Please answer the questions. I find only other peoples comments on McRaes work. Not McRaes own words.

[PeterThaGreat]

Motor,

do you seriously understand how desperate you look?. We are trying to decent discussion and you show up with trolls aimed at my persona.

It would seriously help if you had read the book.

Kenneth McRae retrospectively critized the Swedish-speaking politicians who settle with too little as Swedish in Finland was left without proper, fixed territorial guarantees.

"For the mainland provinces, the Finnish-speaking parties and leadership studiously avoided self-goverment for Swedish speakers but instead offered cultural concessions - most notably administrative autonomy for Swedish schools and a Swedish diocese - that were sufficient to satisfy moderate Swedish-speakers and to discourage activists from striving for more. As our previous analysis has suggested at several points, a retrospective view of subsequent language development strongly suggest that the centre-oriented Swedish-speaking leadership made a flawed decision in accepting this settlement, though whether more could have been achieved at that point by harder bargaining is difficult to asses".

The lack of proper territorial protection is biggest reason for the high linguistic instability of Kenneth McRae. That's the whole theme of his work. Self-goverment stands for territorial protection, although it could also achieved without self-goverment via guarantees.



Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

Puuha-Pete, sit down and think before you answer., Hmmmm......let me think..........thinking......hmmm.......I say Svenskfinland has tried all, we've played along with Finnish inferior-complex and have tolerated all BS under the "bättre folk"-stigma. I agree with Finland-Swedish sociologist Erik Allardt:

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'."McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'

Everything has been tried buddy,

"A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

I think the best the advance the minority issues from Swedish side, is metamorphically speaking to give blow right to jaw of the majority, this blow should so massive and firm that you could not even comreherend, understand? No remorse. Taking the rights that belongs to us by whatever it takes.

[Eldritch]

Yes, I have the print version. Ofcourse. It's a basic staple for everyone interested in ethnic-relations and Finland.

So is the printed version different from the online one or not?

I've placed a hold on the print edition via HelMet (https://www.helmet.fi/search~S9*fin/X) and it is currently in transit. I expect to get on Monday. If it turns out that there is no difference between the content of the online and the print versions, you will (again) have been caught in a lie.


McRae would be very angry if he knew in what way his book is being used by our inferior in house Svekomaniac troll, Puuha-Pete.


Why not look him up on Facebook, send him a link to this thread and invite him to join in? ;)

[PeterThaGreat]

Ouh.......no.......what is the "lie" this time, maybe it's of the same magnitude than the last time you caught me "lying", when I accidently wrote Scandinavian eventhough the author had used the the term "Nordic".

I believe the books are identical, in the google-version however about 3/4 pages are left blank. Although, my print version may be different since I have the most recent edit (1999), I think google-version is from 1997. But the differences should be minimal.

I have used direct citats from the book. Anyway, I find your little detective campaign rather cute, although it would nice if you could contribute to the discussion something else as well, you see, the big picture hardly changes despite of the little semantic gimmicks ("Scandinavian vs. "Nordic"). In other words, Finns are still the conveyors of an Arctic culture and Kenneth McRae still described Finland linguistic milieu through two concepts, linguistic peace and linguistic (in)stability. Moreover, irrespective of the versions, according to McRae, lack of proper, fized territorial protection is still the main issue behind Svenskfinlands rapid finnization and the diminishing cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers.

[Eldritch]

Ouh.......no.......what is the "lie" this time, maybe it's of the same magnitude than the last time you caught me "lying", when I accidently wrote Scandinavian eventhough the author had used the the term "Nordic".

It would be interesting to know where you managed to find Kirby's quote. I assume it was somewhere online, where it had been erroneously quoted from Dutton's book. The other possibility is that Kirby's quote (where-ever you found it) is correct but Dutton himself misquoted Kirby.


I believe the books are identical, in the google-version however about 3/4 pages are left blank. Although, my print version may be different since I have the most recent edit (1999), I think google-version is from 1997. But the differences should be minimal.


Is the Google version (3/4 of the pages blank) you mention the same one I posted a link to yesterday?

If not, provide the link to it please.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 08:59 ----------


it would nice if you could contribute to the discussion something else as well

First things first. We haven't even gotten to the point of actually discussing the topic, and you're already having difficulties keeping your story straight.

EDIT:

Btw, someone with pretensions at achieving the status of a half-baked autodidact will no doubt be grateful when I tell him that checking someone's sources is not, or at least should not be, a detective campaign. Since you are a big fan of the concept of peer review I thought I'd share that with you.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 09:03 ----------


Moreover, irrespective of the versions, according to McRae, lack of proper, fized territorial protection is still the main issue behind Svenskfinlands rapid finnization and the diminishing cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers.

On which page (your version) does McRae say that?

[PeterThaGreat]

Stop trolling!

The quote from Kirby I got from the book Finnuit.




On which page (your version) does McRae say that?

The theme appears throughout the book, I don't remember whether it is explicitly stated as such or not but that's pretty his verdict over the downfall of the Swedish-speaking regions of the country.

He certainly explicitly critisized the Finnish settlement of flexible territoriality, which itself contributes to linguistic instability of the minority. That means he critisized the settlement which left Svenskfinland without fixed territorial guarantees, which have been the norm in all other bi-and multilingual societies (f.e Cantons in Switzerland, where the linguistic status won't be changing de jure no matter how Germans will come to the given non-German Canton).

Moreoever, McRae critized retrospectively the fact that Swedish-speakers settled with too little, and compromised too much, he explicitly concluded that Swedish-speaking leaders made a "flawed decision".

I believe that your and Motor's suspicions and trolling can be seen through the light that you absolutely no idea what's is being discussed, more ovet the the whole vocabulary is probably rather unclear to you. But that's ok, I will be helping you guys. Again, nothing controversial is being stated either, as already disclosed one has to be retard or a Finn for not seeing the problems of bi-lingual arrangement from the perspective of the cultural integrity of a minority. Kenneth McRae is Western humanist and he obviously has a bias towards David (instead of the Goljat = Finns).

[Motörhead Remember Me]

It would seriously help if you had read the book. I've read several of the books and articles you've claimed to have read and found decapitated quotes and what is worse, edited quotes and false recitements.




Kenneth McRae retrospectively critized the Swedish-speaking politicians who settle with too little as Swedish in Finland was left without proper, fixed territorial guarantees. "For the mainland provinces, the Finnish-speaking parties and leadership studiously avoided self-goverment for Swedish speakers but instead offered cultural concessions - most notably administrative autonomy for Swedish schools and a Swedish diocese - that were sufficient to satisfy moderate Swedish-speakers and to discourage activists from striving for more. As our previous analysis has suggested at several points, a retrospective view of subsequent language development strongly suggest that the centre-oriented Swedish-speaking leadership made a flawed decision in accepting this settlement, though whether more could have been achieved at that point by harder bargaining is difficult to asses".


Peter, is this a quote of McRae?


The lack of proper territorial protection is biggest reason for the high linguistic instability of Kenneth McRae. That's the whole theme of his work. Self-goverment stands for territorial protection, although it could also achieved without self-goverment via guarantees.

No, as everyone can read from the link, that is definetly not McRaes whole theme. McRae explores three different countries with linguistic minorities and studies their different solutions.


"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'."McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'
Peter, you are still not quoting McRae!!

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 10:30 ----------

Peter. Answer my question:

For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

Puuha-Pete, sit down and think before you answer.

[PeterThaGreat]

^ I explained lot of the issues in my previous post.

I am not sure which book are you referring to in the book Conflict and Compromise in Multi-lingual societies, case Finland, McRae indeed states this. And with theme of his book I obviously meant the conclusions he came after he did proper analysis of the situation of Finland-Swedes.


The theme (lack of proper territorial protection) appears throughout the book, I don't remember whether it is explicitly stated as such or not but that's pretty his verdict over the downfall of the Swedish-speaking regions of the country.

He certainly explicitly critisized the Finnish settlement of flexible territoriality, which itself contributes to linguistic instability of the minority. That means he critisized the settlement which left Svenskfinland without fixed territorial guarantees, which have been the norm in all other bi-and multilingual societies (f.e Cantons in Switzerland, where the linguistic status won't be changing de jure no matter how Germans will come to the given non-German Canton).

Moreoever, McRae critized retrospectively the fact that Swedish-speakers settled with too little, and compromised too much, he explicitly concluded that Swedish-speaking leaders made a "flawed decision".

Now tell me which of citats are falsely edited?


Peter, is this a quote of McRae?

From letter to letter, from the waist down. You do realize that incase you cannot deliver better arguments, I am going to decapitate you with my bare hands. Most of the citats (not all) I had in the thread starter are from the last conclusive chapter, chapter number six where he summarizes the results of his study.


Peter. Answer my question:


WTF is wrong with you? Your question has already been answered.


Hmmmm......let me think..........thinking......hmmm.......I say Svenskfinland has tried all, we've played along with Finnish inferior-complex and have tolerated all BS under the "bättre folk"-stigma. I agree with Finland-Swedish sociologist Erik Allardt:

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'."McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'

Everything has been tried buddy,

"A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

I think the best the advance the minority issues from Swedish side, is metamorphically speaking to give blow right to jaw of the majority, this blow should so massive and firm that you could not even comreherend, understand? No remorse. Taking the rights that belongs to us by whatever it takes.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I have used direct citats from the book.

Like you did here?
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=923&page=3&highlight=jussila+topelius


Anyway, I find your little detective campaign rather cute, We must use the same source if we discuss the source, don't you think?

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 10:45 ----------


I explained lot of the issues in my previous post.
I am not sure which book are you referring to in the book Conflict and Compromise in Multi-lingual societies, case Finland, McRae indeed states this. And with theme of his book I obviously meant the conclusions he came after he did proper analysis of the situation of Finland-Swedes.
Now tell me which of citats are falsely edited?
From letter to letter, from the waist down. You do realize that incase you cannot deliver better arguments, I am going to decapitate you with my bare hands.

Just quote McRae directly.


Your question has already been answered.

Read my question again and answer it without running in verbal circles:

For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

Puuha-Pete, sit down and think before you answer.

[Eldritch]

The theme appears throughout the book, I don't remember whether it is explicitly stated as such or not but that's pretty his verdict over the downfall of the Swedish-speaking regions of the country.



Don't remember?

That's why people have books, so that they don't have to remember everything. Since you have the book, look it up. And if it's a constant theme throughtout the book, give me two or three of the best examples, and the pages they can be found on. Anytime before Monday (when I expect to pick up my copy from the local library) will be fine.

And while you're at it, also cough up the link to the online version of the book that contains only 1/4 of its actual content.

[PeterThaGreat]

Like you did here?
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=923&page=3&highlight=jussila+topelius

We must use the same source if we discuss the source, don't you think?

Indeed, like I did there.

Yes, indeed we must use the same source, I already helped you out disclosing that most of the citats I used was from the last chapter of the book, chapter six, where McRae summarizes his analysis.

Now, you have to get the sources, do you even realize how disgusting you are? You claim be being a lying manipulator, since you cannot find citat from googles promotional edition which leaves 3/4 pages blank. You are low-life scumback, a spineless human havoc.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 10:49 ----------


Don't remember?

That's why people have books, so that they don't have to remember everything. Since you have the book, look it up. And if it's a constant theme throughtout the book, give me two or three of the best examples, and the pages they can be found on. Anytime before Monday (when I expect to pick up my copy from the local library) will be fine.

And while you're at it, also cough up the link to the online version of the book that contains only 1/4 of its actual content.

Like I already said, chapter 6 provides the conclusions of the study, where the proper summary of the linguistic peace and linguistic instability are provided. I have already provided all the needed citats. From the citats you can already read everything I've stated.

Do you have any idea what this means? Please explain to me, just so that I know we are not completely from another planet. Do you know what is difference between fixed and flexible territoriality?

"One factor for instability is that Finland's language legislation, unlike that of Belgium or Switzerland, is based on flexible rather than fixed linguistic territoriality, except in the Åland islands, where Swedish enjoys a permanently protected special status".

Kenneth McRae, 1988 (another book)

[Eldritch]

Like I already said, chapter 6 provides the conclusions of the study, where the proper summary of the linguistic peace and linguistic instability are provided.


Very well. So Chapter 6 of McRae's book, according to you, argues that "[the] lack of proper, fized territorial protection is still the main issue behind Svenskfinlands rapid finnization and the diminishing cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers". I await reading it eagerly.



I have already provided all the needed citats. From the citats you can already read everything I've stated.

There's one more thing that's missing, namely the link to the incomplete online version of the book.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 10:57 ----------




Do you have any idea what this means? Please explain to me, just so that I know we are not completely from another planet.

"One factor for instability is that Finland's language legislation, unlike that of Belgium or Switzerland, is based on flexible rather than fixed linguistic territoriality, except in the Åland islands, where Swedish enjoys a permanently protected special status".

Kenneth McRae, 1988 (another book)

Which one?

[PeterThaGreat]

Very well. So Chapter 6 of McRae's book, according to you, argues that "[the] lack of proper, fized territorial protection is still the main issue behind Svenskfinlands rapid finnization and the diminishing cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers". I await reading it eagerly.



There's one more thing that's missing, namely the link to the incomplete online version of the book.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 10:57 ----------



Which one?


Its actually from peer-reviwed article.

Finland: Marginal Case of Bicommunalism?

Anyway, now is your turn.

[Eldritch]

Its actually from peer-reviwed article.

Finland: Marginal Case of Bicommunalism?

Published in which journal?

EDIT:

Never mind, you copypasted it from this abstract:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3330463


Anyway, now is your turn.

To do what?

EDIT:

Still no link to the incomplete online version of McRae's book.

[PeterThaGreat]

Eldricth, I won't be taking part in your trolls anymore. I am done with you. You are a clown.


If you have nothing else to do than troll my thread pls dont contribute at all.

You are a looser. And I am still waiting the realization of the claims of me manipulating sources. Pretty hefty accusations.

[Eldritch]

And I am still waiting the realization of the claims of me manipulating sources.

This immediately after you say you won't even acknowledge my existence anymore. :rolleyes:

If you aren't dishonest about your sources, then it should be very easy for you to answer questions about them.

[PeterThaGreat]

1) "Professor Setälä, the influental parliamentarian and linguistic expert, demanded that the Swedish-speakers choose between sharing power at the centre and cantonment in the Swedish-speaking regions. Not one of the Swedish-speaking leaders seems to have argued in reply that a small minority may need elements of both strategies in order to survive"

2) "Our general verdict on flexible territoriality in mainland Finland must be carefully qualified: as a formula for linguistic change and accommodation with minimal conflict , it has been a considerable success; as method for providing minority-language stability or protection, it has not succeeded".

3) "A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

McRae, 1999

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 15:39 ----------




I'm both a retard and Finnish, but I understand things better than you since being both retard and Finnish makes me neutral and objective.


Yep, yep, the Finns correct, other's wrong. Japanese have similar suspicion towards foreigners and messianic believe on the righteousness over their own views.

"The image of Swedish-speakers as as ' priviledged' minority' is cited regularly by Finnish-speaking politicians, intellectuals and journalists, usually in conjunction with an attack on existing minority rights or in opposition to proposals for their improvement. In turn, these attacks have been challenged and refuted by Swedish-speakers, but even among academics this debate has been unfocused and lacking definitional rigor"

You Motor, are the anthesis to neutrality and objectivity, and it was your fanatism that got you demoderated. You are a man of emotion, not man of rationality, that may work in bedroom but not in discussions about important issues, such as the cultural integrity of Swedish-speakers.

[Eldritch]

The link to the incomplete online version of McRae's book, PTG.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 17:42 ----------


1) "Professor Setälä, the influental parliamentarian and linguistic expert, demanded that the Swedish-speakers choose between sharing power at the centre and cantonment in the Swedish-speaking regions. Not one of the Swedish-speaking leaders seems to have argued in reply that a small minority may need elements of both strategies in order to survive"

2) "Our general verdict on flexible territoriality in mainland Finland must be carefully qualified: as a formula for linguistic change and accommodation with minimal conflict , it has been a considerable success; as method for providing minority-language stability or protection, it has not succeeded".

3) "A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

McRae, 1999

Page numbers?

[Tuohikirje]

The image of Swedish-speakers as as ' priviledged' minority' is cited regularly by Finnish-speaking politicians, intellectuals and journalists, usually in conjunction with an attack on existing minority rights or in opposition to proposals for their improvement. In turn, these attacks have been challenged and refuted by Swedish-speakers, but even among academics this debate has been unfocused and lacking definitional rigor"


Fact = attack.

[Aino]

The link to the incomplete online version of McRae's book, PTG.


Eldritch, you probably did not notice it, but the link you yourself provided to McRae's book shows an incomplete version of it.

[Eldritch]

Eldritch, you probably did not notice it, but the link you yourself provided to McRae's book shows an incomplete version of it.

I've been waiting for PTG to tell me whether that's the link he's talking about or not. See post #20. After all it hardly seems like 75% of the text is missing.

EDIT:

And like I said, I'll get the print version from the library on Monday. I'll be amazed if PTG can prove in any way that he has it like he claims, much less that he has read it.

[Aino]

I've been waiting for PTG to tell me whether that's the link he's talking about or not. See post #20. After all it hardly seems like 75% of the text is missing.

A quick browsing shows me that about 60% of the pages are missing*. Of course, this is just a side note, which has nothing to do with the content of the book.

*To be exact, 259 pages are missing out of a total of 429 if I did not get it wrong. Please excuse me for being so anally retentive. I can't really help it. :ashamed:

[PeterThaGreat]

Nice Aino. Thumbs up for you.

I am pissed that Eldritch has managed to turn my thread into troll-pit.

[Eldritch]

Nice Aino. Thumbs up for you.

I am pissed that Eldritch has managed to turn my thread into troll-pit.

It cracks me up what a self-congratulating twerp you are. So is that link the one you have in mind or not? Yes or no?

[PeterThaGreat]

And like I said, I'll get the print version from the library on Monday. I'll be amazed if PTG can prove in any way that he has it like he claims, much less that he has read it.

You said exactly the same in regards to Finnuit. Which content I allegedly also manipulated. :thumbsup:


So is that link the one you have in mind or not?

Dude, I am completely perplexed over what you are looking for. You posted a link to the book and persistenly asked me to post a link to the same book, WTF is going in your head? Are just here to piss me off? You are doing very good job in it, congrats.

[Eldritch]

You said exactly the same in regards to Finnuit. Which content I allegedly also manipulated. :thumbsup:

I didn't say you "manipulated" the content. One cannot manipulate something one has not read.

[PeterThaGreat]

I didn't say you "manipulated" the content. One cannot manipulate something one has not read.

Okay, that is the new version:thumbsup:, anyway, is it possible that you keep your mouth shut up until you have actually something to say about the issue, I wonder what gives you the fervent energy to accuse me before you even deliver anything. It should go the other way around, buddy.

[Eldritch]

Dude, I am completely perplexed over what you are looking for. You posted a link to the book and persistenly asked me to post a link to the same book, WTF is going in your head? Are just here to piss me off? You are doing very good job in it, congrats.

I want you to answer this very simple question: does the link I posted lead to the same online version of McRae's book that you have referred to several times in this thread, the one you say has 3/4 of the actual content missing -- or does it lead to a different one?

I cannot put it in any simpler terms than that.

---------- Post added 2010-07-02 at 20:40 ----------


Okay, that is the new version:thumbsup:, anyway, is it possible that you keep your mouth shut up until you have actually something to say about the issue, I wonder what gives you the fervent energy to accuse me before you even deliver anything.

I don't understand what you mean by this. I am not accusing you of anything. I'm completely mystified by your reluctance to answer simple and straightforward questions about the sources you use.


It should go the other way around, buddy.

Clarify.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Indeed, like I did there.
Thank you. You admit to have misused sources, I'm glad for you that you finally admitted this.


McRae summarizes his analysis.
So, does McRae say with the exact same words that you have claimed that he has used?


Now, you have to get the sources, do you even realize how disgusting you are? I understand you think I'm really, really disgusting since I have cornered you several times for not only misusing sources and pulling sentences out of their context but also for lying.

You claim be being a lying manipulator, since you cannot find citat from googles promotional edition which leaves 3/4 pages blank. You are low-life scumback, a spineless human havoc. I have called you a liar several times because I have caught you lying several times. I promise to continue to call you a liar if you continue to lie. It is up to you to get rid of this reputation by not lying any more. Isn't that a reasonable way to handle this?

[PeterThaGreat]

I have never manipulated nor lied over sources, bizarre interpretations and far-fetched ideas on sources are your cup of tea. I take huge pride by being able to play it fair.

Anyway, is there any comments from your behalf over the citats I've quated, you have yourself fanatically propagated the idea of Finland-Swedes having "all they need" and being priviledged, as pretty much all Finnish intellectuals (atleast according to Kenneth McRae), so is McRae totally misinformed or complete missed the Finnish view which according to you harmonized and analytical by default?:p

Tell me Motor, how Finland-Swedes should fight for the their rights and how should we act in order to get better territorial guarantees for Svenskfinland, you do understand that fighting for cultural integrity is the existential right for every nation/minority/people, right? Should we continue being overly politically correct and non-confrontational or should we adopt tactics from Black-movement from the 1960s America? Now, when you think about these issues, try to be analytical and look the issue from the viewpoint of a minority, not through the glasses of Finnish national inferior-complex and ethno-natiolism. I know it's going to hard for you, but atleast give a try, I won't hurt you.

[Eldritch]

PTG;

As you perhaps are aware, McRae's book is number three in a series of four books, detailing the situation in several multilingual countries. How would you say the situation in Finland differs from the ones described in the first two installments of the series, as described by McRae? Please reply in your own words instead of copypasting something from the net.

[Tuohikirje]

You are not progressing.


Finnish national inferior-complex and ethno-natiolism

[PeterThaGreat]

PTG;

As you perhaps are aware, McRae's book is number three in a series of four books, detailing the situation in several multilingual countries. How would you say the situation in Finland differs from the ones described in the first two installments of the series, as described by McRae? Please reply in your own words instead of copypasting something from the net.

I haven't read the Canada and Belgium cases. What I know, though, is that in these countries the national-language status is accompanied with heavy territorial guarantees. The majorities in Belgium and Canada are unable to weaken to status of the "minority" nations. In Finland, the majority has almost full political control over the rights of Swedish-speakers. This is biggest problem, from Finland-Swedish perspective.

The Finnish inferior-complex is sociologic reality, not something I made up.

[Eldritch]

I haven't read the Canada and Belgium cases.

You haven't read the part of the study dealing with case Finland either. If you had, you would know that the first two parts deal with Switzerland and Belgium, and McRae makes comparisons between the language policies in the three countries in the concluding chapter (the one you suggested I read) of the book on Finland.

It would not be necessary to have read parts one and two to answer my question, only part three, the one that deals with Finland.

[Tuohikirje]

You are not progressing.
Second reminder.


The Finnish inferior-complex is sociologic reality

[PeterThaGreat]

You haven't read the part of the study dealing with case Finland either. If you had, you would know that the first two parts deal with Switzerland and Belgium, and McRae makes comparisons between the language policies in the three countries in the concluding chapter (the one you suggested I read) of the book on Finland.

It would not be necessary to have read parts one and two to answer my question, only part three, the one that deals with Finland.

I don't what you mean (as usual), the two other cases are two seperate books, they do not come in the form of the same package. The last chapter of case Finland deals quite little with Belgium and Canada, apart from the very last phrases, on last page.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I have never manipulated nor lied over sources, bizarre interpretations and far-fetched ideas on sources are your cup of tea.
Oh, yes you have. it's the only thing you do consistently. Only a few examples, a comprehensive list would be a thread of it's own:
"Helsinki was 99% Swedish 50 years ago"
"The name Finland was never used prior to 1809, only Österland"
"Finlandswedes are genetically closer to Swedes than Finns"
"The gap between Finlandswedes and Finns is the largest genetical gap in Europe"
"Finns are north Asian people"
"Finland is engaged in genocide against Swedishspeakers"
The above statement are all "bizarre and far-fetched" and they have all been provided by you.

I take huge pride by being able to play it fair.
But this above is really, really the bizarrest of them all.

Anyway, is there any comments from your behalf over the citats I've quated, you have yourself fanatically propagated the idea of Finland-Swedes having "all they need" and being priviledged, as pretty much all Finnish intellectuals (atleast according to Kenneth McRae), so is McRae totally misinformed or complete missed the Finnish view which according to you harmonized and analytical by default?:p
I have always provided a moderate and realistic view of the situation. If I was fanatical I would write differently, don't you think?
You have hated me from the day back in 2007 I wrote that "Hang on, are you saying that Finlandswedes are pure ethnic Swedes with NO Finnish blood or genes?" and then proved you wrong hundreds of times, not only about that issue but so many other.

My only comment on the above is that I do not know who's summary you are reciting.


Tell me Motor, how Finland-Swedes should fight for the their rights and how should we act in order to get better territorial guarantees for Svenskfinland,
By being modest and acknowledge that things are generally good, in some cases damned good but in certain fields they could be better. This is the real world. It's not so bad out here.

you do understand that fighting for cultural integrity is the existential right for every nation/minority/people, right? Yes, I agree. But tell me, is Finlandswedish cultural integrity at stake somehow? Are Swedishspeakers forced to give up folkcostumes and are not allowed to speak Swedish? Are Finlandswedes a nation within the nation? I dont think so. Finlandswedish culture, people, mentality, food, traditions e.t.c. differ more Swedish culture than from Finnish culture. Everyone in Finland knows this.


Should we continue being overly politically correct and non-confrontational or should we adopt tactics from Black-movement from the 1960s America? But Peter dear, what is the issue? You have not yet clarified in which way Finlandswedish cultural integrity is at stake? I have never met oppressed Finlnadswedes apart from being one myself I meet some regularly and they seem to be satisfied. You have only been engaged in wild accusations and arrogant contempt aimed at anything Finnish, be it language, culture, food, people.


Now, when you think about these issues, try to be analytical and look the issue from the viewpoint of a minority, not through the glasses of Finnish national inferior-complex and ethno-natiolism.
Ooops. Now that you put inferiority and ethno-nationalism into the sentence I can only understand it the way that you were adressing the issue the from your approach.

I approach this issue with complete analytical thinking and I have done it fro day one.

I know it's going to hard for you, but atleast give a try, I won't hurt you.

You're right. I have never been hurt by my analytical approach on Finlnadswedishness. I have more often been amused.

---------- Post added 2010-07-05 at 21:54 ----------


I haven't read the Canada and Belgium cases. What I know, though, is that in these countries the national-language status is accompanied with heavy territorial guarantees. See? You have not even a clue what the bigger picture is. You have quoted McRae (even though we still are uncertain that it really is McRae you have quoted) for a very long time now but you are still not aware what his book is about!
We have read the book only lately and already know why it is good to read the Belgium and Switzerland chapters as well.
McRae discusses three countries and why there are different solutions for linguistic status. When you get past that you'll understand why territorial guarantees are impossible in Finland.

The majorities in Belgium and Canada are unable to weaken to status of the "minority" nations. In Finland, the majority has almost full political control over the rights of Swedish-speakers. This is biggest problem, from Finland-Swedish perspective. Is it so? Where has this been stated?


The Finnish inferior-complex is sociologic reality, not something I made up I'm beginning to believe this is real. After all, you and Grynda have written many sentences reeking inferiority complex long way.

[Eldritch]

I don't [know] what you mean

Let me break it down for you then.

1. The parts of the Conflict and Compromise in Multilingual Societies series are as follows: 1. Switzerland 2. Belgium 3. Finland 4. Canada.

I spent 90 secs. Googling but based on that was unable to discover whether or not there are any further parts to the series. Not that it's important.

2. You claimed that the first two parts deal with "Canada and Belgium". This is not correct.

3. I asked you to briefly summarize, in your own words, what kind of similarities and differences McRae finds in the linguistic policies of the countries he deals with in parts one to three of his study/book series.

Not only were you unable to reply, you did not even know which countries McRae compares Finland with.

Now excuse me while I make my conclusions on the above, combined with what I've previously learned of your reading habits.

[PeterThaGreat]

See? You have not even a clue what the bigger picture is. You have quoted McRae (even though we still are uncertain that it really is McRae you have quoted) for a very long time now but you are still not aware what his book is about!
We have read the book only lately and already know why it is good to read the Belgium and Switzerland chapters as well.
McRae discusses three countries and why there are different solutions for linguistic status. When you get past that you'll understand why territorial guarantees are impossible in Finland.
Is it so? Where has this been stated?

I'm beginning to believe this is real. After all, you and Grynda have written many sentences reeking inferiority complex long way.

Motor as usual you have no clue.

In the case of Finland, McRae obviously covers Canada and Belgium, obviously not in detail, but that is not the point.

as I wrote this is biggest difference with the Finnish model in contrast to other bi-multi-lingual regimes.


I haven't read the Canada and Belgium cases. What I know, though, is that in these countries the national-language status is accompanied with heavy territorial guarantees. The majorities in Belgium and Canada are unable to weaken to status of the "minority" nations. In Finland, the majority has almost full political control over the rights of Swedish-speakers. This is biggest problem, from Finland-Swedish perspective.


Is it so? Where has this been stated?

It is being stated in the book by Kenneth McRae in the form that McRae discloses that the present linguistic instability in Finland is to due lack of fixed territorial guarantees. In addition McRae is making a notion that the Finnish majority has almost full control over the rights of Swedish-speakers. There's no substansive linguistic instability in other bi-lingual regimes, because the rights of minority nations in these countries enjoy firm fixed territorial guarantees which protects them from assimilation.

Why would we need to read the other chapters as well? As in the case of Finland, most of the content is just the general history of these countries from the ethno-linguistic point of view. Besides, the Finland case provides all the necessary comparison to other bi-or multi-lingual societies.


1) Incase you had actually read what is being written in the thread, you'd actually understand by cultural integrity I am implying the access for Finland-Swedes to the administration with their own mother-tongue.


Okay,

well incase you read anything about the thread the issue is about the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes manifested in their access to administrative services in their mother-tongue, not about the ethnic culture of Finland-Swedes.

In Svenskfinland, this should be guaranteed practical means with territorial guarantees, which obviously depend on political will, they'd could be easily constructed in away which does no harm to the cultural integrity of Finns in the Swedish-speaking regions. We don't need the state to protect the Eastern-Swedish folklore of Finland-Swedes. That is something we are able to do ourselves. That is something we are in full control.

If unilingual Sweden has been gradually building territorial guarantees for Finns in Sweden, then I am sure that officially bi-lingual Finland is capable to do that as well for Swedish-speakers. The same can be said in respect to uni-lingual Italy's policy towards its Germans, f.e. Bi-lingual country cannot work in the way where the status of the other national language is being weakened by the majority constantly.

2) I am glad that you were finally able to manage to turn the issue from my person and alleged behavior to the actual topic. I myself, believe that the biggest underlying problem is the fact that we have and are being extremely moderate, to the extent that is working against us.

"A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

Kenneth McRae, 1999.

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic'."

Charlotta Hedberg, 2005.

I think you Motor sound like a politician Soviet union, whenever there was a problem the advice was always to increase the socialism......whenever there's a problem with the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes the solution is to become more modest and agree with Motorheads facts, right?


2. You claimed that the first two parts deal with "Canada and Belgium". This is not correct.

Yep, that is not correct indeed. In the Finlands-case McRae throws comparisons to these other countries in a rather arbitrary way, so reader has no clue which case came from first and which second, although, but I do understand why the reader of Finlands case have to aware in what order the books have been published, they represents seperate works.


I'm beginning to believe this is real. After all, you and Grynda have written many sentences reeking inferiority complex long way.

Don't worry, after all when you start to actually read the book, you will know lot more about the Finnish inferior complex and its role in the ethno-linguistic relations between Finland-Swedes and Finns. Eldricth, can you quote Duttons book, the part where he is himself referring to Kenneth McRae?

[PeterThaGreat]

Are Finlandswedes a nation within the nation? I dont think so. Finlandswedish culture, people, mentality, food, traditions e.t.c. differ more Swedish culture than from Finnish culture. Everyone in Finland knows this.

Spain recognizes officially three nations (nacionalidades) and Russia recognizes the Fenno-Ugric groups as "nations" as well. I personally perceive the issue from the traditional Finland-Swedes perspective on our constitution according to which the national languages of Finland are the language of the nationalities, Finnish and Swedish respective, not the languages of the Finnish state.

Anyway, could you wire a source which confirms your above speculations. I remember Finland-Swedish etnologist Bo Lönnqvist, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_L%C3%B6nnqvist, articles published in SFVs (Svenska folkskolans vänner) annual book, according to his studies Finland-Swedish folklore like dialects are nothing but old Eastern Swedish folklore. On the other hand, the mentality of the two nations is quite heavily covered topic in Finnish sociology, and to put it mildly I've never seen a study which would support your claims. So, unlike your "analytical" head formulates its, there's no one in Finland who "knows" it like you, apart from couple inferior-complexed Fennochauvinists aside.

"Samhällsklimatet efter krigen inbegriper en fosterländsk idé om ett folk med två språk. Detta folk borde ju då ha ett folklynne. Och om ett folk uppfattas som lika med en nationalitet så borde det finnas bara en 'nationalkaraktär'. Detta åter strider mot historien och den tidigare uppfattningen och inte minst folks vardagserfarenheter."

"Med finnarna har finlandssvenskarna åter en viktig politisk gemenskap, men detta innebär inte en etniskt gemensam grupptillhörighet"

"Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdesvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar".

Leif Höckerstedt, Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar, 2000.

I personally think that two linguistic groups can never carry the same culture, making claim that the Germanic/Swedish-speaking culture of Finland-Swedes would be closer to Arctic Finnish/Uralic-speaking culture than to the Swedish culture across the sea sounds very controversial to my ears.

Besides, how on earth Finland-Swedes and Finns could share the same mentality when the languages of the group already by default give a very different mind-set to perceive issues.

"Språket uppges ge en mental model",

"Där svenskspråkiga från barnsben tillämpar en indoeuropeisk, rörelseinriktad modell utrustas den finskspråkiga individen med en fenno-ugrisk, gestaltinriktad modell. Hiltunen tyckte sig få praktisk erfarenhet av skillnaderna språkgrupperna emellan då han tillsammans med norska experimentella psykologen Frode Strømsnes granskade hur svensk- och finskspråkiga uttrycker sig på film.

Där finskspråkiga var inriktade på gestalter och figurer och deras inbördes relationer var svenskspråkiga inriktade på rörelse och handling. Enligt Hiltunen är skillnaden i mentala modeller utslagsgivande också i flera andra sammanhang.

Enligt en studie från år 1996 råkar till exempel svenskspråkiga ut för 40 procent färre arbetsolyckor än sina finskspråkiga landsmän.

Andra studier visar att finskspråkiga både ådrar sig fler idrottsskador och olycksfall i hemmet än svenskspråkiga.

Enligt Hiltunen beror det här på att svenskspråkiga med sitt indoeuropeiska förhållningssätt är bättre anpassade till västerländskt produktionssätt. Mer du med det praktiskt livet, alltså".


http://www.vasabladet.fi/Story/?linkID=81052

[Karhunkynsi]

Spain recognizes officially three nations (nacionalidades) and Russia recognizes the Fenno-Ugric groups as "nations" as well. I personally perceive the issue from the traditional Finland-Swedes perspective on our constitution according to which the national languages of Finland are the language of the nationalities, Finnish and Swedish respective, not the languages of the Finnish state.

You think Republic of Finland should term Finlandswedes as ethnic minority against the wish of vaste majority of Swedophone Finns ?

I actually sort of agree with you on this one. It would further split the Swedophone minority and cause havoc. Finlandswedes would be divided into two groups, those that would consider themselves as ethnic swedophone Finns and those who would consider themselves as ethnic Finlandswedes. Swedophones now make up that 5% of population (massive!) all are lumped under umbrella Finlandswede.

After your ethnification process perhaps 2% would consider themselves as ethniks. Your idea is actually very wellcome and it would further advance my fennochauvinistic-inferiority-complexed-fennoman goals. It would also basically destroy RKP as it would become 2% party while the 3% would after the ethnification process choose Kokoomus (south) or perhaps even Kepu (west) at rural regions.

You really are not a thinker Pete.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Motor as usual you have no clue. Is it so?


In the case of Finland, McRae obviously covers Canada and Belgium, obviously not in detail, but that is not the point. Not the point?


It is being stated in the book by Kenneth McRae in the form that McRae discloses that the present linguistic instability in Finland is to due lack of fixed territorial guarantees. Please quote McRae directly. Plese show his heavy criticism that you several times claimed he gives.

In addition McRae is making a notion that the Finnish majority has almost full control over the rights of Swedish-speakers. There's no substansive linguistic instability in other bi-lingual regimes, because the rights of minority nations in these countries enjoy firm fixed territorial guarantees which protects them from assimilation. If you read about Belgium, Switzerland and Finland from an analytical, not fanatical, perspective you may find something which is the answer to why territorial guarantees are a dead idea in Finland, both historically and culturally.


Why would we need to read the other chapters as well? Because one must understand what McRae's work is about and what the discussion which has a foundation in his work is about.


1) Incase you had actually read what is being written in the thread, you'd actually understand by cultural integrity I am implying the access for Finland-Swedes to the administration with their own mother-tongue. And is this not the case in Finland??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????
Why do I get Swedishlanguage service almost where- and whenever I want?


In Svenskfinland, this should be guaranteed practical means with territorial guarantees, which obviously depend on political will, they'd could be easily constructed in away which does no harm to the cultural integrity of Finns in the Swedish-speaking regions. We don't need the state to protect the Eastern-Swedish folklore of Finland-Swedes. That is something we are able to do ourselves. That is something we are in full control. We? You are not really Finlandswedish and you are completely detached from Högberg the fishermans reality.

If unilingual Sweden has been gradually building territorial guarantees for Finns in Sweden, then I am sure that officially bi-lingual Finland is capable to do that as well for Swedish-speakers. Sweden has not. Where did you get this idea from?


2) I am glad that you were finally able to manage to turn the issue from my person and alleged behavior to the actual topic.
Well, you are still calling me an inferior complexed fenno chauvinist nationalist.


I myself, believe that the biggest underlying problem is the fact that we have and are being extremely moderate, to the extent that is working against us. Which bring us back to the question:

For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?


"A significant part of Finlands recent high level of linguistic peace therefore stems from the minority's non-insistence on its full linguistic rights".

Kenneth McRae, 1999. Is it the fault of Finnishspeakers?


think you Motor sound like a politician Soviet union, whenever there was a problem the advice was always to increase the socialism......whenever there's a problem with the cultural integrity of Finland-Swedes the solution is to become more modest and agree with Motorheads facts, right?
What problem with cultural integrity? You just said we can maintain our "folklore" since we are in full control?


Don't worry, after all when you start to actually read the book, you will know lot more about the Finnish inferior complex and its role in the ethno-linguistic relations between Finland-Swedes and Finns.
There it is again.... You are obsessed by the thought aren't you?


Eldricth, can you quote Duttons book, the part where he is himself referring to Kenneth McRae?Oh you mean the quote of McRae you personally directed Dutton to?

[Eldritch]

Eldricth, can you quote Duttons book, the part where he is himself referring to Kenneth McRae?

I can't, because I no longer have Dutton's book. I've reteurned it to the library.

[PeterThaGreat]

Motor,

the saddest or comic thing with you is that you try present yourself in a manner where you try to desperately camouflage your Fennochauvinism and ignorance in some form in eloquent jargon.

Sweden has been building territorial guarantees for Finnish-speakers during the whole 2000s, this is something you could have read f.e today at Helsingin sanomat leading guest article by historian Janne Holmen. The guarantees mean that the service level for Finnish-speakers cannot be weakened by local political decisions, unlike the case with Swedish here in Finland. There is at the moment 18 Swedish municapalities which belong to the Finnish administrative service-providing collective.

Discussing this further with you would be like discussing wrist-watches with pigs. Karhunkynsi is not much better but atleast he is funny.

@Karhunkynsi

Finland-Swedes do not have to be defined as an ethnic-minority de jure, Finland-Swedes are that already through international treaties. I'd be happy if Finland could even harmonize those statutes in the two minority treaties of Counsil of Europe which gives territorial protection -which Finland has ratified, and which provide better and more sound territorial protection for Swedish-speaking municipalities than the very constitution and language act itself - into its national legistlation. This would give some practical safeguarding to the status of the Germanic-variant of our national language.


Is it the fault of Finnishspeakers?

100%. The reason Finland-Swedes have been such pussies is because the Finns perceive the whole language tussle very emotionally, in other words, the Finland-Swedish quest for cultural integrity is generally meet with very hostile reactions among Finns (especially by Finnish bourgheoise parties, social democrats have been more understanding for the cause of Finland-Swedes).

---------- Post added 2010-07-06 at 19:22 ----------


Finlandswedes would be divided into two groups, those that would consider themselves as ethnic swedophone Finns and those who would consider themselves as ethnic Finlandswedes. Swedophones now make up that 5% of population (massive!) all are lumped under umbrella Finlandswede.


Swedish language makes the difference between the ethnic-Finns and resident of Finland, irrespective of ethnicity. The Swedish word finländare does not translate to "Finn". It translates to Finlander.

Moreover, I am afraid this is again your stupid ideas of trying to apply your mental mindset to others, in other words you apply your own Finnish etho-linguistic nationalism to Finland-Swedes. The nationalism and loyalism to Finland showed by Finland-Swedes is quite different in contrast to Ethnic-Finns. Ethnic-Finns show a very emphasis for the notion of being "suomalainen/finne", for Finland-Swedes the nationalism shows in the pride of institution and legal order of Finland, not so much of being finländare. (Kenneth McRae, 1999). Thus, I see your little speculations as quite irrelevent.

[Tuohikirje]

for Finland-Swedes the nationalism shows in the pride of institution and legal order of Finland, not so much of being finländare

98 years of pride.

[Eldritch]

Ethnic-Finns show a very emphasis for the notion of being "suomalainen/finne", for Finland-Swedes the nationalism shows in the pride of institution and legal order of Finland, not so much of being finländare. (Kenneth McRae, 1999).

Page?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Motor,

the saddest or comic thing with you is that you try present yourself in a manner where you try to desperately camouflage your Fennochauvinism and ignorance in some form in eloquent jargon.
See? Again you call me Fennochauvinist for not sharing your radical and unrealistic personal ideology.


Sweden has been building territorial guarantees for Finnish-speakers during the whole 2000s Can you show a source where we can see that this is in practice?


Discussing this further with you would be like discussing wrist-watches with pigs. Oink, oink. But copy pasting same texts again and again and lying is very stimulating for a discussion?

Please answer my question


For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

---------- Post added 2010-07-07 at 16:11 ----------



Swedish language makes the difference between the ethnic-Finns and resident of Finland, irrespective of ethnicity. The Swedish word finländare does not translate to "Finn". It translates to Finlander. Which translates into Suomalainen.


Moreover, I am afraid this is again your stupid ideas of trying to apply your mental mindset to others, in other words you apply your own Finnish etho-linguistic nationalism to Finland-Swedes.
Stood infront of the mirror there?

The nationalism and loyalism to Finland showed by Finland-Swedes is quite different in contrast to Ethnic-Finns. How different is "quite different"?The intrested should read pages 153-164 and pull their own conclusions and not trust your simplifications.. http://books.google.fi/books?id=s8eNDR6YDlwC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=Kenneth+McRae+canadian+finland&source=bl&ots=HgeRkfqFVO&sig=MXRP21gnRDySWMO9S2xDF3199wA&hl=fi&ei=o3YrTPWmNIaBOJjH-bID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Kenneth%20McRae%20canadian%20finland&f=falseAgreed.
That many have fucked off in times of need has not helped Finlandswedes to become very popular. But today the situation is very different, 90% of Finlandswedes view themselves as Finns with Swedish as language. Live with it. That you and Grynda represent a small troubled minority within the minority does not change facts.


Ethnic-Finns show a very emphasis for the notion of being "suomalainen/finne", for Finland-Swedes the nationalism shows in the pride of institution and legal order of Finland, not so much of being finländare. (Kenneth McRae, 1999). Thus, I see your little speculations as quite irrelevent. Please give an exact quote of McRae. Your claims contrast strongly with what I and tens of thousands of Finlandswedes know about reality.

[PeterThaGreat]

Can you show a source where we can see that this is in practice?

Creating an administrative structures that support a language that has absolutely no tradition as being an administrative language (like Finnish in Sweden) is very challenging task as the faith of Sami language clearly shows in Finland. All props for Sweden, for atleast trying.

In Finland, the structures that support Swedish as an administrative have been intact for centuries. They are/were already ready and functioning. Finland is the only country in EU where ready structures that support minority language are being wiped out. In elsewhere Europe, they are being build.



Which translates into Suomalainen.

Finländare translated to suomenmaalainen, which translates to Finlander, an ethnically neutral term, that is. Unlike the word "Finn" which carries ethnic-Finnic connotation.


That many have fucked off in times of need has not helped Finlandswedes to become very popular. But today the situation is very different, 90% of Finlandswedes view themselves as Finns with Swedish as language. Live with it. That you and Grynda represent a small troubled minority within the minority does not change facts.

1) Your idea of blaming the Finland-Swedish minority is disgusting and indeed rings a bell of 30s germany, where minorities were accused and blamed for similar grounds. The fact that Finns don't like Finland-Swedes is the shame of Finns themselves.

2) Could provide some facts for you figures? Your "facts" a la Motorhead, do not qualify for this time. Why are those Finland-Swedes "troubled" who emphasize the Sweden-connection? Isn't natural that minorities are keen to their ethno-linguistic host land? Finland-Swedes are simply maritime Swedish coast-folk of the Baltics, the same folk which streched from Finlands and Estonias svenskbygder to Gotland and Roslagen. A folk that shares/shared the same dialects, traditions, folklore and ecologic nisch.

"På tal om den finlandssvenska identitetsdebatten"

"FÖR ÅBOLÄNNINGAR, österbottningar och ålänningar är det fortfarande en del av vardagen att leva som ett gränsfolk med starka band till kusten och kulturen i Sverige, och många känner sig mera hemma i Umeå och Stockholm än i Helsingfors. Det är väl inget märkligt med det? Sedan inträdet i EU har detta gemensamma kulturområde också finansiellt gynnats av olika Interregionala EU-program. Att tillhöra en gränskultur med många identiteter är helt naturligt, vi är ett gränsfolk bland många andra i Europa och världen."

http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/veckans_skribent/2005_04_eklund.sht

”Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdessvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelsskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar.”

Leif Höckerstedt, 2000 "Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar".

"Min egen finlandssvenska identitet är förankrad i hela den svenskspråkiga kustvärlden - den kringskärs inte av nationella gränser. Min identitet stärktes då jag jobbade några år i Afrika, där mänskornas identitet ofta bygger på en kulturell tillhörighet som inte följer de artificiella nationalstatsgränserna, säger Eklund som arbetat 15 år inom olika biståndsprojekt, bl.a. i Botswana och på Fidjiöarna".

Håkan Eklund, tidskriften skärgård
http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/artiklar/2002_05_skargard.sht

[Eldritch]

I have McRae's book right here, PTG, the same edition as you claim to have. The page number?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Creating an administrative structures that support a language that has absolutely no tradition as being an administrative language (like Finnish in Sweden) is very challenging task as the faith of Sami language clearly shows in Finland. All props for Sweden, for atleast trying.
So, this is waht you answer with when asked to provide a source?



Finländare translated to suomenmaalainen, which translates to Finlander, an ethnically neutral term, that is. Unlike the word "Finn" which carries ethnic-Finnic connotation.
In english Finlander is hardly used. A person from Finland is a Finn. Are you trying to promote a new lie?



1) Your idea of blaming the Finland-Swedish minority is disgusting and indeed rings a bell of 30s germany, where minorities were accused and blamed for similar grounds. The fact that Finns don't like Finland-Swedes is the shame of Finns themselves.
:confused: Funny.

I could swear your attitude towards Finns rang far more bells from Nazigermany..?


2) Could provide some facts for you figures? Wikipedia has. You know Wikipedia, don't you?
Yes, it's the same website you are banned at both the Swedish and Finnish sections for vandalism and sockpupeting.


Your "facts" a la Motorhead, do not qualify for this time.
No, of course not. Facts have been wasted on you for, let's see, is it four years now?


Why are those Finland-Swedes "troubled" who emphasize the Sweden-connection? Isn't natural that minorities are keen to their ethno-linguistic host land? Finland-Swedes are simply maritime Swedish coast-folk of the Baltics, the same folk which streched from Finlands and Estonias svenskbygder to Gotland and Roslagen. A folk that shares/shared the same dialects, traditions, folklore and ecologic nisch.

Oh no!! you are going into:


"På tal om den finlandssvenska identitetsdebatten"

"FÖR ÅBOLÄNNINGAR, österbottningar och ålänningar är det fortfarande en del av vardagen att leva som ett gränsfolk med starka band till kusten och kulturen i Sverige, och många känner sig mera hemma i Umeå och Stockholm än i Helsingfors. Det är väl inget märkligt med det? Sedan inträdet i EU har detta gemensamma kulturområde också finansiellt gynnats av olika Interregionala EU-program. Att tillhöra en gränskultur med många identiteter är helt naturligt, vi är ett gränsfolk bland många andra i Europa och världen."

http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/veckans_skribent/2005_04_eklund.sht

”Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdessvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelsskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar.”

Leif Höckerstedt, 2000 "Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar".

"Min egen finlandssvenska identitet är förankrad i hela den svenskspråkiga kustvärlden - den kringskärs inte av nationella gränser. Min identitet stärktes då jag jobbade några år i Afrika, där mänskornas identitet ofta bygger på en kulturell tillhörighet som inte följer de artificiella nationalstatsgränserna, säger Eklund som arbetat 15 år inom olika biståndsprojekt, bl.a. i Botswana och på Fidjiöarna".

Håkan Eklund, tidskriften skärgård
http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/artiklar/2002_05_skargard.sht

.... repeat copy paste mode again!!!

[PeterThaGreat]

So, this is waht you answer with when asked to provide a source?´

Sweden building administrative structures that support Finnish with territorial guarantees is a fact, not an opinion. Whether they yet fully work in practise is another question. You probably know the issue much better.


In english Finlander is hardly used. A person from Finland is a Finn. Are you trying to promote a new lie?

Yep, yep.


Wikipedia has. You know Wikipedia, don't you?
Yes, it's the same website you are banned at both the Swedish and Finnish sections for vandalism and sockpupeting.

Yep, yep.

What is it that Wikipedia has?

[Karhunkynsi]

´

Sweden building administrative structures that support Finnish with territorial guarantees is a fact, not an opinion. Whether they yet fully work in practise is another question. You probably know the issue much better.


Swedish is official, nationwide language in Finland. It does not need nor require territorial protection. Nationwide, official language allready has status as nationwide language. Status of Swedish language as official language is geographically defined by borders of Republic of Finland. To change the status you need to work towards recognizing Finland as officially only Finnish speaking country, only then can Swedish language be considered as regional language with territorial rights other than those defined by borders of Finland. It's really that simple.

[PeterThaGreat]

Swedish is official, nationwide language in Finland. It does not need nor require territorial protection. Nationwide, official language allready has status as nationwide language. Status of Swedish language as official language is geographically defined by borders of Republic of Finland. To change the status you need to work towards recognizing Finland as officially only Finnish speaking country, only then can Swedish language be considered as regional language with territorial rights other than those defined by borders of Finland. It's really that simple.

Completely BS. Why do even bother to comment on matters where you have no clue?

Finland is currently the only officially bi-multi lingual country which doesn't protect its lesser used official language with territorial guarantees. Even Ireland with its 3% Gaelic minority (only vaguedly territorially bounded minority) is currently seeking ways to enhance the territorial protection for its national-language group.

Finland-Swedes had vague territorial guarantees in the old constitution (article 50 in the 1919 constituion) until it was wiped out in 1999, although grundlagsutskottet has reinstated some of the lost territorial protection with its recent interpretation (the Karleby case). This territorial aspect which would protect the minority from arbitrary administrative reforms initiated by majority must be made stronger in the future.

There's absolutely no need to redefine the status of Finland-Swedes, just harmonization of the important paragraphs of Counsil of Europes minority treaties would be good start. Finland has already ratified these treaties, but not harmonized the content entirely in its domestic legistlation. These treaties lays foundation for respect of geographic area dwelled by the speakers of nationally lesser used languages (incase they are territorially bounded minorities, so it doesn't apply to roma minority f.e.) and protects them from arbitrary administrative reforms.

[paleolithic]

I will remove you from my ignore list for awhile. I actually fully agree that it is myth that Finland is bi-lingual. Finland is not bi-lingual anywhere else than in paper. We should adopt the new Swedish language law, pretty much as it is. Finland becoming officially, unilingually Finnish. Swedish language would be allowed to have some status at communal level at those places where there is significant amount of Swedophones.

How about the Sami language? In Swedish it has national status as a minority language. In parts of Sweden, signs, schoolbooks and public information are available in Sami.

[Karhunkynsi]

How about the Sami language? In Swedish it has national status as a minority language. In parts of Sweden, signs, schoolbooks and public information are available in Sami.

Saami has regional rights in those counties where Saami is spoken. All services (including high school) are availabe by Saami language. Saami language can be studied at University level at Oulu and Helsinki.

Swedish is not regional language in Finland because it is nationwide official language of the state. Saami is minority language.

Status of Swedish language in Finland is ofcource completely wrong. This can be changed immediately when Swedophone language party (RKP) asks to do so. Swedish is not minority language in Finland, it is state language with similar status as Finnish.

Any recognition of Swedish as regional minority language requires change of constitution -> Finnish is the only state language of Republic of Finland.

Recent language law of Sweden is pretty good. It could be applied to Finland with only minor changes. That however is not ok to Swedophone minority as they would loose the status of nationwide official language and become regional minority language.

Swedish is the only official language of Åland, Finnish doesnt even have minority status there. All of Finland is officially bi-lingual (Finnish + Swedish), except Åland, which is officially unilingually Swedish.

Do you see how absurd these claims by PTG and Grynda are ? They are incredibly arrogant.

[Dennis]

How about the Russian language in Finland? We have no signs, schoolbooks or public information.

[Karhunkynsi]

How about the Russian language in Finland? We have no signs, schoolbooks or public information.

And you will never have. Russians have allready destroyed enough Finnish land, go see ruins of Viipuri.

[Eldritch]

Wikipedia has. You know Wikipedia, don't you?
Yes, it's the same website you are banned at both the Swedish and Finnish sections for vandalism and sockpupeting.


Interesting (although not exactly surprising). I'd like to hear more. :thumbsup:

I remember Petteri boasting about wanting to add Finnish and Japanese to the Wiki article that deals with polysynthetic languages, since according to him both of those languages are polysynthetic.

[This despite the fact that he doesn't even understand what the concept of synthesis in linguistics is about]

---------- Post added 2010-07-09 at 20:09 ----------


How about the Russian language in Finland? We have no signs, schoolbooks or public information.

Know what? I have slight problems believing you are fluent in Russian. Why not prove me wrong?

[Grynda]

And you will never have. Russians have allready destroyed enough Finnish land, go see ruins of Viipuri.

Viipuri which the Swedes built.

[Tuohikirje]

Viipuri which the Swedes built.

You can try again, we don't mind that you did not know on the 1st time.

Vuoksi river has connected Viipuri and Käkisalmi (Korela).

[Grynda]

You can try again, we don't mind that you did not know on the 1st time.

Vuoksi river has connected Viipuri and Käkisalmi (Korela).

It's great to see the Swedish founder Torkils Knutsson standing as a statue in Vyborg. I'm glad the Russians put him back up where he belonged.

[Eldritch]

It's great to see the Swedish founder Torkils Knutsson standing as a statue in Vyborg. I'm glad the Russians put him back up where he belonged.

So he could overlook the ruins of what was once a beautiful city.

That to me is the most baffling aspect of Svekomania: they/you seem to be willing to sacrifice your country and own way of life, as long as anything that reminds you of Finns or Finnishness is ruined and destroyed. :confused:

[Grynda]

So he could overlook the ruins of what was once a beautiful city.

That to me is the most baffling aspect of Svekomania: they/you seem to be willing to sacrifice your country and own way of life, as long as anything that reminds you of Finns or Finnishness is ruined and destroyed. :confused:

I have never said that Finnish cities should be put into ruins.:( I just want to be free from Finnish oppression and maltreatment.

[Tuohikirje]

It's great to see the Swedish founder Torkils Knutsson standing as a statue in Vyborg. I'm glad the Russians put him back up where he belonged.

Viipuri was naturally a Finnish place of trade, a village, town long before the 13th century. If you have reliable sources that Knutsson built the Viipuri castle (attention, a castle), everyone is happy to look at the material.

Finnish cities in the Middle Ages


Viipuri (1293, kaupunkioikeudet 1403)
Viipuri oli Ruotsi-Suomen itäisin varuskunta, josta kehittyi myös kauppakaupunki. Nimi Viipuri koostuu muinaisruotsin sanoista vi (pyhä paikka) ja borg (linna).

Arkeologisten kaivausten mukaan Viipurissa oli karjalainen kauppapaikka jo 900-luvulla. Viipurin varhaiseen olemassaoloon viittaa myös se, että uplantilaisessa riimukivessä vuodelta n. 1100 sanotaan kuolinpaikaksi Uiburk.

Nykyisen Viipurin perusti Torkkeli Knuutinpoika vuonna 1293 Ruotsin suomalaisten asuttamille alueille kohdistuneen ja niitä itään laajentaneen kolmannen ristiretken aikana. Viipurin linna mainitaan ensi kerran vuonna 1295 kuningas Birgerin kirjeessä, mutta novgorodilaisten kronikassa sanotaan, että ruotsalaiset "perustivat linnan Karjalaan vuonna 6801". Venäjällä aikaa laskettiin maailman luomisesta, joka ko. ajanlaskun mukaan tapahtui vuonna 5508. Kyseessä oli siis länsimaisen ajanlaskun mukaan vuosi 1293.

Pähkinäsaaren rauhassa vuonna 1323 Viipurista tuli virallisesti Ruotsin valtakunnan osa. Viipuri sai kaupunkioikeudet vasta 1403, mutta jo 1300-luvulla syntyi linnansaarelle siviiliasutusta, joka alkoi siirtyä linnansalmen toiselle puolelle kallioiselle niemelle. Ensimmäisen kerran Viipurin kaupunki mainittiin kirjallisissa lähteissä 1336 ja Viipurin raati 1393. Ensimmäinen tunnettu Viipurin porvari oli saksalainen Ewert von Balven Tallinnasta (1393), samoin ensimmäinen tunnettu raatimies Magnus Schröder (1410).

Viipuri oli Karjalan hallintokaupunki ja merkittävä ulkomaan kaupan keskus. Kaukokauppa oli suureksi osaksi itämeren saksalaisista hansakaupungeista kuten Lyypekistä ja Tallinnasta saapuneiden hansakauppiaiden hallinnassa. Vienti suuntautui enimmäkseen Tallinnaan, missä tavarat myytiin läntiseen Eurooppaan. Kaupunkilaisten enemmistö oli kuitenkin suomalaisia, samoin pikkuporvarit ja työläiset.

Koska Viipuri oli kaukana Tukholmasta, Viipurin linnalääniä hallittiin kuin itsenäistä valtakuntaa. Hämeen ja Turun linnalääneillä oli Viipuria kiinteämpi yhteys Tukholmaan ja vähemmän itsemääräämisoikeutta. Linnan ympärille kehittynyt kaupunki oli linnanherran suojeluksessa ja Viipuri oli ainut Suomen kaupunki, jonka ympärillä oli kaupunginmuuri. Dominikaanit perustivat luostarin Viipuriin 1398 ja fransiskaankonventti perustettiin 1400-luvun alussa.



http://www.katajala.net/keskiaika/suomi/kaupungit.html

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 13:25 ----------


I have never said that Finnish cities should be put into ruins.:( I just want to be free from Finnish oppression and maltreatment.

Are you not free? How you are oppressed and maltreated in Finland?

As we can clearly see e.g. from Viipuri's history, people have been able to live side by side despite of different languages, religions, wars, hunger. There were no modern Swedish and Finnish states. You understand that, don't you.

And you cannot live in 2010 Finland.

[Grynda]

Viipuri was naturally a Finnish place of trade, a village, town long before the 13th century.

The city that was put into ruins was the one that Torkils Knutsson founded. What ever village that was on the spot before that was long gone by WWII.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 18:24 ----------


Are you not free? How you are oppressed and maltreated in Finland?

Because I'm not allowed to talk my mother tongue in public. Because there is a growing number of Finns also IRL that treat me in the same way as you and member Karhukynsi.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 18:33 ----------


As we can clearly see e.g. from Viipuri's history, people have been able to live side by side despite of different languages, religions, wars, hunger. There were no modern Swedish and Finnish states. You understand that, don't you.

The situation in Viipuri regarding languages seems to have been very different from that in today's Finland. A friend of mine talked the other day about his grandfathers father, a Karelian, who was a shopkeeper in Viipuri and how proud he had been that he was able to serve his customers in six different languages. You see how very different that is from the situation in today's Finland?

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 18:34 ----------


And you cannot live in 2010 Finland.

Thank you

[Eldritch]

Because I'm not allowed to talk my mother tongue in public.

Sorry, but I simply do not believe you.


Because there is a growing number of Finns also IRL that treat me in the same way as you and member Karhukynsi.

If this is indeed true (a big if) there might be reason to look into as to why this happens?

[Tuohikirje]

It's great to see the Swedish founder Torkils Knutsson standing as a statue in Vyborg. I'm glad the Russians put him back up where he belonged.

With this statement, Grynda, honestly you are put to the worst enemy category of Finland and Finns.

All people, who have reasonable knowledge of history of Finns and Finland, are able to verify that you are siding with people, who are responsible of history falsifications, ethnic cleansings, mass murders in Karelia in recent history and ongoing at the moment.

Shame on you. I feel sorry for you for not understanding.

Do not wonder no more why you would be hated.

I side with innocent people, elderly, children raped and murdered, Karelians, Finns.
Please visit the War Museum in Helsinki, you will see the results you were just defending.

[Grynda]

With this statement, Grynda, honestly you are put to the worst enemy category of Finland and Finns.

All people, who have reasonable knowledge of history of Finns and Finland, are able to verify that you are siding with people, who are responsible of history falsifications, ethnic cleansings, mass murders in Karelia in recent history and ongoing at the moment.


Again, you must be totally insane. I'm responsible for ethnic cleansings and mass murders in Karelia now?

[Tuohikirje]

Again, you must be totally insane. I'm responsible for ethnic cleansings and mass murders in Karelia now?

Why are you defending Russians in Viipuri. Are you aware that they have done their everything to destroy Finns, deny Finnish history and have Victory Days and marches yearly in the city, that the city was liberated from the nazist Finns?

Are you aware how many people were lost in ethnic cleansings in the 30's in East Karelia and that babies were raped and killed by Soviets in Karelia before they could be evacuated because of their ethnicity. Are you aware?

Viipuri was and is a Finnish town, occupied still today.

Think before you answer.

[Grynda]

Why are you defending Russians in Viipuri. Are you aware that they have done their everything to destroy Finns, deny Finnish history and have Victory Days and marches yearly in the city, that the city was liberated from the nazist Finns?

I never liked the communist rule in the Soviet Union. I've never defended it. The communists as you know took down the statue of Torkils Knutsson and kept it hidden.

---------- Post added 2010-07-11 at 23:24 ----------


Are you aware how many people were lost in ethnic cleansings in the 30's in East Karelia and that babies were raped and killed by Soviets in Karelia before they could be evacuated because of their ethnicity. Are you aware?

I've aware of the cruelty of the Red Army, yes.

[PeterThaGreat]

It's great to see the Swedish founder Torkils Knutsson standing as a statue in Vyborg. I'm glad the Russians put him back up where he belonged.

Indeed. Helsingfors is probably the only capital in the world which doesn't have a statue of its founder (the currently serving Swedish ambassador though it is "weird") , altogether things start to get very weird when Finns take a political control, all the sudden Swedish fortress (Sveaborg) turns into "Suomenlinna" (Finnish fortress), not to mention that permanent exhibition of Finnish national museum does not have a single word about Finland-Swedes, yet every single obscure Uralic-speaking Siberian group is mentioned. The award winning Finland-Swedish poet Gösta Ågren considered this as prime example of Finnish chauvinism.

---------- Post added 2010-07-12 at 08:28 ----------



I could swear your attitude towards Finns rang far more bells from Nazigermany..?

Wikipedia has. You know Wikipedia, don't you?
Yes, it's the same website you are banned at both the Swedish and Finnish sections for vandalism and sockpupeting.



Yes, your great Wikipedia has source that disclosed that about 80% of Finland-Swedes think of themselves as "finländare" (the quistionare was in Swedish), woopy...dooo.......I don't mind being referred as finländare (Finlander), that's ok, the rest, about 20% of Finland-Swedish respondents were probably internationalist of some sort and probably regarded themselves primarly as Swedish Europeans (svensk europe), which is ok as well.

The problem is that as a sick & extreme, fanatic nationalist you try portray Finland-Swedes from the stand-point of your own ethno-linguistic Finnish nationalism. It won't work. I wonder where you left your analyticalness of this one.

"Inspired by Solhman and Freudenthal, the Swedish movement gradually developed a distinction in terminology between inhabitants of Finland (finländare, finländsk), and ethnic Finns (finnar, finsk), and this usage became more general in Swedish-language sources after 1900. Finnish-speaking intellectuals angrily rejected the distinction as unnecessary and - considering its intellectual origins - insulting. To most Finnish speakers, all Finlanders were simply Finns".

Kenneth McRae, 1999.

Its a sad that inferior-complexed Finns view the distinction as sad, however judged from a minority point of view, the day when a minority starts to define itself according to conditions dictated by majority, the day when the minority cease to exist. Finland-Swedes have existential human-right to refer themselves as whatever they wish, and judged from the ethnic culture and language of Finland-Swedes, the usage of the term "Finn" in the context of Finland-Swedes reflects majority chauvinism, not analyticalness.

"The evidence of this stronger sense of group identity among Finnish-speakers is manifested at many points, some of which hava been noted in earlier sections: in the social pressures to speak Finnish in public settings; in campaigns and demostrations in the interwat period against bilingual signs and bi-lingual place names in unilingual areas; in the changing of surnamesm, and especially in the organized campaign og the 1900’s and 1930’s; in the lenghty and uncompromising devate over the appropriate terminology for the country’s inhabitants, a division that continues in the 1990’s. In the broader sense one of he core values of the Finnish nationalist movement historically has been yksimielisyys, which can be translated as ”unity of outlook” or ”unanimity”. Though the political system is often deeply divided and has developed pragmatic patterns of consensus-building in recent decades, the more conflictual politics of earlier times was often ready to ignore, override, or exclude minority opinions. Such a disposition, we may observe, stands at some distance from Swiss political tradition, which not only recognizes diversity but rates it positively as one of Switzeland’s core values".

Kenneth Mcrae, 1999.

I say we embrace pluralism. It wouldn't do bad for you to take on the example of Russians here. Not even the most fanatic, extreme Russo-chauvinist would ever refer Khanties and Fenno-Ugrics as "Russkies" and deny their ethnic identity.

---------- Post added 2010-07-12 at 08:35 ----------


How about the Russian language in Finland? We have no signs, schoolbooks or public information.

A Russian minority referred as "gammalryssar" which refers to those Finlanders with roots to (the pre-1917) Russian minority is covered in the minority treaties of Counsil of Europe. The big problem is where to cut line between these and the new Russian immigrants. No cases on this has yet appeared. In principle this would mean that Russian-language services ought to be as extensive in Finland as Finnish-language services are in Sweden f.e. (ofcourse adjusted to demand) However, very few Russian are aware of their full linguistic rights in Finland, which is sad.

Anyway, good that you asked about this. I have to give a call to Finnish minister of foreign affairs and ask about their interpretation on this (which might be entirely different from that of Counsil of Europe, though).

Russian-school kids are entitled to receive education in mother-tongue, though. Counsil of Europe has scolded Finland for the systematic abuse Russian-kids have to go through in Finnish schools.

---------- Post added 2010-07-12 at 08:39 ----------



Swedish is the only official language of Åland, Finnish doesnt even have minority status there. All of Finland is officially bi-lingual (Finnish + Swedish), except Åland, which is officially unilingually Swedish.

Do you see how absurd these claims by PTG and Grynda are ? They are incredibly arrogant.

Well, referring to Counsil of Europe, in case you do little research you can verify that Finland has not even bothered to translate existing minority treaties in Swedish , they are only available in English and Finnish. So, one can conclude that in the case of Finland, there's harsh mismatch between what stands in paper and what happens in practise, (and this ofcourse just a one example represting just one example). Are there other countries in Europe (or the world) which refuses to translate important international treaties in its national language?

---------- Post added 2010-07-12 at 08:43 ----------


And you will never have. Russians have allready destroyed enough Finnish land, go see ruins of Viipuri.

Hard words from ethno-chauvinist whose own was in responsible in causing the first ecologic catastrophy in Swedens history (17th century, slash and burn - Finns).

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Yes, your great Wikipedia has source that disclosed that about 80% of Finland-Swedes think of themselves as "finländare" (the quistionare was in Swedish), woopy...dooo.......I don't mind being referred as finländare (Finlander), that's ok, the rest, about 20% of Finland-Swedish respondents were probably internationalist of some sort and probably regarded themselves primarly as Swedish Europeans (svensk europe), which is ok as well. Nonsense and speculations.


The problem is that as a sick & extreme, fanatic nationalist you try portray Finland-Swedes from the stand-point of your own ethno-linguistic Finnish nationalism. It won't work. I wonder where you left your analyticalness of this one. Eh?


"Inspired by Solhman and Freudenthal, the Swedish movement gradually developed a distinction in terminology between inhabitants of Finland (finländare, finländsk), and ethnic Finns (finnar, finsk), and this usage became more general in Swedish-language sources after 1900. Finnish-speaking intellectuals angrily rejected the distinction as unnecessary and - considering its intellectual origins - insulting. To most Finnish speakers, all Finlanders were simply Finns".

Kenneth McRae, 1999.
Exactly. Finnish hating racists Sohlman and Freudenthal coined the term to make an artificial distinction. Fennomans were more intrested in aunited nation where all are equals. Stop filling your head with 19th century Svekomaniac crap, it's 2010 now.


Its a sad that inferior-complexed Finns There it is again. No argument, just obsessive repetitions. It does not work. Try something new.



A Russian minority referred as "gammalryssar" which refers to those Finlanders with roots to (the pre-1917) Russian minority is covered in the minority treaties of Counsil of Europe. The big problem is where to cut line between these and the new Russian immigrants. No cases on this has yet appeared. In principle this would mean that Russian-language services ought to be as extensive in Finland as Finnish-language services are in Sweden f.e. (ofcourse adjusted to demand) However, very few Russian are aware of their full linguistic rights in Finland, which is sad.
First you provide us the distinction (the pre-1917), then you claim that there are difficulties with drawing a line? How daft are you? The distinction is clear as day and night.


Russian-school kids are entitled to receive education in mother-tongue, though. Counsil of Europe has scolded Finland for the systematic abuse Russian-kids have to go through in Finnish schools.Oh yeah? (Give sources and what the fuck does this have to do with McRae???) Stay focused on what the topic is, Dumbo.



PTG wrote: Kenneth McRae retrospectively critized the Swedish-speaking politicians who settle with too little as Swedish in Finland was left without proper, fixed territorial guarantees. "For the mainland provinces, the Finnish-speaking parties and leadership studiously avoided self-goverment for Swedish speakers but instead offered cultural concessions - most notably administrative autonomy for Swedish schools and a Swedish diocese - that were sufficient to satisfy moderate Swedish-speakers and to discourage activists from striving for more. As our previous analysis has suggested at several points, a retrospective view of subsequent language development strongly suggest that the centre-oriented Swedish-speaking leadership made a flawed decision in accepting this settlement, though whether more could have been achieved at that point by harder bargaining is difficult to asses".


Peter, is this a quote of McRae?


Peter. Answer my question:

For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

Puuha-Pete, sit down and think before you answer.



I asked

Where have McRae stated that "Finland-Swedes did a terrible mistake for settling with too little in 1919 and 1923"?
Where have McRae criticized Finland for "not applying territorial principle"?

Please answer the questions. I find only other peoples comments on McRaes work. Not McRaes own words.
---------- Post added 2010-07-12 at 08:39 ----------




Hard words from ethno-chauvinist whose own was in responsible in causing the first ecologic catastrophy in Swedens history (17th century, slash and burn - Finns):confused:
:confused: Do you have rabies or something similar. Why are you lying again????
Please give a source where we can read about this alleged "first ecologic catastrophy in Swedens history"?

Better, open a thread about this.

ASSHOLE.

[PeterThaGreat]

Exactly. Finnish hating racists Sohlman and Freudenthal coined the term to make an artificial distinction. Fennomans were more intrested in aunited nation where all are equals. Stop filling your head with 19th century Svekomaniac crap, it's 2010 now.


Hold on, you put so much crap I don't have time to go through all your Bull-shit.

Freudenthal didn't hate Finns, where the hell on earth have you got such impression (fennoman netpages?). Freudenthal had barely ever met a Finn. Freudenthals vision was to have Finland with two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. This are extremely radical view at the time of hegelist fanatism (one folk, one language). The idea of Fennoman was to have ethnic-Finnish national state, where Swedes would've been forced to assimilate.

Anyway, in regards to terminologic distinction, Finland-Swedes have a different cultural identity as opposed to the majority. I am not sure have you ever actually met a Finland-Swede, but there's actually a term called finlandssvenskhet which includes so much of connotations and social norming that the term "Swedish-speaking Finnishness" could never convey it properly.
(samhörighet med den germansktalande Norden, kräftätning, snapvisesjungande, Luciatraditionen, skärgårdsliv, ankdammen, upplevelser i språkstrid, fonderna, SFP osv.)

In fact the cultural identity of Finland-Swedes is so strong that some members of the minority experience it as socially restricting, that's why why a famous cultural dissident Jörn Donner openly declared in the 1980s that he does not want to have anything to do with finlandssvenskhet.

I am sure that Finland has a room for non-majority ethnic-identities, including terminologic distinction of its residents.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Hold on, you put so much crap I don't have time to go through all your Bull-shit. Wrong. Bullshit is what you spread, moderate standpoints based on reality is what I advocate. Everyone here (except your alter egos) accepts this as a fact.

Freudenthal didn't hate Finns
Yes, he did. And everyone with the slightest grasp of history is aware of this.

German/Swedish Freudenthal and Swedish Sohlman (none of them were even Finlnadswedes!!!) were filled with contempt towards Finns and embraced whole heartedly Gobineaus Germanophilia.
The driving force behind Svekomania was not to "protect" Swedishspeaking Finns and culture but to violently go against all form of reasonable rights for Finnishspeaking Finns.
Freudenthal embraced a racist ideology which was the foundation of what later become nazism.
Much of the Finlandswedish identity is based on self deceipt, myths and false identity provided by not Finlandswedes themsleves, but by Swedes who believed a Swedish people must exist in Finland because one day it would be Swedish again. Intelligent Finlandswedes did not buy this and worked against this perverted ideology and for democracy and majorityrights.


where the hell on earth have you got such impression (fennoman netpages?).
Oh, just by reading something called historybooks (Klinge, Jutikkala, Meinander, Julku e.t.c). Try visiting a library some day and borrow some of the many excellent historybooks available instead of filling your head with political shit.

I am not sure have you ever actually met a Finland-Swede, Let me see.... my father, grandfather, grandmother and hundreds of others..... Do they count?
(Do I need to remind you again that I'm more Finlandswedish than what you are. Both by ancestry and by language.)


Jörn Donner openly declared in the 1980s that he does not want to have anything to do with finlandssvenskhet. Jörn Donner is intelligent and have called the bluff. So have I.


Peter. Answer my question:

For the last four years your one single goal on the internet boards have been uphold the idea that Finns are inferior low life primitive complexed scumbags.

You have not wasted any effort to make everyone believe it really is so.

Q: How do you think it is helping Finlandswedes in their situation?

[Grynda]

Sorry, but I simply do not believe you.

It has become more difficult to get by in Finland using the Swedish language. Particulary in health care and in contacts with authorities.

Another bad thing is also the increasing harassments from some Finns when hearing Swedish spoken in public.


If this is indeed true (a big if) there might be reason to look into as to why this happens?

I really don't know. The society was more closed up before, with e.g. the net it has become easier to promote anti-Swedish thoughts and maybe that's why they have spread. The political decisions in the last years have been in many ways anti-Swedish and I'm sure the politicians feel that they have the people behind them when making them.

[Tuohikirje]

It has become more difficult to get by in Finland using the Swedish language. Particulary in health care and in contacts with authorities.

Another bad thing is also the increasing harassments from some Finns when hearing Swedish spoken in public.



I really don't know. The society was more closed up before, with e.g. the net it has become easier to promote anti-Swedish thoughts and maybe that's why they have spread. The political decisions in the last years have been in many ways anti-Swedish and I'm sure the politicians feel that they have the people behind them when making them.

It has become more difficult to get any care, if you are a Finnish citizen. There is an easy answer, speak the language you are provided health care and services with.

Finns have been able to learn other languages, yet you are not able to.

If you get into personal conflicts with people, do not try to blame it on language.

I also advise not to go 'commenting' like you do on this forum to nakkikioski or taxi queue at 3 a.m. in any language.

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 22:48 ----------


Anyway, in regards to terminologic distinction, Finland-Swedes have a different cultural identity as opposed to the majority. I am not sure have you ever actually met a Finland-Swede, but there's actually a term called finlandssvenskhet which includes so much of connotations and social norming that the term "Swedish-speaking Finnishness" could never convey it properly.
(samhörighet med den germansktalande Norden, kräftätning, snapvisesjungande, Luciatraditionen, skärgårdsliv, ankdammen, upplevelser i språkstrid, fonderna, SFP osv.)


There is nothing on your list or so unique in Finland-Swedish culture that it has to be separated from Finnish culture.

All Finns celebrate Lucia candles on head and Joulupukki as well. Some more and some less.

All ethnic groups are entitled to their traditions, not to be used against others though.

Strong Nordic and European cultural and ecomical connections of Finns do not even need explanation.

[PeterThaGreat]

German/Swedish Freudenthal and Swedish Sohlman (none of them were even Finlnadswedes!!!) were filled with contempt towards Finns and embraced whole heartedly Gobineaus Germanophilia.
The driving force behind Svekomania was not to "protect" Swedishspeaking Finns and culture but to violently go against all form of reasonable rights for Finnishspeaking Finns.
Freudenthal embraced a racist ideology which was the foundation of what later become nazism.
Much of the Finlandswedish identity is based on self deceipt, myths and false identity provided by not Finlandswedes themsleves, but by Swedes who believed a Swedish people must exist in Finland because one day it would be Swedish again. Intelligent Finlandswedes did not buy this and worked against this perverted ideology and for democracy and majorityrights.


Oh, just by reading something called historybooks (Klinge, Jutikkala, Meinander, Julku e.t.c). Try visiting a library some day and borrow some of the many excellent historybooks available instead of filling your head with political shit.


LOL. This is sad. The most outrageous piece of crap I've head. Insane is the right word to describe your above verdict. The sad thing is that you have not even read a single book by klinge. Putting this stuff in his "mouth" is something you should be sued for.

Freudenthal had was born and brought up in Sjundeå, so ofcourse he was a Swede of Finland, Finland-Swede as concept was born much later than his times. Prior to that Swedes at the coast of Finland referred themselves as Swedes and Swedes in Sweden as "Sverigeboarna", Sweden dwellers.

Anyway, it's exactly your kind extreme animalistic emotionalness and unrationality fed by the Finnish-speaking inferior complex which actually makes it really hard for Finland-Swedes to tolerate Finland.

"..This suggest that for some Swedish-speakers a sense of political community may be more easily felt through the region or local community than through central-state. It can also be noticed that the average level of absolute loyalties for all categories in this table is four percentage points higher for Finnish speakers than for Swedish speakers, which is consistent with the conventional stereotype of the latter group as more rational and less given to expressions of emotions"

Kenneth McRae, 1999.

Its sad that the Finns in this forum seems to reinforce the stereotype of emotional-riddden, aggressive Finn-behavior.

[Tuohikirje]

Anyway, it's exactly your kind extreme animalistic emotionalness and unrationality fed by the Finnish-speaking inferior complex which actually makes it really hard for Finland-Swedes to tolerate Finland.


What inferior complex.

99.9% of Finland-Swedes luckily are sane and love Finland (of course, Finns love Finland).

Otherwise they would be putting up statues in Russia instead (irl).

[PeterThaGreat]

Jörn Donner is intelligent and have called the bluff. So have I.

I forgot to cover this.

In order to call it bluff, you need to know where you are at. Donner distanced himself for Finland-Swedish culture since he perceived it as bourgheoise and reactionary culture, and for a guy who did interracial porn with minor aged ladies already in the 1970s, finlandssvenskhet was was arguably a reactionary culture for him. I don't know whether he found intellectual refuge with the Finns, or not. Anyway, he seem to have softened, he spends most of his time at his residence in Ekenäs, a symbol for finlandssvensk "small-bourgheoise".

In sociologic sciences there's special concept for minority's self-hate. There are always members within minority who align themselves with the majority, its a fairly common syndrome. That's why there's been several evengelist gay-hate propagators who have caught for homosexual relationships. Donners messianic preaching certainly irritated even some Ethnic Finns.

I think the best days of united nation-states should have died in the 1800s. I hope that in the future we can embrace ethnic pluralism in Finland, respectively as Finns and Swedes of Finland.

[Tuohikirje]

I forgot to cover this.

In order to call it bluff, you need to know where you are at. Donner distanced himself for Finland-Swedish culture since he perceived it as bourgheoise and reactionary culture, and for a guy who did interracial porn with minor aged ladies already in the 1970s, finlandssvenskhet was was arguably a reactionary culture for him. I don't know whether he found intellectual refuge with the Finns, or not. Anyway, he seem to have softened, he spends most of his time at his residence in Ekenäs, a symbol for finlandssvensk "small-bourgheoise".

In sociologic sciences there's special concept for minority's self-hate. There are always members within minority who align themselves with the majority, its a fairly common syndrome. That's why there's been several evengelist gay-hate propagators who have caught for homosexual relationships. Donners messianic preaching certainly irritated even some Ethnic Finns.

I think the best days of united nation-states should have died in the 1800s. I hope that in the future we can embrace ethnic pluralism in Finland, respectively as Finns and Swedes of Finland.

Donner might have a say of your lies of him.
Tammisaari is a Finnish town.
There are 8500 registered ethnic Swedes in Finland.