View Full Version : Haplogroup Kurds
hi i wanted to ask what the haplogroup R1* and R1a1* represents because acording to Max Planck Institut they found 6% R1*(M173) 8% R1b1* and 19,5 % R1a1* (M17) among kurds of Anatolia.
And also 25% I* (M170) Was found Among kurds what does this * means.
Aware_Dog
2010-07-26, 06:08
If they tested all possible downstream mutations then the "*" means it is an ancestral or basal state of the lineage. Take for example R1*, let's say you tested for the M173 SNP and the person was positive, that means his lineage belongs to R1, but you still don't know what sub lineage of R1 he belongs to, so then if you tested for the defining mutations of R1a and R1b (i.e. the known sub-lineages of R1) and found to be negative for those relevant SNPs, then the person is said to belong to R1*. So in this case, * means the ancestral state or belonging to a sub-lineage that is as of yet not discovered, but you have to confirm what downstream mutations were tested before you can call it ancestral.
If they tested all possible downstream mutations then the "*" means it is an ancestral or basal state of the lineage. Take for example R1*, let's say you tested for the M173 SNP and the person was positive, that means his lineage belongs to R1, but you still don't know what sub lineage of R1 he belongs to, so then if you tested for the defining mutations of R1a and R1b (i.e. the known sub-lineages of R1) and found to be negative for those relevant SNPs, then the person is said to belong to R1*. So in this case, * means the ancestral state or belonging to a sub-lineage that is as of yet not discovered, but you have to confirm what downstream mutations were tested before you can call it ancestral.
SO This R1* and I* means it could also be a new subgroup which wasn´t found before?
Humanist
2010-07-26, 08:05
If you are referring to the Nasidze study of '05, I would advise against combining the values of the different Kurdish groups. If you do proceed to combine values, despite the lack of correlation, one further note of caution. You may wish to weight your values. For example, the referred to .25 frequency of Haplogroup "I", I presume, was calculated based on the Zazaki (.333) and Turkish Kurmanji (.161) reported frequencies. The weighted frequency of Haplogroup I is 20.17%.
The following are my interpretations of the correlation coefficients related to the Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies of the four separate Kurdish groups:
ZazakiT, KurmanjiT, KurmanjiG, KurdsTM
ZazakiT: X, ~ low/mod correlation, ~ neg. low/mod correlation, ~ no correlation
KurmanjiT: ~ low/mod correlation, X, ~ low correlation, ~ negligible correlation
KurmanjiG: ~ neg. low/mod correlation, ~ low correlation, X, ~ negligible correlation
KurdsTM: ~ no correlation, ~ negligible correlation, ~ negligible correlation, X
Also, in closing, I should add, that the Nasidze study is seriously lacking in haplogroup resolution. No doubt a function of its age.
Humanist
2010-07-26, 08:19
This graphic that I prepared should help you visualize the study's lack of resolution clearly. Only those SNPs marked in red were tested.
hi i wanted to ask what the haplogroup R1* and R1a1* represents because acording to Max Planck Institut they found 6% R1*(M173) 8% R1b1* and 19,5 % R1a1* (M17) among kurds of Anatolia.
And also 25% I* (M170) Was found Among kurds what does this * means.
I thought this one was a European haplotype. It's not really present in Middle Easterners...usu. under 10% percent in the region.
Humanist
2010-07-26, 10:38
I thought this one was a European haplotype. It's not really present in Middle Easterners...usu. under 10% percent in the region.
It is present ~14% in Turkish folks. ~10% among Lebanese Druze. About half that among the Maronites, Lebanese Arabs, and Armenians. It is observed at ~2-4% in Jordan and Syria.
I think "I" comes from Crusaders,kurdish populated cities such as Şanlıurfa,Mardin etc. were under Crusader/Frankish domination...
If you are referring to the Nasidze study of '05, I would advise against combining the values of the different Kurdish groups. If you do proceed to combine values, despite the lack of correlation, one further note of caution. You may wish to weight your values. For example, the referred to .25 frequency of Haplogroup "I", I presume, was calculated based on the Zazaki (.333) and Turkish Kurmanji (.161) reported frequencies. The weighted frequency of Haplogroup I is 20.17%.
The following are my interpretations of the correlation coefficients related to the Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies of the four separate Kurdish groups:
ZazakiT, KurmanjiT, KurmanjiG, KurdsTM
ZazakiT: X, ~ low/mod correlation, ~ neg. low/mod correlation, ~ no correlation
KurmanjiT: ~ low/mod correlation, X, ~ low correlation, ~ negligible correlation
KurmanjiG: ~ neg. low/mod correlation, ~ low correlation, X, ~ negligible correlation
KurdsTM: ~ no correlation, ~ negligible correlation, ~ negligible correlation, X
Also, in closing, I should add, that the Nasidze study is seriously lacking in haplogroup resolution. No doubt a function of its age.
according to this site it is 25% the zaza population is almost 1/5 i must to know it iam partly one
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
that means you have to cross it throw 5 33:5= 6-7% that 16+6-7 = makes 22-23 % so it is not so false.
And also my question was about the *
---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 12:48 ----------
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I think "I" comes from Crusaders,kurdish populated cities such as Şanlıurfa,Mardin etc. were under Crusader/Frankish domination...
cCan´t be they found it moslty in Dersim, Diyarbakir, Bingöl, Mardin,Sirnak Van and so on nothing special about Urfa.
---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 13:41 ----------
This graphic that I prepared should help you visualize the study's lack of resolution clearly. Only those SNPs marked in red were tested.
it seems like you "love" kurds making a graphic almost only for kurds while you aren´t even one.:D
Humanist
2010-07-26, 15:29
according to this site it is 25% the zaza population is almost 1/5 i must to know it iam partly one
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
that means you have to cross it throw 5 33:5= 6-7% that 16+6-7 = makes 22-23 % so it is not so false.
And also my question was about the *
---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 12:48 ----------
[/COLOR]
cCan´t be they found it moslty in Dersim, Diyarbakir, Bingöl, Mardin,Sirnak Van and so on nothing special about Urfa.
---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 13:41 ----------
it seems like you "love" kurds making a graphic almost only for kurds while you aren´t even one.:D
If you believe that Eupedia is a more reliable source than the actual study, then by all means, go ahead and use it as a source.
Yes, it is true. Your question was in regard to the asterisk. The asterisk, however, without addressing the issue of SNP resolution, cannot be fully understood. Furthermore, since the frequencies to which you referred were incorrect from the outset, and I recognized your error, I thought I would draw it to your attention.
I do not know what to make of your emoticon. If you find it odd that I should provide a visual in support of my statement regarding the lack of SNP resolution, you are in the minority here.
Good luck in your pursuit.
If you believe that Eupedia is a more reliable source than the actual study, then by all means, go ahead and use it as a source.
Yes, it is true. Your question was in regard to the asterisk. The asterisk, however, without addressing the issue of SNP resolution, cannot be fully understood. Furthermore, since the frequencies to which you referred were incorrect from the outset, and I recognized your error, I thought I would draw it to your attention.
I do not know what to make of your emoticon. If you find it odd that I should provide a visual in support of my statement regarding the lack of SNP resolution, you are in the minority here.
Good luck in your pursuit.
the frequencies were just wrong like 2-3% but is ok and thx for the information.
And no i found it just a bit interesting that you have made graphic for the haplogroups among kurds :)
but anyway thx for the information and don´t get me wrong i didn´t wanted to attack you
Humanist
2010-07-26, 15:52
the frequencies were just wrong like 2-3% but is ok and thx for the information.
And not i found it just a bit interesting that you have made graphic for the haplogroups among kurds :)
I had created the graphic in preparation for the support of certain data I wished to soon present regarding the Kurmanji (Turkish) samples from the Nasidze study.
Regarding the numbers. I am not certain I understand you. Are you stating that I have erred?
My calculation:
ZazakiT = 27 samples (.333 +M170) = ~9 samples
KurmanjiT = 87 samples (.161 +M170) = ~14 samples
Total samples = 114 samples
Total +M170 sample % among Turkish Kurdish samples = ((.333*(27/114))+(.161*(87/114)))=20.17%
or 9+14=23 and 23/114 = 20.17%
Aware_Dog
2010-07-26, 16:23
SO This R1* and I* means it could also be a new subgroup which wasn´t found before?
Well clearly, the poster Humanist knows a lot more in depth about the details of the sampling and study of the population in question than I do. I was just giving general remarks in regards to the use of the asteriks symbol, and in that regard, yes, it could mean (along with the other things mentioned) a new sub-lineage that has not been found yet.
It is present ~14% in Turkish folks. ~10% among Lebanese Druze. About half that among the Maronites, Lebanese Arabs, and Armenians. It is observed at ~2-4% in Jordan and Syria.
So the 25% figure is wrong. It's more like 5-10%.
hi i wanted to ask what the haplogroup R1* and R1a1* represents because acording to Max Planck Institut they found 6% R1*(M173) 8% R1b1* and 19,5 % R1a1* (M17) among kurds of Anatolia.
And also 25% I* (M170) Was found Among kurds what does this * means.
It means that Kurds seem to be the predecessors of Europeans. The people who built towns like Catal-Hoyuk eventually made it into Europe via. the Neolithic expansions. Don't get all excited though because this was thousands of years ago and Middle-Easterners and Europeans have long since been seperated, and evolution has took its gradual course.
It means that Kurds seem to be the predecessors of Europeans. The people who built towns like Catal-Hoyuk eventually made it into Europe via. the Neolithic expansions. Don't get all excited though because this was thousands of years ago and Middle-Easterners and Europeans have long since been seperated, and evolution has took its gradual course.
many sholars believe that the Haplogroup I comes from Asian Minor it seems like it comes direkt from the kurdish region.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:14 ----------
So the 25% figure is wrong. It's more like 5-10%.
No it is between 20-25% some sources say 25% some other 20,17 % in hole northern middle east it is between 5-15%.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:24 ----------
I had created the graphic in preparation for the support of certain data I wished to soon present regarding the Kurmanji (Turkish) samples from the Nasidze study.
Regarding the numbers. I am not certain I understand you. Are you stating that I have erred?
My calculation:
ZazakiT = 27 samples (.333 +M170) = ~9 samples
KurmanjiT = 87 samples (.161 +M170) = ~14 samples
Total samples = 114 samples
Total +M170 sample % among Turkish Kurdish samples = ((.333*(27/114))+(.161*(87/114)))=20.17%
or 9+14=23 and 23/114 = 20.17%
your calculation is a bit wrong i will tell you why. You can´t mix up the kurmanci and zazaki group to ones and put the samples together because the zaza only live in regions were I is predominant while kurmanci speakers are more spred around east anatolia. you have to cross the population of zazas with the population of kurmanc. the population of kurmanc is 5-6 times as high as the Zaza population. so you have to cross 33.3% throw 6 what makes 5,5% and this you have to ad to 16,1 what comes up to ~21,5-22%. What also is a big problem is that many clans are zazaki kurmanci mixed( it is the same by my) that means you speak maybe kurmanc but your uncle could also speak zazaki:D. however the region is extremly mixed i even know 2 originaly seldcukid familys from bitlis who consider themself as kurds. But thats no problem everyone who calls him kurd is a kurd for me. The funny thing is he says every year some turkish profesor come to our region and tell us something about beeing the original gockturks whilr my uncle is swearing at them in kurdisch:D
many sholars believe that the Haplogroup I comes from Asian Minor[COLOR="Silver"]
Almost every European haplogroup came from Asia Minor, but that doesn't mean we are all Turkish/Kurdish, because if that was the case than we might as well just call all humans on earth Ethiopians since this is our ultimate origin before the Middle-East. Europeans have been away from the Middle-East for 40,000 years, more than enough time to lose any Kurdish monobrows via. evolution.
many sholars believe that the Haplogroup I comes from Asian Minor it seems like it comes direkt from the kurdish region.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:14 ----------
No it is between 20-25% some sources say 25% some other 20,17 % in hole northern middle east it is between 5-15%.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:24 ----------
your calculation is a bit wrong i will tell you why. You can´t mix up the kurmanci and zazaki group to ones and put the samples together because the zaza only live in regions were I is predominant while kurmanci speakers are more spred around east anatolia. you have to cross the population of zazas with the population of kurmanc. the population of kurmanc is 5-6 times as high as the Zaza population. so you have to cross 33.3% throw 6 what makes 5,5% and this you have to ad to 16,1 what comes up to ~21,5-22%. What also is a big problem is that many clans are zazaki kurmanci mixed( it is the same by my) that means you speak maybe kurmanc but your uncle could also speak zazaki:D. however the region is extremly mixed i even know 2 originaly seldcukid familys from bitlis who consider themself as kurds. But thats no problem everyone who calls him kurd is a kurd for me. The funny thing is he says every year some turkish profesor come to our region and tell us something about beeing the original gockturks whilr my uncle is swearing at them in kurdisch:D
Sounds too high for a Middle Eastern group like Kurds. The Turkish population has around 14%; Armenians and other northern Middle Eastern groups are around 10%...Kurds are probably in this range as well.
hi i wanted to ask what the haplogroup R1* and R1a1* represents because acording to Max Planck Institut they found 6% R1*(M173) 8% R1b1* and 19,5 % R1a1* (M17) among kurds of Anatolia.
And also 25% I* (M170) Was found Among kurds what does this * means.
Yes those figures sound like a bunch of bullshit. 25% hI? GTFO of here.
Almost every European haplogroup came from Asia Minor, but that doesn't mean we are all Turkish/Kurdish, because if that was the case than we might as well just call all humans on earth Ethiopians since this is our ultimate origin before the Middle-East. Europeans have been away from the Middle-East for 40,000 years, more than enough time to lose any Kurdish monobrows via. evolution.
You don´t have realy much knowledge about evolution do you?:D for gods sake how could the divide between europe and middle east be over 40 thousand years old while a genetic drift from one haplogroup to another not even take as long (mostly between 1-10 tousand years) so how the hell could it need longer when the middle eastern people got the same haplogroup like it is today in europe? :whoco:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml
And also the Indo-Europeans created 5-6 Thousand years ago. So what you wrote is totaly nonsense.
and their was never something like a bari between the middle east and Europe even 500 years ago there were mixings between europeans and middle eastern people.
by the way the skelets found in Catal-Hoyuk were of Haplpgroup J2 origin not I
Kurdish monobrows via. evolution.
This mostly comes from People who themselves are ugly as fuc.. with little hair on their head:thumbsup:
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 04:52 ----------
Yes those figures sound like a bunch of bullshit. 25% hI? GTFO of here.
GTFO of were? your momas ass?:D
Forumbiodiversity belongs to you?
Are you an kyrgiz tatar? An kirgiz Tatar who cares about european haplogroups? boy almost 50% of you kyrgiz people are zentral asien R1a.
Humanist
2010-07-28, 05:53
many sholars believe that the Haplogroup I comes from Asian Minor it seems like it comes direkt from the kurdish region.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:14 ----------
No it is between 20-25% some sources say 25% some other 20,17 % in hole northern middle east it is between 5-15%.
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 00:24 ----------
your calculation is a bit wrong i will tell you why. You can´t mix up the kurmanci and zazaki group to ones and put the samples together because the zaza only live in regions were I is predominant while kurmanci speakers are more spred around east anatolia. you have to cross the population of zazas with the population of kurmanc. the population of kurmanc is 5-6 times as high as the Zaza population. so you have to cross 33.3% throw 6 what makes 5,5% and this you have to ad to 16,1 what comes up to ~21,5-22%. What also is a big problem is that many clans are zazaki kurmanci mixed( it is the same by my) that means you speak maybe kurmanc but your uncle could also speak zazaki:D. however the region is extremly mixed i even know 2 originaly seldcukid familys from bitlis who consider themself as kurds. But thats no problem everyone who calls him kurd is a kurd for me. The funny thing is he says every year some turkish profesor come to our region and tell us something about beeing the original gockturks whilr my uncle is swearing at them in kurdisch:D
My calculation is not incorrect. You are referring to a flaw in logic. But neither is it that. I was attempting to understand where you were coming up with your figure. The most obvious explanation for your ~25% "I" HG frequency was that you had taken the sum of ~16% and ~33%, and then divided by two.
for gods sake how could the divide between europe and middle east be over 40 thousand years old while a genetic drift from one haplogroup to another not even take as long (mostly between 1-0 tousand years) so how the hell could it need longer when the middle eastern people got the same haplogroup like it is today in europe?
Some Europeans are descended from people who are recent arrivals to Europe, and some, mostly northern Europeans are descended from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who have been in Europe much longer than those Neolithic farmers.
And also the Indo-Europeans created 5-6 Thousand years ago. So what you wrote is totaly nonsense.
No, most Europeans are not descended from Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans mostly only left a cultural and lingusitic legacy in Europe.
and their was never something like a bari between the middle east and Europe even 500 years ago there were mixings between europeans and middle eastern people.
This is just wishful thinking on your part. You are only saying this because you have no pride in being Kurdish and now want to connect yourself with Europe, which is just pathetic. The mixing between Middle-Easterners and Europeans in the last millenium is comparable to the amount of mixing between Africans and Europeans, it's almost non-existent.
by the way the skelets found in Catal-Hoyuk were of Haplpgroup J2 origin not I
Prove it. Not that I really care.
This mostly comes from People who themselves are ugly as fuc.. with little hair on their head:thumbsup:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bnT7vAAw1oM/SDxfe7UvBMI/AAAAAAAAAAc/sXsxBSU4qAQ/s320/monobrow6ik.jpg
:lol:
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 06:00
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
yes I is much in kurdish area too, in a specific place. but never goes higher than %20 in certain places, and some parts very low. eastern turks and kurds most common haplogroup is J groups. in all the sources I check, coming same conclusion. specially J2. native mesopotamian
http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2.png
Sounds too high for a Middle Eastern group like Kurds. The Turkish population has around 14%; Armenians and other northern Middle Eastern groups are around 10%...Kurds are probably in this range as well.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
eighth page
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 05:09 ----------
Some Europeans are descended from people who are recent arrivals to Europe, and some, mostly northern Europeans are descended from Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who have been in Europe much longer than those Neolithic farmers.
now i know who you are you sound like agrippas son you son of a bitc.. the Hunters and gathereres however are from caucasus too.
No, most Europeans are not descended from Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans mostly only left a cultural and lingusitic legacy in Europe.
from east germany to Russia the haplogroup R1a is higher than 30% (what is the indo european haplogroup)
This is just wishful thinking on your part. You are only saying this because you have no pride in being Kurdish and now want to connect yourself with Europe, which is just pathetic. The mixing between Middle-Easterners and Europeans in the last millenium is comparable to the amount of mixing between Africans and Europeans, it's almost non-existent.
You know what? you are as paranoid as stupid. go to the first site and see which mother fuc..... idiot first wrote that kurds are the ancestors of europeans:whoco:
go get some life you idiot i just asked about the *
Prove it. Not that I really care.
not i made the genetic test on skeletons go search on google you lazy pig
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bnT7vAAw1oM/SDxfe7UvBMI/AAAAAAAAAAc/sXsxBSU4qAQ/s320/monobrow6ik.jpg
:lol:
first the guy is no Kurd i know exactly who he is. second thats typical for ugly ass motherfu.kers without girlfriend try to feel better showing some crazy people. Show me your face so we can see how you look like.
now i know who you are you sound like agrippas son you son of a bitc.. the Hunters and gathereres however are from caucasus too.
:lol: This is funny. People from the Caucasus are primarily descended from early Mesopotamian farmers, not hunter-gatherers, you idiot.
You know what? you are as paranoid as stupid. go to the first site and see which mother fuc..... idiot first wrote that kurds are the ancestors of europeans:whoco:
:lol:
My calculation is not incorrect. You are referring to a flaw in logic. But neither is it that. I was attempting to understand where you were coming up with your figure. The most obvious explanation for your ~25% "I" HG frequency was that you had taken the sum of ~16% and ~33%, and then divided by two.
Clearly that is flawed logic. A Turk would have him divide by zero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0j6ymr3m0
:o This video shocked me,Kurds have too much Central Asian markers too!
Humanist
2010-07-28, 09:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0j6ymr3m0
:o This video shocked me,Kurds have too much Central Asian markers too!
That video is pure rubbish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0j6ymr3m0
:o This video shocked me,Kurds have too much Central Asian markers too!
The guy who made this video is also no kurd i talked to him some idiot who doesen´t know to handle with dna Tests. It is the same bullshit like the video "Assyrians are no Assyrians"
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 12:18 ----------
:lol: This is funny. People from the Caucasus are primarily descended from early Mesopotamian farmers, not hunter-gatherers, you idiot.
:lol:
your logic makes no sense almost all Haplogroups in Europe come from Middle East. R1a, R1b, J2, I, G, E1b1 so West Europe is predominantly R1b so this "hunther and gatheres" have to be from middle east too.
You should realy get a life man. typical provocater i asked for the* you came with europe. I was just Pride that my nation could be the missing ancestors of a part of the world, you tried to make fun on my folk with your monobrow shit whil i bet you look like shit yourself. And i don´t understan what you care of europeans while you say by yourself you are a krygiz( what I don´t believe). Iam no wannabe European nor i wanted to prove how european iam i don´t need this stupid bullshi... some of you people here should realy get a live:evilgrin:
here i have the Haplogroups among kurds
the biggest ones are
I 20-25%
R1a ~19%
G ~13%
R1b ~9%
J2~ 7%
T ~5%
R2 ~ 5%
E1b1 ~ 3- 4%
NOP ~ 3-4%
And this Results are only from Kurds in Anatolia.
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 13:34
That video is pure rubbish.
Its not. In turkey, kurds generally look more asian influence than western turks percentage. specially alevi kurds so turanid. they have more turkmen mixes than many other turks. its because of, in the past there wasnt nationalism before french revolution and ppl were marry according to religion in ottoman. and kurds were in and around the areas most turkmen were living.
kurdish singer from turkey
http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/4b382af0484571e7f3f33596b9b63a6a24151/aynur+do%C4%9Fan
many of them shows it or just turanid influence in look. I bet it depends on the area.
btw even today many kurds know about their turkmen mixes, also in near history they kept having it. PKK leaders mother is turkmen root either. also many northern Iraq kurds have turkmens in their families, not only turkey.
Its not bullshit or surprise, its normal and expected
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 13:36 ----------
here i have the Haplogroups among kurds
the biggest ones are
I 20-25%
R1a ~19%
R1b ~9%
R2 ~ 5%
G ~12,5%
J2~ 7%
E1b1 ~ 3- 4%
T ~5%
And this Results are only from Kurds in Anatolia.
source?? all the sources I check shows in general about %15 just like western anatolia. in somke areas of kurds reach to %20 and never more. and J2 is so dominant in all kurdish area.
Its not. In turkey, kurds generally look more asian influence than western turks percentage. specially alevi kurds so turanid. they have more turkmen mixes than many other turks. its because of, in the past there wasnt nationalism before french revolution and ppl were marry according to religion in ottoman. and kurds were in and around the areas most turkmen were living.
kurdish singer from turkey
http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/4b382af0484571e7f3f33596b9b63a6a24151/aynur+do%C4%9Fan
many of them shows it or just turanid influence in look. I bet it depends on the area.
btw even today many kurds know about their turkmen mixes, also in near history they kept having it. PKK leaders mother is turkmen root either. also many northern Iraq kurds have turkmens in their families, not only turkey.
Its not bullshit or surprise, its normal and expected
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 13:36 ----------
source?? all the sources I check shows in general about %15 just like western anatolia. in somke areas of kurds reach to %20 and never more. and J2 is so dominant in all kurdish area.
with bullshit he means that the hole Video is bullshit that "kurds are no kurds" because they have found more than one haplogroup. But yes it is true some kurds carry NOP among them but they only found ~2% C ( from Mongolai) and like ~3% N
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 12:45 ----------
Its not. In turkey, kurds generally look more asian influence than western turks percentage. specially alevi kurds so turanid. they have more turkmen mixes than many other turks. its because of, in the past there wasnt nationalism before french revolution and ppl were marry according to religion in ottoman. and kurds were in and around the areas most turkmen were living.
kurdish singer from turkey
http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/4b382af0484571e7f3f33596b9b63a6a24151/aynur+do%C4%9Fan
many of them shows it or just turanid influence in look. I bet it depends on the area.
btw even today many kurds know about their turkmen mixes, also in near history they kept having it. PKK leaders mother is turkmen root either. also many northern Iraq kurds have turkmens in their families, not only turkey.
Its not bullshit or surprise, its normal and expected
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 13:36 ----------
source?? all the sources I check shows in general about %15 just like western anatolia. in somke areas of kurds reach to %20 and never more. and J2 is so dominant in all kurdish area.
U gave you two sources
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
we don´t talk about the hole kurdish Nation please don´t mix up things. As hole hole nation of course it doesen´t goes over 17-18% because almost 2/5 of Kurds live outside Anatolia (In Iraq 4-5 Mio Kurds in Iran between 5-7 Mio).
As hole kurdish nation it is under 20%
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 13:46
with bullshit he means that the hole Video is bullshit that "kurds are no kurds" because they have found more than one haplogroup. But yes it is true some kurds carry NOP among them but they only found ~2% C ( from Mongolai) and like ~3% N
N in Turkish about %4 and C is less than %2 too. but all non caucasian markers together (A, Q,N,O,C..) nearly %8 in whole turkey. which is not few : )
Kurds are kurds. but they are more related with armenian than turkmen. but they have relation with turkmen also. they is no such a thing pureness. when kurds dna shows other influences, it makes perfect sense on history and eyes. its normal.
N in Turkish about %4 and C is less than %2 too. but all non caucasian markers together (A, Q,N,O,C..) nearly %8 in whole turkey. which is not few : )
Kurds are kurds. but they are more related with armenian than turkmen. but they have relation with turkmen also. they is no such a thing pureness. when kurds dna shows other influences, it makes perfect sense on history and eyes. its normal.
I know and i didn´t deny it you want to see a real good kurdish brother of me from Mardin. Look at him.
http://www.imgbox.de/show/img/ikwn07Kuti.JPG
:D
And the funny thing is he is extremly radical kurd. No one realy ever acted like he is not one of ours. But also it must be said that this look is not typible.
And i think i also wrote before that for me it doesen´t matter how you look if someone calls himself kurd he is a kurd for me look at the first or second page you can read it.
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 13:52
with bullshit he means that the hole Video is bullshit that "kurds are no kurds" because they have found more than one haplogroup. But yes it is true some kurds carry NOP among them but they only found ~2% C ( from Mongolai) and like ~3% N
---------- Post added 2010-07-28 at 12:45 ----------
U gave you two sources
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
we don´t talk about the hole kurdish Nation please don´t mix up things. As hole hole nation of course it doesen´t goes over 17-18% because almost half 2/5 of Kurds live outside Anatolia (In Iraq 4-5 Mio Kurds in Iran between 5-7 Mio).
As hole kurdish nation it is under 20%
the first link u gave I know it I read it all in the past there is no evidence and saying about it. that shows all anatolian haplogroup almost equal spread around.
the second u sent is the worst source on the internet. you can find countless source not shows it more than %15 in general. only certain area kurds have about %20. and western anatolians I is spread around in larger geography than kurds.
the first link u gave I know it I read it all in the past there is no evidence and saying about it. that shows all anatolian haplogroup almost equal spread around.
the second u sent is the worst source on the internet. you can find countless source not shows it more than %15 in general. only certain area kurds have about %20. and western anatolians I is spread around in larger geography than kurds.
could you show me your sources? because i have never seen a source claiming that the frequenz of I among Kurds in Anatolia is under 20%. Maybe you mean the hole kurdish Nation. As hole than it could be that it is by 14-17%. The first source max planck institut is the biggest in Europe and one of the biggest in the hole world. Maybe even the biggest.
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 14:07
could you show me your sources? because the first source max planck institut is the biggest in Europe and one of the biggest in the hole world. Maybe even the biggest.
yes. first my source is the one u sent me on your first link.
some others
http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2_Y-DNA.htm
http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
Plus-- J2 is the old mesopotamian marker. in maps and articles about anatolia u can always see it high in kurdish areas in eastern turks and kurds. J1`s most carriers in Anatolia are turks. kurds dont have much common with J1.
I comes so high in turkey, iran and greece is because of it was born in asia minor (anatolia). kurmanji kurds in georgia, almost half of them have R2 (indian- aryan marker), turkeys kurmanjis are different, it has it lower.
yes. first my source is the one u sent me on your first link.
some others
http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2_Y-DNA.htm
http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
Plus-- J2 is the old mesopotamian marker. in maps and articles about anatolia u can always see it high in kurdish areas in eastern turks and kurds. J1`s most carriers in Anatolia are turks. kurds dont have much common with J1.
I comes so high in turkey, iran and greece is because of it was born in asia minor (anatolia).
I don´t know what the haplogroup J2 has to do with I but ok.
When i see what thegeneticatlas.com takes as sources you can´t be serious showing me this as a good site.
They use samples of some thousand kurds from Jordan for their site lol. Thats like using samples from Germans in Dubai as represantativ for Germans.
here thats their sources.
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_nasidze2005.htm
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_nebel2001.htm
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_brinkmann1998.htm
you can´t be realy serious using samples from some thousand diaspora kurds from Jordan Armenia(5-10 Thousand) jewish kurds from Israel and only from iraqi Kurds as representative
And look at this!
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_nasidze2005.htm
they use Nasidze as a source only for mtDNA lol what a shity graphic is this?
here the source nasidze
pon page eight they show exactly how much I was found.
And now look at this
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_nasidze2005.htm
They don´t use the yDNA results thats a extrem shity Website:D
The second and third source
http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
are the same as the source i have shown you.
kurmanji kurds in georgia, almost half of them have R2 (indian- aryan marker), turkeys kurmanjis are different, it has it lower.
Kurmanci Kurds from Georgia are Ezidis and their number is not higher than 5-10 Thousand. using them as representativ you can´t be realy serios. And R2 is not only an Indian Haplogroup. All Northiranian tribes used to have R2 They found 10% R2 also among Ossetians the descents of Sarmatians. And even Chechens use to have 15% R2
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-07-28, 14:37
why not? you only shown one website support it reaches about %25. no other source. btw those tests are not done to all populations. they are done with certain area ppl with some percentages of them, so they are approximately guesses. the real percentage is about that much but doesnt have to be exactly the same. the real percentage of I would be maybe %30 on kurds or %20 or less. because everybody not included to tests, nobody knows real numbers. those are approximately.
thats why I stated J2 is the highest is more important for the area. because about some test shows about %5 percent difference, %10 difference means not much. tests show approximately numbers anyway.
why not? you only shown one website support it reaches about %25. no other source. btw those tests are not done to all populations. they are done with certain area ppl with some percentages of them, so they are approximately guesses. the real percentage is about that much but doesnt have to be exactly the same. the real percentage of I would be maybe %30 on kurds or %20 or less. because everybody not included to tests, nobody knows real numbers. those are approximately.
thats why I stated J2 is the highest is more important for the area. because about some test shows about %5 percent difference, %10 difference means not much. tests show approximately numbers anyway.
the site you have shown uses only jewish kurds jordanian armenian georgian and Iraqi kurds as source how can that be serious? using some thousand armanian jordanian etc kurds as representativ. I have shown you two sources. Even if Eupedia could be not so good but it is way better than the source you have given. I don´t make you quilty for that but everyone who sees this site can´t take it serios. diaspora kurds doesen´t represent kurds from homelands they could just as well go to pakistan and Afghanistan using the thousand kurds living there as samples it would be the same wrong way.
here i have the Haplogroups among kurds
the biggest ones are
I 20-25%
R1a ~19%
G ~13%
R1b ~9%
J2~ 7%
T ~5%
R2 ~ 5%
E1b1 ~ 3- 4%
NOP ~ 3-4%
A bunch of bullshit. The only Kurds who had 19% R1a were Zaza speaking Kurds, a minority in Turkey, the rest of the Kurds had 8% R1a.
Also the 20-25% hI is obviously a exaggeration.
A bunch of bullshit. The only Kurds who had 19% R1a were Zaza speaking Kurds, a minority in Turkey, the rest of the Kurds had 8% R1a.
Also the 20-25% hI is obviously a exaggeration.
hmm your haplogroup is R1gay it seems you are realy a R1gay
Zaza are not realy a minority i have to know it iam partly one. like 1/5 of the kurdish population is Zaza. not 8% , 12,7% was found among the kurmanci Speakers.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
anyway why are you argueing with me in my thread if you don´t like kurds why are you than here? searching for a guy like you my R1gay Boy:evilgrin:?
Humanist
2010-07-29, 00:36
Its not.
It is an appeal to one's prejudice. Any data presented, subsequent to that introduction, must be rigorously scrutinized. What is proposed --even if we do not consider the absurd introduction-- is preposterous. Any person with a grasp of the science will likely not hesitate dismissing this video for the garbage that it is.
I'm not sure if some of these numbers are reliable/true but assuming that some of these Anatolian Kurdish groups are 25% I while others are more in the 5-7% range what does this indicate in terms of the ethnic genesis of the Kurdish population. Does it mean that at some point in history a large number of Europeans (maybe from the Balkans) settled in that region and later became part of a local Kurdish population?
I'm not sure if some of these numbers are reliable/true but assuming that some of these Anatolian Kurdish groups are 25% I while others are more in the 5-7% range what does this indicate in terms of the ethnic genesis of the Kurdish population. Does it mean that at some point in history a large number of Europeans (maybe from the Balkans) settled in that region and later became part of a local Kurdish population?
I is spred around in the northkurdish area so it can´t be that the frequency in north change from 30 to 5%. What i know is that I is found in that high frequency only among anatolian, syrian, and some northiraqi villages near anatolian border but throughout all kurds the frequency of I is between 15-18% not much higher than among the turks, Iranians or Greeks. It goes the same way like among turks. Turks are divided in a more European West (mostly I, J2, R1b and G) and a more caucasian central and northeast(mostly J2, G,R1a-b) while kurds are divided into a nore mesolthik North and West(mostly I R1a,R1b, G) and in a neolthik east and South(J2, R1b, R1a, and some G) Thats why i wrote in the opening Post THIS RESULTS ARE ONLY FROM KURDS OF ANATOLIA.
it could be that I is from balkanian people setteld back in Asia Minor but the I found among kurds has also a diversity it could also be that this region is the original birthplace of this haplogroup.
Its a possibility that Haplogroup I may have entered the Anatolian genepool through the Celtic Galacians who settled in Asia Minor.
Its a possibility that Haplogroup I may have entered the Anatolian genepool through the Celtic Galacians who settled in Asia Minor.
don´t think so because celtics were dominantly R1b
Overwhelming majority of Irish are R1b. Then again, they're just "Celticized Basques"! :p
Kurmanci Kurds from Georgia are Ezidis and their number is not higher than 5-10 Thousand. using them as representativ you can´t be realy serios. And R2 is not only an Indian Haplogroup. All Northiranian tribes used to have R2 They found 10% R2 also among Ossetians the descents of Sarmatians. And even Chechens use to have 15% R2
Maybe, but when you compare the sample sizes and distribution of the Indian studies and other non-Indian ones where R2 is found, it becomes more clear that R2 is more of an Indian haplogroup (Not Aryan, but rather Indian), and it has no language attachment because it is also found in great numbers among Dravidian speaking Telugu population in Southeast India, of course it's also found majorly among Indo-European speaking Indians like Bengali and Sinhalese people (Sinhalese background is mostly from Bengal and South India), but all of this indicates that R2 is strongest in Eastern India and becomes less strong as you go west.
The Yezidie sample where R2 showed up as 44% is actually not surprising in my opinion, for starters the Yezidies are a small community to begin with (Specially in the Caucasus where it's smaller than the Iraqi community), and on top of all they don't really mix with other populations due to their religion, when a Yezidie marries a non-Yezidie they are no longer Yezidies (Which is probably the case of some of the Muslim Kurdish R2's), and since they mix with one another the R2 significance showed in the study.
There's also another note about Yezidie oral traditions, according to their stories they migrated from India 4000 years ago and been in Mesopotamia for a long time, they had interactions with other Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism which explains why they have some elements, but also keep in mind that their major symbol is the Peacock, which is a national symbol of India where the bird comes from, historically speaking there was an Indian kingdom a little over 2000 years ago that existed in the Caucasus by the name of Sindoi, and around a thousand years before that there was an Indo-Aryan royal house that ruled over Mesopotamia by the name o Mitanni, although it's still unclear whether Mitanni migrated from India or were early pure Aryans, either way I think most cases of R2 outside of India migrated from there one way or another.
Ohh and I'm an Assyrian, just in case someone tries to claim Indian bias here :)
Maybe, but when you compare the sample sizes and distribution of the Indian studies and other non-Indian ones where R2 is found, it becomes more clear that R2 is more of an Indian haplogroup (Not Aryan, but rather Indian), and it has no language attachment because it is also found in great numbers among Dravidian speaking Telugu population in Southeast India, of course it's also found majorly among Indo-European speaking Indians like Bengali and Sinhalese people (Sinhalese background is mostly from Bengal and South India), but all of this indicates that R2 is strongest in Eastern India and becomes less strong as you go west.
The Yezidie sample where R2 showed up as 44% is actually not surprising in my opinion, for starters the Yezidies are a small community to begin with (Specially in the Caucasus where it's smaller than the Iraqi community), and on top of all they don't really mix with other populations due to their religion, when a Yezidie marries a non-Yezidie they are no longer Yezidies (Which is probably the case of some of the Muslim Kurdish R2's), and since they mix with one another the R2 significance showed in the study.
There's also another note about Yezidie oral traditions, according to their stories they migrated from India 4000 years ago and been in Mesopotamia for a long time, they had interactions with other Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism which explains why they have some elements, but also keep in mind that their major symbol is the Peacock, which is a national symbol of India where the bird comes from, historically speaking there was an Indian kingdom a little over 2000 years ago that existed in the Caucasus by the name of Sindoi, and around a thousand years before that there was an Indo-Aryan royal house that ruled over Mesopotamia by the name o Mitanni, although it's still unclear whether Mitanni migrated from India or were early pure Aryans, either way I think most cases of R2 outside of India migrated from there one way or another.
Ohh and I'm an Assyrian, just in case someone tries to claim Indian bias here :)
Could be but it is the same like with R1a having the most R2 Haplgroup doesen´t means that this haplogroup has to be originated from their. For example Northwestindian People have one of the highest R1a frequency but i don´t realy believe that it is originaly from their. Also you have to mark that like R1a R2 differs too. In Polen it is R1a1a1 In India R1a* The same i think goes for R2 in Middle East and India.
Could be but it is the same like with R1a having the most R2 Haplgroup doesen´t means that this haplogroup has to be originated from their. For example Northwestindian People have one of the highest R1a frequency but i don´t realy believe that it is originaly from their. Also you have to mark that like R1a R2 differs too. In Polen it is R1a1a1 In India R1a* The same i think goes for R2 in Middle East and India.
I never said R2 originated in India, I said most R2's likely migrated from that part of the world to the middle east, in the case of Yezidies they have oral tradition that they came from India and they have an Indian symbol (Peacock), so there might be a connection there.
I never said R2 originated in India, I said most R2's likely migrated from that part of the world to the middle east, in the case of Yezidies they have oral tradition that they came from India and they have an Indian symbol (Peacock), so there might be a connection there.
The Yezidis carry also much G and J2 and thats why i realy think, that Ezidis might be more from Central Asia (the Region between Pakistan, Afghanistan and NorthIndia) because it is known that the Haplogroup G is also brought by Northiranic Scyths to the middle east. This combination also exist among the Pakistani People even if it G is not so high amongs them. But yeah i think they came from somewhere east. Any by the way their religion is a mix of old Indian and Mithraist tradition they also worship the light and sun. The Fire is also a holy symbol so they might have zoroastrian influences too.
T-Dominator
2010-08-01, 15:03
DNA testing done by:
1. Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Department of Evolutionary Genetics
2. Norwegian University of Science and Technology
3. H&I DNA Reference Laboratory, National Blood Service
DNA testing was done on 156 Kurds. The Results: We discover that the 156 Kurds did not carry one Haplogroup. So that they carried the following Haplogroups:
Haplogroup E
Haplogroup C
Haplogoup K*
Haplogroup P1
Haplogroup P*
Haplogroup R1*
Haplogroup R1a1*
Haplogroup G*
Haplogroup J2*
Haplogroup I*
Kurds are mixed people. Kurd is not a race.
DNA testing done by:
1. Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Department of Evolutionary Genetics
2. Norwegian University of Science and Technology
3. H&I DNA Reference Laboratory, National Blood Service
DNA testing was done on 156 Kurds. The Results: We discover that the 156 Kurds did not carry one Haplogroup. So that they carried the following Haplogroups:
Haplogroup E
Haplogroup C
Haplogoup K*
Haplogroup P1
Haplogroup P*
Haplogroup R1*
Haplogroup R1a1*
Haplogroup G*
Haplogroup J2*
Haplogroup I*
Kurds are mixed people. Kurd is not a race.
:) I hope Humanist will give you the answer. Don´t we have a rule against Allegations without any Sense?
Humanist
2010-08-01, 15:11
DNA testing done by:
1. Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Department of Evolutionary Genetics
2. Norwegian University of Science and Technology
3. H&I DNA Reference Laboratory, National Blood Service
DNA testing was done on 156 Kurds. The Results: We discover that the 156 Kurds did not carry one Haplogroup. So that they carried the following Haplogroups:
Haplogroup E
Haplogroup C
Haplogoup K*
Haplogroup P1
Haplogroup P*
Haplogroup R1*
Haplogroup R1a1*
Haplogroup G*
Haplogroup J2*
Haplogroup I*
Kurds are mixed people. Kurd is not a race.
This appears to be verbatim from the Kurdish DNA video. Either way, your logic is flawed. (NOTE: I did not say that your conclusion is necessarily wrong!) Second of all, if you are going to copy and paste, cite your source.
T-Dominator
2010-08-01, 15:19
This appears to be verbatim from the Kurdish DNA video. Either way, your logic is flawed. (NOTE: I did not say that your conclusion is necessarily wrong!) Second of all, if you are going to copy and paste, cite your source.
I did write the content above with my fingers. So that you know I can't c/p anything from a "video". Yes I stole the content from a video but this is out of topic, the content is important. There is not "one" Kurd race. Kurds are Indo-Iranized Levantine remainders.
BTW, the source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0j6ymr3m0
Haplogroups found among Turks.
Haplogroup I*
Haplogroup R1a*
Haplogroup R1b*
Haplogroup R2
Haplogroup L*
Haplogroup E*
Haplogroup T*
Haplogroup G*
Haplogroup J1*
Haplogroup J2*
Haplogroup Q
Haplogroup N
Haplogroup H
Haplogroup C*
Haplogroup O
That means Turks are no Humans! They are mixed alians :D
Source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
T-Dominator
2010-08-01, 15:54
Haplogroups found among Turks.
Haplogroup I*
Haplogroup R1a*
Haplogroup R1b*
Haplogroup R2
Haplogroup L*
Haplogroup E*
Haplogroup T*
Haplogroup G*
Haplogroup J1*
Haplogroup J2*
Haplogroup Q
Haplogroup N
That means Turks are no Humans! They are mixed alians :D
Source: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
What's your aim Biogay? All of the countries that you can think has a lot of Haplogroups in distribution but we know their "ethnic" origin. What is Kurdish ethnic origin? Simple: Indo-Iranized Levantine remainders. Kurd is a term for Islamicized and Levantine mixed Yezidis. Your people's from India and can be considered as Aryan or something like that but Kurdish population is near to Semitic populations rahter than Iranic populations.
Humanist
2010-08-01, 15:55
mixed alians :D
We are the true aliens, it appears. :) The Evidence of Alien DNA (http://www.amazon.com/There-Were-Giants-Upon-Earth/dp/1591431212)
Zecharia Sitchin (http://www.sitchin.com/)
The Yezidis carry also much G and J2 and thats why i realy think, that Ezidis might be more from Central Asia (the Region between Pakistan, Afghanistan and NorthIndia) because it is known that the Haplogroup G is also brought by Northiranic Scyths to the middle east. This combination also exist among the Pakistani People even if it G is not so high amongs them. But yeah i think they came from somewhere east. Any by the way their religion is a mix of old Indian and Mithraist tradition they also worship the light and sun. The Fire is also a holy symbol so they might have zoroastrian influences too.
Based on what the Yizidies carry G? The one study I've seen says they have the following:
P1 (R2) - 44%
J2 - 32%
F* - 12%
K* (Probably T) - 8%
P* - 4%
http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
R2, J2, and F are all lineages found in South Asia, the lack of R1a1 is sort of puzzling but then again, the sample size in this study was only 25 people, you need a bigger sample for a better idea.
Based on what the Yizidies carry G? The one study I've seen says they have the following:
P1 (R2) - 44%
J2 - 32%
F* - 12%
K* (Probably T) - 8%
P* - 4%
http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
R2, J2, and F are all lineages found in South Asia, the lack of R1a1 is sort of puzzling but then again, the sample size in this study was only 25 people, you need a bigger sample for a better idea.
Your right but i heared one time that they found G also.
---------- Post added 2010-08-01 at 21:11 ----------
We are the true aliens, it appears. :) The Evidence of Alien DNA (http://www.amazon.com/There-Were-Giants-Upon-Earth/dp/1591431212)
Zecharia Sitchin (http://www.sitchin.com/)
AH Summerian Gods:D
---------- Post added 2010-08-01 at 21:13 ----------
What's your aim Biogay? All of the countries that you can think has a lot of Haplogroups in distribution but we know their "ethnic" origin. What is Kurdish ethnic origin? Simple: Indo-Iranized Levantine remainders. Kurd is a term for Islamicized and Levantine mixed Yezidis. Your people's from India and can be considered as Aryan or something like that but Kurdish population is near to Semitic populations rahter than Iranic populations.
Ah Understand Many Haplgroups among Kurds means that we are mixed people but even more Haplogroups among Turks just show the diversity. Go on it is funny to see how you make a jackass on your self:D
Humanist
2010-08-01, 23:07
My stab at taking a guess, based on Nasidze's guess of haplogroup frequencies among the 87 Kurmanji (T) samples:
Kurmanji.T
I 16%
J2 14%
R1a 13%
T 13%
E1b 10%
R2 8%
J1 6%
Q 6%
R1b 5%
H 4%
G 2%
F 1%
C 1%
D 1%
Y-DNA affinities based on the above guessed frequencies (descending order):
1 Greek
2 Leb.Druze
3 Turkish
4 Ashkenazi
5 Maronite
6 Leb.Sunni
7 Iranian
8 Calab_Sic
9 Iraqi
10 Rhodesli
11 IndianReg
12 Armenian
13 Egyptian
14 Leb.Shia
15 Assyrian
16 Cypriot
17 Jordanian
18 St. Thomas
19 Georgian
20 Syrian
21 Emirati
22 Saudi
23 Pal.(Acre)
24 Omani
25 Somali
26 Qatari
27 Yemeni
Compare to Turkish Y-DNA affinities:
1 Greek
2 Armenian
3 Calab_Sic
4 Ashkenazi
5 Assyrian
6 Iranian
7 Georgian
8 Leb.Sunni
9 Cypriot
10 Jordanian
11 Kurmanji.T
12 Rhodesli
13 Leb.Druze
14 Maronite
15 Iraqi
16 Leb.Shia
17 Syrian
18 Emirati
19 Egyptian
20 Saudi
21 Omani
22 Pal.(Acre)
23 Qatari
24 Yemeni
25 IndianReg
26 St. Thomas
27 Somali
Humanist
2010-08-02, 00:04
Geographically, at least, the Turkish Y-DNA affinities appear logical.
We are the true aliens, it appears. :) The Evidence of Alien DNA (http://www.amazon.com/There-Were-Giants-Upon-Earth/dp/1591431212)
Zecharia Sitchin (http://www.sitchin.com/)
We should tell all the Assyrians in Arizona to stay home; otherwise they might be deported :D
annihilus
2010-08-02, 00:08
Geographically, at least, the Turkish Y-DNA affinities appear logical.
Where is number 4?
karakoyunlu
2010-08-02, 00:09
6% Haplogroup Q, 1% C, 1% D, 13% R1a among Kurds? Sounds like there is a large Turkoman admixture, which we know happened.
A lot of Alevi Turkomans got Kurdified.
Humanist
2010-08-02, 00:21
6% Haplogroup Q, 1% C, 1% D, 13% R1a among Kurds? Sounds like there is a large Turkoman admixture, which we know happened.
A lot of Alevi Turkomans got Kurdified.
That is only what I believe. These are Nasidze's figures:
Population N E∗ C∗ K∗ P1 P∗ R1∗ R1a1∗ F∗ G∗ J2∗ I∗
YAP RPS4Y M9 M124 M45 M173 M17 M89 M201 M172 M170
KurmanjiT 87 0.115 0.011 0.127 0.080 0.057 0.046 0.127 0.115 0.023 0.138 0.161
Please refer to the SNPs chart on page 1, to get an idea why this data set is want of resolution.
Edit: Bioguy, if you wish to predict the haplogroup frequencies, based on Nasidze's figures, and with the SNP resolution in mind, please, go ahead and do so. I would be happy to run the correlation based on your figures, as long as they are mathematically possible given what I have stated.
6% Haplogroup Q, 1% C, 1% D, 13% R1a among Kurds? Sounds like there is a large Turkoman admixture, which we know happened.
A lot of Alevi Turkomans got Kurdified.
I'm not sure if this is the case or not but I saw a study one time that showed Kurds had more Turkic admixture than Anatolian Turks...how ironic that the people whom the state has tried to Turkicize in the past 80 yrs or so are already more Turkic than those who claim that identity proudly lol.
Humanist
2010-08-02, 00:27
Where is number 4?
Ashkenazi is a bit difficult to plot.
karakoyunlu
2010-08-02, 00:29
Nations give people and take people. It's a systemic thing.
Who knows how many people of Turkic background are in Arabia, the Caucasus, Russia, the Balkans, Iran, India, and the Maghreb?
Who knows how many people of Balkan, Kurdish, Persian, Arabic, Armenian, Assyrian background are in Turkey?
Life is like that. People don't make choices based on haplogroups, mostly we are creatures of economics. Of course we also make conscious choices. Balkan Turks were killed in millions, I think had they converted to Christianity they'd be allowed to stay there, it didn't happen too much. Same story with the Christians of Turkey. Or the Khazars? I don't think they thought their language would disappear in the future. They chose to leave with their Jewish brethren, hence the 5% Q, 12% R1a1.
Is Obama Kenyan or American? Of course he is American, looks like Kenya's loss, America's gain but in Kenya he may not have flourished.
Life is not straightforward. I am a very nationalistic Turk but first I am a human. I think anyone who knows a bit history, genetics and biology would have to first recognize his humanity. There is no escape from this fact. So the Kurds and Turks are so mixed maybe this can help us stop this stupid war. But I don't think it will stop some foreign countries from supporting the PKK. Anyways. Interesting data really.
I'm not sure if this is the case or not but I saw a study one time that showed Kurds had more Turkic admixture than Anatolian Turks...how ironic that the people whom the state has tried to Turkicize in the past 80 yrs or so are already more Turkic than those who claim that identity proudly lol.
My stab at taking a guess, based on Nasidze's guess of haplogroup frequencies among the 87 Kurmanji (T) samples:
Kurmanji.T
I 16%
J2 14%
R1a 13%
T 13%
E1b 10%
R2 8%
J1 6%
Q 6%
R1b 5%
H 4%
G 2%
F 1%
C 1%
D 1%
Y-DNA affinities based on the above guessed frequencies (descending order):
Where did you got your guesses? i don´t think from Nasidze because thats extremly wrong.
E is 11,5% according to Nasidze
F* is at 11,5%
and i don´t find J1, H or either Q. And since when R1a is an turkish haplogroup?
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
---------- Post added 2010-08-01 at 23:37 ----------
Oh now i See that it was your guesses but when it are your guesses you shouldn´t mix them up so the people think it might be founded Haplogroups.
karakoyunlu
2010-08-02, 00:39
R1a1 in Turkey is mostly found in high correlation with Q.
Where did you got your guesses? i don´t think from Nasidze because thats extremly wrong.
E is 11,5% according to Nasidze
F* is at 11,5%
and i don´t find J1, H or either Q. And since when R1a is an turkish haplogroup?
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
---------- Post added 2010-08-01 at 23:37 ----------
Oh now i See that it was your guesses but when it are your guesses you shouldn´t mix them up so the people think it might be founded Haplogroups.
R1a1 in Turkey is mostly found in high correlation with Q.
Where did you got this? Can´t you just one time make Allegations with some sources?
Humanist
2010-08-02, 00:55
Where did you got your guesses? i don´t think from Nasidze because thats extremly wrong.
E is 11,5% according to Nasidze
F* is at 11,5%
and i don´t find J1, H or either Q. And since when R1a is an turkish haplogroup?
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf
---------- Post added 2010-08-01 at 23:37 ----------
Oh now i See that it was your guesses but when it are your guesses you shouldn´t mix them up so the people think it might be founded Haplogroups.
Please read my posts more carefully the next time. Did you fail to notice all of the bold, italicized and underlined text? Second, and I do not mean to condescend, but make sure you can reconcile the data from 2005 to the present. Haplogroups have changed, and SNP resolution is much finer in 2010 than it was in 2005.
Please read my posts more carefully the next time. Did you fail to notice all of the bold, italicized and underlined text? Second, and I do not mean to condescend, but make sure you can reconcile the data from 2005 to the present. Haplogroups have changed, and SNP resolution is much finer in 2010 than it was in 2005.
you shouldn´t play games like mixing real results with your guesses so the people (like me) can´t see what are your guesses and what the real results. So the Haplogroups has changed and were are the results? do you have the link so i can see them?
And also why you didn´t added the results of Zazaki T to one while talking about kurdish haplogroups anatolia? am i no kurd?
Nations give people and take people. It's a systemic thing.
Who knows how many people of Turkic background are in Arabia, the Caucasus, Russia, the Balkans, Iran, India, and the Maghreb?
Who knows how many people of Balkan, Kurdish, Persian, Arabic, Armenian, Assyrian background are in Turkey?
Life is like that. People don't make choices based on haplogroups, mostly we are creatures of economics. Of course we also make conscious choices. Balkan Turks were killed in millions, I think had they converted to Christianity they'd be allowed to stay there, it didn't happen too much. Same story with the Christians of Turkey. Or the Khazars? I don't think they thought their language would disappear in the future. They chose to leave with their Jewish brethren, hence the 5% Q, 12% R1a1.
Is Obama Kenyan or American? Of course he is American, looks like Kenya's loss, America's gain but in Kenya he may not have flourished.
Life is not straightforward. I am a very nationalistic Turk but first I am a human. I think anyone who knows a bit history, genetics and biology would have to first recognize his humanity. There is no escape from this fact. So the Kurds and Turks are so mixed maybe this can help us stop this stupid war. But I don't think it will stop some foreign countries from supporting the PKK. Anyways. Interesting data really.
Well said. I was just pointing out the irony of that situation.
this Thread is long time out of topic i told a Mod to close it. And also who made the Tags for this Thread?
Humanist
2010-08-02, 01:13
you shouldn´t play games like mixing real results with your guesses so the people (like me) can´t see what are your guesses and what the real results. So the Haplogroups has changed and were are the results? do you have the link so i can see them?
And also why you didn´t added the results of Zazaki T to one while talking about kurdish haplogroups anatolia? am i no kurd?
Games? I play no games, sir. If you wish to carry on in this manner, so be it. I do not have the patience for it.
Games? I play no games, sir. If you wish to carry on in this manner, so be it. I do not have the patience for it.
with games i don´t mean that you made this just to fool the people my english is not so well. I mean you shouldn´t mix things up in one way people can´t see which are true and which not.
And could someone tell a mod to close this thread?
Humanist
2010-08-02, 01:34
with games i don´t mean that you made this just to fool the people my english is not so well. I mean you shouldn´t mix things up in one way people can´t see which are true and which not.
And could someone tell a mod to close this thread?
The frequencies are on the top of page 408, Table 3: MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)
karakoyunlu
2010-08-02, 01:35
Most Q'a and R1a1'a in Turkey are from Eastern Anatolia and Central Anatolia. You can go read Cinnioglu's paper. It is well documented there.
Where did you got this? Can´t you just one time make Allegations with some sources?
The frequencies are on the top of page 408, Table 3: MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)
i know and i couldn´t find anything about J1 H and Q. I think i wrote this some posts before.
Humanist
2010-08-02, 03:28
i know and i couldn´t find anything about J1 H and Q. I think i wrote this some posts before.
Humanist
Nasidze
I 16%
16%
J2 14%
14%
R1a1 13%
13%
T 13%
See explanation 1
E1b 10%
See explanation 2
R2 8%
8%
J1 6%
See explanation 3
Q 6%
See explanation 4
R1b 5%
See explanation 5
H 4%
See explanation 6
G 2%
2%
F 1%
See explanation 7
C 1%
1%
D 1%
See explanation 2
Explanation 1: Nasidze tested for, among other haplogroups, M9(K*), M45(P*), M173(R1*), M124(R2), and M17(R1a1). M9 can indicate any of the following haplogroups: K, L M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, and T. Since haplogroups P, Q, and R were tested for through M45, M173, M124, and M17, we can exclude them from consideration as we attempt to gain finer haplogroup resolution for M9. We are left with, as possibilities for the Nasidze frequency for M9 (K*) of ~13%, the following haplogroups: K, L, M, N, O, S, and T.
The frequencies of K, L, M, N, O, S and T for some relevant neighboring populations:
Assyrian: 0%, 0%, 0%, 2%, 0%, 0%, 12%
Armenian: 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 5%
Turkish: 0%, 3%, 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 1%
Iranian: 0%, 5%, 0%, 2%, 1%, 0%, 3%
Iraqi: 1%, 1%, 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 6%
I placed the most significance, obviously, on haplogroup T, given that it was the only haplogroup to be observed in each of the populations, that Kurmanji and Assyrians inhabited the same general territory for centuries, and that the other haplogroups, at least relatively speaking, were generally negligible. If you wish for a more evenly distributed frequency, it would look as follows:
Humanist
I 16%
J2 14%
R1a1 13%
T 8%
E1b 10%
R2 8%
J1 6%
Q 6%
R1b 5%
H 4%
L 3%
N 2%
G 2%
F 1%
C 1%
D 1%
I was planning on explaining how I arrived at each, but to be honest, this is taking way longer than I expected. Between gathering all of my haplogroup frequencies and attempting to explain the resolution/reconciliation issues. I will try and complete the rest at a later time. Hopefully this gives you some idea.
Humanist
Nasidze
I 16%
16%
J2 14%
14%
R1a1 13%
13%
T 13%
See explanation 1
E1b 10%
See explanation 2
R2 8%
8%
J1 6%
See explanation 3
Q 6%
See explanation 4
R1b 5%
See explanation 5
H 4%
See explanation 6
G 2%
2%
F 1%
See explanation 7
C 1%
1%
D 1%
See explanation 2
Explanation 1: Nasidze tested for, among other haplogroups, M9(K*), M45(P*), M173(R1*), M124(R2), and M17(R1a1). M9 can indicate any of the following haplogroups: K, L M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, and T. Since haplogroups P, Q, and R were tested for through M45, M173, M124, and M17, we can exclude them from consideration as we attempt to gain finer haplogroup resolution for M9. We are left with, as possibilities for the Nasidze frequency for M9 (K*) of ~13%, the following haplogroups: K, L, M, N, O, S, and T.
The frequencies of K, L, M, N, O, S and T for some relevant neighboring populations:
Assyrian: 0%, 0%, 0%, 2%, 0%, 0%, 12%
Armenian: 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 5%
Turkish: 0%, 3%, 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 1%
Iranian: 0%, 5%, 0%, 2%, 1%, 0%, 3%
Iraqi: 1%, 1%, 0%, 1%, 0%, 0%, 6%
I placed the most significance, obviously, on haplogroup T, given that it was the only haplogroup to be observed in each of the populations, that Kurmanji and Assyrians inhabited the same general territory for centuries, and that the other haplogroups, at least relatively speaking, were generally negligible. If you wish for a more evenly distributed frequency, it would look as follows:
Humanist
I 16%
J2 14%
R1a1 13%
T 8%
E1b 10%
R2 8%
J1 6%
Q 6%
R1b 5%
H 4%
L 3%
N 2%
G 2%
F 1%
C 1%
D 1%
I was planning on explaining how I arrived at each, but to be honest, this is taking way longer than I expected. Between gathering all of my haplogroup frequencies and attempting to explain the resolution/reconciliation issues. I will try and complete the rest at a later time. Hopefully this gives you some idea.
good now i understand how you get 3% L but how you came to 6% J1? Did you get this from Haplogroup F*? but i dn´t think that almost 6% of F*(11,5%) is J1
Humanist
2010-08-02, 05:24
How do you propose we allocate the ~11%? We have three options. Haplogroups F, H, and J1. These are the haplogroups F, H, and J1 frequencies respectively, for a number of other relevant populations:
F, H, J1
Saudi 0% 2% 40%
Emirati 4% 4% 35%
Yemeni 0% 0% 73%
Somali 0% 1% 3%
Egyptian 0% 0% 19%
Jordanian 1% 0% 31%
Assyrian 2% 0% 16%
Maronite 0% 0% 18%
Armenian 1% 0% 13%
Turkish 0% 0% 11%
Iranian 1% 2% 11%
Iraqi 0% 0% 31%
Qatari 0% 1% 58%
Omani 0% 2% 38%
Syrian 0% 0% 34%
Rhodesli 0% 0% 18%
IndianReg 0% 11% 2%
Greek 0% 0% 4%
Georgian 0% 0% 5%
Leb.Druze 0% 0% 19%
Leb.Sunni 0% 0% 25%
Leb.Shia 0% 0% 30%
Ashkenazi 1% 0% 19%
Pal.(Acre) 12% 0% 40%
Cypriot 0% 1% 11%
Calab_Sic 0% 0% 3%
St. Thomas 0% 9% 0%
I have the Kurmanji as F=1%, H=4%, and J1=6%
I allocated 4% to haplogroup H because of what in my opinion is an apparent Y-DNA affinity with the Indian and St. Thomas Christian populations.
India St.Thomas Kurmanji(T)
H 11% 9% ?
R1a1 33% 25% 13%
R2 10% 11% 8%
J2 13% 25% 14%
J1 2% 0% ?
Haplogroup F is negligible. Turkish J1 is 11%. Assyrian J1 is 16%. Armenian J1 is 13%. Iranian 11%. Iraqi 31%.
R2 in Turkey is 1%. Iran 1%. Iraq 0%. Armenia 3%. Assyrians 4%. The Kurmanji are 2x the next greatest R2 frequency.
R1a1, at rates similar to the Kurmanji are only observed in the Iranian and Turkish population. The Iranians and Turks, however, as I just stated above, have extremely low levels of R2.
The Kurmanji have some Y-DNA tendency toward the Indian populations. That is why I allocated 4% to H and left a modest amount of J1 to account for the fact that the Kurmanji have inhabited a general region home to the highest concentrations of J1 in the world for many centuries.
Perhaps some mechanism of change, such as genetic drift or gene flow is at play here. I do not know. It is a possibility.
T-Dominator
2010-08-02, 11:13
Ah Understand Many Haplgroups among Kurds means that we are mixed people but even more Haplogroups among Turks just show the diversity. Go on it is funny to see how you make a jackass on your self:D
I mean you are mixed and considerable as "originless". Turks are mixed, Greeks are mixed, Russians are mixed and so on...
We know Turkic, Greek, Russian origin etc. but you can't tell "Kurdish" origin without delirium...
How do you propose we allocate the ~11%? We have three options. Haplogroups F, H, and J1. These are the haplogroups F, H, and J1 frequencies respectively, for a number of other relevant populations:
F, H, J1
Saudi 0% 2% 40%
Emirati 4% 4% 35%
Yemeni 0% 0% 73%
Somali 0% 1% 3%
Egyptian 0% 0% 19%
Jordanian 1% 0% 31%
Assyrian 2% 0% 16%
Maronite 0% 0% 18%
Armenian 1% 0% 13%
Turkish 0% 0% 11%
Iranian 1% 2% 11%
Iraqi 0% 0% 31%
Qatari 0% 1% 58%
Omani 0% 2% 38%
Syrian 0% 0% 34%
Rhodesli 0% 0% 18%
IndianReg 0% 11% 2%
Greek 0% 0% 4%
Georgian 0% 0% 5%
Leb.Druze 0% 0% 19%
Leb.Sunni 0% 0% 25%
Leb.Shia 0% 0% 30%
Ashkenazi 1% 0% 19%
Pal.(Acre) 12% 0% 40%
Cypriot 0% 1% 11%
Calab_Sic 0% 0% 3%
St. Thomas 0% 9% 0%
I have the Kurmanji as F=1%, H=4%, and J1=6%
I allocated 4% to haplogroup H because of what in my opinion is an apparent Y-DNA affinity with the Indian and St. Thomas Christian populations.
India St.Thomas Kurmanji(T)
H 11% 9% ?
R1a1 33% 25% 13%
R2 10% 11% 8%
J2 13% 25% 14%
J1 2% 0% ?
Haplogroup F is negligible. Turkish J1 is 11%. Assyrian J1 is 16%. Armenian J1 is 13%. Iranian 11%. Iraqi 31%.
R2 in Turkey is 1%. Iran 1%. Iraq 0%. Armenia 3%. Assyrians 4%. The Kurmanji are 2x the next greatest R2 frequency.
R1a1, at rates similar to the Kurmanji are only observed in the Iranian and Turkish population. The Iranians and Turks, however, as I just stated above, have extremely low levels of R2.
The Kurmanji have some Y-DNA tendency toward the Indian populations. That is why I allocated 4% to H and left a modest amount of J1 to account for the fact that the Kurmanji have inhabited a general region home to the highest concentrations of J1 in the world for many centuries.
Perhaps some mechanism of change, such as genetic drift or gene flow is at play here. I do not know. It is a possibility.
F could also be G, I, J2 and T just because this halplogroups were also analyced it doesen´t mean F must be a new Haplogroup. Ana also i thought they didn´t found J1 among Armenians i never found a study which shows that. And other studies about Kurds from T show 0-3% J1 It is possible that we have J1 but it is also possible that F is something else so we let it till new studies come out.
Humanist
2010-08-02, 14:13
F could also be G, I, J2 and T just because this halplogroups were also analyced it doesen´t mean F must be a new Haplogroup. Ana also i thought they didn´t found J1 among Armenians i never found a study which shows that. And other studies about Kurds from T show 0-3% J1 It is possible that we have J1 but it is also possible that F is something else so we let it till new studies come out.
According to this particular study, it can be none of G, I, J2, and T, because M201, M170, M172, and M9 respectively, were typed by Nasidze.
I would put the Armenian data I use against ANY scientific study's reported frequencies. The Armenian figures are as of the the most recently reported frequencies through the project's site. It is, arguably, the most efficient, and successful project at FTDNA.
According to this particular study, it can be none of G, I, J2, and T, because M201, M170, M172, and M9 respectively, were typed by Nasidze.
I would put the Armenian data I use against ANY scientific study's reported frequencies. The Armenian figures are as of the the most recently reported frequencies through the project's site. It is, arguably, the most efficient, and successful project at FTDNA.
J2 for example could be a other typ than M172 like M410 is also possible If it was Clearly J1 so they would have noticed it´s not like they didn´t expect to find J1 among Kurmanci T so they just made it together to Haplogroup F. But all in one it looks like Kurds are definitly typical Northern Middle East People.
Humanist
2010-08-02, 14:35
J2 for example could be a other typ than M172 like M410 is also possible
Yes, J2 could have been J2a, had it been typed for. But that was not what you were just suggesting! You were going in completely the opposite direction.
IstenmeyenTuy
2010-08-02, 22:34
isnt F indian? its in india I think
isnt F indian? its in india I think
F is something like a motherhaplogroup its Descendants are G, H, I , J, K and so on. Thats why we aren´t sure if it is J1, H it could be everything also L M NOP is possible.
---------- Post added 2010-08-02 at 23:45 ----------
Humanist could you make a affinitie of all Kurds from Turkey to other Nations? it would be nice to see it.
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