Horn African Y DNA/mtDNA (split) //mod

[Aware_Dog]

I really wish some of the studies I posted back at HBF/AF were still in existence, because I posted a lot of good Y & mtDNA studies that gave good profiles of various Ethiopian groups.

What are you talking about? I believe I have saved everything. P.M/ Email me if you need some or all of those papers retrieved.

There have only been 5 papers that reported the YDNA frequencies in Ethiopia that screened from the root level of the Y-DNA phylogeny (that is not counting the Wood et. al 2005 paper) .The Cruciani papers only reported results from the E1b1b level and downstream, so we can't use them for full screening. Those 5 papers combined reported 459 samples, that is if we use the numbers from your correspondence with Moran et. al 2004 to split the data between Semitic speakers and Cushitic speakers, but if we don't use that particular correspondence and just use the raw data in that paper, it would make the total sampled 495, we would however loose the added benefit of separating more data between Cushitic and Semitic speakers.

So for the 459 sampled from those 5 papers, 32% were Semitic speakers (Really mostly Amharas), 41% Cushitic speakers (Really almost all Oromo), 9% Bete Isreal and 19% unspecified (probably just "mixed") Ethiopians. While the The Bete Israel have a rather dissimilar profile, the differences in average frequencies of the YDNA haplogroups between Semitic and Cushitic Speakers so far sampled from Ethiopia are rather negligible really (see attached).

Differences in Average haplogroup frequencies between Semitic ---> Cushitic Speakers:


J1-M267 +3.79%
J2 +2.64%
A3b2 +2.45%
T +1.74%
B*/B2a +1.51%
F*(x J,T) +0.68%
E-M123 +0.66%

E-PN2* -0.10%
E* -0.39%
E2 -1.08%
E-M281 -1.09%
E-M215/M35 * -2.03%
E-M78 -8.78%

The mtDNA data also shows very similar frequency distribution between Semitic and Cushitic speakers, but we really only have one paper to go off for that, Kivsild et.al 2004.

[Lol_Race]

Too bad there have only been 39 Beta Israel samples in total. But the results are interesting.

I speculated earlier that the Beta Israel could have undergone a bottleneck due to their religion, which could be the reason why there were no signs of a relationship between the formerly Agew-speaking Beta Israel and Amharas in the Behar et al. study. The (Y-DNA) differences between the Beta Israel and other Ethiopian populations seems to support this.

[Ezana]

What are you talking about? I believe I have saved everything. P.M/ Email me if you need some or all of those papers retrieved.

Awesome, good to know someone's saving them.




There have only been 5 papers that reported the YDNA frequencies in Ethiopia that screened from the root level of the Y-DNA phylogeny (that is not counting the Wood et. al 2005 paper) .The Cruciani papers only reported results from the E1b1b level and downstream, so we can't use them for full screening. Those 5 papers combined reported 459 samples, that is if we use the numbers from your correspondence with Moran et. al 2004 to split the data between Semitic speakers and Cushitic speakers, but if we don't use that particular correspondence and just use the raw data in that paper, it would make the total sampled 495, we would however loose the added benefit of separating more data between Cushitic and Semitic speakers.

I completely forgot about that. It was actually with the second author (to whom Moran forwarded my email), Dr. Robert Scott.

I checked my email account and found the raw data he sent me, in case you want it. It has some missing data points, though.


So for the 459 sampled from those 5 papers, 32% were Semitic speakers (Really mostly Amharas), 41% Cushitic speakers (Really almost all Oromo), 9% Bete Isreal and 19% unspecified (probably just "mixed") Ethiopians. While the The Bete Israel have a rather dissimilar profile, the differences in average frequencies of the YDNA haplogroups between Semitic and Cushitic Speakers so far sampled from Ethiopia are rather negligible really (see attached).

How did you get the 146 Semitic speakers and 186 Cushitic speakers? Underhill et al. 2000 has 88 Ethiopians, but he doesn't specify ethnic groups (though I think Cruciani knows), those are the 88 unspecified, right?

The same goes for Moran et al. 2004 (re: ethnic groups), which speaks of 111 Semitic speakers and 119 Cushitic speakers, but doesn't give a genetic profile divided by language in the paper. Did you use the partially complete (just a few bad data points) set I got from Dr. Scott? I count 220 samples, of which 110 are Cushitic, 101 are Semitic, and 9 are "Other" (Omotic).

So is it 48 Amharas (Semino 2002) + 98 good data points from Moran, and 78 Oromos (Semino 2002) + 108 good data points from Moran? That might explain the similarities in the J1-M267 frequencies, as the Oromos from that sample came from a political demonstration and therefore urban Oromos who might also have some Amhara ancestry.




The mtDNA data also shows very similar frequency distribution between Semitic and Cushitic speakers, but we really only have one paper to go off for that, Kivsild et.al 2004.

I recall having more mtDNA data (albeit crude) from some early studies (possibly also on runners?) that I posted back at HBF. Do you still have it?

[Aware_Dog]

I completely forgot about that. It was actually with the second author (to whom Moran forwarded my email), Dr. Robert Scott.

I checked my email account and found the raw data he sent me, in case you want it. It has some missing data points, though.
I doubt I need the raw data, unless you made a typo or something when you reported the correspondence results, which I don't think there would be a lot of error since it is actually quite consistent with the frequency distributions if we take the whole paper into account.



How did you get the 146 Semitic speakers and 186 Cushitic speakers? Underhill et al. 2000 has 88 Ethiopians, but he doesn't specify ethnic groups (though I think Cruciani knows), those are the 88 unspecified, right?
Correct. The "unspecified Ethiopians" (88) are wholly from Underhill et. al 2000.
The split between the Semitic Speakers (146) and Cushitic Speakers (186) comes from your correspondence with Dr. Robert Scott (good data points only) and the Amhara and Oromo data from Semino et. al 2002, see below for further clarification.


The same goes for Moran et al. 2004 (re: ethnic groups), which speaks of 111 Semitic speakers and 119 Cushitic speakers, but doesn't give a genetic profile divided by language in the paper. Did you use the partially complete (just a few bad data points) set I got from Dr. Scott? I count 220 samples, of which 110 are Cushitic, 101 are Semitic, and 9 are "Other" (Omotic).

So is it 48 Amharas (Semino 2002) + 98 good data points from Moran, and 78 Oromos (Semino 2002) + 108 good data points from Moran? That might explain the similarities in the J1-M267 frequencies, as the Oromos from that sample came from a political demonstration and therefore urban Oromos who might also have some Amhara ancestry.

The part in bold, is exactly where I got the data for the 186 Cushitic speakers and the 146 Semitic speakers.

Moran et. al 2004 in total sampled 242 males as follows:General control (95), Arsi Control (85), 5-10K (23), Marathon (21) and Track & Field (18). Your Correspondence however yielded a total of 206 samples, therefore 36 samples have been discarded in favor of retaining the linguistic associations that your correspondence yielded. Those 36 samples do not significantly change the out come of the break down of the data as a whole though (if you want I can go in further detail on this)

As for Urban oromos versus rural ones I'm not sure if that makes a huge difference, we will not know until we get more data. If you however take a look at the Interpolated J1e (the predominant J subclade in Ethiopia) frequency spatial distribution from Jacques Chiaroni et. al 2009 (attached) you can see that the region of Arsi would roughly correlate with about 15-25% of J1e, consistent with the Moran et. al data, off course this is just rough since it is an interpolation, but it is all the data we have for now.


I recall having more mtDNA data (albeit crude) from some early studies (possibly also on runners?) that I posted back at HBF. Do you still have it?

I'll have to dig into this a little deeper and let you know later on, I have something come up right now I can't get to it.

Edit: also like I said before Wood et. al 2005 is not included in my collation of the Ethiopian data, there is an additional 47 samples in there we can use.......

[Ezana]

I doubt I need the raw data, unless you made a typo or something when you reported the correspondence results, which I don't think there would be a lot of error since it is actually quite consistent with the frequency distributions if we take the whole paper into account.

Correct. The "unspecified Ethiopians" (88) are wholly from Underhill et. al 2000.
The split between the Semitic Speakers (146) and Cushitic Speakers (186) comes from your correspondence with Dr. Robert Scott (good data points only) and the Amhara and Oromo data from Semino et. al 2002, see below for further clarification.

The part in bold, is exactly where I got the data for the 186 Cushitic speakers and the 146 Semitic speakers.

Moran et. al 2004 in total sampled 242 males as follows:General control (95), Arsi Control (85), 5-10K (23), Marathon (21) and Track & Field (18). Your Correspondence however yielded a total of 206 samples, therefore 36 samples have been discarded in favor of retaining the linguistic associations that your correspondence yielded. Those 36 samples do not significantly change the out come of the break down of the data as a whole though (if you want I can go in further detail on this)

I'm attaching the raw data to this post anyway. There were 109/111 good Cushitic data points that I can find (I can't seem to find a third bad sample), while there were 98/101 good Semitic data points, including a single "F1,F*" individual. That Hg wasn't shown in the table data, which I asked Dr. Scott about. He sent the concerns to the author primarily dealing with the data, but I never got a response beyond that (so that author must not have responded to Dr. Scott). Here's the correspondence:


Thank you very much for this data. I do have a few questions regarding a some of the data points. A few times, the haplogroup "$*$DE" comes up, and I can't decipher it (DE* seems very unlikely to me). A single example of "$*$ABC" also occurs, which would seem to imply that there are missing data points. E3bx also shows up a number of times, which I assume is E3b*(xE3b1,xE3b2,xE3b3). There's also one "ex," which I think is E* (or rather E*(xM75,xM33,xP2)), is this correct. Another says "F1,F*," but there are no reported members of haplogroup F in the actual article. Finally, there's a single instance of "A3a, A3b1," which doesn't make sense to me, and an "A3b3," which I believe is likely a typo for "A3b2" (all other Ethiopian members of haplogroup A found have been members of this subclade).

I also wanted to know if you could mark which individuals were placed in which group (general control, Arsi control, 5-10k, Marathon, or track runner). It's not clear from the data set. Thank you once again for all your help and work on the data.



As for Urban oromos versus rural ones I'm not sure if that makes a huge difference, we will not know until we get more data. If you however take a look at the Interpolated J1e (the predominant J subclade in Ethiopia) frequency spatial distribution from Jacques Chiaroni et. al 2009 (attached) you can see that the region of Arsi would roughly correlate with about 15-25% of J1e, consistent with the Moran et. al data, off course this is just rough since it is an interpolation, but it is all the data we have for now.

The suggestion (not wrt Hg J, but in general) was made in Moran et al.:


Population stratification (with particular reference
to Arsi)

Y chromosome haplogroup distributions are known to show particularly strong responses to population structuring (e.g. Previdere´ et al. 1999) and a demographic study of these athletes has shown that the majority of these athletes come from the regions of Arsi and Shewa and speak languages of Cushitic origin (Scott et al. 2003). However, neither their POB nor spoken language family exhibit any association with Y chromosome haplogroup distribution. The observed associations cannot therefore be readily explained by regional or cultural affiliation. Moreover, a control population from Arsi has been examined in addition to the general Ethiopian controls. If there were something special about the genetics of the Arsi population that predisposes them to endurance athletics, it would have been expected (1) that the two control groups would be significantly different from each other, and (2) that the endurance athletes would be statistically different from the general Ethiopian controls but very similar to the Arsi controls. However, no difference has been found between the control groups and more differences have been observed between the athletes and the Arsi controls than between the athletes and the general Ethiopian controls. This raises the question as to whether the Arsi control population is truly representative of Arsi. For instance, the Arsi DNA samples were taken at a human rights rally in a town within the region, but perhaps the Arsi athletes came from a different socioeconomic, possibly agricultural, background and from a population with a different historical and ethnic origin. This would leave open the possibility that there is a sorting effect whereby a particular haplogroup is indicative of an Ethiopian subpopulation (e.g. an ethnic, religious or social group) that contains high levels of a variant in an unknown gene that can directly influence athletic performance. We suggest that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, our results show that there are differences between the athlete groups and the control populations and that these may be the result of predisposing Y-linked variants.




I'll have to dig into this a little deeper and let you know later on, I have something come up right now I can't get to it.

Edit: also like I said before Wood et. al 2005 is not included in my collation of the Ethiopian data, there is an additional 47 samples in there we can use.......

Nice find. The division into Amhara, Oromo, and South Semitic (i.e. South Ethiosemitic xAmhara, since Amharic is South Ethiosemitic, possibly Gurage groups) could be useful, but it's a bit hard to decipher.


He gives longitudes and latitudes for the sample sites, but they don't match up very well. 10N 39E for Amharas is around Debre Birhan (a good site to sample), while 12N 38E for "South Semitic" is near Debre Tabor (another good site for Amharas). Maybe the two were mixed up, and the 10N 39E site was sampling Argobbas? The 6N 39E Oromo sample is around Kibre Negest in S. Ethiopia.

The map shows the South Semitic group still around central Ethiopia, though, which is a puzzle.


Actually, looking at the supplementary data, "South Semitic" is replaced by "Mixed Semitic," so maybe it included Tigrinya speakers living in Debre Tabor? Or maybe it was a mix of Amharas and Argobbas from Debre Birhan (around where it is on the map)? Who knows...

16314

In any case, the 3/9 Oromos with Hg J-12f2 is closer to Moran's data than Semino's.

[Aware_Dog]

Hey Ezana, I found that mtDNA paper on Ethiopian runners. It is Scott et. al 2004 (attached) most probably the same Dr. Robert Scott that you were corresponding with.
And also, thanks for looking into the Wood et. al 2005 paper, I have been meaning to incorporate it with the other papers, but haven't done so yet. As to your response, I will respond in better depth tomorrow after I review the raw data you attached and look into the Wood. et al 2005 paper a bit more.
On another note, here are other possible leads on more uniparental marker data from the horn :
1) The new paper from Cruciani entitled "Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan
connections and the spread of Chadic languages" they sampled the following populations from the East Africa with some pretty healthy sample sizes:

Cunama Eritrea NS/Cunama 20
Nara Eritrea NS/Sudanic 15
Tigrai Eritrea AA/Semitic 28
Tigre Eritrea AA/Semitic 5
Afar Djibuti Djibuti AA/Cushitic 25
Somali Djibuti Djibuti AA/Cushitic 40
Somali Somalia Somalia AA/Cushitic 23
Tigrai Ethiopia AA/Semitic 5
Amhara Ethiopia AA/Semitic 83
Gurage Ethiopia AA/Semitic 7
Ethiopian Jews Ethiopia AA/Cushitic 22
Oromo Ethiopia AA/Cushitic 62
Wolayta Ethiopia AA/Omotic 12
Borana Kenya AA/Cushitic 8
Nilotic Kenya NS/Sudanic 18
Kikuyu Kenya NC/Bantu 8
Luhya Kenya NC/Bantu 7
Other Bantud Kenya NC/Bantu 11


^ but they unfortunately only reported either only R clades in the main paper or in the supplementary file, results for only a very few of the populations. It would be a great candidate for some correspondence with the Author.

2) And the other paper is that new Behar et. al 2010 study on Jews, they have some YDNA and mtDNA data included for the Ethiopian samples.

[Ezana]

Nice. Care to make the first step in emailing Cruciani? He's probably rather busy, but it couldn't hurt.

Also, could you post the Cruciani study? My institution apparently doesn't provide access.

[Aware_Dog]

I'm attaching the raw data to this post anyway. There were 109/111 good Cushitic data points that I can find (I can't seem to find a third bad sample),
Actually it is 108/110, the cushitic data points count that you have in the raw data is 110 not 111. The bad data points are in cells B26 and B189. This 108 number is consistent with your initial post on HBF (or was it AF? whichever that old forum was).


while there were 98/101 good Semitic data points, including a single "F1,F*" individual. That Hg wasn't shown in the table data, which I asked Dr. Scott about. He sent the concerns to the author primarily dealing with the data, but I never got a response beyond that (so that author must not have responded to Dr. Scott). Here's the correspondence:

True, i had seen that F* was not reported in the original paper, I was thinking about taking it out as a bad data point. This whole raw data that you posted is not fully representative of the paper though, because while the paper sampled had in total 242 people the raw data had 220 (110 Cushitic, 101 Semitic and 9 other), so off the bat there were some data points missing in the raw data that were included in the main paper (22 of them). It's all good though.


Nice. Care to make the first step in emailing Cruciani? He's probably rather busy, but it couldn't hurt.

Also, could you post the Cruciani study? My institution apparently doesn't provide access.

See attached for the study and I will initiate the correspondence with Cruciani and see if I get lucky.

[beyoku]

Good luck with that. I am still waiting for Cruciani et al 2008 paper:

Phylogeography of the human Y chromosome haplogroup E3a

[Aware_Dog]

Thanks for the splitting the thread.

Here is an update for the YDNA comparison chart when Wood et. al 2005 (Amhara (18), Oromo (9), Mixed Semitic (20)) and Behar et. al 2010 (Beta Israel (5)) are added.

[Ezana]

I've moved Awall's and subsequent posts to a new thread here: https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=8051

[EliasAlucard]

Moved to Haplogroups section.

//mod

[EliasAlucard]

Off Topic deleted, thread is about Horner haplogroups, and the thread is in the Haplogroup section, which means the focus of the discussion is about haplogroups.

//mod

[kimsmarkin]

En suggested earlier that the Beta Israel could be the bottleneck, because of their religion, which might be why there was no evidence of previous reports Beta Agew talking about Israel and Amharas in Behar et al. research.

[Aware_Dog]

Slightly over half of the mtDNA lineages in Ethiopia are some kind of a variety of L; namely L3, L2, L0 and L4 almost all of which has great, if not the greatest, antiquity in East Africa.

The other half belong to the 2 phylogentically identified "daughter" clades of L3: M (namely M1) and N (namely R0, U and N1).

(I) M is thought by some to be so ancient in the horn that it could be associated with those who spawned the OOA migrations, regarding this T. Kivisild et. al 2003 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/) note:

All non-Africans, including Indian populations, have inherited a subset of African mtDNA haplogroup L3 lineages, differentiated into groups M and N. Although the frequency of haplogroup M and its diversity are highest in India (Majumder 2001; Edwin et al. 2002), there is no phylogenetic evidence yet from the mtDNA coding region demonstrating that its presence in Africa is due to a back migration. Also, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general (Ingman et al. 2000; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Kivisild et al. 2002) suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the horn of Africa (i.e., the southern route migration [Nei and Roychoudhury 1993; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Stringer 2000]).

(II) The other "daughter" clade of L3, i.e. the N family, account for ~30% of the mtDNA found in Ethiopia, of which R0,U and N1 are the most prevalent and account for ~2/3 of that family. The Migration routes of these member lineages of the N family are quite complex between SouthWestern Asia and NorthEastern Africa.

[Ezana]

Nice graph, but M1 in North and East Africa's been estimated to be 20kya, so it's probably not associated with OOA. I'm curious to see what future studies show regarding R0a (formerly (pre-HV)1) and its presence in Africa. In Kivisild et al. 2004, IIRC, it was dated to 14-20kya.

[Aware_Dog]

Nice graph, but M1 in North and East Africa's been estimated to be 20kya, so it's probably not associated with OOA.
Do you have the paper for this? As far as I understand, its non-association with the OOA event/s is a possibility and not a probability, and Kivisild et. al 2004 estimated the Coalescent time of M1 in Ethiopia at 41.2KYA with a Standard Error of 17KYA. In addition to the quote above from a previous paper (2003), in the 2004 paper, they also note it as a possibility:

The ancestral status of Moroccan complete sequences at mtDNA coding-region sites that define the major clades present in Ethiopians, however, leaves open the possibility that M1 had originated in North Africa or the Near East instead and was imported to Ethiopia in the remote past, early enough to allow the rise of subclades frequent in and specific to the Horn of Africa.


I'm curious to see what future studies show regarding R0a (formerly (pre-HV)1) and its presence in Africa. In Kivisild et al. 2004, IIRC, it was dated to 14-20kya.
Yeah, it was dated to 14.4KYA with a Standard Error of 5.3KYA.

[Ezana]

Do you have the paper for this? As far as I understand, its non-association with the OOA event/s is a possibility and not a probability, and Kivisild et. al 2004 estimated the Coalescent time of M1 in Ethiopia at 41.2KYA with a Standard Error of 17KYA. In addition to the quote above from a previous paper (2003), in the 2004 paper, they also note it as a possibility:

NOTE: I've fixed the nomenclature below according to Gonzales (not Olivieri). Two studies came out with different nomenclatures that got mixed up a bit in my memory.


Somewhere, I don't remember the name. It was on M1 and its subclades. IIRC, M1b was relatively recent, present in Sardinia, Italy, and elsewhere in Europe in low numbers, while M1a was the main clade in East Africa (with some M1c?) while M1c was the most common clade in North Africa. The study estimated M1c to be the oldest of the subclades around 20kya and M1a a few thousand years later, but I'm not entirely sure. It's been a year or two since I read it.



Edit: I found one of the studies. This was an earlier one (there's a more recent one that goes more in depth, but I haven't found it yet) by Gonzales, Abu-Amero et al. 2007:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1945034/


Although standard errors overlap, it seems that the northwestern Africa expansion represented by M1c subclade (19,040 ± 4916 years), preceded the M1a eastern Africa expansion (16,756 ± 5997) M1b being the youngest branch (10,155 ± 3590).

The one I'm thinking of may be Olivieri et al. 2007 which is referenced in the above paper as coming out at the same time with different nomenclature, but I don't have access atm. I'll see if I can get proxy access.

My nomenclature differs a bit and fits with Gonzales, so I'll try to get that up soon.

G. = Gonzales, O. = Olivieri.



M1a G. = M1a1 O. = East Afr.

M1b G. = M1a2 O. = Euro

M1c G. = M1b O. = NW Afr.


Cleaned up all the nomenclature to clarify everything.

[beyoku]

^ See also


mtDNAs belonging to haplogroups M and N form 2 monophyletic clades (fig. 2A). These 2 M and N haplogroup clades included a few Tanzanians (belonging to haplogroups M1, M, N1, and J), suggesting possible recent gene flow back into Africa and/or that ancestors of the Tanzanian populations may have been a source of migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions.

Source (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/757.full)

[Ezana]

So, here's the link to Olivieri et al. 2007

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5806/1767

I've attached the study to this post.

Here's a hap tree of M1 using Gonzales' nomenclature:

41572



Gonzales on the nomenclature used by Olivieri:


Whilst this paper was under review, a new paper also dealing with U6 and M1 haplogroups was published [53]. Haplogroup topologies and phylogeographic conclusions proposed by Olivieri et al. [53] are highly coincidental with those proposed by us in our previous paper on U6 [40] and in the present paper, dealing with M1. Regrettably, there are differences in nomenclature for M1. Whereas our M1 phylogeny adhered to that proposed previously by other authors [21], Olivieri et al. [53] chose to apply their own. Nevertheless, the diagnostic positions for the different M1 subhaplogroups allowed us to establish subhaplogroup homologies between the two works. Clearly their M1b subgroup (defined by transition 13111) corresponds to our M1c subgroup; their M1a2 subgroup (defined by transition 15884) corresponds to our M1b subgroup. Finally, their M1a1 subgroup (defined by transitions at 3705, 12346 and 16359) corresponds to our M1a subgroup. In addition to the reinforcing overlap of ideas, it is worthwhile mentioning the high coincidence for the coalescence ages of M1 and the majority of its subhaplogroups, when the same substitution rate [8] is used. Olivieri et al. [53] calculated a coalescence time estimate of 36.8 ± 7.1 ky for the entire haplogroup M1 that matches our estimate of 35.2 ± 7.1 ky. Our coalescence time for M1c (25.7 ± 6.6 ky) also overlaps with Olivieri et al. [53] haplogroup M1b (23.4 ± 5.6 ky). Likewise, the coalescence age calculated for our M1a subhaplogroup (22.6 ± 8.1 ky) is in the range of the Olivieri et al. [53] estimation for their M1a1 subhaplogroup (20.6 ± 3.4 ky). The only discrepancy is about the coalescence time estimate between our M1b subhaplogroup (13.7 ± 4.8 ky) that is younger than that calculated by Olivieri et al. [53] for their homologous M1a2 (24.0 ± 5.7 ky). As our calculations are based only on three lineages and that of Oliveri et al [53] on six, we think that their coalescence time estimation should be more accurate that ours. In fact, when time estimation is based on the eight different lineages (AFR-KI43 is common to both sets) a coalescence age of 20.6 ± 5.0 ky is obtained. Although with overlapping errors, these results, together with the relative ancestral positions of each subgroup in the phylogenetic tree (Fig. ​(Fig.1),1), would suggest that the northwestern M1c clade radiation was older than those for the ubiquitous M1b and the eastern M1a clades, as also proposed by Olivieri et al. [53].


Map of M1 from Olivieri (Dark Green = North Africa, light green = Mediterranean Europe, Orange = Ethiopia, pale yellow = Egypt)

41571



Excerpt from Olivieri, which is attached in full (keep in mind the nomenclature differences).


The M1 tree shows an initial deep split into two sister subclades, M1a and M1b, each containing several independent basal branches, at least seven within M1a and two within M1b (Fig. 2). The M1a branch shows a coalescence time of 28.8 ± 4.9 ky (5.60 ± 0.96 substitutions). The other major branch of the tree, M1b, is also ancient, with an estimated coalescence time of 23.4 ± 5.6 ky (4.55 ± 1.08 substitutions), but in contrast to M1a, which encompasses the entire geographical range of M1, M1b is present only in the Mediterranean area (fig. S1).

[Aware_Dog]

Alright, Thanks for the papers.

[Ezana]

Alright, Thanks for the papers.

I've fixed my first post's nomenclature so it wouldn't be so confusing (and added a table for quick reference).

[Doctoris Scientia]

I found a interesting article that was published a few years ago by a very knowledgeable author (blog) in regard to the subject and the peer-reviewed studies (Gonzalez et al. 2007 for example) mentioned above in particular. It would do some of you guys a favor, and maybe you could even try contact the author as well.

http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/01/response-to-ana-m-gonzalez-et-al-2007.html

Here some points I personally noted.

"The authors of the study at hand, themselves admit that they haven't come across M1 ancestor in either south Asia or southwest Asia. They also take note of its highest diversity in Ethiopia and east Africa. Yet through the shaky premise of their M1c expansion time frame estimations, they build a conclusion around it, by tying it to a dispersal(s) "parallel" to that of U6 - another African marker whose immediate common recent ancestor, namely proto-U6, appears to be elusive thus far."

"So, while they acknowledge the highest "frequencies and diversities" of M1 particularly in Ethiopia, and generally in East Africa [see below for reference], the authors base their claims about ’origins’ on their expansion estimations of M1c derivatives, presumably predominant in northwest Africa rather than east Africa, and its relative sporadic distribution in 'Europe' and 'Southwest' Asia. They attempt to buttress this, by invoking an initial parallel expansion of M1 and U6 "ancestor" lineages into north Africa via the Nile Valley [from "southwest Asia"], then an expansion from northwest Africa this time around, of U6 and M1 derivatives northward into Europe and then eastward into "southwest" Asia via the Nile Valley corridor in the Sinai peninsula, presumably with a few derivatives making their way into sub-Saharan east Africa, where they then underwent some expansion, to give rise to yet another, but later, dispersal from there into "southwest Asia" and hence, accounting for the 'majority' of M1 lineages in "southwest Asia" being east African derivatives than the north African [M1c] counterparts."

"Previous genetic research work made very enthusiastic attempts to correlate the likes of U6 and possible "Eurasian"-tagged mtDNA with R1*-M173, supposedly as an attempt to buttress a possible back-migration into Africa; all but failed, with results showing considerable African mtDNA gene pool instead, for populations bearing these chromosomes."

"Gonzalez et al. (2008) also fall into that trap; guess where they look towards, to make a connection between an M1 dispersal [supposedly parallel to a U6 one] and a "Middle Eastern" origin part of their argument? Interestingly, it happens to be from the same Dead Sea sample which was implicated in a clear genetic link with sub-Saharan and Eastern African groups. This is the same Dead Sea sample set that shared R1*-M173 with northern Cameroonian sample set, other African groups with these markers. This is also the same Dead Sea sample set with African G6PD-A alleles that were rare to absent in neighboring groups. And Gonzalez et al. (2008) tell us, that this is also the same sample set which is again distinguished from those of neighboring group in its higher "south of the Sahara" mtDNA markers:"

"Interesting, because these the same M1c chromosomes being referred to here, and whose specifics have been dealt with. Despite the apparent post-OOA emigration ties between the African groups and the Dead Sea community, reflected in not only both Y-DNA and mtDNA, but also in the X chrosome markers, Gonzalez et al. (2008) still come to the odd conclusion that its presence in the Dead Sea sample set somehow offers some sort of a challenge on the African origin of M1. The notion itself becomes quite comical, when one considers the fact that they just mentioned in the same breath, the presence of these same M1 clusters in Northwestern Africa, which happened to be their alternative hypothetical point of origin [Gonzalez et al. (2007)], as already noted. As they themselves acknowledge, that's where (northwestern Africa) said M1 clusters are widely distributed, and rather rare in the so-called "Middle East", save for this genetically "anamolous" [the authors' own words] and relatively isolated Dead Sea community, notable for its clear "past ties to sub-Saharan and eastern Africa", to put in Flores et al.'s (2005) words, a team that Gonzalez herself was a part of. "Anamolous", because to put it in the authors' own words, the considerably high post-OOA African ties of the Dead Sea sample dataset sets it appart from many other "Middle Eastern" groups, including its neighbors."

"The anomalous evolution of M1a2 lineages left the coalescence ages of the eastern Africa M1a expansion uncertain, but as suggested for the sister U6a1 radiation; these movements could be correlated in time with an African origin and expansion of Afroasiatic languages."

"The studies the present author posted, suggest that the basal motifs characteristic of the M macrohaplogroup arose in Africa, anywhere between 60 - 80 ky ago [since they would have likely been in the continent by the time of the 60 ky ago or so OOA migrations] . Sometime between 60 ky and 50 ky ago [some sources place it between 75 - 60 ky ago], these L3 offshoots were carried outside of Africa, amongst early successful a.m.h migrations, which resulted in the populations now living in the Indian-subcontinent, Melanesia and Australia who have these lineages. Not all the basal African L3M lineages, as Semino et al. convincingly put it, left the continent, as indicated by the basal L3a-M motif detected in Senegal, M1 diversity in Africa, particularly East Africa, possibly the dectection of M1 and other M lineages in tandem within a Tanzanian sample (Gonder et al. 2006), and the apparent lack of descendancy of M1 from older-coalescent Asian macrohaplogroup. Rather, it appears that the basal L3M lineages which remained in Africa, underwent a relatively limited demographic intra-African expansion until relatively recently, i.e. between 10 - 30 ky ago, compared to the Asian L3M derivatives, which underwent major expansions, naturally within the quantitatively smaller founder immigrant groups, i.e. the founder effect."

"M1 is likely the culmination of relatively more recent demographic expansions of basal L3M lineages in the African continent, with M1 derivative being a successful candidate, in what could have possibly involved other derivatives which might not have expanded to the same level intra-continentally, and subsequently, extra-continentally as well.

M1 has strongly been correlated with the upper Paleolithic expansion of proto-Afrasan groups across the Sahara to coastal north Africa, and further eastward via the Sinai peninsula."

others posts

http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/05/ati-one-stop-referential-page-for-notes.html
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2009/03/working-hypothesis-around-haplogroups.html
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/07/u6-standalone-clade.html
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/01/following-trails-of-cro-magnon-i.html
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/01/following-trails-of-cro-magnon-ii.html#links

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 08:35 ----------

"The "Near Eastern" section of the Great Rift Valley 1) has no upstream markers of either M1, L3, or even that of the Asian M macrohaplogroup; rather, this region has only downstream derivatives of these markers. 2) The ancestor of M1 has not been located in either south Asia [which is essentially home to the Asian M family] or the "Near East". 3) However, the lineages necessary to give rise to M1 are all present in Africa, as exemplified by the 10873C [emphasis added] marker [Semino et al.] at the RFLP position 10873, which transcends M macrohaplogroup, having been identified amongst L1, L2 and L3 clades; on the other hand, all non-African non-M clades, which are all essentially ultimately derivatives of the African L3 superclade, have 10873T [with emphasis]. This suggests that African M1 and the Asian M macro-haplogroup derive from an earlier bifurcation event that took place in Africa, which transcended L3. Furthermore, "middle-of-the-road" evolutionary clade of L3a, descendant of L3 but older than other M-designated L3 lineages and found in a Senegalese sample, adds to this theme of Africa having all the necessary markers to give rise to M1. That the authors propose two origin theories, is further testament to the fragile nature of their theory."

[Ezana]

The off-topic posts were moved here in the general African genetics section: http://forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=11831

Let's keep this thread for specific discussion of haplogroup frequencies, coalescent times, etc. as they relate to particular Horn African populations.


I found a interesting article that was published a few years ago by a very knowledgeable author (blog) in regard to the subject and the peer-reviewed studies (Gonzalez et al. 2007 for example) mentioned above in particular. It would do some of you guys a favor, and maybe you could even try contact the author as well.


Ah, good ole Supercar from Egyptsearch. He's got some knowledge and points out many Eurocentric fallacies and biases, but he can hold some misguided delusions of his own (e.g. R1b in Africa could have originated there after a back-migration and then spread elsewhere or have derived separately from R1 in Asia, which is highly unlikely to say the least).

[Doctoris Scientia]

Ah, good ole Supercar from Egyptsearch. He's got some knowledge and points out many Eurocentric fallacies and biases, but he can hold some misguided delusions of his own (e.g. R1b in Africa could have originated there after a back-migration and then spread elsewhere or have derived separately from R1 in Asia, which is highly unlikely to say the least).

What theory do you support if I may ask? In regard to R1b.

And do you agree or disagree with his above argument? And why?

[Bandar Qasim]

Somali y-DNA Haplogroup Distribution from 3 different studies. I'm not completely sure if those from Immel are ethnic Somalis, some of them could be coastal Somali Arabs as they deviate from the two other sets.

[Aware_Dog]

Hey thanks there Bandar, do you have any Somali Maternal Lineage graphs too by any chance?

[Bandar Qasim]

Hey thanks there Bandar, do you have any Somali Maternal Lineage graphs too by any chance?

There is this one paper that included many Somali samples recently but I don't have access to it. They found relatively high frequencies of M1, that's the only thing mentioned in the abstract.

''MtDNA variation in North, East, and Central African populations gives clues to a possible back-migration from the Middle East.''

A.D. Holden et al. (2005)

[Aware_Dog]

There is this one paper that included many Somali samples recently but I don't have access to it. They found relatively high frequencies of M1, that's the only thing mentioned in the abstract.

''MtDNA variation in North, East, and Central African populations gives clues to a possible back-migration from the Middle East.''

A.D. Holden et al. (2005)
You may want to Ask or P.M. Ezana, he may have access to it, as I believe he gets access to many papers....

[Sanjub_Saraswati]

Somali y-DNA Haplogroup Distribution from 3 different studies. I'm not completely sure if those from Immel are ethnic Somalis, some of them could be coastal Somali Arabs as they deviate from the two other sets.

Or the samples could be taken from a different region as oppose to the two others. The notion of most Somalis being a homogenous group is the biggest lie of the century.
I certainly don't see kinship when i meet a person who hails from Jowhar or Moqdisho, Baydoa etc., but i always relate myself without knowing at first a person who comes from Bossaso, Galkayo, Las-anod or even Erigavo.
I don't know why you vigourously attempt to maintain the idea of us all somalis being some sort of homogenous, inbred love fest of purity, when we all know that reality ain't that simplistic and one demensional?
Personaly i think in terms of Physiology, Somalis are one of the most heterogenous populations in Africa. This despite some weirdos who try to present themselves as the archetype of this nation. Excel being a prime example.

[Bandar Qasim]

Or the samples could be taken from a different region as oppose to the two others. The notion of most Somalis being a homogenous group is the biggest lie of the century.
I certainly don't see kinship when i meet a person who hails from Jowhar or Moqdisho, Baydoa etc., but i always relate myself without knowing at first a person who comes from Bossaso, Galkayo, Las-anod or even Erigavo.
I don't know why you vigourously attempt to maintain the idea of us all somalis being some sort of homogenous, inbred love fest of purity, when we all know that reality ain't that simplistic and one demensional?
Personaly i think in terms of Physiology, Somalis are one of the most heterogenous populations in Africa. This despite some weirdos who try to present themselves as the archetype of this nation. Excel being a prime example.

Sanchez sampled Somali immigrants in Denmark, Tillmar sampled Somali immigrants in Sweden, and Immel sampled Somali immigrants in Yemen.

I think the first two are more realistic results, due to the larger sample size and more diverse community there. Many Banadiri Arabs fled to Yemen and they could be part of that last study. J1 at 27% but E-M78 only 21% is strange to say the least.

[Sanjub_Saraswati]

Sanchez sampled Somali immigrants in Denmark, Tillmar sampled Somali immigrants in Sweden, and Immel sampled Somali immigrants in Yemen.

I think the first two are more realistic results, due to the larger sample size and more diverse community there. Many Banadiri Arabs fled to Yemen and they could be part of that last study. J1 at 27% but E-M78 only 21% is strange to say the least.
Benadir Somalis in Yemen are nothing in comparison to Ethnic somalis, infact most of Benadir Somalis live in the west in particular the UK.

In Yemen we have almost 1 million Somalis and in Denmark only 15000. You telling me that the probability proportion of the results from these samplings are equall?
Sorry but your theory holds no water whatsoever, your still trying to maintain a false wet-dream of a pure homogenous population..

I however will still keep following my instincts and eyes untill the day a thorough and reliable study is conducted on the whole Somali population.

[Bandar Qasim]

Benadir Somalis in Yemen are nothing in comparison to Ethnic somalis, infact most of Benadir Somalis live in the west in particular the UK.

In Yemen we have almost 1 million Somalis and in Denmark only 15000. You telling me that the probability proportion of the results from these samplings are equall?
Sorry but your theory holds no water whatsoever, your still trying to maintain a false wet-dream of a pure homogenous population..

I however will still keep following my instincts and eyes untill the day a thorough and reliable study is conducted on the whole Somali population.

I got those frequencies from someone on the E3b project. I just looked up the study itself and guess what, they are Somali Arabs. lol, Guess I was right. :lol:

''Y-chromosome STR haplotypes in an Arab population from Somalia''

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JHP-4X5YWXF-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4fb315ff7345dadcd042cedb1a6aa388&searchtype=a

This explains it.

[Sanjub_Saraswati]

I got those frequencies from someone on the E3b project. I just looked up the study itself and guess what, they are Somali Arabs. lol, Guess I was right. :lol:

''Y-chromosome STR haplotypes in an Arab population from Somalia''

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JHP-4X5YWXF-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4fb315ff7345dadcd042cedb1a6aa388&searchtype=a

Whatever. My point still remains.
Untill a country wide genome study is made all these other weak samplings will remain void of credibility.

[Bandar Qasim]

Whatever. My point still remains.
Untill a country wide genome study is made all these other weak samplings will remain void of credibility.

Somalis are just mostly E-M78, give it up man. :|

[Ezana]

You may want to Ask or P.M. Ezana, he may have access to it, as I believe he gets access to many papers....

I don't have access to many papers atm, actually. I haven't activated (or something to that effect) my alumnus account with my university so I only have access to papers that the local university has access to.


I remember there's an early (2002/3? maybe?) study on African mtDNA that includes Somali mtDNA. IIRC, it was about 70-75% L0-3, 10-15% M1 (M, didn't provide subgroup, but likely M1) and the rest N (undifferentiated). Specific lineages were only provided for L haplogroups, though.


Sanchez sampled Somali immigrants in Denmark, Tillmar sampled Somali immigrants in Sweden, and Immel sampled Somali immigrants in Yemen.

I think the first two are more realistic results, due to the larger sample size and more diverse community there. Many Banadiri Arabs fled to Yemen and they could be part of that last study. J1 at 27% but E-M78 only 21% is strange to say the least.

I got those frequencies from someone on the E3b project. I just looked up the study itself and guess what, they are Somali Arabs. lol, Guess I was right. :lol:

''Y-chromosome STR haplotypes in an Arab population from Somalia''

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JHP-4X5YWXF-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4fb315ff7345dadcd042cedb1a6aa388&searchtype=a

This explains it.



Awesome. The more varied samples we have, the better.

[Sanjub_Saraswati]

Somalis are just mostly E-M78, give it up man. :|
Perhaps.
But i still don't think we are all the same through bloods and bones. Atleast when it comes to North-east in relation to southern Somalia.

[Madar]

Perhaps.
But i still don't think we are all the same through bloods and bones. Atleast when it comes to North-east in relation to southern Somalia.

Simple blood test you suffice. :)

Remember, North-east is predominantly same as Bandar E1b1b1 and the highest negroid concentration of horners on the autosomal 23andme results. :lol:

I believe same is true for the South.

[Bandar Qasim]

Simple blood test you suffice. :)

Remember, North-east is predominantly same as Bandar E1b1b1 and the highest negroid concentration of horners on the autosomal 23andme results. :lol:

I believe same is true for the South.

Sanjub believes that Darod Somalis are mostly J1 it seems. The guy is delusional. :p

Also...what you said about the horners on 23andMe, they are not comparable to me as they are all Habesha, while I am not. Don't get the point you are trying to make.. :unsure:

[Doctoris Scientia]

Sanjub believes that Darod Somalis are mostly J1 it seems. The guy is delusional. :p

Hey are you able to run your results at K = 15? And are you continuing to work on your own personal research?

[Bandar Qasim]

Hey are you able to run your results at K = 15?

I thought those multidimensional plots I posted earlier were pretty much sufficient. Admixture runs aren't really that informative you know. But if you have any ideas..

[Doctoris Scientia]

I thought those multidimensional plots I posted earlier were pretty much sufficient. Admixture runs aren't really that informative you know. But if you have any ideas..

No, you did good... I just wanted to know your status.

[pgbk87]

I laugh @ the notion that both the Somalid & and the Aethiopid are considered the same "non-negroid" type............:whoco:

Somalids = E3ba, T
Aethiopids = A3b2,B,DE*, E3b1,E3ba, J1, T

[Bandar Qasim]

I laugh @ the notion that both the Somalid & and the Aethiopid are considered the same "non-negroid" type............:whoco:

Somalids = E3ba, T
Aethiopids = A3b2,B,DE*, E3b1,E3ba, J1, T

''E3ba'' doesn't even exist..The old name was E3b1a, it's currently called E1b1b1a.

Also haplogroups do not define race at all (e.g. Cameroonians with R, Austrians with E etc), you should know this.

And why bump such a old thread?

[Doctoris Scientia]

I laugh @ the notion that both the Somalid & and the Aethiopid are considered the same "non-negroid" type............:whoco:

Somalids = E3ba, T
Aethiopids = A3b2,B,DE*, E3b1,E3ba, J1, T

Somalis are more similar to Nilo-Saharans from Darfur in regard to y-dna in comparison to Ethiopians, i.e. a predominant frequency of E-M78. But autosomally, while both Somalis and Ethiopians are likely about 90-100% Cushitic, Western Sudanic populations are likely a blend of Central Sudanic, Nilotic, Cushitic, and Niger-Kordofanian components.

[Bandar Qasim]

Somalis are more similar to Nilo-Saharans from Darfur in regard to y-dna in comparison to Ethiopians, i.e. a predominant frequency of E-M78. But autosomally, while both Somalis and Ethiopians are likely about 90-100% Cushitic, Western Sudanic populations are likely a blend of Central Sudanic, Nilotic, Cushitic, and Niger-Kordofanian components.

Southern Egyptians have V12 at frequencies of ~40%, Ethiopian Oromos have it at ~30%, it's not only Darfurians who have it. Also it was a very small sample size tested in them, it doesn't mean anything.

[Doctoris Scientia]

Southern Egyptians have V12 at frequencies of ~40%, Ethiopian Oromos have it at ~30%, it's not only Darfurians who have it. Also it was a very small sample size tested in them, it doesn't mean anything.

Yeah I know, I'm just trying to correlate the difference between y-dna frequencies among Somalis in comparison to other Horner populations doesn't indicate drastic differences. Since the Darfurian samples yet tested were about +70% E-M78.

[Aware_Dog]

YDNA Haplogroups E1b1b (E-M215) and E1b1b1a (E-M78) distribution in East and NorthEast Africa, according to Cruciani et. al 2004 and 2007.


E-M78 belongs to clade E3b (E-M215). On the basis of robust phylogeographic considerations, an eastern African origin has been proposed for E-M215 (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2004), with a coalescence time of 22.4 ky (95% C.I. 20.9-23.9 ky; recalculated from Cruciani et al. 2004, see Materials and Methods). A north-eastern African origin for haplogroup E-M78 implies that E-M215 chromosomes were introduced in north-eastern Africa from eastern Africa in the Upper Paleolithic, between 23.9 ky ago (the upper bound for E-M215 TMRCA in eastern Africa) and 17.3 ky ago (the lower bound for E-M78 TMRCA here estimated, fig. 1). In turn, the presence of EM78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be only explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in north-eastern Africa.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uqlFudEVY8U/S-GyimDck-I/AAAAAAAAAEE/qzwYEkie9Ps/s1600/EM215_East+Africa2.PNG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uqlFudEVY8U/S-Gz54CtgCI/AAAAAAAAAEc/hu1eqSyp9hk/s1600/E-M78_North_East_Africa2.PNG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uqlFudEVY8U/S-GzKBuDPTI/AAAAAAAAAEM/tUyDdsWaF8Y/s1600/E-M78_East_Africa2.PNG

[pgbk87]

''E3ba'' doesn't even exist..The old name was E3b1a, it's currently called E1b1b1a.

Also haplogroups do not define race at all (e.g. Cameroonians with R, Austrians with E etc), you should know this.

And why bump such a old thread?

You're right.....:D (You put me in my place :ashamed:)

But the real question is, "What is race?", cuz I've never subscribed it

P.S.... The thread re-emerged

[Bandar Qasim]

Clear pattern of V12 originating in Egypt/North Sudan and migrating towards the Indian ocean as V32 and leaving a trace in Ethiopia.

[Aware_Dog]

Yes Bandar, I just added the quote from Cruciani 2007 supporting the scenario that you stated.

[Ezana]

You should add Semino 2004's data. Cruciani 2004's Amhara data is a bit skewed. No other study has found as high a frequency of E-M123. E-M78 was much more frequent (and E-M35).

[beyoku]

PN2* Data would also put things into perspective.

[Aware_Dog]

You should add Semino 2004's data. Cruciani 2004's Amhara data is a bit skewed. No other study has found as high a frequency of E-M123. E-M78 was much more frequent (and E-M35).

The Semino data was already added in this post (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=164835&postcount=10), as part of the results for SNPs screened starting from the root level in Ethiopia to Date, so we already know that E-M123 exists at ~ 5% in Ethiopia, with a slightly higher presence among the Beta Israel (~11%) .
The Cruciani papers OTOH only screened from the E-M215 level and down, that is why I included it separately. Additionally, important to note is that Semino did not test for E-V6, while Cruciani did, and both did not test for E-M293 (since it wasn't found then).
Regarding more info on E1b1b in Upper Egypt, There is a discussion here (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=2358.0), based on some STR markers from "Diversity of 17-locus Y-STR haplotypes in Upper (Southern) Egyptians" Ghada Omran 2008 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JHP-4SBHFND-5&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1588322813&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1e8a8cdea1e4707a6444a27ad3ff803c&searchtype=a), with a prediction of ~40% (82/208) E1b1b haplotypes found in Southern Egypt, ~20% of the E1b1b seems to be predicted to E-M81, ~6% to E-M123 and the remaining to E-M78. I haven't checked it out in further detail though.

[Awall]

I think this is off topic, however I did not want to have to start a new thread...

Do Somalis and Habeshis share a common haplogroup and Y-Dna? Are there any genetic/raciall similarities. Most times I can decipher an Ethiopian from a Somali, however recently I have seen an individual whom I think is ethiopian but looks very much so Somali. Any explanations?

( Does anyone have a post in the classification section of a Somali who looks Habeshi or vice versa)

---------- Post added 2010-12-27 at 12:17 ----------

What about Egyptian Nubians and Sudanese concerning genetic/racial similarities, differentiation, common dna all of that???

[Sanjub_Saraswati]

Most times I can decipher an Ethiopian from a Somali, however recently I have seen an individual whom I think is ethiopian but looks very much so Somali. Any explanations?


I think it varies, there are many habesha who look Somali and vice versa, i for instance look more habesha than somali, atleast according to the Eritreans i know and the somali strangers who often get suprised when i reply in Somali. My mother on the other hand doesn't look horn african at all people always assume she's north african or arab. My father however looks like a typical Somali from central/northeast. So as you see it varies alot, even among individuals of the same family.

[Bandar Qasim]

Do Somalis and Habeshis share a common haplogroup and Y-Dna?

They both share the same haplogroups more or less, albeit in different frequencies.


Are there any genetic/raciall similarities. Most times I can decipher an Ethiopian from a Somali, however recently I have seen an individual whom I think is ethiopian but looks very much so Somali. Any explanations?

( Does anyone have a post in the classification section of a Somali who looks Habeshi or vice versa)

The main differences are height, eye-shape and hair texture, IMO. Habesha tend to be shorter, have bigger rounder eyes and have nappier hair than Somalis. But this topic is about genetics, let's not digress.


What about Egyptian Nubians and Sudanese concerning genetic/racial similarities, differentiation, common dna all of that???

See Aware_Dog's earlier post with Egyptian samples. https://forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=264140&postcount=48 Also, see this paper on Sudanese yDNA: http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/Hassan-Sudan-2008-AJPA.pdf

[Awall]

Oh I understand. That similarity makes alot of sense to me now.

I know that its off-topic but that was helpful. The man I was talking about must be an Ethiopian as he has many of the characteristics you mentioned. Thank you...(okay no more side track now)

Okay I will look at it and I guess I should send Aware_dog a message if i have more questions . thanks

[Aware_Dog]

Anybody interested in double checking the Frequencies of the YDNA haplogroups found in Ethiopia as shown in this graphic (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=164835&postcount=10), can verify it for themselves by going through the sources shown on the Graphic, where all the sources can be downloaded as a single zip file from this link here:

Download Ethiopian YDNA.zip from FileFactory.com (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b4dc607/n/Ethiopian_YDNA.zip)

[Aware_Dog]

SNPs tested within YDNA Haplogroup E in Ethiopia to date.

Note: Henn et. al 2008 may have tested for E-M293 from Underhill et. al 2000 's, 88 Ethiopian (unspecified) samples, but it is unclear, so I didn't include E-M293 as tested for Underhill et. al 2000.

[Bandar Qasim]

Kenyan Somali mtDNA figures I found recently:

[Aware_Dog]

That's interesting Bandar. Thanks for the Data. When you say Kenyan Somali, are they those Somalis that moved to Kenya a few generations ago? (like for instance that one general, forgot his name and those people who run the real-estate business over there) or are they just regular Somalis from North Eastern Kenya?
In any case, what stands out to me versus the general Ethiopian mtDNA data at a quick glance, is the relatively higher, X, L2, I1(?) and the Lack of a couple L lineages found in Ethiopia like L0, L4 and also the lack of U lineages.

[Bandar Qasim]

That's interesting Bandar. Thanks for the Data. When you say Kenyan Somali, are they those Somalis that moved to Kenya a few generations ago? (like for instance that one general, forgot his name and those people who run the real-estate business over there) or are they just regular Somalis from North Eastern Kenya?
In any case, what stands out to me versus the general Ethiopian mtDNA data at a quick glance, is the relatively higher, X, L2, I1(?) and the Lack of a couple L lineages found in Ethiopia like L0, L4 and also the lack of U lineages.

It only mentioned that the samples were collected in medical clinics in Nairobi. I guess both migrants and natives.

I'm a bit surprised at the I frequency (a subgroup of N). It's a minor West Asian clade but apparently mades it way to Kenya as well, it is also found in other Cushitic Kenyan groups at even higher frequencies (~15-20%) (according to this study (http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2008%20vol86/12_Castri.pdf)).

[Ezana]

Very interesting, Bandar, thanks for sharing. That's a higher amount of M1 than in another study I saw (it was around 10-12%, IIRC), but a lower percentage of L (~77% in the other study, IIRC). The significant presence of R0a, like in other Horn African populations indicates that there was probably a common ancestral group that Horn Africans derive from, with paternal differentiation, migration, etc. making up the main differences.

[Aware_Dog]

An update for the YDNA profile chart when data from de Filippo et. al 2010 with the 98 samples from Ethiopia (https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=271422&postcount=10) added under "Ethiopians Unspecified". SNPs tested to date within Haplogroup E for the given sources also updated (2nd attachment)

All source data (ZIP file) can be downloaded here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6v8ddzn6twfcay5

[Aware_Dog]

Benadir Somalis in Yemen are nothing in comparison to Ethnic somalis, infact most of Benadir Somalis live in the west in particular the UK.

In Yemen we have almost 1 million Somalis and in Denmark only 15000. You telling me that the probability proportion of the results from these samplings are equall?
Sorry but your theory holds no water whatsoever, your still trying to maintain a false wet-dream of a pure homogenous population..

I however will still keep following my instincts and eyes untill the day a thorough and reliable study is conducted on the whole Somali population.

I'm starting to think that Sanjub maybe right about this, The paternal lineage diversity of Somalis may not be as homogeneous as conventionally thought. I'm also sharing with a Somali J1 on 23andME. J1 may not be @ 27% in the General Somali Population as that one paper noted, but it is may not be as low as <3%, could be in the 10-15% range.

[Regulus Tera]

I'm starting to think that Sanjub maybe right about this, The paternal lineage diversity of Somalis may not be as homogeneous as conventionally thought. I'm also sharing with a Somali J1 on 23andME. J1 may not be @ 27% in the General Somali Population as that one paper noted, but it is may not be as low as <3%, could be in the 10-15% range.

That's not really plenty of fuel for speculation in this particular case. Reading a solid scientific study will give us more valid insight than a single anecdote.

[Aware_Dog]

That's not really plenty of fuel for speculation in this particular case. Reading a solid scientific study will give us more valid insight than a single anecdote.

It's not only just that one case in particular, I was reading other Somali YDNA data (Re: Trombetta '11) that had me speculating, albeit not specifically wit regards to J1, but in terms of the general composition of the lineages present in Somali males.

[Ezana]

It's not only just that one case in particular, I was reading other Somali YDNA data (Re: Trombetta '11) that had me speculating, albeit not specifically wit regards to J1, but in terms of the general composition of the lineages present in Somali males.

Can you share Trombetta '11?

[Aware_Dog]

Can you share Trombetta '11?

Yeah, it is freely available here : http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073

With the updated phylogeny of E1b1 here :http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073.g001

Important Supplemental Information here: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073.s001

and here :http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073.s002

[Ezana]

Thanks, man, but I don't see any new sources of data or even non-E-M35 data. Is it just a reclassification of former E-M35* samples from Cruciani et al. 2004 (Table S2)? That's disappointing.

[Lol_Race]

New study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21522/abstract) on the spread of HV1. Contains new samples from Somalia, Sudan and Ethiopia. The frequency of this haplogroup in Somalia looks relatively high.

[Doctoris Scientia]

Do we have any mtDNA and yDNA samples from the Borana?

[Bandar Qasim]

Do we have any mtDNA and yDNA samples from the Borana?

Just y-DNA (Cruciani et al.), but with only 7 samples, so it's kind of skewed data. It was pretty much only E1b1b1.

[ChechenRebelZ]

Hey what do you guys know about mt-dna J1c2 in the Horn of Africa?

I ask because its my mt-dna group and I just logged onto FTDNA for the first time in ages and I just noticed that I have a low resolution (HVR1) match with 2 Ethiopians, one of whom seems to be a Tigrai. Could this be evidence that some Horners might have some distant European or Middle Eastern links?

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9074/j1c2matches.jpg

[Bandar Qasim]

It's rare, but found according to this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/