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whitefan415
2010-08-21, 00:27
How can Muslim endure the scorching heat without consuming any liquid for at least 12 hours from dawn to dusk? Some area in Mid-East like UAE temperature rises up to 45 °C - 50 °C during summertime. I am amazed they don't get dehydrated by the end of the day. Also, are you allowed to moisten your lip and tongue with water during daytime?

karakoyunlu
2010-08-21, 00:48
I think you can moisten the lip as long as you don't swallow the water.

In Arabic countries people pretty much stop functioning during the day, I think they take many vacation days during Ramadan.

In Turkey, a secular country, you have to work unless you use your vacation days.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 01:37
I wouldn't generalise as 'Muslims', rather as 'Muslims who fast during Ramadan'.

alfieb
2010-08-21, 01:57
I wouldn't generalise as 'Muslims', rather as 'Muslims who fast during Ramadan'.

Of course there will be Muslims who don't partake in sawm, but fasting during Ramadan is compulsory under Islamic law. It's one of the Five Pillars of Islam.

So, the real Muslims fast, and the secular wishy-washy ones don't.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 02:14
Of course there will be Muslims who don't partake in sawm, but fasting during Ramadan is compulsory under Islamic law. It's one of the Five Pillars of Islam.

So, the real Muslims fast, and the secular wishy-washy ones don't.

How are you so sure fasting during Ramadan is compulsory under Islamic law? I'm not. I wouldn't trust anything I read without learning Arabic and reading the original Kuran for myself, an endeavor I likely will never pursue due to lack of interest in religion. Many say 'according to the Kuran the real Islam is a religion of peace' while others say 'the Kuran says kill the infidel'. How do we know who to believe and judge as 'real Muslims'? We are taught in Turkey that the Kuran quotes 'religion is a personal affair' and if anything, I'd rather believe the peaceful Muslims who maintain their religion within themselves should be seen as 'real Muslims' and not the problematic ones who cause divides between communities.

alfieb
2010-08-21, 02:23
You're from a secular country, though. Before Ataturk, you probably wouldn't have held those views. Throughout the Muslim world, you have millions upon millions of people fasting for Ramadan. Why? Because their religion tells them to. Turks have a more westernized, secular view of how to live their lives, which is fine and dandy, but it's not Islamic.

While I don't speak Arabic, Surah 2:185 (http://quran.com/2/185) specifically commands fasting during Ramadan unless you are sick.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 02:46
You're from a secular country, though. Before Ataturk, you probably wouldn't have held those views. Throughout the Muslim world, you have millions upon millions of people fasting for Ramadan. Why? Because their religion tells them to. Turks have a more westernized, secular view of how to live their lives, which is fine and dandy, but it's not Islamic.

I see your point, but this is like saying a religious Protestant is less Christian than a religious Catholic. Is there any real way of knowing? That's the reason I, personally, choose not to pass judgement over who I think is 'real Muslim' or not. That's not to say I don't hold views on radicals of course.


While I don't speak Arabic, Surah 2:185 (http://quran.com/2/185) specifically commands fasting during Ramadan unless you are sick.

The problem here is that, I've heard many times that the meaning of certain words and phrases can differ subtly (in Arabic and consequently) in the Kuran to alter the true content. This is the reason I believe one cannot pass mentioned judgement without reading the text themselves, with good understanding. I acknowledge that it is fatuous to expect everyone to spend years learning Arabic and some more on reading and understanding the Kuran to be able to form an opinion but then judging someone is not the same as holding an opinion.

There is also use in pointing out that I'm not speaking of fasting specifically but all the commandments and requests of the Kuran as a whole.

alfieb
2010-08-21, 02:53
Well, that's very convenient now isn't it?

I don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, so I don't have to do what the Bible tells me to do.

If you think it's important to learn Arabic in order to follow Islam properly, learn Arabic... except that you said that you won't do so, so you're just looking for an excuse not to do as Muhammad said to do.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's call it what it is.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 03:18
Well, that's very convenient now isn't it?

I don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, so I don't have to do what the Bible tells me to do.

If you think it's important to learn Arabic in order to follow Islam properly, learn Arabic... except that you said that you won't do so, so you're just looking for an excuse not to do as Muhammad said to do.

Which is perfectly fine, but let's call it what it is.

Well that's the problem with religions as a whole; language barriers. I at no point insisted that one must learn the language of the original texts to follow a religion, contrary, I acknowledge and underline that differences in belief may exist between people of the same religion. That is the reason I believe passing judgement on whether someone is a real member of x religion should be done at the compromise of learning that persons religion as clearly as possible. As I said, holding an opinion is very different to making a judgement. You can hate a religion, which is holding an opinion on it, but the criteria of the religion is not something you hold.

That aside, I don't care much for what Muhammad told me to do as I do not believe in his cause but I still do not judge whether one is a 'real' or 'fake' Muslim. That is the only point I am trying to make.

alfieb
2010-08-21, 03:47
By its very definition, Islam means submission to God. If you follow the Quran and do what God told you to do, you are an adherent of Islam. If you do not, then you are not. How can one be a Muslim if they don't care about the word of God?

Kyte
2010-08-21, 04:01
By its very definition, Islam means submission to God. If you follow the Quran and do what God told you to do, you are an adherent of Islam. If you do not, then you are not. How can one be a Muslim if they don't care about the word of God?

I never claimed to be anything more than a nominal Muslim, personally speaking, but those who consider themselves more than that may practice Islam according to their own interpretation, which brings me to my initial argument of 'Islam is a personal thing between believer and god', which is apparently said in the Kuran.

alfieb
2010-08-21, 04:30
I have a "personal thing" with God, and I don't follow the Quran. Does that make me a Muslim?

Saif ad-Dhib
2010-08-21, 04:42
How can Muslim endure the scorching heat without consuming any liquid for at least 12 hours from dawn to dusk? Some area in Mid-East like UAE temperature rises up to 45 °C - 50 °C during summertime. I am amazed they don't get dehydrated by the end of the day. Also, are you allowed to moisten your lip and tongue with water during daytime?

In the more modern countries like the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, etc. they have the luxury of air conditioning. People with important jobs and positions still work. It is also true, however, that much activity stops for the month.

You will learn the significance of what it is to be hungry, weak, and near-death during Ramadan.

BENK
2010-08-21, 05:08
I have a "personal thing" with God, and I don't follow the Quran. Does that make me a Muslim?

I'm not expert, but You maybe are a Muslim, while alot of people call them self Muslim, not.

Islam, which means Submission, is the state of mind of all people who submit to God alone. All messengers, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus and all previous monotheists were Submitters ( 2:131; 5:111; 7:126; 10:72,84; 22:78; 27:31,42,91; 28:53; 72:14). Thus, the only religion approved by God is Submission to God (3:19). It is God Almighty who uses this attribute to describe those who submit to His law (22:78). Islam is referred to as the "Religion of Abraham" in many verses since Meccan idol worshipers were claiming that they were following their father Abraham (2:130,135; 3:95; 4:125; 6:161; 12:37-38; 16:123; 21:73; 22:78). And Muhammad was a follower of Abraham (16:123).

http://www.yuksel.org/e/
http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm

whitefan415
2010-08-21, 06:01
In the more modern countries like the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, etc. they have the luxury of air conditioning. People with important jobs and positions still work. It is also true, however, that much activity stops for the month.

You will learn the significance of what it is to be hungry, weak, and near-death during Ramadan.

What about all those foreign workers from Pakistan and India who toil most of the menial job in the Gulf region, I am sure many of them are also Muslim. Do they have the luxury to have the month off during Ramadan?

Creature
2010-08-21, 06:08
What about all those foreign workers from Pakistan and India who toil most of the menial job in the Gulf region, I am sure many of them are also Muslim. Do they have the luxury to have the month off during Ramadan?

From what I've heard, the slaves tend to not work much during Ramadhan, though if their masters allow them the luxury, I don't know.

Arabs have survived for centuries in scorching heat, and the Nomads in particular - they practically fast everyday anyway - usually wrap themselves in heat-resistant material and there are many shade methods probably implemented.

In a few years the UK will have Ramadhan in summer, and that is an intriguing prospect, though the sun rarely shines here, it's still an endurance test. Even now they are 16 hours.

whitefan415
2010-08-21, 09:58
In a few years the UK will have Ramadhan in summer, and that is an intriguing prospect, though the sun rarely shines here, it's still an endurance test. Even now they are 16 hours.

What you mean by in a few years? Don't Muslim in UK observe Ramadan like the rest?

Krutz
2010-08-21, 10:13
What you mean by in a few years? Don't Muslim in UK observe Ramadan like the rest?

Probably will be a national holiday with days off from work and the PM shouting Allahu akbar from the rooftops :p

Sargon999
2010-08-21, 11:16
I truly do feel sorry for religious people from all religions :D

Ibbi
2010-08-21, 11:19
I wouldn't generalise as 'Muslims', rather as 'Muslims who fast during Ramadan'.

If you dont follow the Five Pillar's of Islam than you are no Muslim so stop calling yourself one. Fasting is compulsory for everyone over 15 and so is Praying five times a day and paying Zakah aka a Charitable contribution. I have been to Turkey and the whole notion your trying to convince people here that somehow Turks believe in some other Islam is Bogus. Quite contrary to the believe Turkey today get's becoming more Conservative every day.:D

Humata
2010-08-21, 11:41
During Ramadan, practicing muslims;
- Wake up before sunrise to consume enough food and drink to sustain them in the coming day
- Work and attend school at normal hours
- Avoid doing any physical activity until after Iftar (the sunset meal that breaks their fast)

Gulf Arabs, however...
- Cheat by altering their sleeping pattern. They tend to be awake from 2-3pm until 3-4am and effectively fast only a couple of conscious hours.
- Cheat by changing the law. Work and school hours are altered to accommodate for their fasting requirement. Businesses and roads are typically empty/sluggish during Ramadan.

Furthermore, most homes and work environs in the Middle-East (particularly the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia) are air-conditioned.

Fasting is one of the Five Pillars of Islam, as Ibbi described above. A muslim who does not comply with the Pillars (fasting in Ramadan, pray five times a day, attend a Hajj to Mecca at least once in their lifetime, provide for charity and accept God and Mohammad as his prophet) is not a proper muslim. These are Islam's basic tenets and cannot be questioned under the pretense of poor translation.

As a non-muslim, I personally feel the concept and intentions behind Ramadan are righteous and well-meaning.
Putting one's self through hardship to understand and feel how the unfortunate live their lives is, in my opinion, much needed in this world of excess.
It is ironic that Gulf Arabs, the descendants of Islam's first willing converts, are the ones cutting corners so blatantly for the sake of comfort, thus stripping Ramadan of its' spiritual essence.

Semitic Duwa
2010-08-21, 12:22
I know a bloke who lifts weights during ramadan!

Krutz
2010-08-21, 13:08
Had a muslim dude at work once who did this ramadan shit, he was cranky like some little kid on sugar withdrawal and was a royal pain in the ass, throwing tools around, snapping at everyone and everything.
He was told to GTFO and not come back.

Humata
2010-08-21, 13:12
Had a muslim dude at work once who did this ramadan shit, he was cranky like some little kid on sugar withdrawal and was a royal pain in the ass, throwing tools around, snapping at everyone and everything.
He was told to GTFO and not come back.

Unfortunately, Islam does not have jurisdiction over a person's sugar cravings.

In all seriousness, most of the muslims I've seen who fast behave exactly the same as usual - Except they're that much keener to leave for dinner. :)

Krutz
2010-08-21, 13:20
Unfortunately, Islam does not have jurisdiction over a person's sugar cravings.

In all seriousness, most of the muslims I've seen who fast behave exactly the same as usual - Except they're that much keener to leave for dinner. :)

Yeah well i guess this guy was pretty hardcore, he showed up at work at 6am and then did not eat anything until we stopped for the day at 4-5pm, also he was a smoker and gave that up aswell during his little starvation experiment.

We did our best to talk some sense into him and goded him to eat or he would be useless and anoying, i was being extra kind and ofered to share my bacon with him but he did not want any the ungrateful little bugger :lol:

Saif ad-Dhib
2010-08-21, 14:28
I know a bloke who lifts weights during ramadan!

I do it while fasting; it is an exercise in willpower and mental strength. My father and I get up before dawn, eat and drink, and then sleep for a few more hours after fajr. We get up, work, play, and finish other duties until sunset when we can eat again.

solkiM
2010-08-21, 16:37
I worked with a cool Afghan dude yesterday. We had a heavy job (moving around 20kg blocks the whole day). I asked him how on earth does he cope with that and not eating. He says that if he has to do hard labour he skips ramadan.

I must say i think the ramadan concept is a very noble one. However some of that goes away when you start to feast luxuous dinners when night sets in. A Turkish friend of mine says she considers ramadan as a celebration month with lots of cozyness between people and good food :)

Still i feel i should participate next year. I am already experienced with extreme diets but this is much more noble.

Creature
2010-08-21, 17:03
What you mean by in a few years? Don't Muslim in UK observe Ramadan like the rest?

It goes back every year by 2 weeks . . :whoco:

---------- Post added 2010-08-21 at 17:06 ----------


I know a bloke who lifts weights during ramadan!

I still train, the 'physical activity' is referring to sexual interaction.

Saif ad-Dhib
2010-08-21, 17:29
I worked with a cool Afghan dude yesterday. We had a heavy job (moving around 20kg blocks the whole day). I asked him how on earth does he cope with that and not eating. He says that if he has to do hard labour he skips ramadan.

I must say i think the ramadan concept is a very noble one. However some of that goes away when you start to feast luxuous dinners when night sets in. A Turkish friend of mine says she considers ramadan as a celebration month with lots of cozyness between people and good food :)

Still i feel i should participate next year. I am already experienced with extreme diets but this is much more noble.

The only reason I eat a lot is because I will lose muscle mass if I do not.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 17:50
If you dont follow the Five Pillar's of Islam than you are no Muslim so stop calling yourself one. Fasting is compulsory for everyone over 15 and so is Praying five times a day and paying Zakah aka a Charitable contribution. I have been to Turkey and the whole notion your trying to convince people here that somehow Turks believe in some other Islam is Bogus. Quite contrary to the believe Turkey today get's becoming more Conservative every day.:D

Oh I'm sorry, you've been to Turkey, your observations from a holiday, of course, trump those I've made over 2 decades.

You clearly have failed to process the discussion that took place earlier in the thread as you've completely disregarded what I wrote about judgemental attitudes on people's personal interpretations of religion. While I don't doubt your inability to understand my previous posts I presribe you a re-education of Turkey.

Let's begin your re-education with a question: Did you experience the same Islam you experience in Somalia, in Turkey? I highly doubt that, Turkey is a constitutionally secular state, the headscarf alongside all religious symbols is banned in government institutions. Doesn't sound much like any non-Turkic Muslim country so far.

The amount of people that fast, in Turkey, doesn't compare to those that don't, yet the people who believe in Islam are of a higher ratio than most, majority Muslim countries.

The ratio of people that continue to consume alcohol throughout Ramadan, in Turkey, are likely a few times the proportion of drinkers, in any given non-Turkic Muslim state, who consume alcohol outside of Ramadan, yet believers of Islam in Turkey comprise the majority religion.

The amount of women that wear the headscarf is nowhere near the amount of women that don't, in Turkey. Let's try to think of a non-Turkic, Muslim country that can even begin to compare. Yet, once again, this country is Muslim majority.

The Islamic wedding is considered void by the government of the Republic of Turkey and the amount of Islamic wedding vows taken in Turkey is negligibly low. We're still a Muslim country, though.

The law of Turkey is completely secular and any religious rules are completely disregarded. People are not stoned or whipped and capital punishment has been abolished some years ago, yet we remain Muslim.

I can go on with the list but I believe, above, are a relevant amount of examples. The same way your opinion is invalid on who is Muslim and not, your wishful opinion on Turkey is null.

As for your 'bogus' claim; the only thing 'bogus' is your badly worded knowledge of Turkey. If you've indeed been to Turkey you would know that life is much more secular in this country in comparison to any non-Turkic, Muslim country.

Following our little lesson, I invite you to research what you argue about in future, in order to avoid the embarassment you have just experienced.

Sargon999
2010-08-21, 17:53
Turkey is merely a secular country for Muslims although it is true that as a state Turkey is somewhat better than most Muslim countries regarding these matters. But the average Turk is a nationalist and islamist in one body and mind.

Kyte
2010-08-21, 18:02
Turkey is merely a secular country for Muslims although it is true that as a state Turkey is somewhat better than most Muslim countries regarding these matters. But the average Turk is a nationalist and islamist in one body and mind.

We must not forget a large part of Turkey is in the middle east. We, naturally, have been subject to our fair adoption of middle eastern 'values'.

While what you say about the average Turk being a nationalist and Islamist is invalid, it is an unfortunate truth that a some people in Turkey do subscribe to such an ideology, though Turkish nationalist and Muslim is more common of course.