Sicilians.

[rapunzels tower]

Some pictures from different parts of the island :D Any observations, comments about influences you see or other similar looking groups, or if these are representative? Most Italian Americans are of Sicilian origins so also I'm interested in if you think these people would look typical amongst a group of Italian Americans.

[rapunzels tower]

In my opinion, there is no unifying look that bonds these people all together... they all look entirely different, with different influences.

[birko19]

Looks like a mix of South Euro, North Euro, Middle East, and North Africa, good stuff :)

[mysteriousvistor]

Actually they look like they have a mesocephalic skull leading towards the brachycephalic side.

[rapunzels tower]

Actually they look like they have a mesocephalic skull leading towards the brachycephalic side.

And what does this indicate?

[mysteriousvistor]

And what does this indicate?

They have short faces. I personally think that dolichocephalic individual are more attractive.But then agian, I'm bias.

[rapunzels tower]

Looks like a mix of South Euro, North Euro, Middle East, and North Africa, good stuff :)


From an Assyrian perspective, do any of these people look familiar to you?

Since they're basically a mixture of Greeks, mainland Italians, Phoenicians/Levantines, North Africans, and Normans/Northern Euros, everyone basically looks different, like one of these or a combination.

[Pallantides]

Looks like a mix of South Euro, North Euro, Middle East, and North Africa, good stuff :)

This chick could pass as Northern European(atleast based on this picture alone)
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28808&d=1286931266


None of the others though...

[rapunzels tower]

This chick could pass as Northern European(atleast based on this picture alone)
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28808&d=1286931266


None of the others though...


What places would some of the others fit?

[birko19]

From an Assyrian perspective, do any of these people look familiar to you?

Since they're basically a mixture of Greeks, mainland Italians, Phoenicians/Levantines, North Africans, and Normans/Northern Euros, everyone basically looks different, like one of these or a combination.

A lot of them can pass for Assyrians, Armenians, Greeks, so on, here are the ones that could pass for Assyrian:

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28822&d=1286931379
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28811&d=1286931266
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28810&d=1286931266
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28809&d=1286931266
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28814&d=1286931266
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28817&d=1286931379
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28825&d=1286931379
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28827&d=1286931505
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28830&d=1286931505
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28832&d=1286931505
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28833&d=1286931505
https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28834&d=1286931505

[rapunzels tower]

This man, to me looks very much Armenian or Lebanese;

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28832&d=1286931505

An example of a pan-Italian look would be this guy here;

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28829&d=1286931505


What's interesting to me is that very few of these people look like common Italian Americans despite the fact that most Italians here have their origins from Sicily. By the way I decided to stop being stubborn and saying Sicilians aren't Italian, lol however I still do feel a connection to Sicily that I don't feel to other regions.

[davidxx]

Their look what when i think of italian mafia look.:p

[rapunzels tower]

Their look what when i think of italian mafia look.:p

Which person in the pictures reminded you of that?

Realistically it DOES make sense since the Mafia is Sicilian in origin.

[alfieb]

I think Sicilian-Americans make up less than half, but it's still a high number and we make up a disproportionate number of famous Italian-Americans.

Al Pacino, Joe Montana, Jon Bon Jovi, Frank Sinatra, Frank Zappa, Lady Gaga, Mike Piazza, Joe DiMaggio, basically the cream of the wop crop were/are of Sicilian origins.

As far as influences, that's because people very seldom married outside of their town and the smaller villages are basically enclaves. You can find towns where it's overwhelmingly E, J, I, R, etc... towns where everyone have Latin-based surnames, and towns where everyone have Greek names. My grandmother's town was very Greek and the names (and features) of the people reflect that.

The "Sicilian" look is when you're a mixed cocktail of all of them... with significant amounts of Semitic, Greek, and Latin heritage and features. Basically, you find "Sicilians" in the big four cities of Paliemmu, Catania, Missina, and Sarausa. In the smaller cities and towns it's a bit less diverse.

[birko19]

Speaking of Sicilians, this is a great scene, perhaps it answers your questions :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqccyUpnZwA

[alfieb]

:rolleyes: in every thread where Sicilians are mentioned, the "Sicilians were spawned from niggers" clip must be played. It's like Godwin's law.

I am happy to report that we do not have any more SSA DNA than comparable European populations, and that the scene, while entertaining, makes two fatal flaws: One, Sicilians never looked like Northern Italians, and two, the Moors in Sicily weren't black.

[birko19]

:rolleyes: in every thread where Sicilians are mentioned, the "Sicilians were spawned from niggers" clip must be played. It's like Godwin's law.

I am happy to report that we do not have any more SSA DNA than comparable European populations, and that the scene, while entertaining, makes two fatal flaws: One, Sicilians never looked like Northern Italians, and two, the Moors in Sicily weren't black.

Don't cry about it, I'm only kidding ;)

[alfieb]

I know, and by itself your action was not offensive, it's just that the video is linked to every time Sicilians are discussed. :lol:

Not to mention that Christopher Walken couldn't pass for Sicilian.

The Jew who played a Sicilian in The Princess Bride was more convincing.

[sgh]

Speaking of Sicilians, this is a great scene, perhaps it answers your questions :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqccyUpnZwA

Wait so if you cross a white and a black you get a Sicilian :lol: Sicilians should start celebrating Kwanzaa :lol:

[Sargon999]

Proud people

[alfieb]

With our history, you're either going to be proud or ashamed.

We chose to be proud... which explains why we're stubborn, loud, thickheaded, and very traditional... and why after 160 years, most Sicilians still refuse to call themselves Italian.

We are an autonomous region with our own President and our own language. :p

[Sohigh!!!]

and why after 160 years, most Sicilians still refuse to call themselves Italian.

I don't believe that. I have Sicilian friends and stayed at their families on holidays and even though they consider Sicily as a thing of its own they still feel as part of Italy.

[alfieb]

The President of Sicily was elected with 66% of the vote and he's the leader of an autonomist/independentist party. If actions speak louder than words, the Sicilian voice can be heard at the polls.

Sicilians root for the Azzurri and many go up north to find work, but that's because they have no alternative. Sicily doesn't have a national team and we have a 20% unemployment rate.

[rapunzels tower]

I don't believe that. I have Sicilian friends and stayed at their families on holidays and even though they consider Sicily as a thing of its own they still feel as part of Italy.

Oh trust me, it's true. There's a Facebook group called "I'm not Italian I'm Sicilian, get it right" and it has quite a few members, I actually joined it a while back. Granted, some of the people on there don't know what they're talking about (they think Turks ruled Sicily) but it shows you how a number of them self-identify. I would say I was Italian if saying Sicilian wasn't an option, though.

[Creature]

The President of Sicily was elected with 66% of the vote and he's the leader of an autonomist/independentist party. If actions speak louder than words, the Sicilian voice can be heard at the polls.

Sicilians root for the Azzurri and many go up north to find work, but that's because they have no alternative. Sicily doesn't have a national team and we have a 20% unemployment rate.

Do Sicilians have representation in the National side though ?, it's something Spain has deployed - their team could be all-Catalan and lose little quality, and is probably a factor as to why the breakaway regions have mellowed in their approach recently.

The Basques and Catalans are integral to the side - the last 4 years years has seen them integrate wholeheartedly and the results are for all to see.

[Sargon999]

I believe it is for Sicily's best to stay a part of Italy, especially due to economic and safety reasons. It is merely beneficial for them if they are free to express their own identity of course.

[rapunzels tower]

I hope this doesn't get off topic, i.e. from classifying/picture posting.

[alfieb]

No.

There are no Sicilians on the Italian national team. There are Argentine-born players and American-born players, but nobody from Sicily.

---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 07:47 ----------


I believe it is for Sicily's best to stay a part of Italy, especially due to economic and safety reasons. It is merely beneficial for them if they are free to express their own identity of course.

Malta was part of Sicily for many centuries and they've done fine on their own. Things can't get much worse than they are now, so why not remove the shackles and only have ourselves to blame?

[Sohigh!!!]

The President of Sicily was elected with 66% of the vote and he's the leader of an autonomist/independentist party. If actions speak louder than words, the Sicilian voice can be heard at the polls.

Sicilians root for the Azzurri and many go up north to find work, but that's because they have no alternative. Sicily doesn't have a national team and we have a 20% unemployment rate.

The President of Sicily? What power does he have and what percentage of Sicilians voted anyway? I've never heard about any Sicily liberation movement and the fact that they're in such a bad condition in comparison to their northern countrymen is a further reason why national authonomy would be a bad idea. It's not an option anyway. Those who say they want it do it just for folklore reasons.


Oh trust me, it's true. There's a Facebook group called "I'm not Italian I'm Sicilian, get it right" and it has quite a few members, I actually joined it a while back. Granted, some of the people on there don't know what they're talking about (they think Turks ruled Sicily) but it shows you how a number of them self-identify. I would say I was Italian if saying Sicilian wasn't an option, though.

So there is a Facebook group? Shit the hype is real.

[alfieb]

He has plenty of power.

Consider this, Sicilians are exempt from paying federal taxes and all of their levied taxes go to Palermo. In return, the regional government is responsible for most services. We're not quite Greenland, but we're getting there.

[Creature]

There's a real similarity between Sicily and Kashmir, then. Albeit Pakistan don't select players born overseas in most sports, though Haroon Khan has become an exception.

[Sohigh!!!]

He has plenty of power.

Consider this, Sicilians are exempt from paying federal taxes and all of their levied taxes go to Palermo. In return, the regional government is responsible for most services. We're not quite Greenland, but we're getting there.

They're as idependent as Wales is and that's good for everyone. I do not believ and I never heard that a great part of Sicilians want national authonomy. The only ones who might gain something from it are the upper Italians.

[Kaiku]

I don't believe that. I have Sicilian friends and stayed at their families on holidays and even though they consider Sicily as a thing of its own they still feel as part of Italy.

It´s pretty much only the Sicilian-Americans a.k.a "not real Sicilians" who think this way. This way of thinking is heavily out dated when compared to actual modern day Sicilians. Alfieb should make the clear distinction between Sicilian-Americans and Sicilians when discussing as it will otherwise cause confusion.

[alfieb]

It´s pretty much only the Sicilian-Americans a.k.a "not real Sicilians" who think this way. This way of thinking is heavily out dated when compared to actual modern day Sicilians. Alfieb should make the clear distinction between Sicilian-Americans and Sicilians when discussing as it will otherwise cause confusion.
My parents were born in Sicily, and I have lived in Italy in the past. I find it offensive that you claim to speak for my people better than I do.

Most "Italian-Americans" are ignorant and know nothing of their claimed homeland.

The Sicilian independence movement has been around since the Italian country has. There have been many Sicilian revolts against Italian rule over the past 160 years.

[Kaiku]

Well my comment was posted on the assumption that you are an Italian or Sicilian American descended from immigrants from the beginning of the last century. Since you have more recent familiarity with Sicily and Italy please take my post with a grain of salt as you are an exception. Having said that I still hold on to the view that most Sicilians do identify themselves as Italians in addition to their local identities.

[sean]

Nowadays the separatist movement is more prominent in the north than in the south (see Lega Nord) but they have abandoned the idea of secession and they are talking about Federalism.
Currently all the power is concentrated in Rome.
Separatist movements are present all over Italy but most people don't take it seriously, most of the politician behind separatism are only populist without a single idea on how to manage to create job and improve the society.
It is not the north oppressing the south as many people think, the north is more advanced because there are more Universities and Industries but we are dominated by Rome.
In my region (Veneto) the Lega Nord had obtained more votes than other we were a different country (The Most Serene Republic of Venice), we where part of the Austrian Empire, we have a different lingua, our own army, we have an excellent economy but still many people dont believe in separatism. Federalism is the option.

Could a moderator split this thread in two (Italian separatism and Sicilian Phenotypes)? Please, i dont want to sabotage the OP.

[alfieb]

Southern Secessionism and Northern Secessionism are the same thing, really.

Lega Nord don't like the South. They think they're poor, criminal leeches who are dragging them down... so the North wants to free themselves of the South.

It's not that they hate Italy. It's not that they're not Italian. All of that Padania mumbojumbo is artificial. It's hatred of the Mezzogiorno that motivates them. If they could, they would just kick Sicily, Sardinia, and the former Kingdom of Naples out of Italy and they would be satisfied... although naturally they would prefer Milan as a capital.

There's a reason Lega Nord and Movement for Autonomy were allies... and there's a reason Lega Nord operates in the South under the name Lega Sud Ausonia.

If Raffa Lombardo in Sicily tried to get out, his closest allies would actually be Umberto Bossi and Lega Nord.

The reason secessionism is stronger in the north is because that's where the money is. It's far easier to say "Fuck this, we're leaving!" when you're wealthy and you see your money going to subsidise people who live far away... even though a few generations ago it was their regions that were rich and their industries stolen to prop up yours... but that's seen as irrelevant today.

[rapunzels tower]

In response to the whole "are Sicilians Italian?" argument and Sicilian identity, I consider Sicily part of Italy and recognize Sicilians as Italian by nationality but I don't embrace an Italian identity, I embrace a Sicilian one. No one denies Sicily is part of Italy but many Sicilians do not embrace an Italian identity and it's understandable why.


And yes, please separate this topic. I want to get back to discussing phenotypes and posting pictures.

[gr2001]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html

[rapunzels tower]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html


37% Greek contribution, 6% North African. I wonder what the Phoenician contribution would be.. I suspect some of the y-dna J2 to be of that origin as well. The article states that Greek genes are distributed throughout the island and are the strongest influence on the Sicilian gene pool but also emphasizes that western Sicily has a much higher proportion of haplogroup R1b than the east has (probably due to the fact that the first inhabitants of the west were Sicanians from the Iberian Peninsula and that the Normans settled more in the west, as well as a number of northern Italians).


Here is my great grandmother, and my dad on the left and his siblings. She's 100% Sicilian btw. Not sure what influences she has.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh54/michaelm0rphin3/DSCF2210.jpg

[gr2001]

But they consider that only haplogroup E1b1b (specifically E3b1a2-V13-the Greek one) had such a contribution (37%). I think it's suggested that j2 came only due to neolithic farmers, but there was j2 among the Greek settlers probably in a large way then.

[rapunzels tower]

But they consider that only haplogroup E1b1b (specifically E3b1a2-V13-the Greek one) had such a contribution (37%). I think it's suggested that j2 came only due to neolithic farmers, but there was j2 among the Greek settlers probably in a large way then.

J2 is also very prevalent on both sides of the island and has its origins in the Fertile Crescent so that implies to me that another significant part of the y-DNA is Near Eastern in origin although not specifically Greek, while the remainder of the haplogroups are R1b and I, which are Western European and would have come via the Romans, Normans, and other Germanic tribes.


How would you classify/place my great grandmother btw? I posted her pic on the other page.

[gr2001]

I think there are different types of j2 but probably both Greeks and Sicilians carried it.

She looks typical med, definitely an eastern one.

btw about this girl

28822

She looks like a Greek pontian girl, could pass for Armenian easily too. She reminds me a lot of this Greek actor:

28965

[rapunzels tower]

I think there are different types of j2 but probably both Greeks and Sicilians carried it.

She looks typical med, definitely an eastern one.

btw about this girl

28822

She looks like a Greek pontian girl, could pass for Armenian easily too. She reminds me a lot of this Greek actor:

28965


J2 is a Neolithic marker, from the Fertile Crescent, so probably Neolithic settlers, Greeks, Phoenicians, etc. carried it to Sicily.


I think the girl you showed me does look Greek, but she could be any sort of eastern Med too. What about my cousin here? I think he looks Balkan although I don't know if necessarily Greek. My mom is in the distance in this, btw.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh54/michaelm0rphin3/DSCF2208.jpg

[gr2001]

He does look Balkan, but still has something ''Italian'' upon him. It seems that he could fit in Albania or Dinaric coasts.

[rapunzels tower]

He does look Balkan, but still has something ''Italian'' upon him. It seems that he could fit in Albania or Dinaric coasts.


He has a look I couldn't quite place. My mom thought he looked Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, or northern Italian rather than Sicilian.

[Humanist]

One of my best Y-DNA matches is Sicilian.

[rapunzels tower]

One of my best Y-DNA matches is Sicilian.


From what part of Sicily?

I've come to the conclusion regardless of what part of the island, I'd bet all Sicilians have at least partial Greek ancestry, partial mainland Italian, and part Middle Eastern if you go back far enough.

[Humanist]

From what part of Sicily?

I've come to the conclusion regardless of what part of the island, I'd bet all Sicilians have at least partial Greek ancestry, partial mainland Italian, and part Middle Eastern if you go back far enough.

Ragusa. Other best (relative term) matches are Armenians and British men.

[rapunzels tower]

Ragusa. Other best (relative term) matches are Armenians and British men.


This is a girl i know from Ragusa;

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs121.snc3/16857_1329259989151_1160512526_994990_4593984_n.jp g


You're Assyrian, right?

[Humanist]

You're Assyrian, right?

Yes, sir.

[rapunzels tower]

Yes, sir.

Where is y-haplogroup G common?

[Humanist]

This is a girl i know from Ragusa;

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs121.snc3/16857_1329259989151_1160512526_994990_4593984_n.jp g


She would not stand out among Assyrians.

---------- Post added 2010-10-13 at 20:33 ----------


Where is y-haplogroup G common?

G2 is most often associated with the Caucasus. G1, however, somewhere in Greater Persia.

[rapunzels tower]

She would not stand out among Assyrians.

Here's another pic;

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs283.snc3/27813_1459755931468_1160512526_1319115_5521010_n.j pg


I'm curious as to what my y-dna haplogroup is. If I had to guess probably J2 or R1b.

[Humanist]

Here's another pic;

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs283.snc3/27813_1459755931468_1160512526_1319115_5521010_n.j pg


I'm curious as to what my y-dna haplogroup is. If I had to guess probably J2 or R1b.

I created this Y-DNA frequency tree a few weeks back, following the Sicilian Project's release of their updated Y-DNA frequencies.

Sicilian, Armenian, Assyrian, and N. Iraqi Jewish R1b frequencies approach 30%.

[rapunzels tower]

I created this Y-DNA frequency tree a few weeks back, following the Sicilian Project's release of their updated Y-DNA frequencies.

Sicilian, Armenian, Assyrian, and N. Iraqi Jewish R1b frequencies approach 30%.


Can you show me the y-DNA results for people from Palermo, Sicily (assuming it has it broken down by region)? I'm curious to see since that is where my family is from.

[Humanist]

Can you show me the y-DNA results for people from Palermo, Sicily (assuming it has it broken down by region)? I'm curious to see since that is where my family is from.

I do not believe the administrator has enabled the map feature. If so, you might have had some luck. Here are details for the Sicily Project current as of yesterday:


Results (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx=&section=results)

October 12, 2010

We now have 439 members - 324 men and 115 women. We have yDNA results for 292 of the men. (Three kits do not have test results yet and twenty-nine male members' paternal lines are not Sicilian or they're not testing their yDNA.) We also have mtDNA results for 189 project members.

As you can see, fifty-two of our members have full 67 marker results and seventy-four have 37 marker results. Also, 148 members have gotten an SNP test to verify their haplogroup.

Partial list of Ancestral Towns (Province) of Project Members

Aciereale (Catania)
Acquaviva (Caltanisetta)
Adrano (Catania)
Agira (Enna)
Aidone (Enna)
Alcamo (Trapani)
Alcara Li Fusi (Messina)
Alia (Palermo)
Alimena (Palermo)
Allesandria della Rocca (Agrigento)
Altavilla Milicia (Palermo)
Augusta (Siracusa)
Avola (Siracusa)
Bagheria (Palermo)
Balestrate (Palermo)
Barcellona Pozzo di Gotto (Messina)
Barrafranca (Enna)
Baucina (Palermo)
Belpasso (Catania)
Bisacquino (Palermo)
Bivona (Agrigento)
Bolognetta (Palermo)
Bronte (Palermo)
Burgio (Agrigento)
Calamonaci (Agrigento)
Calatabiano (Catania)
Caltabellotta (Agrigento)
Caltanisetta (Caltanisetta)
Caltagirone (Catania)
Cammarata (Agrigento)
Campobello di Mazara (Trapani)
Campofelice di Fitalia (Palermo)
Campofelice di Roccella (Palermo)
Campofiorito (Palermo)
Canicattini Bagni (Siracusa)
Carini (Palermo)
Carlentini (Siracusa)
Caronia (Messina)
Cassibile (Siracusa)
Castelbuono (Palermo)
Casteldaccia (Palermo)
Castellammare del Golfo (Trapani)
Castelmola (Messina)
Castelvetrano (Trapani)
Castiglione di Sicilia (Catania)
Castronovo di Sicilia (Palermo)
Catania (Catania)
Cattolica Eraclea (Agrigento)
Cefala Diana (Palermo)
Cefalu (Palermo)
Cerami (Enna)
Cerda (Palermo)
Chiusa Sclafani (Palermo)
Cinisi (Palermo)
Collesano (Palermo)
Comiso (Ragusa)
Comitini (Agrigento)
Corleone (Palermo)
Contessa Entellina (Palermo)
Enna (Enna)
Erice (Trapani)
Falcone (Messina)
Favara (Agrigento)
Ferla (Siracusa)
Ficarazzi (Palermo)
Fiumedinisi (Messina)
Floridia (Siracusa)
Forza d'Agrò (Messina)
Francavilla di Sicilia (Messina)
Furnari (Messina)
Gangi (Palermo)
Gibellina (Trapani)
Giuliana (Palermo)
Godrano (Palermo)
Gratteri (Palermo)
Grotte (Agrigento)
Isnello (Palermo)
Lentini (Siracusa)
Leonforte (Enna)
Lipari Islands (Messina)
Longi (Messina)
Lucca Sicula (Agrigento)
Marianopoli (Caltanisetta)
Marineo (Palermo)
Marsala (Trapani)
Mascali (Catania)
Mazzarone (Catania)
Menfi (Agrigento)
Messina (Messina)
Mezzojuso (Palermo)
Milazzo (Messina)
Milici (Messina)
Militello in Val di Catania (Catania)
Misilmeri (Palermo)
Mistretta (Messina)
Monreale (Palermo)
Montalbano Elicona - Santa Maria frazione (Messina)
Montedoro (Caltanissetta)
Montemaggiore Belsito (Palermo)
Montevago (Agrigento)
Motta D'Affermo (Messina)
Naro (Agrigento)
Nicosia (Enna)
Nicolosi (Catania)
Novara (Messina)
Oliveri (Messina)
Pace del Mela (Messina)
Pagliara (Messina)
Palazzo Adriano (Palermo)
Palazzolo Acreide (Siracusa)
Palermo (Palermo)
Partanna (Trapani)
Partinico (Palermo)
Paterno (Catania)
Patti (Messina)
Petralia Soprano (Palermo)
Piana degli Albanesi (Palermo)
Piedimonte Etneo (Catania)
Poggioreale (Trapani)
Polizzi Generosa (Palermo)
Porticello (Palermo)
Pozzallo (Ragusa)
Priolo Gargallo (Siracusa)
Racalmuto (Agrigento)
Raccuja (Messina)
Ragusa (Ragusa)
Randazzo (Catania)
Ribera (Agrigento)
Riesi (Caltanisetta)
Roccalumera (Messina)
Roccamena (Palermo)
Rometta (Messina)
Sambuca di Sicilia (Agrigento)
San Cataldo (Caltanissetta)
San Cipirello (Palermo)
San Fratello (Messina)
San Giuseppe Jato (Palermo)
Sant' Alfio (Catania)
Sant' Angelo di Brola (Messina)
Sant' Elia (Palermo)
Santa Caterina Villarmosa (Caltanissetta)
Santa Cristina Gela (Palermo)
Santa Croce Camerina (Ragusa)
Santa Domenica Vittoria (Messina)
Santa Flavia (Palermo)
Santa Margherita di Belice (Agrigento)
Santa Ninfa (Trapani)
Santa Teresa di Riva (Messina)
Santo Stefano di Camastra (Messina)
Santo Stefano Quisquina (Agrigento)
Saponara (Messina)
Savoca (Messina)
Sciacca (Agrigento)
Sciara (Palermo)
Scicli (Ragusa)
Serradifalca (Caltanissetta)
Siracusa (Siracusa)
Sommatino (Caltanissetta)
Spadafora - San Martino quartiere (Messina)
Termini Imerese (Palermo)
Terrasini (Palermo)
Torregrotta (Messina)
Tortorici (Messina)
Trabia (Palermo)
Trapani (Trapani)
Tripi (Messina)
Troina (Enna)
Valguarnera Caropepe (Enna)
Valledolmo (Palermo)
Venetico (Messina)
Ventimiglia di Sicilia (Palermo)
Villafranca Tirrena (Messina)
Villafrati (Palermo)
Villalba (Caltanisetta)
Villarosa (Enna)
Vita (Trapani)
Vittoria (Ragusa)

yDNA Haplogroups

Haplogroups for members are based on Family Tree DNA prediction, based on comparison of the haplotypes to their database, plus SNP testing for about half the results. For more information on haplogroups, consult the ISOGG 2008 haplogroup tree. (This haplogroup tree is more up to date than that used by FTDNA, so there may be a slight difference in FTDNA's designation and that of ISOGG.)


A - 1 (0.3%)
E1a1 -1 (0.3)
E1b1b - 58 (18.1)
G/G2a - 38 (11.9)
I1 - 7 (2.2)
I2a - 6 (1.9)
I2b - 10 (3.1)
J1 - 10 (3.1)
J2 - 76 (23.8)
L - 1 (0.3)
Q - 1 (0.3)
R1a1 - 13 (4.1)
R1b1b1 - 1 (0.3)
R1b1b2 - 88 (27.5)
T - 9 (2.8)

Because of Sicily's position in the middle of the Mediterranean, located centrally between Europe, the eastern Mediterranean/Near East and North Africa, there is a wide range of haplogroups among the results of project members. This is due to many different ethnic groups and nationalities from these areas playing a role in Sicily's history. Taking haplogroups E1b1b, G/G2a, J1, J2 and T, plus a few eastern origin R1b1b2, to represent those haplogroups with deep ancestry in the Near East, Greece/the Balkans and North Africa, 202 members (63.1%) are in paternal lines that originate in the Mediterranean area. Most of the rest of the members, 113 (35.3%) belong to haplogroups with a more continental European deep ancestry. There are 5 members (1.6%), in haplogroups A, E1a1, L, Q and R1b1b1, whose deep ancestry is outside both Europe and the Mediterranean area.

[rapunzels tower]

Those results are exactly as I'd have expected :) Thank you. Let me know when the map feature is enabled.

[Humanist]

Those results are exactly as I'd have expected :) Thank you. Let me know when the map feature is enabled.

Hi, rapunzels. It may never be enabled. It is up to the Project Admin, Mike Maddi. :) He is a frequent poster over at DNA-Forums.

[rapunzels tower]

Hi, rapunzels. It may never be enabled. It is up to the Project Admin, Mike Maddi. :) He is a frequent poster over at DNA-Forums.


I'd be interested to see the results. I've also seen that regardless of haplogroups, Sicilians are as a whole largely similar genetically to one another and most are a mixture of everything. Meaning it'd be hard to find one who is 100% Greek, or Roman, or Arab etc.

Is there a test to just test your paternal haplogroup? I have no money to spend $400 on 23andme. :lol:

[Humanist]

I'd be interested to see the results. I've also seen that regardless of haplogroups, Sicilians are as a whole largely similar genetically to one another and most are a mixture of everything. Meaning it'd be hard to find one who is 100% Greek, or Roman, or Arab etc.

Is there a test to just test your paternal haplogroup? I have no money to spend $400 on 23andme. :lol:

Yup. $139 (last I checked) for a 37 marker Y-DNA at FTDNA tested through a project. There is also a $99 12 marker available through a project, but that is not very cost effective.

[rapunzels tower]

Yup. $139 (last I checked) for a 37 marker Y-DNA at FTDNA tested through a project. There is also a $99 12 marker available through a project, but that is not very cost effective.


And this will just tell me my y-DNA haplogroup? I couldn't even begin to guess which of the ones I guessed it probably is.

[Humanist]

And this will just tell me my y-DNA haplogroup? I couldn't even begin to guess which of the ones I guessed it probably is.

Technically, your STR marker values. From your particular values, a haplogroup most likely will be assigned. If it is not possible to predict your haplogroup with 100% confidence based on your marker values, they will test your sample for haplogroup identifying SNPs at no additional cost. Subclade testing, however, is extra.

[rapunzels tower]

Technically, your STR marker values. From your particular values, a haplogroup most likely will be assigned. If it is not possible to predict your haplogroup with 100% confidence based on your marker values they will test your sample for haplogroup identifying SNPs at no additional cost. Subclade testing, however, is extra.


And these values will reflect paternal ancestry, then? I already know my mtdna (H), since my mom did 23andme but I didn't do it, since she was afraid at first for me to send my DNA away and said she'd feel safer if she did it. She tends to worry a bit.


I don't think I posted my father here. This is him, by the way, with my mother. He's very Mediterranean looking I think. Do you think he fits in with the photos in this thread, despite being 1/4 Corsican?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh54/michaelm0rphin3/DSCF2206.jpg

[rapunzels tower]

Here's another contribution to the thread; this girl almost looks more northern Italian or Central European, with a definite Alpine influence.

[Mike the Jedi]

They have short faces. I personally think that dolichocephalic individual are more attractive.But then agian, I'm bias.

That's not what brachycephalic means. Confusing these technical terms is common among greenhorns, so let me clarify what these terms actually mean and nip this oft-perceived misconception right in the bud.

"Brachycephalic" means short-headed, not short-faced. "-Cephalic" has to do with the head; "-prosopic" with the face. The head and face are very different things in anthropometry.

When talking about cephalic index, forget the face. It doesn't matter. The actual head itself (the part surrounding the brain) is what's important. The difference between cranial index and cephalic index is that the former deals with the dry skull while the latter accounts for the fleshy material surrounding it. The devil is in the details there, but both have to do with the head and not the face.

The length of the head is the distance between the glabella and the most protuding spot on the back of the head. The width is the distance between the head's two widest points (the "euryons" of the parietal bones). Note then that the relationship between head length and width can only be easily viewed from above. Anywho, dividing the width by the length and multiplying by 100 gives you the cephalic index. If the resulting number is greater than 81.1, the specimen is brachycephalic (short-headed). If the index is less than 75.9, the specimen is dolichocephalic (long-headed). If the index falls in between these two, the head is considered mesocephalic (middle-headed). Those ranges apply only to males; the ranges deciding whether a female is dolicho-, brachy-, or mesocephalic are slightly different.

To determine the facial (prosopic) index, you only measure the scientific face, which does not include the forehead. The facial height is the distance between the nasion and the bottom of the chin. The facial/bizygomatic breadth is the distance between the widest parts of the face (the zygomatics [cheekbones]). Dividing the height by the breadth and then multiplying by 100 gives you the facial index. An index under 84 makes ones euryprosopic (wide-faced), over 87.9 renders one leptoprosopic (narrow-faced), and anything in between earns one the mesoprosopic (middle-faced) label. Again, those are the male ranges.

Head and facial length may correlate, but that's not necessarily the rule. Consider the relatively narrow-faced but short-headed Dinarics, for example.

[rapunzels tower]

That's not what brachycephalic means. Confusing these technical terms is common among greenhorns, so let me clarify what these terms actually mean and nip this oft-perceived misconception right in the bud.

"Brachycephalic" means short-headed, not short-faced. "-Cephalic" has to do with the head; "-prosopic" with the face. The head and face are very different things in anthropometry.

When talking about cephalic index, forget the face. It doesn't matter. The actual head itself (the part surrounding the brain) is what's important. The difference between cranial index and cephalic index is that the former deals with the dry skull while the latter accounts for the fleshy material surrounding it. The devil is in the details there, but both have to do with the head and not the face.

The length of the head is the distance between the glabella and the most protuding spot on the back of the head. The width is the distance between the head's two widest points (the "euryons" of the parietal bones). Note then that the relationship between head length and width can only be easily viewed from above. Anywho, dividing the width by the length and multiplying by 100 gives you the cephalic index. If the resulting number is greater than 81.1, the specimen is brachycephalic (short-headed). If the index is less than 75.9, the specimen is dolichocephalic (long-headed). If the index falls in between these two, the head is considered mesocephalic (middle-headed). Those ranges apply only to males; the ranges deciding whether a female is dolicho-, brachy-, or mesocephalic are slightly different.

To determine the facial (prosopic) index, you only measure the scientific face, which does not include the forehead. The facial height is the distance between the nasion and the bottom of the chin. The facial/bizygomatic breadth is the distance between the widest parts of the face (the zygomatics [cheekbones]). Dividing the height by the breadth and then multiplying by 100 gives you the facial index. An index under 84 makes ones euryprosopic (wide-faced), over 87.9 renders one leptoprosopic (narrow-faced), and anything in between earns one the mesoprosopic (middle-faced) label. Again, those are the male ranges.

Head and facial length may correlate, but that's not necessarily the rule. Consider the relatively narrow-faced but short-headed Dinarics, for example.



This was very helpful, I never knew what most of those terms meant. :lol:

From a Greek perspective, do the pictures in this thread look familiar to you? Would they as a whole look foreign in Greece, or blend in well?

[Mike the Jedi]

I can't speak for Greece since I don't live there, but I don't see why not. They wouldn't look foreign among the Greeks here (mostly from Karpathos), nor in Tarpon Springs a stone's throw away, which is the largest Greek community in the United States.

[rapunzels tower]

I can't speak for Greece since I don't live there, but I don't see why not. They wouldn't look foreign among the Greeks here (mostly from Karpathos), nor in Tarpon Springs a stone's throw away, which is the largest Greek community in the United States.

Ohh. I thought you lived in Greece. :lol: But amongst the Greeks who live here, there are many who do to me look similar to the people pictured here but I was surprised to see a number of Greeks who looked almost Slavic/typical Eastern European when I went to a food festival at the local Greek Orthodox church. But from my understanding most of these would be from the north.

[vanillagorilla]

The Greeks of Magna Graecia were mostly from the Peloponnese (esp. Achaea) and Euboea.

[alfieb]

The Greeks of Magna Graecia were mostly from the Peloponnese (esp. Achaea) and Euboea.

Aye. Corinthians in particular were principal in the founding of the cities in Eastern Sicily.

[gr2001]

Ohh. I thought you lived in Greece. :lol: But amongst the Greeks who live here, there are many who do to me look similar to the people pictured here but I was surprised to see a number of Greeks who looked almost Slavic/typical Eastern European when I went to a food festival at the local Greek Orthodox church. But from my understanding most of these would be from the north.

North is a general term, you can find light featured Greeks everywhere and especially amongst the mountainous villages from the north to Peloponnese, and especially in Central Greece, of course don't make the majority but it showes where is more possible to find them. In Crete the population looks pretty much the same as in mainland Greece, while in Dodecanese people tend to be darker, quite close to Cypriots.

Major Greek migrations to Sicily existed after 6th century AD, most came from mainland Greece. Some returned during 9th century though.

[voyager]

North is a general term, you can find light featured Greeks everywhere and especially amongst the mountainous villages from the north to Peloponnese, and especially in Central Greece, of course don't make the majority but it showes where is more possible to find them. In Crete the population looks pretty much the same as in mainland Greece, while in Dodecanese people tend to be darker, quite close to Cypriots.

Major Greek migrations to Sicily existed after 6th century AD, most came from mainland Greece. Some returned during 9th century though.


Interesting.
Are the Dorian-derived Sphakiots of western Crete not a tall, relatively light group of people but Borreby/Dinaric like Montenegrins not Nordic.

[gr2001]

Sphakiots, as a mountain tribe tend to be lighter compared to the general population. We can't be sure about who does resemble the true Dorians, who is mixed etx, as Maniots are also supposed to be descendants of the Dorians/Spartans (It's interesting that they were fully Christianised only by 9th century).

Anyway, some Sphakiots:

[rapunzels tower]

Aye. Corinthians in particular were principal in the founding of the cities in Eastern Sicily.


So would Greek ancestry in western Sicily be a result of Byzantine rule rather than ancient Greek colonization? The article posted a few pages back said that Greek ancestry is spread out throughout the whole island, so how did it get to the west if the ancient Greeks did not establish colonies there?

[alfieb]

So would Greek ancestry in western Sicily be a result of Byzantine rule rather than ancient Greek colonization? The article posted a few pages back said that Greek ancestry is spread out throughout the whole island, so how did it get to the west if the ancient Greeks did not establish colonies there?

They did, but Palermo, Trapani, Segesta, etc. weren't founded by the Greeks but rather the Elymians and the Phoenicians. They were eventually Hellenized nonetheless.

[Sohigh!!!]

Anyway, some Sphakiots:

These dudes shouldn't eat so much Gyros.

[gr2001]

They did, but Palermo, Trapani, Segesta, etc. weren't founded by the Greeks but rather the Elymians and the Phoenicians. They were eventually Hellenized nonetheless.

Greek and Phoenican colonies:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg

Aren't Elymians supposed to be Anatolians by origin and SIcani Iberans?

alfieb is right because Panormus (Palermo) is a Greek name, so it's name was probably Hellenized.

[alfieb]

Aye. Ziz was the Punic name for Palermo, which was later Hellenized by the Greeks who dominated the centre and the east of the Island. When the Romans kicked the Carthaginians out, there was a vacuum in the West and it was filled by Greeks, or at the very least Hellenized Sicilians of mixed descent. Greek was the lingua franca of Sicily until after the Norman conquest.

Elymians were supposedly from Anatolia, Sicani from Catalonia, and Sicels a tribe from Italy.

[rapunzels tower]

Aye. Ziz was the Punic name for Palermo, which was later Hellenized by the Greeks who dominated the centre and the east of the Island. When the Romans kicked the Carthaginians out, there was a vacuum in the West and it was filled by Greeks, or at the very least Hellenized Sicilians of mixed descent. Greek was the lingua franca of Sicily until after the Norman conquest.

Elymians were supposedly from Anatolia, Sicani from Catalonia, and Sicels a tribe from Italy.

Ohh okay that makes sense. So eventually Greek genes became more evenly spread out, then other groups came and other influences were added. I know the Romans did not make any attempts to settle the island in large numbers or Latinize the people.

[vanillagorilla]

So would Greek ancestry in western Sicily be a result of Byzantine rule rather than ancient Greek colonization? The article posted a few pages back said that Greek ancestry is spread out throughout the whole island, so how did it get to the west if the ancient Greeks did not establish colonies there?

The Greeks had colonies in the southwest (Akragas and Selinous); they were settled by colonists from the southeastern cities of Gela and Megara Hyblaea respectively (in the latter case, they were accompanied by people from the mainland city of Megara).

[rapunzels tower]

The Greeks had colonies in the southwest (Akragas and Selinous); they were settled by colonists from the southeastern cities of Gela and Megara Hyblaea respectively (in the latter case, they were accompanied by people from the mainland city of Megara).


So it sounds like eventually, Greeks were living on all parts of the island, and then other groups came later.

[vanillagorilla]

Not too many Greeks in the interior during the Archaic and early Classical period; by the time of the Roman conquest the Sicels and Sicans had been mostly Hellenized.

[rapunzels tower]

Not too many Greeks in the interior during the Archaic and early Classical period; by the time of the Roman conquest the Sicels and Sicans had been mostly Hellenized.

Do you think that y-dna J2 in western Sicily today might be from the Phoenicians in part as well as Greeks? I know that due to more northern influences via the Normans and northern Italians brought R1b there.

[alfieb]

I believe so. Tunisia (Carthage) has similar levels of J to that of Sicily. Lebanon, where the Phoenicians originated, has even higher numbers.

[rapunzels tower]

I believe so. Tunisia (Carthage) has similar levels of J to that of Sicily. Lebanon, where the Phoenicians originated, has even higher numbers.

One study has y-dna J2 at about 33% in western Sicily and higher in the east (closer to 40%).

[alfieb]

While that doesn't make all that much sense to me, it isn't entirely implausible. At their peak, Carthaginians occupied all of Sicily except for Syracuse.

J2 isn't found in Berber populations at all, but it is in Arabs... so the J2 could be from the Greeks, from the century of Arab domination circa 1000 AD, and/or from Carthaginian rule circa 300 BC.

[rapunzels tower]

While that doesn't make much sense to me, it isn't entirely implausible. At their peak, Carthaginians occupied all of Sicily except for Syracuse.

J2 isn't found in Berber populations at all, but it is in Arabs... so the J2 could be from the Greeks, from the century of Arab domination circa 1000 AD, and/or from Carthaginian rule circa 300 BC.


Why doesn't it make sense to you?

[alfieb]

E1b is more common than J in Greece, especially in the Peloponnese where Greco-Sicilians originated.

[rapunzels tower]

E1b is more common than J in Greece, especially in the Peloponnese where Greco-Sicilians originated.


In that case J2 in Sicily is probably due to the Phoenicians, Arabs, or Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent moreso than from the Greeks.

[alfieb]

Well, Greece is still about 20% J2 from my recollection, so some of it probably came from Greeks, but still don't see why there would be more in the East than in the West which was more heavily populated by Carthaginians and Arabs.

[rapunzels tower]

Well, Greece is still about 20% J2 from my recollection, so some of it probably came from Greeks, but still don't see why there would be more in the East than in the West which was more heavily populated by Carthaginians and Arabs.

Because the Normans and Germanic groups had more impact in the west than the east (contributing R1b and I) as well as the Sicanians who were from Iberia who would've been R1b. Had those groups never been there, J2 would probably be more frequent than 33-35% and higher than in the east.

[alfieb]

I suppose.

But Sardinia also has a very high number of I... to the point that I think it was the predominant haplogroup there... and Sardinia was never colonized by Germanic peoples, that I can remember.

[rapunzels tower]

I suppose.

But Sardinia has a very high number of I... to the point that I think it was the predominant haplogroup there... and Sardinia was never colonized by Germanic peoples, that I can remember.


Hmm. I don't know then. :(

What I do know is, while it's said that Germanic and continental Western European ancestry is higher in the west than the east, I can't see it in people's appearances, so the genes must be there but the eastern Med look predominates.

[gr2001]

E1b is more common than J in Greece, especially in the Peloponnese where Greco-Sicilians originated.

The first settlers though were Ionians from Euboea, Naxos is one of their colonies.

[sephiroth2099]

I suppose.

But Sardinia also has a very high number of I... to the point that I think it was the predominant haplogroup there... and Sardinia was never colonized by Germanic peoples, that I can remember.

Sardinian HG I has nothing to do with Germanic HG I, they are 2 completly different HG's...HG I present in Sardinia is mainly only present in mediterranean regions, especially in Sardinia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc. This HG I has nothing to do with Nordic Germanic nations.

[vanillagorilla]

The first settlers though were Ionians from Euboea, Naxos is one of their colonies.

True. Messina, my ancestral home, also was founded by Euboeans (it was called Zankle because the harbor is shaped like a sickle-"zanklon" in Greek).

[alfieb]

The first settlers though were Ionians from Euboea, Naxos is one of their colonies.

Fair point. I actually spent a week at the Sicilian Giardini-Naxos (Giaddini-Nassu in Sicilian language). It was supposedly the first Greek settlement in Sicily, but the entire town was depopulated by the Siracusans and replaced with Dorians, before eventually being destroyed following the Athenian invasion of Syracuse.

Catania and Lentini were also Ionian originally, but they shared similar fates. I'm pretty sure Catania was resettled by Dorians as well.

[rapunzels tower]

True. Messina, my ancestral home, also was founded by Euboeans (it was called Zankle because the harbor is shaped like a sickle-"zanklon" in Greek).

One of my great-grandmothers is from Messina as well. :D Her surname was Costanzo, not sure if that's a common one or not.

[alfieb]

It's actually far more frequent in Catania, interestingly enough. Your family probably moved to Messina.

[rapunzels tower]

It's actually far more frequent in Catania, interestingly enough. Your family probably moved to Messina.

Interesting. That could be a possibility, as I'm sure people did move about. Is that name more frequent in the east or west of Sicily?

[alfieb]

East, by a large margin.

Also found in decent numbers in Rome, Milan, and parts of Calabria.

[rapunzels tower]

East, by a large margin.

Also found in decent numbers in Rome, Milan, and parts of Calabria.


I'll have to find a picture of her.. she looks nothing like anyone else in the family. Blue eyes, light skin, but she has a prominent nose.

[Humanist]

Here's another contribution to the thread; this girl almost looks more northern Italian or Central European, with a definite Alpine influence.

Is she a friend of yours too? :thumbsup:

[rapunzels tower]

Is she a friend of yours too? :thumbsup:

No. Her sister is friends with my friend.

Her sister and her look nothing alike, here is the sister. Not sure what part of Sicily they're from but their surname is Donato.

[Humanist]

No. Her sister is friends with my friend.

Her sister and her look nothing alike, here is the sister. Not sure what part of Sicily they're from but their surname is Donato.

Are they from NY? :D JK. The other one reminds me of an ex. Half Italian-Half German girl.

[alfieb]

I believe Donato has Calabrese origins originally, but it's very common in Messina, and found elsewhere in Sicily. She looks Sicilian.

[rapunzels tower]

The other one reminds me of an ex. Half Italian-Half German girl.

I know a half Irish, half Cape Verdean girl who looks similar to her as well.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 17:19 ----------


She looks Sicilian.


Agreed. Even if I didn't know, that's exactly where I'd place her.

[Humanist]

I believe Donato has Calabrese origins originally, but it's very common in Messina, and found elsewhere in Sicily. She looks Sicilian.

My most recent ex was Calabrese. :eek:

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 13:21 ----------


I know a half Irish, half Cape Verdean girl who looks similar to her as well.[COLOR="Silver"]



She had a bit of English in her as well. Full half Italian however.

[alfieb]

Well, Calabrese people speak Sicilian and have, for the most part, the same ethnic background as Eastern Sicilians... save for the Semitic influences.

My grandmother's surname, for instance, is of Greek origins but is only found in two towns in Italy. We apparently came from Calabria hundreds and hundreds of years ago to a remote town in the Sicilian mountains. :lol:

[rapunzels tower]

She had a bit of English in her as well. Full half Italian however.


Southern Italian I'm guessing. You won't find people who look like that in the north or center.

[Humanist]

Southern Italian I'm guessing. You won't find people who look like that in the north or center.

DiMarco. :)

[rapunzels tower]

here's another at least part sicilian.

[rapunzels tower]

DiMarco. :)


Comes from Messina then :) I was right.

[Humanist]

A first cousin:

Half S. Italian/Sicilian - Half Assyrian.

[alfieb]

DiMarco (with no space) is a Sicilian name. Di Marco with a space can be found throughout Italy, but mostly in Sicilia and Abbruzzu.

[rapunzels tower]

A first cousin:

Half S. Italian/Sicilian - Half Assyrian.


As Assyrians and Sicilians don't as a whole look drastically different, she could pass for 100% of either one. What did you think of the last girl I just posted on this page?

[Humanist]

As Assyrians and Sicilians don't as a whole look drastically different, she could pass for 100% of either one. What did you think of the last girl I just posted on this page?

She reminds me of a Bulgarian girl I knew from college. Another nice one. :)

I come from Massapequa, Long Island, by the way. Also known as Massapizza! Former home of Carlo Gambino and members of Mario Puzo's family, among other notable Italians and Sicilians.

[rapunzels tower]

Here's another, she looks Anatolian to me. The guy in the other pic, her brother, looks more western European than she does. Both 100% Sicilian.

[alfieb]

Hmph. Neither look Sicilian to me, either.

[rapunzels tower]

What would you have thought they were?

Their surname is Cataldo btw. Not related to me, although my great grandmother's mother's maiden name was Cataldo.

[Humanist]

Here's another, she looks Anatolian to me. The guy in the other pic, her brother, looks more western European than she does. Both 100% Sicilian.

Anatolian, really? She would fit in among the folks in my Italian/Sicilian neighborhood fine.

[rapunzels tower]

Anatolian, really? She would fit in among the folks in my Italian/Sicilian neighborhood fine.


Just so you know almost all of the "Italian" people you know are probably Sicilians or Calabrese so it's no wonder the people I am posting, will look like them. :thumbsup:


Although for some odd reason I think Sicilian Americans are more western looking as a whole in features than their relatives back on the island.

[Humanist]

Just so you know almost all of the "Italian" people you know are probably Sicilians or Calabrese so it's no wonder the people I am posting, will look like them. :thumbsup:

Where are you from?

[alfieb]

Yeah, there are very, very few Northern Italians in NYC. Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans are just about all you'll find. Growing up there, I felt very much at home. :p

[rapunzels tower]

Yeah, there are very, very few Northern Italians in NYC. Sicilians, Calabrese, Neapolitans are just about all you'll find. Growing up there, I felt very much at home. :p


Sicilians, Calabrese, and Neapolitans are pretty similar looking as a whole. Once you go much more north than that, the people start to look different. For instance, Giada de Laurentiis looks like none of my relatives nor any of my Italian American friends. :lol:

And I'm from New England .

[Humanist]

And I'm from New England .

Thanks.

[rapunzels tower]

Thanks.

I'd go so far as to say that at least 3/4 of the Italian Americans here, are Sicilian.

[alfieb]

The De Laurentiis family come from Abbruzzu, so they'd still be considered Southern, even if they don't have much Greek ancestry. Then again they're nobili, and the nobility are often more pale+Western European looking.

Since you brought up TV chefs, though, the most Sicilian-looking would probably be Rachael Ray, but she's from NY and half Sicilian so that's no shocker.

[Humanist]

Sicilians, Calabrese, and Neapolitans are pretty similar looking as a whole. Once you go much more north than that, the people start to look different. For instance, Giada de Laurentiis looks like none of my relatives nor any of my Italian American friends. :lol:


My best bud growing up was Baresi. Blue eyes, reddish brown hair, alabaster skin tone.

[rapunzels tower]

The De Laurentiis family come from Abbruzzu, so they'd still be considered Southern, even if they don't have much Greek ancestry. Then again they're nobili, and the nobility are often more pale+Western European looking.

Since you brought up TV chefs, though, the most Sicilian-looking would probably be Rachael Ray, but she's from NY and half Sicilian so that's no shocker.


I think that people from places where the population is significantly of Greek ancestry (basically Campania, Calabria, Apulia, and Sicily) look noticeably different than people from Abruzzo and Molise and north of that, although there are similarities as well.


Rachael Ray is just unattractive and fat. :lol:

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 18:10 ----------


My best bud growing up was Baresi. Blue eyes, reddish brown hair, alabaster skin tone.

Well obviously there will be exceptions to every rule. Apulia does have a significant minority of people with blue eyes though, compared to the rest of the south. They're the lightest southerners.

[alfieb]

:mad:

I happen to think Rachael Ray is very hot for a middle aged woman.

http://www.icantbelievetheydidthat.com/Rachel%20Ray/Rachel_Ray_FHM_Shoot2.jpg
http://media-files.gather.com/images/d894/d548/d745/d224/d96/f3/full.jpg
http://s2.hubimg.com/u/873929_f520.jpg

She reflects well upon our people, imo. Even if she is a tad annoying.

[Humanist]

Well obviously there will be exceptions to every rule. Apulia does have a significant minority of people with blue eyes though, compared to the rest of the south. They're the lightest southerners.

I was not stating his details as an example of an exception to what you stated. Forgive me for including your quotation in my reply.

[alfieb]

Oh, and you left out Basilicata. Not to nitpick. Everyone does. I don't know why they even exist. :lol:

[rapunzels tower]

:mad:

I happen to think Rachael Ray is very hot for a middle aged woman.

http://www.icantbelievetheydidthat.com/Rachel%20Ray/Rachel_Ray_FHM_Shoot2.jpg
http://media-files.gather.com/images/d894/d548/d745/d224/d96/f3/full.jpg
http://s2.hubimg.com/u/873929_f520.jpg

She reflects well upon our people, imo. Even if she is a tad annoying.


Personally I think she looks SLIGHTLY negroid, she's probably part Creole on her dad's side and doesn't tell it. :lol:

And I did leave out Basilicata. Oops :o But I stand by what I said - the places with Greek influence look distinct from those that don't. The average person from Molise does not look like an average Sicilian or Calabrese.

[alfieb]

That's because they're Italian and Siculo-Calabrians are Sicilian.

When non-Latin origins make up for the majority of your blood, you aren't the same as your neighbors, regardless of language.

[rapunzels tower]

I was not stating his details as an example of an exception to what you stated. Forgive me for including your quotation in my reply.


:lol: It's ok. But for some reason Apulia is the lightest region in the south. More northern influence perhaps.

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 18:17 ----------


That's because they're Italian and Siculo-Calabrians are Sicilian.

People from Molise and north have a very traditional "Italic" appearance that I couldn't mistake for anything else, a look that is less common the further from the center of Italy you go.

[rapunzels tower]

Alfieb - where would you place this guy? He's Italian/Irish. People have said we look alike :lol:

[alfieb]

As for why Puglese are lighter-skinned than the rest of us, for starters they weren't part of Magna Graecia, instead they were inhabited by the Iapyges... moreover they also took in more Albanian refugees than Calabria, Sicily, or Campania, so they likely have more recent Balkan admixture.

Your friend has notable Celtic features, such as his rounder face. It's hard to tell with Italian-Irish mixtures because even pure Irish can be rather swarthy and Mediterranean-looking... but I'd lean towards the South.

[rapunzels tower]

As for why Puglese are lighter-skinned than the rest of us, for starters they weren't part of Magna Graecia, instead they were inhabited by the Iapyges... moreover they also took in more Albanian refugees than Calabria, Sicily, or Campania, so they likely have more recent Balkan admixture.


They weren't part of Magna Graecia? That's weird, given they are geographically close to Greece and you'd think the Greeks wouldn't have skipped over them. :lol:

---------- Post added 2010-10-16 at 18:23 ----------



Your friend has notable Celtic features, such as his rounder face. It's hard to tell with Italian-Irish mixtures because even pure Irish can be rather swarthy and Mediterranean-looking... but I'd lean towards the South.


I don't know him all that well but we work at the same place and customers have gotten us mixed up.

[alfieb]

They were Byzantine for many centuries just the same, so I'm sure they have Greek heritage as well, but yeah, in ancient times they were ruled by the Messapians.

Bari, Brindisi, Otranto, Lecce, etc. were all founded by the Iapyges.

[rapunzels tower]

This map shows it pretty well.

Code;

Purple - Ligures
Brown - Veneti
Pink - Etruscans
Blue - Picenum
Light Green - Umbrians
Gold - Latins
Dark green - Osci
Orange - Messapii
Yellow - Greeks

[alfieb]

It's a bit of a lie, though, as at that time there were Carthaginians in Western Sicily. Aside from that it's accurate to some extent.

[gr2001]

What's interesting is that even after the Latinisation of south Italy, Greeks continue to migrate in Italy, especially after the Ottoman conquest of Peloponesse around 15-17th century.

During 15th century Epirotans/Albanians move to Otranto and found villages like Mezzojuso in Sicily. At 16th century the Coronians and other Peloponessians inhabit various parts of South Italy, also Maniots migrate along with their vendettas during 17th century to Apulia and other places, I guess most Greeks assimilated though, while few returned back later.

One of the most famous Greek poets was born in Lefkada island (I'm 1/4 Lefkadian) is Angelos SIkelianos. He took his surname from his Sicilian father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelos_Sikelianos

[rapunzels tower]

What's interesting is that even after the Latinisation of south Italy, Greeks continue to migrate in Italy, especially after the Ottoman conquest of Peloponesse around 15-17th century.

What parts of the island did they go to do you know?

[gr2001]

Around Messina and Palermo, mostly.

[alfieb]

During 15th century Epirotans/Albanians move to Otranto and found villages like Mezzojuso in Sicily. At 16th century the Coronians and other Peloponessians inhabit various parts of South Italy, also Maniots migrate along with their vendettas during 17th century to Apulia and other places, I guess most Greeks assimilated though, while few returned back later.

While true, they were Albanian Christian followers of Skanderbeg. Mezzojuso is an Arbereshe village, as is the larger nearby town Piana degli Albanesi.

The Sicilians called them Greeks at the time, but only because of their religion, not their language.

[vanillagorilla]

I know about the Maniots migrating to Corsica, but not about them in southern Italy.
There were a few actual Greeks (f.e. the famous astronomer and mathematician Francesco Maurolico was descended from Greeks who emigrated to Messina around the time of the fall of Constantinople).

[gr2001]

True, actually, this is another type of migration, mostly upper class Greeks from Constantinople moved towards Italy and other places in Europe or Russia.

However many Greek scholars went to Italy years before the fall of the Empire. Some of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Chrysoloras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodorus_Gaza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gemistos_Plethon

More here (before or after the fall of Constantinople):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

[vanillagorilla]

True, actually, this is another type of migration, mostly upper class Greeks from Constantinople moved towards Italy and other places in Europe or Russia.

However many Greek scholars went to Italy years before the fall of the Empire. Some of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Chrysoloras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodorus_Gaza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gemistos_Plethon

More here (before or after the fall of Constantinople):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

Certainly knew about that- I have always had an interest in Byzantine (East Roman) history. These guys were very influential.

[alfieb]

They most certainly were.

Everyone thinks the Palaiologos dynasty (Byzantine Empire) died out in 1453 but the truth is that an Italian branch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rulers_of_Montferrat) survived until 1533. :lol:

[rapunzels tower]

Here are some more.

[alfieb]

That last one looks Mulatta. Cute, but still.

[rapunzels tower]

I don't see it. Only the hair but I've seen caucasians with her hair texture.

[alfieb]

I dunno, the forehead/eyes area look different from people I've seen in Sicily.

[windmill]

from the last pics you posted up, they can easily blend in places like venezuela

[rapunzels tower]

from the last pics you posted up, they can easily blend in places like venezuela


Venezuela is largely triracial and mestizo though. I think they'd pass better in Cuba or Puerto Rico if you had to choose somewhere new world.

[windmill]

Venezuela is largely triracial and mestizo though. I think they'd pass better in Cuba or Puerto Rico if you had to choose somewhere new world.

yea probaly but of course im just basing myself on the venezuelan diaspora here

[rapunzels tower]

yea probaly but of course im just basing myself on the venezuelan diaspora here

I don't really see it but that's just me. Some of them might look like people from Spain, though.

[Ducheff]

Gabriela Spanic, from Venezuela

30833

[alfieb]

Her Wiki says nothing about being Sicilian. :confused:

[rapunzels tower]

She's of Croatian and British descent.

[Ducheff]

Her Wiki says nothing about being Sicilian. :confused:

Shakira is part Sicilian, by the way.

And there was a large Italian immigration to Venezuela during the 1950s and 1960s, mostly Southern Italian and Sicilian. Just google it.

[alfieb]

Shakira is part Sicilian, by the way.

And there was a large Italian immigration to Venezuela during the 1950s and 1960s, mostly Southern Italian and Sicilian. Just google it.

Yeah, I know. Shakira is Lebanese, Sicilian, and Catalan, or something to that effect.

[rapunzels tower]

Shakira definitely looks more Lebanese or Sicilian than she looks Colombian mestiza.

[Ducheff]

Shakira definitely looks more Lebanese or Sicilian than she looks Colombian mestiza.

Because she ain't mestiza :evilgrin:

Here a video of Shakira before plastic surgery, singing a song about Africa in Brazilian Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snOasQI8giI

[rapunzels tower]

Because she ain't mestiza :evilgrin:

Here a video of Shakira before plastic surgery, singing a song about Africa in Brazilian Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snOasQI8giI


When I think of a typical Latin American I think of a mestizo or a mulatto (depending on what country we're talking) with exception to Argentina and Spain so I never think any European looks 'Hispanic'. :lol:

[alfieb]

Because she ain't mestiza :evilgrin:

Here a video of Shakira before plastic surgery, singing a song about Africa in Brazilian Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snOasQI8giI

Yeah, while Colombia is majority Mestizo, I think Shakira is 100% Caucasoid. Her family's only been in Colombia for two generations I believe, and I'm pretty sure her stock is all immigrant.

[rapunzels tower]

Yeah, while Colombia is majority Mestizo, I think Shakira is 100% Caucasoid. Her family's only been in Colombia for two generations I believe, and I'm pretty sure her stock is all immigrant.


She definitely does not look like a mestiza. To be honest, most mestizos look like some sort of bizarre Hapa/Eurasian to me.

[Ducheff]

She definitely does not look like a mestiza. To be honest, most mestizos look like some sort of bizarre Hapa/Eurasian to me.

Well, she could pass as Mestizo, with a predominant non-Amerindian admixture.

[rapunzels tower]

Does anyone else sometimes see a mestizo and think they are part East Asian?

[Ducheff]

Does anyone else sometimes see a mestizo and think they are part East Asian?

Well, since Amerindians themselves have roots in Asia, it is not a surprise that some Mestizo look East Asian.

[alfieb]

But the Amerindians are proto-Mongoloid, with the exception of Eskimos.

[rapunzels tower]

I've seen plenty of Mexicans who look part Asian. I don't mean Amerindian looking necessarily either but you'd swear some of them were actually part Japanese.

[alfieb]

Yeah, and it works on the other side of the coin too. There are Asians (usually Filipinos or other Island folks) who get mistaken for Mexicans. :lol:

My half-Filipina cousin moved to South Florida and everyone there thinks she's very Latina.

[Ducheff]

But the Amerindians are proto-Mongoloid, with the exception of Eskimos.

No way. This Brazilian Indian would not be out of place in some Asian areas:

30837


Not all Amerindians look the same, because of adaptions to the environment

[rapunzels tower]

Yeah, and it works on the other side of the coin too. There are Asians (usually Filipinos or other Island folks) who get mistaken for Mexicans. :lol:

My half-Filipina cousin moved to South Florida and everyone there thinks she's very Latina.


I've seen Cambodians who look Mexican, too.

Overall though, Filipinos only look like the heavily Amerindian "Latinos", usually people from the Amazon.

[Aetius]

Shakira definitely looks more Lebanese or Sicilian than she looks Colombian mestiza.
I couldn't tell what she looks like (probably a triracial LatAm with a predominant European ancestry), but definitely her facial traits (especially the kinda flat nose, the eyes) look rather foreign to me.

[Ducheff]

I couldn't tell what she looks like (probably a triracial LatAm with a predominant European ancestry), but definitely her facial traits (especially the kinda flat nose, the eyes) look rather foreign to me.

Shakira if of Lebanese, Sicilian and Catalan descent.

She has no Amerindian or African descent (at least this is what she claims)

[gr2001]

Greek lastnames of Sicily and South Sicily, 10th to 13th century:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13.html

10th-13th century also.

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13_12.html

Greek origin lastnames in the same area today:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/09/blog-post.html

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/10/2_08.html

[rapunzels tower]

Greek lastnames of Sicily and South Sicily, 10th to 13th century:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13.html

10th-13th century also.

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13_12.html

Greek origin lastnames in the same area today:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/09/blog-post.html

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/10/2_08.html


When were Greek last names made to sound more Latin/Italian?

Btw my great grandmother's maiden name (Lipari) is on the list of Greek-origin Sicilian names. Which makes sense given that the surname originally comes from Messina and has to do with Lipari, an island off the coast that was settled by the Greeks.

[alfieb]

Yup, there's a group of islands north of Messina called the Ìsuli Eoli (Aeolian Islands, also known as the Lipari Islands) and the largest of these islands is called Lìpari. It is known as a tourist destination and during the Summer the population of Lipari can swell up to about 25,000.

The settlement was founded by Doric Greeks.

[rapunzels tower]

Yup, there's a group of islands north of Messina called the Ìsuli Eoli (Aeolian Islands, also known as the Lipari Islands) and the largest of these islands is called Lìpari. It is known as a tourist destination and during the Summer the population of Lipari can swell up to about 25,000.

The settlement was founded by Doric Greeks.

Not sure how the name Lipari ended up in Palermo, although that side of my family might have come from further east at some point since the name appears to originate in Messina. My grandfather isn't alive to ask. :(

So my last name is of Latin/Italian origins and my great grandmother's is of Greek origin, now all I have to do is find a family name of Arabic origins and I've covered all bases. :D

[alfieb]

The name isn't necessarily of Latin origins.

It was said to be named after a chieftain named Liparus from Campania, which had by then been colonized by Greek people. However, liparos is a Biblical Greek word derived from the Greek word "lipos" which means greasy.

In the context of the Book of Revelation (18:44) it is used to describe all things that were once good and dainty.

[rapunzels tower]

The name isn't necessarily of Latin origins.

It was said to be named after a chieftain named Liparus from Campania, which had by then been colonized by Greek people. However, liparos is a Biblical Greek word derived from the Greek word "lipos" which means greasy.

In the context of the Book of Revelation (18:44) it is used to describe all things that were once good and dainty.

The word 'lipid' and the root 'lipo' as in liposuction comes from the same root. Lol

It's actually funny because on the Lipari side of my family, you'll find the most traditionally Greek-looking of all my relatives. Like, a few cousins and great uncles. A lot of them have classical Greek noses like you'd see on the old statues.

And which name isn't necessarily of Latin origins? Mine?

[gr2001]

When were Greek last names made to sound more Latin/Italian?

Btw my great grandmother's maiden name (Lipari) is on the list of Greek-origin Sicilian names. Which makes sense given that the surname originally comes from Messina and has to do with Lipari, an island off the coast that was settled by the Greeks.

Probably they got Latinised after 12th-13th century. There are few lastnames in Greece that might be related (Liparis, Liparinis), but I'm not sure for the same reason that alfieb posted.

The previous name of Lipari is Meligunis.

btw there are some funny lastnames, like this one from 12th century:

Ανθρωποφάγος Πέτρος 1183

(Anthropofaghos Petros)

It means man eater-cannibal:lol:

[alfieb]

His name could be translated to "Cannibal Rock"

That's kinda awesome. :lol:

---------- Post added 2010-10-29 at 17:26 ----------


And which name isn't necessarily of Latin origins? Mine?

Lipari.

If the origin theory of being named after a chieftain from Campania is true, his name would have probably been Liparos not Liparus, and thus it would be of Greek origins, even if Lipara wasn't the name of the settlement until the Roman period.

[rapunzels tower]

Speaking of Greece-Sicily connections, take a look at my Halloween costume. I only made it because we were supposed to wear a costume to school this week and whichever grade had the most people who did, got extra points for school spirit week. :lol:

[alfieb]

Yeah, I remember you saying you wanted to dress as a Greek deity and were asking for suggestions. :lol:

I'm too old for elaborate bullshit. I'm going dressed in my work clothes and wearing my friend's name badge. Voila, I'm a Puerto Rican!

[rapunzels tower]

Lipari.

If the origin theory of being named after a chieftain from Campania is true, his name would have probably been Liparos not Liparus, and thus it would be of Greek origins, even if Lipara wasn't the name of the settlement until the Roman period.


I interpreted this as, the name is of Greek origins but the Romans named it after a chieftain from Campania.

---------- Post added 2010-10-29 at 21:33 ----------

http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/A/Auson.html

Read this. Liparus (appears to be the Roman version of Liparos) was thought to be the grandson of Odysseus.

[gr2001]

Speaking of Greece-Sicily connections, take a look at my Halloween costume. I only made it because we were supposed to wear a costume to school this week and whichever grade had the most people who did, got extra points for school spirit week. :lol:

Awesome costume! Next time choose Leonidas :thumbsup:

[alfieb]

Awesome costume! Next time choose Leonidas :thumbsup:

Well, we are Dorians. :p

THIS IS SPARTA!! :mad:

[Kaiku]

alfieb, do you have any actual evidence of being a descendant of the Greeks? ´Cause to me you sound like a wannabe.

[alfieb]

Numerous family surnames that I won't share with you because I have a family tree on the interwebs?

When I posted my classification thread in July before revealing anything about myself, people guessed S. Italian, Greek, Sicilian, etc.

It's hardly a stretch.

[rapunzels tower]

Here are some more pictures of people, mostly friends of people I know on Facebook;

[Kaiku]

So what you can trace your family back a few thousand years? 0_o Sounds pretty flimsy to me, but I guess it´s possible.

[rapunzels tower]

alfieb, do you have any actual evidence of being a descendant of the Greeks? ´Cause to me you sound like a wannabe.

Read any genetic study on Sicily and you'll see something along the lines of, "The greatest contribution to the Sicilian gene pool is that of the ancient Greeks". The chance of a Sicilian having absolutely no Greek ancestry, given their extensive settlement of the island in ancient times, is unlikely.

[Ducheff]

I don't think that Sicilians feel connected to Greece. Most Sicilians do not even know that they may have ancient Greek ancestry.


I think Alfieb is the exception. Maybe because he likes Greece and claims this ancestry.

[alfieb]

You must not have ever been to Sicily.

[rapunzels tower]

]I don't think that Sicilians feel connected to Greece. Most Sicilians do not even know that they may have ancient Greek ancestry.
[/B]

I think Alfieb is the exception. Maybe because he likes Greece and claims this ancestry.


You've got to be kidding. Ancient Greek temples and ruins all over the island? Basic knowledge of their own history? Maybe Americans wouldn't know this but I'd imagine these basics would be taught in Sicilian schools.

[Kaiku]

Read any genetic study on Sicily and you'll see something along the lines of, "The greatest contribution to the Sicilian gene pool is that of the ancient Greeks". The chance of a Sicilian having absolutely no Greek ancestry, given their extensive settlement of the island in ancient times, is unlikely.

Well duh, but I just find it a little funny that an an American of Italian descent would identify with some random ancient Greek settlers.

[rapunzels tower]

Well duh, but I just find it a little funny that an an American of Italian descent would identify with some random ancient Greek settlers.


Why shouldn't we? They are our ancestors. Keep in mind though, this doesn't mean we call ourselves Greek.. we don't. We are Sicilians first and foremost.

[alfieb]

1. My parents are from Sicily.
2. My ancestors are from Greece.
3. For 2,000 years, Sicily was part of the Hellenic world, until around 1200 AD when the Greek language and religion were replaced with Latin ones.

There are many examples of Sicilians playing off of their Greek heritage.

The top football club in the Province of Agrigento uses the colors of the Greek flag and uses the former Greek name of their city. We don't see ourselves as Greek anymore... because we lost our religion and our language... but that does not make us someone else. We are Sicilians.

[gr2001]

I don't think that Sicilians feel connected to Greece. Most Sicilians do not even know that they may have ancient Greek ancestry.


I think Alfieb is the exception. Maybe because he likes Greece and claims this ancestry.

Well the lastnames I posted show at least some recent relation, I don't know how they feel today though, but If they search their names? Those who have Greek origin ones of course.


Greek lastnames of Sicily and South Sicily, 10th to 13th century:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13.html

10th-13th century also.

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13_12.html

Greek origin lastnames in the same area today:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/09/blog-post.html

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/10/2_08.html

[rapunzels tower]

With all of the temples and ruins, Greek-origin city names and surnames, and the known history of the island it'd be pretty impossible for them not to know.

For the record, most Sicilians today also recognize and embrace the Greek heritage of the island more than the Roman, although this makes sense since the Romans simply took control and didn't settle there or build many structures, etc. This is evident to tourists as well.

With this in mind, I don't think you'd find anyone there today who will refer to themselves as Greeks, since the connection is to ancient and not modern Greece. Most Sicilians simply see themselves as Sicilians, point blank.

---------- Post added 2010-10-29 at 22:32 ----------


Well duh, but I just find it a little funny that an an American of Italian descent would identify with some random ancient Greek settlers.

These 'random' ancient Greek settlers contributed more ancient structures, genes, and history to the island than anyone else. ;)

[Ducheff]

You've got to be kidding. Ancient Greek temples and ruins all over the island? Basic knowledge of their own history? Maybe Americans wouldn't know this but I'd imagine these basics would be taught in Sicilian schools.

There are Roman temples and ruins in Portugal, Spain, UK, France. It doesn't mean that Portuguese, Spaniards, English and French people claim to be of Roman or Italian ancestry.

I don't think that Sicilians cultivate their ancient Greek ancestry only because there are Greek temples there or because they study that Greeks settled there.

I don't see any Portuguese claiming to be a Roman because one can find Roman ruins there and there was a Roman settlement there as well.

---------- Post added 2010-10-30 at 02:05 ----------


These 'random' ancient Greek settlers contributed more ancient structures, genes, and history to the island than anyone else. ;)

This may be true, but I don't think that an average Sicilian knows or cares about it.

[rapunzels tower]

There are Roman temples and ruins in Portugal, Spain, UK, France. It doesn't mean that Portuguese, Spaniards, English and French people claim to be of Roman or Italian ancestry.

I don't think that Sicilians cultivate their ancient Greek ancestry only because there are Greek temples there or because they study that Greeks settled there.

I don't see any Portuguese claiming to be a Roman because one can find Roman ruins there and there was a Roman settlement there as well.

---------- Post added 2010-10-30 at 02:05 ----------



This may be true, but I don't think that an average Sicilian knows or cares about it.


I think most of the educated ones do know and maybe they don't care as much as some of us do on these boards (I mean face it, most of us here are not exactly normal, we're far more interested in these smaller details) but just know that a significant portion of Sicilians do not identify themselves as Italian, but instead opt to identify as Sicilian (particularly those of us who do not want to erase all but 150 years of history and instead embrace it all).

[Ducheff]

I think most of the educated ones do know and maybe they don't care as much as some of us do on these boards (I mean face it, most of us here are not exactly normal, we're far more interested in these smaller details) but just know that a significant portion of Sicilians do not identify themselves as Italian, but instead opt to identify as Sicilian (particularly those of us who do not want to erase all but 150 years of history and instead embrace it all).

Are you of Italian descent? I thought you were Cape Verdean and Portuguese?

[rapunzels tower]

Are you of Italian descent? I thought you were Cape Verdean and Portuguese?


I'm Sicilian, Corsican, Portuguese, Cape Verdean, and a small amount Polish. That's exactly how I identify but you can interpret it however you want.

[Ducheff]

I'm Sicilian, Corsican, Portuguese, Cape Verdean, and a small amount Polish. That's exactly how I identify but you can interpret it however you want.

How about your American identity?

[rapunzels tower]

How about your American identity?

I see myself as white American.

[vanillagorilla]

There are Roman temples and ruins in Portugal, Spain, UK, France. It doesn't mean that Portuguese, Spaniards, English and French people claim to be of Roman or Italian ancestry.

I don't think that Sicilians cultivate their ancient Greek ancestry only because there are Greek temples there or because they study that Greeks settled there.

I don't see any Portuguese claiming to be a Roman because one can find Roman ruins there and there was a Roman settlement there as well.

---------- Post added 2010-10-30 at 02:05 ----------



This may be true, but I don't think that an average Sicilian knows or cares about it.

I don't think that you know anything whatsoever about Sicily or Sicilians.

---------- Post added 2010-10-30 at 07:54 ----------


Greek lastnames of Sicily and South Sicily, 10th to 13th century:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13.html

10th-13th century also.

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/11/10-13_12.html

Greek origin lastnames in the same area today:

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/09/blog-post.html

http://greek-lastnames.blogspot.com/2009/10/2_08.html

My ancestors were from the Province of Messina. The area around Messina and Taormina was the last Greek-speaking and Byzantine-rite area in Sicily (up to the 15th century.) This region still has the highest frequency of Greek-origin surnames in Sicily.

[alfieb]

My ancestors were from the Province of Messina. The area around Messina and Taormina was the last Greek-speaking and Byzantine-rite area in Sicily (up to the 15th century.) This region still has the highest frequency of Greek-origin surnames in Sicily.

Agreed. I've never been to the city of Messina yet, but I spent a lot of time in Taormina and it felt different from the rest of Sicily. Even grocery shopping, there were differences in the items you would find, albeit there are some things that are commonplace throughout Italy.

For example, in Taormina just as in, say, Bologna, the entire pasta aisle consisted of Barilla products. :lol:

[jibarodepr]

I see myself as white American.I see you as Sicilian-American

[rapunzels tower]

I see you as Sicilian-American

:)

I actually in real life would emphasize my Portuguese American side just as much but on here it seems like I don't, since I don't feel like I need to defend or justify that side of me as much as I have to justify the Sicilian part.

---------- Post added 2010-10-30 at 17:45 ----------




My ancestors were from the Province of Messina. The area around Messina and Taormina was the last Greek-speaking and Byzantine-rite area in Sicily (up to the 15th century.) This region still has the highest frequency of Greek-origin surnames in Sicily.


I was surprised to see that one of my family names was listed as Greek origin given that the relative who had it was from as far west as Palermo. Unless they originally traced back to Messina, where that name is most common, and I just don't know it (this is probable). Being the capital of the island and the largest city I'd probably expect you'd find all of the island's influences come together there.

[Valerio]

Sicilian are really greek so greece can have it anyway they need the money

[rapunzels tower]

Sicilian are really greek so greece can have it anyway they need the money

That wouldn't work either. Sicily lost much of the Greek culture over the centuries.

[Debian]

I see you as Sicilian-American

that's racist :whoco:

---------- Post added 2010-10-31 at 02:54 ----------


Sicilian are really greek so greece can have it anyway they need the money

aren't you the brunn, anglosaxon troll for any means :lol::whoco::evilgrin:

[alfieb]

http://www.blitzquotidiano.it/politica-italiana/raffaele-lombardo-bossi-secessione-sicilia-614766/

Lombardo stuzzica Bossi: “Secessione? Sì, ma in Sicilia”

Il governatore Raffaele Lombardo provoca e rilancia l’idea della secessione in Sicilia. ”Chiederò al ministro per il Federalismo Umberto Bossi – spiega Lombardo – che questa secessione la faccia veramente una volta per tutte, ma in Sicilia. Ci mandi pure al diavolo: sono sicuro che, da indipendenti, ce la caveremo meglio che restando sotto la tutela di Roma”.

Intervistato dal quotidiano il Giornale, Lombardo aggiunge: ”Senza una pistola puntata alla tempia non saremo mai virtuosi. Però temo che il federalismo non si realizzerà affatto com’è stato pensato. E allora meglio che ciascuno vada per la propria strada”.

A livello economico, ”lo stato italiano incassa 10 miliardi di euro di entrate fiscali derivanti dalla raffinazione del petrolio. Ci lascino quello che è dei siciliani e noi siamo a posto”. Per il governatore ”L’unità d’Italia non è stata un affare né per i veneti né per i siciliani né per nessuno”.

”Quando sarà riscritta la storia d’Italia – aggiunge Lombardo – si vedrà che una mano al successo della mafia l’hanno data i garibaldini. Garibaldi portava in Sicilia un regno la cui capitale era molto lontana e la criminalità organizzata ha bisogno di questo: più distante è il sovrano o il presidente e meglio campa”.

:lol:

[Skadesisuolu]

:rolleyes: in every thread where Sicilians are mentioned, the "Sicilians were spawned from niggers" clip must be played. It's like Godwin's law.


Sounds similar to when you accuse finns for beeing asians not europeans. It doesnt matter how little "negroid" blood you have if its 1% or 0.01% you where still originally a "negroid" population.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 11:14 ----------


1. My parents are from Sicily.
2. My ancestors are from Greece.
3. For 2,000 years, Sicily was part of the Hellenic world, until around 1200 AD when the Greek language and religion were replaced with Latin ones.


All these places are very close to the african coastline.

[Aetius]

”Quando sarà riscritta la storia d’Italia – aggiunge Lombardo – si vedrà che una mano al successo della mafia l’hanno data i garibaldini. Garibaldi portava in Sicilia un regno la cui capitale era molto lontana e la criminalità organizzata ha bisogno di questo: più distante è il sovrano o il presidente e meglio campa”.
He may be right on this. But coming from Raffaele Lombardo, this is quite hilarious.

[alfieb]

Yeah, that argument is very commonplace. While the Italian government has named streets after Garibaldi in every village in Sicily, he is seen as a villain (or even a criminal) by many Sicilians, and is somehow blamed for the mafia.

Growing up, I tried to give him a fair shake and read his autobiography (in the native Italian of course), but I him contemptible for both his nationalism and his socialism.

Not to mention he was a devout republican who betrayed that cause and essentially handed the throne of Italy to the King of Sardinia.

[Viking]

Off Topic split out here (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=10643). Back to the subject now.

/ Moderator

[Skadesisuolu]

2. My ancestors are from Greece.

So you are really of immigrant stock in Siciliy. Conquerer with ultimate roots from central-asia? What happend to the native population of Sicilly?

[alfieb]

So you are really of immigrant stock in Siciliy. Conquerer with ultimate roots from central-asia? What happend to the native population of Sicilly?

Intermixing over 2,000 years. Culturally assimilated into Hellenic world.

[rapunzels tower]

So you are really of immigrant stock in Siciliy. Conquerer with ultimate roots from central-asia? What happend to the native population of Sicilly?

What are people not understanding?

An average Sicilian is likely to have all or most of the following in their ancestry if you go back far enough;

1) Greek
2) Phoenician
3) Northern European
4) Sicanian (an Iberian group), Elymian (an Anatolian group), Sicels (Italic group).
5) North African

[alfieb]

This idiot thinks that the Indo European people originated in Central Asia, and are just like his Siberian ancestors.

[rapunzels tower]

This idiot thinks that the Indo European people originated in Central Asia, and are just like his Siberian ancestors.


:lol::lol:

[Skadesisuolu]

1) Greek
2) Phoenician
3) Northern European
4) Sicanian (an Iberian group), Elymian (an Anatolian group), Sicels (Italic group).
5) North African

All indo-european speaking groups?

[alfieb]

All indo-european speaking groups?
No.

Two of those groups were Semitic-speakers. However, Semitic peoples are still Caucasoids, much unlike your ancestors in the Orient.

[Skadesisuolu]

This idiot thinks that the Indo European people originated in Central Asia, and are just like his Siberian ancestors.

So isnt it correct that the most accepted hypothesis about the urheimat of the proto-indo-european is partly on the western central-asian steppes?

---------- Post added 2010-11-02 at 11:14 ----------


No.

Two of those groups were Semitic-speakers. However, Semitic peoples are still Caucasoids, much unlike your ancestors in the Orient.

So sicilians are also not only central asians but arabs?

---------- Post added 2010-11-02 at 11:16 ----------


This idiot thinks that the Indo European people originated in Central Asia, and are just like his Siberian ancestors.

So what is you proof that saami and finns actually are siberians?

[Insula]

Alfieb is assuming all ancient Europeans were Caucasoids. Is that true?

[alfieb]

Alfieb is assuming all ancient Europeans were Caucasoids. Is that true?

It is not.

[Insula]

It is not.

Then it doesn't matter whether Finns are mixed with Mongoloids or not.

EDIT: my question was "is that true that all ancient europeans where Caucasoids"? not "is alfieb saying that all ancient europeans were Caucasoid"?

[alfieb]

So isnt it correct that the most accepted hypothesis about the urheimat of the proto-indo-european is partly on the western central-asian steppes?
Take that up with Polako. He's the expert.


So sicilians are also not only central asians but arabs?
We never denied having Arabic heritage.


So what is you proof that saami and finns actually are siberians?
Your language, your Y-DNA haplogroups, your remnants of an Asian Arctic culture that your neighbors oddly do not share.


Then it doesn't matter whether Finns are mixed with Mongoloids or not.

We don't know when they arrived. What we do know is that we got here first, and that their ancestors were far more like the Huns and Mongols than they were the Romans and Greeks.

---------- Post added 2010-11-02 at 06:28 ----------


EDIT: my question was "is that true that all ancient europeans where Caucasoids"? not "is alfieb saying that all ancient europeans were Caucasoid"?

And what I did was correct your statement. I am not saying all ancient peoples in Europe were Caucasoids, so it is irrelevant if it is true or not.

[Aetius]

We never denied having Arabic heritage.
If I was an Arab I would be offended by most posters of this forum. Usually, having some Arabic ancestry is meant in a derogatory sense on here, since people always bring up this aspect to supposedly upset the Sicilian posters (only them, btw). Very occasionally the Sicilians' other several ancestral components (probably more important) are mentioned, however.

[Polako]

So isnt it correct that the most accepted hypothesis about the urheimat of the proto-indo-european is partly on the western central-asian steppes?

The problem with what you're saying is that the Asian part of the steppe, even the western part, was settled from Europe during the early Bronze Age. So, from west to east, not from east to west.

[Karhunkynsi]

Lol, alfieb thinks Sicilians look Indo-European (blonde, blue eyed Aryans) , rotflmao

[Aetius]

Lol, alfieb thinks Sicilians look Indo-European (blonde, blue eyed Aryans) , rotflmao
Does he? I hadn't noticed really.

[alfieb]

Lol, alfieb thinks Sicilians look Indo-European (blonde, blue eyed Aryans) , rotflmao

Augustus (http://www.geminiauction.com/images/ancientcoins/300x300/cc13122a.jpg), Tiberius (http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tiberius.png), Caligula (http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/cjsmrbig/caligula.jpg), Claudius (http://www.romanemperors.com/images/claudius/bust-as-jupiter.jpg), Nero (http://www.romancoins.info/Otho-Kopf-Louvre-small.jpg).

The first five Roman Emperors. Were they Indo-European? Do any of them look like Finns to you? Because, they look like wogs to me.

[Aetius]

Augustus (http://www.geminiauction.com/images/ancientcoins/300x300/cc13122a.jpg), Tiberius (http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tiberius.png), Caligula (http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/cjsmrbig/caligula.jpg), Claudius (http://www.romanemperors.com/images/claudius/bust-as-jupiter.jpg), Nero (http://www.romancoins.info/Otho-Kopf-Louvre-small.jpg).

The first five Roman Emperors. Were they Indo-European? Do any of them look like Finns to you? Because, they look like wogs to me.
Probably they didn't look Finnish neither stereotypical wog: if I recall correctly, according to Suetonius in the Lives of the Caesars, at least 3 of those you mention (Augustus, Caligual and Nero) had light hair. Nonetheless their facial structure surely looks Italian more then Finnish alright.

[rapunzels tower]

Very occasionally the Sicilians' other several ancestral components (probably more important) are mentioned, however.


The reason for this is because it's much more difficult to use Greek, Elymian, Sicanian, Sicel, etc. as insults. Although I don't see why some people would immediately use Arab as an insult unless they're stereotyping.

[Skadesisuolu]

Take that up with Polako. He's the expert.

Why do that when you seem to be so sure saami and finns are "asians"? So far you have not been able to in any way justify and prove your claims about siberian origin.



We never denied having Arabic heritage.

So you are a mix of arab and central-asians then?


Your language, your Y-DNA haplogroups, your remnants of an Asian Arctic culture that your neighbors oddly do not share.

Just as with the different hypthesis about the urheimat of the proto-indo european language there are different hypthesis about the urheimat of the proto-uralic language. The latest appears to show the proto-uralic urheimat close to the indo-european one in the volga region supporting the hypthesis that uralic was originally a european language.

Our Y-DNA haplogroups appear to be ultimatly of asian origin but so do the major haplogroups of the sicilians. I wonder then why N dudes automatically are asians while R dudes automatically is europeans.

There may be some cultural similarites with some of the high arctic people but this is likely more the result of cultural borrowing than have anything to do with genetic influences and do remember the culture before the agricultural expansion into Europe may have more resembled parts of the saami culture than the newcomers.

---------- Post added 2010-11-02 at 15:15 ----------


The problem with what you're saying is that the Asian part of the steppe, even the western part, was settled from Europe during the early Bronze Age. So, from west to east, not from east to west.

If this supposedly was true it is still in asia therefore proto-indoeuropeans language and its dexcendents = asians. :thumbsup:

[sephiroth2099]

Why do that when you seem to be so sure saami and finns are "asians"? So far you have not been able to in any way justify and prove your claims about siberian origin.




So you are a mix of arab and central-asians then?



Just as with the different hypthesis about the urheimat of the proto-indo european language there are different hypthesis about the urheimat of the proto-uralic language. The latest appears to show the proto-uralic urheimat close to the indo-european one in the volga region supporting the hypthesis that uralic was originally a european language.

Our Y-DNA haplogroups appear to be ultimatly of asian origin but so do the major haplogroups of the sicilians. I wonder then why N dudes automatically are asians while R dudes automatically is europeans.

There may be some cultural similarites with some of the high arctic people but this is likely more the result of cultural borrowing than have anything to do with genetic influences and do remember the culture before the agricultural expansion into Europe may have more resembled parts of the saami culture than the newcomers.

---------- Post added 2010-11-02 at 15:15 ----------



If this supposedly was true it is still in asia therefore proto-indoeuropeans language and its dexcendents = asians. :thumbsup:

I think what alfieb is trying to claim is...even if R1A and B did originate from Eurasia or Central Asia, these HG's are still linked with Caucasians as mainly Caucasian people carry it. Mongoloids werent the only people living in Asia, Caucasians also inhabit Asian regions. I think what he's trying to tell u is that Finnish and Sami HG's are in fact linked with Mongoloids, while R1A and B..even though they mightve originated in Asia, arent related to Mongoloid Asians but Caucasian people.

[Karhunkynsi]

The first five Roman Emperors. Were they Indo-European? Do any of them look like Finns to you? Because, they look like wogs to me.

What do you Sicilians have to do with Roman Emperors ? You are Italified people, not Italics. Besides whats the point for posting emperors in the first place ? Republic had existed several hundred years before Caesar.

Italic tribes came from the Central Europe (they were cousins of the Celts remember). Italo-Celtic was spoken at Tumulus/Urnfield culture. Celtic branch became the Hallstat culture while the Italic tribes marched into Italy. There they forced the local wogs out of their way and became true force to reckon.

They were not wogs by any standards. Latin became numero uno language and other Italic tribes started to speak it aswell.

Now, you Sicilians have nothing to do with Italics. You are mix of earlier Afro-Asiatics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages), Siggers (or what ever they are called) and Greko-swarthies, who have been linguistically Italified by the Rome.

You are basically population where the language and genes dont match. You should be speaking your genetic language which is Afro-Asiatic.

Ps. Gaius Julius looks like Noric, not a wog.

[Insula]

They were not wogs by any standards. Latin became numero uno language and other Italic tribes started to speak it aswell.

With a noticeable Etruscan influence, like the usual placement of the verb at the end of a sentence.

[alfieb]

The Sicels from which our name derives were an Italic people originating near Rome.

[Karhunkynsi]

The Sicels from which our name derives were an Italic people originating near Rome.

Nonsense. They may have been Illyrians of sort. Sicanis were propably just one more Afro-Asiatic group.

[Insula]

I'm afraid of going to Finland, somebody could think I'm Sicilian.

[Skadesisuolu]

I think what alfieb is trying to claim is...even if R1A and B did originate from Eurasia or Central Asia, these HG's are still linked with Caucasians as mainly Caucasian people carry it. Mongoloids werent the only people living in Asia, Caucasians also inhabit Asian regions. I think what he's trying to tell u is that Finnish and Sami HG's are in fact linked with Mongoloids, while R1A and B..even though they mightve originated in Asia, arent related to Mongoloid Asians but Caucasian people.

So why do altains (a mongol people I presume) have 47% R1a and 3% N?

Actually the largest concentration of hg N is found west of the urals. East of the urals hg N only appear highly frequent in some small populations spread across large thinly populated areas. There high freq might be more related to founder effects than anything else. A more true native haplogroup for Siberia could be hg Q and C.

Its interesting to see that especially hg R1a but also R1b is actually reasonably well presented in the Volga-Urals, Siberia and Central Asia. The frequencies varies between the populations for those but so does it for Hg N and other haplogroups. It make one get the felling that the frequency peaks east of the urals is more the result of random foundereffect than anything else.