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Thread: How much Near Eastern and North African admixture is there in Portugal and Spain?1357 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDelarge View Post
    Being part middle eastern doesn't even make sense. We are closer to north africa.

    I'm just repeating what others say. Many people use North African and Middle Eastern somewhat interchangably too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkpanda93 View Post
    I'm just repeating what others say. Many people use North African and Middle Eastern somewhat interchangably too.
    If you look at the map you'll see that it doesn't make much sense. Are you part portuguese by the way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDelarge View Post
    If you look at the map you'll see that it doesn't make much sense. Are you part portuguese by the way?
    I know right. How is Morocco or Algeria the "Middle East" if it's more geographically west than all of Europe?

    Indeed I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkpanda93 View Post
    It looks like for some of the people on that table, their West Asian, North African, and Southwest Asian scores add up to slightly less than 20%. Not a lot if you think about it.
    To a Scandinavian that is a lot, but it is good people would rather not dismiss such findings and instead try correlate it with the ethnogenesis of their people.

    Do you have a similar chart for the Italian and Greek participants for comparison?
    I do and yep, BIG difference between East and West Mediterranean people. I didn't include North Italians or Tuscans though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svin View Post
    In terms of West-Asian like ancestry, more so representative of people along the Fertile Crescent, the Iberians show even less than the English, so very little. Arabian-like ancestry in Iberians largely ranges regionally i presume. I think Catalans show nil to a miniscule amount, while the Portuguese show more than Spaniards.
    You wrote a good post there has to be a correction. It's not the Catalans who lack a West Asian admixture but rather the Basques. Well, those who are 100% Basques; many have ancestry from near by regions because of migration for work, which is often, and somewhat amusingly to me, shown when they're looking for an ETA terrorist who I noticed often has a non-Basque surname along with a Basque surname (in Spain you use both your father's and mother's surname, for those not in the know).

    There is a Catalan in Dienekes' project who shows no Berber ancestry. I should try to figure out who he is and ask him to send his results to Polako for comparison. I suspect he may be a Catalan from the north, from like Gerona, which had heavy French immigration in the late 16th and early 17th century when the two nations were at peace and Catalunya was rebuilding its industry and demogaphics after a long decline in the late Middle Ages that was caused from severe epidemics and the losing out to the Venitians in the Mediterranean trade after previously smacking Genoa and Florence around, as well as taking over Naples and Siciliy.



    Collectively as Iberians, they are comparatively less Arabian influenced than even Northern Italians and therefore much of Italy, Greece and likely parts of the Balkans. There is a difference it seems between North African admixture in the Portuguese and the Spaniards. The Spaniards show a degree of it which is similiar to Southern Italians, Cypriots, Ashkenazi Jews, though not as great as Sicillians and Sephardic Jews. The Portuguese appear to have even greater North African admixture than the latter two and therefore out of all European populations properly sampled, they so far show the greatest amount.
    I suspect, and I remember Argiedude made a similar argument based on Haplogroups, that Berber ancestry goes from a West to East decline, with Portuguese, and I suspect Spaniards in Huelva, Extremadura, Salamanca (regions bordering Portugal) having similar amounts instead of a north to south decline that would make sense from what we know from history. Galicians, if we base it off of me, and my parents (both from Ourense), and a Galician from Lugo, don't have similar Berber ancesty as Portuguese. I forget what Kadu's results were but it would be interesting since he's from Minho, which borders Galicia.

    I also suspect that the relatively "heavy" Berber ancestry in western Iberia is not completely from the Moorish invasion but a long history of migration, with the Moorish impact playing more of a role with regards to North African influence in other parts of Spain. I have studies mentioned before of a older North African influence affecting southern and northern Portugal.



    Its important to note though that detecting North African admixture is difficult. Many North Africans who ventured into Iberia were largely composed of both a Berber and Arabian background. Rather than admixture, it could also just be geneflow.
    I can't agree with the Arabian influence being significant among the Moors. They appear just to be a small elite in the early years and their migration to Iberia would have been minimal during the 8th century and afterwards because of Cordoba's political independence.

    Heres a bar chart based on Dienekes participants results. Apparently in there are Catalans, Castilllians, Galician(s), not sure if there is Asturians and ofcourse there are Portuguese. Those two who show no SW Asian affinity, i wonder which group they might belong to, but i do have suspicions.
    I would suspect they are people near the Basque lands, north eastern Castilla-Leon or La Rioja. I suspect folks from La Rioja may be classified as Castillians since it's a region that was ruled by Castile since the early 11th century after defeating Navarra.
    Last edited by Papa Anodyne; 2011-02-06 at 04:05.

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    Sicilians have more North African and SW Asian than Greeks, while Greeks have slightly more West Asian and Northern European. Their Southern European component is about the same. And all of these non-European components far outweigh the amount Iberians have it looks like (maybe not the North African).

    Yet for some reason unknown to me many love to point out how foreign to Europe we (Iberians) supposedly are.
    Last edited by Pinkpanda93; 2011-02-06 at 04:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Anodyne View Post
    I suspect, and I remember Argiedude made a similar argument based on Haplogroups, that Berber ancestry goes from a West to East decline, with Portuguese, and I suspect Spaniards in Huelva, Extremadura, Salamanca (regions bordering Portugal) having similar amounts instead of a north to south decline that would make sense from what we know from history. Galicians, if we base it off of me, and my parents (both from Ourense), and a Galician from Lugo, don't have similar Berber ancesty as Portuguese. I forget what Kadu's results were but it would be interesting since he's from Minho, which borders Galicia.
    If you're talking just about haplogroups then i saw a study which said that they were higher in Asturias, which is strange because that's where the reconquista started from.
    As for Kadu's results, on the Dodecad project, he is less north african than me but more southwest asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svin View Post
    To a Scandinavian that is a lot, but it is good people would rather not dismiss such findings and instead try correlate it with the ethnogenesis of their people.
    I take no issues with the mixture that is present in Portugal but alot of times its grossly exaggerated imo. by people who don't know or have agendas usually

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDelarge View Post
    If you're talking just about haplogroups then i saw a study which said that they were higher in Asturias, which is strange because that's where the reconquista started from.
    Which ones? One's that indicate Berber ancestry?

    I remember that goofy study (goofy with regards to Jewish ancestry but not Moorish) and I suspect that many Moriscos were sent to North Western Spain to break up their community. We know for a fact they were sent to other regions but only Castile is mentioned but Castile could mean the Kingdom of Castile, and not just the region, which would include Galicia and Asturias. Although I've never seen any indication it was carried out in Galicia or Asturias. All I have seen is Madrid asking Galician authorities if they could take some Moriscos and the Galicians pointing out the region was too poor to take any. But only regions under the Kingdom of Castile would be able to take them in considering any region that was was under the Kingom of Aragon had special rights and often could say fuck you to Madrid and the Basques had special privileges since the Middle Ages; I forgot the reason. I think it may have been to keep them loyal to Castile after they were attached after some war instead of rebelling in favor of the Kingdom of Navarra, which was a more natural fit.

    As for Kadu's results, on the Dodecad project, he is less north african than me but more southwest asian.
    I need to check his North African score. I wonder if it's closer to me (2.2%) than to you. I'm pretty average in every way for a Spaniard in Dienekes' project except for a relatively high West African admixture at 1.2% compared to the rest. This explains my ability at basketball and my distrust of "the man." Also, my very large penis.
    Last edited by Papa Anodyne; 2011-02-06 at 04:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Anodyne View Post
    Which ones? One's that indicate Berber ancestry?

    I remember that goofy study (goofy with regards to Jewish ancestry but not Moorish) and I suspect that many Moriscos were sent to North Western Spain to break up their community. We know for a fact they were sent to other regions but only Castile is mentioned but Castile could mean the Kingdom of Castile and not just the region, which would include Galicia and Asturias. Although I've never seen any indication it was carried out in Galicia or Asturias. All I have seen is Madrid asking Galician authorities if they could take some Moriscos and the Galicians pointing out the region was too poor to take any. But only regions under the Kingdom of Castile would be able to take them in considering any region that was was under the Kingom of Aragon had special rights and often could say fuck you to Madrid and the Basques had special privileges since the Middle Ages; I forgot the reason. I think it may have been to keep them loyal to Castile after they were attached after some war instead of rebelling in favor of the Kingdom of Navarra, which was a more natural fit.
    Here's the study. I was talking about figure 4 but i made a mistake between north african and sephardic jewish, so nevermind what i said.

    I need to check his North African score. I wonder if it's closer to me (2.2%) than to you. I'm pretty average in every way for a Spaniard in Dienekes' project except for a relatively high West African admixture at 1.2% compared to the rest. This explains my ability at basketball and my distrust of "the man." Also, my very large penis.
    lol

    I checked and Kadu is in between the two of us.

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