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Thread: R1a1 M17 From India with love1765 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
    An increasing number of studies have found South Asia to have the highest level of diversity of Y-STR haplotype variation within R1a1a. On this basis, while several studies have concluded that the data is consistent with South Asia as the likely original point of dispersal (for example, Kivisild et al. (2003), Mirabal et al. (2009) and Underhill et al. (2009)) a few have actively argued for this scenario (for example Sengupta et al. (2005), Sahoo et al. (2006), Sharma et al. (2009). A survey study as of December 2009, including a collation of retested Y-DNA from previous studies, makes a South Asian R1a1a origin the strongest proposal amongst the various possibilities.

    Oppenheimer was correct.
    This can be explained by invasions, India has been invaded by early Indo-Iranian tribes, Scythians, and Mongols/Turks whom all carry a good amount of R1a1a, so this diversity can be explained by the different waves that have come to India which mixed along with the native R1a1a's giving the Indian R1a1a a higher diversity.

    Although I would not be surprised if areas like Iran/Pakistan turned out to be the origin of R1a1a.

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    No.

    West Bengal Brahmins (72%) came from Middle East?
    Nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
    No.

    West Bengal Brahmins (72%) came from Middle East?
    Nonsense.
    Highest frequency =/= point of origin

    The origin of a haplogroup has little to do with its frequency. Variance and diversity are more important in regards to origins. The Ouldeme of Cameroon and the Basques of Europe are both over 90% R1b, but the haplogroup did not originate in either group.

    However, as birko has already mentioned, R1a1a's diversity is a tricky matter due to the history of the locations in occupies and the many movements of people to and from those places.
    Last edited by Rochefaton; 2011-04-06 at 00:57.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
    No.

    West Bengal Brahmins (72%) came from Middle East?
    Nonsense.
    As Rochefaton said, frequency means absolutely nothing when it comes to origins, you can have a frequency of 90%-100% in one area yet the origin could be in another area where the diversity is high but the frequency is only 10%-15%, this is actually the case with R1b, it's most frequent in Western Europe but the origins are in Anatolia.

    Also I understand that R1a1a has a higher diversity in India, to be honest haplogroup R in general most likely originated somewhere around South Central Asia, because areas like extreme North India and Pakistan are probably the only areas on earth where one sees a very high amount of haplogroup R diversity (R, R1, R1a, R2, R2a, etc), but is the origin more toward Central Asia? West Asia? or South Asia? That we do not know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    This can be explained by invasions, India has been invaded by early Indo-Iranian tribes, Scythians, and Mongols/Turks whom all carry a good amount of R1a1a, so this diversity can be explained by the different waves that have come to India which mixed along with the native R1a1a's giving the Indian R1a1a a higher diversity.

    Although I would not be surprised if areas like Iran/Pakistan turned out to be the origin of R1a1a.
    nope, india has always had a too big native population for any invaders to be able to change the genotype at such a level.

    in fact the mongols and muslim invaders genetic impact is barely traceable and the invasions occurred way to recently for those haplogroups to spread and become so numerous in India.

    R1a definitiely existed in india before any invasions, and is most likely the place of origin for the haplogroup.

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    The answer is where the oldest M17 is found. Anyone know where ?
    "The man of the future will be of mixed race. Today's races and classes will gradually disappear owing to the vanishing of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falsetruth View Post
    nope, india has always had a too big native population for any invaders to be able to change the genotype at such a level.

    in fact the mongols and muslim invaders genetic impact is barely traceable and the invasions occurred way to recently for those haplogroups to spread and become so numerous in India.

    R1a definitiely existed in india before any invasions, and is most likely the place of origin for the haplogroup.
    If India was not influenced much by its invaders the north would have not shifted to a total different language family, large population or not, there has been a major outside genetic influence in South Asia, even if you make a case for haplogroup R1a, check out how common haplogroup J2 is there, what about that? Lemme guess, J2's origin is in India too right? Get real, humans migrate and populations get influenced, India is not any different.

    In any case, I do believe that the extreme northern parts of India/Pakistan may ultimately be the home of most of the R subgroups since that's the area that actually has mixed lineages such as R, R1, R1a, R2, etc, I don't think you'll find old lineages like this commonly around the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    If India was not influenced much by its invaders the north would have not shifted to a total different language family, large population or not, there has been a major outside genetic influence in South Asia, even if you make a case for haplogroup R1a, check out how common haplogroup J2 is there, what about that? Lemme guess, J2's origin is in India too right? Get real, humans migrate and populations get influenced, India is not any different.

    In any case, I do believe that the extreme northern parts of India/Pakistan may ultimately be the home of most of the R subgroups since that's the area that actually has mixed lineages such as R, R1, R1a, R2, etc, I don't think you'll find old lineages like this commonly around the world.
    like i said in another thread, i know modern indians are predominantly composed of 2 source poulations. the ancestral south indian and the ancestral north indian. but the ANI has lived in in india for so long that its pointless to call that ancestry foreign.

    "A substantial presence of J2b is found in the Balkans and neighboring parts of Greece in the West, and in both tribal and caste populations of the Indian subcontinent to the East. The high variance of J2b2 in South Asia indicates a probable pre-Neolithic migration"

    some of the J2 is obviously from muslims but alot of it has been in india before muslims or islam existed. its just one of the many populations that has settled in india in ancient times. and due to the caste system majority of those "newly" arrived J2 muslism are confined to themselves and dont mix. those people are only indian by nationality.

    point is, with your argument you shoudlnt even call modern italians as italians since they are composed of so many different populations. the real italians would be the Etruscans etc.

    and you could even argue that many of the eurpeans are "indians" since they got R1a originally from south asia.

    but none of that is sensible.

    quite simply modern indians have lived in india so long that they cant be anything else other than indians. especially since each of the major source populations are of the caucasoid race.

    thats why mestizos are mixed and african americans as well. but i dont consider a half irish/ half swedish person mixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    This can be explained by invasions, India has been invaded by early Indo-Iranian tribes, Scythians, and Mongols/Turks whom all carry a good amount of R1a1a, so this diversity can be explained by the different waves that have come to India which mixed along with the native R1a1a's giving the Indian R1a1a a higher diversity.

    Although I would not be surprised if areas like Iran/Pakistan turned out to be the origin of R1a1a.
    Dear friend!!
    I am an Indian and I am surprised at why you are simply refusing to believe the Indian origin theory of R1a1a; specially when you are willing to accept Pakistan as the origin. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Indians are non-Abrahamic. Anyways; Pakistani people are Indians and they were till recently a part of india. Iranians are different ethnicity!! Western Iran based on Iranians sampled (52 Samples from the western part of the country) appears to have had little genetic influence from the supposed R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians about 10%.... Please leave any biases here and be as much scientific as you can be!!
    regards
    an Indian

    ps: haplogroup F is a very common Y-chromosome haplogroup spanning all the continents. This haplogroup and its subclades contain more than 90% of the world's existing male population. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28Y-DNA%29.PNG here it is clearly shown that India was the origin of haplogroup F!!!!

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