User Tag List

Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8
Results 71 to 74 of 74

Thread: Phenotype of the Proto-Indo-Europeans2192 days old

  1. #71
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist Polako's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,306
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    There were almost pure WHG still living in Eastern Europe (in and around modern day Belarus) during the Bronze Age. And the Kurgan cultures of the region that came after Corded Ware had very high levels of WHG admix, plus Balto-Slavic clades of R1a.

    The last Jones paper didn't get into this, but the next one on the Baltic will. So Baltic and East Central Europe is no longer much of a mystery.

    I don't know what the story is yet with Northwestern Europe or the Finnic and former Finnic parts of Northeastern Europe.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Polako For This Useful Post:

    Simi (2017-02-15)

  3. #72
    Established Member
    Mein Führer! I can walk! ageladakos's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-12-20
    Posts
    4,187
    Gender

    Default

    Reasoning:

    Ancient Greeks split much earlier than most IE groups (earlier than 3000 BC) and have the longest written history as well as earlier high civilization.

    1- General Phenotype:
    During the classical period, they liked to create very realistic statues and busts of themselves that included the appearances of both the "IE-looking" and "pre-Hellenic-non-IE". Romans that based their civilization on the Greek one also produced a lot of realistic busts of themselves. Hellenised populations also did the same. All these can be used as a comparison to see how the present day appearances existed since the ancient times.

    ~~~

    Examples of Greek IE faces:

    Pericles





    Euripides



    Aristoteles



    Sophocles



    Aristophanes



    Plato


    ~~~

    Examples of Greeks that display NON-IE, PreHellenic Ancestry:

    Socrates



    ~~~

    Example of Latin faces, mixed appearance:

    Cicero



    Julious Ceasar



    Marcus Vispanius Agrippa



    Vitellius



    Emperor Caligula



    Antonius Pius



    ~~~

    Example of Latin (more Dinaric looking) faces, mixed appearance:

    Emperor Tiberius





    ~~~

    Example of a Gaul



    ~~~

    Example of a Persian

    Mausolus, Hellenophile Persian Satrap of Caria (sw Anatolia) / probably mixed



    ~~~

    Example (one of few) of Thracian dead-mask



    ~~~

    2- Coloration:

    When it comes to colors, skin, hair and eyes, unfortunately the statues have lost their color, but mosaics as well as paintings retained them.

    ~~~

    Mosaics:

    Greeks, single archaeological site except the famous last one














    ~~~

    Paintings

    Fayum portraits of Greeks (quite possible mixture)





    ~~~

    Wall-paintings

    Minoans, preHellenic possible IE origin.





    ~~~

    3 - Additional:

    I also include busts/artwork of NON-IE people for comparison:

    Assyrians





    Egyptians:



    Fayum, probably mixed, but do see the skin color



    ~~~

    4 - Notes

    I do not include earlier than classical works (kouroi) despite their existence, because they are very affected by the Egyptian Technotropy. I avoided using Hittite busts because of how simplistic/unrealistic they are.
    I also tried to find something ancient Persian, but i didn't manage to find anything.
    I cannot remember which was the Goth guy whose statue i had seen in the past :/

    Unfortunately, the famous ancient Spartans who did not even mix with other Greeks but instead enslaved them, did not leave behind any statues or busts, or at least none that i am aware of.

    ~~~

    5 - Conclusion

    A) Let's start with the obvious. No, slavs and especially Polish are not proto-ie resembling, they are younger linguistic and population groups

    B) Classification stuff:
    - The most prevalent type was naturally Mediterranid, as you can see from the mosaics, Nordics are depigmented Mediterranids
    - CM appears to be very minor in ancient Greek busts, thus proto-IE should not have had have heavy CM features
    - CM does appears on Latin busts
    - Dinaric as well as alpinoid feature also appear on busts of Romans which is normal as the ancestors of modern Balkan populations were Romans along with the Latins and Greeks.

    C) As you can see in the mosaics and fayum portaits, the skin color was white with some variation. the hair was primarily shades of brown, light/medium/dark, some blondes probably also existed as well as blue eye people. The notion of "nordic" proto-ie is probably wrong.

    D) If you look at the present day IE-speaking poppulations of partial/major IE ancestry, you can easily conclude that the looks which are shared between geographically isolated groups like e.g. Greeks, Swedish, Persians, Indians, you can conclude that the Proto-IE group looked like that.

    P.S. Polako, yo :>
    P.S. 2: as i suck in the typology stuff, feel free to correct me.

    Finally, i randomly found this ancient booty that deserves to be posted anyhow lol :P

    Last edited by ageladakos; 2017-02-16 at 01:42. Reason: I hate correcting long posts :/
    brb

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to ageladakos For This Useful Post:

    voyager (2017-02-15)

  5. #73
    Funding Member
    Established Member
    Fimbulvetr's owner Simi's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2012-10-27
    Posts
    599
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a1a*
    mtDNA
    U5a1b
    Metaethnos
    Corded Ware
    Ethnicity
    Swedish/Czech
    Politics
    Authoritarian

    Default

    So according to you, there was a major admixture event in the WHG refugium of the East Baltic, creating populations like Poland_EBA, Finns and Mordovians (without the East Asian) from which the Kurgans later expanded to produce a cline with the Basques and Iberia_BA at the other end, and Hungary_BA, Beakers, and modern North Europeans in the middle.

    It makes some sense. But how come the Lengyel farmers are the best match for EEF ancestry in North Europeans then? Just a coincidence?

    While we're at it, would you agree that Udmurts and their close relatives are the best proxies for how the EBA Steppe looked like, if you look at individuals that seem less Asian-influenced? Basically, that sort of leaves you with how regular North-East Europeans look like.
    Last edited by Simi; 2017-02-15 at 23:03.

  6. #74
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist Polako's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,306
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    It makes some sense. But how come the Lengyel farmers are the best match for EEF ancestry in North Europeans then? Just a coincidence?
    Lengyel_LN is the best proxy for the Neolithic base in Europe, and especially Eastern Europe. On top of this base you have various levels of WHG admixture.

    So in tests that have Lengyel_LN plus WHG, so that the algorithm can vary the WHG level, Lengyel_LN is the best Neolithic reference, probably because it's the closest thing we have, with varying levels of WHG, to the farmers who first came into contact with the expanding steppe herders.

    But in tests that use Middle Neolithic samples, Lengyel_LN can't compete, because its WHG admixture is too low. In such tests even Iberia Chalcolithic is a better fit, because it has something like 20% WHG admixture on top of what Lengyel_LN has.

    While we're at it, would you agree that Udmurts and their close relatives are the best proxies for how the EBA Steppe looked like, if you look at individuals that seem less Asian-influenced? Basically, that sort of leaves you with how regular North-East Europeans look like.
    I don't know. What we need are modern reconstructions of Western Yamnaya faces based on 3D modeling and ancient DNA.

    All of the stuff that has been done to date is half science, half art. And you can't judge looks by modern distributions of ancient genetic components, because natural selection can work very fast to change facial and cranial phenotypes.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Polako For This Useful Post:

    Arch Hades (2017-02-16), Simi (2017-02-16)

Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 661
    Last Post: 2015-09-03, 17:03
  2. Proto Indo European nouns
    By Ubirajara in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 2014-01-15, 06:41
  3. Questions Old Europeans and Indo Europeans
    By wronski feint in forum History
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2010-09-29, 00:04
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 2010-07-13, 23:14
  5. Proto-Indo-European
    By Sevastopol in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 2010-02-05, 14:54

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<