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View Poll Results: The Trojan War, Fact or Fiction?

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  • Fact

    29 78.38%
  • Fiction

    8 21.62%
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Thread: Did the Trojan War really happen?1563 days old

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyte View Post
    So according to your logic, most Indians and Africans would be white British because the British empire ruled India. History always shows that, while the ruling population may change, the subject population of location X, almost always remains indigenous. Therefore my belief holds more water.
    Greeks didn't rule over any foreigners on the map I just showed you,those are greek colonies(towns),as the map clearly points out, with greeks from Greece,the historic evidence of this is just as clear as the old ruins of those colonies and of the greek people left behind. On the other hand you tell me you believe you are descendant of trojans because of some story,but the facts are:

    1)The main source for the "trojan war" is the "Illiad" told by the poet Homer,he wasn't even a historian.
    2)All stuff about Troy is only in greek mythology,not history,therefore all characters there(including the greek leaders) didn't exist in real life.
    3)If I'm not mistaken the story ends with Troy being completely destroyed and the possible remaining trojans fleeing Anatolia for good.

    Now based on real history the greeks managed to make greek cities in Anatolia and conquer and convert anatolian people to hellenism,and at least 2-3 major hellenic empires ruled the area long before any turko-mong's horse stomped on that land.
    I'd say the chances favor greatly of you being some greek descendant rather than a trojan,whatever that means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyte View Post
    So according to your logic, most Indians and Africans would be white British because the British empire ruled India. History always shows that, while the ruling population may change, the subject population of location X, almost always remains indigenous. Therefore my belief holds more water.

    Define almost,by your logic half of Germany should be feeling polish right now,whole of the Americas should be feeling amerindian,most of Japan should be feeling Ainu, the people living in Great Britain should be all homogenous etc. etc. I'd say it's the other way you just describe it.
    Last edited by Unurautare; 2010-09-28 at 14:53.

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  3. #22
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    Men fighting over a whore bitch? Yeah that likely happened. :-(

    You know, if you are the king, you can't let a visiting royal bang your chick.

    Also, there was likely some other stuff involved, like access to trade routes, resources, etc. So the "chick defiling and lose of face" was the best excuse ever. Not like the King didn't have like 50 "Bottom Bitches" at his disposal at anytime, but you know..."he can't go out like that"...

    As far as all the mythology...oh that crap was added afterward to make the Greeks look heroic and to make little kids pay attention when this crap was "sung"...

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackKnightstick View Post
    Men fighting over a whore bitch? Yeah that likely happened. :-(

    You know, if you are the king, you can't let a visiting royal bang your chick.

    Also, there was likely some other stuff involved, like access to trade routes, resources, etc. So the "chick defiling and lose of face" was the best excuse ever. Not like the King didn't have like 50 "Bottom Bitches" at his disposal at anytime, but you know..."he can't go out like that"...

    As far as all the mythology...oh that crap was added afterward to make the Greeks look heroic and to make little kids pay attention when this crap was "sung"...
    Stories specifically made to tell to the kids are not based on any truth,the characters are as fake as the rest of the story. It's gonna take much more physical evidence than some ruins that are remotely associated with "Troy",because people want to believe it existed, and some moralistic poetry to prove the existence of a civilization. The greek ruler in the 'Trojan War' didn't exist in real life,neither did the rest,grow up kiddies, unless there is some hard-core evidence then it doesn't exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unurautare View Post
    Greeks didn't rule over any foreigners on the map I just showed you,those are greek colonies(towns),as the map clearly points out, with greeks from Greece,the historic evidence of this is just as clear as the old ruins of those colonies and of the greek people left behind. On the other hand you tell me you believe you are descendant of trojans because of some story,but the facts are:

    1)The main source for the "trojan war" is the "Illiad" told by the poet Homer,he wasn't even a historian.
    2)All stuff about Troy is only in greek mythology,not history,therefore all characters there(including the greek leaders) didn't exist in real life.
    3)If I'm not mistaken the story ends with Troy being completely destroyed and the possible remaining trojans fleeing Anatolia for good.

    Now based on real history the greeks managed to make greek cities in Anatolia and conquer and convert anatolian people to hellenism,and at least 2-3 major hellenic empires ruled the area long before any turko-mong's horse stomped on that land.
    I'd say the chances favor greatly of you being some greek descendant rather than a trojan,whatever that means.

    Define almost,by your logic half of Germany should be feeling polish right now,whole of the Americas should be feeling amerindian,most of Japan should be feeling Ainu, the people living in Great Britain should be all homogenous etc. etc. I'd say it's the other way you just describe it.
    Even before the war Homer describes Dardanians, neighbours and therefore strong allies of the Trojans, being Greek, at least their elite, Other Trojan allies also have been described as Greek, such as Lycians but by Herodotus.

    However, at the Homeric era, Greek was only a little tribe in central Greeks and there are various names to describe the ''Greeks'' (Achaeans, Danaans, etc) that took part against the ''Trojans'' (which is also a generalised term).

    Anyway, probably some wanted to control Marmara sea, as it's a place of great strategic importance. If the war ever happened it would be for this reason imo. And they maybe added a girl later to make the story passionate, who knows
    Last edited by gr2001; 2010-09-28 at 15:54.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unurautare View Post
    Greeks didn't rule over any foreigners on the map I just showed you,those are greek colonies(towns),as the map clearly points out, with greeks from Greece,the historic evidence of this is just as clear as the old ruins of those colonies and of the greek people left behind. On the other hand you tell me you believe you are descendant of trojans because of some story,but the facts are:
    What? All those areas were ethnic Hellens from Greece were they? Those are places which Greeks colonised, true, how does that suggest they all became genetically Greek?

    1)The main source for the "trojan war" is the "Illiad" told by the poet Homer,he wasn't even a historian.
    Well most ancient sources aren't accounts of historians, they are often the only source available and therefore considered the most accurate, unless disproven by other, more reliable sources.

    2)All stuff about Troy is only in greek mythology,not history,therefore all characters there(including the greek leaders) didn't exist in real life.
    Many events in Greek mythology are thought to be based on real events. It's not completely outlandish to consider the story of Troy being true when we consider that Hittites and other Anatolian civilisations acknowledged a similarly defined civilisation, in the area.

    3)If I'm not mistaken the story ends with Troy being completely destroyed and the possible remaining trojans fleeing Anatolia for good.
    That's more or less how the story ends, but we must consider that the world is not black and white, the story doesn't have to be either wholly an invention of Homers fantasy or wholly an account of real events.

    That aside, even if all Trojans left the area, it is likely they left genetic traces or that other civilisations in proximity of the Trojans would typically be genetically similar to them.

    Now based on real history the greeks managed to make greek cities in Anatolia and conquer and convert anatolian people to hellenism,and at least 2-3 major hellenic empires ruled the area long before any turko-mong's horse stomped on that land.
    You say it yourself, 'Hellenised'. Hellenised does not equal Hellen.

    How is a 'Turko-mongs horse stomping on the land relevant? No ones claiming that the Trojans were Mongoloid Siberians here.

    I'd say the chances favor greatly of you being some greek descendant rather than a trojan,whatever that means.
    Well if you consider Hellenised populations Greek, as you seem to do, Trojans seem to have been significantly Hellenised any way, and that is considering your argument is actually well structured. The chances that I'm a Greek descendant are not strong at all.

    Define almost,by your logic half of Germany should be feeling polish right now,whole of the Americas should be feeling amerindian,most of Japan should be feeling Ainu, the people living in Great Britain should be all homogenous etc. etc. I'd say it's the other way you just describe it.
    Almost: Nearly, close too, near to complete.

    The problem is it's not about 'feeling', in the context you've used it. Most of the Americas have a stronger Spanish culture than Aztec or Inca, because their rulers were Spaniards, half of Germany, while being Slavic in origin, have a German identity because their rulers were German, most Ainu in Japan have a Japanese culture because they were ruled by the Japanese, most of the English people of Britain have an Anglo-Saxon identity while they are overwhelmingly indigenous and closer to the Irish than to Germans or Scandinavians. Thank you for proving my point.

  9. #26
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    Kyte,choosing to troll me with your bullshit logic about a myth(and choosing what part of it you want and ignoring other parts) isn't going to get you more self-esteem or whatever you're trying to prove,the "Iliad" is just a greek myth,as I repeat there is nothing real about it,greek myths are also about the 1st greek ruler being half-man half-serpent,minotaur,the Olympus Gods etc. guess what? 0 credibility to all of them,check the definition for "myth",then check "legend",then check "history" and "historic records".
    About Americans: most of the population there today isn't native,in the fact most states in the Americas have genetic pop. from the old world,same with Australia and other colonies,you can check what "colony" means too,it was the same case with the ancient greeks,they made colonies all over the Mediterranean and Black Sea,fact is that you try to justify your turanism and steal the achievements of ancient people that lived in Anatolia(many of them massacred by turks later) based on some bs again doesn't impress me in any way.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyte View Post
    That's more or less how the story ends, but we must consider that the world is not black and white, the story doesn't have to be either wholly an invention of Homers fantasy or wholly an account of real events.

    That aside, even if all Trojans left the area, it is likely they left genetic traces or that other civilisations in proximity of the Trojans would typically be genetically similar to them.
    Agreed with the first.

    If Trojans would be genetically similar to other civilisations why ''Greeks'' wouldn't be similar to other civilisations too, remember, there wasn't a Greek identity then as I said, just tribes that probably were sharing some common culture or some common Gods. It's all hypothesis.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unurautare View Post
    Kyte,choosing to troll me with your bullshit logic about a myth(and choosing what part of it you want and ignoring other parts) isn't going to get you more self-esteem or whatever you're trying to prove
    Trolling? I call it, winning the discussion. I'm not trying to get self-esteem or prove anything, I don't know where you pull these allegations out of. Since when is rightfully disagreeing, trolling?

    ,the "Iliad" is just a greek myth,as I repeat there is nothing real about it,greek myths are also about the 1st greek ruler being half-man half-serpent,minotaur,the Olympus Gods etc. guess what? 0 credibility to all of them,check the definition for "myth",then check "legend",then check "history" and "historic records".
    'Greek myths were intended to provide a colorful explanation for things that went on in the world.' Is how one website has chosen to define it.

    Until quite recently (1870s) Greek myths were believed to be completely fictional but following German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's excavations, sites such as Troy and the ruins of King Minos' palace were discovered. Greek mythology is now accepted as a source to many real events, many of which may or may not be true. The point here, though, is that they are not all dismissed by historians as fantasy, particularly not Troy. The Illiad is older than historical record taking, these stories were referred to in a historical context even after historical records began to be held in Greece.

    If you knew the first thing about historical research methods, you would also know that, when evidence disproving vague accounts (or myths and legends) is not available, these sources are seen as serious historical content.

    About Americans: most of the population there today isn't native,in the fact most states in the Americas have genetic pop. from the old world,same with Australia and other colonies,
    I was referring to south America. Most south Americans are genetically more indigenous than European, yet the vast majority of them speak Spanish or Portuguese and their cultures consist mostly of imported European culture.

    As for European Americans, they wiped out the indigenous population, that is why they are the majority there but if you look at much older examples of colonisation, you will find that in most cases, the indigenous population was not replaced but assimilated in favour of the ruling minority. Examples to this would be Hungary, France, Britain, Iraq, North Africa etc. etc.

    you can check what "colony" means too,it was the same case with the ancient greeks,they made colonies all over the Mediterranean and Black Sea,fact is that you try to justify your turanism and steal the achievements of ancient people that lived in Anatolia(many of them massacred by turks later) based on some bs again doesn't impress me in any way.
    Who said anything about impressing you? I know what colony means, but in most instances of ancient colonisation, the colonising party were significantly less numerous than the indigenous population and they mixed into them.

    How am I stealing anyone's achievements in the name of Turanism? You're beginning to look desperate with these irrelevant claims. For what you're saying to be correct, I would have to be claiming that Trojans are proto-Turks or something, which I am not.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-28 at 15:01 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gr2001 View Post
    If Trojans would be genetically similar to other civilisations why ''Greeks'' wouldn't be similar to other civilisations too, remember, there wasn't a Greek identity then as I said, just tribes that probably were sharing some common culture or some common Gods. It's all hypothesis.
    Of course they would, just less similar to western Anatolians, because of the greater distance. I never deny that we are more similar, in culture and physical qualities to Greeks than any other population, but you must consider that these civilisations were probably the same people scattered out across the Anatolian peninsula. So the next closest people would be Greeks, but not as close as they are to each other. Of course this is purely speculation, but it makes sense imo.

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