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And there is no source, and not only that your posting the relationship between two empires/cultures that are right beside, so honestly do you not think they is a relationship? Who copied who, is not going to work as there is no proof who had it first, plus what the heck is a "Semite"...
Anyways a troll thread as there is no source, and why doesnt bleck get an infraction for use a slang such as "sand nigger".
I think that Semitic is not the appropriate designation(being a mythological one),anyway no real (culturally)semite remains nowadays(same as no real Greek nor real Persian).
Arabian will fit well(being as old as 8 th BC and Herodotus and other historians speak always of Arabia and Arabs and not Samia and Semites)if it wasn't that Arab came from the same semitic root as europe(both meaning west from semitic aribi,Asia caming from Akkadian asu=east)and Arabic is more archaic out of all existing Semitic languages.
Real semite would be a Semitic speaking person with a semite monotheist abrahamic religion using a Semitic alphabet and having a semite culture(clothes,achitecture,music,equestry,poetry. ..)
Perhaps Yemenis are the most Semite nation nowadays.
Every culture affects each other,establishes their culture,language,or even race as a mixture;that's the way of improvement of human civilization.It has been the same in the history and will be in the future.
.(even todays,the pronunciation of modern Persan is similar to the one of Iraqi,gulf and levantine dialects of Arabic)
That's the affect of Persian language,every Arabic speaker know this.
The arriving Persians(or let's say the semite of Iran very naturally)adopted semitic Akkadian as their official language and Akkadian aphabet as their official alphabet(later moving to Semitic Aramean as official language and alphabet then to Semitic Arabic and Arabic alphabet).
Akkadian and all the Mesopotamian civilizations,dynesty etc. was mostly established on Sumerians,so do we have right to claim Semits are nothing but a fake Sumerians?
In the modern Persian the word of bread is the Sumerian "nan".
Very interestingly,in the modern Persian coexist different semitic words derived of same semitic roots(for example akkadian GUNAH=sin,and same rooted arabic DJONHE=law enforcement)
If there were very few Sumerian words in Persian,it would be abnormal.All about geography and history.Modern day Turkish has the highlight of Sumerian vocabulary,I'm talking abut 350 Sumerian words.Does it prove anything?
And all those your fotos ''semite bull'',''semite lion'',''Akkadian harp and tanbur'' are decendants of Sumerians,you can find the same in the Sumerian history.
You talk about Shamsh and İshtar,İshtar is Sumerian İnanna,Akkadians only changed the name,all the stories are the same.Semitic god Shamsh is Utu in Sumerian with the same stories.
How do you manage to correlate Dushara with Zoroastra?İt's a local Nebatian god means ''god of Shara mountains''.Actually I'm concerned about Semitic mytology,these claims are useless.
Shara comes from semitic thara meaning the ground,thara=ground,(latin)terra;thuraya=sky,stars .
Dhu means owner of,master of in semite.
Tanbur has a semitic etymology attested even in north afro-asiatic old Egyptian NBR=to make a sound and is present in semitic langauges(including Arabic nabra,nabara=voice scale,to make sound)its sumerian name is pantur which means little bow in sumerian.
Both these instruments are from the Akkadian semite era.
That's the affect of Persian language,every Arabic speaker know this.
It's rather the opposite way when you listen to "real persian"=dari and Tadjiki as you know modern Persian rose in Khorassan not in Persia.
But if you read old Persian,you will see that it was a very rude language with "impossibly" prunuciable words as khshathra which with the locals(semite and hurro-elamite)pronunciation evolved to modern shahr=city.
If there were very few Sumerian words in Persian,it would be abnormal.All about geography and history.Modern day Turkish has the highlight of Sumerian vocabulary,I'm talking abut 350 Sumerian words.Does it prove anything?
There are no direct Sumerian words in Turkic because at this time "turkic"(I dont mean Turkish speaking Anatolian)were far by yhousand of km in northern Mongolia
And all those your fotos ''semite bull'',''semite lion'',''Akkadian harp and tanbur'' are decendants of Sumerians,you can find the same in the Sumerian history.
You talk about Shamsh and İshtar,İshtar is Sumerian İnanna,Akkadians only changed the name,all the stories are the same.Semitic god Shamsh is Utu in Sumerian with the same stories.
How do you manage to correlate Dushara with Zoroastra?İt's a local Nebatian god means ''god of Shara mountains''.Actually I'm concerned about Semitic
mytology,these claims are useless.
Those cultural items are Semite innovations(similar to other semite innovations as the semite canaanite alphabet and monotheism) dating to the akkadian era(or even the later assyrian era)and not to the sumerian one(also they are distinct from the classical sumerian art)and they have western semite counterparts(ishtar,shamsh,bull worship)but of course we can not deny the fact that symbiosis between sumerians and east semites gave birth to a great culture.
Sumerians appears as shaved and fat persons whereas semites as beardy and lon persons.
1/sumerians(some types in iraq-kuweit have some of those "sumerian" features of beardless and being fat)
2/semites
Here some "sumerian looking" mesopotamians
And a sumerian period statue depicting a sumerian man
Last edited by arabturaniran; 2010-01-14 at 14:04.
Shara comes from semitic thara meaning the ground,thara=ground,(latin)terra;thuraya=sky,stars .
Dhu means owner of,master of in semite.
First of all your theory about relation between Dhushara and Zoroastra has some date problem.20 years ago this problem wouldn't occur,but now we know that Zoroastra is older than we thought.
''The date of Zoroaster, i.e., the date of composition of the Old Avestan gathas, is unknown. Dates proposed by reputable scholars diverge widely, between the 18th and 10th centuries BCE.''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster
You may have a look at to this book belong to John F.Healey,one of the major scholars abuout Nebatian dynesty,you can find everything about Dushara,including the theories about his name.http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=...age&q=&f=false
Tanbur has a semitic etymology attested even in north afro-asiatic old Egyptian NBR=to make a sound and is present in semitic langauges(including Arabic nabra,nabara=voice scale,to make sound)its sumerian name is pantur which means little bow in sumerian.
Both these instruments are from the Akkadian semite era.
You allready wrote that it's Sumerian,as you know Sumer is older than AkkadSo how do you insist that it's pure Semitic and Persian just stole it or something?
There are no direct Sumerian words in Turkic because at this time "turkic"(I dont mean Turkish speaking Anatolian)were far by yhousand of km in northern Mongolia
I wrote ''turkish'' not ''turkic''.Read again.
Those cultural items are Semite innovations(similar to other semite innovations as the semite canaanite alphabet and monotheism) dating to the akkadian era(or even the later assyrian era)and not to the sumerian one(also they are distinct from the classical sumerian art)and they have western semite counterparts(ishtar,shamsh,bull worship)but of course we can not deny the fact that symbiosis between sumerians and east semites gave birth to a great culture.
Nice to see you don't deny it.Unless you would be the only one in the world who try to explain Akkadian dynesty and culture without it's Sumerian origines.
As you know Akakdian society was a dual society including Sumerians and Semites,we of course perhaps will never know if the "anonymous" inventer of the tanbur was a Sumerian that gave it an Akkadian name or the contrary.
The Semite noun of this instrument is Semitic tanbur and its sumerian name is pantur(it's a compound noun pan=small+tur=bow)whereas tanbur is a word built upon the semitic akakdian model of derivation tapul(similar to word like talpush=clothing from the semitic root LBS)form the semitic(or Semito-Egyptian as atetsted in the Egyptian word NBR)root NBR.
Many cultural items,words and even gods in the sumero-akkadian society have both semitic name and sumerian name.
It's a very good example that bilingual societies and cultures could be very succesful and respectful of each others,especially when we know that major party of sumerian texts came to us indirectly through akkadian and assyrian bilingual texts well after the extinction of Sumerian language.
So till now we dont know the ethny(ie mother tongue)of the anonymous person inventor of the tanbur ut the fact that it was in the akkadian era and that there is egyptian counterpart and the root NBR is attested also in Egyptian could be suggestive.
---------- Post added 2010-01-14 at 22:52 ----------
What a joke. An idiot hypocrite ressentiment Arab calls Persians "inferior" with their "rude language" while having this in his signature: "Whatever our religion, language or race we are brothers and sisters".
I absolutely sure every non Arab thinks arabic sounds more "rude" than Persian.
The Persians aren't Semites nor were the true Mesopotamians (the Sumerians). On the contrary, it is many of the Iraqis that are pseudosemites.
The Elamites weren't semites either and they inhabited a small part of modern southwestern Iran that is arabic-speaking.
---------- Post added 2010-01-15 at 00:15 ----------
Originally Posted by arabturaniran
Perhaps Yemenis are the most Semite nation nowadays.
The semites probably came from the northern parts of the middle east, actually. I'd bet they where different in comparison with modern day Arabs in Yemen.
What a joke. An idiot hypocrite ressentiment Arab calls Persians "inferior" with their "rude language" while having this in his signature: "Whatever our religion, language or race we are brothers and sisters".
I absolutely sure every non Arab thinks arabic sounds more "rude" than Persian.
The Persians aren't Semites nor were the true Mesopotamians (the Sumerians). On the contrary, it is many of the Iraqis that are pseudosemites.
The Elamites weren't semites either and they inhabited a small part of modern southwestern Iran that is arabic-speaking.
The semites probably came from the northern parts of the middle east, actually. I'd bet they where different in comparison with modern day Arabs in Yemen.
I did not(nor could)say that Persians are "inferior" but older Persian(and to a lesser extent and also Tadjiki Persian)being more rude sounding than modern Persian is a fact.(compare for example old Persian khshathra to modern Persian shahr).
Iraqis are up to 70% hg J and they are surely(both culturally and genetically)more Semite than Persians are Aryans.
Elamites(as well as Kassites and other ancient peoples of Iran)could well have inhabited larger areas but due to the lack of literate societies there,we dont know much of that.
Semite "homeland" is most likely the region of Oman-Yemen,its there were used to coexist so distinct semitic languages(east semitic mehri,west semitic shihi and south semitic soqtori and harsusi)and also it's the land of the greatest diversity of J hg.
I have the impression that Tahrani dialect of modern Persian looks similar in toning and accent to Iraqi and Levantine dialects of Arabic.
But for the case of the standard Arabic and standard Persian languages they both sound somehow rude than say Italian or French but I think standard Arabic as more archaic and ancient language that maintained Arabic sounds as "q","th","dh"...looks more rude than standard Persian(Persian could be more well sounding if not "penalised" by the huge amount of "kh","gh" sounds).
Arabic is rude sounding. Persian is not especially rude sounding. Persian is a soft language actually, with its unusually long vowels, even if we compare with for example German.
No wonder they talk about Arab donkeys in Iran ...
If we compare with many Europeans in general Persians do have quite high R1a frequencies. And Persians have retained much of their Aryan culture. Google Norouz for example. And by the way Aryan is originally an exclusively Indo-Iranian word which has nothing to do with Europeans.
I can understand that you love your country so much but these are simple facts without any derogatory involvements.
Yes Persian sounds pleasant but to European ears,it sounds rude like Greek due to the great presence of "kh" and "gh" phonems.
Here a video of Afghanistan and central Asia Persian,it sounds very rude
Sentences like "tshi khob ghashanqi dokhtar"sounds very rude even for an Arab dont even think of Europeans,due to the great extent of "kh","gh","q","sh"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qnn80IB36s
Norouz is middle-eastern related very probably to Akkadian akitu and was not brought or innovated by Indo-Europeans.
As for R1a it's not an indo-european marker,highest rate of R1a in the world is amongst mongoloid Kyrghiz and R1a dont make much more than 25% in Iran in the best figures. http://thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm
Iran
J=32%(Iraqis 60%,Assyrians 50%)
R1=23%(lower than Semite Assyrians who have 35%R1 and closer to Iraqis who have 18%R1)
C,N,Q(Hg's brought by the Mongols)=12%(Iraqis and Assyrians=0%)
E1b1b1(my Hg)=11%(Iraqis 11%,Assyrian 0%)
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So how do you insist that it's pure Semitic and Persian just stole it or something?
Originally Posted by arabturaniran
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