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Thread: Question about R-M2691775 days old

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    Default Question about R-M269

    I would like to know the origin of this haplogroup, I know it comes from R1b1b2, but I want to know specifically it's relation with Belgium and France, because my first 12 markers have been uploaded on my Family Tree DNA account, and so far it puts me in the category of Belgian Kelto-Germanic.

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    R-M269 is the same thing as R1b1b2. It isn't a subclade of it. R-M269 reaches it's highest levels of diversity in Anatolia and Iberia. The R-M269 in Anatolia forms a more star-like pattern than the R-M269 samples taken from European populations, so it would appear that R-M269 came from Anatolia and moved to Europe from there.

    As to when R1b1b2 originated, honestly, no one knows. Age estimates are just that, estimates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    R-M269 is the same thing as R1b1b2. It isn't a subclade of it. R-M269 reaches it's highest levels of diversity in Anatolia and Iberia. The R-M269 in Anatolia forms a more star-like pattern than the R-M269 samples taken from European populations, so it would appear that R-M269 came from Anatolia and moved to Europe from there.

    As to when R1b1b2 originated, honestly, no one knows. Age estimates are just that, estimates.
    I think M-269 reaches its highest frequency in Iberia (or close to it) but is not nearly as diverse and certainly does not register as one of the diversity hot spots.

    M-269 almost certainly began its explosive expansion after reaching europe and spread to the entire continent with the neolithic technological/cultural package. Best candidate cultures which correlates with this expansion is Sesklo (thessaly) then Vinca and cucuteni-trypolie in modern Serbia, Romania, Moldova (these are my own best guesses but I am willing to put serious money on them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geto-Thracian View Post
    I think M-269 reaches its highest frequency in Iberia (or close to it) but is not nearly as diverse and certainly does not register as one of the diversity hot spots.)


    R1b1b2's diversity in the Iberian peninsula is almost as high as it is in Anatolia. It is just a little lower in Iberia. At least, according to the calculations performed by Argiedude and others at DNA forums. I have not double checked these calculations, so I am not 100% sure about this, but Argiedude is usually spot on.

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    Iberian R1b1b2 is mostly R1b1b2a1a2* and its subclades (R-P312 subclades). In Anatolia most of the R1b1b2 is L11- (not R1b1b2a1a - RP310 - and its subclades RU106 and RP312, the most common in Western Europe), the ancestral type.
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2010-02-12 at 02:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    R1b1b2's diversity in the Iberian peninsula is almost as high as it is in Anatolia.
    What would be the cause/reason as to the high levels of diversity of R1b1b2* found within both Anatolia and Iberia? Does this suggest that both Anatolia and Iberia were both on the receiving end of a European exodus during the last ice age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChechenRebelZ View Post
    What would be the cause/reason as to the high levels of diversity of R1b1b2* found within both Anatolia and Iberia? Does this suggest that both Anatolia and Iberia were both on the receiving end of a European exodus during the last ice age?
    I would guess that R1b1b2 originally wasn't common in Iberia, but later on it began to thrive untill it became the most common. As to why it was so succesful in Iberia? I don't know the exact factors involved.

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    Actually, you should just disregard my post. I confused R1b1b2a1a with R1b1b2; my mistake.

    The highest points of diversity for R1b1b2* are Anatolia and Italy.

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    The aforementioned user from D-F is a very skilled genetic genealogist who I've had the honour of being involved with in the past.

    However, as regular viewers of the above site will gauge from some of his threads, he sometimes recants the conclusions of his investigations.

    As such, I am unsure how or why he reached this conclusion of high R1b1b2 variance in the Iberian Peninsula. The above user has been active on the site for years, and some of his older threads were created in the era when haplogroup R1b was associated with Mesolithic hunters (i.e. Cro-Magnon people).

    Perhaps an out-of-date thread dating back to ~2007-8 was cited, and is being inadvertently merged with the latest interpretation of R1b1b2 diversity, which clearly shows a NE-to-SW cline in Europe, with Anatolia being the most diverse region.

    If Rochefaton would kindly show me the thread in question privately, I would truly appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChechenRebelZ View Post
    What would be the cause/reason as to the high levels of diversity of R1b1b2* found within both Anatolia and Iberia? Does this suggest that both Anatolia and Iberia were both on the receiving end of a European exodus during the last ice age?
    I've outlined the possible confusion in R1b1b2 variance above. As far as I am aware, R1b1b2 is most diverse in Anatolia and the notion of increased diversity in Iberia is an old one. Three years is a long time in such a fast-paced and young branch of population genetics.

    [Edit]: Just read Rochefaton's new post, disregard the above request please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    The aforementioned user from D-F is a very skilled genetic genealogist who I've had the honour of being involved with in the past.

    However, as regular viewers of the above site will gauge from some of his threads, he sometimes recants the conclusions of his investigations.

    As such, I am unsure how or why he reached this conclusion of high R1b1b2 variance in the Iberian Peninsula. The above user has been active on the site for years, and some of his older threads were created in the era when haplogroup R1b was associated with Mesolithic hunters (i.e. Cro-Magnon people).

    Perhaps an out-of-date thread dating back to ~2007-8 was cited, and is being inadvertently merged with the latest interpretation of R1b1b2 diversity, which clearly shows a NE-to-SW cline in Europe, with Anatolia being the most diverse region.

    If Rochefaton would kindly show me the thread in question privately, I would truly appreciate it.





    I've outlined the possible confusion in R1b1b2 variance above. As far as I am aware, R1b1b2 is most diverse in Anatolia and the notion of increased diversity in Iberia is an old one. Three years is a long time in such a fast-paced and young branch of population genetics.

    [Edit]: Just read Rochefaton's new post, disregard the above request please.
    I think you meant SE to NW as to diversity and frequency, surely.
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