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Thread: who were the indus valley people?1071 days old

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    Default who were the indus valley people?

    who were the indus valley people and who were they related too?? has any one done dna testing on the indus skeletons?

    also were skeletons radio active? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCEY6CcW8O4
    Last edited by pakistani; 2012-01-12 at 00:12.

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    bump

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    Something like





    Never heard of the 'atomic' explanation... seems to be a bit fishy though.
    "... musical training can strongly protect the aging brain from a cognitive decay." (Claudio Brigati et al 2012)

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    ^ I thought they would be darker? similar to south indians?

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    Either austroloids or the ambiguous Caucasoid group that the Elamites and Sumerians were. Possibly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    ^ I thought they would be darker? similar to south indians?
    Keep in mind that this man is a Brahui, and ethnic group found in Balochistan, south of Pakistan, and their language fall into the (wide) 'Dravidian' category. Also, the Dravidian 'phenotype' does not equate to 'South Indian' or the generic looks generally associated with it (different elements of Veddid influences) in our South Asian psyche; on the contrarily, it - the 'original' Dravidians - could have been some Caucasoid, esp. 'proto-Mediterranean' group, ethnically related to today's (?) Punjab, Sindh and Balochistan, the Balochistan where the said Brahuis now live (as a minority).
    An excerpt from Sir John Marshall's Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization, 1998, pp. 109-110, which sums up the situation about what a Dravidian really is and he really looks is difficult to assess - but his work is nearly a century old now (despite the continuous re-editions), and, for sure, he missed a lot of discoveries... anyway:

    Spoiler: 
    ... to return to the supposed connection between the Indus people and the Sumerians, it may be recalled that, before anything whatever had been discovered of the Indus civilization, Dr H.R. Hall proposed to locate the homeland of the Sumerians somewhere to the east of Mesopotamia, and suggested that they might belond to the same ethnic type as the Dravidians of India, who, though now restricted to the South of India, are believed on linguistic and ethnological grounds to have once populated virtually the whole of the peninsula, including the Pandjâb, Sind and Baluchistan, where, as is well known, the Dravidian speech is still preserved in the language of the Brahuis.

    Following on the discoveries at Mohenjo-daro and Harappa which revealed various points of resemblance between the material cultures of these places and of Sumer, it was natural that a fresh impetus should be given to this theory and that the resemblances referred to should be interpreted as additional proof of its correctness. Pending, however, the discovery of further evidence, it is well that we should realize on what a very insecure basis this theory really rests.

    What, in effect, is the supposed similarity of type between these two races - the Sumerian and the Dravidian - which is coming to be accepted as an established fact ? Sir Arthur Keith says that the people who spoke Sumerian were dolichocephalic, with large brain capacity, like a certain section of the pre-dynastic Egyptians and like the present-day Mesopotamians. "They had", he writes, "big, long, and narrow heads; their affinities were with the peoples of the Caucasian or European type, and we may regard South-western Asia as their cradle-land until evidence leading to a different conclusion comes to light." Mr. Woolley also states that, judging by their physical type, the Sumerians "were of the Indo-European stock, in appearance not unlike the modern Arab". On the other hand, Professor Langdon holds the view that the dolichocephalic skulls found at Kish were Semitic and the brachycephalic ones Sumerian. If, however, were are uncertain about the physical type of the Sumerians, we are just as uncertain about that of the ancient Dravidians, for the very good reason that we possess no remains whatever that can be identified with them. The modern Dravidian stock is officially described as being "of short stature, complexion very dark, approaching black; hair plentiful, with an occasional tendency to curl; eyes dark, head long, nose very broad, sometimes depressed at the root but not as to make the face appear flat".

    It would be absurd to assume that this represents the Dravidian type of 5,000 years ago. In the case of the Brahui-speaking people of Baluchistan we know that, though they have preserved the Dravidian speech of their ancestors, they have entirely failed to preserve their racial character, which thanks to continuous recruitment from without has now become mainly Iranian; and we know, also, that the Dravidian type in the south of the peninsula has been largely transformed by the free admixture of the aboriginal, i.e. Proto-Australoid, blood as well perhaps other elements. So shadowy, indeed, is the distinction between the Dravidians and many of the aboriginals, that in the case of the Munda-speaking people most authorities incline to doubt if any distinction at all can be drawn.

    Any attempt, therefore, to equate the Sumerians with the ancient Dravidians is complicated at the outset by the difficulty of defining either the Sumerian or the Dravidian type.

    If, as most authorities on the subject maintain, the Dravidians came out of the West and entered India as invaders, we might supposed that they were originally related to the Meditteraneans who are represented at Kish, Anau, Nal, and Mohenjo-daro (where the largest proportion of skulls belong to this type), and that the type was subsequently transformed in India itself by intermarriage with proto-Australoids and others. If, however, they were indigenous, as others hold, in India, we must suppose that they were proto-Australoid in origin and developed their Dravidian character by intermingling with foreign elements and by process of natural evolution. But, in whatever direction they may have moved, whether from East to West or West to East, it would obviously be very rash in the present uncertain state of our knowledge to endeavour to identify as "Dravidian" either skulls classed by Colonel Sewell as Proto-Asutraloid or those classed as Mediterranean; rasher still to identify any of these skulls as "Sumerians".
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    I believe that the bulk of the people who live in the Indus Valley today are the descendants of the people of the Indus Valley Civilization. Due to invasions/migrations of different groups, the present day population has a "mixed" ancestral lineage but that does not divorce them from the founding populations of the region. Although, I would suspect that the "low-caste" groups have a higher degree of physical similarity and genetic relationship with the people of the Indus Valley civilization and so they would tend to resemble people from those groups:




















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    ^we can't know, the whole of today's Pakistan has witness foreign invasions, esp. during its pre-Islamic period, not even talking of the inter-South Asian pop. movements. They could have looked like that, or like the Baloch who inhabit these areas nowadays:





    Your pictures seem to be from Sindh mainly, what is now called Saraikistan ('inner' Punjab) and the in-between, the Cholistan desert (picture #9, typical of the folk musicians who, ironically I've remarked in some weddings, tend to be darker than the general population, and form a 'caste' of their own...)
    I don't know if it could represent them all, because, once again, of the area's diversity: for Sindh, there are a lot of Marwaris from Rajasthan, who look different from the 'ethnic' Sindhis; and even amongst Sindhis (or Punjabis, or Tamils, etc) people point out caste-based differences because of the facial features, etc so we can't say which ethnic/caste group may look like the ancient Dravidians.
    "... musical training can strongly protect the aging brain from a cognitive decay." (Claudio Brigati et al 2012)

    Mun tu shudam tu mun shudi,
    Mun tun shudam tu jaan shudi.
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    Mun deegaram tu deegari.

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    Sindh and Inner Punjab are where the two most prominent Indus Valley sites are located. You find these phenotypes all throughout Punjab and Sindh, especially along the rivers.

    Given how these phenotypes also show up in decreasing proportions among higher caste populations who tend to speak about foreign origins, I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that they form the bedrock indigenious population of the area.

    I think it is very unlikely they looked anything like those Baloch. The Baloch are very much related to modern Persians/Indo-Aryans, relative newcomers to the region who in Balochistan probably mixed with other invaders (Arabs) and the aboriginal indigenous population who IMO, most likely resembled the folks from Sindh and inner Punjab, particularly among the lowest castes and marginalized groups. The Brahui are very mixed as well, so not much can be made from their looks either.

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    Yeah i also suspect majority looked like the pictures posted by userwithoutname. though we have to remember there are is a statue of some priest or king from indus valley which looks very (iranian) like. Perhaps the upper class of the society was more Iranian like. Kinda like today actually

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