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Thread: Etymology of Dzeus Keraunos in proto-Indo-European [split] //mod2765 days old

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    Default Etymology of Dzeus Keraunos in proto-Indo-European [split] //mod

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    For me clear traces of Slavic influences in Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek are the evidence for that. Therefore I consider studying those languages and cultures as the most important ways of learning about our past. I suggest that you do the same, and only then we would have a meaningful discussion.
    Could you point out the Slavic influences in Vedic Sanskrit?

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Elias, Slavic languages are more conservative and archaic then Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek. We are discovering that many important words, like names of Gods, spiritual activities and other in Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek which do not have etymology, i.e. nobody knows what they really mean and where they come from, can be explained when we look for those explanations in Slavic common speech and we see that for example they are not really names of Gods but names of certain qualities or activities. See for example Vedic sacred words: svaha, vashat, aum – they don’t know what they mean, but we know. Or Greek gods Okeanos, Poseidon, Dzeus Keraunos – it is all Slavic.

    It is difficult to explain in few words but we can see how certain grammatical forms and certain words in Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek originated from Slavic languages i.e. Slavic languages still poses the original forms. It is all in agreement with genetics, anthropology and archeology which tell us that there were some migrations from Central and Eastern Europe to Asia, Balkans and Anatolia during the Bronze Age.

    Elias, I am convinced that western linguistic and PIE reconstruction is crap but it will take some time and effort to prove because the establishment will defend that crap with all its might. I am happy that there are open minded people like you that are interested and willing to look into the matter.
    I looked up "Dzeus Keraunos", this is what I found:

    Had Jakobson known this passage he would surely have cited it; for in a syntactically and formulaically highly marked context (word order Verb—Object—Subject; verb—enclitic relative pronoun, etc.), it encapsulates not just the myth of Dios precipitating himself on Zemelo, but the whole and total mythological system of the chief god of the Proto-Slavic pantheon Perun, and of his female paredra Perperuna, as elucidated long ago by Jakobson himself. For it collocates not only Father Zeus but keraunós (= Slavic god Perun) with Semela the earth to be fructified — living after dying — Semela who corresponds exactly to the Slavic female counterpart of Perun Perperuna, the naked girl covered with leaves in the ritual, just like Dionysos (son of Semele and Zeus) ‘with ivy in his hands’ (kissophóros).
    — Roman Jakobson, A Tribute to Roman Jakobson, 1896-1982, ISBN 3110097966, p. 45

    And this one was certainly enlightening:

    The Slavic word is a so-called nomen agentis, its stem is the IE., Slavic, and Baltic per- ‘to strike, to hit’ (cf. Proto-Slavic *perti-, Latv. pert, Lith. perti ‘to strike, to hit’), and from that perun—Perun ‘that which—who strikes, hits’, which is the same as the noun from the permanent attribute of Zeus Keraunos ‘the striking, the thundering’. The trouble is that the perk- stem as the basis of the Lith. Perkūnas is only apparent in this one word, and otherwise is absent in the Baltic and the Slavic languages. In this way, nothing deters the connection of the two stems (perk- and per-), and indeed the most striking of etymologies sprang up. The word was associated with words meaning ‘oak’, ‘oak wood’ > ‘oak god’ [Latin quercus, Old High German farha (once) ‘pine’, (today) ‘oak’, Old Nordic Fjorgynn ‘oak god, the mother of the god Thor’, Celtic Hercynia silva the collective expression for the ‘chain of hills from the Danube's source to Dacia’, originally ‘oak (pine) forest’, etc.]. The idea of connecting the thunder god with the oak god springs from the unreliable E. Stella and S. Grunau. Their identification reached only as far as Perkūnas the god of thunder living in an oak tree, so the pagans would also adore the tree as a sacred being. Many modern linguists go further, starting with H. Hirt in the nineteenth century. Lightening would sanctify the object it hit, and because this was often an oak on a mountain peak, or the peak itself, rock, thunder, and oak as well as their deities came to be identified, and that, of course, already happened in the ancient Indo-European period (Gamkrelidze-Ivanov 1984/II, 615).
    — Endre Bojtár, Foreword to the past: a cultural history of the Baltic people, Central European University Press, 1999, ISBN 9639116424, p. 285

    ^^ Academic source. And this one was most interesting:

    Like the religious terminology, the pantheon of the Slavs offers more Common Slavic than tribal features, and partly points to Indo-European roots, or at least shows Indo-Iranian, especially Iranian, and perhaps Thraco-Phrygian, connections. It was hinted by Prokopios, and six centuries later observed by Helmold, that among the multiform divine powers worshipped by the Slavs, one is believed to rule over the others in heaven and to care for celestial things, “whereas the rest, obeying the duties assigned them, have sprung from his blood and enjoy distinction in proportion to their nearness to that god of gods”. The scattered data we possess on the Slavic deities, and in particular on their mutual kinship and hierarchy, do not permit us to reconstruct this whole system. Nevertheless there are indications arguing for kinship and hierarchy. The storm god Perun is closely connected by name and functions with the Vedic Parjánya, with the Lithuanian (as a matter of fact, Common Baltic) Perkúnas (replaceable under tabu Perúnas), with the Norse Fjorgynn (supposed to be the archaic designation for the Thunderer) and with the Albanian Perëndi, now denoting both “god” and “sky”. It is probable that Greek Keraunós “thunderbolt” (used also in epithets of the thunder-god) is a rhyme-word substituted for a tabued *Peraunós. The Indo-European name for this hypostasis of a sky divinity contains, beside a nasal suffix, the alternating verbal root per-/perkw- (or perg-), signifying “to strike, to splinter”, and used particularly of lightning. This root appears, e.g. in Latin and Germanic, as a substitute name for the oak, a tree favored by the thunderstorm and devoted to the thunder god; and in the Indo-European tradition the same root with a nasal suffix denotes the “oak-wooded hill” — Celtic-Latin Hercynia (Silva), Gothic fairguni, Slavic *pergynja (Old Church Slavonic pregynja, Old Russian peregynja, Polish przeginia). The leading role of Perun in Russian heathenism, the connection of the oak with this god, and the veneration of the peregynja are closely attested by Russian sources. Perun was identified with Thor by the Varangians, with Zeus by the Russian bookmen, and with Elijah in Christianized folklore. Outside Russia, the god Perun, distorted to Prone and worshipped in oak-groves, appears in Helmold's Chronicle; Perun's son Porenutius figures in the mythological records of Saxo Grammaticus; Perun's name is echoed in Slovak maledictions (Peron, Parom), in the Polabian word for Thursday (peründan), in such appellatives for thunder and lightning as the Polish piorun and the Bulgarian folklore form perušan, as well as in West and South Slavic proper names, both personal and local, these mostly linked with oak-forest or hill.
    — Roman Jakobson, Selected writings, Volume 7, ISBN 3110106175, pp. 5-6

    For those of you interested in this man:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Jakobson

    I now understand why the Celtic grove god vampire who turned Marius de Romanus into a vampire in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, lived under an oak tree. I've always said Anne Rice wrote her vampire books with Indo-European mythology in mind (it's so strikingly obvious in her books; most vampires are white Europeans from Celtic, Roman, Germanic and Slavic tribes, and the non-Europeans are Anglo-Indians like David Talbot; whiteness is emphasised as they get older and whiter; whiteness is associated with power and strength; Lestat and Marius have blue eyes and blond hair and were chosen for immortality specifically for these pigmentation traits, and so on; all this suggests an emphasis on white supremacy too).
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-03-20 at 22:20. Reason: fixed broken emphasis
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    There aren't any Slavic influences in Vedic Sanskrit other than those shared because they are both IE and both Satem.

    EastPole is the dumbass who believes in Some sort of Slavic-Indo-Iranian Unity but denies the connection that Slavic has to German and Baltic.

    The dumbass thinks proto Slavs participated in the Indo-Iranian hypothesis yet South and Central Asia are overwhelmingly Z93+.

    Slavic tribes on living on the steepe is called Russian colonialism. No such Slavic-Indo-Iranian continuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    There aren't any Slavic influences in Vedic Sanskrit other than those shared because they are both IE and both Satem.
    It's not so much about Slavic as it is about the Indo-European core in Vedic Sanskrit resembling proto-Slavic more than it resembles for example proto-Germanic. Obviously, proto-Slavic and modern Slavic languages are not proto-Indo-European, but they seem to be fairly conservative daughter languages of proto-Indo-European.

    Sanskrit Parjánya, Norse Fjörgynn, Greek Keraunós, and Albanian Perëndi are all derived from proto-Indo-European and Balto-Slavic per-, of which Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkúnas are obviously closer to the original PIE root. And that is visible in how the name has changed in its daughter languages; Germanic Fjörgynn follows the proto-Germanic sound laws in which P changed into F (pater>father), so the Germanic cognate and its Greek counterpart are less conservative than the Balto-Slavic cognate and other IE languages, because they changed more radically by the loss of the original P consonant.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    EastPole is the dumbass who believes in Some sort of Slavic-Indo-Iranian Unity but denies the connection that Slavic has to German and Baltic.
    I must admit, that is a little bit odd, especially Baltic.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    The dumbass thinks proto Slavs participated in the Indo-Iranian hypothesis yet South and Central Asia are overwhelmingly Z93+.
    Where do you think that Z93 came from?

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Slavic tribes on living on the steepe is called Russian colonialism. No such Slavic-Indo-Iranian continuity.
    Sure, but we're talking about proto-Slavic here, not modern geopolitics.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-03-21 at 06:08. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    ...we're talking about proto-Slavic here, not modern geopolitics.
    This is exactly the point!
    The intent was to try'n'scrutinize raw data, not interpretations.
    Geopolitics or candid views will not yield the result hoped for.
    First move was made by Elias - the deities, especially etymology of deities already gives food for thought, if one is prepared to depart from biased views.
    Last edited by TruthSeeker; 2012-03-20 at 13:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    the deities, especially etymology of deities already gives food for thought, if one is prepared to depart from biased views.
    Indeed. The oldest attested thundergods at Europe are A) Zeus (Hellenic deity) and B) Jupiter (Roman deity). Both are attested in literature since antiquity. Baltoslavic Perkunas/Perun indeed does resemble Vedic Parjánya in name. Difference is ofcource long distance, both in time and space, separating the Vedic Aryans and Baltoslavs.

    Since we know that oldest attested European thundergods are Zeus&Jupiter, while contemporary Vedic Aryans worshipped rain-thunder deity Parjánya.

    Parjánya-like naming scheme pops up later at Europe with Baltoslavs.

    This leaves only one possibility which is transfer of cultural trait from Indo-Iranians to Baltoslavs. Perhaps we are talking about late Scythians or maybe Sarmatians as loaners ?

    Elias' quote also points to this direction:

    the pantheon of the Slavs offers more Common Slavic than tribal features, and partly points to Indo-European roots, or at least shows Indo-Iranian, especially Iranian, and perhaps Thraco-Phrygian, connections
    So the Common Slavic speaking people (which is period after the proto-Slavonic, "tribal", but before the dialectisation separating it into daughter languages) hold pantheon which was loaned from Indo-Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Indeed. The oldest attested thundergods at Europe are A) Zeus (Hellenic deity) and B) Jupiter (Roman deity)...
    Ay yay yay..... once again trying to smudge a worthy effort.....
    Has it ever occurred to you to consider historic events as things proven and things probable?
    Or printed/spoken views are an imperative for you?
    Have you ever tried to put on a timeline the sequence of historic events, each one marked with an attribute (attested [credible/not so credible], non-attested probable [low, medium, high], non-attested possible [hinted/predetermined by....]...)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    Have you ever tried to put on a timeline the sequence of historic events, each one marked with an attribute (attested [credible/not so credible], non-attested probable [low, medium, high], non-attested possible [hinted/predetermined by....]...)?
    Yes and I also just did.

    From oldest to youngest:

    1) Zeus of Greeks and Parjanya of Vedic Aryans
    2-3) Jupiter of Romans
    2-3) Arrival of Scythians to East Europe
    4) Arrival of Sarmatians to East Europe
    5) Appearance of Common Slavonic language (around 400 AD)
    6) Slavonic pantheon is heavily Indo-Iranian
    7) Christianisation of Slavs (from 700 AD - 1000 AD)

    "Indo-Iranian" pantheon of Slavs did not really even exist that long, few centuries at max.
    Last edited by Hweinlant; 2012-03-20 at 19:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Yes and I also just did.

    From oldest to youngest:

    1) Zeus of Greeks and Parjanya of Vedic Aryans
    2-3) Jupiter of Romans.......
    Well, there you go - only attested things matter for you, but Elias pointed out that your number one above might have been a product of earlier beliefs....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Indeed. The oldest attested thundergods at Europe are A) Zeus (Hellenic deity) and B) Jupiter (Roman deity). Both are attested in literature since antiquity. Baltoslavic Perkunas/Perun indeed does resemble Vedic Parjánya in name. Difference is ofcource long distance, both in time and space, separating the Vedic Aryans and Baltoslavs.
    It's the other way around: Vedic Parjánya resembles Balto-Slavic Perkúnas/Perun, because they are all derived from PIE *Perkwunos. The Balto-Slavic cognates—especially the Baltic—are closer to the original reconstructed PIE term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Since we know that oldest attested European thundergods are Zeus&Jupiter, while contemporary Vedic Aryans worshipped rain-thunder deity Parjánya.
    Zeus and Jupiter are literally the same deity, and both their names are derived from the god "sky father" (*Dyēus Phatēr). Parjánya is actually the same god as Zeus/Jupiter, just a different name (cf. Elohim and YHWH being different names for the same god in Judeo-Christianity). Did you not pay attention when EastPole called him "Dzeus Keraunos"? That's almost the full name of the proto-Indo-European deity *Dyēus Phatēr Perkwunos, which basically means, Striking Day Father (i.e., God almighty strikes with thunder from the clouds during bright daylight; which was the basic concept of the most powerful god in the proto-Indo-Europeans' world-view).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Parjánya-like naming scheme pops up later at Europe with Baltoslavs.
    Not really. They were always around. Keep in mind that the Balto-Slavs (much like the Celts) weren't a literate people and that is why so little of their culture is preserved from ancient times and it is first until their Christianisation when Balto-Slavic languages are recorded.

    Since the proto-Indo-Europeans were an illiterate people, they had an oral tradition; they passed on their culture orally from generation to generation (the Celtic druid priests were also known for doing this, by the way) and this tradition continued among pagan Indo-European daughter languages like the Balto-Slavs until they were Christianised. The Slavs were Christianised earlier than the Balts, so Slavic languages appear in recorded history a few centuries earlier than Lithuanian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    This leaves only one possibility which is transfer of cultural trait from Indo-Iranians to Baltoslavs. Perhaps we are talking about late Scythians or maybe Sarmatians as loaners ?
    This is complete nonsense and highly unlikely. Extremely unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Elias' quote also points to this direction:



    So the Common Slavic speaking people (which is period after the proto-Slavonic, "tribal", but before the dialectisation separating it into daughter languages) hold pantheon which was loaned from Indo-Iranians.
    No, nothing in the excerpt I quoted supports what you say; it says very specifically, that the Slavic religious terminology... points to Indo-European roots and has a connection with Indo-Iranian, not that it is a loanword from Iranian, but connected to Iranian.

    You might as well say Fjörgynn was borrowed from the Scythians too, and you'd have tremendous difficulties explaining how come Fjörgynn follows proto-Germanic sound laws (I hear it's also pronounced Fjörkynn with a K but spelled with a G for some reason; I'm not sure about this, just what I heard today when I asked a Swedish co-worker who happens to be interested in paganism). The F in Fjörgynn follows proto-Germanic sound laws, so Fjörgynn is also reconstructible to *Perkwunos; which means it's not just Balto-Slavs but also the proto-Germanics had this cognate intact. In proto-Germanic the P changed into F and the K changed into G, whereas in Sanskrit the P was kept and the K changed into J. In Slavic, the K was dropped but it was preserved in Baltic.

    Don't take my word for it though:

    Of course, there is no Greek thunder-god whose name corresponds to Perun, Perkunas, Parjanya, Fjörgynn, etc., and becomes, when altered, Persephone, Pherrephatta, Proserpina, etc. We know only of the κεραυνός and κορύνη in Greek, which seem to be altered forms of this name but altered in a quite different manner from Persephone, etc. It would seem that this Indo-European name of the thunder-god was completely lost among the Greek-speaking peoples and survives only in altered form as a name for the female counterpart of the god in his underworld aspect. Perhaps closest to the original form of the name, but likewise the name of a female figure, is the nymph Herkyna (cf. Celtic Hercynia Silva), a playmate and virtual double of Kore (Persephone) at Lebadeia in Boeotia, after whom an underground stream is named.
    Myth in Indo-European Antiquity, University of California Press, 1974, ISBN 0520023781, p. 117

    ^^ Exactly like Mallory pointed out about the non-Indo-European substratum in Greek. Your Scythian loanwords to Balto-Slavic hypothesis holds no weight, because Sanskrit has no K in Parjánya and Sanskrit is certainly older than whatever Iranian dialects the Scythians spoke at the time when they were assimilated amongst the Slavs.

    Also, see this chapter:

    The Kinship of Slavic and Norse Mythologies: the Problem of Perun-Perkun-Perkunas-Fjörgyn(n)
    — Yves Bonnefoy, American, African, and Old European mythologies, University of Chicago Press, 1993, ISBN 0226064573, p. 248

    So try again and give me another one.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-03-21 at 06:07.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Okay, so in examining the name for the thunder-god deity, let's have a look at its daughter language cognates:

    PIE: *Perkwunos

    Albanian: Perëndi
    Baltic: Perkúnas
    Celtic: Hercynia
    Germanic: Fjörgynn
    Hellenic: Keraunós (proto-Hellenic *Peraunós)
    Indic: Parjánya
    Slavic: Perun

    In my opinion, Baltic is the most conservative of these cognates, and Slavic is a close second. The proto-Greek *Peraunós could have been the most conservative but it has never been attested (it's still hypothetical until they find some archaeological evidence that verifies its existence) and it lost the K. Or maybe it was *Perkaunós at an earlier stage?

    The most modified are Celtic Hercynia and Hellenic Keraunós, and Germanic Fjörgynn is also quite modified but Fjörgynn is perhaps somewhat closer to the original PIE name than Keraunós.

    In my opinion, and dare I say it, I think there's a correlation here between the dominance of R-M17 and the lack of dominance R-M17; the proto-Celts must have had less of R-M17 males because modern Celtic nations today are mostly R1b, and without the original male Indo-European core (and thereby, priestly class) or at least lacking enough of the Indo-European priestly class, some of the sound laws in the daughter languages experienced a radical shift in consonant and vowel change as they were gradually spoken by non-Indo-Europeans. A holy name like *Perkwunos shifted more in proto-Celtic with the loss of a significant part of the core R-M17 priests keeping the name and culture intact. Armenians for example, have a very tiny frequency of R-M17 and they don't even seem to have the "thunder" name intact at all, not that I could find anyway.

    Of course, this is just a hypothesis though and probably not correct. But it's food for thought.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-03-21 at 09:01. Reason: clarify; armenians
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    Quoted for truth:
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    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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