Where are more masculine men: Finland or Estonia?

[Põhjamaalane]

I haven't watched this thread in a while, but as usual, Balts take over any thread where the discussion is about Estonia and Finland. Already mentioning Estonia and Finland in the same sentence makes their blood boil.

Now we see another common act, Balts claiming that something that they use, is not of native Finnic origin, but Baltic. Be it Finno-Ugric symbols used as far as Udmurtia, or refrain songs sang by the oldest settled people in Europe.



The remarkable aspect here is that the songs sung by some illiterate Setu singers have been estimated to be over 5000 years old and several experts claim the Setu people to be the oldest settled people in Europe – they have not participated in any migrations.

5000 years ago, Balts didn't even exist yet....

[Jaska]

The remarkable aspect here is that the songs sung by some illiterate Setu singers have been estimated to be over 5000 years old and several experts claim the Setu people to be the oldest settled people in Europe – they have not participated in any migrations.

5000 years ago, Balts didn't even exist yet....

You are just so blind!

Lack of migrations CANNOT TESTIFY any ethnic continuity - it can testify only genetic continuity, and that is to some extent visible everywhere. It is impossible that Setu ethnos could have been there 5 000 years ago, because Uralic language didn't reach the area until around 3500 years ago.

Even Mikko Korhonen has guessed that Kalevalamitta, four-foot trokee, was born from Baltic influence, because it is not known outside Finnic peoples. But actually there is something similar in Tundra Nenets language, but there it is either six or eight syllable metre (= 3 or 4 footed), and there is no certainty that the eight-syllable metre would be the original. But if it was original, it could be considered already a Proto-Uralic metre.

[Põhjamaalane]

You are just so blind!

Lack of migrations CANNOT TESTIFY any ethnic continuity - it can testify only genetic continuity, and that is to some extent visible everywhere. It is impossible that Setu ethnos could have been there 5 000 years ago, because Uralic language didn't reach the area until around 3500 years ago.

Even Mikko Korhonen has guessed that Kalevalamitta, four-foot trokee, was born from Baltic influence, because it is not known outside Finnic peoples. But actually there is something similar in Tundra Nenets language, but there it is either six or eight syllable metre (= 3 or 4 footed), and there is no certainty that the eight-syllable metre would be the original. But if it was original, it could be considered already a Proto-Uralic metre.

Singing the same songs in the same language (which has evolved through time, of course) for the past 5000 years to year 2012 isn't ethnic continuity? Read the article.

Logically there were no "Setos" back then, but just Finno-Ugrians.

[Jaska]

Singing the same songs in the same language (which has evolved through time, of course) for the past 5000 years to year 2012 isn't ethnic continuity? Read the article.

I have corrected your unscientific crap many times before, but you still choose to believe in them. Why? Why your whole identity and the quality of life is so dependent on the supposed ancientness of your folk? You are just an EastPole in disguise. Sad, isn't it?

1. There are no proves, only lame "songs -- have been estimated to be over 5000 years old".
2. Even if the songs were that old, it cannot prove anything about language: songs are easily translated. Old motifs remain long times, even when the language is replaced by another.
3. Again your beliefs ignore all the scientific evidence, without even trying to present any scientific support or argumentation.

[Lemminkäinen]

I haven't watched this thread in a while, but as usual, Balts take over any thread where the discussion is about Estonia and Finland. Already mentioning Estonia and Finland in the same sentence makes their blood boil.

I have noticed this several times, it looks a bit symptomatic

Now we see another common act, Balts claiming that something that they use, is not of native Finnic origin, but Baltic. Be it Finno-Ugric symbols used as far as Udmurtia, or refrain songs sang by the oldest settled people in Europe.



The remarkable aspect here is that the songs sung by some illiterate Setu singers have been estimated to be over 5000 years old and several experts claim the Setu people to be the oldest settled people in Europe – they have not participated in any migrations.

5000 years ago, Balts didn't even exist yet....

Yeah, present Balts mostly came during the Migration Period from east, although mixed with old locals.

---------- Post added 2012-07-11 at 08:45 ----------

I have corrected your unscientific crap many times before, but you still choose to believe in them. Why? Why your whole identity and the quality of life is so dependent on the supposed ancientness of your folk? You are just an EastPole in disguise. Sad, isn't it?

1. There are no proves, only lame "songs -- have been estimated to be over 5000 years old".
2. Even if the songs were that old, it cannot prove anything about language: songs are easily translated. Old motifs remain long times, even when the language is replaced by another.
3. Again your beliefs ignore all the scientific evidence, without even trying to present any scientific support or argumentation.

Now it looks like you react too keenly. He didnt claim that Finns and Estonians are oldest people in the Baltic region, but something about the culture. I wonder why because you usually argue claiming that in a long history the FInns are a very close ethnic group. Dont try to squirm out of this opinion of yours

[Jaska]

Now it looks like you react too keenly. He didnt claim that Finns and Estonians are oldest Europeans, but something about the culture. I wonder why because you usually argue claiming that in a long history the FInns are a very close ethnic group. Dont try to squirm out of this opinion of yours

He claimed that Setu language was spoken in the area for 5 000 years, which ignores all the scientific results. There was no Uralic language present in the area at that time. He has a grave need to believe in the oldness of Estonian language, even though he has no evidence whatsoever and he has to ignore all the evidence to do that.

I don't understand your next claim about Finns being a very close ethnic group. Could you write open what you mean?

[Lemminkäinen]

He claimed that Setu language was spoken in the area for 5 000 years, which ignores all the scientific results. There was no Uralic language present in the area at that time. He has a grave need to believe in the oldness of Estonian language, even though he has no evidence whatsoever and he has to ignore all the evidence to do that.

I know, Pohjis is irritating when assuming the linguistic continuity in Europe a la K. Wiik.

I don't understand your next claim about Finns being a very close ethnic group. Could you write open what you mean?

My opinion about this is that present cultures are cooked by people from different origins. Groups were very small and dynamic before the born of nationalities, especially thousands years ago. Genes equal to geographic locations, as our amateur geneticists have proved recently. Languages were only tools for ancient people in Northern Europe, not a national pride.

Your opinion have been that all Finns have common origin (obviously with a few exceptions could be admitted), but neither genes (are geographic), nor language (is shifted easily in small groups) can prove any common Finnish origin of people near the Baltic region. You see, you have been closer Pohjis with your opinions, so I wondered why you so keenly dispute his opinions, if there is only some stretch from his side.

[Evi]

Ofc, it is not, because it is not a polyphonic singing.

By the way, Estonians also made use of the runic singing in the past. One can recall the famous regilaul, which is based on the regivärss also known as Kalevala-mõõt (Kalevala-meter or runic meter). The runic meter is 8 syllable meter.

For example,


i-gav on ol-la il-ut-a
ha-le ol-la la-ul-em-ata
ko-le kä-o kuk-ku-ma-ta
ras-ke rõ-õ-mu-ta ela-da

Thus we may conclude that Balto-Finnics invented the ancient form of rap.

It looks like Finnics don´t know much about f.e. Latvian folk song meters? Because there too you can find 8 syllable meter.

Sit Jā-nī-ti va-ra bun-gas
vār-tu sta-ba ga-li-ņā-i
lai sa-nā-ca jā-ņu bēr-ni
no ma-li-ņu ma-li-ņām-i.

It seems that Latvians also have "Kalevala" meter?

[Huckleberry Finn]

It looks like Finnics don´t know much about f.e. Latvian folk song meters? Because there too you can find 8 syllable meter.

Sit Jā-nī-ti va-ra bun-gas
vār-tu sta-ba ga-li-ņā-i
lai sa-nā-ca jā-ņu bēr-ni
no ma-li-ņu ma-li-ņām-i.

It seems that Latvians also have "Kalevala" meter?

As Jaska already said, it is rather probable that the whole tradition was based on some (Slav-)-Baltic-Finnic interaction, maybe in Ingria or thereabouts. I'd even guess that it is somehow connected to the formation of late Proto Finnic, maybe in the late Migration Era.

The finnic version of this tradition may have been brought to later Latvia by later Livonians, EDIT who naturally were just migrating Proto Finnics by then . Andris Sne, if I recall it right, has been in the opinion that the Livonians migrated to later Latvia some time in the 7th-9th century from some place in East, maybe in the neighbourhood of Ladoga.

[cinnamona]

Yeah, present Balts mostly came during the Migration Period from east, although mixed with old locals.

Well, it does not mean that those Balts who came during Migration period where culturally very different (they spoke very similarly back then), tbh I don't think there is a need to portray modern day Balts as some aliens.