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Thread: Prometheus, proto-Indo-European and Schleicher's fable

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    Senior Moderator Back to the Future EliasAlucard's Avatar
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    Default Prometheus, proto-Indo-European and Schleicher's fable

    I decided to start a new thread on this in which we specifically discuss the PIE aspects of Prometheus.

    Here's a good post about what's said in the movie:

    SPOILER: This is about the meaning of what David said to the Engineer. If you are one of those people who doesn't want to know, don't read this.

    These are the words that David said to the Engineer:

    ida hmanâm aî kya namrrtuh zdêêtaha. gwhivah-pyorn-îttham sas daatrr kredah.

    And what does it mean?

    Literally it breaks down to:

    this man (is) here because not-die he-desires. life_increase_wish to-him you-(can)-give he-believes.

    And what is the best approximation of what that means in everyday English? What would the sub-title have been if there had been one?

    This man is here because he does not want to die. He believes you can give him more life.

    And where did this information come from?

    It was supplied by Dr. Anil Biltoo of SOAS at the University of London. Dr. Biltoo was hired by Ridley Scott to design the Engineers’ language, teach it to the actors who learned it, and appear on screen as David's language instructor. If you've seen the film, you know what he looks and sounds like. That's also him teaching David while the rest of the crew is still in hibernation.

    Anil-Biltoo.jpg

    The Engineers’ language is based on Dr. Biltoo's own version of reconstructed Proto-Indo-European. In the fictional context of the movie, it is assumed that over 5,000 years ago contact between the Engineers and humans exposed us to this mother language whose human "daughters" are now spoken by roughly 3 billion humans. Because of this fictional "real link" in human past to the Engineers and their language within the logic of the storytelling, David is able to communicate with them. One of David's features is that he knows all forms of human communication.

    Some of the words in "Engineer," as it was apparently commonly called during the production, actually have a recognizable connection to modern English. You'll likely recognize «hmanâm» as "human" or simply "man." The verb at the end. «kredah» ("he believes"), has echoes in English "creed," which is a "set of beliefs."

    For those who are interested in getting even more flavor of what the language is like. Here is the full version of Schleicher's Fable in the version that the Engineers would likely understand.

    hyewîs yasmâ hwælnâ nahâst aqwhunsâz dadrrkta, tâm ghêrmha vagam ugênthâ, tâm magham bhrrma, tâm hâmanam hêhok bharânt. hyewîs aqwhobyun vakta; mya kêrt xnutâya vizât hmanam aqwhunsâz uh-gnathâ. aqwhunz vaktantâ: kludh hyewa! kêrt xnutâya vîvîzdama: hâmanas patâsa hyewasya hwælnam swah gwhârmam vastram hyewîzbya hwælnâ nahâst. tod aklawa hyewîs agrâm abhogtâ.

    Apparently Michael Fassbender spent hours and hours committing the entire fable to memory, only to have the first line of it used in the film. Poor Fassy.

    Corroboration HERE of the translation.
    Source: http://www.prometheus-movie.com/comm...ums/topic/8525

    You can listen to the proto-Indo-European speech from the movie here:

    Proto-Indo-European in Prometheus?: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4008

    So, what do Jaska, Azvarohi and EastPole have to say about this? Is Biltoo's version of Schleicher's fable the most correct version to date? And what about Anil Biltoo; is he Anglo-Indian or something?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleicher%27s_fable

    This thread is not about a discussion of Prometheus. For that, see the discussion in the previous thread. If anyone here starts discussing Prometheus the movie in this thread which is placed in the Linguistics section where language related discussions are supposed to take place, you will be QBQ banned. Consider it a fair warning.

    //mod
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-06-21 at 13:53.
    “The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted is absurd. So too is the notion that people should have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted. A fundamental decision needs to be made: do we want to live in a free society or not?”
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    Established Member Junior Member Jaska's Avatar
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    Interesting... that Biltoo's version of Proto-Indo-European seems very Indocentric, there are too much *a's. I couldn't find any publication list from the man, so I cannot judge if he really is an Indocentrist.
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
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    Slightly Finnocentric IBS-project:
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    So the gods were Indo-Europeans after all...

    I must confess, I geeked pretty hard when I saw the phonetic script and realized that they were using PIE, but I immediately wondered about the accuracy of the reconstruction. My instant impression was that the pronunciation sounded somewhat forced and fragmented, giving the speech an almost unnatural quality.

    By the way, in case anyone missed it, Biltoo himself is David's holographic instructor. It seems that a recitation of Schleicher's fable was filmed in its entirety and edited afterwards. Bring on the collector's edition extras..!

    Now, judging by the fact that the only thing I could find on him online was about his movie credit, his status as an Indo-Europeanist becomes subject to question. I sincerely don't mean to be stereotyping, but I do hope we don't have a case of the dreaded Indocentrism behind this otherwise enjoyable film.
    Last edited by Ardi; 2012-06-26 at 15:10.
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    Biltoo's version is a "softened" and doesn't take into account laryngeals, which I am sure was the intention. Remember that Fassbender is a native of English and German. My personal transliteration of the written passage given in the OP-quote would be in the line of:

    *h1ida dhĝhmon h1ei (kya) nemer steh2taha. gweiə-pu-tuhom so deh3 kredhə
    "Here man this one no-die stand(-does). Life-blow-you him give believe"
    This man standing here doesn't want to die. He believes you can give him life.

    I am unsure about the "kya", since there are many equal alternatives for it.
    WITH MAN GONE,
    WILL THERE
    BE HOPE
    FOR GORILLA?

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    As far as i remember, there were two sequences in "PIE" in the film, the Schleicher's Fable when David learns PIE during the flight and when he tries to speak to the Engineer. The way David pronounced Schleicher's Fable was completely random, pronouncing laryngeals like glottal stops et cetera. Most probably PIE sounded nothing like that. But the Fable itself was written by linguists, not the film's creators, we just don't know how to actually pronounce it (Google "laryngeal theory" for more info).

    The sequence where David speaks to the Engineer is wild bullshit, looks more like broken Sanskrit with infusion of Latin roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cail View Post
    As far as i remember, there were two sequences in "PIE" in the film, the Schleicher's Fable when David learns PIE during the flight and when he tries to speak to the Engineer. The way David pronounced Schleicher's Fable was completely random, pronouncing laryngeals like glottal stops et cetera. Most probably PIE sounded nothing like that. But the Fable itself was written by linguists, not the film's creators, we just don't know how to actually pronounce it (Google "laryngeal theory" for more info).

    The sequence where David speaks to the Engineer is wild bullshit, looks more like broken Sanskrit with infusion of Latin roots.
    You can listen to the proto-Indo-European speech from the movie here:

    Proto-Indo-European in Prometheus?: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4008
    “The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted is absurd. So too is the notion that people should have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted. A fundamental decision needs to be made: do we want to live in a free society or not?”
    Salman Rushdie

    “Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.”
    — Neal Boortz

    “Freedom isn't for wimps.”
    — Neal Boortz

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cail View Post
    The sequence where David speaks to the Engineer is wild bullshit, looks more like broken Sanskrit with infusion of Latin roots.
    IMO, that's how an amteur like myself would've imagined it before getting to read stuff on linguistics.
    Dumb Post of the Year Award goes to....

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    Lets took than the Iberian peninsula, 8 distant groups of IE was there Celtici Lusitanians Greeks Vandals Suevi Alani Goths and Italic people, only haplogroup G2a have there so many subgroups.
    The R1a have only one sugroup there the R1a1a1g2* and it is almost absent in that region
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    Some more proto-Indo-European not shown in the theatrical cut:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK684Ti1KyI

    Recognise the words, Cail? And Jaska is right, lots of *a's in Biltoo's version. I thought Indo-Europeanists had agreed by now that it's *h₁éḱwos and not Ashvin or however it's pronunced in Indo-Iranian languages?

    In Biltoo's version Fassbender says aqwhunsâz, whereas in the most updated 2008 version on Wikipedia by Lühr, it's *(h1)ék’wons, which seems reasonably more in line with the mainstream reconstructed proto-Indo-European word for horse.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-09-21 at 22:37.
    “The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted is absurd. So too is the notion that people should have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted. A fundamental decision needs to be made: do we want to live in a free society or not?”
    Salman Rushdie

    “Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.”
    — Neal Boortz

    “Freedom isn't for wimps.”
    — Neal Boortz

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    AFRO-ASIATIC PWNAGE | AFRO-ASIATIC PWNAGE 2 | AFRO-ASIATIC PWNAGE 3 | ULTIMATE AFRO-ASIATIC PWNAGE | ARMENIAN PWNAGE

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries
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    Here is an omitted sacrifice scene which also has a PIE sequence.



    The words are:

    vratra-sunu-saŋgena, kludh! tanus teva pərətu ʔādat, kruhs teva āpam. gwhitam-usjah-kwe ʔasyat ei pṇthane – nəsmuh aja.

    English translation:



    Source:
    http://thebioscopist.com/2012/10/15/...e-of-the-gods/

    However, the English translation omits the opening phrase. I can understand the words sunu (son) and kludh! (hear!). Would be interesting to know the other two.
    Last edited by aeon; 2012-12-29 at 20:22.

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    Full conversation between David and the Engineer

    <iframe width="450" height="225" frameborder="0" src="http://video.yandex.ru/iframe/aiwn-13/ll2a8vnklo.2521/"></iframe>

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