Do Pathans and Punjabis look Middle Eastern?

[userwithoutname]

I think they deserve all their rights and don't deserve to be persecuted. What pashtuns are doing to them is wrong.

But it isn't unfortunate they aren't the majority.

Just like it isn't unfortunate Pakistan doesn't have a Greek majority.

Or the areas of Russia and Eastern Europe subject to Mongols don't have any significant Mongol populations.

Didn't the Mongols commit a mass rape and genocide on the natives? Unless you support that.


Or did the Pashtun/Baloch population of Hazarajat just suddenly migrate away so the Hazara could settle?

I can't think of a single place in the world where the majority populations consists of foreign men raping the native women.

What are you talking about?

That has happened all over, from the Americas to Australia, and it likely also happened in South Asia with the Indo-Aryans decimating the native populations.

Besides that, with respect to the Hazara, there's no concrete evidence that "rape" occurred. We don't even know which wave of Mongol descended people are responsible for their patrimonial legacy, much less how it occurred.

Anyway, let's talk about now.

I don't like Pashtuns/Balochs as they are physically revolting to me but I wouldn't want them to face similar atrocities in the present day. Likewise, we shouldn't hold the legacy of ancestry against the Hazaras to justify genocide because we don't like the sentiment that they perhaps could have been a more sizable community if not for the acts perpetrated against them. The entire justification for these acts was based on reducing their numbers. This is unfortunate.

[nk191919]

What are you talking about?

That has happened all over, from the Americas to Australia, and it likely also happened in South Asia with the Indo-Aryans decimating the native populations.

Besides that, with respect to the Hazara, there's no concrete evidence that "rape" occurred. We don't even know which wave of Mongol descended people are responsible for their patrimonial legacy, much less how it occurred.

Anyway, let's talk about now.

I don't like Pashtuns/Balochs as they are physically revolting to me but I wouldn't want them to face similar atrocities in the present day. Likewise, we shouldn't hold the legacy of ancestry against the Hazaras to justify genocide because we don't like the sentiment that they perhaps could have been a more sizable community if not for the acts perpetrated against them. The entire justification for these acts was based on reducing their numbers. This is unfortunate.

You make some very good point. Hazaras are often considered outsiders by other Afghans: Shiite Muslims in a mostly Sunni Muslim nation, they are further distinguished from other Afghans by their Asian features. The story goes that Hazaras are descendants of Genghis Khan and his soldiers, who invaded in the 13th century. Genetic tests show that there is indeed some relationship. But Hazaras’ bloodlines also trace back to the area’s original inhabitants, various regional ethnicities, and travelers who passed along the Silk Route, including Turks and Tajiks.

At any rate Hazaras have lived in their homeland for centuries and to think of them as outsiders is simply backward and stupid.

Also I have seen studies that cluster the Hazara population with Central Asian populations, rather than Mongolian populations, which is consistent with ethnological studies. their results further extend these findings, as they showed that the Hazaras are closer to Turkic-speaking populations from Central Asia than to East-Asian or Indo-Iranian populations.

[saran]

What's the statute of limitations on that?
...
The Hazara, according to my understanding, are a mixed group anyway. Their DNA signatures reveal that their fathers/paternal lines of descent are foreign invaders, descendants of Mongols, but their mothers/maternal lines of descent were local.
...

The statute is well past unless the Hazara want it not to be so.
On their mtDNA distribution looks more like the uzbek than the Indus one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...78/figure/FG1/

[saran]

...
Where did Arab ancestry in non Muslims especially in some of the most endogamous communities come from before Islam? It doesn't make sense especially because other Arab lines don't seem to be present in those communities. Ultimately Arab R1a is from Iran or the Indus Valley.
...

Well before Islam. The Indus Valley traded with Arabia.

If Arab (which I had mentioned is unlikely), it is certainly pre-Islamic as J-1 is very low in Afghanistan.

"R1a1a-M17 was significantly more frequent (p = 3.00×10−6) in Pashtuns (51.02%) and Tajiks (30.36%) than in Uzbeks (17.65%) and Hazaras (6.67%) ... C3-M217 was significantly more frequent (p = 4.55×10−9) in Uzbeks (41.18%) and Hazaras (33.33%) than it was in Tajiks (3.57%) and Pashtuns (2.04%) ... Haplogroups autochthonous to India [15]; L-M20, H-M69, and R2a-M124 were found more (p = 0.004) in Pashtuns (20.41%) and Tajiks (19.64%) than in Uzbeks (5.88%) and Hazaras (5%). E1b1b1-M35 was found in Hazaras (5%) and Uzbeks (5.88%) but not in Pashtuns and Tajiks ... R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan ... The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley ... the most prevalent lineage among Arabs (J1-M267) was only found in one Afghan subject. In addition, the three Afghans that identified their ethnicity as Arab, had lineages autochthonous to India."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0034288

Considering the low diversity of R1a1 in Pashtuns it appears that potentially more than 70 of the Pashtun Y dna is sourced from the Indus Valley.

[GreenLantern_JV]

Pathans do look more like Middle-eastern or Iranic-influenced Central Asians.

Punjabis sometimes can, especially Sikhs or upper-class Muslims...

[chicken]

You can tell them apart but I agree they tend to look more middle eastern or persian but some middle eastern people also look indid

[nk191919]

You can tell them apart but I agree they tend to look more middle eastern or persian but some middle eastern people also look indid

It is not like that at all. Most people in the region Pashtuns or Panjabis display, to me at least a combination of Phenotypes. This is something that outsiders cannot see. The region has had a complex history and it has seen waves of significant migrations. It is not as black and white as people think. Historically there has been significant mixing between the two. This is also proven Genetically.

The same way you have a lot overlap between a French and an Italian. You have it in this region. The majority actually are a combination. At least this has been my experience.

[saran]

[xklassicx]

Pathans do look more like Middle-eastern or Iranic-influenced Central Asians. Punjabis sometimes can, especially Sikhs or upper-class Muslims...

South Asian Muslims had disproportionate contact with Middle Easterners and often intermarried with them all throughout the course of history so if there are going to be ''Middle Eastern'' looking South Asians they are more likely to be found among South Asian Muslims (upper-class or not) than among Punjabi Hindus/Sikhs or Brahmins - the latter considered Middle Eastern Muslims ''mlecchas'' (untouchable) for crying out loud.

Pakistani Pathans resemble their Afghan counterparts, and look more Middle Eastern because they have more SW Asian component in them, compared to other NW South Asians. Northern Pakistanis are intermediate between Punjabis and South Central Asians. The vast majority of plains Punjabis look characteristically South Asian, however there is definitely a Middle Eastern strain among them. I've personally experienced that more Pakistani Punjabis resemble Middle Easterners compared to Sikhs. While there is a Middle Eastern strain among Sikhs, I've yet to meet any which look like full-blown Iranians, Arabs or Central Asians as they do tend to have a rather distinctive look which resulted from them being strictly endogamous.

British Sikhs:


For example, I've never met any Sikhs which look to have a Turko-Mongol influence that is widespread among South Asian Muslim communities such as this Gujarati Muslim cleric:



However what I've noticed among Sikhs is that their elderly resemble North European vikings.



There are tens of thousands of Pakistani Pathan, Afghan Pashtun and Hazaras refugees who fled the violence of the war and migrated to the UK for better opportunities and it's easy to tell the difference between them and Punjabis.

[userwithoutname]

There were movements of people between the Middle East and South Asia prior to the arrival of Islam in South Asia. Both regions have a great deal of diversity so I don't think there's much of a generalization that can be made about similarity other than in general, those South Asians in closer proximity to the middle east, and vice versa, via ports or land routes have a greater probability to share some resemblence with eachother.

Being familiar with the groups, I have no problem distinguishing but some people are either unfamiliar with the groups or they're just too stupid to see what I would consider obvious differences in physical features even when they should be familiar. For example I was at the bank the other day, and the lady, a lebanese woman, saw my name on the client card and thought I might be one of her kind. Which to me is laughable because I'm very Indid/Punjabi looking.