Do Pathans and Punjabis look Middle Eastern?

[warrior]

Those Sakas didn't leave, I know. They stayed in India and integrated, mixed, etc. They were pretty much integrated before the Guptas.

Hunas became a problem later in the Gupta empire. Guptas took care of the Sakas pretty quickly as they expanded in the beginning.

I doubt there were many Sakas around East India at Buddhas times. Scythians were too busy getting chased around by the Persians, Medes, etc. And probably also fighting themselves and other competitors in Central Asia.

But they came into India in a big way when they united and took over the Indo-Greeks.

Gupta empire was not highly centralized like Mauryans, so even though Sakas were subdued by Gupta, they retained their power like Rajputs in Mughal period. Sakas were east-Iranic speaker so their admixture with older Indo-Aryans make more sense. Some of their tribes might be present along with Indo-Aryans. Other thing is that Scythian term itself is a confusing, used by some ignorant greeks for umbrella of tribes so many so called scythians were not necessarily related. In fact, most of history looks like mythology to me.

[randy marsh]

Gupta empire was not highly centralized like Mauryans, so even though Sakas were subdued by Gupta, they retained their power like Rajputs in Mughal period. Sakas were east-Iranic speaker so their admixture with older Indo-Aryans make more sense. Some of their tribes might be present along with Indo-Aryans. Other thing is that Scythian term itself is a confusing, used by some ignorant greeks for umbrella of tribes so many so called scythians were not necessarily related. In fact, most of history looks like mythology to me.

I'm aware they kept some sovereignty, but the Guptas did end the Indo-Saka rule forever by killing out the dynasty. They installed a puppet in place and went off and conquered other parts of India.

I doubt Sakas were present around that area(E. India) in an important way. I dont even think the Mauryans, Nandas, etc mentioned Sakas there. They did mention Saka-like Central Asians in the NW, in former Seleucid lands. And they did use Central Asians and others in their military. If they were in India they were mostly limited to the NW India at that time in my opinion. Not really that deep inside India. Even when Sakas invaded/entered India(in a big wave) they still remained in N.W., Gujarat, etc for the most part. Later moving all around.


If they were present in a big way, you would clearly see evidence of Saka clothing(very clear and obvious and polar opposite to what locals were wearing), culture, and other styles in Eastern India art at that time. Which isn't the case.

You can see these styles poping up after they invaded Indo-Greeks and took over Gujarat, etc.

[xklassicx]

On the subject of the ''Western Satraps'' (Ariaca) - this sacred Saka territory encompassed the regions of Saurashtra and Malwa: modern Gujarat, Rajasthan, Southern Sindh, Maharashtra, and Madhya Pradesh - with their royal capital established inland at Ozene (Ujjain), and their main important trade center being Barygaza (my own ancestral district). Worth noting is that the Northern Satrap Sakas expanded in a powerfully different direction and had the monopoly over Uttar Pradesh.

The Romans during this era developed close relationships with Western India which flourished into a time-honoured cultural exchange due to positive experience of their trade and commerce with Barygaza. The inhabitants of the Western Satraps, were thus, enriched, both monetarily, as well as, intellectually, by virtue of their international transactions. Periplus accounts describe in detail how the Romans customarily honoured Indian kings by sending them ''beautiful maidens for the harem'', and how ''Italian'' fine wine was not merely reserved for elitist consumption:

49. There are imported into this market-town (Barigaza), wine, Italian preferred, also Laodicea[disambiguation needed]n and Arabian; copper, tin, and lead; coral and topaz; thin clothing and inferior sorts of all kinds; bright-colored girdles a cubit wide; storax, sweet clover, flint glass, realgar, antimony, gold and silver coin, on which there is a profit when exchanged for the money of the country; and ointment, but not very costly and not much. And for the King there are brought into those places very costly vessels of silver, singing boys, beautiful maidens for the harem, fine wines, thin clothing of the finest weaves, and the choicest ointments. There are exported from these places spikenard, costus, bdellium, ivory, agate and carnelian, lycium, cotton cloth of all kinds, silk cloth, mallow cloth, yarn, long pepper and such other things as are brought here from the various market-towns. Those bound for this market-town from Egypt make the voyage favorably about the month of July, that is Epiphi."
—Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, Chapter 48

On the importance of Ujjain:

48. Inland from this place and to the east, is the city called Ozene, formerly a royal capital; from this place are brought down all things needed for the welfare of the country about Barygaza, and many things for our trade : agate and carnelian, Indian muslins and mallow cloth, and much ordinary cloth.
—Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, Chapter 48.

King Kshaharata Nahapana, (r. 119 CE–124 CE), son of Bhumaka, who was a great patron of the Indo-Greek style:



Evidence of a Greek colony at Barygaza:

47. The country inland from Barygaza is inhabited by numerous tribes, such as the Arattii, the Arachosii, the Gandaraei and the people of Poclais, in which is Bucephalus Alexandria. Above these is the very warlike nation of the Bactrians, who are under their own king. And Alexander, setting out from these parts, penetrated to the Ganges, leaving aside Damirica and the southern part of India; and to the present day ancient drachmae are current in Barygaza, coming from this country, bearing inscriptions in Greek letters, and the devices of those who reigned after Alexander, Apollodorus and Menander—Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, Chapter 48

One of the most famous Greeks of the time was Yavaneśvara (Lord" (Isvara) "of the Greeks" (Yavanas) who lived in Gujarat under auspicious rule of the Western Kshatrapa Saka king -Rudrakarman I- and who is credited for translating magnificant works of Greek astrology into Sanskrit. Yavaneśvara was sponsored by Rudrakarman himself, as were many Greeks who were promoted to the position of ''officials''.

"Previously Yavanesvara (the lord of the Greeks), whose vision of the truth came by favor of the Sun and whose language is flawless, translated this ocean of words, this jewel-mine of horoscopy, which was guarded by its being written in his tongue (i.e., Greek), but the truth of which was seen by the foremost of kings (in the year) 71; (he translated) this science of genethlialogy for the instruction of the world by means of excellent words." (Chapter 79/60-61 The Yavanajataka of Sphujidhvaja)

Ptolemy, another famous Greek, considered inhabitants of the ''Western Satraps'' still akin to Indo-Scythians and describes the historical relevance of Barbaricum (ancient seaport of modern Karachi):

Moreover the region which is next to the western part of India, is called Indoscythia. A part of this region around the (Indus) river mouth is Patalena, above which is Abiria. That which is about the mouth of the Indus and the Canthicolpus bay is called Syrastrena (Saurashtra). (...) In the island formed by this river are the cities Pantala, Barbaria (Barbaricum) (...) The Larica region of Indoscythia is located eastward from the swamp near the sea, in which on the west of the Namadus river is the interior city of Barygaza emporium. On the east side of the river (...) Ozena-Regia Tiastani (...) Minnagara".—Ptolemy Geographia, Book Seven, Chapter I

Rudradaman I (r. 130 CE–150 CE), legendary grandson of Chastana, took up the title of Maha-kshtrapa ("Great Satrap") and regained vast territories. Junadagh rock inscriptions bear testament to his valour:

"Rudradaman (...) who is the lord of the whole of eastern and western Akaravanti (Akara: East Malwa and Avanti: West Malwa), the Anupa country, Anarta, Surashtra, Svabhra (northern Gujarat) Maru (Marwar), Kachchha (Cutch), Sindhu-Sauvira (Sindh and Multan districts), Kukura (Eastern Rajputana), Aparanta ("Western Border" - Northern Konkan), Nishada (an aboriginal tribe, Malwa and parts of Central India) and other territories gained by his own valour, the towns, marts and rural parts of which are never troubled by robbers, snakes, wild beasts, diseases and the like, where all subjects are attached to him, (and) where through his might the objects of [religion], wealth and pleasure [are duly attained]". —Junagadh (Girnar Gujarat) rock inscription.[4] Geographical interpretations in parenthesis from Rapson

Gujarat rock inscriptions prove he utterly ''vanquished'' the Yaudheyas from Haryana - who are supposed to be the ancestors of some modern day Jatts, Ahirs and Rajput clans from Rajasthan and Multan - but not without once mentioning their superior rank among the brilliant warriors.

"Rudradaman (...) who by force destroyed the Yaudheyas who were loath to submit, rendered proud as they were by having manifested their' title of' heroes among all Kshatriyas."

[warrior]

I think SNP analysis will throw more light on real descendants of Sakas and it will also make clear if they were really related with Scythian people. I guess this term is used for lot of unconnected people by ignorant writers of ancient period.

[Guardian]

Two Sindhi's

I think this guy is Brahui or Brahui-mixed Sindhi. Plenty of Sindhis and Baloch are not pure and many have Dravidian ancestry, especially in coastal areas.

[raz]

Plenty of Sindhis and Baloch are not pure and many have Dravidian ancestry, especially in coastal areas.

I'm not sure what "Dravidian" ancestry means since Dravidian refers to a language group, not ethnicity. Some of the coastal Baluch do have African ancestry, but I don't think you're referring to that. The gentleman in the picture above, although a bit dark for an average Sindhi, is not an unusual phenotype and does not appear to have any obvious African admixture. FWIW, although there isn't much of a difference, based on samples tested in the Harappa ancestry project, Sindhis appear to have lower ASI than the average Punjabi.

[mac]

Although there isn't much of a difference, based on samples tested in the Harappa ancestry project, Sindhis appear to have lower ASI than the average Punjabi.

I agree on your point about Dravidians but share a slightly different opinion on the Sindhi and Punjabi samples.

I guess you're making the conclusion on the 23 Sindhi samples from HGDP and the 25 Punjabi Arain samples from Xing. Zack posted the averages in the spreadsheet below. You should note that these are averages and there is individual variation with 1 Sindhi and Punjabi Arain sort of deviating from the average with the Sindhi at 19.93% ASI and the Punjabi Arain at 20.83%. The rest are closer to their respective averages which are 26.07% for the Sindhis and 27.59% for the Punjabi Arains. However, the 5 Punjabi Jatts and 3 Haryana Jatts samples (closely related to Punjabi Jatts) average about 25% ASI. Both groups of those samples are of course from Indian Punjab and Haryana. Yes, they are small samples but I think the general idea is that Punjabis and Sindhis are more or less the same in terms of ANI-ASI percentages. The main difference is the different components of the ANI with Sindhis tending to have slightly more of the Gedrosia/Baloch component possibly due to their proximity to Balochistan and Punjabis tending to have slightly more of the NEU component. With larger sample sizes, we can make better conclusions of course and see the likely slight variation of components between the different tribes/castes within Punjab and Sindhi.

https://docs.google.com/a/scu.edu/sp...IQ0NBeFE#gid=0

Here is the spreadsheet for the individual samples that were used to create the averages.

https://docs.google.com/a/scu.edu/sp...IQ0NBeFE#gid=1