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Thread: Is Y-chromosome haplogroup J2 an Elamo-Harappan Bronze Age marker in India?2437 days old

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    Default Is Y-chromosome haplogroup J2 an Elamo-Harappan Bronze Age marker in India?

    The presence of Haplogroup J2 in India, including the subclades M410 and M241 has been an often overlooked clue to the origins of M172. Sengupta et al, in 2005 worked to explain the presence of M172 in India. Their paper provides an immediate acknowledgement of the proposed spread of proto-Elamo-Dravidian speaking peoples into India originating from the Indus Valley and southwest Persia. The idea that M172 may have been carried into India with proto-Elamo-Dravidian groups is supported by the frequencies of Haplogroup J in one of the only remaining Dravidian Speaking ethnic groups in the Iranian Plateau, the Brahui. 28% of the Brahui, an ethnic Dravidian speaking group from Western Pakistan were found to carry the mutation defining Haplogroup J. Overall Haplogroup J2 in India represented 9.1% of this very populous nation. In Pakistan, M172 accounted for 11.9% of the Y-Chromosomes typed. Sengupta's paper broke down the frequencies of Haplogroup J2 into various caste and language groups. J2 was found to be significantly higher among Dravidian castes at 19% than among Indo-European castes at 11%. J2a-M410 in particular may be a strong candidate for a proposed migration of proto-Dravidian peoples from the Iranian Plateau or the Indus Valley since J2a M410 is a very high component of the haplogroup J2 chromosomes found in Pakistan. Over 71% of the M172 found in Pakistan was M410+.

    Another interesting characteristic in the distribution of M172 and more specifically, M410, in India was its higher frequencies in Upper Caste Dravidians. M410+ chromosomes were found in 13% of Upper Caste Dravidians. Sengupta goes on to suggest an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers but from a Y chromosome perspective, the paper seems to acknowledge M172 arriving in India from Middle Eastern and Indus Valley Civilizations.


    Despite an apparent exogenous frequency spread pattern of J2a toward North and Central India from the west, it is premature to attribute the spread to a simplistic demic expansion of early agriculturists from the Middle East....it may also reflect subsequent Bronze Age Harappans of uncertain provenance.


    Subclades of M172 such as M67 and M92 were not found in either Indian or Pakistani samples which also might hint at a partial common origin. And while there may be multiple events and origins for M172 lineages in India, it does seem likely that the Indus Valley and Elamo-Dravidian speaking groups may be the origin of some of the M172 found in India today.
    Elamo-Harappan origins for Haplogroup J2 in India?


    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Bronze Age on the Indian subcontinent began around 3300 BC with the beginning of the Indus Valley civilization.
    And some related maps:





    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-07-23 at 15:10.

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    I am starting to think now that J2a may have spread out fairly late from the Near East mainly during the Bronze Age with new metal technology. It's distribution seems to show this possibly. Dienekes has a few interesting things to say about J2a and it's spread.

    ''Of course, the idea that the diffusion of J2a related lineages ties in with early agricultural expansions has been with us for a long time, but it is time to abandon it. First of all, as we have seen, J2a diminishes greatly as we head towards South Asia; it certainly doesn't look like the lineage of the multitude of agricultural settlements that sprang up along the southeastern vector soon after the invention of agriculture. Second, it is lacking so far in all ancient Y chromosome data from Europe down to 5,000 years ago. It seems much more probably that J2 related lineages spread from the highlands of West Asia much later.''

    ''If we accept that the European Neolithic island-hopped to Greece from the East and thence spread north and east into Europe, it is peculiar that ancient DNA from Neolithic Europeans is dominated by Y-haplogroups I2b and G2a (missing the dominant Anatolian J2 haplogroup) and by a "Mediterranean" autosomal makeup (missing the dominant Anatolian West_Asian component). As I have previously argued, this suggests a sea change in the genetic makeup of Anatolia itself since the early Neolithic, and a Bronze Age migration of J2/West_Asian brachycephals into Anatolia, mainland Greece and Crete would be one possible agent for that development.''

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    I am starting to think now that J2a may have spread out fairly late from the Near East mainly during the Bronze Age with new metal technology. It's distribution seems to show this possibly. Dienekes has a few interesting things to say about J2a and it's spread.

    ''Of course, the idea that the diffusion of J2a related lineages ties in with early agricultural expansions has been with us for a long time, but it is time to abandon it. First of all, as we have seen, J2a diminishes greatly as we head towards South Asia; it certainly doesn't look like the lineage of the multitude of agricultural settlements that sprang up along the southeastern vector soon after the invention of agriculture. Second, it is lacking so far in all ancient Y chromosome data from Europe down to 5,000 years ago. It seems much more probably that J2 related lineages spread from the highlands of West Asia much later.''

    ''If we accept that the European Neolithic island-hopped to Greece from the East and thence spread north and east into Europe, it is peculiar that ancient DNA from Neolithic Europeans is dominated by Y-haplogroups I2b and G2a (missing the dominant Anatolian J2 haplogroup) and by a "Mediterranean" autosomal makeup (missing the dominant Anatolian West_Asian component). As I have previously argued, this suggests a sea change in the genetic makeup of Anatolia itself since the early Neolithic, and a Bronze Age migration of J2/West_Asian brachycephals into Anatolia, mainland Greece and Crete would be one possible agent for that development.''
    Another related map from Dienekes blog:



    The distribution of the principal ore deposites seems to me to correlate with the J2 map:





    So Dienekes' idea of linking J2 spread and metalurgy spread looks attractive. I wonder what were the languages of these hypothethical J2 people spreading metalurgy.

    As far as Europe goes the first Bronze Age civilisation that comes to my mind are Minoans:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Minoan civilization was a bronze-aged civilization that arose on the island of Crete and came to dominate the shores and islands of the Aegean Sea. The civilization flourished as a maritime power from approximately the 27th century to the 15th century BC.
    (...)
    The Minoan language was spoken in ancient Crete before it was replaced with the language of the mainland; the relationship between Minoan and Greek is unknown. While attempts have been made to connect it to other languages, Minoan must be considered unclassified until a linguistic affiliation can be ascertained.
    Then we have Hattians in Anatolia:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    At the origins of written history, the Anatolian plains inside the area ringed by the Kızılırmak River were occupied by the first defined civilization in Anatolia, a non-Indo-European indigenous people named the Hattians (c. 2,500 BC – c. 2,000 BC).
    (...)
    The Hattians spoke a non-Indo-European language of uncertain affiliation called Hattic, now believed by some scholars to be related to the Northwest Caucasian language group. Many Northwest Caucasian (Adygean) family names have prefixes like "Hath" or "Hatti" and especially one of the most known Adygean tribes have the name "Hattico" (in the meaning of "HattiSon")
    Then go Elamites:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA

    Elam was an ancient civilization located to the east of Mesopotamia. In the Old Elamite period (Middle Bronze Age), Elam consisted of kingdoms on the Iranian plateau, centered in Anshan, and from the mid-2nd millennium BC, it was centered in Susa in the Khuzestan lowlands.
    (...)
    Elamite is regarded by the vast majority of Linguists as a language isolate and has no close relation to the neighbouring Semitic languages, to the Indo-European languages, Anatolian languages or to Sumerian (a fellow isolate) (...)
    And of course Sumerians:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Sumer (from Akkadian Šumeru; Sumerian ���������������� � ki-en-ĝir15, approximately "land of the civilized lords" or "native land"[note 1])[1] was a civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age.
    (...)
    Sumerian has been the subject of controversial proposals purportedly identifying it as related genetically with a wide variety of agglutinative languages, as well as with some non-agglutinative languages, however it is generally accepted to be a language isolate.
    And Harappans:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Bronze Age in South Asia begins around 3000 BC, and in the end gives rise to the Indus Valley Civilization, which had its mature period between 2600 BC and 1900 BC.
    (...)
    The Harappan language is not directly attested and its affiliation is uncertain since the Indus script is still undeciphered. A relationship with the Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian language family is favored by most accounts.

    It is interesting that we have here several language isolates like in the Caucasus today (Caucasus looks like the place favourite for miners and it is the place where West Asian autosomal component peaks:





    So my conclusions:

    1) Dienekes' idea of linking Y-chromosome hg J2, West Asian autosomal component, Bronze Age and metalurgy spread is brillant;

    2) so far there is not a sign that this complex had anything to do with Indo-Europeans (rather quite contrary; Dienekes says that they were part of it, but this part is controversial).
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-07-24 at 10:55.

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    And we also have Maykop Culture in North Caucasus:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Maykop culture (also spelled Maikop), ca. 3700 BC—2500 BC, was a major Bronze Age archaeological culture situated in Southern Russia running from the Taman Peninsula at the Kerch Strait nearly to the modern border of Dagestan, centered approximately on the modern Republic of Adygea (whose capital is Maykop) in the Kuban River valley.
    Do we find much J2 among Circassians (EDIT: It seems that they have 53.5% G, 14.5% J2, 10.5% R1a1 and 2.5% R1b)?

    By the way J2 is highest among the Ingush and Chechens:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The highest reported frequency of J2 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Nakh peoples are a group of historical and modern ethnic groups speaking (or historically speaking) Nakh languages and sharing certain cultural traits. In modern days, they reside almost completely in the North Caucasus, but historically large areas of the South Caucasus may have also been Nakh.

    The only healthy, living branch of the Nakh languages are now the Vainakh languages (spoken by the Vainakh peoples, namely Chechens, Ingush and Georgian Kist), due to the extinction of other peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Some linguists — notably I. M. Diakonoff and S. Starostin — also see similarities between the Northeast Caucasian family and the extinct languages Hurrian and Urartian. Hurrian was spoken in various parts of the Fertile Crescent in the 3rd and 2nd millennia BC. Urartian was the language of Urartu, a powerful state centered in the area of Lake Van in Turkey, that existed between 1000 BC or earlier and 585 BC.

    The two extinct languages have been grouped into the Hurro-Urartian family. Diakonoff proposed the name Alarodian for the union of Hurro-Urartian and Northeast Caucasian.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-07-24 at 12:11.

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    Yes I think Dienekes may really be onto something in linking J2a to the spread of metalurgy during the Bronze Age out of the West Asian highlands. Howeveer as you say and I agree with this that does NOT mean that these J2a people were Indo-European speakers. Personally I think there is a good chance that they spoke languages that may have been related to the modern day languages that are spoken in the Caucasus. Either way it seems now that there is a good chance that it was mainly J2a men who spread the knowledge of Bronze working out from West Asia.

    Yes as you found J2 (mostly J2a) is found among the Circassians but it is found at much higher frequencies in the Ingush and Chechens. Almost all Ingush and Chechen J2 is of the J2a4b* subclade and is not very diverse when it comes to haplotypes. This indicates a very strong founder effect or population bottleneck among the Ingush and Chechens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    ...

    1) Dienekes' idea of linking Y-chromosome hg J2, West Asian autosomal component, Bronze Age and metalurgy spread is brillant;

    2) so far there is not a sign that this complex had anything to do with Indo-Europeans (rather quite contrary; Dienekes says that they were part of it, but this part is controversial).
    J2a spread looks to be very recent in Europe - probably due to IE Persians/Ionians.

    It has not been found in any of the ancient remains. http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista...cientdna.shtml

    Missing in Iceland http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...JHGv67p697.pdf Shetland http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults and ABO Canary http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...2148-9-181.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post

    By the way J2 is highest among the Ingush and Chechens:
    A bit offtopic but could J2 in Southern Europe be a marker of Etruscans and/or Pelasgian?

    There is a theory that Etruscan could be related to Nakh-Daghestanian/North-East Caucasian language whose family members are Ingush and Chechen.

    The Etruscan numerals are widely regarded as demonstrating that a relationship probably does not exist between Etruscan and Indo-European or Afroasiatic. It is argued here that a genealogical linguistic relationship exists,however, between Etruscan and the Nakh-Daghestanian languages, and that this relationship can be seen in over half of the basic numerals and in other core vocabulary in Etruscan, supported by regular phonological correspondences. However, it is the system of numerical morphology which is shared by Etruscan and Nakh-Daghestanian which points to a genealogical relationship between them. In addition, the almost complete overlaps in grammatical paradigms generally, and the existence of inherited irregularities such as shared ablaut patterns and non-standard plural themes for the same key cognate items of vocabulary are all diagnostic of descent from a common ancestor.
    Source

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    So much for the Neolitich J2 theory. ^^

    @Wojewoda: Such high percentage of J2 among Ingush is probably due to a founder effect.
    Last edited by joseph capelli; 2012-07-24 at 18:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph capelli View Post
    So much for the Neolitich J2 theory. ^^
    Yes that theory does not seem to be holding up very well so far at least. As others on here have said J2a certainly looks like a later spreading haplogroup out of West Asia. The connection with the spread of Bronze metal technology is very tempting. However we still need to wait for more ancient DNA results as some of these may end up showing some J2a in southeast Neolithic Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph capelli View Post
    So much for the Neolitich J2 theory. ^^

    @Wojewoda: Such high percentage of J2 among Ingush is probably due to a founder effect.
    Yeah, I know. But I like the idea of Chechen metallurgists spreading J2 and West Asian autosomal component far and away.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-24 at 20:16 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    A bit offtopic but could J2 in Southern Europe be a marker of Etruscans and/or Pelasgian?

    There is a theory that Etruscan could be related to Nakh-Daghestanian/North-East Caucasian language whose family members are Ingush and Chechen.



    Source
    It would make much sense IMHO.

    I don't know if the information from the following quote is relable:

    It was of course a surprise for me what we knew from the 1000 Genomes Project, that you know tested in Italy only Tuscans, and they resulted 50% of hg. R but a 30% of hg. J, above all J2. I don’t know if this is the percentage of Tuscan gene pool, but 30% is very surprising
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-07-24 at 19:42.

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