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Thread: Mesolithic (s)Iberians ?759 days old

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    Default Mesolithic (s)Iberians ?

    This thread is inspited by Woj's thread about Cavalli-Sforzas PCA maps. I made a staggering found when testing a hypothesis about C-S PC2 map ("Uralic") component. It seems that mesolithic Iberians were very Siberian or atleast the calculators substitute the mesolithic Iberian with Siberian.

    To my surprise I found out that more than half of my Dodecad and Eurogenes predicted "Siberianity" fell directly into Mesolithic-North-Euro cluster crafted by our fellow forumite and MDLP executive, Vadim Verenich. The Name of the cluster is slightly misleading in historical context as it is infact based on the alleles of two mesolithic samples from Iberian peninsula. To be more specific they are from La Braña-Arintero site in León (Northwestern Spain). Mtdna of both samples is U5b2c1.

    Allele peak in modern populations occures in Saami and Finns.

    I score steady around 8% of various Siberian/North Asian clusters throught out the Dodecad 9 and 12b, aswell as Eurogenes 9 and 13.

    When VV added the mesolithic Iberians as one the references for his MDLP 22 calculator my Siberian figures drop into half. The new cluster, Mesolithic-North-European seem to suck them right in.

    So do the calculators actually substitute mesolithic European (West Eurasian) alleles with Siberian for some technical reason or were the mesolithic Iberians actually pretty darn Siberian-like ?

    Here is the data:

    Code:
    Eurogenes 9 and 13
    
    Population	  
    South Asian	-    
    Caucasus	-    
    Southwest Asian	0.62%
    North Amerindian + Arctic	0.33%
    Siberian	7.62%
    Mediterranean	8.96%
    East Asian	-    
    West African	0.33%
    North European	82.15%
    
    Population	  
    North European	66.29%
    West African	0.11%
    Mediterranean	16.37%
    Northeast African	0.63%
    North Eurasian	6.03%
    South Asian	0.33%
    Southwest Asian	3.37%
    Pygmy	-    
    Caucasus	3.60%
    East Siberian	2.15%
    East Asian	-    
    Amerindian	0.27%
    West Central Asian	0.79%
    Code:
    Dodecad 9 and 12b
    
    Population	  
    Amerindian	0.79%
    East_Asian	-    
    African	-    
    Atlantic_Baltic	77.81%
    Australasian	0.30%
    Siberian	7.81%
    Caucasus_Gedrosia	9.88%
    Southern	3.12%
    South_Asian	0.29%
    
    Population	  
    Gedrosia	3.13%
    Siberian	6.54%
    Northwest_African	-    
    Southeast_Asian	-    
    Atlantic_Med	20.90%
    North_European	63.05%
    South_Asian	-    
    East_African	-    
    Southwest_Asian	1.68%
    East_Asian	0.62%
    Caucasus	4.08%
    Sub_Saharan	-
    Code:
    Population	  
    Pygmy	-    
    West-Asian	1.44%
    North-European-Mesolithic	16.66%
    Indo-Tibetan	-    
    Mesoamerican	-    
    Arctic-Amerind	0.06%
    South-America_Amerind	-    
    Indian	0.22%
    North-Siberean	1.60%
    Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic	18.46%
    Samoedic	0.47%
    Indo-Iranian	0.51%
    East-Siberean	1.20%
    North-East-European	58.10%
    South-African	-    
    North-Amerind	-    
    Sub-Saharian	-    
    East-South-Asian	-    
    Near_East	-    
    Melanesian	-    
    Paleo-Siberian	0.68%
    Austronesian	0.60%

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    Yes you bring up an excellent point and make some good observations about this. I have noticed the same thing happen with my own results. As I said in the other thread about Cavalli-Sforza's components.

    ''Hweinlant has made an excellent point and observation about the North-European-Mesolithic component absorbing Siberian like affinity in Europeans. I generally tend to score around 1.5-2% Siberian in most ADMIXTURE tests from Dienekes and Polako. My highest ever was 3% in Dodecad V3. Anyways I know these SIberian scores come from my paternal side grandmother who was Finnish as I have also had my father, mother and paternal grandfather tested and only my father and myself show any positive Siberian scores which we both seem to have inherited form her. Now on Vadim's World-22 analysis out Siberian scores pretty much disappear while we both get fairly high North-European-Mesolithic scores. It certainly seems that the North-European-Mesolithic component has absorbed our previous Siberian scores almost totally. This makes sense though given that we know the North-European-Mesolithic component is Asian shifted.''
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    Biggest mind twister here imo is that alleles that form the North-European-Mesolithic are infact Southwest-European-Mesolithic. They just happend to peak at Northern European modern populations. The actual living breathing mesolithic persons lived in totally opposite side of Europe than were the modern peak is.

    Do any of the Iberian members score a) North-European-Mesolithic at MDLP 22 calculator or b) Any Siberian-like component at any other calculator ?

    Question I have in mind atm is: Did these alleles "walk" from Iberia to North (as in did the mix originate there and later expanded to Northern Europe), or were these alleles present at very wide area at Eurasia and are now only to be found at North ?

    Following this thought it might be that actually the Siberians have these "old alleles" aswell and thus the calculators with no mesolithic-Iberian references predicts that the alleles belongs to them.

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    Lol at (s)Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hweinlant View Post
    Biggest mind twister here imo is that alleles that form the North-European-Mesolithic are infact Southwest-European-Mesolithic. They just happend to peak at Northern European modern populations. The actual living breathing mesolithic persons lived in totally opposite side of Europe than were the modern peak is.

    Do any of the Iberian members score a) North-European-Mesolithic at MDLP 22 calculator or b) Any Siberian-like component at any other calculator ?

    Question I have in mind atm is: Did these alleles "walk" from Iberia to North (as in did the mix originate there and later expanded to Northern Europe), or were these alleles present at very wide area at Eurasia and are now only to be found at North ?

    Following this thought it might be that actually the Siberians have these "old alleles" aswell and thus the calculators with no mesolithic-Iberian references predicts that the alleles belongs to them.
    They are not necessarily just Southwest-European-Mesolithic. This so called Northern-European-Mesolithic component was probably very prominent and common all over Europe during the Mesolithic period. We see that it peaks in the La Brana individuals but I am sure that the Gotland hunter-gatherers from the Baltic had a lot of it too.

    I would say that most likely these alleles were present all over Europe and into Siberia during the Mesolithic. Today they just happen to survive best in the far north where the ethnic groups such as the Saami and Finns have been less influenced by the Neolithic peoples who came to occupy the rest of Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    I would say that most likely these alleles were present all over Europe and into Siberia during the Mesolithic. Today they just happen to survive best in the far north where the ethnic groups such as the Saami and Finns have been less influenced by the Neolithic peoples who came to occupy the rest of Europe.
    I think there are two possible models for this.

    Model 1: The Narrow genetic homeland

    This model assumes that the "ancestral mix" which became the Meso-North-Euro originated somewhere near the French-Spanish border. Influences which made it, became from all over the place. This stable mix then spread via migrations towards north and even through Siberia all the way to Americas. This would mean that the timeframe is rather Late Paleolithic than Mesolithic. This model resembles the proposed Franco-Cantabrian refugium expansion model from Late Glacial Maximum. Circles represent drop-off-points for genes.

    It's pretty much the same that has been proposed for haplogroup R1b, before the age and spread models of the HG were brought closer to modern day (even to Bronze age lately).



    Model 2: Wide genetic homeland:

    This model assumes wide spread of allele-set where the Southwest-Europe is the last point of expansion. The red arrows represent the Neolithic east and west eurasian expansions. Wide-region-mesolithic alleles would only survive in remote corners of Eurasia. Basically in areas where neither cereal or rice farming was possible until recently or not at all.



    Imo the model 2 is more likely. If the model 2 is correct it will also have affect to ADMIXTURE interpretation. Siberian figures should not be considered as admixture but rather as shared co-ancestry. Not as Siberians moving to Europe and influencing the allready existing populations. This is really rather a chronology issue. Infact the neolithic influence should be seen as admixture, in traditional pov. Another point is that the ADMIXTURE and STRUCTURE alike seem to give ownership of these alleles to modern Siberians, which might indicate that they infact do have larger presence of these alleles, or that the sample-size (weight in algorithmic prediction) is heavily biased towards more Neolithic West and East Eurasians (example: Sardinians and Han-Chinese).
    Last edited by Hweinlant; 2012-09-21 at 22:22.

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    ^Personally I think that model 2 is much more likely. These alleles were probably very widespread during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic from Iberia across Europe and into Siberia. They happened to survive best in areas where farming was not possible or did not arrive until very late. In most areas of Europe this component was replaced by Neolithic farmers.

    Now the strange thing about this is why do Lithuanians have so little of this component when the east Baltic area is considered by many to be a ''refuge'' type area for old Mesolithic European genes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    Now the strange thing about this is why do Lithuanians have so little of this component when the east Baltic area is considered by many to be a ''refuge'' type area for old Mesolithic European genes?
    Imo there is something very strange in academic Lithuanian samples. They are from "one village in a small province" or something like that. When put into ADMIXTURE it's like comparing a family with a continent of people. Something like that (edit: Sardinian samples are like that too, not good).

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    ^I suppose that is a possibility. It would be nice to see the results from the MDLP World-22 calculator on GEDmatch for the Lithuanians here on these forums to see how they score for North-European-Mesolithic.

    I managed to find an Iberian's results who posts on these forums for the component we are talking about here. He scored only 1.71%.

    I just found another Iberian as well. Only 0.18%. So it seems clear this component is not strong in Iberia at all.
    Last edited by JAX; 2012-09-21 at 23:49.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    ^I suppose that is a possibility. It would be nice to see the results from the MDLP World-22 calculator on GEDmatch for the Lithuanians here on these forums to see how they score for North-European-Mesolithic.

    I managed to find an Iberian's results who posts on these forums for the component we are talking about here. He scored only 1.71%.
    Outside of Saamis and Finns, no europeans score high on this component...Estonians average 7%, Scandinavians about 10%

    PD : For example the spanish average (1.8%) is the same as that of Belarussians and higher than Ukranians, Russians, Slovenians..
    Last edited by Vetton; 2012-09-21 at 23:54.

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