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Thread: Crimean Tatars are not Turkic but an mixture of many settlement from Europe to Asia2735 days old

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    Default Crimean Tatars are not Turkic but an mixture of many settlement from Europe to Asia

    I like to discuss about the Crimean Tatars. I find the origins of Crimean Tatars complicated but interesting at the same time, there's a lot evidence that showed they were not Turkic and have incorporated so many different ethnicity. With all these history of ancient European settlements and colonies in Crimea there's just no way that the Crimean Tatars can be anywhere close to Turkic people. It's true that the average Crimean Tatar can easily pass for Russian, Greeks, and many European ethnicity. They are basically Turkcized European with some 19% Mongol genetic input.''


    History of Crimea

    " The earliest inhabitants of whom we have any authentic traces were the Cimmerians"

    " expelled by the Scythians during the 7th century BC. The inland regions were then inhabited by Scythians and the mountainous south coast by the remaining Cimmerians, who became known as the Tauri."

    " In the 5th century BC Greek colonists began to settle along the Black Sea coast."

    " During the AD 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries, Taurica was host to Roman legions and colonists in Charax, Crimea "

    " In the 13th century, the Republic of Genoa seized the settlements which their rivals, the Venetians, had built along the Crimean coast and established themselves "

    " The remnants of the Crimean Cumans survived in the Crimean mountains while most of the peninsula was resettled by the invading Mongols "


    INVASIONS AND OCCUPIED ( It doesn't mean most of them have settled )

    " Throughout the later centuries, Crimea was invaded or occupied successively by the Goths (AD 250), the Huns (376), the Bulgars (4th–8th century), the Khazars (8th century), the state of Kievan Rus' (10th–11th centuries), the Byzantine Empire (1016), the Kipchaks (the Kumans) (1050), and the Mongols (1237). "


    What this shows is that there was more European tribes who settled in Crimea, than it included other Iranic tribes, than Turkic and finally Mongols. There's evidence of Mongol genetic impact but I'm sure what other impact they have.





    This women looks like greek to me


    This women looks slavic


    This women can pass for Polish


    Crimean Tatars are European looking... no doubt.






    Elizabeth E Marchani1, W Scott Watkins2, Kazima Bulayeva3, Henry C Harpending1 and Lynn B Jorde2*

    Y-DNA of Crimeans Tatars

    I - 5%
    F (F*xH,I,J2) - 18%
    R1a1 - 32%
    R1a - 9%
    J2 - 14%
    E1b - 5%
    C3 - 9%
    O3 - 5%
    O (O*xO3) - 5%

    mtDNA of Crimean Tatars

    HV - 20%
    J - 10%
    K - 10%
    N - 10%
    T - 30%
    U1 - 5%
    U3 - 10%
    U4 - 5%

    Mongol influence is pretty clear on these Crimean Tatars.




    ---------- Post Merged at 05:40 ----------

    ORIGINS

    * the Tats (not to be confused with Tat people, living in the Caucasus region) who used to inhabit the mountainous Crimea before 1944 (about 55%),

    * the Yalıboyu who lived on the southern coast of the peninsula (about 30%),

    * the Noğay (not to be confused with Nogai people, living now in Southern Russia) – former inhabitants of the Crimean steppe (about 15%).


    " Historians suggest that the inhabitants of the mountainous parts of Crimea lying to the central and southern parts (the Tats), and those of the Southern coast of Crimea (the Yalıboyu) were the direct descendants of the Pontic Greeks, Armenians, Scythians, Ostrogoths (Crimean Goths) and Kipchaks along with the Cumans while the latest inhabitants of the northern steppe represent the descendants of the Nogai Horde of the Black Sea nominally subjects of the Crimean Khan.[13][14] It is largely assumed that the Tatarization process that mostly took place in the 16th century brought a sense of cultural unity through the blending of the Greeks, Armenians, Italians and the newly arrived Ottoman Turks of the southern coast, Goths of the central mountains, and Kipchak Tatars and Cumans of the plains and forming of the Crimean Tatar ethnic "

    Another theory suggests Crimean Tatars trace theirs origins to the waves of ancient people Scythians, Greeks, Goths, Italians and Armenians.[20] When the golden horde invaded Crimea in the 1230's. They then mixed with populations which had settled in Eastern Europe, including Crimea since the seventh century: Tatars, but also Mongols and other Turkic groups (Khazars, Petchenegs, and Kipchacks), as well as the ancient.[21]
    Last edited by ButlerKing; 2012-10-10 at 05:48.

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    I don't know the Crimean Tatars well, but if you mean if they are genetically close with other Turkic groups, then I can't answer that question. But if they speak a Turkic language, they're Turkic ethnolinguistically speaking; the same way that someone who speaks an Indo-European language is considered Indo-European, or someone who speaks an Austronesian language is considered Austronesian, etc. I'm talking about pre-modern ethnolinguistic identities here.
    Last edited by Multilingual; 2012-10-10 at 06:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multilingual View Post
    I don't know the Crimean Tatars well, but if you mean if they are genetically close with other Turkic groups, then I can't answer that question. But if they speak a Turkic language, they're Turkic ethnolinguistically speaking; the same way that someone who speaks an Indo-European language is considered Indo-European, or someone who speaks an Austronesian language is considered Austronesian, etc. I'm talking about pre-modern ethnolinguistic identities here.
    They adopted the Turkic language and culture but that doesn't make them Turkic. the thing is they only became completely Turkic in 16th century.

    The language they speak is actually similar to the Nogais which both are part of the Kypchap language however the Nogais language also has some mongolian loan words. " Birtalan, Á. (1992): On some Mongolian loanwords in Nogai. "

    Interestingly while Crimean Tatars has 19% Mongoloid paternal lineage with 0% Mongoloid maternal lineage the Nogais themselves have more mongoloid maternal lineage than mongoloid paternal lineage and they are more closer to Mongol descendants. Perhaps unlike Crimean Tatars, migration of both men and women


    Nogais have 19 - 25% mongoloid paternal DNA with 42% mongoloid maternal DNA. There also seem to be little South Asian admixture although it's properly from the Gypsies. The Nogais were slave raiders after all.

    Y-DNA of Nogais

    C3 - 13%
    O (O*xO3) - 6%
    D - 6%
    R1* - 25%
    R1a1 - 13%
    J2 - 14%
    I - 5%
    K (K*xL,O) - 20%


    mtDNA of Nogais

    B - 6%
    C - 9%
    D - 15%
    G - 3%
    HV - 27%
    K - 9%
    M - 6%
    T - 6%
    U2 - 3%
    U4 - 3%
    U5 - 3%
    Z - 9%

    Honestly.... there is no Nogais picture more perfect than these. I really shows the Mongoloid/Caucasoid admixture in their faces.




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    Turkics are not a genetic entity.

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    One who wants to know a little about Turkic people and their history must first read real historians too much instead of wiki written for propaganda by juniors.

    Too strange that you did not see the first sentence written in the page where you quoted from.

    "Crimean Tatars (sg. Qırımtatar, pl. Qırımtatarlar) or Crimeans (sg. Qırım, Qırımlı, pl. Qırımlar, Qırımlılar) are a Turkic ethnic group that originally resided in Crimea. "

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    "
    Today, more than 250,000 Crimean Tatars are living in the Crimea and another 250,000 are still in exile in Central Asia. There is an estimated 5 million people of Crimean origin living in Turkey, descendants of those who emigrated in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Smaller Crimean Tatar communities are also found in Romania, Poland, Finland, the United States, and Central Asia, especially Uzbekistan. "

    ---------- Post Merged at 14:53 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by adsız View Post
    One who wants to know a little about Turkic people and their history must first read real historians too much instead of wiki written for propaganda by juniors.

    Too strange that you did not see the first sentence written in the page where you quoted from.

    "Crimean Tatars (sg. Qırımtatar, pl. Qırımtatarlar) or Crimeans (sg. Qırım, Qırımlı, pl. Qırımlar, Qırımlılar) are a Turkic ethnic group that originally resided in Crimea. "
    Actually I'm not denying they are Turkic ethnic group today but they have an European origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ButlerKing View Post

    Actually I'm not denying they are Turkic ethnic group today but they have an European origin.
    Maybe some/most Europeans are in fact Central Asian originally migrated to The modern Europe and that is why they have mongoloid genes even a little ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adsız View Post
    Maybe some/most Europeans are in fact Central Asian originally migrated to The modern Europe and that is why they have mongoloid genes even a little ?
    Where the heck you got that from? if Europeans were originally Central Asian they would speak Iranic languages today.

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    Mongoloid > I meant all nations lived/living in the Central Asia.

    ---------- Post Merged at 15:39 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ButlerKing View Post
    Where the heck you got that from? if Europeans were originally Central Asian they would speak Iranic languages today.
    Iranic language ? Not necessarily..

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    I wonder if this kid is an descendant of an Mongoloid and Gypsy? ( let me make it clear) mtDNA U2 and M (Indian type) are found 6% in Nogais but are found frequently among some Gypsies subgroups or could it be that Caucasus people like Georgians and Chechen already have these DNA?



    ---------- Post Merged at 16:43 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by adsız View Post
    Mongoloid > I meant all nations lived/living in the Central Asia.

    ---------- Post Merged at 15:39 ----------

    Iranic language ? Not necessarily..
    There is no prove that Europeans originated from Central Asia. Although it's true that original inhabitants of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Karakalpakstan looked more like Europeans with blue eyes and blonde hair.
    Last edited by ButlerKing; 2012-10-10 at 16:54.

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