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Thread: Origin of the Gothic language616 days old

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    Possible "touching points" of Old Prussians and Goths.


    80-150/200 AD

    Eastwards from Persantė (Pasleka) and Alna's (Lyna) middle formed a wide uninhabited territory. This is explained by appearance of the " fear" zone between Balts and newly arrived Goths in the mid Vistula. This also shows relationships between Balts and Goths weren't friendly.

    200/250 AD

    Clear cultural continuity. However, a little bit changes directions if of cultural connections. Appears the second trading direction (apart from amber way to Roman provinces), the way to the Black sea previously discovered by Goths. The mid Vistula became the crossroad of these trading ways.

    450/475 - ~550 AD

    Researchers noticed that Prussian burials are spreading in south-western direction and reach lower Vistula. This is usually explained by Old Prussian expansion to previously deserted Gothic lands. Semba becomes periphery of Old Prussia. J. Okulisz has counted that 43 burials are deserted in Sembia. Similar situation in Western Lithuania, lower Nemunas. Emigration to the coast of Vistula Lagoon could explain situation in Semba. But it gets very unclear if we compare burials of Sembian peninsula and Vistula Lagoon. The richness of Vistula Lagoon (Notanga and Warmia) burials is obvious without any bigger calculations, many burials with atypical shrouds to Balts are found. Sembian burials have only few rich burials.
    Large archeological layer of Wielbark culture by IV th c. got almost empty, only few burials of IV th c. are known.
    Interesting that in this deserted place many treasures of golden jewelry and IV-V th c. Roman and Byzantyne coins are found. Judging by the time of coining, all treasures were buried at the same time - in 450-475. The time when Attila's state fell. Perhaps after these events new inhabitants arrived from lower Vistula to the southern land of West-Southern Balts and brought these treasures.
    We can make a conclusion that not Balts expanded southwards, but newly arrived people from Central Europe inhabited middle Vistula and later some of them mixed with the old inhabitants of Semba. Their ethnic dependency is not clear. Maybe they were Balts who participated in campaigs of the Great Migration, maybe Goths. We can also remember the Old Prussian legend about Widewuto and Bruteno written in Prussian chronicles. However it was, the new people soon mixed with the old inhabitants and later bigger cultural differences in Western Baltic culture are not noticed.
    Quotes from the article by Valdemaras Šimėnas
    Prūsų kilmės beieškant. Prūsų gentys I m. e. tūkstantmečio pradžioje ir viduryje - aistiškasis periodas (I-VII a.), Baltų archeologija, 1998, nr. 1-2 (11-12), p. 2-16.

    Obviously in third "point" the talk goes about Balts (as there is no large Gothic or Slavic substratum in Old Prussian), but I thought these returning Balts could have brought some loanwords. The second "point" again shows possibility of un-direct contacts, that is, via trading.

    by D.H.Green It is clear that Gothic loanwords into Slavonic are much more frequent than into Baltic and cover more varied range.
    There are known only 2000 Old Prussian words (including those reconstruced from Germanized placenames). Even less words of Yotvingian. Well, there is Sudovian book that includes a small dictionary but as the article says it deals with Sudovians relocated in Sembia. So, known Western Baltic lexicon compared to any Slavic language is very small.
    Last edited by cinnamona; 2012-11-16 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnamona View Post
    Possible "touching points" of Old Prussians and Goths.




    Quotes from the article by Valdemaras Šimėnas
    Prūsų kilmės beieškant. Prūsų gentys I m. e. tūkstantmečio pradžioje ir viduryje - aistiškasis periodas (I-VII a.), Baltų archeologija, 1998, nr. 1-2 (11-12), p. 2-16.

    Obviously in third "point" the talk goes about Balts (as there is no large Gothic or Slavic substratum in Old Prussian), but I thought these returning Balts could have brought some loanwords. The second "point" again shows possibility of un-direct contacts, that is, via trading.


    There are known only 2000 Old Prussian words (including those reconstruced from Germanized placenames). Even less words of Yotvingian. Well, there is Sudovian book that includes a small dictionary but as the article says it deals with Sudovians relocated in Sembia. So, known Western Baltic lexicon compared to any Slavic language is very small.
    in regards to Balts, there is this link below which deals with language and gentics
    http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm

    Historians say that the goths absobed into their armies and populace around 200AD, the heruli, Venedi and Aestii people, then marched to the black sea.
    The Goths seemed to always absorb different tribes,.......I assume they did not have the numbers for invasion and that was the reason.
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    Polako has a interesting blog entry about Goths:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/1...an-steppe.html

    The language of Goths was discussed here:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post637150

    It was also demonstrated by archeologists and historians that:
    there is no Gothic history before the third century. The Goths are a product of the Roman frontier

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post648362

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post664206

    Genetics and anthropology also do not support Goths from Poland theory:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...altic-Seems-so


    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post648887

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post649995

    Also recent IBD studies show that there is no link between Spain and Italy where Goths settled and Poland. Goths are not related to Poland and Baltic area.
    Weak connections between Spain and Northern Europe is interpreted as absence of large Germanic migrations but rather a movement of small military groups there:
    Gothic “migrations" may have been takeovers by small military groups of extant populations
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.3815
    This agrees with Kulikowski’s theory that Goths were just the military groups of Germans who gathered near the Roman frontier, and then moved into the Balkans via routes south of the Carpathians. They left Balkans without making any significant impact there and settled in Spain and Italy. Those interested in Goths should really look at Spain and Italy to learn about their heritage. Nothing really links them to Poland except some Nazi propaganda.
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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    there is no Gothic history before the third century. The Goths are a product of the Roman frontier
    I was interested in the origin of Gothic language. How the Gothic language could have been a product of Romans?

    ---------- Post Merged at 23:42 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    So the linguistic conclusion is Northern Europe, but the population history before texts of Roman historians is unknown.
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    You are so biased it is incredible Eastpole. No shallow genetic studies prove anything when we have rich historical sources and gothic texts and although controversial, have cultures in eastern europe that correspond well to sources like Chernyakhov.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Also recent IBD studies show that there is no link between Spain and Italy where Goths settled and Poland. Goths are not related to Poland and Baltic area.
    If anything goths should be related to swedes.


    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Weak connections between Spain and Northern Europe is interpreted as absence of large Germanic migrations but rather a movement of small military groups there:
    Have anyone suggest otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    This agrees with Kulikowski’s theory that Goths were just the military groups of Germans who gathered near the Roman frontier, and then moved into the Balkans via routes south of the Carpathians. They left Balkans without making any significant impact there and settled in Spain and Italy.
    A theory I don't agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Those interested in Goths should really look at Spain and Italy to learn about their heritage. Nothing really links them to Poland except some Nazi propaganda.
    Very much links them to Poland. Has nothing to do with any nazi propaganda.

    Jaska mentioned that early slavic might had gothic influences. That's very interesting I think.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...anguage-dating

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    (...) although controversial, have cultures in eastern europe that correspond well to sources like Chernyakhov.
    Chernyakhov culture was located at the Roman frontier:



    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Sântana de Mureș–Chernyakhov culture[1][2][3] is an archaeological culture that flourished between the 2nd and 5th centuries AD in a wide area of Eastern Europe, specifically in what today constitutes Ukraine, Romania, Moldova, and parts of Belarus. The culture probably corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium as described by Jordanes in his work Getica, but it is nonetheless the result of a poly-ethnic cultural mélange of the Gothic, Getae-Dacian (including Romanised Daco-Romans), Sarmatian and Slavic populations of the area.[4][5]

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Polako has a interesting blog entry about Goths:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/1...an-steppe.html

    The language of Goths was discussed here:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post637150

    It was also demonstrated by archeologists and historians that:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post648362

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post664206

    Genetics and anthropology also do not support Goths from Poland theory:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...altic-Seems-so


    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post648887

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...l=1#post649995

    Also recent IBD studies show that there is no link between Spain and Italy where Goths settled and Poland. Goths are not related to Poland and Baltic area.
    Weak connections between Spain and Northern Europe is interpreted as absence of large Germanic migrations but rather a movement of small military groups there:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.3815
    This agrees with Kulikowski’s theory that Goths were just the military groups of Germans who gathered near the Roman frontier, and then moved into the Balkans via routes south of the Carpathians. They left Balkans without making any significant impact there and settled in Spain and Italy. Those interested in Goths should really look at Spain and Italy to learn about their heritage. Nothing really links them to Poland except some Nazi propaganda.
    first of all, I am not interested on what the goths did or where they went after residing on the north side of the black-sea...my remarks where based on their homeland.

    The goth language to me is similar to west-baltic language, and I agree with the polish historian Jan Czarnecki in his book
    The Goths in ancient Poland:a study on the historical geography of the Oder-Vistula region during the first two centuries of our era

    I agree with Kulikowski in only that Jordanes was a bias and corrupt historian and was a goth born in pannonia. ALL his works should be thrown out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy
    The goth language to me is similar to west-baltic language
    What do you mean "similar"?
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    Originally Posted by Lemmy
    The goth language to me is similar to west-baltic language
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    What do you mean "similar"?


    Try to learn to use quotations. You, the master of propaganda.
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    There are places in Sweden called Vastergotland and Ostergotland and the people call themselves Geats/Gotar, fully in support of Jordanes' claim of Goths migrated from "Scandza". Basically Goths were early Swedish colonists who wanted better farm land and went to pursue it in the south, that's pretty clear to me.

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