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Thread: Discussion on Sindh and Gujarat : Split/MOD2166 days old

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    A most interesting fact is that, Muhammad Mahabat Khanji III Rasul Khanji (2 August 1900 - 7 November 1959) the 10th and last effective princely ruler of the famous ''Babi'' Nawabs of Junagadh dynasty had made a decision to accede Junagadh to the Dominion of Pakistan on 14th September 1947 (formally accepted by Quaid-i-Azam of Pakistan, 15th September 1947) as he strongly felt that the parts of Gujarat under Muslim self-autonomy should merge with Pakistan, and one of his strong arguments was exactly that Kathiawar was especially close to Karachi by virtue of the maritime route.



    Prior to partition, Kathiawar, Kutch and most of North and east Gujarat had been split into several princely states which were effectively under local self-rule of the Nawabs for well over 200 years whereas southern Gujarat (Surat, Bharuch, Ahmedabad, Panchmahal, Kheda etc) were directly governed by the British...not surprising because as I said before, the British Bombay Presidency made their earliest factory base in Surat with the permission of the Mughals.

    During Muhammad Mahabat Khanji III Rasul Khanji's reign, the British-educated Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto of Sindh (of the legendary Bhuttos) had been promoted to the official status of Diwan of Junagadh, in fact the two enjoyed quite a close mutual relationship (as too their love of dogs) so much so that when the Indian troops forcibly invaded and occupied Junagadh in order to seize the state, both Mahabat Khanji and Bhutto went into exile in Pakistan. Consequently, the Nawab's entire family fled to Karachi and have since settled there as the state eventually passed a public referendum where the majority Hindu citizens of Junagadh voted in political favour of ''India'' and the state then issued a formal decree for Junagadh to be merged with ''Saurashtra''. Other descendants of the original Babi dynasty are still found in Kathiawar and maintain close links with their relatives in Pakistan.

    Mahabat Khanji's eldest son, Nawab Muhammad Dilawar Khanji, claimed to be the rightful Nawab of Junagadh in absentia (Head of the Royal House of Junagadh, 7th November 1959 - officially recognised by the Government of Pakistan) even though the title held no valid merit within Gujarat itself. He was promoted to 14th governor of Sindh.



    Dilwar Kahnji's eldest son, 11th Nawab Muhammad Jahangir Khanji Bahadur Babi, who was born in Karachi, was promoted to ''Senior Adviser on Cultural Heritage and Archaeology to the Chief Minister of Sindh'' and succeeded on the death of his father, as Head of the Royal House of Junagadh, 30th August 1989 (officially recognised by the Government of Pakistan). Not too long a while back, he was promoted to the position of Federal minister of the Junagadh House in Islamabad, and has been the most outspoken critic of the Indian government but is still optimistically hopeful that Junagadh will be part of Pakistan one day.



    Official website - "Site is launched by His Highness Nawab Muhammad Jahangir Khanji Ruler of the Junagadh State": http://www.junagadhstate.org/home.html

    A nawab’s grandson retraces roots

    As India and Pakistan cautiously tread the path of friendship, the grandson of the erstwhile ruler of Junagadh is hopeful of finding his roots in the ‘‘kingdom’’ he has heard so much of but never seen.

    ‘‘My wish is to visit Junagadh and meet the people of the state which my forefathers ruled,’’ said Jahangir Khan, the grandson of Mahabat Khan III, the last Nawab of Junagadh.

    Khan said though his forefathers of the Babi dynasty had been rulers, he would like to come back as a messenger of peace. ‘‘I wish there’s brotherhood between Muslims and Hindus like the pre-partition days,’’ he said in a telephonic conversation from Karachi. Mahabat Khan III was popular among Muslims and Hindus alike and was known as a generous ruler.
    http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/39596/

    Nawab of Junagarh says …: Pakistan is incomplete without some states

    Pakistan Jan 15, 2012

    LAHORE, Jan 15 Nawab of Junagarh Muhammad Jehangir Khanji has said Pakistan is incomplete without Junagarh, Manawador and Kashmir.

    Speaking at a special session on legal status of Indian occupation of Junagrh and other Muslim states here at the Aiwan-i-Karkunan-i-Tehreek-i-Pakistan on Friday, he said the British rulers had given the Indian states the right to join India or Pakistan or remain independent at the time of independence.

    The largest state, Hyderabad decided to remain independent while his grandfather Nawab Mahabat Khanji signed an agreement for merger of the state with Pakistan on Sept 15, 1947 with Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Indian forces, however, took over the state on Nov 9, he said.

    He said a majority of the people who strengthened the economy of Pakistan belonged to Junagarh. The economic experts of the state played a significant role in strengthening the country`s foundation, he said. He said his ancestors wanted to see Pakistan a prosperous country and sacrificed everything for it.

    Nazaria-i-Pakistan Trust chairman Majid Nizami said Pakistan had not only faced the tragedy of forcible occupation of Junagarh, Hyderabad and Manavador but had also forgotten Kashmir. He said he expected that President Asif Ali Zardari would tell India to hand over Kashmir, Junagarh and Manavador to Pakistan or get ready for an atomic war.

    He said Pakistan should prefer going to war with India on water issue instead of dying of hunger and thirst.NPT vice-chairman Prof Dr Rafiq Ahmad said the agenda of division of India was incomplete because the Muslims had not been given the right to rule the areas in which they were in majority. India had not only occupied the states which opted for joining Pakistan, but was also involved in terrorist activities in Balochistan, he alleged.

    India wanted to make Pakistan its part in accordance with the manifestos of Congress and BJP, he said, but no Pakistani political party had expressed such intentions.

    Sahibzada Sultan Ahmad Ali said Junagarh should not only be included in the map of disputed areas, but renewed efforts should be made for its affiliation with Pakistan.

    A resolution calling for setting up of Junagarh House at Islamabad and appointment of Nawab Muhammad Jehangir Khanji as federal minister was adopted at the meeting.
    http://archives.dawn.com/archives/127874

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    Quote Originally Posted by saran View Post
    Some linguists put them in separate sub-groups
    I would say that most Gujarati Muslims (in the diaspora at least) are familiar with Kutchi and therefore by default Sindhi, so even if some linguists put Gujarati and Sindhi in ''separate sub-groups'' as you said, we are familiar enough with Kutchi speakers because a good proportion of Gujarati Muslims are in fact, Kutchi, and these just so happen to be the million-strong Memoni ''business classes'' abroad whom we tend to marry as they are of a similar socioeconomic status (my dad had to learn at least some basic Kutchi because the overwhelming majority of his business partners and clients tended to be Kutchi Memons especially in SA). Gujarati might be the official state language of Gujarat, but many Muslims from there are fluent in both Urdu and Gujarati, and have a familiar understanding of Kutchi. Sindhi is still widely spoken in Kathiawar among the Muslims, so the ''separation'' is only on linguistic lines, because ethno-linguistic Sindhs in Gujarat still identify culturally with their counterparts in Pakistan. Speaking for myself, Urdu is the lingua franca which is spoken in the home, and Gujarati is a secondary language, but Kutchi and Memoni are more familiar to me than Punjabi. Some of my closest friends and relatives are Punjabi but I have a much harder time understanding Punjabi or any other Indian language as when compared to Kutchi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xklassicx View Post
    ...



    I would say that most Gujarati Muslims (in the diaspora at least) are familiar with Kutchi and therefore by default Sindhi, so even if some linguists put Gujarati and Sindhi in ''separate sub-groups'' as you said, we are familiar enough with Kutchi speakers because a good proportion of Gujarati Muslims are in fact, Kutchi, and these just so happen to be the million-strong Memoni ''business classes'' abroad whom we tend to marry as they are of a similar socioeconomic status (my dad had to learn at least some basic Kutchi because the overwhelming majority of his business partners and clients tended to be Kutchi Memons especially in SA). Gujarati might be the official state language of Gujarat, but many Muslims from there are fluent in both Urdu and Gujarati, and have a familiar understanding of Kutchi. Sindhi is still widely spoken in Kathiawar among the Muslims, so the ''separation'' is only on linguistic lines, because ethno-linguistic Sindhs in Gujarat still identify culturally with their counterparts in Pakistan. Speaking for myself, Urdu is the lingua franca which is spoken in the home, and Gujarati is a secondary language, but Kutchi and Memoni are more familiar to me than Punjabi. Some of my closest friends and relatives are Punjabi but I have a much harder time understanding Punjabi or any other Indian language as when compared to Kutchi.
    True, as we can't discount the impact of vocabulary - Hindu and Urdu are the same language but can be made mutually difficult to understand (though not completely unintelligible) by vocabulary. On the flip side, different languages can become quite comprehensible if their vocabulary overlaps.

    Punjabi branched out from Malwi and Hindi in the 1500s or later; for a person speaking Hindi it may a take a month so of living among Punjabies to understand it reasonably well.

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    Some kutchis:


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    Some kutchis:

    Most of them dont look sindhi, will try and get a few pictures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinb View Post
    Some kutchis. Most of them dont look sindhi, will try and get a few pictures
    I never once made the grandiose proposition that ''most Kutchis look Sindhi'' for you to make that off-the-cuff remark so where did that little outburst come from, ashwin? Moreover I implore you to go ahead since you are perfectly welcome to post however many (selective) images of Kutchis that you want if that so makes you feel better (because honestly I can pull out just as many if not more of excessively swarthy, weddoid looking Brahmins and argue in a similar vein that those are the real Brahmins, then we can degenerate into an entertainingly witty ''who can p*ss farthest'' slangmatch) but you're the one fooling yourself because even Pakistani Sindhis wholeheartedly acknowledge that there is a blood-cultural brotherhood between ethno-linguistic Sindhis on both sides of the border ...funny how non-Sindhis attempt to create rifts. Not only Kutchis, but Kathiawar Memons (who are almost exclusively Muslim) have cultural links with Sindh hence the illustrious Bantva and Dhoraji Jamats in Karachi and most of them were pro-Pakistan because (aside from the fight for real Independance) they sought a return to their original homeland. Today, there are 16, 000 Kathiawar Memons in South Africa alone (among a community whom Mahatma Gandhi was hired to be a lawyer before his eminent rise as 'Father of a Nation'.

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/150931/k...the-forgotten/

    They called themselves the “forgotten Sindhis”. Before the sub-continent’s independence, Katchis had come to Karachi in hordes just to balance out the Hindu population in the city. Later, they came on the invitation of Sir Abdullah Haroon and GM Syed on the eve of Karachi Port’s construction. Since most of them were skilled in construction trades, including masonry, carpentry and iron mongering, they played a significant part in the construction of almost all the now historical buildings of Karachi, including the Sindh Assembly Building. Blacksmiths are called lohars in Sindhi while carpenters are called wadhas, thus they named the jamaatkhana ‘Lohar-wadha’.
    Pakistani Sindhis and Kutchi/Gujarati Memons from India get together and celebrate Sindhi Topi Day in the USA:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC6-z...PSDUZw&index=2

    I'm familiar with Sindhi Hindus in India anyway because the Sindhi Samaj Gujrat Rajya is in Sindhi Colony in Sardarnagar, Ahmedabad (where tens of thousands of refugee camps were set up for them) however there has always been a presence of Sindhis in Gujarat (aamils - academic Advanis and Jethmalanis, and bhaibands - Lohanas) from Karachi, Sukkur, Hyderabad, Mirpukhas who not only contributed to the cultural enrichment of Ahmedabad but made their bounty in Surat and Mumbai (the economic hearts of India) during British Raj; post-partition the Ulhasnagar Sindhi colony was established at Thane and now good numbers from the diaspora have second, or third homes in Mumbai. We had a great many Sindhi neighbours back in Africa where my dad was born, and here too as they were historically famous for their mercantile activities, more than anything else. In fact, Gandhiji requested His Highness Maharao Shri Vijayrajji Khengarji Jadeja (Maharaja of Kutch) who donated 15,000 acres of land (on which Adipur and Gandhidham were built for the huge influx and rehabilitation of Sindhi refugees post-partition whom were of the firm conviction that the climate of Kutch resembled Sindh so perhaps you could take up that argument with them).

    As an aside, here in the Midlands, I am intimately familiar with thousands of Pakistani Sindhis and Gujarati Kutchi Muslims (whom often have a ''Balochified'' look much like the pics enkidu posts) because (we, Gujarati Muslims go to the same schools, colleges and mosques and to the same host Islamic functions/conventions tending to congregate where these groups are especially when it comes to neighbourhood locales; so rather close to them anyways, or at least much more close to them than any other ethnic groups from India thanks to the links we have with Karachi however, there aren't great numbers of Sindhi Hindus here (most of them are concentrated in London, and The Sindhi Association of UK (SAUK) is based in Middlesex). Here in the UK, Gujarati Muslims act more like intermediaries between Indians and Pakistanis, if that makes sense - if it wasn't for our connection with Pakistanis, the Gujarati Hindus and much smaller numbers of other Indian Hindus would want nothing at all to do with Pakistan.

    In case you failed to miss it during your stroll through Kutch tours, allow me to introduce you to the famous Indian Institute of Sindhology:

    Indian Institute of Sindhology, Adipur-Gandhidham (Kutch) is the premier institute in India for the preservation of Sindhi culture. From its inception, it has conceived the idea of developing itself into a Cultural University. For giving a proper shape to the idea, several symposia were held with the active participation of a number of well known scholars, writers and educationists of Sindhi Language.


    As per our understanding, 'Sindhyat' pertains to the distinct characteristics of Sindhi community which distinguish it from other communities, and give it a particular identity. Thus 'Punjabiat' and 'Kashmiriat' are the cultural identities of Punjabis and Kashmiris, who too are striving hard to preserve them.

    What are the distinct cultural traits which are to be maintained for the total development of Sindhi personality? The mind of a Sindhi has been moulded by the Sufi Poetry of Shah-Sachal-Sami which contain the intrinsic essence of human wisdom. A Sindhi Firmly believes in Universal Brotherhood. He abhors violence, shirks the caste taboos, and possesses a sweet refined temperament. Possessing these cultural gifts in ample measure inherited from his forefathers, a Sindhi today finds himself equally at home in Hongkong and Honolulu.

    To preserve our own cultural heritage or "Sindhyat", a group of writers, artists and scholars met at Pune on 10th October 1989, and decided to establish Indian institute of Sindhology at Adipur. This Institute which startd functioning from December 1990 has now spread its wings far and wide. It is doing excellent work for preservation and promotion of Sindhi language, literature, art and culture. It is now being upgraded into a Sindhi Cultural University named "Bharati Sindhu Vidhyapeeth" on 30 acres of land acquired at Gandhidham in Kutch. It is hometown of Sindhis, who settled here after partition of the country. Maharaja of Kutch on advice of Gandhiji, gave 15000 acres of land to Bhai Pratab, who founded Sindhu Resettlement Corporation to rehabilitate Sindhi Hindus uprooted from their motherland.
    Trustees:

    Mr. Hari R. Meraney:


    Mr. Sahib Bijani


    Dadi Nirmala Gajwani:


    Prof. Pritam Varyani:


    Mr. Lakhmi Khilani:


    Dr. Ram Buxani:


    http://www.sindhology.org/sindhiyat.asp

    Oh look, a random image (just as you do) of some Hindu Sindhis who could not only pass for Kutchis but other ethnic Gujaratis - so just where did that overlap come from?:



    DR. Choithram Gidhwani, The ''Pride of Sindhi'' Community: freedom fighter, opponent of partition, Champion of Refugees, Roaring Lion of Sindh, ...Sindh jo gajandar Sher:



    The late Maharashtra Congress spokesman, Kanhaiyalal Gidwani, main accused in the Adarsh society scam:



    Harish Dubey (Daryanani) General Secretary of UFSAPI:



    Maya Kodnani (ex-MLA of Gujarat Legislative Assembly and lynchpin behind the violence of the post-Godhra riots) who was found guilty and sentenced to 28 years in prison for her demonic role in handing out swords to right-wing rioters exhorting them to massacre Muslims:



    Ram Jethmalani Minister of Law and Justice for Rajasthan (born in Shikharpur Sindh in undivided India but now resides in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh); practitioner of polygamy who has TWO wives:




    Delegates at 18th International Sindhi Sammelan 2011 - India, Gujarat, Ahmedabad:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L96SRqjr4sc

    Tv9 Gujarat - Sindhi people celebrating Chetichand in Ahmedabad:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TbUOriqtY

    World Sindhi Convention in Ahmedabad:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYuf0wErbGc

    Dada JP Vaswani:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7D70D_xNlk

    ^They hardly stick out as foreigners in south Gujarat where I'm from (let alone Kutch)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by xklassicx
    because honestly I can pull out just as many if not more of excessively swarthy, weddoid looking Brahmins and argue in a similar vein that those are the real Brahmins, then we can degenerate into an entertainingly witty ''who can p*ss farthest'' slangmatch.
    Ashwinb made a thread about weddoid looking Brahmins, he also made a post against caste endogamy.

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    Relax, XKlassicX....! It is not clear what Ashwin was doing, his post looked ambiguous, I think he left it mid-way, and will provide a clarification later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fact-Finder View Post
    It's like using Leonardo Dicaprio to play Rambo or something.

    http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/...0.gif~original

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    Quote Originally Posted by xklassicx View Post
    Moreover I implore you to go ahead since you are perfectly welcome to post however many (selective) images of Kutchis that you want if that so makes you feel better (because honestly I can pull out just as many if not more of excessively swarthy, weddoid looking Brahmins and argue in a similar vein that those are the real Brahmins, then we can degenerate into an entertainingly witty ''who can p*ss farthest'' slangmatch) but you're the one fooling yourself because even Pakistani Sindhis wholeheartedly acknowledge that there is a blood-cultural brotherhood between ethno-linguistic Sindhis on both sides of the border ...funny how non-Sindhis attempt to create rifts. Not only Kutchis, but Kathiawar Memons (who are almost exclusively Muslim) have cultural links with Sindh hence the illustrious Bantva and Dhoraji Jamats in Karachi and most of them were pro-Pakistan because (aside from the fight for real Independance) they sought a return to their original homeland. Today, there are 16, 000 Kathiawar Memons in South Africa alone (among a community whom Mahatma Gandhi was hired to be a lawyer before his eminent rise as 'Father of a Nation'.

    ^They hardly stick out as foreigners in south Gujarat where I'm from (let alone Kutch)...
    For god's sake there are hindu communities in kutch, in almost every post you seem to give examples of kutchi and sindhi uslims.
    The picture I've posted is of a few kutchi jains,and well most of gujaratis look pretty much like those in them,whether jains or vaishnavs or patels. They re absolutely not cherry picked, and we dont really care if you call us swarthy looking or whatsoever.

    My apologies for not stating my point previously, very few communities in Kutch mixed with immigrants from Sindh(after the muslim invasion of Sindh). It's probably only a few like the Bhatias or Lohanas, that is pretty much clear from phenotypes you can see in the area.
    And I have no interest in "creating a rift" or whatsoever.
    Last edited by ashwinb; 2013-01-16 at 17:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinb View Post
    For god's sake there are hindu communities in kutch, in almost every post you seem to give examples of kutchi and sindhi uslims. The picture I've posted is of a few kutchi jains,and well most of gujaratis look pretty much like those in them, whether jains or vaishnavs or patels.
    What precisely does ''Gujarati phenotypes'' have to do with the theme of this thread about Sindhis, and how exactly does it pertain to the topic that was being discussed? You're clearly a rabblerouser who's trying to derail the thread, and the fact that you posted the same bait twice on the ''Sindh and Gujarat'' one shows it. You also have no clue what you're talking about because you're underestimating the phenotype variation among us (posted tons of 'Patels' on here who have family back in India and they look nothing like your random image of Kutchi Jains, and most people here agree with me saying they must have come from outside, lol). I don't have time at the moment to prove you wrong because I'm off to the gym, but if you were interested you could have kindly just PMed me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwin
    My apologies for not stating my point previously, very few communities in Kutch mixed with immigrants from Sindh (after the muslim invasion of Sindh). It's probably only a few like the Bhatias or Lohanas, that is pretty much clear from phenotypes you can see in the area. And I have no interest in "creating a rift" or whatsoever.
    Apologies accepted, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about, and I doubt you've seen ''most Kutchis'' or had the luxury to survey all the phenotypes in the area. You're pretty much talking out of your lying ass right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xklassicx View Post
    What precisely does ''Gujarati phenotypes'' have to do with the theme of this thread about Sindhis,
    It's high time some one makes a separate thread on Gujarati It should preferably include of course the full scope of their phenorange.
    Last edited by oditous; 2013-01-16 at 17:44.

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